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  • Far-right protests in Birmingham


    by Rumbold
    9th August, 2009 at 2:52 pm    

    Confused reports are emerging about protests in Birmingham between the English Defence League, opposed by Unite Against Fascism. The protests descended into violence, with riot police standing by. Two people were injured:

    “Police arrested 33 people during a clash between anti-fascists and a right-wing group as the centre of Birmingham turned into a war zone yesterday. Terrified shoppers cowered in fear as a group came into violent contact with Unite Against Fascism marchers in a violent brawl that dominated the streets.”

    The English Defence League is a shady group, which tried to distance itself from BNP in public, yet has links to the far-right group. The march had been planned for some time, and it seems that the people involved are anti-Muslim rather than being against all races and religions (or at least that is the image they wanted to portray).

    The excellent Richard Bartholomew has more:

    “The English Defence League had branded banners declaring their opposition to racism and rejection of the BNP (the name “Casuals United” was nowhere to be seen, and I see its website has now been renamed the “British Defence Leagues”); a BBC report shows the crowd singing the national anthem (as ever, first verse only), and chanting “Muslim bombers off our street”.

    Other footage shows some more aggressive behaviour, in particular the “who are you?” football chant; however, there is nothing (so far at least) apparently comparable to the May protest in Luton, where Asian-owned shops were attacked and some protestors wore balaclavas, or the 4 July protest in Birmingham, which included the chant “Muslims out”. Photos from the protest (the Daily Mail has some from Reuters) show some apparent EDL protestors being attacked by what appear to be local Asians.”


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    1. Kevin Arscott

      RT @pickledpolitics: New blog post: Far-right protests in Birmingham http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5470


    2. pickles

      New blog post: Far-right protests in Birmingham http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5470


    3. English Defence League leadership revealed 

      [...] has been a lot of discussion about the English Defence League, the far-right group with links to the BNP that caused trouble in [...]




    1. Mostaque — on 9th August, 2009 at 2:57 pm  

      Brings back warm memories of the late 1970′s and early 1980′s in Brum, on the way to school, after school.

      More MI-5 organized fifth on the streets in the run up to the next elections….expect it.

    2. Mostaque — on 9th August, 2009 at 3:21 pm  

      .
      .
      MI-5 is a curious confused organization, representing the best of “little England”. In one part of their head quarters in Thorny Lane, they are goose stepping around, whilst in another part in complete contradiction, they salute the Israeli flag…….and this is the essence of the organization, and the reason it has been “promoted” as a mediocre domestic intelligence organization since 9/11…….with more staff, and more powers and responsibilities.

      For those who are interested in understanding British politics and the British power structure you should acquaint yourselves with MI-5, and its MO in all spheres of British life……running soccer thugs; match fixing….to more serious allegations of destabilizing elected governments such as the Labor government 1974—1979. It is alleged Harold Wilson left office and did not serve his full 2nd term because of their harassment……and so on.

      It is a law unto itself. It cultivates strong linkages with the Rothschilds and the host of Jewish grocers such as Tesco’s, Sainsbury’s, Marks and Spencers and so forth who are all active in British politics.

      It is this linkage that is critical to British politics and way of life.

    3. damon — on 9th August, 2009 at 3:53 pm  

      Can we be clear about what we’re talking about here?
      No cause for alarm it’s just a bunch of overgrown childern.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zcbKaimpNs&feature=related

      And the reaction from UAF (or is it just Asian lads defending their hood?) seems a bit OTT too.

      Some young white racists will get a buzz out of walking through Whitechapel singing ”we want our country back” in the same way that I at that age got off on a bit of football fan rivalry.

      Fighting the racist idiots like that I think is the wrong thing to be doing. Better just to mock them.

      Just one point on Whitechapel. I’ve been driving through there every day in the last couple of weeks.
      On friday, I went past the East London Mosque at 2.30, just as friday prayers had ended.
      It’s always a sight to see, and I noticed there were several people handing out leaflets.
      And they were blowing all over the street.

      Five hours later driving past again on my way home, the area in front of the mosque, (now quieter in the early evening) was still littered with all those discarded leaflets and flyers. It looked a right mess.

      Maybe someone should call them and tell someone in charge there to clean up after they’re done for the day.

    4. Linda — on 9th August, 2009 at 3:53 pm  

      Check out the videos on You Tube. There is footage where you can very clearly hear the “protesters” chanting “We want Muslims dead” over and over. In the middle of Birmingham city centre at a time when the town is packed, including of course many Muslims out shopping. It was inflammatory - and I have a horrible feeling that this isn’t the end of this kind of stuff, there are far right groups out there hoping to polarise people by starting “race” riots.

    5. Don — on 9th August, 2009 at 4:10 pm  

      #5

      Bonkers, but in an increasingly unpleasant way.

      Your Jewish accountant will relay any bookkeeping info to a Jewish competitor, your friendly Jewish pharmacist will assist, your Jewish doctor, a clerk at VISA will supply credit information, the list is endless.

      (from the second link.)

      Oh, and Columbine? Jews.

    6. Don — on 9th August, 2009 at 4:31 pm  

      You are monitoring…

      No, you are posting anti-semitic drivel on a site I regularly read. I am pointing it out.

    7. Ravi Naik — on 9th August, 2009 at 4:43 pm  

      Don… check Mostaque’s “About me section” on the right side of his blog:

      Since January of 1999, they [MI5] have been using micro-wave machines against me from the UK—-an ultra modern form of modern technology designed to destabilize the target object, and thus control the target. It basically makes you feel disorientated all the time…

    8. London Muslim — on 9th August, 2009 at 4:46 pm  

      Prozac, seroxat, get some you need it

    9. qidniz — on 9th August, 2009 at 4:51 pm  

      And this……

      Who let this one out of his padded cell?

    10. Don — on 9th August, 2009 at 5:04 pm  

      Of course, microwave mind-control is still very much in its infancy. One of the side effects is paranoid ramblings.

    11. Don — on 9th August, 2009 at 5:09 pm  

      Love the heading on the first link @#8.

      Find UFOs, The Apocalypse, New World Order, Political Analysis,
      Alternative Health, Armageddon, Conspiracies, Prophecies, Spirituality,
      Home Schooling, Home Mortgages and more, in:

    12. Rumbold — on 9th August, 2009 at 5:44 pm  

      Mostaque:

      The one thing I don’t understand is how MI5 had time to organise the anti-Muslim protests when all their resources are devoted to keeping tabs on you.

    13. KB Player — on 9th August, 2009 at 6:32 pm  

      LOL Rumbold!

      Can someone who has got something to say about the scrum in Brum other than it was organised by the MI5, MI6 and the WI come and speak up?

    14. Dalbir — on 9th August, 2009 at 7:02 pm  

      I thought it was nice to see the asian boys fight back myself. Those of us who can recall similar scenes in the 70s/80s. When the NF were doing their thang and running rampant on a street level, will feel happy that these morons are being openly challenged like this today. The people have come a long way.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kc7d5T175Q

      I just saw working class white British guys making twats of themselves in public (again). Lets be really frank though. Guys like that aim to create large-scale racially based havoc on our streets.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcyCz_3AWUU

      At times they actually manage to pull it off. Especially “up North”. Their ability to mobilise people is increasing and I suspect that we will see more of this type of thing in future. Hopefully it will be met with stiff resistence because this is all such people understand.

    15. anobody — on 9th August, 2009 at 7:06 pm  

      I want some of what he is smoking.

    16. Suzy — on 9th August, 2009 at 7:43 pm  

      To be honest, allowing comments of the kind that Mostaque makes hurts your credibility immensely, especially to people who have not been here before. You should not allow yourself to be a repository of that kind of anti-semitic crap.

      Onto the issue itself. The racists have found their modus operandi and are going to concentrate on trying to spark racial violence. The media needs to scrutinise the leaders of this ‘movement’, authorities need to monitor them. Pictures of ‘Pakis’ beating up white lads is just what they want to make them appear that they are being persecuted. This is exactly what they want to do — polarise and start racial war.

    17. Don — on 9th August, 2009 at 7:49 pm  

      Suzy,

      Your concern is noted.

    18. damon — on 9th August, 2009 at 8:06 pm  

      I have to disagree with you most strongly Dalbir.
      You’re not equating like with like.
      Birmingham today is not like Southall 30 years ago.

      And what ever issues there might be in Birmingam these days, I don’t think that marauding white racists is the biggest one.
      Not to the extent that they have to be fought in the streets of a major city anyways.

      Though I talk as someone with a London view of things.
      In provinchal towns and cities who knows what its really like for visible minorities?

      But Birminham? This strikes me as a bit of youthful gang behavior. (Same maybe as what happened in Bradford when the BNP tried to hold a rally a few years ago).

