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  • A very bad taste in the mouth


    by Sunny
    8th June, 2006 at 2:29 am    

    As the police twist and turn and release statements almost in guilt, while the press keep conjuring up desperate excuses to back them up, I become increasingly dis-illusioned with the east London raid, like Sid.

    Every Asian I’ve talked to about the raid has given me that knowing look saying, “they’re gonna find nothing. It is the ricin case all over again”.

    The case stank from the very beginning as the media reports came in. As Lenin and Osama show, the reporting has been all over the place.

    More terror in Sunday’s papers with talk of anthrax, nerve gas and cyanide. The latter Sunday Times report oddly has “intelligence sources” talking about cyanide, but later the same report says nothing has been found in the house.

    The Telegraph report however, who also have “security sources”, say that the chemical in question was more likely to be sarin. How can both newspapers have conflicting reports from the same intelligence services? Either they’re lying or the police and security services need to look at their media management.

    As Blink now points out, the case is crumbling:

    Officials have now admitted doubts over chemical plot that resulted in one man being shot during a terrorist raid last Friday.

    One official has said: ‘There is no viable device at that house. There is no device being constructed, or chemicals. There does not appear to be anything there or anywhere else.’

    The neighbours were roughed up too.

    The only sensible piece of editorial so far on the issue has been the Mail on Sunday (you won’t catch me saying that often):

    But it is the manner in which the arrest was carried out that is questionable. Were the extraordinary numbers of officers really needed, when the public are constantly being told that there is not enough manpower available to deal with ordinary crime and disorder? Was the shooting a justified use of extreme force, or a needless bungle?

    If police were hoping to capture alleged terrorists in possession of dangerous materials, why was the area not evacuated first?

    The way in which the action was conducted kindles the suspicion that it had a propaganda purpose as well as a security purpose - that it was intended to demonstrate the vigilance and striking power of MI5 and the police just as much as it was aimed at collaring alleged terrorists.

    Unsurprisingly the Respect party and Yvonne Ridley have tried to use it for their own agenda. Why does the press even pay attention to this stupid cow? Sid, not surprisingly disagrees with her

    Muslims should reject foolhardy advice proffered by national and “community” politicians. Advice such as this rancorous peice of irresponsible claptrap from Yvonne Ridley of Respect Party

    Jamal sums up the general mood when he says:

    Until adequate regulation of theses ‘anti-terrorist’ terrorists is in place, I’ll be sleeping with one eye open, as we are all considered ‘live game’ apparently!


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    Filed in: Civil liberties,Media






    139 Comments below   |  

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    1. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:43 am  

      Just normal moderate everyday Muslims that want to integrate with a pluralist democracy and everything it strands for

    2. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:45 am  

      If Jamal is sleeping with one eye open, one wonders what sort of forums he is posting at….

      20 “asian” men were protesting outside the hospital right after it happened. Pity we didn’t have 20 “asian” men protesting after 7/7.

    3. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:48 am  

      And yes, they probably have f*** it up. BUT, what would you do if you was in charge of military intelligence and you interview a nervous informant talking about a chemical vest?

      The really worrying thing is, if they don’t find anything, which does seem likely at this stage, then where is this vest? Assuming the informant didn’t make it up - which I would find very unlikely given the consequences…

    4. inders — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:50 am  

      Remember the couple of MAn Utd fans who got detained and splashed across front pages for a plot to blow up Old Trafford ? Released without charge in the end weren’t they ?

    5. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:02 am  

      It can be extremely difficult to prosecute somebody for what they intend to do. Inders, do you feel safer knowing that they are out in the open and have to be monitored 24/7 by MI5?

    6. Inders — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:22 am  

      IF they’re being monitored by MI5 then why don’t they wait until they’ve got some evideence (such as a few dozen bags of fertilizer) before arresting them ?

    7. TottenhamLad — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:43 am  

      250 police officers do not go to all the bother of raiding a house just for the fun of it.

      Better a few irate ethnics than another 7/7.

      Just remember that every cloud has a silver lining as we see at the Independent Asian families consider quitting Britain over terror raids by police…

    8. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:57 am  

      I was just thinking what kind of taste cynaide would leave in the mouth… I’d say a very bad taste

    9. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:04 am  

      To echo the views of a couple of posters above -

      What should the sec services / police etc have done with the information recieved?. If they actually thought that there was some sort of device in the house how exactly should they have gone about ascertaining whether there was one or not?

      Maybe surveillance? I can imagine there would have been. But then surveillance is a slow process - I have a feeling that with such information speed would be vital.

      If there is nothing in the house then I for one am still glad that whatever information was recieved was acted upon. I doubt such a high profile operation would have been carried out based on anything like an anonymous phone call etc.

      Also, like J0nz say’s - why all the immediate protests when there is a raid and we know nothing of the intelligence or total circumstance. And calls for ‘sympathy’ etc towards a particular community - but nothing after the same communities members are behind actual attacks?

      If the muslim community want to be seen as a whole - as a single united people that feel ‘attacked’ because of the raid - then they should be seen as the same when one of their community actually carries out an attack.

      Yvonne Ridley is an idiot.

    10. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:15 am  

      I can understand the frustration of our security forces. If they don’t act, then they are blamed for it. If they do act but screw up, then they are called racists. If they do act and manage to get it right, no one seems to talk about it.

      I am sorry. But there are muslim terrorists in this country who will try to blow us up and live among us as “normal members of the community”, and if a few need to be roughed up, then so be it. I don’t mind to be subject to extra scrutiny by the fact that I am brown and that’s the color of terrorism these days. I rather go through that, then to be looked with suspicion and fear after a terrorist attack.

    11. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:17 am  

      “If the muslim community want to be seen as a whole - as a single united people that feel ‘attacked’ because of the raid - then they should be seen as the same when one of their community actually carries out an attack.”

      Exactly right!

    12. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:35 am  

      Sid is right about the apparent co-operative response from the arrested men. On Newsnight Paxman seemed incredulous when their lawyer said her client understood why the police felt they had to act, and was ‘pleased’ that they were taking strong action, although less pleased about the specifics of this particular raid. Sounds very forebearing to me.

      It will bwe a while, if ever, before we get the full story. Personally I can’t imagine why 250 police were needed, surveillance might not have been enough to determine whether or not a weapon was present, but the police must have known only a handful of people were in the house. Multiply personnel and you multiply the chances of a cock-up.

      By the way, a bit of good news;

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5058304.stm

    13. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:39 am  

      does anyone know exactly what kind of information was received = and from where?

      i.e. what kind of intelligence was used for the basis of the raid.

      i’d imagine that surely the police wouldn’t go around wasting their time. i am curious as to how they go about finding these things out - and i think the more open they are about it, the more understanding and less ‘irate’ they’re likely to be. the one thing that concerns a lot of people ( and not just asians!) is the loss of civil liberties and the possibility of an encroaching police state. if people feel like police are making sensible decisions then they’re less likely to worry and make a fuss. surely the police realize that an informed public is likely to be more co-operative than people who are worried about police brutality/harassment. another important factor is how much the public trust the police. once you lose that trust there’s potential for big trouble.

      pretty serious stuff and not to be glossed over.

      the thing about about the old trafford situation - i remember that the reason given at the time was that the police were suspicious about this guy who had the man u tickets - and apparently their reasoning went something like ..yeah a dodgy foreigner supporting man u - not possible, must be a terrorist just trying to get into a football match.

      that made me laugh -while i was growing up ‘abroad’ one of the football teams that for some reason appears to have huge support overseas is Man United.

    14. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:40 am  

      “Personally I can’t imagine why 250 police were needed”

      I’m taking a stab in the dark here… but if they immediately found something - if the informants information had been true, then I can imagine they would need a big task force to evacuate the area quickly. I can’t see them evacuating before the raid as the element of surprise has gone, and there is a higher risk of any device (if there is one) being deployed in a ‘last ditch attempt’.

    15. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:42 am  

      who said that the muslim community want to be seen as a whole? i think concerns about police brutality are universal. and one of the reasons people are so suspicious about what the police say is because of the de menezes incident last summer - nearly all of the things listed about that turned out to be false. and why do you imagine it’s ‘asian’ people who are the only ones worried?

    16. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:45 am  

      re: 250 police being needed - well that doesn’t suprise me - what does suprise me is that most people haven’t noticed how generally nowadays police are usually to be found in extremely large no’s. whenever something happens. where i live - man - all i ever see is vans and vans of coppers rushing around all the time. psychologically they know that large no.’s appear intimidating and that’s obviously why they’re going for that strategy. you can’t necessarily blame them for that - perhaps you might have sth to say to Tony re: usage of resources - but that’s another matter. the more police there are on the scene in one sense should lessen the need for actual brutality.

    17. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:58 am  

      “who said that the muslim community want to be seen as a whole?”

      Sonia - just about every article covering the London raid carries some sort of quote from the (Muslim) neighbours / friends or Muslim community leaders who are seeing the raid as a potential attack on the Muslim community - that there is an air of ‘open season’ on them.

      You’re right that police brutality is a universal issue, at no point have I said it isn’t, its a given that it is - but thats a seperate issue

    18. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:12 pm  

      Well, yes, the police should have thought before they acted. I don’t know whether they did, but going by their general record when it comes to raids for serious offences they don’t seem to be thinking very well or getting adequate information. obvious questions are what is the likelihood of what they’ve been told in general, with the people concerned and in that pasticular instance and do they need to go in at two o’clock in the morning?
      They should also have thought about the number of people involved too- with 250 people most of them wouldn’t know what anyone else was doing or supposed to be doing and they’d probably have got in each others’ way.
      Is there an “asian community” or a “muslim community” at all? I don’t think you’d get a Kashmiri, a Kosovan and a Bangladeshi thinking they are part of the same community except when they have adopted a common extreme idntity. If people think there’s a community there’e a community, but whether the people who say they lead it lead it is another matter too. All the same if “communities” demand collective rights then they will have to accept collective responsibilities and- apart from the effect on society as a whole- that is not going to have a good effect on particular communities.

