Let’s out-smart the BNP instead


by guest
25th August, 2009 at 2:42 pm    

This is a guest post by Lucy James from the Quilliam Foundation

Following the BNP’s annual event ‘Red, White and Blue’ the other weekend, what should have grabbed the headlines (and which was only mentioned in passing was the racism endemic in the event itself.

What in fact grabbed the headlines were the 19 protestors arrested largely for public order offences (4 of whom were charged), and the £500,000 policing cost at public expense. Only a few weeks ago, violence had already made the headlines.

Whilst I am by no means undermining the importance of peaceful protest as a legitimate method of getting heard (I do, in fact, attend rallies), if the right-wing extremists remain predominantly challenged by the left-wing extremists, the argument against the BNP gets distorted. In fact, it can serve to bolster the BNP’s message as did the photographs of young Asian men attacking white-protestors during the Birmingham riots. Moderates need to reclaim the upper hand by systematically challenging the BNP’s ideology rather than resorting to violence.

Since about 2006, particularly post-7/7, the BNP has consciously changed their rhetoric from being anti-Asian, -Black and -Jewish, to being ardently anti-Muslim. In a paper that I authored entitled In Defence of British Muslims: A response to BNP racist propaganda (pdf), I therefore took 10 of the key accusations directed against Islam and British Muslims by the BNP and systematically deconstructed them by highlighting their intellectual inconsistencies and factual weaknesses.

Such arguments are easily undermined using proper statistics, and historical and textual evidence. For one, Islam is not a religion with a cunning master-plan for its adherents to emigrate with the intention of mass conversion. The Islamic concept of migration (hijrah) is to flee from religious persecution rather than a calculated drive for world domination.

The incredible level to which the BNP will stoop was revealed by Lee Barnes in a blog on the drugs problem in the UK. Referring to a young student, Rachel Whitear, who died of a heroin overdose Barnes wrote:

‘She was not an angel, she was an accomplice to genocide, terrorism and a funder of the most vicious criminal gangs on the planet as she funded the terrorists and gangsters that cause such misery across the planet. The idea that she should be regarded as a victim is repulsive. Every junkie is a criminal, not a victim. The body of every dead junkie should be photographed and hung on a wall of shame in every community so that young kids can see the real price of heroin. Their lives should be regarded as a disgrace not as victims.

The BNP will stop at nothing it seems—not the manipulation of the death of an innocent young girl’s life or the damning of an entire religion— for the furthering of their cause. Luckily for common sense, a man was charged with incitement to religious hatred the other week for distributing the said leaflets.

The BNP’s accusations against Islam are offensive to any Muslim, but easily torn apart by intellectually countering these arguments. The BNP are drastically short of funds, and the number of votes has not actually increased on 2004 (rather their share of the vote increased with the slump in Labour support). We don’t need to panic. Instead, members of British society, Muslim and non-Muslim, desperately need to start intellectually reclaiming the debate and systematically challenge the BNP’s racist and inaccurate arguments.  


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  1. Matt Borum

    Pickled Politics » Let’s out-smart the BNP instead- In fact, it can serve to bolster the BNP’s message … http://bit.ly/281zUe


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    New blog post: Let’s out-smart the BNP instead http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5648


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    RT @pickledpolitics Pickled Politics » Let’s out-smart the BNP instead http://bit.ly/6ougG




  1. grapesoda — on 25th August, 2009 at 2:52 pm  

    Lucy james how can you complain of £500,000 policing costs at public expense. When the british tax payer is asked to pay over £1 million pounds to your organisation to publish nothing but propaganda and nonsense with no benefit whatsoever.

  2. GA Henty — on 25th August, 2009 at 3:01 pm  

    “No benefit whatsoever”?

    Does that mean that you don’t think that it is important for civil society groups like Quilliam to tackle the BNP’s ideology and specifically their rantings against Muslims?

  3. Gordon Bennett — on 25th August, 2009 at 3:05 pm  

    Thanks for the article Lucy. Now let’s wait and see what the BNP’ monkeys will have to say about it.

