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  • Muslims in MI5


    by Shariq
    6th June, 2006 at 4:08 pm    

    Muhammed Abdul Bari was interviewed on Radio 5 Live last night. The beginning was rather ho-hum as Dr Bari went over the usual talk over anger in the community and engaging with the youth. However the conversation perked up when Henry Bonsu asked whether Muslims should answer MI5 ads looking to recruit them.

    Not surprisingly Dr Bari tried to evade the question. However Anita Anand sensed she was on to something and repeated it. This was followed by some more evasion and vague references to the community. Eventually on the third time of asking, Dr Bari managed to put together a somewhat coherent answer.

    He argued that people wouldn’t respond to the police or MI5 if they had trust that they were being treated fairly. By the way, I’m not sure he knows what MI5 is and he didn’t respond to the point that the ads were actually a way of reaching out to the community.

    In any case this is the key question - would working for MI5 in the fight against terrorism be:
    a) Morally neutral,
    b) A noble pursuit or
    c) An unholy collaboration?

    I think there is a difference between providing information to the police, working for the police and working for MI5. As Shazia, a very articulate caller said, unless she was pretty sure that she knew someone was a terrorist she wouldn’t call the police as she wouldn’t want an innocent person to get hurt.

    On the other hand, having a Muslim perspective in MI5 may well be quite useful. For instance if there is intelligence that someone suspicious has been visiting a particular Mosque, it might be helpful if there is a Muslim voice who says that he has been there thinks the imam is quite moderate. Or that what looks suspicious behaviour is actually quite normal during Moharram.

    On the other hand a Muslim may be able to identify some behaviour as suspicious which a non-Muslim might not recognise.

    Of course there is definitely a risk that having some Muslims in the police or intelligence would be used to justify shoddy decisions on the grounds that, “Muslims were privy to the intelligence and they agreed that a raid was justified”. That’s not going to help anyone and hopefully if such a situation were to arise, then the people involved would resign as barristers in the secret tribunals have.

    All in all I think that having Muslims in British intelligence would be positive (provided their were no Ahmed Challabi’s). Having said that, I think that Dr Bari encouraging it would probably have been counter-productive. In any case, I think this it deserves to be debated further.


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    1. more questions than answers »

      [...] For comments, see cross-post on Pickled Politics  [...]




    1. Ravi Naik — on 6th June, 2006 at 4:41 pm  

      I would say that if you feel that working for MI5 is an act of betrayal, then you probably should not live in this country. This is a no-brainer: any terrorist attack commited by muslims will affect us all, as racist attacks tend to increase against brown folk. No point in crying about people being racists and that islam is a religion of peace, if your loyalty is with potential radicals.

    2. ContraryMary — on 6th June, 2006 at 4:50 pm  

      I agree with you Ravi. it’s a no brainer. muslims are as anti-terrorism, and as shocked and saddened by July 7th, as most fair minded people of any religious or cultural persuasion.

    3. Fatwadodger — on 6th June, 2006 at 4:55 pm  

      I agree with Ravi to some extent - but there’s an important qualification here. It’s not about loyalty to radical Muslims but the fear that MI5 and the police don’t have a great track record. I for one wouldn’t want to be the person to have the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes on my concience.

      I don’t think the issue is about patriotism or a sense of Britishness either. There are plenty of white British people who would be uncomfortable working for this government. It’s a matter of doing the right thing. I actually think it’s good that MI5 are trying to recruit Muslims (they are also trying to recruit other minorities). But I don’t think I could do the job - I’d always have an issue with having to obey orders passed down by this government and that’s simply because I don’t trust them.

      So I think the task is to convince us (and by that I mean ordinary people - not just Muslims) that the government and police are competent. If they did that then I would sign up. Sadly I don’t have any radical chums (I seem to offend them) but would be quite happy to shop them in.

    4. sonia — on 6th June, 2006 at 5:25 pm  

      fatwadodger’s got a good point. would we say that if you’re uncomfortable with joining the army you ought not to be living here? hardly

    5. David T — on 6th June, 2006 at 5:28 pm  

      After 9/11 a mate of mine thought “M15 will be needing some urdu and punjabi speakers now. I should apply”

      Then he thought a bit more about it and realised that the pay would be sh1t, and so decided not to.

    6. ContraryMary — on 6th June, 2006 at 5:41 pm  

      but the point is fatwadodger, that if you for example or more muslims did join MI5 then Jean Charles De Menezes wouldn’t have been shot. as there would have been on point information, rather than some foolish surveillance officers equating a man with a swarthy complexion and in a bulky jacket as a suicide bomber.

      if anything it takes a braver person to stand up and be counted and think, I’m going to do something about how my religion or culture is being misperceived and then going straight into the lion’s den.

      to belive it’s possible to effect worthwhile change from the outside, is naive. infiltrate from the inside. that’s what I say! and the same can be said of the institutionally racist police force. until there is a more ethnically, and culturally diverse police force, there will be institutional racism in the police force.