      Yes its shocking and disgusting and disturbing for your family members to be about their usual business on a saturday in multi-cultural Birmingham (or Whitechapel in London) and to have two dozen of these twats walking along (surrounded by three times as many police), shouting ”Rule Britania”.

      But perhaps the reason it jars so much is how utterly unusual it is. It’s just some sad losers with now idea about life. Pity them.

      Birmingham is the city remember, where some communities police themselves to the point where vigilantes drive prostitutes off the streets, and even out of their premises. So we’re not really talking about a community under attack.

    19. Dalbir — on 9th August, 2009 at 8:47 pm  

      Birmingham today is not like Southall 30 years ago. And what ever issues there might be in Birmingam these days, I don’t think that marauding white racists is the biggest one. Not to the extent that they have to be fought in the streets of a major city anyways.

      Damon, I agree things are different. But complacency may help bring about a situation like the one of old. There is a strong shift rightwards in this country. A lot is going on under the surface. Progress has been made but don’t discount the possibility of regression.

      If you look at the tactics being used by the new neo nazis groups now. It boils down to mobilsation from multiple regions and then descending upon targeted areas and the subsequent provocation of ethnics there. Bradford was a text book example. Notice how the media in general represented things to the benefit of the BNP. From what I have heard from reliable sources, the judges Up North threw the book at the Asians brought in front of them after the riots. In all of this the provocation by whites groups who were active in the area in the immediate run up to the riots were played down or outright ignored.

      Suzy said:

      Pictures of ‘Pakis’ beating up white lads is just what they want to make them appear that they are being persecuted.

      There is a flipside to that - showing that such people will be challenged and defeated on a street level is the best way to persuade them not to bother. Whatever you may feel about it, this very thing played a large part in the abrupt end to racial attacks on Asians a few decades ago.

      I think the polarisation people talked of/feared is already here (admittedly mainly outside of London). Whether this will dissipate in time or is indicative of a growing trend is anyone’s guess. But it looks like racial tension is back for some foreseeable time at least.

    20. Sunny — on 9th August, 2009 at 8:48 pm  

      Lol - Mostaque is off his chain. I’ve deleted most of his posts. Any more racist ramblings about Israelis and Jews will also be deleted. We don’t need paranoid fucks like him here.

      That said:
      Fighting the racist idiots like that I think is the wrong thing to be doing. Better just to mock them.

      Oh not at all. If this mofos were near my area I’d do exactly the same. My forefathers fought the NF and BNP in Southall and a the next generation may have to do the same again.

      Shame they won’t come to Southall though.

      Linda - can you point to the videos on youtube please?

    21. billericaydicky — on 9th August, 2009 at 9:25 pm  

      Sunny,

      I mught have been out on the 23rd of April 1979 at Southall with one of your forefathers. Were any of them at the junction of Beechcroft and Orchard just off the Broadway at about 7 30 pm when Blair Peach was killed. Maybe we should all meet up in Glassy Junction and I,ll buy you that drink I,ve been threatening you with. Actually they sell Stella in there, yummy!

    22. marvin — on 9th August, 2009 at 9:29 pm  

      OK ignore this. Spam filter got comment but delete that too. Ta.

    23. JuliaM — on 9th August, 2009 at 9:30 pm  

      “Oh not at all. If this mofos were near my area I’d do exactly the same.”

      Of course you would, dear boy. Of course you would….

      From the Beeb’s report of the violence, a witness reports: “”You had people burning the Union flag.

      People were being kicked - some of them weren’t anything to do with the protests. “

      But I’m sure you’d make sure you only targeted the RIGHT ones, ouldn’t you? You’re kind of like Batman, I suppose…?

    24. marvin — on 9th August, 2009 at 9:31 pm  

      If this mofos were near my area I’d do exactly the same

      All very predictable stuff Sunny.

      Reports say innocent bystanders were violently attacked. What exactly did this guy say or do?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ_JTJVvMrA

      He doesn’t look like you’re typical aggressive nazi. But I’m not sure they checked before doing that to him. Who knows. But how would you feel if Hizb Pizza Hut were demonstrating and a muslim was limp on the ground? Who knows? Could be a vile extremist or innocent bystander. Either way it’s despicable mob rule.

      Does it take people to die before lefties and the far-right stop glamorising pathetic street fights?

      Yeh yeh fuck the racists. But there was certainly racists on both sides. Just look at the numerous pictures and youtube clips.

      Tooled up MPACUK members smashing people’s heads on - by mob rule don’t forget - is hardly going to increase racial harmony in our cities.

      I deplore the violence and the hatred shown today. Both sides.

    25. Suzy — on 9th August, 2009 at 10:24 pm  

      marvin, at the last rally that ‘Casuals United’ held, the former mayor of Luton, who is a Sikh man, was beaten up, as well as several innocent Asian passers by. ]

      The ‘Casuals United’ are intent on causing violence, and some people turned up to give it to them at the weekend. They went to Birmingham city centre, on a Saturday afternoon, where there is nothing to do with Islamic extremism, but there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people of all races and religions, and turned up for a fight.

      marvin, if you can’t see who is the instigator in all this, who is trying to spark a race war, you are blind. They don’t confront Islamic extremists, they are going into towns and cities, and they are infiltrated to the core by Stormfront nazis and BNP folk, and are targetting places that have nothing to do with Islamic extremism, and looking for confrontation.

      If you can’t see that, you are blind, a moral cretin, or a person who wants a race war.

    26. Suzy — on 9th August, 2009 at 10:29 pm  

      But it looks like racial tension is back for some foreseeable time at least

      Yes, I definitely agree with this. In some towns and cities, worse than others. It is utterly depressing, but there are people who want to see racial violence and carnage. I guess we are all Pakis again.

    27. Sunny — on 9th August, 2009 at 11:05 pm  

      Reports say innocent bystanders were violently attacked. What exactly did this guy say or do?

      I guess those Asian and black people these nazis were targeting don’t matter to you or JuliaM eh?

    28. Suzy — on 9th August, 2009 at 11:06 pm  

      There is a flipside to that – showing that such people will be challenged and defeated on a street level is the best way to persuade them not to bother

      People know that already. Pictures of five on one, especially if it is an innocent passer by, just feeds into the persecution complex propaganda that they thrive on.

      Not that they give a shit when the former mayor of Luton who is a sardarji is beaten to a pulp by these brave ‘Casuals United’ infiltrated by Stormfront nazis.

      There is a picture somewhere out there of them wearing black balaclavas at their last rally in Luton as well.

    29. JuliaM — on 9th August, 2009 at 11:35 pm  

      “I guess those Asian and black people these nazis were targeting don’t matter to you or JuliaM eh?”

      Because the thing to do when Asian and black people are targetted is to go nuts and beat up anyone with white skin who happens to be in the vicinity, eh, Sunny?

      Oh. Sorry, I forgot you weren’t actually there, just vicariously living it on YouTube. I meant ‘cheer on those who went nuts and beat up anyone with white skin who happened to be in the vicinity’…

    30. JuliaM — on 9th August, 2009 at 11:37 pm  

      “Reports say innocent bystanders were violently attacked. What exactly did this guy say or do?”

      And, by the way, that quote you replied to actually came from marvin, not from me.

      Yeah, I know, I know. We all look the same, eh?

    31. Sunny — on 9th August, 2009 at 11:44 pm  

      I meant ‘cheer on those who went nuts and beat up anyone with white skin who happened to be in the vicinity’…

      Obviously I haven’t said that anywhere. But it’s no surprise that you think if a brown person advocates hitting back at the BNP then it must means he hates all white people. That says more about you than me.

    32. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:08 am  

      JuliaM

      #29

      Not at all. People who see the truth and fight on the side of the oppressed will always be remembered. Blair Peach is someone who we could all learn from. His story is one that needs to be explained to the new generation.

      The sad thing is how the white working class youth are being conned into buying into this bullshit of white superiority. These people, who would struggle to get 5 A-C GCSE’s, are put on the frontline but are actually being screwed as much as anybody else. People from “Up North” being the biggest mugs. Like the ruling elite would think they are anything but plebs!

      But they want to fight, be it on the streets of Britain, the ballot box or even Afghanistan or Iraq.

      They are blind to the bigger picture and are essentially falling back on some outdated patriotic notions.

      This is as much about white supremacism as Islamist crap.

      The two have now formed a symbiotic relationship. Those of us who have not invested into any side are non entities to them.

      Tossers. I say fuck whitey supremacists and Islamo fundos. Decent people should be trying to outline a new way forward devoid of these tossers. Maybe they will wipe each other out? I can hope.

    33. audentior_watcher — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:46 am  

      I hear there is another rally taking place in Manchester soon?

    34. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:46 am  

      Yeah, I know, I know. We all look the same, eh?