    It must hurt to be “desperately short of funds”, eh, Mr Lee Barnes!! :-)

  4. MikeSC — on 25th August, 2009 at 3:21 pm  

    In my town 11% of those who voted, voted for the BNP. Only 27% of people actually voted.

    Wouldn’t it be an idea to target the 73% who felt let down by all parties rather than the 3% who were taken in by the BNP?

    Argue *for* the left, rather than against the far-right, because not that many people actually take the BNP seriously as it is.

  5. Markj — on 25th August, 2009 at 3:29 pm  

    Grapesoda – so attacking the BNP is propaganda is it? What about the nonsense and filth fascist scum have be churning out. I’m happy to have my money go towards an organisation that fights extremism of all shades.

  6. Jai — on 25th August, 2009 at 3:43 pm  

    Lucy James,

    Excellent article.

    I therefore took 10 of the key accusations directed against Islam and British Muslims by the BNP and systematically deconstructed them by highlighting their intellectual inconsistencies and factual weaknesses.

    Such arguments are easily undermined using proper statistics, and historical and textual evidence.

    We don’t need to panic. Instead, members of British society, Muslim and non-Muslim, desperately need to start intellectually reclaiming the debate and systematically challenge the BNP’s racist and inaccurate arguments.

    Exactly. Hopefully you’ve been following the lists of questions eGov/PP have been directing at the BNP too, along with the detailed counterarguments to their subsequent responses.

    Well done anyway for your own efforts.

  7. fugstar — on 25th August, 2009 at 4:15 pm  

    Quilliyummy.

    its like reading an HT imprinted leaflet after juma.

    mind you dont intellectually tear yourself apart.

    Lucy James is Majid pet giraffe warmer.

  8. hantsboy — on 25th August, 2009 at 4:37 pm  

    £500,000 could have been used to stamp out FGM in Africa.

  9. hantsboy — on 25th August, 2009 at 4:47 pm  

    and the number of votes has not actually increased on 2004 (rather their share of the vote increased with the slump in Labour support).

    Up 17% in actual numbers.

    Yes could have been better but it was in the face of one one most vitriolic MSM campaigns of modern times.

    So pretty good really….

  10. Jimmy — on 25th August, 2009 at 4:53 pm  

    A million quid of public money on this Jackanory-level drivel?

    An interesting little example of shallow thinking is wilfully or stupidly uncounting Muslims in the U.K. population.

    We are repeatedly told that ‘only’ – er – maybe 3% or 3.5% of the British population is Muslim.

    Now, try this:

    -1- Look at the percentage of 5-year-olds with Muslim names. Tell us what percentage of 20-year-olds in the U.K. population will be Muslims a mere 15 years from now.

    -2- Make due allowance for the high Muslim birthrate, rougly twice that of white Britons.

    -3- Add ongoing legal and illegal Muslim immigration and the importation of brides from the Indo-Pak-Bengali subcontinent.

    Weep.

  11. Shatterface — on 25th August, 2009 at 5:19 pm  

    I’d be wary of making the cost of policing a protest a deciding factor in whether the protest should go ahead or not. I suspect the various green and anti-war protests cost more.

    (Whether the police are justified in the intensity of policing THESE events need is a seperate issue.)

  12. David O'Keefe — on 25th August, 2009 at 7:34 pm  

    demographics are not one of your strong points is it, Jimmy?

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/206230/page/2

  13. MaidMarian — on 25th August, 2009 at 8:06 pm  

    Lucy – I feel as if I should really like this article, but to be honest, for all the good intentions here I am left really wondering if you have thought this through. To be clear, I do not mean any disrespect here – it’s just for an article that purports to take on the BNP, it is light to say the least.

    The .pdf you link to (whilst interesting) does nothing other than preach to the choir who are already well versed in the debate. It is an identity politics debate that you simply will not win with the man on the Clapham Omnibus for the reason that the BNP have not worked for his vote. They have worked for his (to use Sunny’s favourite turn of phrase) heart and mind.

    In the way that the anti-war movement did not want total agreement with their agenda, just for people to ‘kinda-sorta see the point’ so the BNP have used such pressure group tactics for their MESSAGE, as opposed to their ideology, to become common currency. Breadth, not depth.