    19. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:24 pm  

      “with 250 people most of them wouldn’t know what anyone else was doing or supposed to be doing and they’d probably have got in each others’ way”

      As much as I realise the police have made mistakes in the past - I highly doubt an operation involving so many officers would simply have been carried out by transporting 250 people to a location and hoping for the best. It would have been preceded with some sort of briefing as to what each individuals role would be, though as good as that briefing might be it does not stop any individual making a mistake.

      “Going in” at 2am is an obvious choice - they are hardly going to carry out a such a raid at any other time than a time when the streets will be clear and those involved can be taken by surprise.

    20. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:58 pm  

      The claim was that this was an urgent operation that had to be carried out at very short notice. Certainly, people would have been told what to do- the problem with ops involving a load of people come because they haven’t been told what not to do when- as always happens- something you didn’t expect happens.
      Another reason going in at 2 am is an obvious choice is that it is in time for the morning papers. The police have a habit of making morning raids with the press in attendance.

    21. Sheikh Yassin — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:10 pm  

      Even though this police action is understandable, bungled operations such as this will only cause the “Muslim Community” to feel that the police and the “authorities” are not to be trusted, and to some extent feared. All you need to do is look at it from a muslim perspective and you can see why so many young muslims are being radicalised. Muslims already feel victimised the world over, and actions like this are going to compund the views of would be extremists or even terrorists.

      The fact of the matter is more operations like this aren’t going to lead to anything but more terrorist attacks. And that is not a good thing.

    22. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:17 pm  

      “more operations like this aren’t going to lead to anything but more terrorist attacks”

      So attempting to prevent terrorist attacks (based on information recieved) will lead to people actually carrying out more attacks? What if something had been found? Would that also lead to more attacks?

      What about these guys - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5016274.stm - will the fact they were recorded and under surveillance and eventually arrested lead to more attacks?

      I’m sorry to say it - but its a stupid argument you’re putting forward Sheikh.

    23. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

      All you need to do is look at it from a muslim perspective and you can see why so many young muslims are being radicalised.

      It is easy to see why they are being radicalized, you’ve only got to read the messages that the “community leaders” put out to see why.

      Its a pity that none of these leaders are prepared to try and smooth relationships, they seem happier pouring petrol on the issues.

      TFI

    24. Sheikh Yassin — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:30 pm  

      What I’m trying to argue is that a sense of alienation in the muslim community is what lead to the 7/7 attacks.

      I’m not arguinng that the police shouldn’t be acting to prevent terrorist attacks, but that this particular operation will cause muslim to feel alienated and isolated, and that is what will cause future terrorism in the Britain. It’s unfortunate, but unavoidable.

    25. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:45 pm  

      2Its a pity that none of these leaders are prepared to try and smooth relationships, they seem happier pouring petrol on the issues.”
      “I must do what they want. I am their leader.”

      ” this particular operation will cause muslim to feel alienated and isolated, and that is what will cause future terrorism in the Britain. It’s unfortunate, but unavoidable. ”
      Given some of the attitudes to muslims as a result of terrorist attacks and the recent success of the BNP the muslim community ought to be rather more worried about the alienation of every other community in Britain and the possible consequences of that alienation, in fact. That’s leaving asid ethe fact that muslims are as much at risk of being killed by their more dedicated fellow-believers as anyone else.

    26. Sheikh Yassin — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:56 pm  

      Yeah, but who gives a toss about any other community?

    27. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:57 pm  

      obviously that’s the problem isn’t it!

      anyway how does one define a community?

    28. Sheikh Yassin — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:59 pm  

      a group of people having ethnic or cultural or religious characteristics in common

    29. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:01 pm  

      “anyway how does one define a community?”

      Please let’s not get bogged down in semantics - it’s a wasteful excerise in any open debate.

    30. Sheikh Yassin — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:04 pm  

      “Given some of the attitudes to muslims as a result of terrorist attacks and the recent success of the BNP the muslim community ought to be rather more worried about the alienation of every other community in Britain and the possible consequences of that alienation”

      Why should muslims be worried if “every other community” can’t distinguish between the terrorists and the muslims, thats their problem not ours.

    31. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:07 pm  

      I don’t think its understood to the extent that extremist groups such as Hizb ut Tahrir can use such events to increase their rhetoric about “this country is against Muslims” etc and try and marginalise them further.

      And that only leads to more radicalised and alienated youth who have the potential to join the dark side. So to speak.

      The other problem is of course that if no one has any trust in the police to carry out operations properly, then people will be much less willing to provide information.

      Why can’t the police just do operations quietly and if they achieve something, make a big deal about it.

      “Better a few irate ethnics than another 7/7.”

      There’s about 4-5 million ethnics in this country. Having them irate is not a good idea. And any dreams that they’re all going to emigrate “back to their homeland” enmasse is also never going to happen. So wake up pal.

    32. leon — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:08 pm  

      “But there are muslim terrorists in this country who will try to blow us up and live among us as “normal members of the community”, and if a few need to be roughed up, then so be it.”

      I wouldn’t call being shot in the shoulder or shot in the face “roughed up”.

    33. Sheikh Yassin — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:16 pm  

      “Why can’t the police just do operations quietly and if they achieve something, make a big deal about it.”

      I don’t think the police decide what to make a big deal about, I think that’s the role of the media.

    34. Sid — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:20 pm  

      I normally don’t often agree with Faisal Bodi, but I think he’s spot on with this section (from here):

      Which prompts the question of why law-enforcement officials are making so many errors. An obvious answer lies in the decline in standards that has accompanied the anti-terror legislation. So latitudinous are the laws - and so enticing the prospect of bagging a terrorist - that they have never had it so easy to stop and arrest and detain and charge individuals. We should not be surprised if police and prosecuting authorities have jettisoned normal safeguards.

    35. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:21 pm  

      “Why should muslims be worried if “every other community” can’t distinguish between the terrorists and the muslims, thats their problem not ours. ”
      the problem of a much larger community with a small community inevitably has drastic effects on the small community.
      A useful definition of a community is a group of people who dislike everyone else even more than they dislike one another.

    36. Lady Madonna — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:24 pm  

      “Why can’t the police just do operations quietly and if they achieve something, make a big deal about it” … “I don’t think the police decide what to make a big deal about, I think that’s the role of the media”

      Sunny - as a man who purports to live sleep and breathe media you really should know that!

      Your point regaring HuT is a fair one - but no-one can be blamed for the twisting of a situation other than those doing the twisting, in this case HuT. If the government or security services were to try and clamp down on them there would be an even greater outcry. If we are to say - ‘well if HuT had nothing to twist we would have no problems’ then we’ve only placed ourselves in a terrible catch 22.

    37. leon — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:25 pm  

      “I don’t think the police decide what to make a big deal about, I think that’s the role of the media.”

      The police are very big on PR, so I’d assume its a mixture of both.

    38. contrarymary — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:30 pm  

      J0nz - you’re soooo paranoid and the exact sort of person that The Politics Of Fear, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_nightmares] needs to exist and succeed.
      don’t believe everything you see in the newspapers or that comes from the police or government. they lie you see - John Charles De Menezes, ran and jumped the tube barrier did he? er, no he walked and used his oyster card. what a great coup for our intelligence agencies.
      and of course our great government wouldn’t lie to us now would it? do the letters W M D mean anything to you?

    39. Sid — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:43 pm  

      Well you know j0nz. He’s here to ensure the rectoplasm levels on these threads never go too low.

    40. Sid — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:44 pm  

      That’s rectoplasm.

    41. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 3:41 pm  

      John Charles De Menezes, ran and jumped the tube barrier did he? er, no he walked and used his oyster card. what a great coup for our intelligence agencies.
      and of course our great government wouldn’t lie to us now would it?

      Have you ever heard of the term “fog of war”? Also if you believe that “they” “lied”, why do you believe what they have told you since?

      Surely the Menezes case is showing that our Media, Government and Police don’t hide things? By your logic it would have made more sense for them to have lied more and said that he did have a bomb? Same goes for this recent raid, “they” could just tell us that they found something.

      Instead they are honest, and becuase they are you use that as evidence to prove that they are not.

      TFI

    42. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 3:43 pm  

      Also aren’t you also guility of promoting “The Politics Of Fear” when you state that the state and the police routinely lie to us? Doesn’t this generate fear and mistrust of the police?

    43. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 3:59 pm  

      One of the reasons that the security services are making so many mistakes - and I agree with TFI that people should ask themselves whether a genuine mistake, however culpable, is a more plausible explanation than sinister plots or sheer malice - is that they are increasingly aware that they just don’t have a handle on the problem.

      With the risks greater than at any time since the war, the security services are stumbling around in the dark and desperate for anything that will help them predict and prevent.

      After all the talk of backlash and youngsters flocking to blow themselves up perhaps it’s worth remembering Sid’s original point; so far the response has been very moderate and shown more concern than anger, except from the usual blowhards. I heard Ridley’s little rant and the trickle of applause from her posse, but the people questioned afterwards dismissed her as irrelevant and the overall tenor was they were concerned and expected timely answers to pressing questions, but understood that the stakes were high.

      In an ideal world there would be no mistakes, or at least they would be admitted promptly. In reality, between making a mistake and admitting it there is a gap filled by people looking for ways to cover their backs or put someone else in the frame. If that gap is too long, people are right to get seriously pissed off.

    44. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 4:31 pm  

      If that gap is too long, people are right to get seriously pissed off.

      Here, here.

    45. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 4:58 pm  

      Which prompts the question of why law-enforcement officials are making so many errors.

      I’ll tell you why. Because we all know that intelligence being forwarded from Muslim communities is next to nothing. There is a very real reluctance to shop a “brother”. After 7/7 they had to try very fucking hard, because people were not forthcoming. There is a large swell of tacit support for Islamists in the Muslim commnity, or at least a fatalistic apathy.