    7. sonia — on 6th June, 2006 at 5:47 pm  

      well all i can say is im surprised MI5 haven’t already got muslims or arabic speakers or what have you speakers. i always wanted to join but thought they’d only have British citizens.

      perhaps they’ll make an exception for me!

    8. leon — on 6th June, 2006 at 5:53 pm  

      They have, they want more though. And Dave T’s mate has a good point, the pay is shit.

    9. Kismet Hardy — on 6th June, 2006 at 5:54 pm  

      The News of the World have a Muslim spy for crying out loud

      Of course they have ‘em in the MI5

      Unless they really have been doing a Team America by morphing westerners into crap terrorist lookalikes?

      But then why get a Muslim spy to coax info out of them when they’ve got plenty they can just torture…

    10. Fatwadodger — on 6th June, 2006 at 6:03 pm  

      Contrary - I get what you’re saying and it’s a real struggle for me. I was actually offered a job with the foreign office when i graduated from university, nearly said yes but couldn’t face working for the government.

      I’m not saying Muslims shouldn’t get involved - you’re making a good point - but personally I’m happier where I am (as a journalist) and in the position to say what I think.

      I can’t help but think that if you are too critical of policy you are just likely to be given the elbow or put in a position where you can’t cause trouble.

      Plus, I’ve seen Spooks and it put me off.

    11. Zak — on 6th June, 2006 at 6:22 pm  

      I’m morally neutral on this…I don’t like the idea of working for intell agencies in any case..simply because I don’t think they are very intelligent!

      Muslims working for non Muslims well historically it’s been done many a time. There are quite a few Muslims working for them now anyways..but when it comes to places like Iraq I’d have across the board issues with it..

    12. bd — on 6th June, 2006 at 6:30 pm  

      Fatwadodger - journalist ? where u brown-nosing ?

    13. ContraryMary — on 6th June, 2006 at 6:30 pm  

      Fatwadodger - I can see where you’re coming from. it’s a difficult, tricky question, and I guess it’s down to the individual on how it impacts on their personal moral compass or need to eat. I’m also a journalist, and enjoy the position of being able to say what I want (to a degree), without the responsibility of a mistake resulting in John Charles De Menezes type incidents.

      I guess it takes a certain kind of person.

      spooks and 24 only glamourized it for me, and made me wish I had pursued a career with the FO when I graduated.

      I’m not muslim, so they won’t want me now )-:

    14. Fatwadodger — on 6th June, 2006 at 6:50 pm  

      bd - eh?

    15. Fatwadodger — on 6th June, 2006 at 6:54 pm  

      contrary mary - maybe you could convert - if you do can you name me? It’s loads of holy bonus points if we get someone to convert.

      Plus some of the most ‘fundamentalist’ muslims (like the jamaican 7/7 bomber and Richard Reid) were converts, so may help you infiltrate ;-)

    16. Roger — on 6th June, 2006 at 7:08 pm  

      “I’m morally neutral on this…I don’t like the idea of working for intell agencies in any case..simply because I don’t think they are very intelligent!”
      The British intelligence services functioned very well in both world wars and not very well the rest of the time for that very reason- the people who served in wartime had better things to do in peace. I don’t doubt that there are muslims- or, more likely, exmuslims- working for MI5, but the main requirement will be knowledge of muslim politico-religious theory and a willingness to spend hours ploughing through turgid theory looking for significant remarks and analysing them. When you think about it the work MI5 does probably doesn’t need much born-muslim input. if you want to infiltrate a group, put in a supposed convert or a spot of blackmail solves the problem.

    17. raz — on 6th June, 2006 at 7:16 pm  

      MI5/MI6 suck anyway. ISI for the win!

    18. Kismet Hardy — on 6th June, 2006 at 7:24 pm  

      I once got into a spot of trouble with a muslim in MFI. See i had her bent over a sofa when a salesperson came along

    19. El Cid — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:13 pm  

      I wanted to join the FO, maybe even MI5, but I failed the fast-track English test straight after university. The fact that I’ve since made a career of sorts using the English language is another matter. Hmmph. Didn’t want the fucking job anyway, the fucking stuck-up ruddy-faced jaw-less public school bunch of fudge-packing cunts. *Let it go El Cid, let it go*

      Pay is shit though, relatively. Whoever said that is chatting the truth. Still, the idea of serving the country like that has its attractions, for me anyway.

    20. Don — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:22 pm  

      You’re right. They trawled for teachers a while back; apparently they thought teachers made good ‘filters’ at recruitment stage - ability to spot a dickhead quickly. It would have meant moving to London and dropping £6K.

    21. Amir — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:25 pm  

      El Cid,
      MI5′s loss.
      But I’d try again if I were you. Shitloads of people get in after a second bite of the cherry.

    22. justforfun — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:26 pm  

      I can’t believe the coincidence -

      Were you also asked for the pronounciation of ‘Chomedley’?

      Bugger of a question - catchs out all the riff raff.

      Justforfun

    23. Don — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:29 pm  

      There was a kid at our school called Featherstonehaugh. He pronounced it Fanshaw. But it’s ok, we beat him up.

