Does more immigration cause BNP support and racism?


by Sunny
29th July, 2009 at 4:30 pm    

There’s been a lot of immigration into the country over the last decade or so. People say this has led to the breakdown in social cohesion. People also say that there’s been a lot of Muslims coming into the country over the past decade. They also say that because those people don’t fit into the cultural norms of the UK – there has been an upsurge in support for the BNP.

So. Does immigration cause racism?


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  1. hermes — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:33 pm  

    Yes

  2. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:35 pm  

    No.

  3. Carmenego — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:44 pm  

    Yes! These benefit scroungers are taking all our jobs, and destroying my right to cross dress in a pub when I want to. And they eat dogs. An-an-and they’re not INTEGRATING properly, by insisting on covering up their skin.

    I mean, it’s just SO offensive to my BRITISH way of life. I might have to move to another country where there are some actual BRITS, not like over here where no-one speaks ENGLISH and I have to eat KEBABS when I get drunk instead of ROAST CHICKEN like the QUEEN does.

    I’d give you some evidence, but I know you won’t be able to handle the TRUTH!

    Sunny, are you by any chance deliberately trying to provoke a reaction?

    Multiculturalism’s winning :-D may we all eat good food and make clever, attractive babies from a wider gene pool!

  4. Colonel Lomax — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:45 pm  

    Yes.

  5. Jai — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:45 pm  

    No. Only amongst people who are already predisposed towards racism, which may be triggered or exacerbated by immigration (or any number of excuses).

  6. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:47 pm  

    However, comprehensively mismanaged immigration and carefully managed exploitation can exacerbate latent or ‘soft’ racism. Immigration per se is a natural part of any country which expects to play a part in the world.

  7. Adnan — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:48 pm  

    Talk of more immigration does as there is an underlying presumption that the talk is about non-white or other undesirable groups i.e. never Australian bar staff, American bank employees etc.

    Also, it seemed to me, that the Right played the immigration card early in the New Labour administration (just like they did with the countryside protests) before anything could reasonably be done to fix the old system. That was before 9/11 and the wave of EU migrants. The tactic seems similar to the US Right going for Obama when they can’t really touch him at the moment (Tea Parties and Birthers).

  8. Andy Gilmour — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:48 pm  

    I don’t know – I mean, there’s quite a bit of obvious religious bigotry in Poland, but don’t know about racism..

    And are the Poles who come over here the bigoted and/or possibly racist ones anyway?

    sorry, might have misunderstood the question… :-)

    Perhaps it’s not the right question…
    Does racism cause the BNP?
    Does the BNP cause immigration?
    Maybe it’s all down to sunspots?
    :-)

    (apologies, I’m in a middle-of-the-bloody-school-holidays-nightmare mood)

  9. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:49 pm  

    Jai,

    Damn, why am I always exactly two minutes behind you in making the same point?

  10. Jai — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:56 pm  

    Don,

    Freaky isn’t it ?

  11. Sunny — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:58 pm  

    Urgh, need to sort out the Google Ads and try and remove that skin lightening ad.

    Yes, it’s a provocative question. There is a reasoning behind it. I’ll come to that soon.

  12. bat020 — on 29th July, 2009 at 4:58 pm  

    If immigration causes racism and support for the BNP, you would expect areas with high numbers of immigrants and areas with high levels of racism to coincide.

    In fact the opposite is the case. BNP support is concentrated in predominantly white areas with little in the way of an ethnic minority population.

    Look at the BNP membership list leaked last year, for instance: only 5 percent of those listed live in areas with a higher than average Asian population.

    Racism is not caused by immigration per se or by the presence of immigrants. It is an ideology based upon myths about what immigrants are like, rather than on the reality of immigration.

    And the blame for racism lies squarely with those who spread those myths: the fascists, the right wing press, and increasingly large sections of the political establishment that have chosen to capitulate to racist propaganda rather than confront it.

  13. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:03 pm  

    Is this a rhetorical question?

    Does chilly weather impel us to wear warm clothes?

    Does the absence of adequate toilet facilities compel bears to excrete in the woods?

    Does mass immigration from ghastly hellholes like Somalia, Afghanistan, Eritrea, Senegal, Algeria [et.,] cause racism?

    Hmmm!

    Well, mass immigration of GOOD and USEFUL immigrants Kiwi bar staff, Finnish nurses…] would be welcomed but no sane country would welcome Somalis except possibly as donors or corneas, kidneys and hearts …

    Multiracism’s obviously a big hit in Canada, too …

    http://www.amren.com/ar/2007/02/index.html

    and the Aussies are truly overjoyed to welcome the Somalis and Sudanese ‘lost boys’ – by the time the hundredth ‘lost boy’ was unpacking, the first few were trying their skills in street crime.

    NB: I am not repeat not a BNP clone

  14. Adnan — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:11 pm  

    There’s no problem with a sensible debate about immigration. It’s the constant drip drip of negative stories and examples like Edna is providing from the foreign workers’ compound in KSA.

  15. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:14 pm  

    Yeah, I’m not convinced that racism is “caused” by immigration. Racism is caused by racists providing racist explanations for “bad things in people’s lives”. There is a huge ideological component to it.

    Now, immigration does give rise to certain issues. Most of them can be managed. So, for example, you can’t have immigration into particular areas above the level at which public services can cope with the increased demand on schools, housing, health, etc.. You either increase expenditure on these services, or titrate immigration to deal with that.

    There is also the issue of dramatic social change within a neighbourhood. When I was a kid growing up in London/Essex borders, at my school and in my neighbourhood, there were kids from all sorts of background. So my best mate and my sisters best mate were from a Sri Lankan family. I compare that with my wife’s grandmother who lives in a part of London that, over the past 20 years or so, has become the Greek Cypriot part of London. She’s a working class white woman in her late 80s. Her neighbours are extremely nice to her and bring her food and are generally very social. However, it must be very disorienting to her to find that there is pretty much nothing familiar about her neighbourhood. Perhaps this is just what happens when you get very old – but this is also why Eastenders moved out to Essex (and became prey for the BNP).

    There is one other thing. Most of the people who I know who came as immigrants to this country – my parents are a case in point – did so because they were wildly keen on the UK, and proud to live here. That pride and enthusiasm for Britain is shared by most people in this country, including – especially – those who chose to come here.

    Being keen on Britain should be a powerful force for unity in the country: cf the US experience. However, we don’t do “patriotism” really: and when I say “we” I mean us, the liberal middle class Grauniad reading types. Well, some of us.

  16. Ed Gerstner — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:17 pm  

    In short, no. But that’s because its a false dichotomy.

    If it were a straightforward cause and effect then surely racism would be most prevalent in London. And that’s simply not true.

    In contrast, if you look around the world I’d suspect you’d find the highest levels of racism in areas with the least immigration.

    If it does play a role, it’s not immigration itself that causes racism but immigration poorly managed. The formation of ghettos surely feeds racism, but so do programs that disperse immigrants around the country.

    I have some sympathy with the idea that there may be some optimal rate of immigration that minimizes ‘racial’ tension while fostering diversity, understanding, etc. But I simply don’t believe that there is any hard evidence to demonstrate that the current levels of immigration are far from that level.

    Certainly I don’t buy the idea that support for the BNP is a direct result of immigration or immigration policy.

  17. Jamie — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:18 pm  

    Immigration causes racism in the same way Marmite causes people who hate spreads derived from yeast extract to hate Marmite.

    Or something.

  18. Jamesw — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:21 pm  

    There was no “racism” before the immigrants arrived – it didn’t exist – that’s obvious.

  19. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:22 pm  

    edna,

    Does mass immigration from ghastly hellholes…

    The question was immigration, not specific waves. Well get to that, no doubt, but one step at a time.

    no sane country would welcome Somalis except possibly as donors or corneas, kidneys and hearts …

    Don’t have a high opinion of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, then? Only good for parts? That might pass for robust humour where you are (KSA ex-pat, right?)but as a contribution to debate it’s sub-prime.

  20. Jai — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:26 pm  

    no sane country would welcome Somalis except possibly as donors or corneas, kidneys and hearts …

    I’m going to have to formally protest at the statement above. Implying that any ethnic, national or religious group — whether Somalis or anyone else — are intrinsically worthless as human beings except as being a potential source of “spare body parts” is an absolutely disgusting statement to make.

    It’s chilling to speculate about what is going on inside the mind of such a person who is so unable — or, perhaps, unwilling — to perceive and register their targets’ common humanity that they think it’s appropriate, correct, or even “normal” to make such depraved remarks about them, whether in real life or on a website.

  21. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:26 pm  

    JamesW,

    When, in your opinion, did immigrants first arrive in this country? And, assuming you have a historical period in mind, when did racism arise? I think we need detail.

  22. Ed Gerstner — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:28 pm  

    Edna,

    With regards to Australia: What about thieving Cockneys? Or the Irish? Common sense dictates that neither contribute anything to society. Except crime and the degradation of society.

    Or perhaps I’m living in another age.

    Every new generation of immigrants is demonized by the last. And yet despite the dire threat to Australian society posed by successive wave of Irish, Chinese, Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Lebanese, and so on, it seems to me that it’s actually doing pretty well for itself.

  23. Ed Gerstner — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:35 pm  

    Being keen on Britain should be a powerful force for unity in the country: cf the US experience. However, we don’t do “patriotism” really: and when I say “we” I mean us, the liberal middle class Grauniad reading types. Well, some of us.

    Here, here! David T. Here, here!

  24. KB Player — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:43 pm  

    Does more immigration cause BNP support and racism?

    Dunno about that, but I would guess that a lot of tabloid coverage of immigration and asylum seeking causes BNP support and racism.

  25. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:51 pm  

    wow Sunny, what an inciteful and thought provoking blog post. The debate is so original, why would anyone go anywhere else when we get such in depth analysis from you?

  26. Naadir Jeewa — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:53 pm  

    Yes. See Putnam.

  27. Roger — on 29th July, 2009 at 5:56 pm  

    To quote Mehdi Hasan, does Israel ’cause’ anti-Semitism?

    Or does jihad ’cause’ Islamophobia?

  28. Jai — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:06 pm  

    There was no “racism” before the immigrants arrived – it didn’t exist – that’s obvious.

    That’s false and historically completely inaccurate.

    If you’re talking specifically about racism towards non-white people (at least Asians) on the part of white Brits, it was far less prevalent before the start of the 19th century. For example, 1 in 3 East India Company officers in the subcontinent had at least one Indian wife, and completely diving into local customs, attire, cultures and lifestyles over there was very much the norm. Lord Liverpool was also known to be of mixed Anglo-Indian ancestry, he certainly didn’t hide it and often made references to it, and it wasn’t a problem in terms of his experiences in British society at the time or his successful election to the role of Prime Minister.

    Unfortunately, matters took a considerably nastier turn almost exactly 200 years ago. Racism towards non-white people as we understand it today was a result of several developments:

    - The systematic policy of the East India Company in terms of its officers stationed in the subcontinent from the early 19th century onwards, specifically in relation to a series of measures which were gradually rolled out in order to prevent and terminate assimilation and integration into the rest of the subcontinent’s society, including marriages with local women, the attitudes towards children resulting from such unions, and so on. To a great extent this was motivated by the recent loss of the American colonies; the British authorities at the time subsequently decided they didn’t want the same thing to happen in India as a result of ex-pats and their children (both white and mixed-race) being primarily loyal to the subcontinent and its inhabitants, and thereby posing a threat to imperial rule from London and potentially risking US-style independence.

    - The rise of Victorian-era evangelism, with the associated attitudes.

    - The rise of dubious theories about race during the 19th century, both in terms of “the divisions of man” and superiority/inferiority.

    - The superiority complex which arose as a result of successful imperial/colonial expansion.

    - And that’s before we even get to the issue of slavery in Britain’s previous American and Caribbean colonies along with the transatlantic slave trade in general, even though Britain eventually abolished it, or the wavering & hesitation that occurred during the American Civil War in relation to which side to support.

  29. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:10 pm  

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali herself acknowledges that she told a fine mouthful of lies when claiming asylum in Holland all those years ago; she was, she said, fleeing from a forced marriage.

    Just like Dyad Abou Jahjah acknowledges he lied unscrupulously when claiming asylum in Belgium, telling his interviewers he was fleeing from the horrid Hezbollah.

    By one of those disagreeable paradoxes, it was when Ayaan Hirsi Ali saw fit to tell the truth about telling her asylum-seeking lies that the goodthinkful self-hating white-masochist Dutch political establishment were able to jump on her neck as a punishment for running her mouth about the dangers of Political Islam and take steps to boot her out of the Netherlands.

    Concerning the recycling of body parts, if required the sub-title IRONY ALERT will be written where appropriate.

    It has occurred to me that if – as is promised – the Chinese navy sends vessels to put down piracy in the Arabian Sea and ajoining waters, they might choose to send a hospital ship with surgeons to ensure that usable parts of the pirates do not go to waste [a procedure said to be done with criminals' reusable body parts in the PRC itself.]

    While on that someone macabre topic, some PP readers will recall that the redoubtable Carla del Ponti did her best to spread the word that the Kosovo Albanians and Tirana-Albanians had done the same with the body parts of Serb prisoners-of-war, assisted by at least one Turkish doctor and – of course – at least one Israeli doctor.

    The story seems to have fallen down an oubliette of infinite depth, since Albania is now a NATO member and – despite the embarrassing incident concerning President Bush’s watch being ripped from his outstretched hand – firm friends of what we see fit to call the ‘Free World’ on a good day.

  30. Ravi Naik — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:14 pm  

    There was no “racism” before the immigrants arrived

    That is an ignorant statement.

  31. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:18 pm  

    There are two important points here.

    1. Racism is an ideological construct.

    I just don’t buy the notion that racism is a “natural” or “inevitable” reaction to the presence of people with slightly different features, or a different accent, to you. Even competition for scarce resources doesn’t inevitably result in racism.

    Racism in the UK is largely the product of racist encouraging people to loathe people with different cultures and ethnicities.

    Working against racism, however, is the natural tendency of people to get on well with each other. And, for that matter, to have sex and then children with each other.

    2. You don’t blame the victim.

    It is pretty sickening to hear somebody say:

    “Oh of course we all DEPLORE racism but it makes it so DIFFICULT when there are so many black people/Muslims/Somalians in [insert name of town] and some of the do [insert whatever it is that some black people/Muslims/Somalians do that is supposed to cause racism]”

    First of all, it is usually the case that the “wicked things” that the cultural minority is suppose to do, are actually done by the majority community as well. The BNP are absolute masters at spreading lies and distortion about the actions of minority groups, or the benefits that they obtain, or what have you.

    But the bottom line is that individual members of cultural minority groups are not responsibility for bad things done by other members of their good. They’re not under an obligation to denounce it, oppose it, take any position on it at all.

    The obligation is on racists not to be racists: not on victims not to be part of a group that supposedly “provokes” racism.

  32. MaidMarian — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:19 pm  

    Immigration is not a big issue – immigration is a gripe issue like none other. It generates anger, but anger, in contrast to REALLY caring, dissipates. Sure, there are die-hards, many of whom spend their days getting it all off their chests on talkboards.

    Immigration, as gripe of first recourse is thus the issue onto which other beefs get projected.

    There is ample evidence of people coming from abroad, contributing and making a success of themselves.

    By the way Sunny, the Guardian don’t seem to want to open comments on this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/29/moi-ali-trevor-phillips-equality-commission

    Any chance of putting it on here so that I can vent my spleen at this vile professional complainer?

  33. Kieran — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:21 pm  

    I suspect this is an allusion to Mehdi Hasan’s article “Does Israel cause anti-semitism” but I’ll take the bait. Is your assumption that immigration can only foster racism amongst white (or mixed race) people in Britain? A valid question given your attitudes towards racism vis-a-vis Jade Goody and Mehdi Hasan.

    Certain types of immigration are themselves products of racism, namely arranged marriages which bring in partners from the sub-continent. Does this outlet foster continuing prejudice amongst Britons of South Asian descent against “out” marriage? Probably, so there is a self-consistency here with racism and migration feeding each other. Those who are keen on diverse immigration would tackle this and illegal immigration, fostered in areas such as Southall, which lead to monocultural immigration from the respective communities involved. Immigration based on diversity rather than prevalence of existing communities would see a few more Botswanans and Indonesians coming in to Britain and a few less Punjabis.

  34. MaidMarian — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:22 pm  

    David T (31) – ‘But the bottom line is that individual members of cultural minority groups are not responsible for bad things done by other members of their good [group?]. They’re not under an obligation to denounce it, oppose it, take any position on it at all.’

    True – but by that token, if you don’t want to be tarred with the same brush it is a good idea not to stand too close to the people at whom the tar is aimed.

  35. Brownie — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:25 pm  

    No. Only amongst people who are already predisposed towards racism, which may be triggered or exacerbated by immigration (or any number of excuses).