      Oh and piss off ContraryMary. My colleague was blown to bits on the fucking bus. I would have take the route to Russel Sq on 7th July if I hadn’t sprained my wrist the day before. So don’t call me paranoid. You sound like Simon Jenkins who summised on the morning of 7th July that the Islamic terror threat was imagined. Your rheotoric is offensive and pea-brained.

    46. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:05 pm  

      that this particular operation will cause muslim to feel alienated and isolated, and that is what will cause future terrorism in the Britain. It’s unfortunate, but unavoidable.

      Have you been living in a fucking cave? You do realise that Islamism has intentions and forces of it’s own? And what do you suggest as an alternative, oh wise one?

      You are saying that raiding terrorists… causes terrorism? Maybe you’re right. We should just all convert to Islam and save the hassle…

    47. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:12 pm  

      “You are saying that raiding terrorists… causes terrorism? ”
      No. Raiding nonterrorists- or treating nonterrorists as terrorists- causes them to sympathise with or become terrorists. It’s one of the aims of the terrorists. Ernie O’Malley, the IRA intellectual, in On Another Man’s Wound discussed terrorist tactics in Ireland 1916-22. One thing he nade clear was that one aim of the IRA was to destroy the state forces’ own adherence to legality so that they could claim no moral superiority to their opponents. One of the most important aspects in defeating the PIRA was reforming the police so that it was harder for PIRA to claim to be the “true” forces of law and order.

    48. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:16 pm  

      j0nz I know you’re a bit dim but don’t take the piss mate. Don’t you think that continually harassing any group of people will make them resentful? But I suspect you think the brown kids should gratefully accept whatever punishment doled out to them because they should be “grateful for being allowed in this country”.

    49. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:20 pm  

      Roger, quite simply, I don’t give a fuck about that. Britain has been a haven for Islamic terrorists for too long. You cannot go softly, softly, when you suspect weapons of terror ready to be deployed on the public.

      Oh we don’t want to “upset” the Muslim community by raiding suspecting terrorists. What utter, utter, poppycock.

    50. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:24 pm  

      What about raiding the houses of innocent people j0nz? Is that acceptable too? Where do you draw the line? Should the govt simply round up all Muslims or brown people in order to counteract this threat?

    51. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:26 pm  

      LOL Sunny. Two questions:

      1. How many people have been killed in the name of Islamophobia in the past year?

      2. How many people have been killed in this ocountry in the name of Islam, in the past year?

      Typical card from you Sunny, back to your old ways. Playing the race card. How are the Muslim community being “constantly harrassed”? I know lots of Muslims. They don’t feel constantly harassed.

      Most Muslims, regardless of what you and others like you spout, feel that these terror raids are necessary and unfortunate.

    52. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:26 pm  

      Who’s innocent Sunny?

    53. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:45 pm  

      I know lots of Muslims. They don’t feel constantly harassed.

      We need a middle ground on this j0nz. There are people who play the victim card like the MCB. I’ve always said that. At the same time I also know plenty of Muslims who feel harassed. In fact I know non-Muslim Asians who also feel harassed. What you gonna do about them?

      Who is innocent? The guys of the East London raid. I think it’ll come out sooner or later…. though I could be wrong. I gave the police the benefit of the doubt at the Charles De Menzes shooting. Not this time i’m afraid.

    54. Alison — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:47 pm  

      “What about raiding the houses of innocent people j0nz? Is that acceptable too?”

      Isnt hindsight a wonderful thing Sunny. Would that you had such wonderful powers of ‘deduction’ you could join the security services. Would you be prepared to take the gamble they are ‘innocent’ when presented with evidence to the contrary beforehand Sunny? Do you suppose they raid houses and risk their OWN lives for a laugh? And on what basis do you conclude they are innocent? They tell the truth, hold their hands up and ask for people to understand the circumstances - you’re all over them brandishing the race card. Now whos off on lazy thinking.

    55. bananabrain — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:13 pm  

      we can’t really trust anything at all, can we? i mean, imagine if the initial media coverage was a teensy bit overblown and then the actual evidence didn’t live up to it? who would have thought that journalists and police PRs could get overexcited? imagine if someone made *gasp* a mistake and then *gasp* admitted it? that they took a chance in order to prevent something much, much worse possibly happening? would you take the chance? really? if you had a responsibility for public safety?

      perhaps if we just invited the muslim community to run the country, none of this stuff would happen and everyone would start acting like law-abiding, tolerant, peace-loving citizens. you know, like in pakistan, bangladesh, syria, iran, saudi arabia, iraq, sudan and all those other lovely places to live. although presumably the problems in those countries are down to crusader-zionist influences.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    56. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:17 pm  

      ContraryMary,

      How do you know that De Menezes walked and used his oyster card?

      Your reasoning, if I can call it that, implies that an order came down; ‘What we really need right now is to gratutiously shoot an innocent by-stander.’

      You really have a problem with the concept of human error, don’t you?

    57. typical breh — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:26 pm  

      well they got it wrong HAHA

      and they wonder why some muslims dont cooperate

    58. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:30 pm  

      typical breh,

      Quite likely, but where does the HAHA come into the equation?

    59. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:34 pm  

      Alison - Hindsight would be the Charles De Menzes controversy.

      In the current East London raid, the warning signs are already there with the press talking about suicide jackets, cyanide scares or fertiliser bombs. On top of that we have the desperate clutch at anything that may make up the public’s mind over these people’s culpability.

      That is not hindsight but spotting a consistent trend early on and predicting that this is all going to end in tears. Again.

      Tell me this. At what point does one turn around and say: “the police’s intelligence is not only shite, but making things worse, and helping the trouble makers like Hizb ut Tahrir make their case”?

      Or like the pro-war people, will you keep clinging on to the policy in the vague hope it will lead to some results, rather than saying maybe we need to re-examine how this is being played out.

      Are we supposed to sit here meekly while the police do whatever they want in the name of national security?

    60. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:58 pm  

      Are we supposed to sit here meekly while the police do whatever they want in the name of national security?

      Hilarious. If you had of just came back from an alien planet and read this comment, you would be forgiven if you thought Sunny was referring to systematic executions, torture & kidnap of innocents who are speaking out against the state, as in communist China.

      Your comments are akin to Ken Livingstone comparing Tianeman Square to the poll tax riots. Do the police really “do whatever they want” Sunny? Get a grip, perrlease.

      Aslong as Sunny’s friends don’t start imagining that they are being unfairly harassed by the police, that’s fine. Perhaps they smoke a bit too much ganja. Whatever the reason, they’re off their rocker.

    61. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:59 pm  

      “At what point does one turn around and say: “the police’s intelligence is not only shite, but making things worse, and helping the trouble makers like Hizb ut Tahrir make their case”?”

      You are asking the wrong question. The real question is when will certain muslim communities turn around and start educating 2nd and 3d generation to be valuable citizens of this nation, instead of neglecting them. If we lose our liberties it’s all because of them. If these communities are roughed up - then be it. I have absolutely no sympathy for them. Enough is enough!

    62. j0nz — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:05 pm  

      Spot-on Alison.

      Hear hear Ravi. Some much needed common sense added to the debate, thank god.

    63. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:06 pm  

      >>if we just invited the muslim community to run the country, none of this stuff would happen and everyone would start acting like law-abiding, tolerant, peace-loving citizens

      Well, there is an invitation to muslims to join state agencies like the MI5 or the police. Less of this stuff -on the presumption that this raid was indeed a false call- would then happen. I was quite surprised by some of the comments in the previous thread on this subject - from tones of wariness to outright rejection.

    64. Refresh — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:14 pm  

      The least we can expect is the intelligence to be reasonable if not accurate. As I understood the early reports, based on ‘intelligence’ the house had been under surveilance for a while.

      Most of us would think that was good practise and should have given the Police something of substance. So the raid that followed would have suggested something serious was afoot. But it seems not.

      And now it seems the ‘intelligence’ came from a Police informer and not MI5. MI5 seem to be drawing a distance between them and the Police.

      Incompetence is not to be rewarded with understanding, it doesn’t seem to be coming from MI5.

      Why? There will come a time when it will really matter. The authorities will need all our support.
      The risk, in the meantime is that goodwill is squandered.

      Just now I’ve heard Iain Duncan Smith put forward the idea that extremists are manipulating the authorities (using disinformation) to target innocent families so presumably to cause divisions and sow mistrust. And of course in the process put the Police and MI5 up for ridicule.

      We are all in it together. So alienation of people and communities is pointless. Unless of course there is a political objective to this. A subject on which I will withold judgement for now.

      In a parallel PP thread, we have castigation of muslims for not rushing forward to join MI5. Fear and mistrust of the state is not going to help recruitment.

      Esp. since we are aware there is a case where some have assisted MI5 and still ended up in Guantanamo Bay.

      There are games being played, and I do not like it.

      j0nz, sorry to hear of your colleague/friend, and of course your sprained wrist. But given that you, very early on, used the raid to justify another anti-muslim rant - now you’re using the legitimate reaction to it being a mistake - for another anti-muslim rant.

      I don’t think, like Sunny, you are dim. I think you need serious re-assurances and counselling given your experiences surrounding July 7th.

      And by the way, I have a feeling you are, mistakenly, aiding those that would happily put the Police and MI5 in a position of ridicule.

    65. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:58 pm  

      >>Why? There will come a time when it will really matter. The authorities will need all our support.
      The risk, in the meantime is that goodwill is squandered.

      Yes. In the Canadian case that occurred at practically the same time as the East London raid, here’s what the police did:

      According to a copy of a Crown synopsis viewed yesterday by The Globe and Mail, police have months worth of surveillance, communication intercepts and physical evidence that were amassed before a monitored buy of $4,000 worth of ammonium nitrate fertilizer on Friday. This sting is said to be the final chapter of months of dogged police work, leading to the arrest of 17 suspects.

      http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060607.TERRORFAHIM07/TPStory/

      Looks like the Canadians did their job more competently and the suspects have been promptly produced in court.

    66. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:10 pm  

      >Esp. since we are aware there is a case where some have assisted MI5 and still ended up in Guantanamo Bay.

