Comments on: On Ayaan Hirsi Ali, women and Islam

By: Sunny

Sunny — Mon, 22 May 2006 10:50:49 +0000

I’m definitely not having this stupid conversation here.

By: Lopakhin

Lopakhin — Mon, 22 May 2006 10:29:04 +0000

Even in this country marriages at very young ages have only been abolished in the last hunded years.

What very young ages were they, out of interest? As young as six?

The reality is, that even today in bedouin culture woman mature alot faster physically and emotionally than they do in the west.

Emotionally I can’t comment on, but physically? Are you saying they reach puberty younger? Do you have any evidence for that?

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Mon, 22 May 2006 10:26:44 +0000

take a couple of hadith out of all historical, cultural and even personal context

I can’t imagine any context in which sex between a 50 year old man and a nine year old child is other than rape. Because rape is what it is.

By: Ismaeel

Ismaeel — Mon, 22 May 2006 07:58:05 +0000

Oh and the Greek system was for men to have male lovers and to have wives just to have children with. Hardly the great monogomous love story.

By: Ismaeel

Ismaeel — Mon, 22 May 2006 07:57:06 +0000

Traditional Islam teaches that the Prophet (PBUH) is the perfect and infallible example, being the last and seal of the Prophets(PBUT) there could be no defect. Saying that in Islam we believe all the Prophets (PBUT) were infallible but that the Prophet (PBUH) was the best.

All Muslims know that the Prophet (SAWS) married Bibi Aisha (RA) when she was 6 and consumated at 9. However to compare that today’s paedophilia is incredibly ignorant and malicious. Even in this country marriages at very young ages have only been abolished in the last hunded years. According to Christian scholars Mary (RA) was 12 when she gave birth to Prophet Jesus (PBUH) and Juliet of Romeo and Juliet was similarly only 12 (I know it is fiction but it gives you some understanding of the day’s norms). The reality is, that even today in bedouin culture woman mature alot faster physically and emotionally than they do in the west. The conception of childhood and adolescence are mainly modern constructs. Lastly unless you have some proof such as Lady Aisha(RA)’s own accusation etc and remember she lived some 30 odd years after the Prophet (SAWS) died and had ample time to mention it, than your case for rape has no legs. Lady Aisha (RA) narrated 2 thousand hadith and amongst them she mentions arguments she had with the Prophet (PBUH), his kindness towards her, the happiness of the marriage and the fact that she deeply missed him.
It is this kind of typical hack job by people who take a couple of hadith out of all historical, cultural and even personal context which shows the dangers of this personal interpretation people keep on banging on about as being so great.

By: John Browne

John Browne — Mon, 22 May 2006 06:14:50 +0000

The underage women think in one of the muslim books.

It should be pointed out that many ancient religions have stuff like this – how old was Mary when she had Jesus?

Its an interesting footnote that ONE MAN and ONE WIFE does not come from ANY middle east religion (Jewish bible has some very horrible stuff in it) its from Indo Europeans (Greeks, Latins and Germans – Read TACITUS on the Germans: “Their marriage code, however, is strict, and indeed no part of their manners is more praiseworthy. Almost alone among barbarians they are content with one wife”)

John

By: Clairwil

Clairwil — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:51:45 +0000

Well I don’t know that Muslims think Mohammad is the big I am. In my day they were taught he was just a man that received revelations. If you think this country is about to fall to Shariah law I think you are deluded. I accept your points about Englishness, though I dispute that Mohammed can be written off as a kiddie fiddler. Why do you fixate on the negative bits of Islam? We are all stuck in this mess together. Why the desire for fisticuffs?

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:39:45 +0000

Muslims themselves say that Mohammed is the perfect man for all time. So, knowing that he was a child rapist, I have my doubts about islam.

“Englishness” is not a religion. English people do not say that Elizabeth I was the perfect woman for all time, though many, myself included, think she was the best woman at the time.

Same with Churchill.

Sunny – I don’t hate people, I hate islam, communism and other evil ideologies.

By: Clairwil

Clairwil — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:27:44 +0000

Old Pickler,
It is correct that no-one worships Elizabeth the First as a prophet. However would you like it if I asserted that she was somehow quintessentially English. I suspect not. That beheading people is the English way? Yet you seem to feel that Muslims should be judged by ancient history.