    Completely agree, Jai.

    Now, where does everyone stand on this?:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/dissident-voice/2009/07/anti-semitism-israel-rise

  36. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:26 pm  

    Edna,

    Being an atheist without a moral compass I doubt I’d have a problem telling a fine mouthful of lies to a bureaucrat if I was young, up against it, alone and desperate. She clarified long before she was elected as an MP. It wasn’t a secret.

    I have posted on this blog some detailed and extensive comments myself on China’s attitude to body parts. Not relevant to this debate.

    As for irony, I think you have to establish a modicum of good faith on a blog before you can demand that your every offensive comment be shrugged off as irony.

    And could you start posting links to support your vague memories of something you heard somewhere? Not saying it isn’t true – nothing surprises me – but we prefer to be able to check sources here rather than spend evenings searching. You claim it, you back it up.

  37. Brownie — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:27 pm  

    True – but by that token, if you don’t want to be tarred with the same brush it is a good idea not to stand too close to the people at whom the tar is aimed

    I would have thought the obligation falls on those doing the tarring to be careful with their aim. It ought not to matter where I stand.

  38. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:28 pm  

    Is anyone up-t-date on their news from Asia?

    Bangladeshi settlers tiptoe into the valleys of the Eastern states of India, low-income places inhabited by primitive tribals, some animist and some – surprisingly – Christians.

    In next to no time, a community of Bengalis has sprung into life and ancestral forests are falling to the axe.

    Every so often the tribals – knowing no better, the poor dears – go gaga and hack up entire families of these Bengalis.

    Obviously, David T. and Sunny and other goodthinkful people ought to race out with a HOPE NOT HATE bus and tell these high-spirited tribespeople that racism and anti-immigrant sentiments are very very wrong and subject them to readings from the goodthinkful pages of the ‘Grauniad.’

  39. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:29 pm  

    hahaha – is that what this is about?

    Well, I think we’re pretty much all agreed that it is the propagation of a racist ideology that results in racist attacks on people.

    This would help to explain why there was not a horrendous rise in attacks on Buddhists as a result of the war against the Tamil Tigers.

  40. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

    So, assuming that this is indeed some sort of analogy with attacks on Jews/the action of the Israeli gvt…

    … then, somebody says “[Israel's war against Hamas] provoked this rise in anti-Semitic attacks?”, that is equivalent to saying “Immigration provoked this rise in racist attacks”

    I would agree, certainly, that both are disgraceful things to say.

    It is the demonisation of minorities by racists that causes racism.

    If there is an “event” that triggers a series of racist attacks – let us say, a fight between a black person and a white person – then the problem isn’t that “black people are fighting white people”. It is that racists have created a climate in which a fight between a black person and a white person attains a kind of cosmic significance, which in turn encourages white racists to attack black people (or vice verse).

  41. MaidMarian — on 29th July, 2009 at 6:46 pm  

    Edna (29) – ‘While on that someone macabre topic, some PP readers will recall that the redoubtable Carla del Ponti [sic] did her best to spread the word that the Kosovo Albanians and Tirana-Albanians had done the same with the body parts of Serb prisoners-of-war, assisted by at least one Turkish doctor and – of course – at least one Israeli doctor.

    The story seems to have fallen down an oubliette of infinite depth, since Albania is now a NATO member.’

    The Del Ponte suggestion were that a Turkish citizen sold organs to several people including an Israeli citizen. There is ample evidence that throughout the 1990s the Israeli Security Services were actively helping Slobodan Milosevic. But then you strike me as someone who approves of a bit of ethnic cleansing in the morning.

    What Del Ponte said was, ‘It is tempting to draw conclusions from these investigations, combined with the fragmentary testimony from the journalists. Stories of prisoners killed by organ traffickers circulate in many conflict areas, but rarely is it possible to find concrete proof which would separate these tales from urban legend.

    The syringes, the iv solution bags, the gauze are clearly material which confirms the tales, but as proof they are unfortunately insufficient. The investigators were not able to determine whether the traces they found were of human blood. The sources did not indicated the position of the grave of the presumed victims and so we did not find the bodies.’

    She spread the word about nothing. As far as I know these allegations were investigated by EULEX and the Council of Europe. The were repeated in a UN report in the mid 2000s (I think) but in the context of the rumours that were circulating and were well known prior to Del Ponte’s book.

    You are wrenching the comments made by Del Ponte well out of context. I suggest you go to Serbia, not only is it a beautiful country, they also have a good line in professional victimhood. You’d be right at home.

  42. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:00 pm  

    Maid Marian seems to think that people who feel strongly about immigration manage to get it out of their systems by posting their disgruntled opinions on the internet.

    The Dyaks of East Kalimantan who hack up Madurese settlers, the tribals of the Eastern states of India who massacre Bengali settlers and the scummy Prod youths of Belfast who encouraged the Roma thieves and beggars to find another place to thieve and beg do not content themselves with posting impotently on blogs.

    Nor did those Native Americans who saw what was coming back in the 1600s and massacred white settlers in King Philip’s War. Nor did the Ainu of northern Honshu and Hokkaido.

    The Native Americans and Ainu were born down by sheer weight of numbers; their descendents now run tourist facilities.

  43. MaidMarian — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:06 pm  

    Edna Welthorpe (42) – ‘Maid Marian seems to think that people who feel strongly about immigration manage to get it out of their systems by posting their disgruntled opinions on the internet…. the scummy Prod youths of Belfast who encouraged the Roma thieves and beggars to find another place to thieve and beg do not content themselves with posting impotently on blogs.’

    Oh no dearie, far from it. In fact I have sympathy for the residents of Belfast, but that’s another story.

    I am well aware that there are people out there who choose direct action (rightly or wrongly) over internet frothing.

    In my comment I was only talking about gutless loudmouths like you.

  44. Soso — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:07 pm  

    This question isn’t phrased properly. Immigration, especially mass immigration from vastly different cultures triggers a sense of social and moral anomie, and that anomie…which is unavoidable…can be exploited for xenophobic and racist purposes.

    There is one other thing. Most of the people who I know who came as immigrants to this country – my parents are a case in point – did so because they were wildly keen on the UK, and proud to live here.That pride and enthusiasm for Britain is shared by most people in this country, including – especially – those who chose to come here.

    That was then, this is now.

    Britian no longer has a coherent culture into which immigrants can insert themselves. Nor are there the same pressures to integrate that were present only a few decades ago.

    Even the term ‘immigrant’ has become misleading.

    Some ‘immigrants’ are merely economic migrants, whereas others, with their determination to not integrate, resemble settlers more than immigrants, and still others are protracted commuters who’ll stay, work for several years and then return home, as in the case of those “polish plummers”.

    In an era of mass transportation and mass communication, satellite T.V. and all, the mere thought of integration and assimilation into the culture of ones “adopted” country becomes meaningless.

    What would be the advatages? What would be gained? Why would someone want to integrate into a society that no longer respects itself and which subordinates it culture, its mores and its traditions to some contrived, muliticultural construct?

    What made Britian attractive 50 years ago for immigrants, namely its culture, mores and traditions, are now mocked and denigrated, and on the rare occasions when they are invoked, are often greeted with contempt when they aren’t portrayed as ‘racist’.

    Who on earth gravitates towards that which is mocked, denigrated and even considered racist?

  45. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:09 pm  

    “the scummy Prod youths of Belfast who encouraged the Roma thieves and beggars to find another place to thieve and beg do not content themselves with posting impotently on blogs.”

    Yeah

    The “scummy Prod youth” in question is a chap called Niall Colton who is the son of a prominent Belfast QC. Colton himself used to the the president of Queens University Belfast’s Law Society:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8130510.stm

    Niall Colton – when an angelic 11 year old – was JK Rowling’s choice to play Harry Potter. The job went to a pupil at my old high school instead.

    http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=6447

    Very clearly, the cause of racism is not getting to star in a film.

    Fucking mudbloods.

  46. Don — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:16 pm  

    The Dyaks of East Kalimantan who hack up Madurese settlers

    No irony alert? What is your point? How do the Madurese in Kalimantan relate to the topic?

  47. MaidMarian — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:18 pm  

    Soso (44) – Interesting comment.

    ‘Some ‘immigrants’ are merely economic migrants, whereas others, with their determination to not integrate, resemble settlers more than immigrants, and still others are protracted commuters who’ll stay, work for several years and then return home, as in the case of those “polish plummers”.’

    I take the point you are making, but this has always existed. My uncles went to Germany for a few years to work on the building sites in the 1970s I totally take the point you make here, but one problem with the immigration debate is a tendency to look back on good old days that never were. What you are talking about in not really a change.

    ‘In an era of mass transportation and mass communication, satellite T.V. and all, the mere thought of integration and assimilation into the culture of ones “adopted” country becomes meaningless.’

    I don’t think I necessarily agree with this. Many people come, integrate culturally and the like. I see no reason why people can not ‘buy in’ (for want of a better term) to the UK. Indeed, couldn’t you equally say that assimilation into one’s ‘home’ country is weaker because of the things you mention? Surely how meaninful an identity is is for the induvidual alone?

    Interesing points though.

  48. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:19 pm  

    Oh, and while we are doing “interesting pieces of trivia” ….

    … have a look at this comment on the Mehdi Hasan blog about Israel “causing” antisemitism:

    Gideon Polya
    26 July 2009 at 04:06
    A very sensible article by Mehdi Hasan.

    Gideon Polya is a conspiracy theorist who claims that Mossad and the CIA carried out the acts of mass murder on 9/11, see for example the following article in which he claims that this has been confirmed by a former Italian PM:

    http://www.countercurrents.org/polya150508.htm

    (It goes without saying that he wasn’t…)

  49. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:22 pm  

    Anyhow, Sunny, when are you going to flip this argument, and do your “gotcha”

    ?

  50. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:26 pm  

    The Carla Del Ponte tale was always too good to be true, sad to say. The evil Jew in a crude makeshift laboratory in the Balkans chuckling as he harvests the organs of Christian patriots is low-budget-B-movie-meets-Nazi-propaganda.

    If, indeed, the Israelis were standing by Serbia, it is to their credit. It is certainly to the great discredit of Russia that fighter squadrons and SAM units were not raced to Serbia’s defence. But that’s another story altogether.

    Giving links rather than encouraging PP readers to do a little searching for themselves is commendable, up to a point.

    Here are two items of interest concerning the linked issues of immigration and community:

    http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070701_diversity.htm

    and

    http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/041027_immigration.htm

  51. anobody — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:32 pm  

    Yes to BNP support.
    No to racism.

    I don’t think all BNP supporters are racist.

  52. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:36 pm  

    The evil Jew in a crude makeshift laboratory in the Balkans chuckling as he harvests the organs of Christian patriots is low-budget-B-movie-meets-Nazi-propaganda.

    A very similar story did well commercially when it was turned into a film:

    A Turkish movie [the Valley of the Wolves] featuring American actor Gary Busey as a Jewish U.S. army doctor who cuts out the organs of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and sells them to wealthy foreign clients is breaking all box office records in Turkey.

    I believe that the wife of the President attended the premiere of the film.

    If you’re looking for the ideology that underpins hate attacks on Jews, here’s a good example.

  53. Soso — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:36 pm  

    Maid Marian (47)

    Satellite communications, cheap air travel and many other factors all act in unison these days to weaken any sense of attachment immigrants may develope for their adopted country.

    I have family who work in the Mid-east and who have lived there for nearly ten years now.

    They aren’t immigrants, but just “protracted commuters” who return to their home country every year on holiday and who have every intention of retiring in that same home country.

    When my ancestors emmigrated to N. America in the 19th century, they knew they’d never see Europe again, and were probably committed to their country of adoption before they even got off the boat. They became, for all practical purposes, ‘deceased’in the eyes of the family members they left behind.

    That sense of finality, that sense of no return were instumental in creating the pressures that had them thoroughly integrated into their new country within a single generation.

    That sense of finality, of no-return, of knowing you’d never see the ‘old’ country again don’t exist anymore and so neither do the accompanying pressures to quickly integrate.

    Immigration is very, VERY different from what it was just 50 or 60 years ago.

    These days it takes no more than 15 hours to travel just about anywhere on the globe, and the cell-phones and internet make it possible to communicate, and to do so cheaply and in mere seconds, with family members 1000s of miles away.

    We’re now in a situation where virtually no pressures exist forcing people to integrate into their ‘adopted’ country.

    500 years ago the earth was flat.

    150 years ago it was round.

    Today it’s just very, VERY small.

  54. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:38 pm  

    Larry Feign’s ‘World of Lily Wong’ cartoon series was dropped abruptly from a leading Hong Kong newspaper when he dared to raise the dreadful [?] subject of executed criminals’ organs being harvested for re-use.

    http://lilywong.net/

  55. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 7:49 pm  

    Anyhow, I am off now. Somebody email me if Sunny does his “gotcha”.

  56. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:08 pm  

    Flicking from here to CCTV-9 and its usually cheery view of world news and Chinese news reminded me that not everyone in Eastern Turkestan and Tibet is ecstatic about the benefits conferred on the primitive indigenous races by Han immigration.

    No doubt the inhabitants of Kashgar, Urumchi and Lhasa are constantly assured that the local health services would collapse without the devoted and skilled labour of Han immigrants.

  57. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:09 pm  

    David T

    A very similar story did well commercially when it was turned into a film:

    A Turkish movie [the Valley of the Wolves] featuring American actor Gary Busey as a Jewish U.S. army doctor who cuts out the organs of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and sells them to wealthy foreign clients is breaking all box office records in Turkey.

    I believe that the wife of the President attended the premiere of the film.

    If you’re looking for the ideology that underpins hate attacks on Jews, here’s a good example.

    Give over David T. This is small beer. Hollywood has been demonising and vilify Arabs for decades. It makes US bombing of Arab countries and hate attacks on Arabs all the more palatable

    The author Jack Shaheen wrote an excellent book on the subject:
    Reel Bad Arabs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_N4BcaIPY
    http://www.reelbadarabs.com/

    Reel Bad Arabs:How Hollywood Vilifies a People
    A new book suggests it’s not just light-hearted fun whenHollywood blockbusters are part of the war machine

    http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=7219

    http://www.seattlepi.com/tv/63118_tv21.shtml

  58. Stu — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:16 pm  

    Look its obvious, people for many reasons Can’t Join the BNP or talk openely about being a member as it would stir so much crap up. Media etc has once again made teh BNP out to be some kind of fascist Nazi group.
    My argument isnt with the immigrants, in their shoes id do the same, take whats on offer, my argument is with the “Current government” and their purposely relaxed rules. IF everyone that wanted to or believed in the BNP did vote, it would be a darn site higher than 1 million people let me tell you!
    The BNP have been misinterpreted, lied about & judged by idiots.
    Who agreed to allow SO many immigrants in this country?
    Rightly so, some “Immigrants” should be allowed to come here. For example, like Labour said, they would allow 5000 POLS per year! that was 5 years ago so by rights, we should have about 25,000 POLS?? yea right! times that by about 100! There are infact 25,000+, Polish Babies being born in GB. Thats more babies being born that Labour said we would have as a Total residencey!
    Now we go on to Muslims, Turks, Kurds, Romanians, Africans etc etc etc… GB is just a mini America and look at the state of that Country! A Power state, now they want to make Europe a power state, we cant have 2 power states so what will happen?
    trying to fit 1 litre of fluid into a pint glass. just isnt happening, im not hanging around to make this glass bigger as it is already showing signs of shattering.
    I found out the other day, Tony Blair had the most votes for Prime Minister when he was elected and look what he has done to us and continues to do, are we going to vote his siamese brother David Cameron in to make things worse and allow a futher 80 million Turkish & 50 african Muslims access to GB?
    Where the heck are they going to live? What jobs are they going to do? what tax payers money are they going to spend?
    Ask yourself this question and is you disagree tell me where it will all come from.
    these people send half their money back home, Electrical items clothing, Jeeps cars all dissapearing in large metal shipment containers. Thats why we have no money here, its not being put back in to circulation.
    Once GB has been dripped dry, they will abandon ship and leave us to pick up the pieces. Then maybe you will think about voting BNP when you see the ending in your face as fresh as a daisy or even worse, your kids will!.
    VOTE BNP and actually do something to save this country from its demise..
    thanks if you have read this far ;)

  59. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:17 pm  

    It is probable that the goodthinkful people who read and contribute to PP all detest the momory of the dreadfully nutty Enoch Powell, but some may never have actually read the speech that caused all the fuss:

    http://www.vdare.com/misc/powell_speech.htm

    How appallingly crazy he seemed then!

  60. Brownie — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:18 pm  

    This is an attempted ‘gotcha’? I hope not. If so, it means Sunny was expecting people like me, who were repulsed by Hasan’s “Israel “causes” anti-semitism” article, to suddenly agree that immigration causes racism.

    In other words, it would mean he doesn’t understand or know the first thing about me.

