I’m sorry I’d missed your reply earlier. Thanks for posting that.

You may find this interesting:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/ian-bell/making-a-mountain-out-of-mohammed-1.919464

even if it only for the awful headline.

The same as most other people in the world, except for those who really are inordinately fixated on what they believe to be the bureaucratic dictates of their racial/ethnic, national, regional, religious, denominational, class or professional identity.

As for Muslims/Islam in general, they have different sects and individual & group-based interpretations of their religion just like most other major faiths in the world, and it goes well beyond the Shia/Sunni divide.

Just because the Wahhabi/Salafi, and to some extent Deobandi types, with their historical ideological predecessors in the Naqshbandis (in India, anyway) and other contemporary and historical groups with a similar interpretation of Islam have been/currently are problematic, it doesn’t mean that they should necessarily be taken as representative of “the average Muslim” or be assumed to reflect the definitive beliefs and attitudes of the majority of ordinary Muslims. As with most things, it depends on the specific location, the specific region of origin, the specific individual, and even the specific point in history.

No more than one should ignore the very large number of sects and interpretations within Christianity today and historically, or take the actions of European colonialists (including the British during the Victorian era in particular) who believed they had a God-given divine right to forcibly impose their rule on the rest of the non-Christian human race by any means necessary, or many Christian members of the Confederacy in mid-19th century America who believed they had a God-given right to own slaves, or the modern-day “Christian” KKK and St George’s flag-waving BNP, to represent Christianity and Christians as a whole, regardless of what they may claim.

(I know that you’re already aware of this, Douglas; my remarks are for the benefit of the wider audience).

The moral of the story is that, fundamentally, people are just people at the end of the day, and our common humanity should come first and foremost. Which, as those familiar with the matter will already know, is what Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, his family, their message, their supporters, and their particular ideological Sufi predecessors are all about.

As were Bulleh Shah, Mian Mir, Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, Baba Farid, Rumi, Saadi, Hafez, Omar Khayyam, and numerous other influential historical Muslim figures in India and Iran, for example…..and if anyone reading this doesn’t have a clue who I’m talking about but claims to have an accurate understanding of Muslims and Islamic history, coupled with apocalyptic warnings about Muslims’ alleged “incompatibility” with modern life and universally-acknowledge civilised, humanitarian values…well, I guess you have some more research to do.

Hmm…

However, people have different composite aspects to their identities (which become dominant — or not, as the case may be — depending on the specific situation) and Muslims in and from many parts of the world where there is a minority or indeed majority of Muslims are no different. It’s been that way for a very long time.

Dunno.

I genuinely think that identity is overplayed, especially around here. I can, for instance, agree with you, without having to apply an identity filter before discussing stuff with you.

Or disagee with you, whatever.

It doesn’t make you right or me wrong.

That is, perhaps, the point?

Yes I think Soru is right.

As for “seeing oneself essentially as Muslim”, well I’m not a Muslim myself and as far as I know neither is Qidniz, so we’re not really in a position to speak directly for members of that faith.

However, people have different composite aspects to their identities (which become dominant — or not, as the case may be — depending on the specific situation) and Muslims in and from many parts of the world where there is a minority or indeed majority of Muslims are no different. It’s been that way for a very long time.

Thanks for that.

I’d like to take a position, is that right, on what soru had to say too?

I’d have thought being a Muslim, seeing yourself essentially that way, would fade a bit as time goes by.

I, for instance, have never met anyone that sees themselves as a Huguenot or the like? Perhaps you could enlighten me?

I suggest you do some research on the history of Islam in general and Sufism specifically in both the Indian subcontinent

In fact, Soso, since you appear to be a proponent of the notion of “Islam is Islam and the West is the West, and never the twain shall meet”, it would probably also be a great idea for you to read White Mughals by William Dalrymple.