    You are not outsmarting the BNP, you are responding to their agenda on their terms. That you do a decent job really does not matter.

    I long for the day when we can engage the BNP on how to fund their pie-in-the-sky, on green issues, transport, planning and the like. Something, anything other than identity politics.

    The man on the Clapham omnibus is neither racist nor islamophobic – but his malcontentment has been tapped into effectively by the BNP. A different approach than, ‘identity politics – it’s not as bad as the press say,’ is really needed.

    And this article is a bit of a missed opportunity in terms of setting out that approach.

    Jimmy (10) – ‘Look at the percentage of 5-year-olds with Muslim names.’ When I was at school, about 60% of children had Irish names, as far as I know they did not turn into IRA terrorsts. I have an Irish name, problem? Names – christ on a bike!

  14. Laban Tall — on 25th August, 2009 at 11:01 pm  

    I hope the stats in Lucy James’ pdf aren’t of the same standard as “the number of votes has not actually increased on 2004″. For good or ill, the BNP Euro-vote went up from 800,000-odd to 900,000-odd.

    It is a noble thing to undermine pernicious ideas using ‘proper statistics’. But as well as being ‘proper’, those stats have to be ‘correct’.

  15. Laban Tall — on 25th August, 2009 at 11:18 pm  

    Oh dear. She’s put that same stat in the pdf.

    These were seats that were gained on the basis of nearly one million votes from the British public— 6.2% of the entire votes cast. Although the figures were actually down on 2004 (the slump in Labour party support meant the BNP’s proportion of the vote increased), the BNP have now gained official recognition in European politics.

    The BBC reported at the time :

    “Mr Griffin was elected to Brussels even though the BNP polled fewer votes in the region than it had in 2004 – the slump in Labour support meant its share of the vote increased.”

    and that got picked up, misinterpreted as applying to the whole poll, and repeated all over left blogs and the Guardian.

    I think their Yorkshire vote dropped too, although the share increased. But nationally their vote went up.

    Poor girl.

  16. MixTogether — on 25th August, 2009 at 11:57 pm  

    Maid Marian,

    Longing for a change from identity politics is a fine sentiment, but I’m afraid you are going to have to wait another couple of decades for it to happen.

    Non-white minorities have shown since the ’70s just how effective identity politics can be. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that white working class minorities have (finally) worked it out now too, after all they have learned from the best.

  17. MixTogether — on 25th August, 2009 at 11:59 pm  

    @ Lucy James,

    If you really want to play it smart against the BNP and the Islamists, have a look at the issue of mixed race and faith couples.

    It annoys them both.

  18. douglas clark — on 26th August, 2009 at 12:03 am  

    Laban Tall,

    Could you at least provide us with some data? I have no idea now whether the BNP vote went up, sideways or into a black hole. There are all sorts of reasons there vote may have risen – contesting more constituencies perhaps. Their vote, in absolute numbers, might be relevant, or it might not.

    I have no way of telling.

  19. Laban Tall — on 26th August, 2009 at 12:23 am  
  20. Sunny — on 26th August, 2009 at 1:38 am  

    If you really want to play it smart against the BNP and the Islamists, have a look at the issue of mixed race and faith couples.

    Why do single issue muppets like you still even hang around here? You spend all your time cussing me on blogs elsewhere and yet you keep coming back here to expose your stupidity. Just go away, perhaps?

  21. Andrew — on 26th August, 2009 at 4:07 am  

    This study by Lucy is very worthy, but who is actually going to read it? Does anyone think that BNP members and the people who vote for the BNP actually care about concepts such as ‘facts’ and ‘truth’!?

  22. Cauldron — on 26th August, 2009 at 5:39 am  

    Not difficult to outsmart the BNP:

    (1) Bring back the eminently sensible primary purpose rule, thereby keeping out the most illiterate (and least amenable to integration) immigrants who are the biggest economic competition to indigenous illiterates;

    (2) Quit promoting identity politics and “reverse discrimination”. Either you support race-based policies or you oppose them. You can’t just support them selectively without expecting the Nazis to do the same.