    24. El Cid — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:29 pm  

      So how do you pronounce it then?

      El Riff Raff

    25. El Cid — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:30 pm  

      That’s hilarious Don.
      Proper lol

    26. Don — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:31 pm  

      Actually, the village of Featherstonehaugh is in my neck of the woods, we pronounce it Feather stone harf.
      But now I’ll have to kill you, lest you use this to infiltrate MI5 and bring in wooden shoes and popery.

    27. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:36 pm  

      I once got into a spot of trouble with a muslim in MFI.

      MFI?!? Those are the basteads that killed Diana!!! They lowered a cheap garden shed over the car as it entered the tunnel, the driver completely blinded crashed into the pillar. Upon impact the shed was COMPLETELY destroyed (because it was so cheap) leaving a few piles of saw dust that eye witnesses claim to have seen at the time. THESE WITNESSES HAVE SINCE GONE MISSING.

      Some people say that you cannot drive a shed into a concrete block without leaving a door, or some plant pots strewn about. But when the authorities were faced with these claims, they denied it, they said it was ridiculous – THUS PROVING THEIR GUILT!!!

      If you don’t believe this you are an idiot.

      Fools are everywhere.

      TFI

    28. El Cid — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:37 pm  

      There’s a place in-between Islington and Dalston called De Beuvoir.
      I still pronounce it De Beaverz.
      It’s also only 2 years ago that I found out how to pronounce “awry”. For years I had been saying “or-ree”. *cue red face*
      Proper Dago rif raff me.

    29. justforfun — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:38 pm  

      El Cid - You’ll have to dig out the old Harry Enfield tapes as the Chomedly - Warner caracter.

      We had a Featherstonehaugh at college - yep - he was regularly ridiculed. And Kismet would like all the shaved Belvoir jokes.

      Justforfun

    30. Don — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:43 pm  

      Or perhaps it was ‘wooden shoes and pot pourri’. Could England’s religious wars have been a ghastly misunderstanding over naff souvenirs?

    31. El Cid — on 6th June, 2006 at 8:49 pm  

      Blessed are the cheese makers Don

    32. Vikrant — on 7th June, 2006 at 7:50 am  

      Then he thought a bit more about it and realised that the pay would be sh1t, and so decided not to

      Talking of MI5 i right now have a certain book “Spycatcher” written by Peter Wright an ex-MI5 agent which has been banned here (ironically i bought i just few hundred meters from our parliament in Westminster). For all his pains they didnt even pay the poor guy his pensions so he decided to get back at them by bitching about them.

    33. bd — on 7th June, 2006 at 8:48 am  

      Forget MI5, Yvonne Ridley doesn’t even want muslims to co-operating with police.

    34. Vikrant — on 7th June, 2006 at 8:59 am  

      Yvonne Ridley is jihadist groupie… who cares what the old hag thinks…

    35. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 7th June, 2006 at 9:17 am  

      Ridley ain’t no zionist shill that’s for sure. Why should Muslims work for MI5 after being set up by them on 7/7. http://www.julyseventh.co.uk.
      The public are still waiting for evidence the Leeds accused were even in London on 7/7, the case against wouldn’t succeed in a banana republic court room. The word FRAMED comes to mind.

    36. Ravi Nailk — on 7th June, 2006 at 9:45 am  

      “Why should Muslims work for MI5 after being set up by them on 7/7″

      Well, let me ask you this: where is the evidence that they were framed by MI5? Yes, you have none.

      We do have evidence of explosives inside backpacks that were recovered and also the mechanism used for activating them.
      What we have is footage of four murderers getting into a train to London with those backpacks. And we have footage of them a few months earlier doing a dry test run through London’s transport network. And yet, for you it’s all an MI5-zionist conspiracy. Because you never heard about islamist terrorists using suicide bombers. I remember the days where muslims were saying that 9/11 was a zionist conspiracy… that must made Bin Laden quite angry, as he has repeatedly said he was the mastermind. But hey, it’s easier to deny rather than to find the cause of the problem.

      This is not about Bush’s war. This is about an organisation that is gathering information and acting to prevent further attacks. They are real, they kill people and worst - they create an atmosphere of distrust that demonises our people… more than C18 or the BNP could ever wish to achieve.

      I think it was Sunny who said that we should draw a line between racists and non-racists. But that line should also define those that threaten our way of life, our liberties, our security as well as those who demonise our south asian communities. I am afraid muslim radicals are today far more dangerous than any extreme right-wing group.

      The fact that some moderate muslims seem to have a dilemma about this, and you need to ask Dr. Muhammed Abdul Bari three times to get an answer… well, I find that a disgrace.

    37. mirax — on 7th June, 2006 at 9:51 am  

      I find it disturbing that some British muslims and their leaders appear divided over the invitation to join the MI5 and worse, that irresponsible elements like the MPACUK, Ridley and the ranter at #15 are building up resentment against the law enforcement agencies. The dangers of holding aloof due to an overwhelmimg sense of grievance and victimhood are that you bring even more mistrust and mistreatment upon yourselves.

