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  • Technorati: graph / links

    US army in deranged comment shock


    by Al-Hack on 12th June, 2006 at 10:38 am    

    Do you laugh or cry?

    The suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amount to acts of war, the US military says.

    Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair. “They are smart. They are creative, they are committed,” he said.

    “They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us.”

    Either this administration’s people are on mind-warping drugs or Michelle Malkin is the new speech writer.

    Words of wisdom by our peers:
    Robert Sharp: “Taking the American analysis of the situation at face value, we must conclude that the ‘warfare’ waged by these prisoners was successful. It is clear a strategy must be developed to protect decent people from similar ‘attacks’”

    PDF: “Damn those evil terrorists, doing themselves in just to spite us,” say the Americans.”

    PaulJ: “Well, there you have it. I mean, how do you win a war against a enemy who kill themselves before you get the chance? Frankly I reckon the US might as well throw in the towel right now…”

    Curious Hamster: “Perhaps more frightening than that though, is the fact that we’re governed by people who appear to have no understanding of the very things they claim to be defending.”



      |     |   Add to del.icio.us   |   Share on Facebook   |   Filed in: Civil liberties, Current affairs, United States




    102 Comments below   |  

    1. mirax — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:49 am  

      Yeah, that was an utterly despicable (and selfdefeating) spin by the Americans - act of war or PR stunt??? How low can you go?

    2. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:57 am  

      god everything is warfare.

      how tragic is that!

    3. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:59 am  

      right next time i watch prison break…

      the kind of desperation you need to be driven to commit suicide is immense.

    4. Don — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:17 am  

      Hmm, if the Guantanamo prisoners are so good at PR, maybe the US military could try to be less shit at it.
      When I heard the spokesperson give that line, for a moment I wondered if Chris Morris was behind it.

    5. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:22 am  

      “Perhaps more frightening than that though, is the fact that we’re governed by people who appear to have no understanding of the very things they claim to be defending.”

      hmm yes that was obvious a while back. we will defend our right to peace by killing other people {and ensuring what for these other people? oh democracy somehow in the process is going to spring up..}

    6. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:40 am  

      well it doesn’t really matter does it if the US army is so bad at PR - or the Bush administration for that matter? Since they appear to have so succcessfully hijacked the ‘ moral legitimacy’ argument and are forever ‘defenders of liberty’..

      the other problem is of course that military power appears to be reigning supreme. and comnine that with the moral authority the military has endowed itself with = and voila what do you get?

    7. Roger — on 12th June, 2006 at 12:07 pm  

      The Baader-Meinhof gang in Germany committed suicide in similar circumstances many years ago.
      I wouldn’t be surprised if the prisoners did kill themselves as the only way they can attack the USA. However, the very fact that they can do so effectively is a result of the USA’s abandonment of international law in dealing with them.

    8. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 12:30 pm  

      ‘the only way to attack the USA’

      sometimes you have to wonder at the incredible egotism in herent in imagining that if someone’s so desperate they’ll kill themself it must be because they wanted to get at YOU.

      pathological?

    9. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:05 pm  

      Pathological yes. 19 Hijackers killed themsleves, just to get at YOU (well America anyway).

      Well I suppose we will never know the truth. America says of the three:

      One was said to be a mid-level al-Qa’eda operative, a second was accused of taking part in the notorious Khalai Janghi prison uprising in Afghanistan in 2001 and a third was described as a member of a terrorist splinter group.

      If that were true, then the US would be bang on the money in my opinion.

    10. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:08 pm  

      It is illiberal to be anti-US no matter how unsecular and illiberal its policies are.

      OK, my impersonation of a Euston Manifesto signatory sucks.

    11. Roger — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:19 pm  

      Not desperate, Sonia. So intent on doing what they imagine to be their duty as soldiers. Three killing themselves at once suggests co-ordination not despair.
      It is wrong to be anti-any set of people just because of who they are. It is perfectly right to attack the policies they follow, whoever they are, though.

    12. Don — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:25 pm  

      Sonia,

      Not sure I agree that the Bush administration has ’succcessfully hijacked the ‘ moral legitimacy’ argument and are forever ‘defenders of liberty’. They were handed that as a gift on September 11th and have assiduously been squandering it ever since.

      Approval for Bush and the war has been plummetting, they are left with little more than ’support the troops’. Once people start to doubt if they can even do that - as in Vietnam - there is nothing left.