    (3) Vote Tory. The demise of the NF can be traced very precisely to 3 May 1979. I think the BNP has some fears about the 2010 general election in this regard, which is why they’re doing their utmost to keep the embers of hatred burning by inciting race riots in Birmingham and football riots in East London.

  23. MixTogether — on 26th August, 2009 at 8:12 am  

    Lol Sunny, i wrote one thing, it’s YOU who is always trying to ‘cuss’ me on here. Give it a rest, perhaps?

    Anyway, i didn’t invent the ‘nobody takes Sunny seriously’ meme- it’s already out there.

    I’ll use your blogs when it suits me, unless you are enough of a pussy to ban me for no reason?

  24. BenM — on 26th August, 2009 at 9:02 am  

    “if the right-wing extremists remain predominantly challenged by the left-wing extremists, the argument against the BNP gets distorted. In fact, it can serve to bolster the BNP’s message as did the photographs of young Asian men attacking white-protestors during the Birmingham riots.”

    Well, yes.

    But as much as I love democracy and freedom of speech, I do love seeing knuckledragging rightwing fascists abusing that freedom getting a good kicking too!

    Perhaps the Birmingham scuffles may make some of the numpties with BNP sympathies think twice before bawling their mindless, braindead prejudices in public places.

  25. hantsboy — on 26th August, 2009 at 10:09 am  

    numpties

    BenM

    not another Jock are you ?

    BNP will be breathing down Labour’s neck up there in 5-10 years time and why ?

    Because the average age in Scotland is 45 and many more third world immigrants will be ‘encouraged’ to live there.

    You’ll end up like England with English style politics.
    Wait and see.

  26. KB Player — on 26th August, 2009 at 11:46 am  

    I wonder about using sweet reason on the BNP and those malevolent enough and/or stupid enough to vote for them. I have had conversations about immigration which went like this:-

    Person: There are too many immigrants in this country.
    Me: Statistics show…
    Person: Don’t give me statistics.

    OR

    Person: There are too many immigrants in this country.
    Me: But I’m an immigrant! [white, British ancestry]
    Person: I don’t mean people like you! I mean other immigrants. [ie brown, non British ancestry]

    Anyway, here’s what one of the BNP’s heroes said about intellectual appeals to the masses:-

    “All propaganda must be popular and its intellectual level must be adjusted to the most limited intelligence among those it is addressed to. Consequently, the greater the mass it is intended to reach, the lower its purely intellectual level will have to be. But if, as in propaganda for sticking out a war, the aim is to influence a whole people, we must avoid excessive intellectual demands on our public, and too much caution cannot be exerted in this direction.

    The more modest its intellectual ballast, the more exclusively it takes into consideration the emotion of the masses, the more effective it will be. And this is the best proof of the soundness or unsoundness of a propaganda campaign, and not success in pleasing a few scholars or young aesthetes.

    The art of propaganda lies in understanding the emotional ideas of the great masses and finding, through a psychologically correct form, the way to the attention and thence to the heart of the broad masses. The fact that our bright boys do not understand this merely shows how mentally lazy and conceited they are.”

  27. ahmed — on 26th August, 2009 at 12:01 pm  

    I cant believe you havent reported whats been happeining in BNP controlled Epping Forest

    “The local Muslim leader Noor Ramjanally, was abducted from his home by two men who threatened the lives of his family and warned the Muslim community to leave the area.”

    http://www.sparklywater.com/news-current-affairs/994-local-muslim-leader-abducted.html#post9885

    He had previously been send letters threatening his family and had his home destroyed in an arson attack

    This story has suprise suprise been ignored by the mainstream press

  28. MaidMarian — on 26th August, 2009 at 12:25 pm  

    Cauldron – ‘Bring back the eminently sensible primary purpose rule’

    The PPR! I thought we had taken that one out the back and clubbed it with a rusty spade, but here we go again.

    The PPR asked people to demonstrate a negative. It was poor policy because the state was being asked to make individual, subjective judgment on people’s private lives. Said people could not come back with evidence as they were being asked to demonstrate negatives.