      Get that chip off your shoulder, JuliaM.

    35. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:51 am  

      I hear there is another rally taking place in Manchester soon?.

      It makes sense for the football hooligan thugs allied with Stormfront BNP to target the north and the milltowns to help foment racial violence and carnage, they are saving Britain by protesting against Islamic extremism by…..holding rallies in city centres miles away from any Islamic extremism activity and projecting collective guilt and bigotry.

    36. Mostaque — on 10th August, 2009 at 1:21 am  

      .
      .
      Rumbold @ 12, intelligence agencies have been known to organize right-wing protests…its not a new phenomenon. The 2001 riots in April, up north, and the elections in May of that year.

      http://socialismandliberation.org/mag/index.php?aid=782

      Rumbold what experience do you have about domestic intelligence agencies, and their culture and MO?

      Right-wing riots in sensitive areas of big cities, which are guaranteed to create “problems” on busy shopping days don’t happened unless sanctioned officially somewhere………as a spate of events, leading up to a specific event.

      The police under the, “Public order and criminal law Act” (1994) and 1986….and 1936…can simply ban such events if they are sufficiently convinced that holding the demonstration will lead to a breach of the public peace.

      Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights:

      Article 10 - expression
      Article 10 provides the right to freedom of expression, subject to certain restrictions that are “in accordance with law” and “necessary in a democratic society”. This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas……..and by implication hold demonstrations based on ones opinions.

    37. Mostaque — on 10th August, 2009 at 1:23 am  

      HOWEVER:

      In most countries there are national Public Order Acts which proscribe how the Police must deal with Public demonstrations. The decision whether a Public Demonstration will take place is usually made by a senior police officer. In deciding whether to allow a public demonstration, the senior police officer must think about issues such as time, place and circumstances. If the senior police officer believes that the holding of the demonstration will lead to serious public disorder, serious damage to property, or serious disruption to the life of the community, then based on these serious possibilities they can ban any a particular type of demonstration.

      In addition the police will also look at issues such as the nature of the demonstration…if the nature of the demonstration is to intimidate certain sections of the local or national community, or the purpose is to incite further provocative reaction from the host community, then these are additional grounds for banning demonstrations.

      The police can also restrict the venue where the demonstration will take place; the actual route of the demonstration; the number of people in the demonstration, and finally the time of the demonstration in terms of the actual date and how long the demonstration will last, and when and where it should finish.

      A variety of issues come into play when considering the issue of public protest, which the law considers, and the police have a wide discretion to apply…random list:

      Willful obstruction of Public highways.

      Threatening and abusive behavior which creates fear among ordinary citizens.

      Immediate unlawful violence, or to provoke immediate use of unlawful violence

      Likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress.
      The issue of rioting, where a group of people go on the rampage, threatening unlawful violence

      Violent disorder

      Breach of the peace in an act or threat of violence against a person or their property in their presence.

      Sufficient notice to police that the demonstration will take place.

    38. Mostaque — on 10th August, 2009 at 1:32 am  

      Sorry, it should read Criminal Justice and Public Order Act (1994) introduced by Michael Howard.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Public_Order_Act_1994

    39. Naadir Jeewa — on 10th August, 2009 at 8:22 am  

      Can we ban the Eric Cartman troll here?

      Anyway, this post by David Neiwert’s been scaring the bejeezus out of me: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/08/fascist-america-are-we-there-yet.html
      . Tis worth a full read, but to summarise:

      “In a 1998 paper published in The Journal of Modern History, [Robert] Paxton argued that…mature democracies turn fascist by a recognizable process, a set of five stages that may be the most important family resemblance that links all the whole motley collection of 20th Century fascisms together.

      In the first stage, a rural movement emerges to effect some kind of nationalist renewal (what Roger Griffin calls “palingenesis” — a phoenix-like rebirth from the ashes). They come together to restore a broken social order, always drawing on themes of unity, order, and purity….
      In the second stage, fascist movements take root, turn into real political parties, and seize their seat at the table of power.”

    40. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 8:27 am  

      So Sunny is up for a ruck and thinks it’s all good?

      He was as useless as a chocolate teapot when it came to supporting MixTogether.org’s request for the Asian Network to give some support to mixed race couples. So much for Asians In Media.

      Which strategy do YOU think will help to reduce tension between communities in the long run- escalating violence or more mixed race marriages? I’ll give you a clue. One of these strategies belongs in the 1970s, one in the 2010s.

    41. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 8:55 am  

      MixTogether

      What you area saying is not fair. It discounts the fact that people may be targetted for attacks and may be compelled to defend themselves. People who would rather not. Some of us have witnessed the tactics of old, when mobs of white fascists would randomly attack your community. From what we are seeing, we may well get a return to those incidents soon (hope not). If so, what do you expect people to do. Hand flowers to the other side and ask their sisters out?

      The notion that miscegnation is the solution to it all is false. You can bet some of those that are actively racist have foreign blood in them if you went back a few generations.

      Besides, it is not like mixed race people have never been involved in race attacks. Sometimes a mixed race child grows up in an environment where racism is the norm in the family and takes this on.

    42. Golam Murtaza — on 10th August, 2009 at 9:05 am  

      Interesting to note which people have immediately stepped in to slag off Asians for daring to fight back. I wonder if they want a return to the good old 1960s when Asians were seen as meek victims and easy targets? My own town has a significant Asian/Muslim minority and I hope for its sake it puts up robust resistance if any facists turn up here.

    43. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 9:23 am  

      Oh no, fight back by all means if violence is unavoidable, but don’t forget to be the change you want to see.

      I am just questioning why the MT idea was met with such hostility here by Sunny. Mixing is not the whole answer, but it is part of it, no?

    44. Golam Murtaza — on 10th August, 2009 at 9:56 am  

      Hey, believe me, relationships between races (and religions) do it for me too. Especially as they appear to wind up the real bigots more than anything else!

    45. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 10:02 am  

      Naadir, I found this bit interesting in the link you posted:

      The fail-safe point
      According to Paxton, the forging of this third-stage alliance is the make-or-break moment — and the worst part of it is that by the time you’ve arrived at that point, it’s probably too late to stop it. From here, it escalates, as minor thuggery turns into beatings, killings, and systematic tagging of certain groups for elimination, all directed by people at the very top of the power structure. After Labor Day, when Democratic senators and representatives go back to Washington, the mobs now being created to harass them will remain to run the same tactics — escalated and perfected with each new use — against anyone in town whose color, religion, or politics they don’t like. In some places, they’re already making notes and taking names.

      Where’s the danger line? Paxton offers three quick questions that point us straight at it:

      1. Are [neo- or protofascisms] becoming rooted as parties that represent major interests and feelings and wield major influence on the political scene?

      2. Is the economic or constitutional system in a state of blockage apparently insoluble by existing authorities?

      3. Is a rapid political mobilization threatening to escape the control of traditional elites, to the point where they would be tempted to look for tough helpers in order to stay in charge?

      Have we reached these 3 points yet? Seems close.

      #43

      At ground zero, it gets harder to mix when certain attitudes become ingrained and polarisation takes place. Accusations of betrayal get thrown around. A small number of jerks may also start playing that “attack by proxy” nonsense on the other community by turning women into some form of trophy to be won through sexual conquest/conversion. That being said, mixing is inevitable in this society and I have family members in the generation beneath me that are of mixed race (although they identify themselves as Sikh). They are cool.

    46. Rumbold — on 10th August, 2009 at 10:02 am  

      The issue is not so much whether local Asains are justified in fighting violent racists, but whether innocent passers-by were attacked by them.

      Mostique:

      Do you have any evidence that MI5 were involved in the demonstrations? Any furthermore, do you have any evidence that they are spying on you and attacking you with micro-waves?

      http://cdn-write.demandstudios.com/upload//2000/300/40/1/72341.jpg

      (the enemy within)

    47. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 10:16 am  

      @44 Exactly, thanks GM.

      The reason mixed relationships wind up Asian, white and other bigots more than anything is because they are the ultimate refutation of their ideology. Street protests and fighting don’t even come close.

      As such, you would think that practical ideas to support mixed couples would be nurtured on a site like PP (As Rumbold has tried to do) not dismissed out of hand and abused.

    48. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 10:23 am  

      MixTogether

      What do you make of all of the mixed race people in America who identify themselves as black? Example Barack Obama. How do we explain this also?

    49. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 10:31 am  

      @45 mixing is always hard, which is why mixed couples need support. That is especially true now when stupid people are spoiling for violence.

      The only serious ‘attack by proxy’ allegations of late have been by Sikhs against Muslims.

    50. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 10:35 am  

      @48 point of that question?