      Unfortunately, that particular spiral could easily lead to the Vietnam solution; declare victory and run, leaving your ‘allies’ to their fate.

    13. Kismet Hardy — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:35 pm  

      And there I was thinking it was the bomber bit in suicide bombers that was the real worry.

      Can you technically win a war if the opposition keep killing themselves?

      Oh and if they were beaten to death or died through too much exposure to metallica in one of their audio-technique torture method, they would come clean wouldn’t they?

      And when are DC comics going to bring out the all-American Suicide Watchmen superhero gang? They kill them before they can kill themselves

    14. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:39 pm  

      Can you technically win a war if the opposition keep killing themselves?

      Umm they have more babies than the opposition, and indoctrinate their children?

      Well, like they say over at Samizdata, I suppose it makes a change for Islamic extremists to just kill themsleves without taking innocent civilians with them… Though I’m sure if they had the chance they would have.

    15. Kismet Hardy — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:49 pm  

      ” I suppose it makes a change for Islamic extremists to just kill themsleves without taking innocent civilians with them”

      As opposed to the US army, who just take innocent civilians…

    16. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:49 pm  

      Umm they have more babies than the opposition, and indoctrinate their children?

      The defence of Camp Delta by some here is becoming increasingly comical. Roger suggests that detainees killing themselves is the same as an attack on the USA. This is a throwback to his burning flags is tantamount to murder thesis.

      As for j0nz, where are your links to the Daily Ablution website with data on the population growth of Muslims vs Indigenous as an argument for increased terrorism?

    17. Roger — on 12th June, 2006 at 1:58 pm  

      Where did I say “burning flags is tantamount to murder”? I think burning flags shows aspects of the way of thinking that leads to the murder of people for religio-political reasons.
      Nor do I “defend Camp Delta”. I think it is a disgrace to the USA and every country that is allied to the USA and does not protest. However, I do think that prisoners in Camp Delta who have no other means of striking at the USA- they are force-fed if they refuse to eat, remember- may commit suicide as the Baader-Meinhof gang did because their deaths are the only weapons they have left.

    18. Kismet Hardy — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:01 pm  

      Killing yourself is not a weapon

      It’s a last resort because your life is so shit

      Damnit, didn’t you listen to Joy Division when you were 16?

    19. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:06 pm  

      Killing yourself is not a weapon

      Try telling that to the thousands who martyr themsleves in the name of Islam every year.

      I wish it wasn’t. Perhaps Kismet you could go on tour around the Palestinian territories and explain to the sutdents of Hamas, IJ and Martyrs Brigade how they have got it all wrong…

      Joy Division?! I will have to download those later when I get home from work to understand this comment :)

    20. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:14 pm  

      Sid,

      Roger is now way defending Camp Delta. He’s daring to suggest that, actually, this co-ordinted suicide could be the only way that they could strike against the USA.

      One of the guys was reported to be a mid-level Al-Qaeda operative. I’m pretty sure he was a strong headed guy, and felt proud of martyrdom, they’re striking the US the only way they can…

    21. Suzzy — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:15 pm  

      jOnz is a very angry man.

      Why are you so angry, jOnz?

    22. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:19 pm  

      Lol.. Why am I angry? I am not suzzy! Well not at this moment in time! What makes you say that?

    23. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:19 pm  

      j0nz

      Please don’t confuse the issue. These men were “illegal combatants” largely from Afghanistan and not Palestine. In fact there are no Palestinians in Camp Delta AFAIK.

      If you want to defend USA’s illegal torture camp at Gunatanamo, stick to the reasons on why it should remain there.

      If you’re going to get involved in arguments on Islamic politics, learn to differentiate between the geo-political issues. Otherwise you end up sounding like Nick Griffin who rants about Muslims this and Islam that.

    24. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:23 pm  

      Lol yes that’s right. I am racist because I suggest that these men, might, possibly, actually be jihadis.

      I didn’t say they were from Palestinian territories! I was referring to Kismet’s comment that “killing yourself is not a weapon” - I disagree as would thousands of others every year who do just that!

      Furthermore, not once in these comments have I defended Camp Delta! Relax Sid it’s a nice day outside.

    25. Suzzy — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:23 pm  

      I don’t know jOnz, you just seem to be very antagonistic and angry in your posts and in your blog.