      Moazzam Beg? That’s almost totally mere speculation isn’t it? Any other cases?
      You have to be scrupulous with the actual facts before you throw statements like that around, Refresh, lest YOU get accused of being one of those that are building fear and suspicion against the state.

    67. Refresh — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:27 pm  

      No hadn’t thought of Moazzam Beg.

      I agree about getting facts straight.

      I was thinking of Bisher al-Rawi and possibly Jamil el-Banna.

    68. Refresh — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:28 pm  

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/01/AR2006040101465_pf.html

      sorry forgot to add the link.

    69. Refresh — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:49 pm  

      From the Independent (online):

      Dominic Grieve, the Conservative home affairs spokesman, said: “I don’t think you can minimise the adverse impact of events like those of the last week. If somebody has their door kicked down at four in the morning it sends out a very negative impression about the nature of our society.”

      He said the raids may prove to have been justified, but if they turned out to be mistaken it would make Muslims feel “confronted and embattled” .

    70. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:47 pm  

      Thank you for the link, refresh. The MI5′s tactics - there’s fair bit of speculation in that article too, but let’s just ignore it for now- appear phenomenally stupid in their informant recruitment schemes!

      I can understand the initial (sound)reasoning behind the approach to these two men; but it could only blow up in their faces after extraodinary rendition and spell at Guantanamo, couldn’t it? The action of MI5 is almost irrational and inexplicable: why go to such lengths for these two men?

    71. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:09 pm  

      The real question is when will certain muslim communities turn around and start educating 2nd and 3d generation to be valuable citizens of this nation, instead of neglecting them

      I prefer to take the middle ground on this again Ravi, which is why I do not take Alison and j0nz arguments that Muslims should take whatever the intelligence services hand out to them.

      Unless the intelligence services and police are criticised for fucking up, then they will continue to progress on the same path - similar in the way the Bush administration does not accept criticism and has continually screwed up in Iraq.

      Not just that, such bungled raids, if it does turn out to be totally bogus, reduces the confidence in the police even more.

      Have a look at some of the black forums - the kids there have very little faith in the police. And I mean miniscule. During the Birmingham riots black groups were planning to take militias up there to protect black people and businesses because they had no faith in the police. This isn’t because of terrorism, its because of years, actually decades, of police harassment of the black communities.

      I don’t want to go down that route too, where every brown person is also a terrorism or crime suspect and we’re told that unless we quietly take the abuse handed out to us then we’re traitors to the state. Fuck that.

    72. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:12 pm  

      #70. Fair enough, Sunny.

    73. Ravi Naik — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:42 am  

      “I don’t want to go down that route too, where every brown person is also a terrorism or crime suspect and we’re told that unless we quietly take the abuse handed out to us then we’re traitors to the state.”

      By taking the middle-ground you assume that both positions are symmetric. And they are not. It’s far easier to (a) neglect the youth, (b) blame it on a racist society, (c) do a massive attack… than to prevent an attack from happening out of hundreds of leads and information they receive every day. What we are asking the police is to find those terrorist needles out of millions of muslims that live in this country. And to make things worse, they live among us and have respectable lives.

      If muslims were smarter, they would help security forces improve intelligence and communication. But because they can’t think outside their communities… and god forbid, help other communities with this terrorism problem which they created in the first place… they rather whine when the police screws up.

      And it’s not about being passive and taking it like a good paki, Sunny. It’s about having an active role in fighting this problem. And so far I see little of it.

    74. jamal — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:06 am  

      Its all still worrying. No proper evidence (as ofar as we know), but a number of injuries. In the melee, Blair is aparrantly backing the raid. This is so confusing. No wonder the police and government are not trusted.

    75. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:22 am  

      Ravi, you must not spout such unsubstantiated rubbish. Its not appropriate for the PP site.

      “And so far I see little of it.” Is that the basis of your assertions, that YOU don’t see it?

    76. mirax — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:48 am  

      >But because they can’t think outside their communities… and god forbid, help other communities with this terrorism problem which they created in the first place…

      And I have a problem blaming the entire muslim community for *creating* the terrorism problem. Come on Ravi, don’t get carried away.

    77. Sunny — on 9th June, 2006 at 4:47 am  

      If muslims were smarter, they would help security forces improve intelligence and communication. But because they can’t think outside their communities…

      You seem to be taking the MCB position in consigning all Muslims to the same acting and thinking block.

      Let’s take an example. My brother looks quite religious - has a full beard and turban etc. He is a bit political too, has frequently talked with his mates about Indian govt abuses of 1984.

      Tomorrow some Sikh idiot blows up a train in London, and the police go around his house in the middle of the night and arrest him etc etc. How do you think he and I will feel? Am I supposed to castigate him for now doing enough to catch the terrorists and help the Indian govt (let’s assume they’re also involved in the investigations) in catching these people, when he doesn’t even know them?

      Your reasoning is absurd. Granted many Muslims are insular, but many others are not. Some wallow in a victim mentality, and others do not. I have some highly religious Muslim mates who have nothing but hatred for these terrorists. Am I supposed to accept it if the police arrest him tomorrow? What rubbish. I expect j0nz to fall for this line of thinking, but not you.

      Yes people need to take an active role in fighting this problem. I agree with you. But most Muslims, like anyone else, just want to keep their head down and carry on with life. Getting involved in politics is a bitch you know. And I don’t mean just reading the off leaflet. I mean getting involved with the police and intelligence - that is a big step.

      If the police fuck up, and continue to fuck up, we have a right to criticise. They are also here for us as Britons.

      I understand your frustration, partly, and I’m writing an article on that, but I think you’re being too vindictive.

    78. Amir — on 9th June, 2006 at 6:41 am  

      Sunny,
      For the first time ever, I can quite confidently say that you’re having a bad thread. Very rarely do you sound like George Monbiot on Moonbat pills, but on this occasion an exception has arisen. Now let me be a proper bastard and Fisk you on a couple of points:

      (I) Tell me this. At what point does one turn around and say: “the police’s intelligence is not only shite, but making things worse, and helping the trouble makers like Hizb ut Tahrir make their case”?

      This is ill-informed for two reasons: (a) Firstly, you don’t know enough about the intelligence to make an informed evaluation [nor do you pay lip-service to the dozens of foiled plots that go unreported in the media]; and (b) the purpose of a police force is to uphold the law and not to play politics. Excluding Ian Blair and the media-savvy Chiefs, most coppers don’t give a shit about ‘playing into the hands’ of a political organisation – Hizb-ut-Tahrir or otherwise. MI5 and the counter-terrorism squad analyse raw data, follow-up leads (moles or snouts or witnesses), and go on the hunt for clues and suspects. They leave the cosmetics (i.e. spin) to politicians, lobbyists, intellectuals, and community leaders. If British Police obsessed about their ‘street cred’ and the rule of unintended consequences, then they’d never be able to make tough decisions or cope with catch-22s. Generally speaking, you fail to mention any real alternative to the decision that was made: ‘better be safe than sorry’. I, for one, have no problem with this.

      (II) Or like the pro-war people, will you keep clinging on to the policy in the vague hope it will lead to some results,

      Ask yourself this: who penned the anti-Rumsfeld masterpiece ‘The Assassins Gate’? George Packer (pro-war). Who’s responsible for the hyper-critical columns on Iraq in Newsweek? Fareed Zakaria (pro-war). And what about the latest polemic on Neoconservatism? Francis Fukuyama (pro-war). You recently cited an anti-Bush article in the Times. It’s author: Andrew Sullivan (pro-war). I could go on and on. Paul Berman? Pro-war.

      (III) Are we supposed to sit here meekly while the police do whatever they want in the name of national security?

      That depends: if they’re abducting people in the middle of the night, or holding suspects in prison cells for a sinister length of time, or shooting down innocent civilians without so much as a flicker – then the answer is ‘No’. We should stand up and do something. But for now, let us reserve judgement. No one was killed. An inquiry has yet to take place. We don’t know all of the details. These anti-terror raids were common during the IRA years and took place within the jurisdiction of old laws [bar the cases of torture lite in prisons: see the Compton report]. In fact, they’re frequently used against drug dealers and gangsters.

      (IV) What about raiding the houses of innocent people j0nz? Is that acceptable too? Where do you draw the line? Should the govt simply round up all Muslims or brown people in order to counteract this threat?

      Okay, now this is a bit silly. The raid was hardly identical to the ones in Italy during the 1960s or in Peru during the 1990s. And, what’s more, you’re playing the race card. Unashamedly so. What do you propose? That we make racial and religious profiling illegal? No exceptions – not even in the most obvious of scenarios (immigrant Albanians = pimps, radical Moslems = terrorists)? Don’t misconstrue my words: I’d violently protest at the sight of a young Moslem being arrested for no other reason than him wearing a prayer cap. But Sunny, use your common sense… where will you find violent pedagogues and hate-mongers… Synagogues? Churches? No: Saudi-run Mosques. Should Blair and Brown spend more public money on surveying Zoroastrians and Jehovah’s Witnesses for no other reason than to appear ‘fair’? Political correctness gone mad.

      Amir

    79. Sunny — on 9th June, 2006 at 6:53 am  

      You’re not fisking me well enough Amir, try again.

      1)
      an informed evaluation
      I go by the media cock-ups as mentioned above and by Charles De Menzes. And as I have stated, IF this turns out to be another cock-up then we have a right to criticise.

      unreported in the media
      How do you know they do?

      uphold the law and not to play politics
      Stop being so naive.

      Generally speaking, you fail to mention any real alternative to the decision that was made:
      Better intelligence and liaising with Muslims.

      2) Ask yourself this: who penned the anti-Rumsfeld masterpiece
      Oh please! They came after the anti-war people (who were against Bush’s way of looking at things, rather than those pro-jihadis) had already said the same.

      3) An inquiry has yet to take place. We don’t know all of the details
      Do try and remember the police deliberately hindered the IPCC during Charles De Menzes enquiry.