    51. Leon — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:03 am  

      @48, Dalbir,

      My view is simple: let the person define themselves. If Obama considers himself black then I aint gonna be one of these types to bang on about his white parentage (there’s interesting parallels between them and the birthers).

      Respect the person’s right to choose how they identify themselves and try not to impose your opinion on what they should considered as.

    52. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:28 am  

      Point is that even intelligent mixed race children can choose a single identity. Many do, as in America. So to think that an increase in mixed race children will somehow usher in a new era of harmony in which conflict is eradicated through a new wave of thinking is a beautiful but unrealistic notion.

      The way you are going on is like people who have a single cultural identity are guilty of fascism. Do you think it is bad for people to want to be part of a community based on their religious-cultural practices?

      That is especially true now when stupid people are spoiling for violence.

      The only people spoiling for a fight are the same type of arseholes who were a few decades ago in this country. Get that right. Invading countries for their resources like we are back in the Victorian age doesn’t help the matter much either, does it? We are seeing a resurgent white supremacist movement in Europe. Feeding off immigration worries and fear of Islam to grow. Plus terror that miscegnation will lower the standard of their gene pool. However, don’t discount the jealous coveting white eye on the resources of the nonwhite world. For which they seem prepared to do all manner of folly (WMD Anyone?)

      What I find slightly irritating is that some people who champion mixed race relationships (not saying you are doing this), seem to imply that those that do not agree with them are somehow causing problems and are narrow minded. In the past I have had relationships within my own people and other races. If I prefer to be with my own people, it is not wrong. I know others don’t feel this way. That is fine. I like speaking the languages I know. I like the cultural practices of my people, although not to the exclusion of other’s cultural heritage which I frequently find awesome.

      I don’t think that change in society you are seeking will arise from biological miscegnation but rather internalised spiritual change in ones heart and mind to have a more positive, progressive worldview where we are more respectful of each other, including our boundaries. Is is the perceived invasion of people’s boundaries that is behind all of the conflict in the first place. Be this dictating the political/cultural practices we should follow or “takin da jobs and wimmin” etc.

      Sometimes I think we would be better of following models of community as practiced in say Canada. They don’t seem to have the type of nonsense we have here and have large communities of diverse races.

      Sorry, had to get off chest.

    53. bilal — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:29 am  

      Congratulations to all who stood up against the fascist “English Defence League” - this was a modern Battle of Cable Street where a beleagured minority stood up to the fascists attacking them. Long may such resistance continue

      One gets the impression from some on here, such as Suzy, that they arent upset that (innocent) Muslims were targetted per se, only that innocent non-Muslim Asians like the Sikh mayor were affected.

    54. Don — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:47 am  

      However, don’t discount the jealous coveting white eye on the resources of the nonwhite world.

      War is not the only way to deprive poorer nations of critical resources.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jul/03/land-grabbing-food-environment

    55. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:18 pm  

      bilal, I cannot account for the madness of your impressions. Please make an appointment with your GP - he can direct you to a psychiatric nurse for help.

    56. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:28 pm  

      Dalbir

      “Do you think it is bad for people to want to be part of a community based on their religious-cultural practices”

      Isn’t this what the BNP would argue they are campaigning for?

    57. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:35 pm  

      MixTogether, Dalbir has already said that he has relatives who are mixed race. Trying to portray people who marry someone from the same background for religious or cultural reasons as being akin to the BNP, a racial supremacist movement with roots in neo-nazism, is fatuous.

    58. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:44 pm  

      Suzy people’s choices are their own, it’s when others seek to police those choices that problems arise. My question at 56 still stands

    59. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:52 pm  

      Duplicate

    60. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:53 pm  

      Dalbir wasn’t policing anyones choices. He already stated that he has mixed race relatives and has had mixed race relationships himself.

      Asserting that anyone who decides to marry a partner with common life experience and a religious or cultural affinity, is in an equivalency with a racial supremacist movement rooted in neo-nazism, that actively campaigns to foment hatred and marginalise people from society on the basis of their race, and has elected officials, a history of violence and campaigning to deprive people of their rights, such an equivalency is moronic and insulting.

    61. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:55 pm  

      Just answer the question at 56

    62. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 12:57 pm  

      I answered it MixTogether. That equivalency you draw is moronic, fatuous, and insulting. If you don’t like the answer, don’t act like a cantankerous and condescending old man in response, that doesn’t get any purchase from me.

    63. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 1:10 pm  

      Suzy, you are mis-representing my words. I am not accusing Dalbir of anything, so relax.

      My point is that if someone chooses to be with a person of the same race or religion, that is fine if they do it of their own free choice. Equally if someone chooses a mixed race relationship that should also be ok with everyone. For anyone to tell a couple that they should not be together because they are a different race, be that Asian parents, the BNP or any other group, must be wrong.

      If you can’t understand that then i worry.

      I am typing on my phone which makes it very difficult to debate properly. I will stop here and answer any other points much later tonight from a PC.

    64. Suzy — on 10th August, 2009 at 1:17 pm  

      Don’t worry your head MixTogether - I understand what you said. This was separate from the issue of free-choice. You drew an equivalency between the impulse of people to marry someone from the same religious and cultural background as operating an equivalent mentality to the BNP. That is fatuous and moronic.

    65. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 1:29 pm  

      Where that impulse comes from a community not an individual, there is a direct equivalence.

    66. halima — on 10th August, 2009 at 2:17 pm  

      “Asserting that anyone who decides to marry a partner with common life experience and a religious or cultural affinity, is in an equivalency with a racial supremacist movement rooted in neo-nazism, that actively campaigns to foment hatred and marginalise people from society on the basis of their race, and has elected officials, a history of violence and campaigning to deprive people of their rights, such an equivalency is moronic and insulting.”

      Wow. So this would make most of the world where people tend to marry people of the same backgrounds… er.. neo-Nazis.

      I agree with you Suzi. Folks should get a grip.

    67. Leon — on 10th August, 2009 at 2:30 pm  

      As usual things aren’t as black and white as MixTogether would like us to believe.

      There is a complex web of dynamics at work when it comes to what creates and maintains a cultural/etc commonality. Just because you feel a certain kinship doesn’t mean you’re fascist.

      If I say my parents taught me the importance of my black heritage, and I felt a connection to that (more than my white heritage) it doesn’t then follow that I’m a black supremacist who hates white people.

    68. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 2:51 pm  

      #56

      Are you serious MT?

      The BNP are using that argument as a diversion to their real agenda. No one is stopping white people from marrying one another, no is stopping them Morris dancing, no is stopping them learning ye olde Anglo-Saxon/Welsh. No one is trying to change their diet. No one is saying they cannot go to church/pub/club/fete. No on is discouraging them from learning their ancestral language, ye olde Anglo-Saxon. There are enough white only areas in Britain for them not to meet ethnics. You see, what they really want to preserve is not culture, but a perceived advantage over nonwhites that they believe is an inherited right. This itself stems from their skewed interpretation of history that focuses on the recent British colonial experience.

      This is world away from two people marrying because they share similar cultural values and religious beliefs and wish to live within these and pass them off to their children.

      To make it simple one involves a strong undercurrent of hatred and wanting to put a metaphoric foot on the neck of others. The other doesn’t….

      You also have to factor in the difference between eastern collectivist society and western individualistic society. When people come from the latter they seem to characterise the former as oppressive. They neeed to snap out of that encultured view. Some, people prefer the security of extended family, although it is not without its own problems. Having said that, the rocketing divorce rate and breakdown of family in many sections of western society indicates all is not well on that front either.

    69. Rumbold — on 10th August, 2009 at 3:25 pm  

      Dalbir:

      I think that you phrased this poorly.

      “What I find slightly irritating is that some people who champion mixed race relationships (not saying you are doing this), seem to imply that those that do not agree with them are somehow causing problems and are narrow minded.”

      For me, it is a simple question of not judging others. You and everyone else may choose your partner based on whatever critera you see fit. I shall do the same. If you prefer someone from your own community, that is fine, just so long as you do not criticise me for not doing the same (not saying that you would, just explaining my view), or try to impede anyone from your community from picking a partner from beyond your community.

      Leon:

      But surely racial identity is simply a label, a description. You can choose to be proud of parts of that if you want, but at the end of the day (in my eyes), it is simply an indicator of your ethnic background. So Barack Obama is mixed-race. It might be that he sees the black part as having more of an impact on his thinking, which is fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that he is mixed-race.

    70. bilal — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:17 pm  

      Mix Together
      “For anyone to tell a couple that they should not be together because they are a different race, be that Asian parents, the BNP or any other group, must be wrong.”

      Absolutely-its vile racism. But it isnt the same as dissaproving of a marriage because the person is a different religion belief that often fundamntally disagrees with yours.
      A willing suitor can always change religion to accomodate; they cant change race

      For a religious Asian Muslim for example a white or black Muslim would be fine as a marriage suitor - an Asian Hindu or Sikh would not..