By: Sunny

Sunny — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:22:16 +0000

OP you make out as if you’re a big Muslim scholar. But you’ve picked up a few things from the web and seen a few quotations after 9/11 and 7/7 and suddenly all of us who oppose prejudice are Hitler worshippers.

The funny thing is, those people you hate use the same twisted logic as you to justify why their actions. A few selected quotes here and there, a very narrow-minded view of the world. Twisting things to fit your prejudices. You all deserve each other as far as I’m aware. And now I’ll go back to working instead of wasting my time with you.

By: Clairwil

Clairwil — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:15:59 +0000

Oddly enough I take a dim view of false allegations against Catholic priests. I think Muslims should be judged by the same standards.

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:12:26 +0000

But nobody worships Elizabeth I as a prophetess and the perfect role model for all time. People do worship child rapist Mohammed as the perfect role model for all time.

And there is no political necessity to rape children.

By: Clairwil

Clairwil — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:09:19 +0000

Old Pickler,
I think all sorts of people excuse all sorts of things. It would be hard to find a prouder Scot than me. Yet if I’d been in Elizabeth the First’s place at that time I would have beheaded Mary Queen of Scots. Is that a mysognist position? Anti-Scottish? I think not. Would it be right for me to characterise the English as be headers on the basis of that episode? Again I think not.

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:06:44 +0000

As a feminist I go for Aisha’s view first. She didn’t say anything to indicate she felt abused,

For God’s sake. Was she in a position to say she felt abused? Had she said so, would her words have been heard or understood?

She was told that Mohammed the child rapist was a prophet and that marrying him was an honour. From where could she have derived support or assurance that she was wrong to reject him?

The whole thing about abuse, as I’m sure you acknowldedge when it’s Catholic priests etc, is that the victim thinks they deserve it or are even privileged to suffer it. And the victim has no voice – it is a non-crime.

He raped her. You are cool with that. Fine. Enough said.

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Mon, 22 May 2006 00:02:22 +0000

And Germaine Greer thinks clitoridectomy and jilbabs are OK. Basically if it’s non-Western she, a beneficiary of Western feminism, is fine with it.

She’s off her bleedin’ rocker. She should wear a sack herself and get her clit hacked off. See how liberating she finds it. Dozy bint.

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Sun, 21 May 2006 23:58:11 +0000

So Muslims worship a child-rapist, but that’s OK because child-rape was OK then and who are we to judge?

Sorry. I judge. It was, and is disgusting. And the worshippers of a child rapist need their heads read.

By: Sunny

Sunny — Sun, 21 May 2006 23:53:52 +0000

There we go again OP, lame analogies. But what else can I expect from you.

Also, see this: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/193

By: Clairwil

Clairwil — Sun, 21 May 2006 23:50:04 +0000

Old Pickler,
As a feminist I go for Aisha’s view first. She didn’t say anything to indicate she felt abused, neither do any of the contemporary sources indicate any disquiet over her age. I find a marriage between a child and an over age man distasteful , though it would appear Aihsa didn’t. Then again I write at the end of the 21st century. I draw equivalence because I’m highlighting things society finds disgraceful.

There is a very good chapter in ‘The Whole Woman’ by Germaine Greer that deals with underage sex. Phoebe’s story is persuasive.

By: Old Pickler

Old Pickler — Sun, 21 May 2006 23:34:06 +0000

And why exactly are you so obsessed over who other people worship or think is a swell guy?

Sunny, if people worshipped Hitler and thought he was a swell guy, you would be worried. Mohammed’s attitude to women, and the gender apartheid that is enshrined in Islam is just as worrying to me as colour apartheid is to you. And the fact that it is supported by the left and by feminists, makes it all the more worrying.

By: Sunny

Sunny — Sun, 21 May 2006 23:30:59 +0000

OP you really make the most bizarre assumptions. Who said I wanted to live under Sharia dammit? And who said that anyone else who feels Muslims should not be demonised also want to live under Shariah? And why exactly are you so obsessed over who other people worship or think is a swell guy?
I suspect you go by these rhetorical questions or explanations not because you’re an equal opportunities feminist but because you just want an excuse to look down on others. Anyway, I’ve had enough discussions with you and you don’t seem to dispel that idea so I’ll leave it at that.

I have written a piece for comment is free, which they should be posting tomorrow, on how men and women react differently on the web. Do have a read