      Compare with this. In Singapore, all males have to undergo 2.5 years of compulsory national service. However muslim males have right from the inception of NS in the 70′s NOT been allowed to serve in the armed forces, airforce or Navy. They are instead given soft jobs in the civil defence force. The discrimination has been open and the government tries to (unfairly) justify it in terms of pragmatism: it acknowledges that malay muslims will feel naturally conflicted in the event we fight a war against other malay muslims from m’sia or Indonesia and wants to spare them this dilemma. This was way before the rise of ummah-identity politics. The problem was that the muslim community did not raise an outcry against the discrimination, with quite a few accepting this shoddy reasoning! I never understood why they were passively consenting to be regarded in effect as a fifth column. They raised many other, imo, peripheral issues, relating to language and religion but missed out on this most blatant affront to their status as fellow citizens.

    38. mirax — on 7th June, 2006 at 9:55 am  

      note, the s’pore government has *relaxed* its no-muslim in the military policy slightly in recent years. A few highly screened muslims are inducted into the elite services now.

      Btw muslims form 15% of the population here.

    39. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 7th June, 2006 at 10:15 am  

      Let me ask you, where is the evidence the accused were even in London on 7/7, there is none because they weren’t. Am I supposed to believe those lying media whores who are either paid to lie or have not got the stones to do a proper investigation. Khan’s Dad was on Newsnight saying his son was no suicide bomber, I believe him not Loony Toony Bliar.

      http://j7truth.blogspot.com/

    40. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 7th June, 2006 at 10:19 am  

      Ravi, are you really so ignorant about 911 you still think it were orchestrated by some silly man will a long beard living in a cave in Afghanistan? what a doil.

      http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

    41. Kismet Hardy — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:06 am  

      Where’s the evidence, you silly, silly man.

      Don’t you know that once anything you say can be labeled as conspiracy theory, you lose all credibility?

      Now a bloke sitting in a cave using power of thought to brainwash thousands of muslims to give up their cosy little lives and blow themselves up wherever they can to teach a misunderstood god-fearing American president a lesson… now that’s what we call the truth

      When Jesus was impaled on the cross, his blood turned into water you know. That’s truth too.

      Framing unseen enemies like communists and al-qaeda to further the cause of western capitalism, pah! Take your conspiracy theory pish tosh to Mohammad Al-Fayed

    42. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:16 am  

      Call me whatever names you want, not my fault the government is lying to you every day and you’d rather live in denial that join the dots and see what’s really going on.

    43. Kismet Hardy — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:22 am  

      I fear you’ve missed the irony there old chap :-(

    44. Kismet Hardy — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:36 am  

      Dude, I happen to agree with you. No one can give me any evidence to the contrary that on G8 day - the very day America would look like arseholes for their pathetic record on environment and Africa and badly needed to remind the world that they’re superman when it comes to terrorism - it wouldn’t be possible for an organisation like CIA (what else do they do?) to dupe four foolish Asians to be in London at the same time.

      But, hey, I’d rather carry on watching the next riveting sequel to Pregnant Donkey Sucker

    45. Kismet Hardy — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:48 am  

      Actually, I’m reading Rogue State by William Blum

      ‘More than 15 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, America is still saving countries and peoples from one danger or another. The scorecard reads as follows: Between 1945 and 2005 the US has attempted to overthrow more than 50 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements struggling against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US has caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair’

      And yet the donkey continues to give me the horn

    46. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:54 am  

      utter drivel, how old are you?

    47. Ravi Naik — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:58 am  

      “the very day America would look like arseholes for their pathetic record on environment and Africa and badly needed to remind the world that they’re superman when it comes to terrorism”

      And what better way to show your war on terrorism is working and that the US and UK government are doing a good job in protecting us… than having 4 guys commiting acts of terrorism in the heart of London. Yes, it makes a lot of sense, Kismet. Hope my sarcasm doesn’t slip by you, my friend.

      “it wouldn’t be possible for an organisation like CIA (what else do they do?) to dupe four foolish Asians to be in London at the same time.”

      How do you actually dupe four foolish Asians to carry a backpack full of explosives and kill themselves?

    48. Kismet Hardy — on 7th June, 2006 at 12:04 pm  

      Where’s the evidence, you’ll never win the war with a plug up your buttocks. Chill not kill, as my schoolmistress is fond of saying

      Ravi, I hear you loud and clear. But how do we know the backpacks didn’t have gym gear in them, hm? We only know the explosives were in there because that’s what we were told.

      As for your first point, collatoral damage springs to mind. You think our goverment gives a toss about innocent lives when they’re sending kids to fight and die for a war they don’t understand?

    49. Roger — on 7th June, 2006 at 12:30 pm  

      There is evidence that the four were in london that day- pictures of them on CCTV, records from mobile phones, posthumous identification by lab technicians, belongings. What you mean, Where’sThe Evidence, is that you refuse to accept that the validity of that evidence. A rather different matter.