    71. Jai — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:33 pm  

      Suzy,

      bilal, I cannot account for the madness of your impressions. Please make an appointment with your GP – he can direct you to a psychiatric nurse for help.

      “Bilal” is the banned racist Munir in yet another one of his online incarnations (how many fake aliases has he used since he was banned — 8 or 9 so far ?).

      And this is despite the fact that he’s been told directly by PP’s editorial team that he’s no longer allowed to comment on this website, along with the specific reasons why he’s been banned. I guess some people really do have a problem with the word “No” — along with respecting the decision of the people who actually run and own this website, for that matter.

    72. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:38 pm  

      69:Rumbold.

      Expect more poorly phrased comments in future. My writing skills are barely mediocre.

      Anyway, my community has a will of its own. Even if I did try and “impede” (not that I am that way inclined), I doubt it would change anything. I’m not really the type to give marital advice anyway. lol

    73. Jai — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:39 pm  

      Rumbold,

      So Barack Obama is mixed-race. It might be that he sees the black part as having more of an impact on his thinking, which is fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that he is mixed-race.

      Obama’s autobiography “Dreams from my Father” goes into a lot of detail about his experiences and the development of his concept of his own racial identity, so that would probably be the best source of reference in the first instance.

      Also, the cultural & social legacy of the “one drop rule” in the US is also a major factor in why Americans with one black parent generally self-identify (and are identified by others) as black themselves, rather than mixed-race, and correspondingly why less emphasis seems to be placed on the white (or non-black) part of their parentage.

    74. Mostaque — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:53 pm  

      Rumbold @ 46:

      Explain the bracketed comment at the end in italics.

      Do you know me as a person, and my background, and history?

      I am presuming that Pickled Politics, including its moderators are neutral individuals who approach subjects with an open mind and are non-judgmental in terms of the views of people who choose to post comments. It has a left-wing bias which approaches subjects of interest to British South Asians, and the moderators aren’t here to Shepard or express bias against the views of commentators……..with the exception of Israel as a taboo subject, where comments have been deleted related to that country. There would be no point to Pickled Politics if it were a talking shop of the “usual crowd” expressing the “usual views”.

      Addressing your query about Micro-wave machines:

      The Soviets were possibly the first to use them as part of the Cold War in the 1960′s against the American embassy in Moscow. In response, the USA via Raytheon and later the UK via Marconi most likely developed these weapons secretly. After the end of the Cold War, the manufacturers of these weapons looked for alternative uses/justifications for such high tech weapons, and have actively advertised them for a variety of uses both within USA/UK society, and as a military weapon in the battlefield.

      In the context of domestic use against “deemed domestic subversives” the beauty of the weapon is that it can be denied that they exist, or have been used against groups or individuals…since they are portable, and can be used against a target from a good distance, and leave no overt torture marks……your skin becomes tanned, and you feel a hot uncomfortable sensation..etc.

      But essentially these are torture weapons.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKlKhMbK468

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5G0ZQ3JPMQ&feature=related

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=TOR20070405&articleId=5279

      http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18725095.600

    75. HuN73R — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:56 pm  

      Let me be clear that I am not on any side regarding this and I was not present at the demonstrations.

      However, for my 2 pence worth…

      If a group of people wish to rant in the streets about whatever they feel, isnt it their right to do so? Regardless of whether what they are saying is agreeable or acceptable to others? I have always thought this was an important part of democracy?

      Does the act of ranting in the street require people to “defend” themselves? (sticks and stones)

      Can anyone tell me, was the demonstration violant from the start?

      Am am certainly not saying that anyone asked for trouble. But, my gran always said to me it takes two to have a fight, and more often than not it is possible to turn the other cheek.

      My point is, just maybe, if there were no (anti) to this protest then a few people with views would have ranted for a while, realised that no-one gives a shit, and went home.

      Instead, there seemed to be a big whoo haar and everyone is now talking about it.

    76. Jai — on 10th August, 2009 at 4:57 pm  

      Munir,

      Its a great site,one of the best on the web, what can I say.

      And yet you show zero respect for the decision of Sunny and PP’s other editors to ban you from this website.

      Worse, you’re still attempting to trick them by using fake aliases in order to try to circumvent the ban.

      And now you’re pretending to be “Bulbul” too — http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5477#comment-174877.

      Oh dear, Munir. Not only do you have no respect for the people who run this website (who have told you explicitly that you’re not welcome here), you obviously don’t have any respect for yourself either. What kind of pathetic person repeatedly keeps trying to gatecrash a party under multiple false identities when the people running the show have already repeatedly thrown him out and told him to stop coming back ?

      Desperate stuff, Munir. It really is.

    77. chairwoman — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:01 pm  

      Goodbye?

    78. Rumbold — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:07 pm  

      Thnaks for that Jai. He has been deleted now. I am perfectly happy with whatever racial identity people choose for themselves. I suppose I could be a Dutch-Mongol if I wanted to be. However, that doesn’t change the fact that my ethnicity is white, just as Barack Obama’s is mixed-race.

      I suppose what I mean is that either ethnicity is a description of someone’s background, in which case everyone is a defined type, or anyone can be anything they want.

      Dalbir:

      Actually, I think that you write very well. Which was why I was pointed out the poor choice of words. All I wanted to point out that if you prefer partners from your own community that is fine, so long as you don’t oppose the choices of others.

      Mostique:

      The phrase in brackets was a light-hearted reference to micro-waves.

      We on Pickled Politics do approach subjects with an open mind, which is why I have asked you to provide evidence that you are being targeted by MI5 and that the protests were organised by MI5.

      As a moderator my job is to keep the peace, and delete comments which I think are abhorrent. I am neutral in the sense that I will not favour people when it comes to deleltions, but I am also free to express my opinions on any subject.

      Regarding Israel, we have no problem with a person criticising their policies. Where we draw the line is when a person descends from criticising Israel to anti-semitism (you know the sort of thing- Jews control the world etc.).

      Hope that clears things up.

    79. Jai — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:10 pm  

      Let’s hope so, Chairwoman. (Rumbold, you’re welcome).

      I’ll tell you both something for free: Given Munir’s obvious inability to take “No” for an answer despite hearing it repeatedly, he’s got the words “restraining order” written all over him……

    80. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:17 pm  

      My point is, just maybe, if there were no (anti) to this protest then a few people with views would have ranted for a while, realised that no-one gives a shit, and went home.

      Or maybe, they would have been even more emboldened and thought “Yeh, we stuck it to those pakis in their own manor. Rule Britanica and all that….next time we’ll go there and fuck a few up as well. We are such a superior race…oye oye!”

    81. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:31 pm  

      Dalbir why are you so paranoid?

      Hunter makes a good point, and your response is needlessly hostile. Hunter’s theory offers a potential way to avoid conflict next time.

      Too many here are quick to forget Gandhi, but there is a reason he is revered for non violence.

    82. Mostaque — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:35 pm  

      Unfortunately it is very difficult getting evidence against MI-5 as such, except what one experiences, and is informed of what is going on by others, where a few good people over come their fear of speaking about the subject.

      Private citizens taking legal actions against the police is common in the UK, and lawyers exist who specialize in that area….and there are many cited cases of the police over stepping their legally sanctioned powers.

      However bringing legal action against illegal intelligence surveillance, who work through the domestic police is that much more harder. Their operations because of the nature of their MO; they tend to be more covert than the local bobby……it is harder to provide evidence against them.

      Unfortunately with the rare exceptions of a few tortured victims of ethnic origin who have been mistreated by MI-5, where they had face to face contact with intelligence whilst being tortured, and are subsequently taking legal (I presume you know about these cases)……bringing actual legal cases against MI-5 are very hard; God knows I have tried since 1998, scouring the UK, and London especially, and more recently…..and I am qualified as a Barrister, though non-practicing at present.

      But maybe one day I will eventually get justice against them within the UK legal system. I have not broken any UK law, but I have been harassed by them and their associates without any explanation for their illegal actions against me. If MI-5 are working on hunches and suspicions about me then they should be brave enough to tell me what negative hunches they have about me.

      I am in the process of seeking some sort of legal representation around my case against them.

      Torture, which as been on going for over 10 years using state of the art equipment I am afraid is not a light hearted matter from my perspective. Have you experienced actual torture Rumbold?????? on a daily basis…without anyone telling you why this is going on?

    83. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:37 pm  

      MT

      I’m not going to lie. Seeing a bunch of chanting skinheads descending into an area and causing havoc brings back emotive memories from the past. I’ve seen where this shit ultimately ends up. It sickens me to see this stuff happening again.