  61. Shamit — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:30 pm  

    On a recent trip I was sitting next to an American expat who now lives in Mumbai; I wonder whether the Indians should throw them out. After all bloody immigrants.

    Why was there so much indignation when Mugabe forcibly tried to take over land owned by generations by white families? – Why did people world over object to that? Edna, those immigrants deserve it right.

    Well – this continuous selling of false bill of goods by those who seem to share this idea that no one asked the British people whether they asked for immigrants is really irking me. Last time, I checked we have been a democracy for far longer than this sudden burst of immigration that Sunny refers to here — and if people really hated the concept of immigration then why did not they throw out those law makers and put in the NF or the BNP.

    Well because the British people have far more sense than the BNP or their supporters give them credit for. And that is why in one of the more “white” constituency they GOT ONLY 943 VOTES.

    Edna — Don asked you a question on the other thread – could we have an answer please. Also, I agree with Jai – it is disgusting and definitely very BNPisque the way you defined Somalis.

  62. Rumbold — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:31 pm  

    To reinforce what others have said…

    Does immigration cause racism? Yes, in the sense it, or the perception of it, can cause/increase racism. Does that justify it? No, of course not. For a comparison, we might say a man beat his wife because she went out with her friends. We have identified the cause, but it doesn’t in any way justify it. And there are obviously plenty of other factors that influenced it.

    Brownie:

    I don’t think this was an attempted anything. Just a question. Sunny likes to make his points clearly (whatever one thinks of particular ones).

  63. Shamit — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:32 pm  

    Stu

    Again selling false bill of goods – what about the Britons who go and choose to live in parts of Europe such as Croatia, Bulgaria etc.

    As for the BNP – they are lying scumbags

  64. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:37 pm  

    Stu at #58 was dreadfully incoherent, wasn’t he?

    We can be certain that the very clever and ever-enterprising Aden-born but Oxford-educated Vaz would have refuted him sharply, but – tragically – a lot of Brits seem to agree with Stu:

    http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2009/07/eight_out_of_10.php

    But clever Postman Pat at the Home Office and One-Eyed McBroon will ensure that the desires of ordinary Brits are treated with appropriate contempt and disdain!

    [2nd attempt to send by satellite]

  65. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:37 pm  

    “Give over David T. This is small beer. Hollywood has been demonising and vilify Arabs for decades.”

    Precisely how is this an argument for vilifying Jews escapes me.

    Rumbold, I think it is this which has got Brownie suspicious:

    Sunny:

    Yes, it’s a provocative question. There is a reasoning behind it. I’ll come to that soon.

  66. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:38 pm  

    David T

    Oh, and while we are doing “interesting pieces of trivia” ….

    … have a look at this comment on the Mehdi Hasan blog about Israel “causing” antisemitism:

    Gideon Polya
    26 July 2009 at 04:06
    A very sensible article by Mehdi Hasan.

    Gideon Polya is a conspiracy theorist who claims that Mossad and the CIA carried out the acts of mass murder on 9/11, see for example the following article in which he claims that this has been confirmed by a former Italian PM:

    http://www.countercurrents.org/polya150508.htm

    (It goes without saying that he wasn’t…)

    Typical HP smear tactics and guilt-by-association. Presumably the comment left on his blog is Mehdi Hasans fault too.

  67. Luke Frederick Thompson — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:39 pm  

    Well first of all there are many unrhetorically foolish arguments on here.
    Mass immigration to the mainstream British common public is disturbing and disenfranchising. Undemocratic government policies with no democratic mandate from the Liberal establishment of left wing lunatics are just deliberately changing the identity of this country seemingly with a dictatorship like the oppression of Stalinism. When Nazism was introduced by Hitler in Germany they didn’t have many immigrants,after the war the British nationality act and the Commonwealth migration act was introduced,many people from Africa and Jamaica came to Britain.

    The BNP are a great party and the only nationalist party standing up for Britain they are not fascists they embrace parliamentary democracy and thats a fact everyone can savor.

    Immigration just causes more immigrant separatists like the Muslims for example who live in sheltered communities and fail to interact with the indigenous people of this country like myself. This causes racist far right attacks from combat 18 skinheads adding political correctness also stirs up trouble witch makes lunatics like David Copeland kill innocent people.

    This is just like the example of Nazism in Germany since Mass immigration particularly from Muslim countries.Immigration just causes more stress to a countries sovereignty,we need to limit immigration and forget cheap labour no matter what,just look at the NHS.

  68. Rumbold — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:40 pm  

    David T:

    Well, precisely. You don’t set a trap for someone by telling them you mean for the question to be provocative. I suspect Sunny plans to skewer some racist bigots.

    Wait and see.

  69. comrade — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:46 pm  

    28
    Jai, you have made good points at 28, but we need to explore further as to why racist ideology was first developed, where and why? I would very much like to have better understandinf of Racism. I believe we use the the word Racist very lightly for example discribing somebody black as racist, when racist ideology was based on the whiteness of your skin color.

  70. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:48 pm  

    David T

    Precisely how is this an argument for vilifying Jews escapes me.

    It isnt- its simply to point out your carping at an obscure Turkish film when you ignore Hollywood “anti-semitism” (anti-Arab racism) has been deep and pervasive for decades and its role in fostering the ideaology which underpins hatred of Arabs, which is far far more widespread

  71. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:54 pm  

    Oh, OK then!

    Not everything is about us!

    Typical HP smear tactics and guilt-by-association. Presumably the comment left on his blog is Mehdi Hasans fault too.

    I would never say that a commentator was responsible for comments on his blog – although I do think that a higher standard can plausibly be set for newspaper blogs.

    There are, of course, people who WOULD make the point that a private blog is to blame for the ‘below the line’ comments:

    e.g. Sunny’s coup de grace on the following piece is a quotation from a lunatic in our comments, and then the observation:

    As I said earlier, it’s obvious the sort of paranoia that Harry’s Place is deliberately feeding into.

    The coup de grace!!

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5305#comments

    Mehdi Hasan also has written an article, supposedly responding to the Channel 4 Insider posts, but which instead is devoted to responding to the claims of a couple of lunatics in a HP comments thread who claim that he is an Islamist. No mention of the fact that the article didn’t call him an Islamist, and I and other commenters refuted in detail the allegation that he was an Islamist.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/dissident-voice/2009/07/islamic-extremists-muslim#reader-comments

  72. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:54 pm  

    Shami #63 – Never compare apples and oranges; it doesn’t work at all.

    Every Brit in Bulgaria, most of whom are retirees or semi-retirees, brings enough financial input to pay a Bulgarian’s wages for at least one year. On the basis of observation, I’d guess that about right. Croatia etc., probably the same.

    Whites in Zimbabwe and Algeria did well to flee on the day of independence, if not long before; those dumb enough to believe the honeyed words of the goodthinkful and stay have no-one to thank but their own gullible selves, sad to say. [Read Peter Godwin on Rhodesia/Zimbabwe and check out Wikipedia for the Oran massacres]

    While on Africa, it will be obvious to all that South Africa is sliding down the drain, right?

    Twenty percent or more of the white professionals have already fled and the South Asians – always the canary in the coal mine now that their kith and kin have experienced the joys of Black African rule in East Africa – are acquiring Australian citizenship as fast as they can.

  73. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 8:57 pm  

    Luke Fredrick Thompson

    Immigration just causes more immigrant separatists like the Muslims for example who live in sheltered communities

    Presumably youve never heard of “white flight”

    and fail to interact with the indigenous people of this country like myself.

    Whats stopping you interacting with them?

    This causes racist far right attacks from combat 18 skinheads

    Yes thats true- Combat 18 attacking ethnic minorities because they dont interact with the “indigenous” people more. They are actually the armed wing of the Lib Dems and are furious that for example more Muslims dont have white girlfriends.

    adding political correctness also stirs up trouble

    Surely the phrase “its political correctness gone mad” was never more apt

    witch makes lunatics like David Copeland kill innocent people

    I knew it. It was Harry Potter’s fault all the time!
    Or Grotbags off the Emu show.

  74. douglas clark — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:11 pm  

    Sunny,

    I suspect most North American Indian tribes would say its’ a tad worse than that.

  75. inders — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:12 pm  

    I didn’t read all of those comments.

    Can someone summarise for me and tell me if anybody said anything new or interesting ?

  76. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:13 pm  

    David T

    Mehdi Hasan also has written an article, supposedly responding to the Channel 4 Insider posts, but which instead is devoted to responding to the claims of a couple of lunatics in a HP comments thread who claim that he is an Islamist. No mention of the fact that the article didn’t call him an Islamist, and I and other commenters refuted in detail the allegation that he was an Islamist.

    Then what was the point of the HP “expose” other than to yet again try and get another critic of Israel/Muslim the sack from their job? Well?

    And dont say “we think its a disgrace the editor of the New Statesman should say such things about non-Muslims” as the media left and right is replete with people who have said far worse about Muslims, some of whom your blog promote or have promoted.

  77. Rajesh — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:16 pm  

    I don’t think do. There was certainly more casual racism when I was growing up in the 70′s than there is now and clearly there’s more immigration now than before.
    I’d generally argue that a large cause of racism is ignorance. I’ve spent enought time arguing with some Indians who’ve at most spent a few weeks in the US pontificating is a horribly racist manner about african americans to know that.

    However, I also agree with Soso that the immigrants of today do not have to commit to their new country as old immigrants used to have to. I grew up in Scotland in the late 70s & 80′s. There was a small Indian community we spent time with but all our culture etc was British.
    Nowadays any one who comes here can ,via satellite TV,skype ,the Internet etc not have to interact with British culture at all. Personally I think this is great but it definetely reduces the drive to integrate into a British identity.

  78. anobody — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:17 pm  

    Luke Federick Thompson:

    Immigration just causes more immigrant separatists like the Muslims for example who live in sheltered communities and fail to interact with the indigenous people of this country like myself.

    I grew up, in the north, smack bang in the middle of one of these ‘sheltered communities’ as you put it. Can I ask you Luke, do you make efforts to interact with the immigrants? Or did you just pick up and leave to create this separatist haven for these Muslims?

    I can assure you most of us just wanted to get on with our lives, and attain our secular salvation. I think you’ll find alot of these Muslims have real issues and problems like yourself, over housing, education, healthcare provision, and unemployment. I don’t know any Muslim, who has signed up for benefit in the name of Allah (astagfirullah). I know there are probably thoughts running through your BNP mind that is telling you it is written in the Quran to claim benefit, but let me assure you it doesn’t.

  79. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:19 pm  

    A liberal policy on immigration is simply abused in a world of cheap travel; it’s stunning to see Nigerian club touts in Osaka and hear of Tamil gangs in Canada.

    The real world is a very nasty place:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1202009/Bloody-siege-Calais-The-violent-new-breed-migrants-let-stop-coming-Britain.html

    Answers to Postman Pat at the Home Office

  80. ali — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:24 pm  

    Typical HP smear tactics and guilt-by-association. Presumably the comment left on his blog is Mehdi Hasans fault too.

    David T

    I would never say that a commentator was responsible for comments on his blog – although I do think that a higher standard can plausibly be set for newspaper blogs.

    There are, of course, people who WOULD make the point that a private blog is to blame for the ‘below the line’ comments:

    e.g. Sunny’s coup de grace on the following piece is a quotation from a lunatic in our comments, and then the observation:

    As I said earlier, it’s obvious the sort of paranoia that Harry’s Place is deliberately feeding into.

    Its not even as if Gideon Polya’s post said anything incriminating that might flag it up. It simply said “very sensible article”. Posts on HP on the other hand explicitly say appalling things about Muslims and are left unmoderated. You seem to be implying there is some onus on Mehdi Hasan to go through all the posters and find out about their background.

    If not what was the point of your “trivia” mentioning Gideon Polya? Other than to smear Mehdi Hasan ? Well?

  81. Brownie — on 29th July, 2009 at 9:59 pm  

    ali,

    Your observations seem to me a little confused. Surely you either think the comments define the blog or you don’t? You seem to want to have it that way when it comes to HP, but when it’s pointed out that other blogs contain pish for comments you call that a smear. Double standard, no?

    I’ll lay my cards on the table: if you run a blog with a very light moderation policy, you can expect to get more than your fair share of loons. It’s simple maths. I still prefer blogs like this but I absolutely reject the notion that the comments should frame the way we feel about the editorial content and editors. That strikes me as totally unfair.

    Do you agree?

  82. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 10:23 pm  

    There are people on this thread, last time I looked, who have popped in to say “Vote BNP”

    !!

  83. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 10:38 pm  

    It’s certainly reassuring to know that David T in person is keeping a sharp eye on us all to make sure that none of us are seduced by the likes of Stu into sympathising with those awful knuckle-draggers over at the BNP!

    Better still, Sadiq Khan is keeping an eye on things on the politico-theological front:

    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/107304/Government-plans-new-counter-terrorism-strategies

    Spiffing!

  84. Marcus — on 29th July, 2009 at 10:38 pm  

    Immigration no

    Wrong kind of immigration yes!

    The vast majority of immigrants are low class, uneducated and quite possibly criminals.

    I get p*ss*d off reading about acid attacks, honour killings, cannabis factories etc.

    These crimes are for the most part a result of our open door policy to immigration. We need to start setting really high standards. If the guy from Pakistan was a professor looking for a cure for cancer I would have respect. If he is a bigamist selling alcohol to under-age kids (or worse in the past glue sniffing kits), I will have a bad opinion.

    Racism is an outdated catch all argument to supress debate.

  85. Brownie — on 29th July, 2009 at 10:40 pm  

    Oh, and ali,

    Hasan’s self-styled ‘repsonse’ to the HP posts enjoys the title:

    “Who are you calling an Islamist?”

    “Who” indeed. Certainly not any of the wrtiers, including ‘C4 Insider’, who in the second of the posts writes:

    Hasan is not an Islamist. Indeed, he has clearly written and spoken of his opposition to the idea of an “Islamic State” as well as criticising Wahhabi and Takfiri groups.

    The answer to Hasna’s question is, of course, “some bloke in the comments box at HP”.

    Job done? Apparently so.

  86. Marcus — on 29th July, 2009 at 10:55 pm  

    One other thing, why exactly are we sending troops to Afghanistan to stop terrorist attacks on Britain.

    At the same time Calais is full of Afghans and Iraqis trying to get into Britain. Does the British government have a strategy in all this? Well no!

    If we invaded Afghanistan to stop terrorism, you could probably arrive at a conclusion that terrorists live there. So it doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to realise that if many Afghans are flocking to Britain, there just might be a few terrorists amongst them. Do we intern them as they enter the country? No actually they get given hand outs and free health care.

    Of course everyone know the war is a bunch of Sh”t. The bombings in London did not come from the Taliban, they came from British Muslims. The training camps were based in the lake district not Afghanistan

    Maybe we should bomb Windermere instead of helmund.

    Or perhaps get are heads out of the sand.

  87. David T — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:01 pm  

    In fact, there are three people on this thread urging support for the BNP. One of them even says:

    I don’t think all BNP supporters are racist.

    Anyhow…

    Yes, it’s a provocative question. There is a reasoning behind it. I’ll come to that soon.

    When are we going to hear this ‘reasoning’

    ?

    PS: The Marcus above is not Marcus from HP.

  88. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:09 pm  

    Marcus has it right!

    The destruction of terrorist bases in Windermere, Ambleside, Coniston, Grasmere and Wasdale Head must be put before Bollocks Bob at the Ministry of Not Enough Helicopters and Bananaman Millipide and One-Eye McBroon will assure the sheeple that the annihilation of every sheep-pen in the Lake District is our only hope of keeping the dancing slags of London safe!

    Give the man a safe Labour seat now!

  89. Leon — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:15 pm  

    Oh man let this not be yet another bloody HP thread!

  90. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:18 pm  

    David T is like a bloody Labrador puppy with a carpet slipper once he gets onto the subject of the BNP and apologists for the BNP and knuckle-draggers with shaven heads, innie?

    It is possible to be a BNP supporter without being a racist. However, it is probable that most – not necessarily all – BNP supporters are race realists.

    A racist dislikes people based on their skin colour, right?

    A race realist will calmly observe that Afro-Caribbeans seem very keen on grabbing far more than their fair share of bunk space in the prison systems in Britain, France, Holland …

    Is this clear, David T ?

    PS The David T who is posting on here may or may not be the David T who posts elsewhere. Who could be sure?

  91. Boyo — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:18 pm  

    moving on eh?

    Does immigration cause racism?

    Not necessarily, although it’s hard to think of a country where it hasn’t at some stage.

    It’s a different question though whether people specifically fitting in or not have led to the BNP. The NF prosper in France with the opposite of multi culti policies for eg, yet in other countries these parties aren’t as strong.

    Yet mass immigration from people from a different culture into another culture is plainly playing with fire – history offers few examples where there hasn’t been trouble of some kind. Surely the blackshirts in Brick Lane, for example, were at least as shocking as the BNP today?