    Goodness, even those lovely, charming, sweet people at MigrationWatch conclude, ‘Re-instatement of the Primary Purpose Rule is not the only, and probably not the best, way to address the problem.’ [Para 39]

    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingPaper/document/124

    MixTogether – Let me put that another way. I have long held a view that if anyone has been failed by the race relations industry over the past decade, it is white Europan immigrants. Many of whom, by the way, have far more in common with the over-romanticised vision of ‘working class’ than those I believe you have in mind when you talk about, ‘white working class minorities.’

  29. Mangles — on 26th August, 2009 at 1:23 pm  

    I agree with the gist of Lucy’s post. However, I still would like to see an effort by the liberal moderates to challenge ALL racist and right wing views and not just the traditional racism of the English far right.

    I do disagree with Lucy that there is no rise in BNP popularity. My experience is that there is a rising level of racism on the streets, some of it from paranoia and some as a reaction to the extremist views amongst some minorities, any challenge to which are often classified as Islamaphobic. We need to recognise racism, and infidelism as equal evils. Yes there is a clear danger of a rise in popularity of the BNP and thoughful and considered challenges will do alot more to deter their rise. Equally the inability to challenge the ideology of Islamic infidelism will continue to ferment community tensions and raise the BNP’s popularity.

    Rab rakha

  30. Soso — on 26th August, 2009 at 3:32 pm  

    demographics are not one of your strong points is it, Jimmy?

    Actualy, it’s Newsweek that is poor with demographics

    http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1338480?eng=y

  31. Gordon — on 26th August, 2009 at 4:14 pm  

    Britain NEEDS more immigrants, preferably from savage and disease-ridden hell-holes like the Congo and Somalia.

    Immigration from such cesspits will benefit:

    -1- The savages themselves.

    -2- Capitalist fat-cats who ADORE cheap labour.

    -3- Lefties like the self-hating whites of RESPECT, chumps who ADORE having a cause and someone to snivel over.

    BRITAIN NEEDS TWO MILLION MORE
    SOMALIS AND CONGOLESE NOW!

  32. David O'Keefe — on 26th August, 2009 at 6:52 pm  

    Soso, that link from a right-wing catholic source is supposed to prove the eurabia myth? Come off it.

    Another demographics should not be used to predict anything.

  33. Soso — on 26th August, 2009 at 7:10 pm  

    Soso, that link from a right-wing catholic source is supposed to prove the eurabia myth? Come off it.

    I see, “”right-wing” means you can safely ignore it.

    The article quoted both left-wing and right-wing Dutch figures/journalists. They all speak english and are very easy to get into touch with, so why not drop ‘em a line? I assume you’re in the UK. Holland is close and easy to visit, so why not go and see for yourself?

    I was in Rotterdam a little over a year ago, and what I observed dovetails quite nicely with what’s stated in the article.

    Why do you think Geert Wilders Freedom Party is set to become the no 1 party in the Netherlands? Because half of Holland have suddenly morphed into “right-wing” knuckle-dragging racists?

    I may disturb you to know that T. Ramadan is no longer an advisor with Rotterdam city gov’t.

    He was booted from the job…at the behest of LEFT-WING city officials who’ve undergone an epiphany.

    So let’s invite him to lecture at Oxford.

  34. MaidMarian — on 26th August, 2009 at 8:05 pm  

    Mangles (28) – In terms of the BNP, is it more a rise in popularity or a rise in profile (I accept that the two are not exclusive)?

    When I was at university in the mid-1990s, study of the BNP was something almost novel. Not that long ago, the BNP struggled to get their message going but the internet is tailor made for a group like them. Even as far back as the mid 1990s the BNP had clearly invested heavily in their internet profile. Look at their website, it is excellent.

    What we have seen recently is a feeding frenzy on the ‘mainstream’ (for want of a better word) and a near unchallenged rise of ‘hardline’ views.

    The point I am, clumsily, getting at is that there are a number of factors behing the rise of the BNP in the last few years. I suspect that a tory government would face much the same problems.

    For as long as people are keen to avoid the hard questions, the unpoplar balances and the like inherent in government and give great weight to easy answers politics we will seen the BNP persist.