      BTW. Look up Kartar Singh Sarabha, Udham Singh and Bhagat Singh. I revere them so much more than Gandhi. Although the Indian independence movement is commonly associated with Gandhi, there was so much more to it.

      Dalbir why are you so paranoid?

      I think it may be the microwave waves?

    84. Sunny — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:46 pm  

      He was as useless as a chocolate teapot when it came to supporting MixTogether.org’s request for the Asian Network to give some support to mixed race couples.

      But that’s nothing to do with my support for mixed relationships. That’s because I think you’re a pompous cock and don’t support your attempts to get more publicity for yourself.

    85. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:49 pm  

      It is a simple truth that the non-violent are superior to the violent.

    86. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 5:56 pm  

      Sunny,

      It is clear to anyone who actually read our proposal that MixTogether did not want to be involved in the program. We were just asking for it to be made, so it would not have provided any publicity to me personally.

      I don’t come on here swearing and calling you offensive names, is it too much to ask for that courtesy to be extended in return?

    87. Shamit — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:03 pm  

      “It is a simple truth that the non-violent are superior to the violent. — “

      It may be morally superior but not as effective when it comes to protecting one’s hide or pride - especially with racist bigots in the streets. Do you think they care about being violent?

    88. damon — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:05 pm  

      Who are these guys on these protests?
      A lot of them are very young. Are they from within inner city areas like Sparkbrook or Aston in Birmingham?

      I can see how young white racists in places like that might feel the world was against them.

      I still think it’s too early to be chasing around the streets after them though. Unless it really is a case of self defence or standing up for your community which is in a vulnerable position somewhere in some small town or outer suburb.

      What you don’t want to be doing is to artificially re-create the kinds of anti-racist struggles that you are too young to have been a part of, and so find every shouted ”Rule Britania” from some idiots outside a pub, as the signal that it’s the NF all over again.

      Seeing the school kids come out of school in the afternoons every day (even in the area where Stephen Lawrence was killed), it doesn’t look like these berks will be having too much success anytime soon.

    89. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:08 pm  

      Shamit, the battle is for moral superiority. Anything else is a false victory.

    90. Jai — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:12 pm  

      It is a simple truth that the non-violent are superior to the violent.

      Not when non-violence is an insufficient & ineffective form of defence (of yourself or others) in response to violent attacks.

      And since Gandhi is being mentioned, it’s worth clarifying that, despite his early musings on the matter, ultimately he thought non-violence was:

      a) only appropriate if it was eventually going to succeed in changing the aggressor’s mind,

      and (more pertinently)

      b) an example of “taking the higher moral ground” ONLY if you have the power to hurt someone but do not abuse that power.

      In Gandhi’s view, refraining from violence because one was too weak to be able to utilise it even in situations where it was the most appropriate response was actually an example of cowardice, not “moral superiority”.

    91. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:24 pm  

      That’s fine, I can see a lot of people getting riled up and a lot of old farts harking back to past battles, but i don’t see any serious suggestions for a peaceful outcome.

      I thought this was a grown up blog. How can you wish for peace in Palestine or Iraq if you won’t practice it at home?

    92. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:38 pm  

      That’s fine, I can see a lot of people getting riled up and a lot of old farts harking back to past battles, but i don’t see any serious suggestions for a peaceful outcome.

      Maybe that is because you and your family/loved ones are not in any potential danger from all this. I am brown. I look like the type of people the yobbos are against. So do my family. I’m obviously going to take it more seriously than you.

      Plus sometimes “old farts” as you put it, have the benefit of experience and wisdom. The youngsters probably think this is all new. To me it is a potential rerun.

      Anyway, it’s cheap of you to try and increase the chances of getting laid with some exotic chick off the back off all this. If you must get vulger.

      PS - I am not “old” per se. lol

    93. Sunny — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:41 pm  

      I don’t come on here swearing and calling you offensive names

      No, you just come here to try and insinuate I’m racist. Nice try with the victim card.

    94. Dalbir — on 10th August, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

      It is a simple truth that the non-violent are superior to the violent.

      That statement is simplistic to the point of being absurd. Wake up to the real world. Sometimes idealism is woefully inadequate.

    95. HuN73R — on 10th August, 2009 at 7:08 pm  

      In my previous post I was not stating that everyone should be a hippy and hug a tree untill the bad guys go away!

      Was anyone presesnt at this protest?

      From what I have watched on youtube, it appears to me that there was a heavy police presence. This makes me think that the police were aware that this protest was taking place and were most likely on scene from the start. If this is the case then did anyone really have the NEED to defend themselves?

      By saying “defend” and “self defence” we should clarify what we are defending against.

      the term “self defence” in law refers to the physical action required to defend ones self from an attacker intending physical harm.

      My point here is that if someone calls me “smelly honky” it is not acceptable for me to cause this person physical harm because i dont like what they are saying. This is beyond “self defence”!

      As much as I appreciate some people’s spirit in wanting to defend themselves and their own. The same spirit is what fuels the mis-guided xenophobia in some young whites!

      In my opinion, violance is ALWAYS a last resort! and just because you can see why people become violant does NOT make it the right thing to do.

    96. MixTogether — on 10th August, 2009 at 7:13 pm  

      Dalbir, my concern is that between all these eggy Asians and eggy whites, mixed couples like me and my partner will end up suffering.

      Sunny, do you have to resort to swearing and name calling to fend off criticism? And how have I implied you are racist? My implication is that you are happier to use violent than non violent means to solve a problem that affects us both. If you are really concerned with helping mixed couples, be a big boy and help by offering some constructive criticism of my ideas. At the moment you are part of the problem, not the solution.

    97. Rumbold — on 10th August, 2009 at 7:29 pm  

      Mostaque:

      You describe yourself as a lecturer in law on your website. I believe you. You might not be, but I don’t see any reason to doubt something like that. It is not far-fetched.

      Being tortured by micro-waves for ten years by MI5 is, however, far-fetched. All cases of torture that have been reported have shared a common MO. The suspect/victim was sent to a third country and/or Gitmo, where he was tortured with the knowledge of Western security forces.

      So, a few questions:

      - Why are MI5 torturing you, and why have they devoted so much effort to doing so?
      - Why are they acting in such a different way from the cases highlighted above?
      - Who has told you that MI5 are torturing you?

      Flippancy aside, if you are suffering daily attacks, you need to go and see a doctor so they can find out what is wrong with you.

    98. HuN73R — on 10th August, 2009 at 7:36 pm  

      #81

      ..and I am qualified as a Barrister, though non-practicing at present.

      I am in the process of seeking some sort of legal representation around my case against them.

      ________________________________________________

      Mostaque, why would you not be representing youself if you had trained for so many years for your qualification?

      If im honest, you sound a little delusional in your posts.

    99. Jag — on 10th August, 2009 at 7:44 pm  

      It may be morally superior but not as effective when it comes to protecting one’s hide or pride – especially with racist bigots in the streets. Do you think they care about being violent?

      Shamit, he doesn’t have a clue. He hasn’t spent a lifetime of being called a Paki, seeing members of his family hurt by racist violence, seen his nieces and nephews spat on for being a Paki bastard, seen his sister called a Paki cunt and had her hair torn out, never been in a pub and hear someone calling you a Paki, been on the internet and been dehumanised as Paki filth, never had to run from a mob of skinheads, never had to stay away from some areas because you’d be lynched if caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, never been tormented, bullied or experienced life under the microscope of organised racist platoons and their football hooligan descendants. Never told to get out of the country he was born in, never told to fuck off, never been made to feel like a worthless animal, a dirty, stinking Paki.

      Shamit, there is no point in discussing it with people like this. They don’t have
      a fucking clue.

    100. Rumbold — on 10th August, 2009 at 7:55 pm  

      I think that we all agree that non-violence is the ideal solution, but that on occasion, violence can be sadly necessary.

    101. HuN73R — on 10th August, 2009 at 8:03 pm  

      #98

      Shamit, there is no point in discussing it with people like this. They don’t have a fucking clue.

      ——————————————-

      This is an example of what i am trying to point out to you.

      Statements like this also come from the mouths of xenophobic whites. All be it for very different reasons. When discussion is stone walled, violance comes to the forefront.

      Where do you think this will end up?

    102. damon — on 10th August, 2009 at 8:35 pm  

      Jag, could I ask you where this all happened and when?
      Being from a big city and living in a house with two professional Punjabi individuals who seem to not experience anything like this today, it sounds like something from a different era.

      Who knows what it’s like in Merthyr Tydfil though?

      HuN73R, I think you’ve got it pretty bang on, but If these right wing guys actually did become a real fixture in some place, then I wouldn’t expect everyone to wait around for the police to fix it.

      Yeah, bash ‘em up (why not?)