  92. Boyo — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:20 pm  

    People are essentially tribal. no country is free of racism or prejudice, after all

  93. Edna Welthorpe — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:28 pm  

    Exciting things are happening on the anti-racism front in this land of ours:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5934137/Asian-man-who-called-policemen-white-redneck-hooligans-is-guilty-of-racism.html

    Note the detail about the ‘victim surcharge’ if you please!

  94. Sunny — on 29th July, 2009 at 11:30 pm  

    I just asked a question Leon. It’s your newly found friends from HP that are jumping all over the thread trying to find out what’s going on inside my head.

  95. Ed Gerstner — on 30th July, 2009 at 1:11 am  

    Wowie zowie. What an evening of debate this has been.

    It is possible to be a BNP supporter without being a racist.

    Edna, I’ve gotta say that it’s rather clear from you and your cohorts comments that it really isn’t. This is truly the sort of thing that never ceases to give me succour in the battle for hearts and minds between fascists and the rest of the political world. We just need to wind you guys up and let the electorate see you for who you really are. Kinda takes the fun out of it really. But as my father says, “You can’t have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.”

    People are essentially tribal. No country is free of racism or prejudice, after all.

    Boyo, I think you pretty much nail it. Racism is just an unsubtle variant of extreme tribalism. Take away the obvious differences of race and people will still find some way of delineating ‘us’ from ‘them’. And the distinction will be no more or less bogus, nor less heartfelt.

    This is not defeatism. Boneheaded stupidity should always be opposed wherever it rears it boney head. And this is how we move ahead (I hope). But it will always be with us, I fear.

  96. damon — on 30th July, 2009 at 3:53 am  

    To the original question I say yes it does.

    And I just mean that it does in reality, the way things work in Britain, where poor ”ghetto communities” form because of the way our very unequal society works.

    For those people at the top of the thread who said it doesn’t, or that it only manifests itself in people who are already ”predisposed towards racism” (it was Jai), I’d say that is oversimplifing.

    Some people might have negative feelings towards continued immigration from poorer countries because they feel that it has brought issues of poverty into Britain that didn’t exist in the same way before.

    People who live in areas of deprivation with difficult social issues, that also have a high rate of both present day immigrants, and the desendents of earlier waves of immigration, may well come to the conclusion that these social ills are an almost nevitable spin off of immigration.

    So we have an article like this from The Times in 2006 which says that: ”Spread of race ghettos fuels gang warfare”.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article665029.ece

    Now whether that is a stupid alarmist article we could debate here for days. Maybe it is. But do we expect everyone to have a Polly Toynbee like depth of understanding and analysis about why these things come about? It might be good if we did, but most people don’t.
    Here’s a youtube of young people talking about some of the issues they face in London.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsfS3VdBoP4&feature=related
    I have mentioned on PP before that in 2007, 9 out of the 27 teenagers murdered in knife and gun crime in London, were of Congolese origin. Some came to Britain as young children and soon ended up in the sink estates that have all kinds of social problems.

    AJ Nakasila came to Britain as a young boy from Congo.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/i4i+aj+nakasila+biography/1394447

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyCOusMxGGo

    So it’s not immigration that’s the issue, but the way our society works. Where working for low wages seems almost like a waste of time. I’m working for a large industrial laundry at the moment. The greater majority of the workforce are (or were) immigrants. It’s an unpleasant working enviroment.

    Drivers of London’s black taxis have had a (perhaps unfair) reputation amongst some kinds of people, for often holding less than enlightened views, and being some of the most typical examples of people who left the parts of inner London and the East End where they grew up, and moved out to suburbs like Chingford and points east (white flight).

    If they are somewhat ”backward” in their thinking about modern London, it’s not necessarly just that they have been put up to it by racists and the media.
    I’m opposed to any form of racism and prejudice, but even I’m challenged when walking in Tower Hamlets in a place like Shadwell.
    I was there just a few hours ago, by the DLR station.

    What is this typical London taxi driver to think of Shadwell now? And see the former pub in a back street ….still with a big brewery sign and lettering painted on the upper floor walls), but has closed and has reopened as some fast food joint (with cheap neon signs declaring halal this and that, just screwed onto the brickwork above the doorway).

    I’d recommend a visit. It’s right by Cable Street.

    I got called a racist on another website for raising issues like this. Which to me shows how almost impossible it is to have an open discussion on the subject. Anti-racists are in the right, but their spinning and refusal to acknowledge that not everything in reality fits their idealogy, harms the cause of anti-racism IMO.

    Detroit sounds a bit sad in many ways, and it’s not to do with immigration.
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071015/METRO/710150369/1409

    But I know the reasons for what happened in Detroit are very complex. Whole parts of the city were just abandoned.
    Whites and Blacks give different percentages to the issue of wanting to live in racially mixed neighbourhoods.

  97. Cauldron — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:23 am  

    Racism is as old as the hills, and just as universal. It goes back to the time when the main unit of society was the band – usually a group of a dozen or so individuals. Like other extreme instincts from that era – the instinct to kill, steal – it does little good in a society that over millennia has grown more prosperous by becoming more complex and more inter-dependent.

    So the instinct to racism is always there. I think there are 2 rather more subtle questions to discuss:

    (1) What triggers an UPSURGE in racism and whether the policies that provoke a racist reaction are themselves desirable.

    (2) We need to distinguish between hard-core ideological bigots – people who hate people of different skin colour for the sake of it – and people who are not obsessed by race but are otherwise provoked into voting for race-obsessed parties.

    To my mind issues of the speed of societal change (not just immigration numbers; things like the speed of technological change matter too), plus perceptions of unfairness are the key triggers.

    My key gripe with this site is its cheerleading for the kind of naive, un-nuanced, do-goodery sloganeering of the type espoused by student lefties in the 1980s, subsequently translated into policy post 1997, that has led to a needless upsurge in racism.

    A few lefties in different ways have understood this problem – Nick Lowles for sure, Sunny occasionally (when he questions the whole multi-culti thing) and, for all his other faults, Trevor Phillips. But a disappointingly large plurality on the Left will not acknowledge that, on balance, Left wing-policies have been utterly counterproductive and harmful to the majority of ethnic immigrants who came here in the 60s and 70s with the intention of working hard, making better lives for their families and being respectful to the culture of their host society.

  98. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:37 am  

    If you have come this far, turn back and click on the links Damon offers at #96.

    The first is a ‘Times’ piece about gang crime written by someone with the splendidly evocative name of Shiv Malik; who better to write about knife crime?

    In these vibrant and enriched times, according to the aforesaid Shiv Malik, London is blessed with discrete gangs made up of Bengalis, Somalis, Pakistanis, Afro-Caribbeans, Turks, Moroccans and Algerians. And that’s just in one part of London!

    Whether London is ahead of Toronto or lagging behind is open to question, but now that mass-immigration-enthusiast Postman Pat is in the Home Office we can be sure London can be confident of being among world leaders in the diversity and violence of its gangs.

    To many PP readers the news that out of 27 teens fatally stabbed and shot in 2007 a breathtaking 9 – an impressive 33% – were Congolese or of Congolese origin will be of interest. Until fairly recently the Congolese were content to enrich Belgium and France. Whatever attracted them to bring themselves, with their knives and guns, England?

    This impressive and surprising statistic sounds like the startling news that Somalis in Finland are committing well over ten times their fair share of violent crimes or that Muslims in Britain occupy three times their fair allocation of prison bunk space.

    Still, Muslims in La Belle France occupy well over half the bunk space in the French prison system, so Muslims in Britain still have some way to go!

    Readers will particularly enjoy the [true?] story of the hapless fellow who had a knife put to his throat to accompany the demand that he convert to Islam. Since this is how the ancestors of the Pomaks of Bulgaria embraced the Religion of Peace, it can be observed with satisfaction that some traditions, at least, are unchanging.

    All goodthinkful people are required to belief two essential thigs;

    -1- Mass Third World immigration is wonderful. The more, and the more diverse, the better!

    -2- We will all be as happy as clams in a multiracial, multiculti Britain.

    Unhappily, not all Brits have got the message yet:

    http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2009/07/eight_out_of_10.php

  99. Jamesw — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:54 am  

    Don – you ask me “When, in your opinion, did immigrants first arrive in this country?”

    Answer: to all intents and purposes, the numbers of blacks/browns (ie non white Europeans) were negligible before the 1950s. Yes, there were a few but all but a tiny number of indigenous British people would be aware of their presence. That we Britons were aware of their existence in our former colonies and other exotic places, but we were not offended by that knowledge because they were securely confined to their own country. It was only when they started to invade our country, our beautiful land, that we Brits started to resent their presence; at that point (1960s onward) the Hidden Hand of political correctness dusted down the old Communist term of “racism”, and – well, the rest is history. I read today that dog fights in the UK are organised soley by Asians – goes along with all their other crimes – Thuggee, heroin importing, chip pan fires, Suttee, the grooming of underage white girls, suicide bombings, being at large with a brown face and, smelly (and the Negro crimes of mugging, raping, drug taking).

    So there.

    didn’t And, assuming you have a historical period in mind, when did racism arise? I think we need detail.

  100. Jamesw — on 30th July, 2009 at 8:00 am  

    PS – for any darkies of low IQ reading this posting, the section

    “didn’t And, assuming you have a historical period in mind, when did racism arise? I think we need detail.”

    should not have been there. Apologies for the copy/paste typo!

  101. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 8:02 am  

    Come on Sunny! Don’t bottle it.

    “Yes, it’s a provocative question. There is a reasoning behind it. I’ll come to that soon.”

    How soon is now?

    PS Edna – you’re WJ Phillips who used to post at HP aren’t you?

  102. Ravi Naik — on 30th July, 2009 at 8:40 am  

    All goodthinkful people are required to belief two essential thigs

    You are just parroting the BNP, and quite frankly the BNP narrative is boring. You are just focusing on immigrant crime, and nobody disputes that some immigrants commit crimes. But what about the success stories, are they none?

    Let me ask you a simple question and I expect an answer: Are the majority of non-whites in Britain criminals? And if not, why is the majority of your posts and American Renaissance’s for that matter, focus only on criminal stories as if it was only the case?

    London is as multicultural and multiracial as it can be. Not sure why the BNP doesn’t fare well here among the “indigenous”, perhaps you can explain? Aren’t people supposed to be fed up? Please check American Renaissance for an answer… I am sure there is an answer somewhere.

    And by the way, Jai is right: your post #13 is disgusting to say the least. I understand you are used to write in supremacist blogs where such odious and hateful language is the norm, but this is a civilised blog, so I suggest you watch your language.

  103. Ravi Naik — on 30th July, 2009 at 9:01 am  

    should not have been there. Apologies for the copy/paste typo!

    Don’t apologise, it was quite frankly the best part of your comment.

  104. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 9:06 am  

    WJ Phillips used to be very keen on explaining that he was a “race realist” as well.

  105. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:01 am  

    Ravi Naik [et al]:

    No doubt about it, is there? The clear majority of non-whites in Britain are not criminals.

    In fact, in Britain the Hindus and Chinese are statistically under-represented in the criminal classes, just as Japanese-Americans are in the U.S.A.

    This issue is not one of skin colour. See above.

    Nor is it one of confessional affiliation; the Sufis are no more bother or annoyance than the Hindus or the Parsees* or the Ahmadiyya heretics.

    Nor is it one of integration. Orthodox Jews have no desire to integrate or even socialise with anyone other than other Orthodox Jews. There aren’t many of THEM, so that’s no problem. If they were more numerous, their non-integration would be a different story.

    Are there success stories? Yes, there are. Some may even have benefitted ordinary British people to some extent, too. But the probability is that a successful Gujerati would have been a success in Gujerat or in Chungking Mansions in Hong Kong.

    The issues are:

    -1- National identity. Nobody assumes Britain should be all-white or resemble the imaginary land dreamed up the the English Tourist Board, full of oast houses, thatched cottages and morris dancers but Britain has, or ought to have, a cultural identity as distinct as that of Japan or Rajasthan or Greece, not the Sesame Street Kumbaya-singing mish-mash non-identity of Brixton Market or an International Airport transit lounge.

    Mature societies with an established cultural identity simply CANNOT have the sort of open door immigration policy which sixty years of asleep-at-the-wheel politicians have inflicted on Britain. Horrifically, it is now happening in Ireland.

    It will be remembered that in the 1960s Japanese textile manufacturers loudly demanded an influx of long-term foreign ‘trainees’ but were firmly rebuffed by a bureaucracy and a political class which – for all its faults – had their nation’s true long-term interests at heart, not merely the short-term interests of the Japanese capitalist class. Fewer than 4,000 foreigners become Japanese citizens in a year and that’s probably about right.

    -2- Overcrowding of an already overcrowded place which had a more-or-less-right population density in, say, 1955. See Japan [above.]

    -3- Social behaviour. The links provided by Damon at #96 are the briefest glimpse of the hell mass Third World immigration has inflicted on the British people.

    NEW READERS: Scoot back to #13 and click on the link provided to read one ungoodthinkful person’s opinion of the joys multiculturalism has inflicted on Canada.

    * It is noteworthy that the first ‘Asian’ MPs in Britain were Parsees and were not dependent on an ethnic vote to get elected.

  106. Kismet Hardy — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:08 am  

    I wonder if the ‘britain for whites’ brigade truly believe that if all the foreigners and spawn of foreigners truly buggered off that there’ll be peace and harmony in the streets? Because I’ve been to sherburn-in-elmet nr Leeds and there’s only white people there and they beat the shit out of each other every friday night

  107. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:10 am  

    To David T at #101

    Wrong, guv! I have never posted as W J Phillips on HP or anywhere else, so ‘elp me Gawd!

    Is there a W J Phillips style book somewhere?

  108. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:16 am  

    Kismet Hardy can always be counted on to tell us something new!

    Few of us even knew of the very existance of the very arcadian-sounding Sherburn-in-Elmet.

    Are the Sherburnians likely to start blowing themselves, and others, to bits because they’re displeased with aspects of foreign policy?

    We deserve to be told!

  109. damon — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:25 am  

    I hope people might see that there is a difference in the views of Edna Welthorpe and myself.
    I do not support ‘her’ conclusions.

    This though is where things get difficult, as I’m sure that some people might not see a difference. I know that from bitter experience on another strongly anti-racist blog forum.

    To highlight some of the negatives as I have done, can be seen as giving succor to racists. And maybe it’s the case that you can’t have an open and frank debate about something like this on such a forum.

    I know for example (because I heard him say it on the radio) that Dotun Adebayo was highly unimpressed with this Dispatches documentary.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html

    Darcus Howe was heavilly criticised some years ago for taking part in a similar documentary.

    And I can see why such criticism took place. Perhaps documentaries are not the place to air such issues.

    I like Sorious Samura, but I think his making of this documentary might have been the wrong thing to do.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16UVKLEZ4vk
    And maybe public internet forums are not the place to have a discussion like this.
    Especially when there are supporters of segregation and race hate about.

    American Renaissance offers no way foreward. However interesting and well researched some of it’s stories are, and whatever truth or how much they may be based on facts, they end up as just another hate site.

    And a critisism of Theodore Dalrymple I would have (who Edna keeps recommending) is that having looked at his Telegraph blog, he has a tendency to set up an issue like we have here, and then just abandon it it the commentators who are no different to those you get on the BNP website.
    If he was responsible he’d come back and intervene in the comments and pull up and dissociate himself from the worst of the racist comments.

    I am frustrated that it’s impossible to have the discussion properly (anywhere). Because it’s so polarised, and the subject just goes round and round without getting anywhere, (and Lee Jasper and Jesse Jackson types take center stage).

    On sunday evening Rupa Huq (sister of Konnie) was a guest on the Eddie Nestor radio programme on BBC London.
    I looked up her blog and saw that she mentions Pickled Politics.

    At one point in the show a caller rang in and started going on about a Mail on Sunday story about asylum seekers in Calais. (This one):
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1202009/Bloody-siege-Calais-The-violent-new-breed-migrants-let-stop-coming-Britain.html

    Edna has mentioned that Mail on Sunday piece, and so have I (without coming to the same conclusion I hope), and I thought that Rupa Huq just sweeps the whole issue under the carpet. (But it’s true that the woman caller to the show was ranting about it in a Daily Mail fashion)

    Rupa Huq just says: ”thought that the old “wogs start at Calais” saying was long dead and buried”

    See her entry: ”A face for radio”.
    http://rupahuq.wordpress.com/

    Untill what’s going on in Calais can be discussed properly (and the implications that flow from it) then I think not much progress will be made in a discussion like this.
    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4RNTN_enGB336GB337&q=croydon+asylum+seekers+children++council+care&meta=

  110. Kismet Hardy — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:31 am  

    Edna: “Are the Sherburnians likely to start blowing themselves”

    I don’t doubt it for it a second. Most of the ones I met are massive cocks :-)

  111. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:05 am  

    Damon -

    In brief:

    It is VERY wicked of anyone, even a goodthinkful person, to mention black gang rape [or Algerian / Moroccan gang rape in France or Somali gang rape in Sweden and Norway and Finland] because there are – as you say – “supporters of race hate and segregation about” and THOSE dreadful people might even try to make capital out of such unpleasant facts [as the unspeakable people at the National Front website do, in great detail.]