    26. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:25 pm  

      j0nz would also like to see more Asians shot in their houses so he can sleep at night. He supports the detainment of POWs and combatantants at Camp Delta without access to human rights or recourse to a fair trial so he can, yeah, sleep at night.

      Sleep is important to j0nz.

    27. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:25 pm  

      Yawn. Sid playing the race card. Boring!

    28. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:28 pm  

      Whatever. it all sucks whichever way you look at it! soldiers on one side /soldiers on another. what kind of societies are we perpetuating!?

    29. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:29 pm  

      Don’t be a silly boy j0nz, I’m not saying you’re racist. And you know it - so please stop trying to stop debate by suggesting so.

    30. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:29 pm  

      I don’t know jOnz, you just seem to be very antagonistic and angry in your posts and in your blog.

      I’m no wishy-washy-nampy-pampy liberal! I am happy to debate with anyone though that disagrees. Sometimes after much vaunted commenting, I sometimes come to an agreement. It even happened with Sid once!

    31. Suzzy — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:29 pm  

      Sid you say to jOnz the Angry One that he should learn to differentiate between Islam and ‘Geo Politics’. Well I think that advice would be good for lots of British Muslims to listen to as well, because they also tend to mix the two up sometimes and that creates half the problem in the first place.

    32. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:31 pm  

      Suzzy

      Damn right! Thats what PP is gearing up to do…

    33. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:38 pm  

      i think its just the Muslims j0nz is angry about. not ‘asians’ in general - judging from the rants anyway. and given the behaviour of some muslims we can see where it’s coming from. and it’s pretty common behaviour to generalize ( heh heh) you know - you hear of people being against ‘western values’ and the West as a blanket term - and in the same way - you have the same sentiments, simply reversed.

      nothing very surprising there. ( humans being what we are!) point is none of it is particularly constructive for the reality individuals face in a complex world. us vs. them rhetoric is simply that - rhetoric.

    34. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:39 pm  

      “Damnit, didn’t you listen to Joy Division when you were 16?”

      hehheh

    35. Kismet Hardy — on 12th June, 2006 at 2:52 pm  

      Jonz! Don’t download Joy Division you madman. It’s what you listen to when you toy with the idea of suicide as an angsty teenager

      The point was: no one, with exception of an insane few, kills themselves unless they have had everything taken away from them and nothing to live for

      If you want to solve suicide, maybe you should start by dealing with the bullies

    36. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 3:26 pm  

      “exception of an insane few”.. Well if the US sources are to be be believed they may well be that insane few!

      The Americans accused all three of involvement in terrorism. One was said to be a mid-level al-Qa’eda operative, a second was accused of taking part in the notorious Khalai Janghi prison uprising in Afghanistan in 2001 and a third was described as a member of a terrorist splinter group.

      That’s the point I’m making! Of course we this cannot be verified, and I’m sure we will never know either way…

      Joy Division .. more melancoly than Morrisey?! I gotta check this …

      P.s. anyone heard Morrisey’s new track “I have explosive kegs between my legs”? Bloody brilliant though.

    37. Zak — on 12th June, 2006 at 4:47 pm  

      khalai jangi prison wasn’t that the one the US allowed the Northern alliance to massacre prisoners?

    38. sonia — on 12th June, 2006 at 4:49 pm  

      “The Americans accused all three of involvement in terrorism”

      well yeah - isn’t that why they were in there in the first place!

    39. Roger — on 12th June, 2006 at 7:53 pm  

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,,1795867,00.html
      this does make it look like despair rather than the last possible way of fighting though.

    40. j0nz — on 12th June, 2006 at 9:24 pm  

      Do you think Bin Laden or any self-respecting Jihadi Sheik would commit suicide out of despair? I don’t.

      According to the US they were all implicitly involved in terrorism, one of them a mid-level Al-Qaeda operative. Why make death such a negative thing, when they no doubt believe in Allah’s paradise that awaits them?

      If they commit suicide then they would be going to hell, but if it was to strike the heart of the enemy, they would be going to paradise. I know where my money’s at.

    41. Refresh — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:00 pm  

      j0nz, nothing civilised about you my friend.

      I am more dismayed you feel that you are a progressive. A Progressive Fascist perhaps?

      How you are tolerated on these boards is just unbelievable.

    42. Don — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:04 pm  

      ’safe person’

      fuckin’ is now, eh j0nz?