  35. Rayatcov — on 26th August, 2009 at 8:59 pm  

    Excuse me for going a little off track but and there’s always a but isn’t there. It seems that it’s OK to accept Sinn Fein MEPs and MPs, after all they have only murdered people, shot people in the knee caps, tried to kill a PM and members of the Royal Family but this Griffin, he has opinions we don’t like so we can’t have that can we. Quite amusing really.
    Those Nationalists;-
    First they decide that they don’t like foreign influence or foreign governments.
    Then, they start to preach against those foreign things.
    Next thing you know, they have a following.
    Then the following grows.
    Then come the civil disobedience campaigns and before you know it, there’s an upheaval and they toss out the foreigners.
    Of course, I’m referring to the Nationalist Ghandi, not the Nationalist Griffin.

  36. Sunny — on 27th August, 2009 at 4:54 am  

    Anyway, i didn’t invent the ‘nobody takes Sunny seriously’ meme- it’s already out there.

    I heard the meme that you blow plastic dolls is also out there but I haven’t repeated it yet.

    I’ll use your blogs when it suits me, unless you are enough of a pussy to ban me for no reason?

    Ooooh, hard man! No need to ban you really, because I like abusing you here. You’re a one-trick-pony that deserves repeated abuse.

  37. MixTogether — on 27th August, 2009 at 8:20 am  

    No, you just don’t have a legitimate reason to ban me.

    I saw first hand at City Circle how seriously everyone takes you, and since then it’s just got worse!

  38. Random Guy — on 27th August, 2009 at 9:33 am  

    Soso @ 30: That Eurabia article you posted is right-wing nonsense. Still, it is eye-opening into exactly what this neandarthal term “Eurabia” actually is supposed to mean.

    If I have it right, any Muslim anywhere in Europe who exercises their right to follow their religion is turning their locale into Eurabia. How entirely logical and sensible (if you are a BNP member or Nazi sympathiser, that is).

    MixTogether @ 37: Your constant slurs are becoming a bit irritating. Why not stick to the debate in a constructive manner? If you are trying to be the exemplar for the issue of mixed couples, then you ain’t doing a very good job with all the “he said, she said” stuff…

  39. Jai — on 27th August, 2009 at 10:58 am  

    but this Griffin, he has opinions we don’t like so we can’t have that can we. Quite amusing really.
    Those Nationalists;-
    First they decide that they don’t like foreign influence or foreign governments.
    Then, they start to preach against those foreign things.
    Next thing you know, they have a following.
    Then the following grows.
    Then come the civil disobedience campaigns and before you know it, there’s an upheaval and they toss out the foreigners.
    Of course, I’m referring to the Nationalist Ghandi, not the Nationalist Griffin.

    Nice attempt, but ludicrously far from the truth. Gandhi was purely opposed to foreign political & military rule, specifically in relation to imperialism.

    He had no issues with “foreign influences” and certainly was not interested in “tossing out the foreigners”. And he was actively opposed to any kind of hostility or bigotry towards ordinary non-Indians in general, including — most importantly, in this specific situation — ordinary British people. In terms of being a “nationalist” (as per the BNP definition of the term) Gandhi was about as far from Griffin as it is possible to be; that dubious honour falls to the racist psychopaths who were responsible for assassinating him.

    Incidentally, if one is going to try to misappropriate historical figures in order to draw false comparisons with Griffin, it’s best to spell their names correctly: “Gandhi”, not “Ghandi”.

  40. Mangles — on 27th August, 2009 at 12:52 pm  

    MaidMarian (34) I agree that politicians are too interested in opinion poll politics rather than getting to the bottom of things. As a long standing Labour supporter it really gets up my nose that the party has become as much involved in race and class politics as the Tories always were. Worse still their policies have had little impact on the inequitable opportunities that white working classes have in many deprived and poverty stricken areas. That is one of the reasons why the Govts targets to reduce child poverty are so far off course. This has helped the BNP enormously.

    But the headline grabbing escapades of Muslim-extremists in Luton at the troops homecoming for example help polarise communities immensely. Activities such as these, and where individuals propagate such hatred towards infidels and other groups, such as those depicted in the much heralded Dispatches programme also have a lot to answer for. The aftermath of that broadcast only saw West Mids Police try to prosecute the film makers/broadcasters (at our expense) instead of the individuals professing such hatred, and the venues where such hatred was being preached.