    Someone who mentioned the sharp division between UAF and HnH over the issue of you-know-who grooming underage white girls in Keighley on the ‘Socialist Unity’ site was soon taken to task very sharply indeed and probably summarily sentenced to thought reform and dragged off to some S.U. gulag to hew the nouns out of the unyielding earth, grind the verbs and polish the adjectives.

    One is reminded of the Victorian and Edwardian etiquette that certain things must never, ever be discussed in front of the servants!

    HP and PP and AmRen are discussion sites. They are not political manifestoes or ‘The British Road to Socialism’

    On the jolly-camp-at-Calais issue to which a link is provided at #109 above, it is hardly surprising that Rupa Huq ducked the issue with a neat and timely quip; the fact that knife-wielding Afghans and Eritreans are heading our way is one which goodthinkful people would prefer not to to have discussed because it is unhelpful and hurtful and alarmist and certainly the sort of irresponsible scaremongering which could be harmful to community cohesion as well as being indicative of bigoted islamophobic and racist xenophobia, possibly leading to – gasp – hate speech.

  112. Jai — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:09 am  

    Britain has, or ought to have, a cultural identity as distinct as that of Japan or Rajasthan or Greece

    a) Impossible, considering the extent to which Britain is involved with globalisation in both international trade and culture, along with its diminished place as a global (previous) superpower and its extremely strong ties with the United States. If anything, the dominant external cultural influence on British society is American, especially via the media. (The BNP, of course, are explicitly “hostile to American cultural imperialism”, as stated in their 2005 General Election manifesto).

    b) Modern-day Japanese people do not exactly go around wearing kimonos all the type, with the descendents of samurai carrying katanas in their daily lives like Uma Thurman in “Kill Bill”. And in terms of Japanese popular culture, particularly amongst the young, the American influence is absolutely huge.

    c) Rajasthan’s culture is primarily a combination of the legacy of Rajputs, the Mughals, and local “folk” groups from multiple religious backgrounds. But even then, the average modern-day kshatriya who can trace his ancestry to the armies affiliated to one of the royal clans is not exactly riding around the urban streets of Jaipur and Jodhpur on horseback, armour glistening in the sunshine, while brightly-turbaned folk musicians leading their camels sing of the latest battle with the Mughals and join the caravanserai on the silk trade route through the desert.

    d) Greeks have an very long history with multiple internal & external influences based on the local culture, their Mediterranean neighbours, and (more recently) the Ottomans.

    e) And if you think this is a relatively recent development, with little/no bilateral cultural exchanges between — for example — both the Romans and the Greeks and the subcontinent, then you need to brush up on your knowledge of ancient history. Much of the most advanced and heavily populated parts of the world has been far more interconnected than Britain was until the start of the colonial period a couple of centuries ago (except for the Roman interlude, and even then it took a thousand years to recover afterwards), a long time before Britain and the rest of northern Europe decided to join the “global community”. Unless you think the fact that all the Indian alphabets along with the Hebrew, Arabic and Latin alphabets are all originally derived from the Phoenician script is a huge conspiracy.

  113. Jai — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:10 am  

    kimonos all the type

    “time”, not “type”.

  114. Leon — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:12 am  

    I just asked a question Leon. It’s your newly found friends from HP that are jumping all over the thread trying to find out what’s going on inside my head.

    LOL @ ‘newly found friends’! :D

    Seriously though are you surprised? You’re well known for sounding out people before revealing your thinking (usually that’s no bad thing), but lately you’re hell bent on boring us all to death with this blog war against HP…when did PP become ‘HP Watch’?

  115. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:44 am  

    “Is there a W J Phillips style book somewhere?”

    He wrote rather well – but yes, you’re not him.

  116. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:10 pm  

    Leon – “Seriously though are you surprised? You’re well known for sounding out people before revealing your thinking (usually that’s no bad thing), but lately you’re hell bent on boring us all to death with this blog war against HP…when did PP become ‘HP Watch’?”

    The likes of us have to keep an eye on such things!

    PP isn’t HP Watch but where is the issue with highlighting when certain outlets and blogs are over blowing issues?

    When you have to live with the fall out from the hysteria and continually have to answer for being Muslim because of this style of writing and reporting then you’ll know what its like and why people get upset.

  117. bananabrain — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:11 pm  

    Nor is it one of integration. Orthodox Jews have no desire to integrate or even socialise with anyone other than other Orthodox Jews.

    er…. i sort of am one, so i can tell you that is bollocks. any orthodox jew with a job or who went to university (which is pretty much all of us) integrates with and socialises with non-jews.

    There aren’t many of THEM, so that’s no problem. If they were more numerous, their non-integration would be a different story.

    perhaps you are confusing observant jews with the ultra-orthodox? it’s easily done if you don’t know what you’re talking about, or think all jews have beards, black hats and sidelocks. well, they don’t particularly want to integrate or socialise with me either, but that’s a whole ‘nother issue. it’s a bigger problem in israel where there *are* many of them – and the problem is very distinctly an intra-jewish problem as well.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  118. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:20 pm  

    Greece, like her neighbours, was under the Ottoman yoke for centuries but is distinctively Greece, not an International Airport transit lounge.

    Jai is a weeny bit wrong about Japan, a country I suspect I know rather better at first-hand than he does.

    Yet he’s partly right, too.

    The ‘posh’ written language is a limited menu of Chinese characters; the 1,945 characters of ‘The Standard Kanji for Common Use’ of 1981 was, however, habitually exceeded by a determined-to-show-off writer like Mishima.

    The aristocracy seems to have been of Korean origin, if we go by the archaeological evidence at Sakai and elsewhere.

    The influence of the first period of Euro-Japanese relations is now a distant memory [but the Jesuit bell from the Nanbanji is still to be seen, by appointment, in Kyoto] and the late Tokugawa and early Meiji period is the romanticised stuff of TV commercials, yet is all too easy to assume – not least from movies such as ‘Acid Rain’* – that post-1945 superficial semi-Americanization is anything more than that.

    A VIGNETTE:
    It is a still a taboo to cross the threshold into a house while whistling. Such an act invites the restless spirits of the whole neighbourhood to cross the threshold, too, and salt must – quickly – be scattered in the four corners of the house to avert so disagreeable a consequence by oliging the spirits to flee.

    This, I might add, was in a household in which the head of the house had unswervingly voted for Communist candidates from the 1940s onwards.

    * A dumb and lame story with tolerable acting but quite exquisite and delicate camerawork which transformed Osaka into a nightmarish vision worthy of Hogarth or Grosch.

  119. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:44 pm  

    ERRATUM:
    The artist referred to is George Grosz and the 1989 Ridley Scott film is called ‘Black Rain,’ not to be confused with ‘Kuroi Ame’ [Black Rain] made by Imamura Shohei in the same year.
    MEA CULPA

  120. Brownie — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:47 pm  

    not the Sesame Street Kumbaya-singing mish-mash non-identity of Brixton Market or an International Airport transit lounge.

    You know where Stow-on-the-Wold is, right? And the last time I checked Southwold hadn’t fallen into the sea and, yes, there was honey still for tea.

  121. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:48 pm  

    Bananabrain – “perhaps you are confusing observant jews with the ultra-orthodox? it’s easily done if you don’t know what you’re talking about, or think all jews have beards, black hats and sidelocks. well, they don’t particularly want to integrate or socialise with me either, but that’s a whole ‘nother issue. it’s a bigger problem in israel where there *are* many of them – and the problem is very distinctly an intra-jewish problem as well.”

    That may possibly be anti-semitism and there may be an article on the other blog soon!

    I think you are being a tad unfair to the ultra-orthodox. They will talk to people but they won’t mix and they won’t attend mixed events. The fact they don’t like you is a religious issue.

    In Israel part of their problem with people is they want strict adherence to Jewish Law as per their interpretation which isn’t always conducive to the running of the state and some of them don’t even accept the state.

  122. MaidMarian — on 30th July, 2009 at 12:52 pm  

    Edna Welthorpe – Greece! you really do like countries that backed Milosevic don’t you?

    Greece is without question has some of the most vile jingoism on display anywhere in the world. An utterly repellant country.

    As the riots earlier this year amply demonstrate, Greece is a society with an entrenched ruling class that has very little legitimacy or authority. It is a country where the middle class – many of whom have travelled abroad for work and education, something I rather suspect you disapprove of – feel utterly alienated from their elites, and distrust the state.

    Greece, crikey!

  123. bananabrain — on 30th July, 2009 at 1:53 pm  

    imran,

    you missed the word “particularly”. look, i am perhaps closer to this than you realise, as the leadership of the iraqi community is generally ultra-orthodox, so actually, it’s more complicated than this. there are plenty of haredim (ultra-orthodox) and other black-hatters that i am proud to call my friends, both male and female and plenty more that i think are total arses. the issue is that people are people and that is why you are wrong when you say:

    the fact they don’t like you is a religious issue.

    in fact, it isn’t. at least, not simply so. it is based upon “hashkafa” (“worldview”/”philosophy”) which may or may not have religious undertones (more often than not) but is not religiously *mandated*, which is what i regard as religious rather than, say, cultural. people can be chauvinistic, small-minded and parochial in outlook, but i will not concede that this is a religious position because as far as i am aware the vast majority of jews do not consider it so, including the mainstream orthodox.

    in terms of the problem itself, it is a pretty major problem when a large segment of your population refuses to pay tax, serve in the army or civil service, doesn’t wish to work and has on average about 10 kids per family – AND insists on treating everyone else like crap and elects corrupt political parties to perpetuate this situation, that i call a problem. it’s not anti-religious to point it out, either, it’s part of the structural problems that are endemic to israel’s political system. i don’t feel that i owe these people a living (i had one guy at my door not two days ago begging for money for a wedding for one of his 15 kids in jerusalem) nor do most non-haredi israelis. frankly, these people need to come to better terms with modernity than they have. i’m not saying they should give up entirely, but this whole thing is leading to too much sinat hinam (causeless hatred).

    oh – and that is before eminent rabbis get done for money-laundering, as is happening currently in new jersey. what a hillul haShem (desecration of the Divine Name). these people are supposed to be spiritual leaders, for feck’s sake.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  124. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 1:56 pm  

    WE ARE WANDERING OFF TOPIC, NOT THAT SUCH A DEVELOPMENT IN UNUSUAL IN PP

    Being accused of being a Hellophile is a new and startling experience but I suppose Byron would have been pleased. We Zionazis certainly have to stand firm on many fronts, that’s for sure!

    Is Maid Marian in favour of expelling Greece from the European Union?

    A tear for Greece, a blush for the Greeks?

    Did you know that ‘going Greek’ is a vulgar Americanism for anal sex?

  125. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 2:02 pm  

    Bananabrain -

    Are the Ultra-Orthodox people to whom you refer the mainstay of the SHAS political party or is my ‘knowledge’ purely fragmentary and cartoonish?

    Do you have an opinion about the rabbis – allegedly and indirectly – dealing in kidneys? Isn’t that a really dreadful taboo?

  126. anobody — on 30th July, 2009 at 2:46 pm  

    David T:

    In fact, there are three people on this thread urging support for the BNP. One of them even says:

    I don’t think all BNP supporters are racist.

    I don’t think all BNP supporters are racist, but that does not mean I am urging support for the BNP.

    Like I don’t think all Likud supporters are zionists, but that does not mean I urge support for Likud.

    Simple.

  127. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 3:14 pm  

    All Likud supporters are Zionists – in fact pretty much all Israeli parties, apart from the extreme Left and Arab ones are Zionist.

    I mean, the notion of dismantling the State of Israel isn’t likely to be much of a vote winner with the majority of the population of that state, is it?

    Yes, I think that there may be some BNP supporters who aren’t racist: but merely stupid. So stupid, that they hadn’t noticed that the whole POINT of the BNP is that it is a racist party.

  128. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

    DaveT – “All Likud supporters are Zionists – in fact pretty much all Israeli parties, apart from the extreme Left and Arab ones are Zionist.”

    Deft change to Israeli Parties! All Israeli parties are zionist but the degrees vary. Likud may well be an expansionist zionist party whereas others may want a Jewish state within ’67 borders. Broadly speaking you could say they all support a Jewish state.

    However does the same apply to the extreme right wing parties in Europe? Most dislike immigrants and have pretty similar gripes.

    “I mean, the notion of dismantling the State of Israel isn’t likely to be much of a vote winner with the majority of the population of that state, is it?”
    Again that would depend on circumstances. Currently yes but in the future more and more secular may become partial to a secular state of Arabs and Jews rather than a religious state.

    I have a question for you if some/all of the mosque(s) in London arranged a non-political outreach to Jews in London would you go along to help build community relations or would you boycott??

    Given the range of views in both communities how could one ensure that the event(s) progress?

  129. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 3:50 pm  

    The only real sense in which Israel is a religious state is that civil marriage ceremonies are not carried out in Israel – but rather in Cyprus. As you can imagine, this is an unpopular situation, and the creation of provisions civil marriages would be favoured by secular Jews. It isn’t a hot enough issue for anything to be done about it.

    Israel does not even use the religious definition of “Jewish”, which as you know, requires matrilineal descent.

    There are a huge number initiatives involving Jews and Muslims working together. As most Muslim and most Jews don’t regularly attend religious ceremonies – I don’t, for example – I’d have no interest in it at all. However, if religious people want to get together, that is a good thing.

    What I would warn against – and what I think you’d have significant problems with – is any “outreach” project that involved, any of the religious-political institutions linked to Jamaat-e-Islami or Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood. So, the Brick Lane Mosque would be a fine candidate for twinning etc. The East London Mosque (a Jamaat-e-Islami institution) or the Finsbury Park Mosque (Hamas/MB) would not be.

  130. Rumbold — on 30th July, 2009 at 3:52 pm  

    A zionist would only become a racist if he/she advocated a Jewish state in which non-Jews had less rights under the law, and which put restrictions on a change of religion.

  131. bananabrain — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:03 pm  

    Are the Ultra-Orthodox people to whom you refer the mainstay of the SHAS political party or is my ‘knowledge’ purely fragmentary and cartoonish?

    it depends what you mean. shas’s electorate is largely made up of people who feel marginalised by the largely secularist, european political establishment (i.e. both labor and likud) and as such tends to be poorer, browner and more religious. however, not everyone who votes shas is an ultra-orthodox sephardi; much of the electorate is not all that religious and they also pick up a lot of votes from the arab sector due to their stand on tax incentives for large families. the leadership of shas is almost without exception from the iraqi ultra-orthodox world headed by r. ovadia yosef. they are generally considered to be far more pragmatic in both religious and political terms than the ashkenazi haredi parties but are also far more likely to get caught (i use the phrase advisedly) with their fingers in the tills than the agudat yisrael leadership, as has just happened in new jersey of course, although that’s the syrian community, not the iraqis. naturally, i am appalled, but i wish i were more surprised. in my experience the international financial arrangements of the haredi world are long due a careful audit (probably by the same people concerned about hawala) because the lack of transparency around the funding arrangements for yeshivas, political parties and the pockets of major community leaders and rabbis is something i find quite alarming.

    Do you have an opinion about the rabbis – allegedly and indirectly – dealing in kidneys? Isn’t that a really dreadful taboo?

    it’s not forbidden to have a kidney transplant, or to arrange for one – these come under the rubric of saving life and are therefore permitted. however, dealing in them for profit is an appalling thing to be mixed up in, i mean, i could understand a small fee to cover expenses if this was really about helping people, but not what is effectively a commercial business making massive margins. incidentally, the cash-for-kidneys scandal is not apparently connected to the money-laundering stuff that the sephardi rabbis are involved in as far as i have been able to work out up till now, except insofar as they are both going on in new jersey, both involve religious jews and are being investigated by the same team. either way i hope it means that some change to the current system occurs as a result.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  132. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:05 pm  

    FEWER rights

    Zionism is just the name for Jewish (or to be more accurate, Israeli) nationalism.

  133. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:05 pm  

    “Broadly speaking you could say they all support a Jewish state.”

    So anyone who supports the existence of Israel is now a Zionist?

    Ok, so what if I’m not a Zionist (by your definition) then I support the end of Israel, to be charitable let’s say by peaceful means.

    Apart from the fact that seems somewhat unlikely, what would happen to the current citizens of Israel? Would they become Jordanian citizens again? Palestine, obviously, is every bit as artificial an entity as israel…

    And where does it end? Should the US be returned to the Native Americans for example? Should Islam, which after all was imposed upon Egypt, be made illegal and the nation returned to Christianity?