    50. Kismet Hardy — on 7th June, 2006 at 12:45 pm  

      I’m not mad enough to believe they weren’t there, but of course the evidence collaborates the claims. That’s what happens when you’re framed

      Unless you’re Will Smith or Tom Cruise and have 24 hours to prove your innocence to the world and unmask the culprits

      Which is hard to do when you’re dead

    51. J7Truth — on 7th June, 2006 at 12:54 pm  

      There is a huge difference between being told that there is evidence and the evidence that is in the public domain.

      There is only one image from Luton of the 4 accused that looks highly dubious compared to the images from the so-called rehearsal on 28/6.

      Release the Evidence! Let us make up our own minds about the validity of the evidence and not just blindly believe what we are told. Surely history has taught us to question everything?

      Boarding the 7.40 from Luton as we have been told in the offical report they did would not have got them to London in time to board the underground trains. A pertinent fact methinks.

      Only the truth stands up to rigorous investigation.

    52. sonia — on 7th June, 2006 at 12:55 pm  

      :-) “Don’t you know that once anything you say can be labeled as conspiracy theory, you lose all credibility?”

      unfortunately so. but that would mean we’d stop asking questions full stop - after all, any detractor of any argument can say its a conspiracy theory, and most do use this tactic!

      after all, one can call any government pinning the blame for something a ‘conspiracy theory’. the point is simply are we ever given enough information to be able to join the dots ourselves? no we aren’t. so governments refusing to allow us to live in fully open societies ought not to be suprised when people start querying what they’re told.

      after all - everyone knows governments lie. heck we all do! ;-)

    53. sonia — on 7th June, 2006 at 12:56 pm  

      “There is a huge difference between being told that there is evidence and the evidence that is in the public domain.”

      spot on.

      if there’s nothing to fear - why isn’t the evidence in the public domain?

    54. The Antagonist — on 7th June, 2006 at 3:33 pm  

      Perhaps people need to be reminded quite what the definition of a ‘conspiracy’ is:

      1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
      2. A group of conspirators.
      3. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
      4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design

      On that basis:

      When two or more people plan to commit a crime, there exists, by definition, a ‘conspiracy’. Therefore, any theory about who did it, or how it was done is, by definition, a ‘conspiracy theory’. The question is then not whether you are a conspiracy theorist, but for which conspiracy theory you find the evidence most compelling.

    55. sonia — on 7th June, 2006 at 3:39 pm  

      yes this term ‘conspiracy theory’ has become conflated with paranoid schizophrenic imaginings. obviously if any two people confer together to do something dodgy then there you go!

    56. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 7th June, 2006 at 5:39 pm  

      Where’sTheEvidence, I believe that you are exactly the type of man for my cause. Please read my post at 27 and join me in outting MFI as the murderous bunch that they are.

    57. eteraz — on 7th June, 2006 at 6:30 pm  

      i would work for the cia any day. i heard they get to take flights around europe, and visit exotic places like bosnia, poland and germany, and they get to take others muslims along too, so im sure it’d be a great conversation, and nights are probably paid for also.

    58. Typical Breh — on 7th June, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

      they looking for loads of ppl down my town mainly for the police and CID cause 9 times out 10 theyre typical asian officers stand out a mile in the community. (speak posh urdu instead of slang and ask too many questions) i know a few guys that joined police force an the moment they started handling cases involving the muslim community they backed out could call it double standards or hypocrisy but it is what it is u snitch on anyone from your own community NOONE looks at you with respect. seriously these guys would rather fuck up their community by selling drugs then work for the police. cant blame em thou police aint exaclty been best friends with pakistanis from this area in the past.

    59. Sunny — on 7th June, 2006 at 10:48 pm  

      Haha! The conspiracy theorists are also out in force today! I wonder how Osama Bin Laden and Mohammed Sidique Khan will feel after dedicating their lives (in the latter case literally to spreading violent jihad - and yet being faced by a bunch of dimwits who won’t even believe it happened.

      How many videos has Osama Bin Laden released now? And clearly you idiots missed the video and statements by Sidique Khan. And what about those four wannabe-bombers two weeks after? I suspect they were also being paid by the CIA eh?

    60. Bozkurt — on 7th June, 2006 at 10:59 pm  

      People dont know that this world is controlled by jews-the freemasons and they do dont like muslims. They are the people who control people like bin laden even saddam he is a freemason himself. So believing in osama bin laden would be a joke as he might be a mi5 or cia agent. who knows??? There are lot of things out there the government doesnt want people to know!!!!

    61. Katy Newton — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:08 pm  

      “People dont know that this world is controlled by jews”

      Well, I for one certainly didn’t, Bozkurt, and I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to visit PP and bring it to my attention.

    62. Don — on 7th June, 2006 at 11:18 pm  

      I’m trying to start a conspiracy, but we’re short on zionists round these parts. Anybody got a spare?

    63. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:00 am  

      Osama Bin Laden and Saddam are freemasons and controlled by the CIA!?! haha! I love it… the freaks are out in force.