      4) And, what’s more, you’re playing the race card. Unashamedly so.
      I’m pointing out this will affect brown people more and Muslims more. This is stating the facts. Like it’s a fact black people get stopped many more times than white people.

      Political correctness gone mad.
      Better intelligence, better foreign policy, and ignoring the community leaders, and looking at integration and economic deprivation better than a simply haphazard way.
      Tony Blair played all this lip service to “learning from 7/7″ last year and it amounted to almost nothing. Everyone consulted felt cheated. The least the govt could do is have some sense.

    80. Amir — on 9th June, 2006 at 6:53 am  

      Kismet Hardy,
      Was that too long?

    81. Katy Newton — on 9th June, 2006 at 8:04 am  

      “the least the government could do is have some sense”

      :-D

    82. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 10:14 am  

      Amir - Is this fisking gone nuts (now I know what fisking means):

      “But Sunny, use your common sense… where will you find violent pedagogues and hate-mongers… Synagogues? Churches? No: Saudi-run Mosques. Should Blair and Brown spend more public money on surveying Zoroastrians and Jehovah’s Witnesses for no other reason than to appear ‘fair’? Political correctness gone mad.”

      Synagogues - yes; Churches - yes; Gurdwaras - yes; Hindu temples - yes.

      Just depends where you look. And who the target is.

      Remember Rabi Kahane in New York; and dare say there are others who follow his line of hatred. And I dare not mention the attitudes that prevail in groups within Israel.

      Churches - remember that fellow who wants Chavez murdered, and fundamentalist Christians in the US.

      Gurdwaras - been to some lately, seen the pictures of their martyrs from 1984. An indication surely of the bitterness that is still there.

      Hindu Temples - don’t tell me there are none supported and run by the Modi’s BJP crowd, yes even here in the UK.

      What I think you meant was you don’t know of any examples here in the UK. Otherwise you are far too sweeping.

      But its a failing to think there isn’t extremism in the other houses of worship. I’d like to think in very few - as there is in a very few mosques.

      However the difference is that the others aren’t the subject of your ire.

      No one has advocated that the Police should not be supported - quite the opposite. But don’t let them screw it up again!

      As for those pro-war charcs. now critical of US overseas adventures - Sunny is accurate, only now and only after having been proven wrong. Just as it will be when people don’t heed the dangers of dawn raids on poor intelligence combined with incompetence.

      When’s your next long shift?

    83. Ravi Naik — on 9th June, 2006 at 10:18 am  

      “You seem to be taking the MCB position in consigning all Muslims to the same acting and thinking block.”

      If a raid in one individual’s house is seen as an attack on the whole muslim community, then I guess I can talk about ‘muslim’ community and its faults, and hope that you understand that I am talking about the more insular and troubled communities where terrorism breeds.

      The joy of being a liberal is that you try to find the common ground: we do not believe in absolute truths and so there is a great space for discussion and debate. I do understand your concern about your brother. I also have a brother and I fear for his safety if 7/7-type attacks are not foiled. Not that he might be blown up in a million pieces. I fear that he might be verbally or physically assaulted by someone to vent his anger.

      Shit doesn’t just happen in muslim communities, it happens becase there is an incredibly well-organised network of misinformation, jihadists propaganda, and people that are trained to carry out these missions. All under the nose of parents and community leaders who seem to neglect this problem and instead, shift the problem to the police by saying it’s making its youth angry. I tell you why they are angry. They are taught to be insular and to think about themselves as muslims and not as british or european, and they are not taught how they can be valuable assets to this society, just like the rest of us. Furthermore, they are told that the society and the world is anti-muslim, that everyone hates them because of their beliefs. So yes, terrorism is a muslim problem because of negligence and I blame community leaders and parents for letting rogue and radical individuals within their communities to teach their youth.

      Again, I don’t mean the whole muslim community. I am talking about the more insular troubled communities. And all it takes is four bastards to ruin it for the rest of us. I understand that I sound like an anti-muslim, but I call it tough-love.

    84. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 10:32 am  

      4) And, what’s more, you’re playing the race card. Unashamedly so.
      I’m pointing out this will affect brown people more and Muslims more. This is stating the facts. Like it’s a fact black people get stopped many more times than white people

      Bollocks Sunny. Don’t play the race card, it’s lame. You don’t play the race card with Ravi, for obvious reasons.

      Like it’s a fact black people get stopped many more times than white people.

      Sunny I really don’t want to get into a debate race with you, it seems that’s exactly what you want, so that you can dismiss me as a racist. It’s also a fact that

      1. Terrorists in this country are nearly always Muslim, and of South Asian descent.

      “I’m not playing the race card, I’m just stating a fact”

      2. Black people are more likely to be arrested for robbery, in London than other races. 72% of people arrested (for robbery) by the Metropolitan Police in London are black. Perhaps they should start randomly arresting Peruvians or Innuits to keep race quotas up?

      “I’m not playing the race card, I’m just stating a fact”

      3. White people are more likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack. They’re hardly going to detonate in a Tower Hamlets place of worship.

      “I’m not playing the race card, I’m just stating a fact”

      Better intelligence, better foreign policy

      Better intelligence, how Sunny? How are the intelligence services supposed to get better intelligence if Muslims aware of extremist activites have no desire to alert the authorities?

      Better foreign policy?

      What the fuck? You mean Iraq? Where 72-76% of Muslim Iraqis support the decision to remove Saddam? It’s just a band wagon for the moonbats.

      Quite simply in the words of Trevor Phillips, if you don’t want to abide by the rules of this country, then go and live somewhere else. It’s pretty simple. This is not racist, it’s common sense.

      I am proud of this multi-racial Britain, but I am not proud when the Muslim communities complain about terror raids (in conjunction with every other oppurtunist see’s Bush & Blair as the enemy of the free world) - it’s only the Muslim commnuties that can stop the terror in the first place. I have nothing against everyday Muslims as I have stated over and over again.

      What I do have a problem with is people opposing the Police for acting on intelligence of terrorist plots. The Police do a terribly difficult job as do MI5.And you of all people Sunny would be wise to show some support for the people that are trying to protect our loved ones. You don’t even know any of the facts yet.

    85. Jai — on 9th June, 2006 at 10:54 am  

      =>”1. Terrorists in this country are nearly always Muslim, and of South Asian descent.”

      Not all the 7/7 bombers were “South Asian”, and none of the people who attempted a follow-up attack were. Neither was the so-called “Shoebomber”. Also, the “radical preachers” who have so often been involved in inciting hatred against the West amongst UK-based Muslims have disproportionately been of non-South Asian background.

      Of those who are from an Asian background, I’d be interested to know exactly how many of them are of Indian, Nepalese, or Sri Lankan descent.

    86. Jai — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:01 am  

      =>”Gurdwaras - been to some lately, seen the pictures of their martyrs from 1984. An indication surely of the bitterness that is still there.

      Hindu Temples - don’t tell me there are none supported and run by the Modi’s BJP crowd, yes even here in the UK.”

      This analogy is only relevant if “granthis”/”raagis” in the former and Hindu priests in the latter regularly hold sermons/preaching sessions where they actively promote hatred against people from different religions, along with lecturing on international political events involving co-religionists and preaching virulent hatred and disloyalty against the United Kingdom and the West as a whole, on social, cultural and political grounds.

      When was the last time anyone encountered such behaviour within gurdwaras and mandirs here in the UK ?

    87. Ravi Naik — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:04 am  

      “3. White people are more likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack. They’re hardly going to detonate in a Tower Hamlets place of worship.”

      I agree with everything you said in #83, j0nz - except this point. Remember that terrorists in 7/7 attacked two tube stations where large muslim communities reside. And if they were ‘racists’ and wanted to protect their own, they would have selected better tube-stations than Edgware Road.

      Furthermore, it is us - not white people - that have to endure the fear, the verbal and racial abuse and intimidation months after this sort of attack. So, the effect falls much heavely on us than to white folk.

    88. Jai — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:12 am  

      Ravi,

      =>”Furthermore, they are told that the society and the world is anti-muslim, that everyone hates them because of their beliefs.”

      That’s probably a bit of a generalisation, but I agree that it is a problem amongst some sections of the Muslim population and a reason for their subsequent attitudes and behaviour. The reality, of course, is that most people generally don’t give a damn about their religious beliefs, as long as they’re not breaking the law and as along as they don’t forcibly impose these beliefs on anyone else or behave in a nasty manner towards others.

      I think this somewhat self-centred attitude ends up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy — if you are excessively defensive in the manner you’ve accurately described, then that causes you to react in a certain negative way towards others (because you’re already making assumptions about the other party’s mindset and motivations), which in turn will cause the other party to counter-react negatively, which of course will apparently prove your point and justify your original premise about the other party’s alleged hostility towards you. Like I said, it’s a circular argument. I think this attitude is also a major reason for many of the larger-scale international problems involving some Muslim nations too (along with the jihadists, of course).

    89. Jai — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:19 am  

      =>”3. White people are more likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack. They’re hardly going to detonate in a Tower Hamlets place of worship.”

      As Ravi said, this is not necessarily true. The wannabe jihadists currently on trial in London planned to attack the Bluewater shopping centre (along with the Ministry of Sound etc as we all know). Bluewater is close to a high-density Punjabi area and is usually full of Asian visitors, admittedly a greater proportion from a non-Muslim background but there are often Asian Muslims there too.

      Regarding the 2 brothers recently arrested in Forest Gate, if they really did possess a chemical weapon and planned to detonate it within the East London area (obviously we don’t yet know if either of these were actually the case), casualties would have included a very large number of non-whites indeed, including Asians from all religious backgrounds.

    90. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:22 am  

      “This analogy is only relevant if “granthis”/”raagis” in the former and Hindu priests in the latter regularly hold sermons/preaching sessions where they actively promote hatred against people from different religions, along with lecturing on international political events involving co-religionists and preaching virulent hatred and disloyalty against the United Kingdom and the West as a whole, on social, cultural and political grounds.”