Since it’s an exhaustively-researched historical non-fiction book describing the experiences of various real-life Western residents in India, predominantly British and to a lesser extent also people from mainland Europe and even America, at a time when the Muslim influence in the areas of the subcontinent discussed was dominant, I think you’ll find it very enlightening reading.

Summary and reviews here: http://www.amazon.com/White-Mughals-Betrayal-Eighteenth-Century-India/dp/014200412X

and here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Mughals-Betrayal-Eighteenth-century-India/dp/0006550967

1) Britain is never going to become a ‘Muslim-majority’ state. Soru’s explanation in #28 is pretty accurate.

2) Islam is not a homogenous, monolithic religion, as I mentioned earlier — certainly not where the Indian subcontinent is concerned (and people with roots in that region who now live overseas). To a great extent this also applies to the history of Islam in neighbouring Iran/Persia, irrespective of the efforts of the modern-day religious orthodoxy there. Your objections about its “incompatibility” with various “western enlightenment values” could just as easily apply to Christianity if one was similarly going to make false, generalised assumptions about that religion and its adherents. And since you’ve mentioned Pakistan, perhaps you didn’t notice the defiant public protests in the country’s Punjab and Sindh provinces against the Taliban earlier this year — both regions of Pakistan where Sufism has historically been extremely influential amongst the masses.

3) Finally, rather than ranting at me, I suggest you do some research on the history of Islam in general and Sufism specifically in both the Indian subcontinent and Iran; you should also read through those links I supplied above; and most of all, if you agree that it’s a good move to base one’s opinions on direct first-hand experience, I suggest you book a ticket for one of Rahat’s concerts next month.

Once you’ve done all that, you’ll be in a genuine position to get back to the rest of us and discuss this matter properly.

Qidniz has obviously already kindly done the honours with translating Rahat’s song. Regarding the “qawwali” by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan — the lyrics are basically about Heer & Ranjha, the most well-known Indian equivalent of the Romeo & Juliet story. The song is in the first-person as though Heer was singing it about her lover Ranjha. However, it’s simultanously about a lot more than that too.

A full English translation of the lyrics can be found here: http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/sweets/poetry4/jogee.htm

As you can see, it’s quite passionate stuff, and is also a forceful condemnation of false piety and an adherence to empty religious ritualism and orthodoxy.

The lyrics are attributed to the late 17th/early 18th century Sufi Bulleh Shah who you may have noticed me mention a few times previously on PP. Wikipedia has a summary of his life and message: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulleh_Shah

Thanks for the clarification — you’re right, of course. I was referring more to the general style of the music rather than the lyrics. Getting momentarily distracted by the brief shot of the lovely Mini Mathur might have had something to do with it too.

For people unfamiliar with Indian cinema, the song is from a film called “Omkara” a couple of years ago, which was basically the Indian version of “Othello” (the director had already released an Indian version of “Macbeth” called “Maqbool” a few years previously). Both films were extremely successful and also very popular for their music.

In any case, readers will presumably be aware of the basic plotline of “Othello” so the song obviously fits in well with the way the tragic love story develops.

This is a slow, romantic, very mellow number by Rahat.

That is a surprising description. Slow, yes; mellow, just maybe; romantic, likely not. It’s a moody, somewhat brooding, philosophical song, of a kind that the lyricist Gulzar (Sampooran Singh Kalra) is well known for. “Naina thag lenge” means “the eyes will deceive (you)” and the song is all about how believing or trusting what one sees can be disastrous.

It has become one of Rahat’s signature songs, though.

That’s one thing, but also true, probably more directly relevant, is that _actually becoming a majority_ within a lifetime or two is something that could only possibly happen as a consequence of some national catastrophe.

Culture always changes, with older stuff making room for newer. In normal circumstances, Trollope gets forgotten, Austen gets adapted. If you get an unusually big cultural or racial shift over a short time, that’s more or less by definition going to be a consequence of something politically unusual.

Not people getting married and having babies.