    43. Sunny — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:15 pm  

      How you are tolerated on these boards is just unbelievable.

      j0nz may be amusing in his views but as long as he sticks to the rules of not being xenophobic then he is of course allowed to make his opinions known. Freedom of speech and all that. After all, we tolerate Bikhair.

    44. Sid — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:18 pm  

      j0nz’s bark is worse than his bias.

    45. El Cid — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:39 pm  

      the only undeniable thing that can really be said is that we can’t really know for sure what was going through their mind and the U.S. military is trying to manage the news to suit its interests. that’s MHO. everything else is a matter of opinion.

    46. El Cid — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:42 pm  

      i’m not namby-pamby either, let alone nampy-pampy (although it sounds like it could be fun)

    47. Refresh — on 12th June, 2006 at 10:59 pm  

      As I said unbelievable. The purpose surely is to allow free speech but challenge bigotry. Since he’s not xenophobic, he generally remains unchallenged.

      Sunny, What does that mean?

      He is a fascist if ever I saw one.

      On the other hand allowing him to exhaust himself may not be a bad strategy. Like putting him in the childrens ball room you get at Ikea.

    48. Kulvinder — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:12 pm  

      Theres something very Douglas Adams about that quote, suicide as an ‘act of asymmetrical warfare’, apparently Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was posthumously charged with the theft and destruction of the bombs that killed him.

    49. Ismaeel — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:31 pm  

      If i may interject. Although it is true that suicide attacks are used in various parts of the world by various militant groups Muslim and non-Muslim, the Muslim groups themselves never classify them as suicide bombings, preferring the term martyrdom operation. Why, well because there is a clear and unambigious condemnation of those who commit suicide in the Qu’raan. Those who argue for the legitimacy of such attacks involving the inevitable killing of ones self invoke stories of earlier Mujahideen who use to throw themselves into the thick of the enemy lines, knowing they would be slaughtered but knowing that they would also take out many of their enemies at the same time. Thus a distinction is made between these groups between suicide in and of itself and suicide in the context of warfare.

      I think the suicides at Guatanamo are neither an attempt at asymmetrical warfare or any other warfare. i don’t think even amongst Al-Qaida there will be Islamic justifications for their unhappy ends, but sadly are the results of a soul-destroying system.

    50. Ismaeel — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:36 pm  

      US army in deranged comment shock, well makes a change from the usual President making deranged comments

    51. Don — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:42 pm  

      Refresh,

      Not exactly Mr Objective yourself. J0nz is frequently intemperate and often wrong, but he also makes valid points and is not a fascist.

      Unchallenged? Where have you been?

    52. MatGB — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:43 pm  

      *cough*

      While I’d love to claim credit for some of the lines in that post, ’twas Paul wrote that entry not me. He even said as such right at the beginning. I dunno, editor of a group blog not noticing when a different contributor has written summat…

      I suspect that they were timed together. I suspect that it’s despair leading to “one last shot”. Essentially, this sort of thing will reduce support for Gitmo domestically in the US. That it’s still got support as a legally non-existent holding camp befuddles me anyway.

    53. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:44 pm  

      Sunny,

      “After all, we tolerate Bikhair.”

      You’ve hurt my feelings Sunny. Now I can tolerate other people on this site being mean to me, but you? If I take a hiatus you will be searching the cyber world looking for me. I know it. Shame that you are frontin’ for all the haters. Haters of me that is.

    54. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:45 pm  

      Ismeel,

      “Those who argue for the legitimacy of such attacks involving the inevitable killing of ones self invoke stories of earlier Mujahideen who use to throw themselves into the thick of the enemy lines, knowing they would be slaughtered but knowing that they would also take out many of their enemies at the same time.”

      Are you sure about that…

    55. Ismaeel — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:48 pm  

      Bikhair, yep, this is the evidence adduced by the famous “fatawa” from Afghanistan by Abdullah Azzam, Shaykh Afifi has given a thorough refutation to it in his own fatawa according to the Shafi Madhabb, it is included in the book “The State We’re in” published by Amal Press.

    56. Ismaeel — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:49 pm  

      Bikhair why are you calling yourselves Taqiyyah, are you being sarcastic?

    57. Refresh — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:53 pm  

      Don, he should be challenged - hope he has been and will be. Yes I do see that he often wrong. If the best we can do is see him as intemperate, then the world has changed beyond anything I see as progressive. I am finding ‘Have your say’ on the BBC much more in touch with reality.

      This one topic which is covering a grotesque development - what do we see? A bit of ping pong.