    What nonsense. I remember saying this to (the unlamented) Munir – if Israel didn’t exist, you would surely have to invent it.

    Strangely, he didn’t seem to understand what I meant.

  134. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:09 pm  

    ” lack of transparency around the funding arrangements for yeshivas, political parties and the pockets of major community leaders and rabbis is something i find quite alarming.”

    This is the point – and in fact, although we’re not talking about a theocracy here, the whole affair illustrates clearly the problems with financial authority being exercised within institutions by people who owe their position to their supposed religiousity.

    There is no institution in the world that doesn’t benefit from transparancy, oversight, and accountability. Voting is quite a good way of ensuring that. Choosing people on the grounds that they are ‘good torah jews’ evidently is a very bad idea.

    cf also: fiddling wiv da kiddies, amongst religious types.

  135. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:12 pm  

    “Apart from the fact that seems somewhat unlikely, what would happen to the current citizens of Israel? Would they become Jordanian citizens again? Palestine, obviously, is every bit as artificial an entity as israel…”

    Well, I look to the Hamas Covenant for that answer, which tells me as follows:

    The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

    So, my recommendation to Israelis is: start planting Gharkad trees!

  136. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:21 pm  

    Dave T – “There are a huge number initiatives involving Jews and Muslims working together. As most Muslim and most Jews don’t regularly attend religious ceremonies – I don’t, for example – I’d have no interest in it at all. However, if religious people want to get together, that is a good thing.”

    So you wouldn’t visit a mosque or a synagogue for such an initiative? What could bring you in to an event at a religious place to learn about one another?

    Would you bring your family say to a lecture or a bazaar or an exhibition?

    “What I would warn against – and what I think you’d have significant problems with – is any “outreach” project that involved, any of the religious-political institutions linked to Jamaat-e-Islami or Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood. So, the Brick Lane Mosque would be a fine candidate for twinning etc. The East London Mosque (a Jamaat-e-Islami institution) or the Finsbury Park Mosque (Hamas/MB) would not be.”

    Hamas I can understand and although I am not a supporter of them I would say that they need to be engaged to get them away from violence but that is a whole other debate. However I’d say that the Jewish Community including yourself are the losers by the failure to engage with the likes of East London Mosque.

    Equally I would remind you that Muslims do not like views within the Jewish Community but if they refuse to engage that is called extremism and anti-semitism.

    Engagement can’t be restricted and the lack of engagement is responsible for the hysteria and mistrust in both communities.

  137. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:27 pm  

    DaveT – “Well, I look to the Hamas Covenant for that answer, which tells me as follows:

    The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

    So, my recommendation to Israelis is: start planting Gharkad trees!”

    Oh don’t talk nonsense. That particular prediction applies only at the end of time in a specific circumstance with regards to a specific battle – it isn’t general and that is why I dislike this type of hysteria.

    Prior to this many other events such as the return of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) have to take place.

    By simply just regurgitating this nonsense you don’t help to tackle issues. If you want to stop Hamas then tackle these issues head on and tell them they are wrong not oh look what they say.

    For such an intelligent person who is able to obviously articulate himself in the corporate world as a lawyer your failure to argue back on these issues is silly.

  138. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:32 pm  

    I think he thinks so too, Imran. Still, you haven’t answered my questions.

  139. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:38 pm  

    “For such an intelligent person who is able to obviously articulate himself in the corporate world as a lawyer your failure to argue back on these issues is silly.”

    I didn’t write the Quran, the Hadiths, or the Hamas Covenant.

    If Hamas were to create a modern liberal democratic state, not premised on Islamist theology, which granted full equality to all persons irrespective of gender, sexual orientation, or religion, I’d support it.

  140. Sunny — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:41 pm  

    A zionist would only become a racist if he/she advocated a Jewish state in which non-Jews had less rights under the law, and which put restrictions on a change of religion.

    But what if Israel already had less rights for non-Jews under the law?

  141. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:41 pm  

    Oh and DaveT I am reminded of the time that Omar Bakri debated with a Jewish Rabbi on Channel 4 many years back. Bakri was quoting this nonsense out of context but the Rabbi was well prepared and had actually read the Qur’an and the relevant hadith and took him apart.

    The Rabbi basically went through argument by argument giving him the proper Islamic viewpoint.

    That is what is needed and not the hysteria of oh look at what they say. The former approach works and shows these people for what they are, the latter is simply showmanship and takes us no further forward.

  142. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:45 pm  

    DaveT – “I didn’t write the Quran, the Hadiths, or the Hamas Covenant.

    If Hamas were to create a modern liberal democratic state, not premised on Islamist theology, which granted full equality to all persons irrespective of gender, sexual orientation, or religion, I’d support it.”

    No you didn’t but if you are going to quote them then at least caveat it with the proper explanation. You didn’t write the law in this country either but as part of your work you have to articulate it and you wouldn’t take that approach in your professional life so don’t do it in your commentary role please.

    For Hamas to be changed needs them to be confronted where they are wrong as in the quote above and to do that you need to engage them.

    Its only by showing these ideologies they are wrong that your family and mine can be protected.

  143. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:46 pm  

    Boyo – Which questions?

  144. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:47 pm  

    Still it remains that Imran believes anyone who supports the continued existence of Israel is a Zionist, which includes Sunny whom I recall supports a return (as I do) to 67 borders. No wonder some people believe in a Zionist conspiracy – I never realised there were so many Zionists!

  145. Rumbold — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:48 pm  

    Sunny:

    “But what if Israel already had less rights for non-Jews under the law?”

    Well, whoever supported those laws in their current format I would consider to be a supremacist (as racist doesn’t really work in a religious context).

  146. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:49 pm  

    @133 Imran. My apologies for tarring you with the Zionist Conspiracy brush before you had an opportunity to respond!

  147. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:51 pm  

    So you wouldn’t visit a mosque or a synagogue for such an initiative? What could bring you in to an event at a religious place to learn about one another?

    A wedding or a funeral of a friend.

    Would you bring your family say to a lecture or a bazaar or an exhibition?

    Why? Religion is a private matter for religious people – it has nothing to do with me.

    However I’d say that the Jewish Community including yourself are the losers by the failure to engage with the likes of East London Mosque.

    Given that Jamaat-e-Islami wish to create a theocratic state, and were responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands of opponents of such a state in Bangladesh, during the War of Liberation, I’d be very unlikely to have anything to do with them.

    Equally I would remind you that Muslims do not like views within the Jewish Community but if they refuse to engage that is called extremism and anti-semitism.

    If there is a synagogue which is run by an extreme right and theocratic Jewish organisation – like Kahane Chai – I would also strongly oppose it.

    The Chief Imam of the East London Mosque is a man called Sheikh Qayyum. Qayyum attended the conference in Istanbul earlier this year, and signed the Istanbul Declaration, which threatened attacks on Jews supporting Israel, all over the world.

    The ELM also honoured and hosted a fat wanker called Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, who has been banned from Canada and the UK for calling on God to “terminate” the Jews. He has also called the Jews “monkeys and pigs,” and the “scum of the earth”.

    I have loads more on the ELM.

    Engagement can’t be restricted and the lack of engagement is responsible for the hysteria and mistrust in both communities.

    I’d say that the assessment of the ELM as a base for far right and antisemitic activism in the UK was not hysterical at all.

  148. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:52 pm  

    Once again religion rules supreme. I am getting tired of this.

    There is a British identity which should bind us together — but seems like people are too concerned about their religion while living in a secular country.

    Who appointed these community engagement spokespeople? Who voted for them and do they represent all British Muslims? Thankfully no.

    Religion is a personal matter and should have no manifestations in public life in the UK. Highlighting our religious identities more than our British identities on a continuous basis does all minorities great disservice — and the sooner people realise that the better they would be.

    The fall out and hysteria about 9/11, 7/7, the Mumbai attacks have been felt not only by the Muslim community but also by the Asian community both here and in the US. For fuck’s sake, Sikhs were killed because they were thought to be Muslim terrorists in the States.

    And what is this special interest in Israel Palestine when it should not affect how British citizens live with each other.

    And people’s religion are so important – that they feel camradarie with their religious brethren few thousand miles away rather than their fellow citizens – shame on them.

    I wish people who are so concerned about Israel – Palestine would do some work to try to improve the quality of life of people in British communities across the religious divide. And then we wonder why people think immigrants don’t assimilate — if someone reads this blog and the comments I would not be surprised if they made the assumption that even 2nd generation – 3rd generation brits cannot think themselves of being British first.

    That bloody attitude does play into the hands of the BNP.

    Well, I said I was going to be calm but when every think on this site becomes a religious or a I/P issue then its hard to be calm especially when it reflects badly on all of us.

  149. bananabrain — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:52 pm  

    So anyone who supports the existence of Israel is now a Zionist?

    to be precise, anyone who supports the right of the jewish people to national self-determination in our ancestral homeland is a zionist. note that there is nothing there about religious establishments, precise borders or disposessing and oppressing palestinians.

    This is the point – and in fact, although we’re not talking about a theocracy here, the whole affair illustrates clearly the problems with financial authority being exercised within institutions by people who owe their position to their supposed religiosity.

    the problem comes when hashkafa (as outlined above) actually trumps religiosity. you *should* be able to trust someone religious, because being religious ought to imply honesty, ethics, equity, probity and transparency. all of these are Talmudic and hence religious values. when you can’t trust religious people despite all of this then it means something is very, very out of whack and that for me is a religious issue. if religiosity isn’t synonymous with these moral values then i damn well want to know why i ought to respect religious authorities.

    There is no institution in the world that doesn’t benefit from transparancy, oversight, and accountability. Voting is quite a good way of ensuring that. Choosing people on the grounds that they are ‘good torah jews’ evidently is a very bad idea.

    yes, but it ought not to be. that just means there is a lot of work to do on redefining what it means to be a “good torah jew” and there the rabbis are going to need to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem as at present. the problem hitherto is that it is only the sephardis that tend to get caught and prosecuted which means that the ashkenazis are able to evade responsibility to look at themselves, whilst still maintaining the “religious = trustworthy” meme.

    ditto kiddy-fiddling, naturally.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  150. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:56 pm  

    “For Hamas to be changed needs them to be confronted where they are wrong as in the quote above and to do that you need to engage them.”

    I am very happy for religious Muslims to tell Hamas that they are wrong, on scriptural grounds. I am really not qualified or interested in debating theology with violent lunatics.

  151. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:56 pm  

    #140 – It is true that non-Jews in Israel have rather fewer rights before the law than non-Jews possess but, compared to the rest of the Middle East, Israel – for all its obvious and endlessly-proclaimed faults – is a beacon of decency and enlightenment.

    If you want to know about Israel’s faults, read the Israeli press. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with a free press and with noisy oppositionists walking free, including those opposed to the very existence of the State of Israel.

  152. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:58 pm  

    DaveT – “Why? Religion is a private matter for religious people – it has nothing to do with me. ”

    It is a private matter but it is part of the wider education and learning. I am not Jewish or Sikh or Hindu but I go along to learn what they believe and how they practice their faith.

    “If there is a synagogue which is run by an extreme right and theocratic Jewish organisation – like Kahane Chai – I would also strongly oppose it.”

    I don’t recall you opposing such things and indeed the visit of the Chief Rabbi of Israel who advocated ethnic cleansing of Gaza went by without comment on your blog.

    “I’d say that the assessment of the ELM as a base for far right and antisemitic activism in the UK was not hysterical at all.”

    Then that needs to be changed which can only occur by engagement and not hysteria. The hysteria doesn’t and hasn’t achieved much.

  153. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 4:59 pm  

    Sunny

    “Yes, it’s a provocative question. There is a reasoning behind it. I’ll come to that soon.”

    When are you going to share your reasoning with us?

    This was supposed to be a metaphor for Hasan’s piece on Israel “causing” antisemitism, wasn’t it? Brownie was right!

    Except you’ve now realised that only the racist posters are claiming that immigration “causes” racism… and you realise this reflects badly on Hasan.

  154. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:01 pm  

    “I am very happy for religious Muslims to tell Hamas that they are wrong, on scriptural grounds. I am really not qualified or interested in debating theology with violent lunatics.”

    But you do because you select quotes and headline them even if they are out of context!

  155. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:03 pm  

    We began here with the immigration issue, didn’t we?

    Isn’t it significant that black Africans are literally willing to risk their lives to cross into Israel from Egypt on foot, often after harrowing and desperate journeys?

    The Egyptians have shot several of these Africans to death.

    Frankly, the Israelis would be well within their rights to send these people home briskly, but the Israelis – for all their faults – offer these wretched people a grudging and awkward welcome.

  156. chairwoman — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:05 pm  

    “Zionism is just the name for Jewish (or to be more accurate, Israeli) nationalism.”

    I can’t count the number of times I have made similar (disregarded) statements.

  157. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:06 pm  

    “It seems like people are too concerned about their religion while living in a secular country.”

    To be fair, I didn’t realise I was English until the Scots began really uppity.

  158. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:07 pm  

    To be frank, Imran, the “Hamas are misunderstood and misrepresented” line isn’t really going to cut much ice with me or really with anybody else who isn’t already a Hamas supporter.

    When people claim that a quote or a scriptural quotation which talks about killing Jews or is merely “taken out of context”, they sound like idiots.

  159. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:08 pm  

    This is becoming a joke now — the discussion once again derailed on religion and Israel and Palestine issue.

    People want to take advantage of the secular state while themselves maintaining their own religious dogmas in all walks of life.

    And then we complain “oh people are being racist” or the Book says “you have to wear this” so those who say you should not are all intervening on my religious rights. Well you know what, and this goes for all religions — keep your religion and your dogmas in your home and religious places – don’t bring it in the civic context and no religious groups in this country have one single mindset — so stop claiming that anyone is speaking for any religion – all you can speak for is yourself.

    God help us all.

  160. chairwoman — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:10 pm  

    Shamit @ 148 – Well said.

  161. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:14 pm  

    DaveT – “To be frank, Imran, the “Hamas are misunderstood and misrepresented” line isn’t really going to cut much ice with me or really with anybody else who isn’t already a Hamas supporter.”

    Frankly you are talking nonsense. I didn’t say they were misunderstood and your deft move to imply really takes away from you not me.

    I said and I’ll repeat it as you have such a hard time understanding that the only way to change or defeat Hamas’s current ideology and the MB and all the others you name is to show that ideology is full of shit for want of a better phrase.

    Your approach doesn’t work and hasn’t worked which is why people are still killing each other.

    “When people claim that a quote or a scriptural quotation which talks about killing Jews or is merely “taken out of context”, they sound like idiots.”

    No they don’t as it highlights this is a specific thing and not general as you imply. As I recall if you want to go down that road Israeli Rabbi’s invoked similar biblical commands in the Gaza war and you were muted about that when it emerged.

    This claim of I’ll confront this is pretty selective.

    If that is the case then also confront their use of such killing.

  162. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:18 pm  

    From #155 -

    On the Africans crossing into Israel:

    http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=3&id=12104

    Bear in mind that 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 JEWISH children in Israel lives in poverty, according to the Israeli charities which tale ad space in HAARETZ and THE JERUSALEM POST

  163. Cjcjc — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:18 pm  

    Though your name rather has a Welsh connotation!

  164. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:19 pm  

    Shamit – “People want to take advantage of the secular state while themselves maintaining their own religious dogmas in all walks of life.”

    The question I had was how do you confront extremism and in civil society that is to show it is incorrect and not get hysterical and demand an end to engagement.

    If you want people to be part of society then you have to bring in all people and not exclude religious types. Rather where their religion is proving extreme that issue needs to be addressed without the Blears type hysteria.

    The point is we all need to engage and get to know each other better. If you exclude religion then you’ll miss significant segments of society.

  165. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:20 pm  

    I think it was today i read hamas have insisted all women lawyers wear the veil. No reason, other than apparently their bare heads will drive the men in the court into paroxysms of lust… not.

    I also read somewhere recently that the reason why Islamic nations performed so poorly was because half their population had its its horizons stunted (we can guess which half). I think that’s probably a more plausible argument for its woes than a small Mediterranean state…

  166. bananabrain — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:22 pm  

    Bear in mind that 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 JEWISH children in Israel lives in poverty, according to the Israeli charities which tale ad space in HAARETZ and THE JERUSALEM POST

    hence my firm stand on the need of the religious communities (for it is they that are the principal victims of this) to change their stance on birth control.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  167. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:22 pm  

    as for boyo, i just typed the first letters that came to mind, like cjcjc?

  168. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:28 pm  

    We WERE on the issues in #105 but obviously people here are happier snapping and snarling about Jews and Muslims in Palestine and magic trees which which conceal Jews on the Day of Judgement and so on ad bloody infinitum.

    One of Dickens’ characters, a Mr Dick, sooner or later comes back to King Charles’ Head; this site seems to have similar obsessions.