    103. not bothered — on 10th August, 2009 at 9:46 pm  

      Bring back the hippie revolution :)

    104. Jag — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:01 pm  

      My words are my life experience. And the life experience of people who are in their twenties and thirties. They were directed at that pompous prick who was lecturing the uppity Asians about what to do when mobs of racist come to town intent on Paki bashing. Practise non violence and all of that.

      If we practised non violence we would still be experiencing what we went through in the past. It was only after Asians stood up for ourselves that they stopped stabbing, beating us up, spitting on us and killing us. But Mr Know It All strokes his chin and tells us what is what. If you don’t know what its like, shut the fuck up and don’t lecture other people.

      If football hooligan nazis want to take us back to a time when we had to walk the streets in fear for our safety and lives and the safety and lives of our families, if they want to subject us to racist abuse and treat us as if we are insects or sub-human, then we will meet them head on, and all you no-nothings like the one who gave his lecture above, can stroke his chin in the safety of his homes, but in the meantime, shut your mouth and don’t tell us what is at stake.

    105. douglas clark — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:19 pm  

      Jag @ 104,

      I am white, and I certainly don’t want to go back to that era:

      If football hooligan nazis want to take us back to a time when we had to walk the streets in fear for our safety and lives and the safety and lives of our families, if they want to subject us to racist abuse and treat us as if we are insects or sub-human, then we will meet them head on, and all you no-nothings like the one who gave his lecture above, can stroke your chins in the safety of your homes, but in the meantime, shut your mouths and don’t tell us what is at stake.

      What is at stake? I am not very clear you have the first idea of what is at stake. This is race wars talk, and it doesn’t sit well with me that a shower of football thugs are taken, by some, to represent me.

      I have no dog in the game whatsoever. I get on well with the Asians I know, and I’d be fucking gobsmacked if any of them came at me with a baseball bat. And, I’d be fucking outraged if some, up his arse, white supremacist bastard went after them. And, yes, I would try to get that dealt with….

      Frankly, you are full of misdirected anger.

      If you want to hit me, then you have an absolutely racist idea of who is on your side and who isn’t….

    106. douglas clark — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:26 pm  

      Are you that idiot, whassisname, y’know the guy the New Statesman gave all that space to:

      Darcus - street fighter - Howe, that’s it.

      A complete utter plonker.

      If not, I apologise, for he was completely off his trolley…

    107. douglas clark — on 10th August, 2009 at 11:41 pm  

      The point Ladies and Gentlemen, is that contrary to the fisticuffs tendancy that Sunny (Sunny? wtf?) has attracted, that fisticuffs will only get you so far.

      The vast majority of this country will see that, exant a defence of self or property, as wrong and bad.

      So, you end up in a media war, where brown is bad and football hooligans are ‘just lads’.

      This might be shit, but it is the media agenda. It is what some folk watch 24/7.

      I do not watch any media, much. I get most of my ideas from fellow commentators here.

      Is that a bad thing?

    108. Terry O'Stipe — on 11th August, 2009 at 7:20 pm  

      For me the worrying thing about this is that street violence for political ends may begin to seem acceptable.

      There are similar protests planned in the future and after what happened in Birmingham the numbers may be larger.

      If this continues official demonstrations of this sort may be banned and it all could go ‘underground’.

      I’ve got no answers here. On the one hand I don’t think the far right should be on the streets (and ultimately that’s the habitat of their politics) unopposed. On the other hand pitched battles in the streets and maybe even personal attacks don’t seem like the thing we want to be doing in the 21st century

    109. Mostaque — on 12th August, 2009 at 4:21 am  

      Rumbold @ 97

      Yes I am a lecturer in law teaching stuff such as International law,Public law,legal philosophy and other such interesting areas, but not in the UK if you read my website. I have several qualifications in law, including being qualified as a Barrister 2000,and member of Lincolns Inn.

      So, a few questions:

      - Why are MI5 torturing you, and why have they devoted so much effort to doing so?

      That is a very pertinent question, and one that I would like to know the answer to as well. Once one goes to a foreign country,the micro-wave torture is subcontracted to the security of that country,and is not actually conducted by MI-5 members,though they would be in the vicinity providing technical assistence, and their familiarity with the torture subject.

      In 1985 I applied to join the British army as an officer, training with the UOTC,and that would automatically trigger a MI-5 file and surveillance (all serving British army officers have a MI-5 file on them regardless of background)From the perspective of MI-5 certain sections might view with open hostility the possibility that a Muslim Asian could become an army officer in the British army….speculation.

      Additionally in 1996 I wrote a dissertation title, “The relationship between the State,the security services and the law.” Openning sentence…..”trying to control the security services is like trying to grab a slippery eel in bowl full of slime.”…….generally critical of the security services,and stated that given the nature of their work,they most often worked outside the law. Used open secondary materials as sources…..and after submitting the dissertation in march 1996 at my university UCE Brum,I experienced some strange, what may term harrassment events.

      In addition I tried to become a barrister in the UK, which promotes your status and profile in British society…….and given my background,and my points of view in the arena of security back then,that eventuality would be a major no no for MI-5, and a very strong reason for harrassment,using the full tools of the state.

      You should read about the journalist Julian Pettifer and how he was targetted by MI-5,for no apparant reasons other than he had upset someone in Tescos senior managment. Once surveillance begins on a person,these things have a momentum of their own,and that all too often there is a tendency for the security officer to personalise the surveillance.

      There is no clear oversight mechanism for British security. Parliament does not exercise clear oversight of their work, and they are defacto a law unto themselves….In that kind of an environment, abuses by them can occur.

    110. Mostaque — on 12th August, 2009 at 4:37 am  

      @ 98

      Mostaque, why would you not be representing youself if you had trained for so many years for your qualification?

      In cases involving yourself,even as a qualified Barrister, its best to get legal representation from people who are familiar with the area,and have actual experience dealing with similar cases (ALWAYS)……I don’t have actual experience dealing with such cases; I have never practised as a Bariister…….and since qualifying in the area in 2000, I have lost touch….drifting in Europe,teaching English and now law.

      Though the idea of defending oneself, Gandhi like seems romantic, but not practical in the real world.

    111. Mostaque — on 12th August, 2009 at 6:07 am  

      I have made a response to Rumbold answering his questions politely,But its not appearing…what exactly is the censership system on this site ?

    112. Mostaque — on 12th August, 2009 at 6:55 am  

      Rumbold @ 97

      Why are they acting in such a different way from the cases highlighted above?

      The style of surveillance and harrassment would have been SET against me after 1985,which I would assume involves disruption of ones personal life,and career goals……..prevent the target from becoming a normal functioning member of society, disseminating his perceptions, ideas and points of view particularly in the mass medium……and essentially that is what it has been between 1986-2009.Discrediting the individual as a…..Walter Mitty character etc.

      Not unlike your approach Rumbold.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

      Gives you a flavor.

      Those sad cases of etnics targeted and tortured since 9/11 2001 have been for different agenda’s….not related to me…..though MI-5 may try and tar me with that lot. God knows they have accused me of being a lot of things which are often clearly contradictory………….the accusations change with the time, and the situation.

      - Who has told you that MI5 are torturing you?

      My own assumption,based on experience and my own knowledge. Generally,in fact absolutely…..of the files of people MI-5 had on UK citizens,2-3 million at one time in the 1980′s they would not normally inform their target that they had a file on them, that they were being watched, harrassed and tortured inasmallnumber of cases…thats why cases against MI-5 are rare, unless they go abroad and are exposed. They are a covert surreptious organisation if you haven’t noticed.

      This is in contrast to the police who are more overt, when they make direct contact with a person,which allows the public to identify them,and take legal action subsequently.

      There is an abundance of actions against the police inthe UK,but legal actions against MI-5 are limited,unless the legal culture and laws of the UK changes.

      ______________________________

      Normally Rumbold, lefties take an interest in my “situation” or are indifferent…..they choose not to make an observation. People on the right tend to take a more hostile point of view, adopting a psuedo-patriotic position of us verses the “foreigner”. which in my situation is ofcourse not the case……..its about what is right and wrong; what is legal and what is illegal; defining the type of British society we want to have for the future….one that is more inclusive or polarised.

      Your tone of comments which I have come across a zillion times over many years is condescending and rude………so I shall not be indulging you and your comments again directly.

    113. Mostaque — on 12th August, 2009 at 9:54 am  

      Rumbold @ 97

      Why are they acting in such a different way from the cases highlighted above?

      The style of surveillance and harrassment would have been SET against me after 1985,which I would assume involves disruption of ones personal life,and career goals……..prevent the target from becoming a normal functioning member of society, disseminating his perceptions, ideas and points of view particularly in the mass medium……and essentially that is what it has been between 1986-2009.Discrediting the individual as a…..Walter Mitty character etc.