      Fascist? Yes I have this growing feeling he is.

      Objective? I do my best. But going by the the contributions to date - it hardly matters.

    58. Refresh — on 12th June, 2006 at 11:57 pm  

      Bikhair, excuse my ignorance. Can you satisfy my curiosity. I was quite late coming into PP, but why do you have this reputation where Sunny can equate you to j0nz?

      Also what is Taqiyya - I only know it as a pillow?

    59. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:02 am  

      Refresh

      Taqiyyah means to dissimulate in Arabic, Sunni Muslims use it in cases where they may be killed for their faith. Shiahs have used it more widely to hide their religious affiliations from Sunnis. However amongst the Jihad Watch conglomerate it’s used to attack all Muslims who disassociate themselves from atrocities in the name of Islam. We are apparantly employing taqiyyah to hide our true beliefs.

    60. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:05 am  

      Refresh et all.

      As a white male in the UK I find the people that demand “Europe is the cancer, Islam is the Cure” and relate all their reasoning to pleasing Allah, very worrying. Terrifying in fact.

      On the other hand I consider Nick Griffen and his merry band of thugs to be a complete joke.

      I can understand that as “non-whites” you may find the MCB, HuT and the phyosophy of types much as Ismaeel (I don’t know Bikhar so well to pass comment on him) to be rather amusing, yet Nick Griffen to be rather scary.

      Its is just a case of being on the other side of the fence you see.

      j0nz has clearly O’D on Jihad Watch (As have I in the past) and Robert Spencer arguments. I do believe that there are Jihadists discussing the point that j0nz has made - “are these guys currently in Heaven or Hell”?

      Equally I would like to know who thinks that the 7/7 terrorists are in heaven or hell. As far as I can tell they appear to have ticked the boxes for fast express way to heaven, and I would like to see a Fatwa stating the opposite to be the case. It is not enough to bather “to kill an innocient …”

      On the topic of this post, we’ll never know for sure if it was an act of “desperation” or an act of “war”.

      In the properganda that forms much of this ‘War on Terror’, their lives have given birth to this debate on this board and a lot of column inches in the global papers, so they hardly died silently with cause.

      I have no sympathy for Jihadists that dream of tearing down the society that I am happily living in and replacing it with 7th Centry religous Law.

      I wish I could view it all as a joke like I do the BNP.

      TFI

      ps I also wish I had a spell checker on this PC.

    61. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:07 am  

      Hahaha - I had to look up dissimulate. I see now what you mean. But in Indian taqiyyah is a pillow.

      (Did you spot the bit of dissimulation in my last sentence?)

    62. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:12 am  

      Bikhair is a girl TFI,

      You can’t give a fatawa to say whether someone is in heaven or hell, only Allah (SWT) can do that, you can only give a fatawa about the legitimacy or illigetamacy of the action. I believe Maulana Shahid Reza gave a clear ruling to the media that it was illigetimate, i believe you can still see it as part of THAT panaroma programme about the MCB online.

    63. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:24 am  

      Bikhair is a girl TFI

      Damn, they all look the same on the internet!

      Thanks for the clarification of a Fatawa, much appreciated.

      I’d not heard that about “Maulana Shahid Reza”, nor do I understand what you mean by “clear ruling to the media“. I didn’t realise that the media had doubts about whether it was a illegimate act or not. Unlike some of the hot head young male Muslim’s that like to tour the Middle East performing Jihad and dream of its gory in thier bedrooms, they are in bigger need for clarification.

      Got any links kicking around for me to follow and find out who this Maulana Shahid Reza is and what exactly they did?

      Cheers,

      TFI

    64. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:24 am  

      TFI

      Three people have taken their lives in intolerable conditions. One of them was due for release (but wasn’t told), presumably innocent even under the prejudicial system used in Guantanamo Bay. The reaction from the US authorities is that it was an act of agression against the US.

      It is an appalling state of affairs that a country with might beyond any before, sees that it needs to portray a tragedy (which has been four years in the making) as an act against it. Apart from anything else it highlights to the vast majority of right-minded people how serious things have become.

      By accepting that we remove any vestiges of humanity allotted to those the US deem hostile. I say deem hostile - for the simple reason that the US dare not put the captives on trial. To the extent that laws have been passed removing the right of these detainees
      to challenge their imprisonment.