  169. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:31 pm  

    “If you want people to be part of society then you have to bring in all people and not exclude religious types. Rather where their religion is proving extreme that issue needs to be addressed”

    How about the religious types making an effort to join the mainstream?

    How about the parents teaching them about this country and how this country has been good to them? And they should love their country and if they want to change any policy they must get a degree and work with the system.

    And if they don’t like it they always have the option to leave mate –

    I am getting tired of this discussion – to be honest. Especially when its presented in the veneer of understanding — if you want understanding and compassion leave religion out of the civic context –

  170. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:34 pm  

    by the way, I have no time for religion nutters and that goes for all religions.

  171. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:40 pm  

    Shamit – “How about the religious types making an effort to join the mainstream?

    How about the parents teaching them about this country and how this country has been good to them? And they should love their country and if they want to change any policy they must get a degree and work with the system.

    And if they don’t like it they always have the option to leave mate –”

    Why should they leave? If you don’t like it why don’t you leave?

    Society isn’t full of robots and everyone needs to be brought in and not in the high handed manner you advocate.

    Religious types contribute towards the country and have rights as well.

    Engagement with them can bring about the things you highlight but highhanded bull will only bring wider divisions.

  172. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:45 pm  

    I’ll tell you what Imran.

    I’ll find you a BNP pub down in Thamesmead. You go down there for a bit of “engaging”, and then come back and report to us on how successful the experience has been for you.

    Then we’ll talk about the East London Mosque.

  173. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:54 pm  

    “Why should they leave? If you don’t like it why don’t you leave?”

    I love my country and I ain’t going anywhewre and people who don’t love this country can leave.

    I disagree with my country’s policy but I understand there is a democratic process and a legal process through which changes happen. But I do not find more affinity with Indians than my fellow British citizens or more affinity with Hindus.

    So if you do not like this country or how we are run and think your loyalties lie more with your religious brethren (that goes for hindus and sikhs too) – I say fuck off from my country.

    And if you feel no loyalty towards this country then why stay here — (i am not talking about you but those who feel that way).

    do you know all the british muslims — many of them are very pious yet love this country and would never ever say things some of those idiots in Channel S say sometimes. I know bengali and the shit they come out with is disgusting and I would not mind anyone of those apparent religious figures to leave this country and leave us in peace and that goes for all religions.

    Once again I love my country and I have always done so and so next time you ask me to leave the country where i was born and I love – my responses won’t be civil.

    Why play this game of understanding when you are as bad as Munir — the only thing that really gets you going is some sort of discussion on Islam or apparent persecution of Muslims or Israel palestine. So try your I am a mediator = Biggest bunch of bull. No one except for Sid used to call you on it. From now on I would.

  174. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 5:58 pm  

    Sid/Faisal was absolutely correct about you Mr. Cohen.

  175. Naadir Jeewa — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:05 pm  

    What was the last comment on this post that was actually on topic? I did a lot of scrollin’, but no joy.

  176. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:10 pm  

    This country is one of the most open and welcoming countries in the world where immigrants have done well and have been able to practice their beliefs.

    But no one should get away cussing this country especially since many of them who do so have done rather well here. Sadly some of the 7/7b bombers came here as refugees – we fed them, put clothes on their back and gave them education – they chose their religious affinity and apparent persecutions of Muslims thousands of miles away over the country that gave them sanctuary. And they learnt that hatred from religious people.

    So forgive me if I do not have much time for organised religion or their mouthpieces.

  177. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:13 pm  

    Immigration is often good for the country except for when we let murderous idiots into this country and give them sanctuary.

    Well those immigrants are nothing but ungrateful gits especially when they use our money and sanctuary to brainwash our kids

  178. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:14 pm  

    On #155 and #162P
    BLACK AFRICAN REFUGEES IN ISRAEL

    The present influx of black Africans is awkward and somewhat embarrassing for the Israelis, but also reassuring in a way; “See? We are still a beacon of hope for the totally helpless; the ‘Guardianistas’ and the BBC may have given up on us but these poor savages will risk a grim death in the Sinai desert to come here!”

    But if the flow continues and hundreds become thousands and thousands become tens of thousands and then the unending flow threatens to become hundreds of thousands …

    THIS is precisely what Britain faces, as does Greece and Italy and Spain and Malta, an unending flood of Third Worlders with no real skills other than becoming unproductive parasites in their new host society.

    Tragically, the Falashas – the Ethiopian Jews [or pseudo-Jews, according to some] in Israel have found the going VERY hard and are over-represented on the welfare rolls and, distressingly, over-represented in trouble with the law, in psychiatric hospitals and among the suicide statistics.

  179. Soso — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:20 pm  

    It isnt- its simply to point out your carping at an obscure Turkish film when you ignore Hollywood “anti-semitism” (anti-Arab racism) has been deep and pervasive for decades and its role in fostering the ideaology which underpins hatred of Arabs, which is far far more widespread

    Oh I know!

    Remember Elvis in “Harem Scare’Em”?

    Or Barbara Eden in “I Dream of Jeanie”?

    I’m still traumatised.

  180. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:29 pm  

    Shamit says “…often good for the country…”

    ‘Often’ is not ‘always’, is it?

    One could draw an instructive chart of WHICH immigrants are ‘good’ and which are less good and which are so vile they should be deported on sight.

    I was castigated for having uttered harsh words about Somalis, but I would insist that – with a teeny handful of useful and productive exceptions, usually from the posher classes of Somali society – Somalis have been a bloody awful pain in the arse wherever they’ve ended up, from Minnesota to Helsinki.

  181. Soso — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:34 pm  

    The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

    Oh don’t talk nonsense. That particular prediction applies only at the end of time in a specific circumstance with regards to a specific battle – it isn’t general and that is why I dislike this type of hysteria.

    Prior to this many other events such as the return of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) have to take place.

    Yeah, so Jesus the most famous Jew in history ( and no he’s NOT a Muslim but a Jew) will return as the Massiah just so Muslims can kill him?

    The above passage exhorting Muslims to kill Jews is disgusting, and can never be jusitifed by appeals to ‘end of times’ or any other such nonsense.

    That statement is clearly racist and cannot be excused with references to the ‘end-of-times’ or any other such nonsense.

    It’s the kind of “scripture” that needs a nappy, ya know?

  182. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:37 pm  

    Shamit – you clearly have a chip on your shoulder and if you love Faisal so much then go join his blog instead of whinging on here.

    I contribute to this country so I am entitled to my say and won’t be lectured to by you.

    If you can’t discuss respectfully then don’t talk to me.

  183. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:41 pm  

    Checked out this rabbi – evidently a wanker to suggest the moving of the population of Gaza. There were prominent calls for him to resign as a result.

  184. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:42 pm  

    “But no one should get away cussing this country especially since many of them who do so have done rather well here. Sadly some of the 7/7b bombers came here as refugees – we fed them, put clothes on their back and gave them education – they chose their religious affinity and apparent persecutions of Muslims thousands of miles away over the country that gave them sanctuary. And they learnt that hatred from religious people.”

    They learnt that hatred because the state failed to arrest the people who advocated extremism and was slow in reacting.

    It was a small minority of people and you can’t tar all religious people.

    Its twaddle like yours that alienates people and pushes them to think they may be different.

    The beauty of this country is that people embrace differences as part and parcel of the country and then people like you come charging in without understanding and demand people adhere to your narrow minded thinking.

    Religious people contribute to this country and enrich it and they won’t be shut up by people like you. We pay our taxes and have a right to be heard as long as its for the common good.

  185. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:43 pm  

    Don’t like answering questions that catch you out though, eh Imran? It’s a bit like living in the UK – we ALL have to accept that it stands for certain values, and we ALL have to tolerate one another. It seems however that some – the BNP and certain groups of Muslims – are less tolerant than others. A good example is the MCB, who I would put in the same category as the BNP – neither actually beat people up on the street (anymore) but both are openly racist, and both DO NOT embody British values.

  186. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

    Just living here don’t mean you are British. When Rudolf Hess landed here in his parachute he didn’t magically become British, he was still a Nazi.

  187. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

    DaveT – “Checked out this rabbi – evidently a wanker to suggest the moving of the population of Gaza. There were prominent calls for him to resign as a result.”

    No no no you said you’d stand up to this type of thing so go and do it. You get hysterical if Muslim clerics do this but now here is a perfect opportunity for you to have balance so lets do something about this please.

  188. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

    Personally I’d send the BNP back – to the Isle of Dogs!

  189. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:45 pm  

    Heh — oh poor boy Imran. tut tut tut. Did I hurt your feelings? oh I am so sorry – NOT.

    I did not start talking to you – read the thread you idiot. Read 148. You had to jump up and down and tell me to go from this country. So you start something and you can’t finish it.

    So why start? Go on and cry to your mates about how this Hindu boy thinks he is british and must be a muslim hater. Go on run now..

  190. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:46 pm  

    They could even have their own flag, with a bulldog on it (although I am actually quite partial to bulldogs)

  191. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:46 pm  

    Boyo – Which questions? I don’t understand what you are asking?

    I haven’t seen your questions. Which comment number are they?

    In between getting attacked by Shamit I can’t read everything.

    If you can point me to your questions I’ll try answer them.

  192. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:48 pm  

    ay caramba, for the second time 133! No hurry though, i’m about to go for a pizza if my g/f can drag herself away from the swimming

  193. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:56 pm  

    And I have nothing against religious people. Only those idiots who use religion as a divisive force and only those who think religious values should be imposed on wider society.

    If you want to live in a secular society — leave religion at home and places of prayer not in Government and not in all parts of life. No one questions people eating halal meat but when they start sympathising with their fellow religious brethren miles away over their country – I have a big fucking problem.

  194. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 6:57 pm  

    Boyo – “So anyone who supports the existence of Israel is now a Zionist?”

    With respect if you read the comment you’d see the context. DaveT was discussing Israeli Political parties excluding far left and Arab parties and I replied to that so its in respect to mainstream Israeli Political Parties. If you read the previous comments you’ll see what was discussed.

    “Ok, so what if I’m not a Zionist (by your definition) then I support the end of Israel, to be charitable let’s say by peaceful means.

    Apart from the fact that seems somewhat unlikely, what would happen to the current citizens of Israel? Would they become Jordanian citizens again? Palestine, obviously, is every bit as artificial an entity as israel…

    And where does it end? Should the US be returned to the Native Americans for example? Should Islam, which after all was imposed upon Egypt, be made illegal and the nation returned to Christianity?

    What nonsense. I remember saying this to (the unlamented) Munir – if Israel didn’t exist, you would surely have to invent it.

    Strangely, he didn’t seem to understand what I meant.”

    Again try actually reading the discussion at the time it was solely to do with Israeli Political Parties and not a generic comment.

    Look I believe the people in the region need to go towards peace with help of the West and the Arab World. Thats all I am pushing.

    I really don’t think you grasped what was being discussed at the time and have just jumped in to attack me out of context.

    The discussion related solely to Israeli Political Parties.

    But as you are so keen what do you suggest happens to the Palestinian population in the West bank and Gaza who have little or no status or prospects?

  195. Boyo — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:02 pm  

    Fair enough, I’m off now. As to your last question, as i said i favour a return to 67 borders (and a two state solution).

  196. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:03 pm  

    Shamit – “And I have nothing against religious people. Only those idiots who use religion as a divisive force and only those who think religious values should be imposed on wider society.

    If you want to live in a secular society — leave religion at home and places of prayer not in Government and not in all parts of life. No one questions people eating halal meat but when they start sympathising with their fellow religious brethren miles away over their country – I have a big fucking problem.”

    You really are so full of yourself that it borders on farcical.

    Many of the institutions of the secular world are based on looking after their brethren thousands of miles away. Blair went to war with his brethren thousands of miles away based on a pack of lies.

    If religious nutters do what you say then so do secular nutters.

    So should they leave as well?

    The European Union is a club to protect the interests of people thousands of miles apart.

    Religion plays a part in most secular society and you want to ignore that instead of engaging those people to ensure they stay part and parcel of society rather than becoming alientated.

    You are so full of nonsense that you fail to realise that whilst you bang on about Muslims and shit on them at every opportunity that people in the USA also get involved in that same dispute thousands of miles away as do people of other faiths.

    Its a reality that needs to be dealt with and telling people to feck off isn’t realistic.

    I rather suspect you and Faisal may be one in the same person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  197. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:04 pm  

    “Fair enough, I’m off now. As to your last question, as i said i favour a return to 67 borders (and a two state solution).”

    Me too and so is Chairwoman, Bananabrain (I think) and many others.

  198. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:08 pm  

    There is a world of difference between

    (a) “sympathising with your religious bretheren” and

    (b) embracing a lunatic theocratic conspiracy-theory fuelled identity politics which expands until it ultimately fills all aspects of your life, until you wander around dressed in pyjamas and peppering your speech with half remembered arabic phrases.

    (a) is entirely understandable.

    (b) is a mental illness.

  199. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:09 pm  

    “Look I believe the people in the region need to go towards peace with help of the West and the Arab World. Thats all I am pushing.”

    Good piece by the Crown Prince of Bahrain, which played well on HP:

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/29/salman-says/

  200. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:13 pm  

    DaveT – “There is a world of difference between

    (a) “sympathising with your religious bretheren” and

    (b) embracing a lunatic theocratic conspiracy-theory fuelled identity politics which expands until it ultimately fills all aspects of your life, until you wander around dressed in pyjamas and peppering your speech with half remembered arabic phrases.

    (a) is entirely understandable.

    (b) is a mental illness.”

    Excellent it always the Muslims who do this and not people who excuse every action of Israel huh regardless of what it is?

    We’ve seen you don’t quite live up to the hype in saying you’ll stand up to excess in your own community. When you’ve managed to write a piece or two on your own rabbis over there then get back to us mate.

    There are plenty of quotes by leading Rabbis who own political parties and their racist comments if you care to stand up to them. Try the Shas Rabbi who referred to all Arabs as snakes and said they needed to be….

  201. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:14 pm  

    Where was your comment instead of blind support of the IDF Rabbis who advocated religious war in Gaza? Lost in the post old chap?

  202. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:19 pm  

    Oh… and historically Israel was essentially a vassal state of Persia for a while (before becoming a vassal state of Rome).

    Geopolitically, that might still work. I suppose it might even happen.

    Persia gets pretty much the best write up of all countries in the Bible. Xerxes and Darius are generally portrayed as more or less good guys. Cyrus the Great is regarded as a sort of quasi-Messiah figure.

    Pity that this is forgotten.

  203. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:19 pm  

    “Where was your comment instead of blind support of the IDF Rabbis who advocated religious war in Gaza? Lost in the post old chap?”

    I don’t think I did post such a comment.

  204. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:35 pm  

    See?

    Started on immigration and now yet again back to bloody Israel – Palestine.

    Sooner or later someone will mention the U.S.S. Liberty and the El Arish massacre and then we’ll be off to Deir Yassin and the Balfour Declaration.

    Yet agin!

  205. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:37 pm  

    I have already gone back to Cyrus the Great: the leader of the second of the three great waves of Zionism.

  206. Soso — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:47 pm  

    I have already gone back to Cyrus the Great: the leader of the second of the three great waves of Zionism.

    There is a cylinder in Iran made for Darius ( I believe)upon which was written the first detailed statements outlining the prinicples of religious tolerance.

    But I’m far from immigration here.

  207. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:50 pm  

    There is a degree of syncretism with Zoroastrianism within Shiism.

  208. Imran Khan — on 30th July, 2009 at 7:59 pm  

    Dave T – “I don’t think I did post such a comment.”

    Thats the point – you pull up Muslims on such thinsg and get hysterical but clearly are lacking with regards to your own community.

    There was no comment because you just stood by whilst major news organizations reported this.

    You claim that you’d stand up but when the time came then stand didn’t.

    Now you can do it lets see the criticism as I’ve given you two recent examples to get going with.

    Its easy to point at the other all the time and that is what most organisations, media and blogs do. Its far harder to say lets overcome this.

    I don’t excuse extreme statements by any mosque but all I am saying is the best way to overcome them is by going in there in this country and engaging with them and proving them wrong. I am not saying you need to do the same in say Gaza but here it can and should be done.

    The BNP is a different kettle of fish but even here the likes of PP did engage to show them up by sending a list of questions.

    So yes it is possible and would achieve the end result you and I both want which is for people to live happily together.

  209. David T — on 30th July, 2009 at 8:16 pm  

    No, I think you’re missing the point.

    There is a small unsuccessful political party, that was trounced at the last Bangladeshi polls, and which operates through religious institutions, because it is a theocratic party. That party is based at an institution called the East London Mosque.

    There is also a person who claims to be a ‘vicar’ in the BNP, you know. Makes no difference. He is still a fascist.