For example, in the 40 years after 1909, Jews went from a minority to a majority in current Israel. But that was a consequence of Palestine having been part of two successive collapsing empires, population flows from wars and oppression elsewhere, and so on.

It’s not particularly likely, but you could imagine something equivalently ugly happening to the UK. That would obviously be a bad thing, for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with either racism or cultural preference.

Me. It’s ironic really how the generation of NH’s parents helped create the situation they now fear: it was those 60’s liberals wot were the flag bearers for all things multi.

Although they doubtless meant well (or maybe not), i’ve always thought a tremendous class interest was served by mass immigration, ie to disempower the indigenous working class. Oh you say, they didn’t want to do those rubbish jobs! Well maybe they would have had they been properly remunerated…

Anyway, so it is a bit ironic that a strategy to disempower one group has simply helped create another kind of threat. Blowback, I think the CIA call it. Maybe the white working class should convert en masse to Islam… I’d love to see the lettuce-crunchers splutter over the muesli then…

Anyway (2) Mohammed is only so popular because it’s almost the default name of the first boy-child in Muslim households, whereas the others have, like, a thousand to choose from. Doh…

I think, I quite enjoyed that. But:

You’ll have to excuse me. I’ve listened to Rahat twice, and whilst I understand perhaps the passion, I have no idea what the heck he’s on about.

Similarily with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. This is probably a real shame, for I think, with no evidence whatsoever, that they are with John Lennon and Imagine, I might be completely wrong!

My friend there isn’t much point in asking a monoglot like me to hear music that I don’t understand.

Perhaps you could translate?

For I do not think Falcao represtents any Asian I have ever met.

And, generally speaking, Asians are better than his stereotype.

Just saying.

I wish the concerts would get some decent coverage in the mainstream media (ideally as much as possible); Rahat Fateh Ali Khan and his family are very well-known figures amongst South Asians, and his late great uncle in particular was tremendously respected. Especially when you consider how much undeserved exposure people like Choudary get and the extent to which they’ve hijacked the public image of Islam and the perception of Muslims here in Britain.

Yeah, Germans complain that the only programmes on the telly about Germany are about World War II & Hitler, nothing about Goethe, Schiller etc. The same thing goes for Choudary – though I do notice that the Beeb at least has stopped using him as a representative Muslim mouth.

I’ve plugged these clips on PP before, but since you’re regrettably going to miss out on the ‘live’ experience, here are some examples of what I’m talking about:

- This is a slow, romantic, very mellow number by Rahat. The clip is from a televised concert in India.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ueUsrIrCMM

- And this is a form of traditional Sufi music known as a “qawwali”, sung in this instance by his late uncle Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and a fantastic example of the type of music which Rahat’s impending concerts will predominantly focus on (since they’re dedicated to his uncle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt-j7cojBg4&feature=channel continued at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DtX_2ZxN8I&feature=channel

It’s very, very different to the miserable, austere, belligerent and extremely bigotted message that people like Anjem Choudary and his fellow ideologues have been trying to push. In fact, it would completely blow apart some of the negative stereotypes about Muslims which have unfortunately become prevalent in some quarters of British society and the associated media in recent years. And as you can see from the audience in the clips, there isn’t any compulsory ‘veiling’, gender segregation etc either.

I wish the concerts would get some decent coverage in the mainstream media (ideally as much as possible); Rahat Fateh Ali Khan and his family are very well-known figures amongst South Asians, and his late great uncle in particular was tremendously respected. Especially when you consider how much undeserved exposure people like Choudary get and the extent to which they’ve hijacked the public image of Islam and the perception of Muslims here in Britain.

I think it would open a lot of people’s eyes.

Just because:

http://www.jesusandmo.net/

I have it on good authority that Screwdriver used to open their gigs with a cover version of the theme to ‘The Archers’

Doo-dee-doo
Dee-doo-dee-doo
Oi!
What you lookin’ at?