    65. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:29 am  

      TFI

      Maulana Shahid Reza is attached to Jamia ul Karam, a Sunni Madrassah in Nottingham, all i remember is there is a press statement where he makes it clear that the 7/7 bombings were illigitimate and this formed part of the famous MCB panorama programme, i dont know anything else as i was actually away holidaying shortly after 7/7 for a few months.

      Oh and TFI i posted earlier that is is highly unlikely that even Al Qaida would see suicides not involving some sort of physical killing to the enemy as legitimate as warfare or legitimate full stop.

    66. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:32 am  

      TFI thanks for clarifying j0nz state of mind. It almost sounds like this JihadWatch is a cult, and perhaps there is some therapy against it.

      Perhaps he deserves a little more sympathy.

    67. Sunny — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:38 am  

      Ok ok Bikhair - I don’t hate you… I find you amusing etc, though some of your comments make me wince. You’re ok now, you’ve calmed down a lot since you first started.

    68. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:39 am  

      Hi Izzy,

      I just read your post again, and I realise I missed something:

      You can’t give a fatawa to say whether someone is in heaven or hell, only Allah (SWT) can do that, you can only give a fatawa about the legitimacy or illigetamacy of the action. I believe Maulana Shahid Reza gave a clear ruling to the media that it was illigetimate, i believe you can still see it as part of THAT panaroma programme about the MCB online.

      So this person ruled that it was not a legitimate act, therefore it was an ilegimate act and therefore they wouldn’t get the fast track automatic Jihad ascention to heaven plus all those sexually inexpirenced women to enjoy?

      But you state that they might be still be there, without the supply of rasins, should Allah have decided that overal they had been a good Muslims?

      Incidentally, how does the number of Fatawas issued from the UK Imams about the cartoons compare with the number of Fatawas issued by them declaring the 7/7 attack illegitimate?

      Cheers,

      TFI

      Is it 100:1? 50:1? 10:1? 1:1? 1:10? 1:50? I’d like to think that it is at least 1:1. I believe that insulting dead people isn’t nearly as bad as killing alive people.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    69. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:39 am  

      “Ok ok Bikhair - I don’t hate you… I find you amusing etc, though some of your comments make me wince. You’re ok now, you’ve calmed down a lot since you first started.”

      Awwww

    70. Sunny — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:41 am  

      MatGB - its all corrected now, Hack must not have seen it.

      Refresh - calling him a fascist is surely a gross exaggeration when you can’t even call him a xenophobe.
      I did find the taqqiyah thing hilarious too. Sounds much better as a pillow… hehe.

    71. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:42 am  

      Oh and TFI i posted earlier that is is highly unlikely that even Al Qaida would see suicides not involving some sort of physical killing to the enemy as legitimate as warfare or legitimate full stop.

      Yes I read that and I agree with your reasoning.

    72. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:43 am  

      “Europe is the cancer, Islam is the Cure”

      This is the biggest load of claptrap I’ve heard. I don’t know who is pushing that and what they hope to achieve. I do seem to recall a placard with that on at THAT notorious march.

      I would certainly keep an eye on the cretin carrying the placard. Better to keep him away from felt-tip pens, before he does himself an injury.

    73. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:46 am  

      “Incidentally, how does the number of Fatawas issued from the UK Imams about the cartoons compare with the number of Fatawas issued by them declaring the 7/7 attack illegitimate?”

      Now let me see, TFI, shall i be dragged into your rather silly game of attempting to bait me???

      Fatawas are rarely given and i dont believe any were given during the cartoon crisis.

    74. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:48 am  

      “But you state that they might be still be there, without the supply of rasins, should Allah have decided that overal they had been a good Muslims?”

      Allah knows best.

    75. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:50 am  

      TFI thanks for clarifying j0nz state of mind. It almost sounds like this JihadWatch is a cult, and perhaps there is some therapy against it.

      You should try reading it, say away from the comments as the bigoty of the readers will drive you insane.

      However has a news aggregiation, it can provide some interesting links that represent the dirty washing of Islam.

      Hugh is a complete arse, never read his articles they aren’t reasoned or researched.

      Robert is better, he makes arguements and supports them with quotes and references. It is interesting to read his ‘debates’ with others that oppose him.

      I notice that there is a Jihadwatchwatch (how trendy this ‘watch’ thing is). Jihadwatch is in desperate need of some counter arguments. It is my opinon that JWW is not stepping up to the mark.