    Seems mighty peculiar does it not? So when people turn to a party/people who seem to want to raise this issue in multicolor/dolby sound etc (and clearly for ulterior racist political motives) then who do you blame? The BNP have been there for decades. Yes their profile has been raised recently, but what has fuelled that profiles ability to reach the parts of the country and people it couldn’t before?

    Like I said its mighty time we dealt with all hate pedlars and not just some. Then the BNP would stop getting the sympathy of the masses, and they will surely be beaten at their own game. Lucy has started a good discussion. However I still see her defending to some degree the hatred being fuelled by Muslim extremists. We need to be much bolder and objective if we are truly to beat the BNP at their own game and challenge not just the hatred of the BNP’s politics but also political-Islam.

    Rab rakha!

  41. MixTogether — on 27th August, 2009 at 12:56 pm  

    random guy,

    Read down the comments on this thread., and look at my first contributions 16 and 17. They are totally related to the thread and constructive. Then read 20…

    Sunny is more than capable of going off-topic to score cheap points, i’m sure he doesn’t need your help to do so.

  42. Random Guy — on 27th August, 2009 at 2:04 pm  

    Mangles @ 40: “Like I said its mighty time we dealt with all hate pedlars and not just some”.

    Mangles, you need your reality checked. The reason the BNP is so popular right now is directly tied in to all the anti-muslim rhetoric that has been staple in the mainstream for the last 8 years (since 9/11).

    You are trying to conflate Islamic extremism and the BNP, when you should be conflating Right-wing British/European/American extremism, initiated from already well-laid out plans following 9/11, across the mainstream media, and orchestrated to allow the Iraq and Afghan wars to happen.

    Just for clarification, I don’t really care whether or not you agree or argue with me on this, so don’t waste your/my time unless you have something intelligent to add.

    MixTogether @ 41: I see the comments, looks like there is some history there. I don’t want to get involved, but its not helping the discussion.

  43. Sunny — on 27th August, 2009 at 2:32 pm  

    I saw first hand at City Circle how seriously everyone takes you, and since then it’s just got worse!

    It’s good to know you agree with the sentiments of a bunch of Respect Party supporting hacks.

  44. Jai — on 27th August, 2009 at 2:58 pm  

    Some further information to supplement my previous post #39:

    In terms of being a “nationalist” (as per the BNP definition of the term) Gandhi was about as far from Griffin as it is possible to be; that dubious honour falls to the racist psychopaths who were responsible for assassinating him.

    …..because they thought Gandhi was “too tolerant, sympathetic & compassionate” towards Muslims.

    Again, I doubt anyone with an accurate grasp of Gandhi’s life, beliefs and actions could mistake him for an ideological predecessor to Nick Griffin. Not even remotely.

  45. Jai — on 27th August, 2009 at 2:59 pm  

    Some further information to supplement my previous post #39:

    In terms of being a “nationalist” (as per the BNP definition of the term) Gandhi was about as far from Griffin as it is possible to be; that dubious honour falls to the racist psychopaths who were responsible for assassinating him.

    …..because they thought Gandhi was “too tolerant, sympathetic & compassionate” towards Muslims.

    Again, I doubt anyone with an accurate grasp of Gandhi’s life, beliefs and actions could mistake him for an ideological predecessor to Griffin. Not even remotely.

  46. grapesoda — on 27th August, 2009 at 11:30 pm  

    Nobody wants to see the BNP anywhere in the uk they are foul and racist. However if you look at the birth of the Quilliam foundation it was based on attacking islam now they have switched the other way and now focusing on the BNP good in most peoples eyes.

    However with the government being criticized on the Prevent Violent Extremsim projects and possibility of it being scrapped or amended it seems quilliam are worried there of little use and worried their mortgages and wages will no longer be funded by the british taxpayer. So shift gear on lambasting the muslim community for past 2 years and now they want to be the knight in shining armour for the muslim community against the bnp yeah right pull the other one!

    http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2009/08/anti-extremism-scheme-should-be-scrapped-says-think-tank/

  47. grapesoda — on 28th August, 2009 at 11:28 am  

    Nobody wants to see the BNP anywhere in the uk they are foul and racist. However if you look at the birth of the Quilliam foundation it was born to attack political islam. They have now switched in another direction and have produced an article on the BNP.