    64. shariq — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:38 am  

      I think its strange that the same people who may castigate Pakistani’s and Indias for conspiracy theorising about bomb blasts in the subcontinent - RAW and ISI are inevitably behind everything - are so comfortable theorising about 7/7 and 9/11.

      Also everyone loves to quote Orwell’s 1984 when talking about the onset of a big brother state. I suggest that people actually read the whole book and see Orwell’s take on conspiracy theories.

    65. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:44 am  

      Sunny,

      I am in the process of a name change for political reasons.

      Everyone believes conspiracy theories about what motivates Muslims. I only wish we were that concerted.

    66. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:17 am  

      It’s one thing to lie and cover your mistakes - yes, we all do. It’s a completly different thing for a government to commit muder against it’s own people and then blame it on the muslims. Which incidentally makes no sense considering that it shows the stupidity of this ‘war on terror’. (Incidentally, there was a recent movie with this exact plot… :)

      As for evidence about 7/7… unless you want the photos of what was left of them, I think Sunny reminded us that one of the suicide bombers did in fact release a video - like all suicide bombers - with a full confession. Enough said.

    67. Ravi4 — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:33 am  

      “publish the evidence”

      This would prove nothing. Anything published would have to be on the web or on paper. Thus it will have been tampered with by the CIA, MI5, MI6, Jewish-Zionist, alien-Roswell-Area51, Masonic, opus dei, capitalist military-industrial-complex.

      Even if “they” put on public display the dismembered remains of the “bombers” with forensic evidence of their operational contact with the explosives, that will have been tampered with too to fit the frame up.

      That’s the thing with conspiracies. They’ll always be covered up. “The Man” will always be one step ahead of us decent sane folk.

      Why can’t people see that you just have to question everything? Everything. You can’t ever be sure of anything. Even if your mum and dad really are your mum and dad.

      Why do these sheep believe what some guy they don’t know randomly puts out on the net instead of taking the truth from more reliable sources? Sources like Michael Meacher, David Icke, the Lord of the Rings, HuT and StormFront? Otherwise you’ll just end up living in a fantasy world of make believe, fairy tales and “spooks” at the bottom of the garden.

      [Please note: the above comments may contain nuts]

    68. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:09 am  

      Hey Sunny, want to debate 9/11 & 7/7 like grown up adults instead of snide comments? Clearly the truth disturbs you to the point of lying and acting like a child.
      Start the thred and let’s get it on.

    69. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:39 am  

      Hey Sunny, want to debate 9/11 & 7/7 like grown up adults instead of snide comments?

      I love that use of the word “debate”, lets also “debate” if the sky is blue. I’m not sure I think that the CIA may have injected my eye balls with blue fluid. Damn those Zionists getting up my ****

    70. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:01 am  

      ‘Where’sTheEvidence’ seems like a guy who believes in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Am I right?

    71. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:55 am  

      protocols of the elders of sion

      spelled with an S - and what’s to believe. Historical documents they are.

    72. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:22 pm  

      Sonia, have you gone all Yoda on us?

      I thought that Where’sTheEvidence? was the only space cadet here.

    73. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:28 pm  

      Sonia,

      You are kidding, right?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_elder_zion

      Unless it is some conspiracy about a Welsh chapel.

    74. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 8th June, 2006 at 12:58 pm  

      I notice it’s a common Ravi tactic to slur people when they talk about 7/7 or 9/11 being inside jobs. Play the man not the ball isn’t the most original strawman game to use.

    75. typical breh — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:11 pm  

      protocols of the elders (sages) of zion was a good book but dont think its all tru i think it shares stuff with anit semetic leaflets of hitlers party from 1940s germany

      anyway conspiracy theories get better n better anyone remember ppl saying france did the 7/7 bombin just to get back at us for winnin the olympicbid! haha

      but yes jews are the root of all evil my uncle says it so it must be tru

    76. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:14 pm  

      I notice it’s a common Ravi tactic to slur people when they talk about 7/7 or 9/11 being inside jobs.

      I take that people ridicule you a lot for you to have noticed this pattern?

    77. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:17 pm  

      I first heard about the protocols of the elders of zion in a white supremacist site… I found it so incredibly stupid that anyone would believe it since it picks out every stereotype against jews. Guess what… a lot of muslims believe it as well.

      It’s truly disgusting document written in Europe with the sole purpose to stir anti-semitism feelings. It’s a disgrace. The wikipedia link that Don pointed out shows the story of this ultimate conspiracy that is shared by both muslim militants and neo-nazis.

    78. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:22 pm  

      “Ravi tactic to slur people when they talk about 7/7 or 9/11 being inside jobs. Play the man not the ball isn’t the most original strawman game to use”

      Let me slur you further. Mohammed Sidique Khan appeared on a video and made a statement about his suicide mission, you know, how the ‘suicide bomber’ manual tells you to do.

      How does this little detail fit your CIA/MI5 conspiracy theory?