      Jai, this proves my point - its not correct to say there isn’t extremism being promoted under the guise of faith within the various religions. In other words the danger is we will accept/acquiesce/tolerate extremism as long as it doesn’t affect us. Or targets our lifestyle.

      When was the last time anyone encountered such behaviour within gurdwaras and mandirs here in the UK ?

      That is an interesting question - and perhaps you should add - whether people are encountering this where others outside of the UK/West are the targets of the hatred. And I guess it doesn’t just have to be from places of worship.

    91. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:28 am  

      Well yes you are absolutley they do not kill in the name of race. People of every creed and colour were the victims…

      They did detonate in two stations with Muslim communties near by.

      I’m just talking statistically, i.e. the largest percentage were white going by this - just over half I would say.

      I was just trying to make a point with Sunny: Let’s not bring race into it

    92. Alison — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:46 am  

      Sunny -

      You are suggesting the police cant now act on any intelligence provided unless its guaranteed or should somehow magic up the TIME to weigh up the legitmacy of whats presented to them. I’m sure theyd be delighted to hear from you as to how they do that.

      Risk assessment isnt something the security services take lightly. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont and cant afford to simply shrug their shoulders at ANY intelligence given them for fear of ‘upsetting’ the local community.

      The ‘inconvenience’ to many families would be greater if they left it to chance and infinitely more tragic.

    93. Jai — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:47 am  

      Refresh,

      =>”That is an interesting question - and perhaps you should add - whether people are encountering this where others outside of the UK/West are the targets of the hatred.”

      As far as I know, such behaviour is unheard of within UK-based gurdwaras and mandirs, unless someone else here has direct first-hand experience of this and can correct me.

      I understand the point you’re trying to make, but with all due respect all this is just speculation. I have certainly never heard of priests (I used the term loosely in the case of Sikhism) in gurdwaras and mandirs here preaching hatred against the West or giving diatribes against members of other religions. They usually just talk about religion-related historical (and/or mythological, in the case of Hinduism) events, along with singing kirtans/bhajans etc. One could, in fact, even suggest that they are perhaps a little too apolitical.

    94. Arif — on 9th June, 2006 at 11:51 am  

      I don’t think there is much real disagreement in the fisk-fest above. Yes the police have a hard job. Politicians will be blamed whatever they do. Things can’t be predicted. Things get out of hand. People react to these things. People also over-react. It is worthwhile making sure people don’t over-react. Some do this by preaching to them to trust the police as much as they trust them. Some do this by telling them it is their fault in the end anyway for not confronting extremists. And, as Sunny suggests, you can do this by ensuring the police and other accountable bodies are honest and open about their mistakes and show how they will try to avoid them in future, or why it could not be avoided.

      The core issue for me is a breakdown of trust. I am not trusted because I come from a community where a lot of people are angry and believe that the foreign policies of the most powerful governments (Muslim and non-Muslim-led alike) show a pattern of callousness towards Muslims resulting in many deaths. A few people are attacking innocent civilians in those countries, and I could be one of them. People are very sensitive to this possibility and it is difficult for me to express any sympathy for human rights of Muslim people without non-Muslim people interpreting it as covert support for anti-western terrorism.

      I don’t want to feed those fears, and I am more interested in getting fellow Muslims to enlarge their own sympathy for human rights beyond the human rights of fellow Muslims and fellow Brits. I assume people in other communities do the same. But the tendency, when you feel threatened, to care more for those people you share an identity with, is probably just part of being human.

      I can’t remove the sense of threat, because Muslims are also sensitised to expressions of these threats. Expressions of selective sympathy (eg for victims of non-State terror in western countries) or exasperation that Muslims can’t put their own house in order are seen as covert support for Muslim oppression.

      Both sides face real threats. Both sides have people who want them talk it up and some who want to talk them down. I assume people who want to talk them up think they are being responsible in addressing real issues, but are suspected of being war-mongers by those who want to talk it down. Those who want to talk it down probably think they are being constructive by reducing threatening behaviour but are suspected of putting their heads in the sand by others.

      I’m probably a talk it donwner - I think right now, even paying lip-service to one anothers’ concerns is a start to talk about things, without getting us into trenches feeling threatened and sensitive. The way the guy who was shot and the police are handling this seem to recognise this. Both are showing concern for the others’ fears and I think the way Muslims can protect themselves from further threats is to back up Abdul Kahar in understanding the police raid and being eager to provide the police with information, so that the police do not feel so embattled and seek to throw more mud at us. Maybe eventually they will start to see us more as we would like to be seen.

      I also have a bad taste in my mouth from this raid, and feel wary of the police, but getting carried away by my emotions will just feed the same dynamic. People will still deny we are being victimised, because most aren’t so sensitive to threats to Muslims as Muslims are. They won’t empathise with those threats however loudly and tightly we cling to our self-image of victimhood. But if we aren’t able to show faith in their humanity, why expect them to show faith in ours? To get out of this dynamic we need the maturity to recognise their fears and take them seriously however much it adds to the bitter taste in our mouths that our fears are dismissed. It might not be a quick solution, but at least it’s an alternative to making things worse.

    95. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:06 pm  

      Jai,

      I have no reason to focus on any of them. The generalisations that Amir used are utter rubbish, and it cannot go without response.

      I never actually said there was this sort of preaching going on in the Gurdwaras - just that there is resentment (and I pass no judgement on the merits).

      And you obviously concluded that I was implying that hate filled sermons were the norm. NO - but it did the trick. That is the basis of Amir’s contribution above.

      And in very many cases sermons at mosques are very gentle affairs - almost sleep inducing. Like most places of worship. And I’ve been to Gurdwaras, Hindu temples, Churches, Quakers’ meetings etc.

      (Note to self: Must go and visit a synagogue, and bhuddist temple).

    96. Jai — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:16 pm  

      Refresh,

      This is an interesting article (taken from the Sepia Mutiny blog) regarding the situation of mosques over in Canada, especially in light of the recent arrests over there. I don’t know how accurate this is, but I thought you might find it interesting reading anyway:

      http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1149630611454&call_pageid=968256290204

    97. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:30 pm  

      Good article Jai.

      Very political without being political.

      I’m not sure if its actually representative of many mosques. I think he referred to a rally - pseudo-religio-political rally by the sounds of it.

      However, I am much more interested in the prevalent view which is rarely debated - but believe widely held.

      And that is - there is more of Islam in the west than in the east. And that the return to the core (progressive) Islam will come from the West. By that lets not get carried away and start justifying a ‘Western Jihad’ on Islam.

    98. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:53 pm  

      Hi,

      Lets put this into perspective. No one on this board knows anything about the raid other than what we have read. There are many people on this board that believe everything they read is fiction unless it fits in with one of their mad theories.

      a) The police wanted to punish some Muslims
      b) The police acted on misinformation
      c) The police acted incompetently on good information

      Now I don’t think that (a) was the cause, I don’t think that (c) is right either. I firmly believe that they had bad information.

      Considering what a publicity coop this has been for Respect and HuT etc, one wonders if it was deliberate misinformation.

      If this was deliberate misinformation, then we have a really big problem.

      Cheers,

      TFI.

    99. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:57 pm  

      You missed (d) Incompetently on misinformation.

      And yes we do have a problem - it means you can call some help line and have a family home raided.

      Remember that Asian guy listening to the Clash in a taxi on his way to catch a flight. And based on the lyrics, the taxi driver called the police. The police dragged him off the plane?

      Hilarious.

    100. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:12 pm  

      And yes we do have a problem - it means you can call some help line and have a family home raided.

      Yup.

      Terrible isn’t it? I’ll tell you what they can come and raid my fucking home if it saves people’s lives, brown or white.

      Refresh your are more concerned about the inconvience and anxiety it causes when mistakes are made in trying to raid terrorists, than the actual consequence of terrorism. Despicable.

      This kind of behaviour is anti-British and anti-society. And based on what facts, can I ask?

    101. Roger — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:14 pm  

      Oddly enough, one of the biggest problems the police have is a result of their getting public realations training. Years ago the average police spokesman obviously wasn’t trained in public speaking, inadvertently made it plain when they were ignorant and came across as honest but stupid. The only result of all the PR training is that they sound like liars. Often enough- with the leaks to selected journalists and misinformation on an unattributable basis- they are liars. Apart from the quality and kind of information they receive it would be a good thing if the police never said more than they can be sure of to the public. If they don’t know something, have spokesmen say they don’t know. If something seems to have gone wrong, say so and look to see what went wrong and why and how and what they’re doing about it and announce it quite formally without any “spin”.
      One result of government by PR is that every public service seems to be less concerned with doing what it’s supposed to do than with persuading people it is doing what it’s supposed to do. The other thing- which you would think people would have learned by now- is that if you put forward a false justification for something people will be even more angry when they learn that that is what you did and will be less likely to believe anything you say in future even if it’s true.
      Back to the particular instance here; the police would do far better if they just said that they had made mistakes. This would happen from time to time but they’ll try to learn how to avoid them in future and apologise to and ask advice from the people concerned and actually do that, rather than blustering and wheeling out the official spokesmen and dropping lies to pet journalists.

    102. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:15 pm  

      There you go again.

      Sunny, can’t you ban j0nz. He’s no longer contributing anything rational to the debate.

    103. Roger — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:17 pm  

      ” I’ll tell you what they can come and raid my fucking home if it saves people’s lives, brown or white.”
      What if it doesn’t?
      What if they could save more lives by thinking things out carefully, asking questions and not making people-however wrongly- feel they are being treated as enemies of the people?

    104. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

      How is this irrational? About half the commentors here are agreeing with my points.

      I strongly disgree with your attitude, and you’re answer is to beg Sunny to ban me? Get a grip.

    105. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:21 pm  

      What if it doesn’t?
      What if they could save more lives by thinking things out carefully, asking questions and not making people-however wrongly- feel they are being treated as enemies of the people?
      Islamic terrorism does not need anybody’s else actions as a pretext for it’s actions

    106. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:21 pm  

      I wasn’t begging. Just my sense of humour.

      Which half?