    With the government being criticized on the Prevent Violent Extremism project, and possibility of it being scrapped or amended. It seems quilliam are worried they are of little use and worried their 1 million pound blank cheque, mortgages and wages will no longer be funded by the british taxpayer. So shift gear on providing disinformation and propaganda against the muslim community for the past year, now they want us to believe they want to be the knight in shining armour for the muslim community against the bnp yeah right pull the other one!

    http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2009/08/anti-extremism-scheme-should-be-scrapped-says-think-tank/

  48. Jai — on 28th August, 2009 at 12:25 pm  

    There’s an expanded version of Lucy James’ article in The Guardian. Many of the subsequent comments are excellent too.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/20/bnp-far-right-racist-argument

  49. Mangles — on 28th August, 2009 at 9:08 pm  

    Randon Guy @ 42: ‘Mangles, you need your reality checked. The reason the BNP is so popular right now is directly tied in to all the anti-muslim rhetoric that has been staple in the mainstream for the last 8 years (since 9/11).’

    Do you really belive that BNP politics and the impact of their hate only affects the Muslim community? If you do then think again. The mass media has never done as much positive-Islamic profiling from radio to television to print journalism as has been witnessed over the past decade.

    Yes, there has been political rhetoric against extremists and terrorists, yet I have seen a lot more people show sympathy with the Islamic community and turn up and show their utter disregard against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

    You say ‘ right-wing British/European/American extremism, initiated from already well-laid out plans following 9/11, across the mainstream media, and orchestrated to allow the Iraq and Afghan wars to happen.’ The reality I have witnessed over the past 8 years has been demonstrated by the spirit of democratic free speech in this country and most western and european democracies, where millions of people have demonstrated on the streets and used their votes in the ballot-box to demonstrate their apathy against these wars.

    I’m dumbfounded as to how the Government rhetoric helped your so called ‘right-wing British/European/American extremism’ when if anything the public, the press, and almost all media has received such rhetoric with the greatest cynicism, and the opposition parties on both sides of the pond have scrutinised the justification for the war in Iraq with great enthusiasm.

    If you feel this is extremism and right wing, then how would you describe the extremists and terrorists behind the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings whose language is not only abhorent but justifies the killing of innocent kafirs/infidels as deliberate efforts to ensnare the west to wholeheartedly embrace Islam ‘peacefully’ or otherwise face more attacks?

    Most Muslims I know also regard this language as abhorent and the actions of the terrorists as un-Islamic. However there is still a mindset and language of infidelism/ kafirism whether in moderate terms or in silent acceptance of such terms which treats non-muslims with disdain. If this is not also the language of hate, or of right-wing politics then how else would you describe it? There was a time when it was acceptable, and justified by interpretation of the bible, to believe that people of colour were second class and that they should be enslaved. The Christian world has moved on and learnt that such hate filled rhetoric holds no place in Christianity. This reform should also take place within the Muslim world.

    NF/BNP hate politics had become unacceptable for many years. It should remain unacceptable. That battle will he harder if all hate politics is not condemned, but only that of the white haters. This is not defensive action but objective, sincere and honest testimony, which is needed if we want to show equal tolerance and respect for all.

    Hate is hate, the definition does not discriminate, even if the protagonists do.

    Rab rakha!

  50. bobbo — on 10th November, 2009 at 4:57 pm  

    must be depressing being a communist these days eh commie fascist scum youve lost everything, your superpower backers, just about every commie country in the world has given your stupid ideology up as a bad job. now just when you thought you might be bringing it back here along comes the bnp putting the spanner in the works here too sob sob lol

  51. bobbo — on 10th November, 2009 at 5:01 pm  

    must be depressing being a communist these days eh commie fascist scum youve lost everything, your superpower backers, just about every commie country in the world has given your stupid ideology up as a bad job. now just when you thought you might be bringing it back here along comes the bnp putting the spanner in the works here too sob sob lol

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