    79. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:33 pm  

      How does this little detail fit your CIA/MI5 conspiracy theory?

      He was a young man on holiday in Pakistian and it was just a normal everyday activity. Everyone does it out there. It is just way of embrace the local culture and reassert the completely natural and commendable hatred for “lying western documockeries” with thier “whores”.

      Besides I’m pretty sure that MFI did the 7/7 bombings …

    80. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:47 pm  

      I wouldn’t hang your hat on the Khan video in which he appeared with Zawahari, even the government distanced themselves from it and from claims the Leeds accused were linked to Al-Qaeda in anyway. So how cum they both appeared on the tape together. None of the other 3 left any claims they hated our freedoms so we should be bombed did they? One tape inwhich the speech is out of synch is all you got to continue the racist campaign against the falsely accused, gimme a break…

    81. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:52 pm  

      “The so-called “Protocols of the Elders of Sion” were published in London in 1920 under the title of “The Jewish Peril.”

      This book is a translation of a book published in Russia, in 1905, by Sergei Nilus, a Government official, who professed to have received from a friend a copy of a summary of the minutes of a secret meeting, held in Paris by a Jewish organization that was plotting to overthrow civilization in order to establish a Jewish world state. The “Protocols” attracted little attention until after the Russian Revolution of 1917, when the appearance of the Bolshevists, among whom were many Jews professing and practicing political doctrines that in some points resembled those advocated in the “Protocols,” led many to believe that Nilus’s alleged discovery was genuine. The “Protocols” were widely discussed and translated into several European languages. Their authenticity has been frequently attacked and many arguments have been adduced for the theory that they are a forgery.”

    82. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:53 pm  

      no don i’m not kidding . should be spelled with an S

      wikipedia isn’t right about everything! i would say that the reason you see it spelled with a z so often results from the conflation with Zionism

    83. sonia — on 8th June, 2006 at 1:55 pm  

      the point is that the wikipedia article ought to highlight the disagreement between the way it’s been spelt. some say z, some say s.

    84. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:16 pm  

      Sonia I don’t think it matters about the spelling, it’s still a bunch of bollocks that fruitcakes like WherestheEvidence will use above for their master conspiracies.

      Dude - We don’t need to slur you any more. Your stupidity is quite evident here anyway. Why would we want to engage with it anymore? And no, I’m not going to start a thread just to allow you to spill more filth. I value my sanity.

    85. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:18 pm  

      The standard English transliteration of the original Hebrew is Zion. See Norman Cohn’s history Warrant for Genocide for more information.

    86. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:40 pm  

      Sunny, you are an utter joke mate, trying to throw anti semitic slurs around when someone exposes the true nature of false flags reveals you as a pathological liar.

    87. Where'sTheEvidence? — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:42 pm  

      Are you paid to lie or merely deluded?

    88. Ravi Naik — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:46 pm  

      “One tape inwhich the speech is out of synch is all you got to continue the racist campaign against the falsely accused, gimme a break…”

      Well, I guess a 1080p HD, dolby digital 5.1 confession video would not convince you either. So why bother?

    89. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 2:47 pm  

      trying to throw anti semitic slurs around when someone exposes the true nature of false flags

      Hahahaha! Ok, fuck off now WTE, we’ve had some fun with you, but seriously - I don’t want this place overrun by fruitcakes. Find somewhere else to indulge your paranoid brain.

    90. Roger — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:01 pm  

      They were seen on CCTV at Luton at 7:21- or is that a lie too? They were seen again at King’s Cross on CCTV at 8:30. The assumption probably was that they took the next train to London, and only later analysis showed that it couldn’t have been the 7:40 train- if that is the case.

      WTC7 was hit by burning debris from the planes and the buildings hit by planes. It took over eight hours for it to collapse actually, from when first it was damaged.

      As a matter of interest, why are people who carry out such cunning elaborate, superbly-planned frame-ups so careless about minor details?

    91. bananabrain — on 8th June, 2006 at 5:50 pm  

      did someone call for a zionist?

      for those of you interested, actually all spellings in english are transliterations. the word “zion” or “sion” is normally pronounced “tziyyon”. of course if, like me, you use iraqi pronunciation the “tz” sound becomes a soft palatal “s” made by turning your tongue into a sort of hump.

      and, by the way, to all those conspiracy theorists - i’m the one who oversalted your dinners, too. muwahahahaha.

      why don’t you idiots try talking to jews instead of blaming the whole world’s problems on us, eh? or is that just too much like hard work?

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    92. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:04 pm  

      ‘did someone call for a zionist?’

      That would be me. Apparently one can’t have a conspiracy without one. We have a freemason but frankly he is elderly and a bit deaf, which means we have to shout quite a lot when plotting in seedy dives. It’s reached the point where conspirators from the cities are running excursions just to sneer at us.

      Anyway, the plan is to collapse the entire communication system, starting with Radio 5 Live, and so bring the oligarchy to its knees. Up for it? We’ll blame the moslems, of course.