      TFI

    76. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:50 am  

      “Refresh - calling him a fascist is surely a gross exaggeration when you can’t even call him a xenophobe.”

      Sunny I was being guided by you- you don’t think he is a xenophobe. On the other hand being a fascist doesn’t necessarily make you a xenophobe.

      My opinion is he is a ‘closet’ xenophobe - seeing we can’t call him racist - because that would be ‘lame’. You got ticked off for that if you remember.

    77. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:50 am  

      Fatawas are rarely given and i dont believe any were given during the cartoon crisis.

      Sorry let me clarify that, i don’t recall any UK Imam issuing a fatawa about it, certainly none of the MAC ulema did and i can’t recall any others.

    78. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:52 am  

      Now let me see, TFI, shall i be dragged into your rather silly game of attempting to bait me???

      Izzy, you have finally grown up!

    79. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:54 am  

      TFI - thanks, but I think I’ll give JW a miss. I struggle with some of the nonsense that filters onto here, trying that stuff would probably damage the few grey cells I am holding on to.

    80. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:54 am  

      “Izzy, you have finally grown up!”

      and you’ve finally learnt some irony old boy.

    81. Sunny — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:01 am  

      Do I sense some brotherly love in the thread? A group hug maybe? :D

    82. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:06 am  

      and you’ve finally learnt some irony old boy.

      I know all about Irony, its just like Bronzy but made of iron :)

      TFI - thanks, but I think I’ll give JW a miss.

      I agree that it is not as good as this site as it is (a) UK (b) has a wide range of real people on it (c) people discuss and generally don’t just post poison*

      However you need multiple news sources, if you want to understand the JW cult and mind set, check out what it says occasionally :)

      TFI
      * Hats off to you Sunny

    83. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:08 am  

      *hugs*

    84. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:20 am  

      Ishmeel,

      Yes I am being sarcastic with the name but it will be my name until I completely change it to Taqiyyah after everyone has gotten used to it.

      Sunny,

      Yeah yeah. Youre only saying that because you are a moderator on this blog and you have to be diplomatic. I know how you feel. I know what you Asians say when you guys are together.

    85. Sunny — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:23 am  

      I don’t need to be nice here if I don’t want to Bikhair, surely you should know that by now? Seriously, you have become a lot more intelligent in your comments recently, and I’d like to think that was all thanks to us. You’re part of the furniture now.
      PP’s very own mad woman :)

    86. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:26 am  

      The Friendly Infidel,

      With regard to Robert Spencer:

      Why, may I ask, does her refer to the work Relliance of the Travellor to explain, predict or support Muslim behavior and belief?

    87. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 10:04 am  

      Why, may I ask, does her refer to the work Relliance of the Travellor to explain, predict or support Muslim behavior and belief?

      Ug?

    88. Jai — on 13th June, 2006 at 10:22 am  

      Regarding the suicides at Gitmo:

      Okay, I’m just applying some lateral thinking here. Some of you (especially those of you of Indian descent) will be aware that people back in India sometimes try to commit suicide by burning themselves to death (”self-immolation”) as an act of protest against what they perceive as some injustice or immoral situation. (A man in Gujarat just tried to do it as a protest against Aamir Khan & “Fanaa”, for example. There have been numerous other examples in recent years, especially by Hindutva types).

      I was wondering if the suicides in Guantanamo were also for similar reasons — as an act of protest, and also to draw further attention to the situation of the people imprisoned there. If the outcome of their deaths would be further condemnation of the base and another blow to America’s moral credibility, then that could be viewed as a deliberate tactic to damage the US. An “act of war”, if you will.

      I’m not saying this was actually the case — and of course I have no idea what would really be going through the minds of the people concerned, or if they really would be thinking along the same lines as the people in India who deliberately kill themselves as an act of protest in this way — but it was just something that occurred to me.

    89. j0nz — on 13th June, 2006 at 10:27 am  

      Oh Jai! You racist! You fasist! etc

    90. sonia — on 13th June, 2006 at 10:45 am  

      erm..isn’t that what occurred to the Gitmo people as well. Regarding your theory Jai i’d say one thing. if you’re a ‘free’ person and you choose to commit suicide it may well be the case that you’re trying to ‘protest’ or be a ’soldier’ in your cause whatever. if you’re locked up tortured and life is shit, hey - you know what - it may be a way out. the only way out of living hell.