      Not unlike your approach Rumbold.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

      Gives you a flavor.

      Those sad cases of etnics targeted and tortured since 9/11 2001 have been for different agenda’s….not related to me…..though MI-5 may try and tar me with that lot. God knows they have accused me of being a lot of things which are often clearly contradictory………….the accusations change with the time, and the situation.

      - Who has told you that MI5 are torturing you?

      My own assumption, based on experience and my own knowledge. Generally,in fact absolutely…..of the files of people MI-5 had on UK citizens,2-3 million at one time in the 1980′s they would not normally inform their target that they had a file on them, that they were being watched, harrassed and tortured inasmallnumber of cases…thats why cases against MI-5 are rare, unless they go abroad and are exposed. They are a covert surreptious organisation if you haven’t noticed.

      This is in contrast to the police who are more overt, when they make direct contact with a person,which allows the public to identify them,and take legal action subsequently.

      There is an abundance of actions against the police inthe UK,but legal actions against MI-5 are limited,unless the legal culture and laws of the UK changes.
      ______________________________

      Normally Rumbold, non-Jewish lefties take an interest in my “situation” or are indifferent…..they choose not to make an observation. People on the right tend to take a more hostile point of view, adopting a psuedo-patriotic position of us verses the “foreigner”. which in my situation is ofcourse not the case……..its about what is right and wrong; what is legal and what is illegal; defining the type of British society we want to have for the future….one that is more inclusive or polarised.

      Your tone of comments which I have come across a zillion times over many years is condescending and rude………so I shall not be indulging you and your comments again directly.

    114. Rumbold — on 12th August, 2009 at 11:18 am  

      Mostaque:

      (Sorry, your comment has just been released from the spam filter).

      So once again you offer no evidence that MI5 are torturing you. These claims, on their own, would serve to make you a harmless eccentric. However, your anti-semitic rhetoric means that I am not inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt in that sense.

      I am sorry if you are in pain. Once again, I suggest you see a doctor.

    115. HuN73R — on 12th August, 2009 at 12:29 pm  

      Wow!

      Mostaque. If you are being watched/tortured on a daily basis for 20 years. Would you not have at least some proof of this happening over such a long time span?

      I am sure that the security services are good, but at the end of the day they are human, and humans make mistake. I would conclude that in such a long timeframe you would have something even remotly prooving that this was happening to you.

      Without any proof, I would take rumbold’s advice and go see a doctor mate! At least if you are being tortured, maybe a brain scan would show proof of this. Or maybe it will show that you are possible mentally ill in some natural form.

      Good luck!

      “just because your paraniod, dont mean their not watching you”
      -Kirt Cobain

    116. Mostaque — on 13th August, 2009 at 2:22 pm  

      Actual legal cases against MI-5 are rare over the course of the 100 years of its existence 1909—2009, even where there has been overt evidence of criminal activity on their part. There are a variety of reasons for this.

      But let me run through the famous obvious cases, beyond my insignificant self where MI-5 have broken the law, but were subsequently treated as above the law.

      The destabilization of the Labor government 1974-79 by certain MI-5 officers….they didn’t like Labor, and they thought Harold Wilson was a Soviet spy (no evidence of this since)…….he had visited Eastern Europe a number of times on trading delegations when in opposition……but the MI-5 officers had a “hunch” and they destabilized him and his government, an elected British government…..forced Wilson not to complete his second term, but left and resigned office disgruntled and disillusioned, living out the rest of his life in “genteel poverty”…..we are talking of a British Prime Minister.

      Wikipedia: The Peter Wright allegations and Clockwork Orange

      “Peter Wright has claimed that he was confronted by two of his MI5 colleagues and that they said to him: “Wilson’s a bloody menace and it’s about time the public knew the truth”, and “We’ll have him out, this time we’ll have him out”. Wright alleged that there was a plan to leak damaging information about Wilson and that this had been approved by ‘up to thirty officers’. As the 1974 election approached, the plan went, MI5 would leak selective details of the intelligence about Labour leaders, especially Wilson, to ‘sympathetic’ journalists. According to Wright MI5 would use their contacts in the press and the trade unions to spread around the idea that Wilson was considered a security risk. The matter was to be raised in Parliament for ‘maximum effect’. However Wright declined to let them see the files on Wilson and the plan was never carried out but Wright does claim it was a ‘carbon copy’ of the Zinoviev Letter which had helped destabilise the first Labour Government in 1924.

      On March 22, 1987 former MI5 officer James Miller claimed that the Ulster Workers Council Strike of 1974 had been promoted by MI5 in order to help destabilise Wilson’s government.

      In July 1987, Labour MP, Ken Livingstone used his maiden speech to raise the allegations of a former Army press officer, Colin Wallace, that the Army press office in Northern Ireland had been used in the 1970s as part of a smear campaign, codenamed Clockwork Orange against Harold Wilson and other British and Irish politicians.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clockwork_Orange_(plot)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Wallace

      MI-5 not held to account. Above the law.

      Then there is the case of Julian Pettifer:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Pettifer

      Where he was under surveillance by MI-5, for no reason other than the fact that someone in senior management in Tesco’s did not like him and his work related to wild birds and their habitat…….follow up on that one!

      Upon discovery of the covert surveillance against him, there was no legal action…..just sarcastic tut tutting against MI-5 by certain editorials in the Times and Sunday Times, thats it.

      Since then there has been talk of prosecution of MI-5 officers over issues of torture, I think………but these would constitute the very first prosecutions of MI-5 officers in history, since its establishment in the last 100 years. Prosecution would presumably mean guilty officers being removed from their job to other departments of MI-5? or retired early?

      Why this special treatment of MI-5?

      When a police officer breaks the law, the ordinary public in the UK have a clear mechanism where he/she can seek redress; lawyers exist who specialize in the area; there is a whole mountain of case citations related to the area; in variably the police don’t close ranks automatically around their own and then harass the plaintiff, if they feel there is a bad apple within their ranks who has overstepped his mark once too often……………not saying bringing cases against the police is easy, but we have track record of cases…a system in place.

      With intelligence over stepping their mark, that system of plaintiffs bringing action against them simply does not exist…….its a new territory, tentatively being explored only now with the first few cases. And only where MI-5 officers have identified themselves, at specific locations with the torture victims…face to face.

      _________________________________________________

      From Wikipedia:

      In July 2006, Norman Baker MP accused the British Government of “hoarding information about people who pose no danger to this country”, after it emerged that MI5 holds secret files on 272,000 individuals—equivalent to one in 160 adults. It was later revealed that a “traffic light” system operates:

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-394775/MI5-secret-dossiers-160-adults.html

      * Green – active – about 10% of files
      * Amber – inquiries prohibited, further information may be added – about 46% of files.
      * Red – inquiries prohibited, substantial information may not be added – about 44% of files

      So 53,000 files on organizations and about 110,000 files on individuals destroyed whilst Labor has been in power between 1997—2006………..that’s 382,000 individuals alone who have been under surveillance at one time or another in the last few years.

      When Dame Stella Remmington became head of MI-5 in 1992, I believe she inherited a few more files than the figures mentioned above……more in the region perhaps of 1—2 million, up to the late 1980′s-1990′s, and one of the persons against whom files were held, she discovered was one of her own daughters….this encouraged her to streamline the MI-5 filing system and reduce the number of files towards 500,000…..

      So I don’t think Dame Stella Remmington, former head of MI-5 is “Paraniod”, along with the more recent references, which all CLEARLY tell me that millions of people within the UK have been processed under MI-5 surveillance to various degrees since the 1980′s and even earlier.

      _________________________________________________

      With COINTELPRO, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO which has similar connotations to the style of harassment I have faced in the UK, and therefore a point of valid reference, only came to light after it had been going on for over two decades…1956-1971.

      It was eventually investigated by the Federal government in Washington, in light of the Watergate Scandal which de-legitimated government in the eyes of the ordinary people, and gave the nation and people the relevant level of cynicism to ask searching questions about the true nature of their government…how it really operated. …and Hoover, the Absolute Czar of the FBI for 5 decades had passed away by then.

      COINTELPRO did not come to light, eventually exposed because the victims of the program led a historic crusade to being justice to Capital Hill, and the FBI, and their American way of life……..it was a train of alternative unrelated events which helped justice come to light.

    117. not bothered — on 14th August, 2009 at 9:57 pm  

      I personally believe a different form of rallying should be conducted… to counter-attack the “anti-muslim” protests. “STOP ISLAMOPHABIA” would be a good start.

    118. paddy — on 12th September, 2009 at 7:22 pm  

      i live near codnor derbyshire and there was a bnp rally called red white and blue this was marred by fighting caused by the people protesting not the bnp as they have done alot for that community

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