    107. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:24 pm  

      Let’s get the Police a decent PR company.

      I’m fed up with having to defend the emergency & security services who are paid to protect us regarldess of who we are.

      Mistakes are made. Of course they are. But the hypercritical nature of this debate at PP is saddening, especially when the facts are not known.

    108. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:28 pm  

      j0nz you just don’t get it.

      One thing is for certain - you would not do them justice if the Police hired you for their PR.

    109. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:28 pm  

      *and before some smart alec jumps in, if there had of been a chemical weapon in that house, their actions could have potentially saved scores, maybe hundreds of Asian/Muslim lives

    110. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:30 pm  

      And yes we do have a problem - it means you can call some help line and have a family home raided.

      That is a massive over simplification and not true. Of course there is no phone line that allows you to do this. I challenge you to find this number and setup a raid on someone that you don’t like, thus proving me wrong.

      Our ROOT problem is these upset, aggressive young Muslim men drunk on Jihad murder videos unable to cope with the world in which they live because of perceived injustices to people in other parts of the world who that in return don’t give a damn about them back.

      These kids are getting so upset that they are committing mass murder of English people on our streets.

      Did you forget about this problem Refresh? or is the murder of English people something that is to be encouraged?

      TFI

    111. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:33 pm  

      Than oh so holier than though Refresh. You’re boundless hindsight know’s no bounds!

      Please answer these questions:

      How you would have responded if they had of found a chemical vest capable of mass murder?

      And would 250 police officers and shot in the shoulder been over-kill?

      Do you understand the police had no option but to raid the house?

    112. Rakhee — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:38 pm  

      This very debate was on Question Time last night. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/default.stm

      I can see both sides off the debate. The police, in this case, over reacted and are now having to suffer the consequences. They do look foolish and should have handled this in a much better way from the minute it all began.

      However some reactions have been completed ridiculous and unhelpful: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/07/urespect.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/07/ixnews.html

      The job of the police at a time when there are such heightened sensitivities is very very difficult. If they hadn’t have reacted and something worse would have happened then what? It’s an impossible situation and to your point Roger, what do you propose they do? Say no comment when the media are hounding them down demanding explanations? It’s pretty damn difficult.

      I’m not saying that the police are angels. I am saying that some of them are good at what they do and are just trying to do their job. It is often the media and politicians who make this more in to more of a (race) issue than sometimes it needs to be.

    113. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:38 pm  

      j0nz (from the Independent):

      “The swoop on the house in Lansdown Road was ordered after a police informant gave information about the preparation of a portable device containing cyanide that had been built and was ready to be used. Although forensic specialists have been examining the site for almost a week, it soon became evident that they were unlikely to find anything incriminating.”

      What facts are you waiting for? You certainly didn’t wait for facts when you used the raid as a pre-text for your anti-muslim rant (probably within minutes of it taking place). Did you?

      And then an anti-muslim rant for questioning the legitimacy of the raid.

      What next? An anti-muslim rant for even questioning your god-given wisdom?

      Sir you are a charlatan.

    114. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 1:53 pm  

      Yawn. I would appreciate if you could answer my questions in #110 if it’s not too much trouble.

      You are accusing me of being anti-muslim. I challenge you to verify this in anything I have said on this thread. You are a crazy mudslinger! I am an atheist and I reject religion outright. However I am a humanist - human values trump everything else. Sorry about that. We all know who the biggest victims of Islam are around the world - Muslims. Far more Muslims get killed in the name of Islam than do non-muslims. Far more Muslim women get beaten in the name of Islam than non-muslim women.

      You are attempting to shut down my protestations at these attitudes in the same way Sunny did earlier. Lame.

    115. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:00 pm  

      Hundreds of Muslims protest against Jihad carried out in their name

    116. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:19 pm  

      jOnz, you must remember if there was a chemical vest and it went off killing Asians and the police, it would be the fault of the Police.

      Lets see this logic again, the fault of the Iraq War is lies solely at the feet of Tony Bush. The fact that Saddam didn’t back down in the slightest and tried to stare down the train is completely immaterial.

      Lets not forget that the Police are a community that everyone appears happy to demonize.

    117. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:20 pm  

      No one is shutting it down. But I do think we ought to draw it a close. Don’t you?

      Ah what the heck - OK I’ll respond to #110

      “How you would have responded if they had of found a chemical vest capable of mass murder?”

      1. Delighted that no one was killed.
      2. Angry that anyone thought that was a legitimate way to airing grievances - whatever they may be.

      However, I am even more delighted that there was no such vest.

      “And would 250 police officers and shot in the shoulder been over-kill?”

      Given the reported nature of the informant’s report - I’d have expected the area to have been cleared. And given the reported surveillance I’d have expected them to have got it right.

      A shot in shoulder - was pure luck, the lad could have been shot dead.

      “Do you understand the police had no option but to raid the house?”

      Given the reports I’d heard from scientists, it was very unlikely that anyone could have created such a weapon without serious expertise. So they did they have an option. Yes I think they did.

    118. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:23 pm  

      Rakhee, I think we all agreed, very early on, that Yvonne Ridley did no one any favours calling for withdrawing support from the police.

      I guess we don’t need to keep going round and round.

    119. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:34 pm  

      Good point TFI. I think people should be made aware of the ever increasing Policeophobia.

      Policeophobes like Refresh are constantly repeating this anti-police stance. We should stand against this demonisation of the policing commnuity.

    120. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:49 pm  

      Given the reports I’d heard from scientists, it was very unlikely that anyone could have created such a weapon without serious expertise. So they did they have an option. Yes I think they did.

      It is this point that makes me wonder if our police force got f**ked on purpose. If this is the case I hope the informant is currently being flown around in CIA jet looking for a nice location for a spot of waterboarding.

    121. Sid — on 9th June, 2006 at 2:50 pm  

      We should stand against this demonisation of the policing commnuity.

      should’a could’a would’a

    122. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 3:07 pm  

      TFI

      I think I mentioned that Iain Duncan Smith raised that as a possibility earlier in the House of Commons.

      Disinformation - and you may not know where it is actually coming from, so waterboarding might not be an option.

      Glad to see you getting with it, but concerned that you are prepared to countenance torture for an informer getting it wrong.

      Maybe the informer misunderstood what he’d overheard?

      You’ve just opened a can of worms.

    123. j0nz — on 9th June, 2006 at 3:20 pm  

      Maybe the informer misunderstood what he’d overheard?

      I’d like to hear the actual conversation ;)

      “I said let’s delpoy the Chemical Pest control, not Vest!”

      “Damn pig dog rodents!”

      “May Allah destory those rats”

    124. Refresh — on 9th June, 2006 at 3:28 pm  

      j0nz

      Any comments to my #117? Good enough for you?

      I hope not because I am beginning to enjoy this.

    125. Sunny — on 9th June, 2006 at 4:04 pm  

      I think Arif’s last paragraph perfectly summed it up for me. And I agree with Rakhee too.

    126. Roger — on 9th June, 2006 at 6:22 pm  

      “Islamic terrorism does not need anybody’s else actions as a pretext for it’s actions ”
      Islamic terrorism is not a person. It does not act in any way.
      There are terrorists inspired by a variety of factors, including particular interpretations of islam, who practise islamic terrorism, but that’s a different matter.

    127. raz — on 9th June, 2006 at 9:07 pm  

      Lo and behold:

      http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1224314,00.html

    128. mirax — on 10th June, 2006 at 5:29 am  

      So it was a massive cock-up.

      But the attitude of the family affected is admirably gracious.

      >>Family members of the two men arrested asked people from the east London Muslim community not to join the protest, saying it would just be another opportunity for the community to be “portrayed in a negative light.”

    129. j0nz — on 10th June, 2006 at 7:28 am  

      Mirax, yes, reasonably smart since it’s the “Behead those who insult Islam” group who are protesting.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5064454.stm

      http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/

      Fight the fascists! Do not apppease them!

    130. j0nz — on 10th June, 2006 at 7:39 am  

      “Asians” need special training in the police force

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,,1794445,00.html

    131. Amir — on 11th June, 2006 at 4:17 pm  

      Refresh,
      Now, I’d like to respond to a few of your random comments:

      (I) And I dare not mention the attitudes that prevail in groups within Israel.

      What the fuck has Israel’s politics got to do with an anti-terror raid in Britain? In any case, I dare not mention the attitudes that prevail in the Middle East, Sub-Saharan Africa, the Caucasus, and much of Latin America. We can all play this game.

      (II) Churches - remember that fellow who wants Chavez murdered, and fundamentalist Christians in the US.

      The topic of our thread is counter-terrorism in the United Kingdom.

      (III) The generalisations that Amir used are utter rubbish, and it cannot go without response.

      What generalisations are these? Devout Muslims do not think much of Western society – fact. They think it is sexually debauched, ugly and hedonistic, vain, selfish and immoral. I, for one, can empathise wholly with this viewpoint (read this, this, this, and this) Those that do live here tend to respond to capitalism and modernity and secularisation by hiding away from it. They congregate in religious ghettos and increase their numbers via inbreeding and arranged marriages so as to keep their communities ‘pure’ and unfettered by Western influence. To be sure, the vast majority of these Islamic hermits are tolerant and law-abiding British citizens (and very principled too), but the same cannot be said for their alienated children and grandchildren who grow up with an ethno-centric (i.e. anti-British) and supremacist worldview (read this, this, this, and this). To propose that all faiths be treated with equal suspicion is a waste of taxpayers’ money and a waste of MI5’s time. It’s a flight from the facts on the ground.

      (IV) Sunny, can’t you ban j0nz. He’s no longer contributing anything rational to the debate.

      I’m always suspicious of individuals who call for censorship or deletion or expulsion on a political blog. Ironically, you use the concept of ‘rationality’ as a cosh or jemmy with which to beat Jonz, but at the same time you have failed to recognise the ‘irrationality’ embedded within your own request to censor him.

      Amir

    132. Refresh — on 11th June, 2006 at 5:29 pm  

      I think Amir if you read your own post (admittedly trying to address Sunny), it was you who brought in the international angle - eg Peru and Italy.