    91. Jai — on 13th June, 2006 at 11:01 am  

      I know, Sonia. That’s why I said this may not have been what actually happened at all. Maybe they really did kill themselves because they couldn’t stand indefinite incarceration in such terrible conditions. I have no idea. I don’t think any of us here are in a position to give the definitive explanation one way or another — all we can do is speculate.

    92. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 11:42 am  

      all we can do is speculate.

      Indeed, that is all we can ever do.

      Bikhair: Why, may I ask, does her refer to the work Relliance of the Travellor to explain, predict or support Muslim behavior and belief?

      I’m afraid that I’ve no idea what you are talking about. Could you expand on this?

      Cheers,

      TFI
      (PP tells me that while I’m on my home PC I am spammer!!! Was it my spelting?)

    93. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 12:16 pm  

      Do you laugh or cry?

      Cry.

    94. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 13th June, 2006 at 7:08 pm  

      The Friendly Infidel,

      The Relliance of the Travellor or Umdat As Salik is a book of fatawa (religious rulings) and other scholarly commentary translated by Nu Ha Mien Keller a hardcore deviant sufi.

      Robert Spencer refers to that book regarding behavior and beliefs of Muslims when in reality there are thousands of its kinds by different scholars over the past 1400 years. It seems strange to me that one of so many books of its kind would be so prominent in his writings. For someone who has studied Islam for decades, speaks Arabic (maybe), I would think that his references would be more extensive than that.

      This is why I cant take him seriously as a scholar of Islamic theology. If he has no understanding of Arabic, he has limited his resources. I doubt anyone would regard him as a serious scholar of any other religion, especially Judaism, with such weak credintals. But Islam is a religion of the desert Arab and doesnt deserve much consideration.

    95. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 13th June, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

      Jai,

      except that, as you probably already know, these arent the first attempted suicides, these men are completed secluded, with many other considerations. Ofcourse no on knows except for their creator.

      Oh and didnt we hear about how wonderful they had been treated, they have never eaten better and havent been that healthy in all their life. These guys must be crazy.

    96. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th June, 2006 at 7:14 pm  

      Hi Bikair,

      I suggest that you go ask him that, or construct a proper analysis of what you have said quoting examples of his over use of this book and ask watching jihadwatch to publish it for you.

      I for one would be very interested to see the reaction it would provoke and whether you could hold your own should you enter into a discussion about his scholary creditials.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    97. Ismaeel — on 13th June, 2006 at 7:33 pm  

      “Nu Ha Mien Keller a hardcore deviant sufi”.

      Bikhair, that is very rude, Shaykh Nuh is respected as a traditional Sunni scholar conforming with the beleifs of the overwhelming majority of Sunnis worldwide. He is also a Sufi, guess what so are most Sunnis, including this one.

      I’m presuming you must be following some form of Salafism which really is a deviation and a minority sect of Islam which can barely draw it’s inspiration from a handful of scholars in our history because everyone else contradicts them. Even some Ulema whose books the Salafys consult like Imam Ibn Kathir and Imam an Nawawi were Sufis and it is interesting to look at their original work full of Sufi and traditional Sunni beliefs and the butchered abridged versions coming out of KSA.

      Sorry my sister, but you brought this on yourself.

    98. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 15th June, 2006 at 12:11 pm  

      Sorry my sister, but you brought this on yourself.

      Yeah! What man let you out of the house anyway? Who is your handler? Don’t you know that you bring shame on your family? You aren’t a good Muslim. Now cover your face and don’t dare speak your mind again, we men are here to protect you from your self.

      Ismaeel, if she wants to be rude and uncivil, that is her right to do so. I know would like anyone that might offend your religious sensibilities to be arrested and throw in prison, but we don’t live in the Middle East.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    99. sonia — on 15th June, 2006 at 12:22 pm  

      the poor middle east it does get a bad rap. it’s hardly the same across the entire region though listening to the media one would think so!

      :-) anyway bikhair seems to have met her match

    100. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 15th June, 2006 at 12:31 pm  

      Sonia, true enough I’ve been to Dubai and its lovelly. I hear that Israel is out there to and they have real courts of Law, not kangaroo “behind the scenes, religous nuts, handing out holier than thou rulings” courts.

      TFI

    101. Dave Fish — on 20th June, 2006 at 4:42 pm  

      I may want to become involved in this challenging project: Rhetorosaurus

    102. Sunny — on 20th June, 2006 at 4:57 pm  

      looks interesting!

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