    93. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:23 pm  

      bananabrain! Hello again… I wanted to ask you btw, I met a guy called Stephen Shashoua from the three-faiths-forum last week. Know him? I mentioned your think-tank.
      He was also an Iraqi Jew.

    94. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:28 pm  

      Sunny,

      When this thread finally collapses under the weight of dingbats it has attracted, could you declare a winner in the ‘Loopiest Contributor’ stakes?

      I thought WTE was promising, but Bozkurt is making a strong late surge.

    95. typical breh — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:28 pm  

      hey imight join M15

      do i get to have an astn martin like james bond?

    96. Sunny — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:35 pm  

      Don - I’m afraid I’m just to carry on deleting them or banning them. I don’t want every thread overrun by idiots.

    97. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 6:46 pm  

      Don,

      #93 ha ha! Will I qualify if I convert and become a Jew-ess?

    98. Katy Newton — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:25 pm  

      *bursts in*

      Did someone ask for a Zionist? Who you gonna call?

      *exchanges secret handshake with Don and bananabrain*

    99. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 7:43 pm  

      OK, we got ourselves a conspiracy. Sunny, can we get an introduction to your paymaster?

    100. Ravi4 — on 8th June, 2006 at 8:58 pm  

      I’m not jewish and I’m not in the CIA. But I work for capitalists and one of my schoolteachers was a mason. can I join this conspiracy?

    101. Katy Newton — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:35 pm  

      *pats seat*

      You’re in, Ravi. Come and sit here. We’ll start you off with the Isle of Wight and see how you get on with it.

    102. El Cid — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:36 pm  

      I have met people in the Opus Dei, wear a fake Lacoste and I work in the meeja. I’m well dodgy. Can I join?

    103. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:46 pm  

      Certainly, El Cid. A little Iberian flourish lends a touch of class to these enterprises.

    104. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:52 pm  

      *sob* I am not in! After I made the biggest sacrifice of all; ain’t easy for us atheist types to convert and pretend belief in a non-existent deity you know… *sob*
      I’ll get back at ya’ll! see if I don’t.

    105. raz — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:54 pm  

      “I made the biggest sacrifice of all”

      Nah, that would be you becoming a Muslim ;)

    106. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 9:58 pm  

      Aw, Mirax, hug hug,

      Our reptillian overlords have a special entry route for trhe truly dedicated.

      On the other hand, we have a vacancy for a nemesis.

    107. Katy Newton — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:14 pm  

      Perhaps Mirax could share the Isle of Wight with Ravi. It could be a teamwork exercise.

    108. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:29 pm  

      >Nah, that would be you becoming a Muslim

      Raz, beleive it or not, I explored that option when I was 16! I was a god-obssessed drama queen at one point in my life and pretty openminded at looking at anything on offer.

      But yes, I would find it inconceivable now to join ANY religion. I’ve given most of them a fair go. Have you tried atheism? ;-)

    109. mirax — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:33 pm  

      >Perhaps Mirax could share the Isle of Wight with Ravi

      *sniffs*

      Too late and too little.Even as I type this, the counter-conspiracy is gathering the kind of strength and numbers you puny amateurs can only dream about.

    110. Katy Newton — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:39 pm  

      I knew I should have joined the counter conspiracy!

    111. Don — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:45 pm  

      Damn, we have awoken the Silver Mongoose.

    112. raz — on 8th June, 2006 at 10:48 pm  

      mirax,

      “I was a god-obssessed drama queen”

      Half that statement might still be true ;)

      “Have you tried atheism?”

      If it pleased you, I’d try [b]anything[/b] :)

      And anyway, given my predeliction for hentai, I think I’ve damned myself to hell several times over already :(

    113. Katy Newton — on 8th June, 2006 at 11:03 pm  

      Mirax, are you sure you’re not interested in the Isle of Wight? Cowes Week, you know.

    114. bananabrain — on 9th June, 2006 at 12:44 pm  

      hi sunny,

      i’ve not actually met stephen shashou’a yet but he’s been pointed out to me as someone to get involved. and yes, he is iraqi, too and, yes, one of the thinktank’s headline initiatives will definitely be of interest to him. where’d you meet him?

      if you’d like to talk to me offline about any of this stuff, of course, hopefully you know how to get hold of me now.

      as for the post above, i frankly couldn’t be arsed to read all of it. seems to me it’s the usual rubbish - every terrorist attack is actually committed by rogue or undercover elements within the government or security services, presumably with the collaboration of the mossad, etc. as if the israelis haven’t got plenty to do without infiltrating the uk!

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    115. Sunny — on 11th June, 2006 at 11:59 pm  

      Cheers bananabrain - will do when the time arises.

    116. Taj — on 13th June, 2006 at 1:01 pm  

      I believe if Muslims did join MI5 it would be fraternising with the enemy. It’s fairly obvious that the police are targeting Muslims, and this should amount to harrassment, especially when intelligence is inaccurate. MI5 just want to use Muslims, to try and win the hearts of the community. I wanted to jion the police force years ago, but I’m glad I didn’t because I don’t trust them.

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