      To suggest that other faiths do not have their bigots is false. That is the point I make.

      And of course I will resist that a faith should be addressed with suspicion. Which you yourself allude to but then accept the concept.

      Further, to think that irrational bigotry under the guise of faith does not carry from the US to other parts of the globe (as one example) is silly. The same goes for other faiths. And you cannot deny the sheer volume of the bilge.

      You will also note from the rest of my contributions that the key issue that needs to be addressed is to have good intelligence handled competently. Clearly not happening.

      Read Iain Duncan Smith’s views on this. He refers to parallel raids in the UK (allied to the ones in Canada), which have given him great concerns. Also I heard yesterday that based on UK police’s inputs there were raids in one of the Scandanavian countries - nothing found and the victims of the intelligence released.

      So is Blair and Brown spending our money wisely? And who is making our police services the laughing stock?

      As for j0nz - well - having him banned would actually remove any real source of entertainment on PP. In any case you might note it was a joke.

      BTW do you have to use the ‘F’ word? Its so ugly.

    133. Amir — on 11th June, 2006 at 6:14 pm  

      Refresh,

      (I) it was you who brought in the international angle - eg Peru and Italy.

      I was making a comparison of strategies. You, on other hand, were trying to distract us from the recrudescence of Islamic nihilism by alluding to other examples of sub-state violence overseas. That’s a critical difference.

      (III) To suggest that other faiths do not have their bigots is false. That is the point I make.

      Wow? Really? I never knew that. [sarcasm] It’s the intellectual equivalent of saying ‘The sky is blue’ or ‘the grass is green’. We all know about the Tamil Tigers, Irgun, the Stern Gang, Branch Davidians, ANC, Khalsa militants, Aum Shinrikyo, etc. – but it’s highly irrelevant to our discussion. The three major threats to British security are as follows: (a) small arms proliferation, (b) organised crime, and (c) Islamic terrorism. But, of course, there is no place for the latter in your politically-correct narrative, is there? Like an ostrige, you keep your head in the sand.

      (II) do you have to use the ‘F’ word? Its so ugly.

      Okay, fair cop. In future, I’ll only use it in relation to Faisal Bodi – the phonetic ugliness is in keeping with his political views! Or maybe not? The ad hominym technique only goes so far without getting people’s backs up. And yet, paradoxically, I’d say that the occasional ‘fuck’ is neither here nor there [have you ever seen the opening scene to Four Weddings and a Funeral?]. So long as the execution is in keeping with the thread’s topic and is not intended to malign a person’s feelings, I don’t see how it can be deemed wrong.

      Amir

    134. Refresh — on 11th June, 2006 at 9:28 pm  

      Amir

      On the ‘F’-word
      - your choice. My observation.

      Sarcasm not necessary. You amplify my point. And its not irrelevant. Its quite pertinent. Why get obsessed?
      We all have a life to live and we don’t need a regular injection of fear and apprehension.

      With regards of the impact of poor intelligence - what is you response? Do you realise that the ordinary person on the street begins to believe less and less what the government says and now what the police puts out. And I am sure that the Swedish (I think it was them) authorities would ask more questions in future before they raid another of their citizen’s home based on what we tell them.

      Who could have been the sources of the intelligence which made MI5 and others look stupid in the run up to the invasion of Iraq?

      Who do you think is behind the disinformation behind the terror raids?

      How many raids have there been and how many have proven to be proper ie leading to convictions?

      How do you think this affects us as a society?

      And finally, you may think this is unconnected (and perhaps out of the sphere of this thread), how do you think the people of Britain will perceive the US statement on the suicide of the three detainees at Guantanamo Bay - as an act of warfare?

      Thats the quagmire we are all in.

      If you want an action plan we need a coherent position which upholds civil rights (uniformly) here and abroad. We need a simple strategy which outlaws lawless activity whether by state or individuals. And we need to see people accountable in courts of law, local and international.

      What we don’t need is you blaming muslim communities on the basis that they are inbreds; have arranged marriages and do not take an interest in their kids. On these last points, be interested also how other Asians differ.

    135. Refresh — on 11th June, 2006 at 10:04 pm  

      Amir, sorry forgot.

      Add wife-beating to the list.

    136. Amir — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:59 am  

      Refresh,

      (I) You amplify my point. And its not irrelevant. Its quite pertinent. Why get obsessed? We all have a life to live and we don’t need a regular injection of fear and apprehension.

      I don’t amplify your point at all. By refusing to engage in a mature and honest debate about fanatical Islam, you just come across as a bit of an artful dodger. Incidentally, what is this Delphic-like ‘point’ of yours anyway? The idea that terrorism has always existed and will continue to exist in every faith, ideology, community, and sovereign nation? Isn’t this like, err,… obvious? I, for one, would not call it ‘pertinent’. I call it stating the obvious. Only someone with an overflated ego would endow such non-wisdom. You tacitly assume that I know nothing about the history of terrorism, the utility of force, and moral debates concerning the correct use of violence. And you also assume – in conjunction with this trope – that it is wrong to make a fuss about militant Islam in Britain. Still, do you honestly believe that July 7 was a fluke, a one-off, an anomaly, a ‘reasonable’ protest against the Iraq war…etc. Or were there, to use a favourite left-wing phrase, root causes? I, for one, attribute our current state-of-affairs to New Labour’s irresponsible immigration policies, its contempt for tradition and our national culture, and the failure (or rather success) of multiculturalism.

      (II) With regards of the impact of poor intelligence - what is you response?

      There’s no such thing as ‘good’ intelligence. All intelligence is bad intelligence. It’s just a matter of having more pebbles on the pile than nought. The difference between ‘bad’ and ‘badder’ is one of presentation: bad = cherry-picking, sugar-coating, hyperbole and political interference; good = Wertfreiheit (scientific professionalism).

      (III) How do you think this affects us as a society?

      The 250-strong counter-terrorist squad acted like a deranged Frankenstein. This is beyond doubt. But it appears to me that you’re asking the wrong questions – putting a cart before the horse, so to speak. Ask yourself this: in the likely event of another terrorist attack on our shores, what affect will this have on inter-communal fraternity? Its consequences are more-or-less in line with what Samuel Huntington wrote about in The Clash of Civilisations. The end of the Cold War has led to the decline of state control, a failure to supply goods, the creation of surplus arms, and ridiculously high levels of unemployment. The decline of the Soviet Union has put an end to Cold War patronage, leading to a rise in internecine warfare, and – directly related to it – the creation of more particularist identities. The great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of conflict will be cultural. [Incidentally: the auto-critique of Huntington’s work as simplistic or Manichean is a big, fat lie. Amartya Sen and Edward Said, in particular, have never represented his work fairly or accurately. It’s a joke.]

      (IV) how do you think the people of Britain will perceive the US statement on the suicide of the three detainees at Guantanamo Bay - as an act of warfare?

      I’ll comment about this on the appropriate thread – stay tuned.

      (V) What we don’t need is you blaming muslim communities on the basis that they are inbreds; have arranged marriages and do not take an interest in their kids.

      Another insidious case of political correctness – i.e. ‘juvenile delinquents’ become ‘children at risk’, ‘Islamic terrorists’ are patented as ‘victims of capitalism’, ‘forced marriage’ is conceived as a ‘misunderstood tradition’, etc. Basically, you’re trying to impose a discursive straitjacket on less confident/articulate bloggers. A critical debate about culture, pluralism, and citizenship is equated to intolerance, fascism, insensitivity, incivility, chauvinism, imperialism, racism, Islamophobia, and so forth. George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four holds the best-known fictional example of politically-driven language change. Newspeak, a sanitised form of English, is designed to make it impossible to express opposition to the totalitarian Party government. Expressing dissident thoughts, or thoughtcrime, becomes impossible; while the act of making self-contradicting excuses for the ruling powers, or doublethink, is coded into the language itself.

      I shall leave you with a quote of Benjamin Franklin’s: If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed.

      Amir

    137. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 9:54 am  

      Amir,

      I will not be able to respond for a little while, as you have now widened the debate to life, universe and everything.

      The problem is one the one hand you want only to discuss what is ‘relevant’ to the UK, without reference to the wider picture and on the other draw in influences from around the globle current and historical.

      Its also interesting that you use George Orwell as I would think his 1984 supports my argument.

      Start a new thread on the roots of the problem and then we can have some relevance. Most people looking to understand and solve a problem would look at the roots. Which by the way you presume to do when it comes to pointing fingers at a ‘community’.

      Artful dodger - no, looking to deal with the topic in shorthand. Although I could suggest the same of you.

      Here we are discussing raids gone bad.

    138. Refresh — on 13th June, 2006 at 11:29 am  

      Before I forget, must deal with one or two of the points - stating the bleeding obvious. It needs to be stated. The alternative is to go overboard and live in eternal fear.

      The fear would be on all sides.

      ‘forced marriage’ - that is sleight of hand, you’ve changed it from arranged to forced. Decide which one you want to debate. If its forced there is another thread running.

      ‘victims of capitalism’ - or even tools of capitalism, but brain-dead all the same.

      “Basically, you’re trying to impose a discursive straitjacket on less confident/articulate bloggers.”

      - no, I think you are doing precisely that. Your language and sweep does enough to add the intellectual gloss. Nothing wrong with that. I just happen to think it holds no water.

      Clash of Civilisation - question is I guess, whether we should have one or not. At the same time decide who can share what of the planet with whom, and which ones are subservient. Perhaps arranged marriages at the cultural level.

    139. Lady Madonna — on 25th June, 2006 at 3:51 pm  

      The police, Mi5 acted on intelligence in regards to this raid, it turns out that the intelligence was weak and they are lambasted for it.

      The police, (possibly Mi5?) didnt act on intelligence recieved by a man who worked in a bookshop regarding the July 7th bombers and they are lambasted for it.

      And by all accounts if they were to have carried out a raid nothing would have been found and they would have been lambasted for carrying out the raid.

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