  210. Celtlord — on 30th July, 2009 at 8:38 pm  

    Cryus’ Cylinder is humanities’ first attempt at what would be called by most human rights, the guy was most likely a genius

  211. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 8:59 pm  

    STOP PRESS

    TRUE NEWS: black children in Israel face expulsion

    ongoing dispute and debate

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1248277931804&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

  212. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 9:07 pm  

    IMMIGRATION ISSUES & LOYALTY ISSUES & ISRAELI ISSUES

    Click on the link in #211

    So what’s not to like?

    THREE terrific issues in one!

    Should these very cute and photogenic African children stay in Israel – and they grow up fast – plus the very well-travelled and savvy Israelis know well enough what Brixton and Moss Side and Harlem and Detroit are like!

    Please go to #211 above!

    Better still, send it to HP and every other site you can think of !

  213. Edna Welthorpe — on 30th July, 2009 at 9:09 pm  

    Is the David T who posts on here the same David T who runs HARRY’S PLACE or someone totally different?

  214. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 9:57 pm  

    Immigration has been good for Britain – and Britain has been good for immigrants.

    But there is a small percentage who have abused Britain’s hospitality and that has happened across all religious affiliation, skin colour etc.

    Unfortunately, no public policy or its execution can attain 90% accuracy let alone 100% – and so we would continue to get some undesirable immigrants who would fall through the system.

    But does that give rise to racism – or have our political leaders used it as bait and now can’t control the Frankenstein they have created?

    I don’t like the idea of Britain of different communities living together —

    But I do like the idea one community that has many faces and religions bonded by common humanity and a shared concept of Britishness.

    May be the failure of socio-political process is that we are yet to define and perusade people this concept of Britishness. And could that be a catalyst for racism?

  215. anobody — on 30th July, 2009 at 10:49 pm  

    There’s no such thing as Britishness beyond having a moan, and discussing the weather. Everything else that was defined as Britishness died when globalisation, and secular capitalism started.

    Why I wonder do the progressive generation not seek to liberalise and expand their world-view? Why do they remain so narrow in their focus? Why is nationalism important?

  216. comrade — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:08 pm  

    Shamit

    But I do like the idea one community that has many faces and religions bonded by common humanity and a shared concept of Britishness.

    How do you define Britishness? maybe you can elaborate on that. I dont support the war in Afganistan or Iraq I hate this captalist system does this make me less british?

  217. Celtlord — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:11 pm  

    Imran Khan

    Five decades,breaking on six, of genocidal animosity directed at Israel by arabs on the street and their “non-representational” governments, and your surprised that Israelis don’t like arabs. Radicalization or being part of the islamic awakening, of muslims leads to a …(sick of this word)
    radicalization of the populations upon whom islam directs it’s ire.

  218. Raymond Terrific — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:15 pm  

    I don’t mind immigrants

    I’d like to see plenty of scandinavians, canadians, eastern europeans, South Americans, etc. Not a problem.

    I don’t like religious fascists who put their religion before everything though. Quaint views but this is 2009 and we worked out evolution 160 years back. Fuck those people that think rape in marriage is okay, women should vote, jews are the cause of the world’s ills and adultery should be punished by death etc. Fuck em. We beat Nazism and we’ll beat them.

    Just a personal thing.

  219. Raymond Terrific — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:16 pm  

    sorry that should of course be “women SHOULDN’T vote”

    beofre I get support I’m not looking for!

  220. Shamit — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:38 pm  

    Comrade

    Defining Britishness – a daunting task. Far better minds are grappling with it – but I think not liking the war in Afghanistan or hating the capitalist system should be your right – and the right to choose and express your opinion should be inherent British values.

    So how could that make you any more or less British than anyone else?

    While I can’t define it – I think this sense of belonging should go beyond our political beliefs — but a set of ideals that we all pursue as a nation. Imperfect it may be – the simple ideals (although not always followed) have served the US well.

    And they have different mix of political beliefs, religions, colour etc — but the concept of America and being an American trumps most other in most cases.

    I do not claim to have the answer but I know dividing us into small cliques won’t deliver for us either. But I think it is a discussion worth having on what those ideals should be.

  221. Don — on 30th July, 2009 at 11:53 pm  

    Defining Britishness – a daunting task. Far better minds are grappling with it

    You think?

  222. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:02 am  

    Don

    I hope so. And I am not being cheeky

  223. damon — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:29 am  

    When I said that I agreed that immigration can cause racism, I just mean that the reality of centers of new immigration and the places where undocumented people live in the black economy (bedsit land) can and do look awfully shabby (and even a bit lawless sometimes).

    My local area like this is West Croydon. And it’s where you see those young Afghans and Kurds who have come over from France, (I guess) hanging out on the street, in the internet cafes, and playing the fruit machines in the bookmaker’s.
    They can be a bit cheeky at times, but Edna should not talk about ”knife wealding thugs” as I haven’t heard of them being particularly prone to cause serious trouble locally. They are just young men out in the big wide world, away from the stupefyingly conservative societies they grew up in, and are understandably testing their new freedoms a bit. (Trying to chat up girls, drinking down beside Lidl’s supermarket .. a couple are even sporting tatoo’s on their necks and like to look ”hard”).

    An area becoming one of these first ports of call for brand new immigrants becomes a different place to how it was 20 years ago. I would say that there might be people who pass through an araa like West Croydon and think that it’s the immigrant’s fault that the area has become run down and shabby.

    ”Two thirds of children under the care of Croydon Council have arrived in the borough as unaccompanied asylum seekers”.
    http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/politics/Exclusive-Majority-children-Croydon-Council-care-asylum-seekers/article-848300-detail/article.html

    Some of them lie about their age.
    http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/news/4363030.Council_welcomes_judgement_on_young_asylum_seeker_s_ages/

    I think that we could have a whole other discussion of how ‘ghetto’ bedsit areas develop, and why.

    David T said somewhere that only the racist posters would say something like this. But I think that some of the drinkers in the pubs around Whitechapel and Shadwell in Tower Hamlets possibly could feel a certain amount of isolation from the (seemingly) very closed Bangladesi Muslim community that predominates in the area.
    I stoped there again this evening to check the name of that back street pub next to Shadwell DLR station that I mentioned yesterday. The one that is now a takeaway. It was this one, The Britania.
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3489/3253901236_8e02bfeaf2.jpg?v=0

    In the arches of the railway bridge right next to it, there are several what look like wholesale grocery businesses, and outside just chatting were a groups of young men. I’m pretty sure these men did not grow up in England, but in Bangladesh. You wonder (well I do) how they got to live here. You can’t just decide you want to go and live in England and get a one way ticket there.
    Maybe they’re students, or have married British citizens or have come on tourist visas … or maybe it’s none of my business.

    If I sound too negative, I also see our multi-culturalism being a success in many areas. (At my niece’s Lambeth high school for example).

    Why the school next to Shadwell station in Tower Hamlets (Bigland Green Primary) is 98% Muslim is another matter.
    And that’s the school where there’s a jucy Daily Mail/blogosphere story about a teacher ”getting sacked for reprimanding pupils who made racist remarks about his being a Christian”.
    It’s probably a BS story ..(who knows?)

  224. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:01 am  

    Damon -

    “Don’t touch me! You’re not a Muslim!’

    The dismissed teacher is claiming for unfair dismissal, if I have that right. The story, predictably, is on *American Renaissance*

    And nobody said ANYTHING about the link on #211 -

    illegal border crosiings / immigrants / pathos / exclusion / tensions / / expulsions and even Israel … the story has it ALL and no comments at all

    Not one!

  225. damon — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:02 am  

    Yes Edna, it was your link a several days ago that pointed me to that story.
    I think it’s quite pathetic how the story is picked up on blogs all over the world, when all there is to go on is the Daily Mail account. It maybe true, but I don’t think it deserves the ”shock horror” treatment.
    And I can’t take American Renaissance too seriously, as their comments sections are filled with daftness like: ”This is the end of the white man”.

    Maybe no one commented on your link @ 211 because Israel is not really relevent here.
    Surely we’re talking about ‘normal’ western countries.

    Does immigration cause racism? Well in Milan, some locals have got a bit annoyed about Chinese immigrants changimhg the face of a neighbourhood by turning it into a Chinese business wholesale area.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RSzKngmBRw&feature=channel_page

    I was in Rome a few years ago and saw exactly this situation there too. I was staying near Rome’s main railway station, and I couldn’t really understand what was going on in three or four streets just by it.

    Nearly all of the shops were clothes shops run by Chinese staff, and the place was sterile and dead.
    There were hardly any customers, just shop after shop with some window displays of clothes, and some bored looking Chinese staff inside, just standing about waiting.
    I couldn’t really work it out.
    You could tell by the architecture of the buildings in those streets (which had flats above them) that this was not some rundown wharehouse district, but an integral part of central Rome, which by rights should have been full of the usual businesses and cafes.
    But it was only these Chinese shops with (seemingly) no customers. I had wondered if they were front businesses for organised crime because it seemed so odd. It was only when I saw that YouTube that I understood what was going on.

    Btw, I hope that me raising points like this is not seen as me ‘taking more rope’ as it were.

    In this YouTube, an ambitious Chinese businessman in Dublin talks about his plans to make a Chinatown there. It’s prefered location would be the Parnell street area, just off the main street in Dublin.

    Trouble is (if trouble you can call it) that Parnell Street has it’s own very particular local history, and it used to be one of my favourite streets to visit.

    As central as it is, it has always been somewhat rundown, with some great old smoky dive pubs (that have probably closed down by now). Just nearby there were some of Dublin’s poorest and historic districts, which had a very particular working class inner city culture.
    Being somewhat of a shabby and run down street it has been ripe for redevelopment and business opportunities, and it was here about ten years ago that I saw the first shops catering mostly to African people.
    Then some Chinese resturants and businesses opened and gave the place a different feel to how it used to be.

    I have wondered how much you (one) might want to listen to any local objections to this area becoming a Chinatown. And by local, I mean the poorer working class people who have roots in the area and who might feel as if they were being pushed out.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWLTuFPDgRI

    And Edna, this (below) does not sound like it’s something so terrible for the people of Ireland.
    The world moves only forewards.
    http://www.ucc.ie/ucc/depts/geography/stafhome/denis/spiller.htm

  226. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:41 am  

    “We’re doomed! The White Race is doomed!”

    Look, AMERICAN RENAISSANCE is an open forum. Yes, there ARE certainly some rather unbalanced nutters nutters who contribute but one can say the same about any opinion forum, this one and HARRY’S PLACE and SOCIALIST UNITY included.

    One simply has to pan for the gold hidden in the gravel.

    ON THE CHINESE IN ITALY
    Crudely speaking, I’m pro-Chinese and one can argue that is some countries* they are the very best of immigrants but essentially in a mature society the issue is – as Enoch Powell once said – a “question of numbers.”

    Five Chinese-owned shops in the old city – no problem! How about fifteen or thirty or fifty or … ?

    The demography of mass immigration is one of the natives – especially the poorer natives – “being swamped” and being supplanted and eventually being replaced. The native fuzzy-wuzzy Fijians have strong opinions about this, as do the Polynesians of Hawaii. As do the Dyaks of East Kalimantan and the tribals of the easternmosr States of India. And, of course the Uighers and Tajiks of East Turkestan and the natives of Tibet; in both instances the locals are – or soon will be – a minority in their own society.

    We won’t live to see it, but the Australian ruling class has – in effect – voted for the replacement of their children and grandchildren by clever, prize-winning University-educated East Asians, mainly Vietnamese and Sino-Vietnamese.

    This is quite a distinct issue from the utter insanity of the Australian political class in welcoming Lebanese Muslims [a ready-made criminal class with a truly foul reputation they have worked hard to earn in a mere 30+ years] and now Somalis and the Sudanese ‘lost boys’

    * Then there is the question of loyalty. Many overseas Chinese perceive their primary loyalty as a compelling duty to the Great Chinese Motherland, without too much fussing about the complexion of the politics involved. Now that the KMT in Taipei and the CCP in Beijing are snuggling together, something which has been predicted for 50+ years, Overseas Chinese are more than ever inclined to listen to the whispered importunities of commercial and military espionage agents.

    This seems to be happening with increasing frequency.
    Watch this space.

  227. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:50 am  

    RE #225 THIRD LINK

    Lovely! Multiculti good! Multiracial good! Xenophobia bad!

    Sesame Street feelgood factor on MAXIMUM SETTING!

    I am now aged and I clearly remember this debate in 1957 – how we’d love – aimply love – Caribbean cuisine. Then there was the stuff about curries and ethnic restaurants!

  228. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:53 am  

    Continued from #227 above …

    Then there was the 1964 election and “If you want a nigger neighbour, vote Labour” in Smethwick

    Then more and more immigration

    Then worse and worse and worse …

  229. Boyo — on 31st July, 2009 at 8:04 am  

    This one is for Sunny, in particular. ;-)

    Surely an excellent example of integration would be the army of the British Raj…?

    Here various colours and creeds fought for the monarch, and all were viewed as soldiers of the Crown and were tremendously loyal and proud to it (alright, with the minor exception of the Mutiny).

    Brown soldiers were treated no differently to white ones, indeed the whites used to complain that while they could be flogged this was not allowed on the “native” troops.

    When we (and I mean we) burned down Peking’s Summer Palace, it was in revenge for the torturing to death of 20 of our soldiers. When challenged (by the French) on the proportionality of this, Elgin said: ‘Out of proportion? A few moments ago you looked on something which had been infinitely more beautiful and of incalculably greater value than anything ever created by a Chinese architect: the body of a soldier of the Queen. His name was Ayub Khan.’

    Of course a hangover of the Raj is the beloved Gurkha regiment.

    Naturally it was run by a self-perpetuating elite, but let’s face it – little has changed….

  230. Boyo — on 31st July, 2009 at 8:08 am  

    I tell you, that Ghandi fella has a lot to answer for….

  231. Jai — on 31st July, 2009 at 9:35 am  

    I tell you, that Ghandi fella has a lot to answer for….

    Especially when the man’s surname was actually spelt “Gandhi”…..

    The native fuzzy-wuzzy Fijians

    That kind of casual racism and denigration may get you a chortle amongst your cross-burning cracker redneck buddies on the sub-Stormfront cesspit that is “American Renaissance”, “Edna”, but to the rest of the world it makes you look like an obsolete dinosaur and a bigotted social misfit who has been spending excessive time on the internet.

    It’s the 21st century. Get with the programme. 1957 was a looooong time ago.

  232. Jai — on 31st July, 2009 at 10:00 am  

    Why I wonder do the progressive generation not seek to liberalise and expand their world-view? Why do they remain so narrow in their focus?

    If I may make a tangential point, that’s actually the fundamental problem with racists and bigots of all stripes. It’s an inability — or unwillingness — to take those feelings of basic indentification with, and empathy towards, their “group” (whatever that may specifically be, from their own perspective — ethnicity, nationality, religion, etc etc) and extrapolate that to the entire human race.

    This is basically where it all stems from, irrespective of whatever excuses and rationalisations they may make in order to justify their attitude and their subsequent behaviour towards the targets of their bigotry.

  233. Jai — on 31st July, 2009 at 10:03 am  

    ^^Note: Despite the paragraph I’ve quoted in red, I’m not actually talking about “progressives”. Just in case it needed clarification for anyone’s benefit.

  234. Katy Newton — on 31st July, 2009 at 10:16 am  

    We won’t live to see it, but the Australian ruling class has – in effect – voted for the replacement of their children and grandchildren by clever, prize-winning University-educated East Asians, mainly Vietnamese and Sino-Vietnamese.

    Ha. That’s racism for you every time. It’s not the fear that the Other is worse than us. It’s the fear that the Other is better.

  235. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 10:21 am  

    Jai,

    I was thinking along similar lines. There seem to be people with an inclusive mind set and there seems to be those with an exclusive mind set. The two groups, it seems to me, are always talking at cross purposes. So, I, as an old white guy find myself agreeing with you and also find myself increasigly alienated from the increasingly shrill comments of oor Edna.

    But that’s just how it is. For some, their clan loyalty is more important than their humanity.

  236. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 10:47 am  

    “There seem to be people with an inclusive mind set and there seems to be those with an exclusive mind set.”

    Very well said Douglas

    Jai

    The common bonds of humanity is a concept very hard to grasp for many people. Its like common sense — which is not common to all.

    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if those images seen in Sci-Fi flicks became a reality — where the world came under attack from aliens. Then suddenly, what would happen to the divisions of religion, ethnicity, etc etc – may be then myopic visions would go.

    Natural calamities such as the Tsunami a few years ago did not kill based on religion, skin colour or creed — it just killed humans and brought upon great misfortune to many families of many nationalities. Wonder, if Edna was there – whether she would be offended being saved by a South East Asian bloke/lady. Or would she be thankful that her life was saved.

  237. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:03 am  

    “There seem to be people with an inclusive mind set and there seems to be those with an exclusive mind set.”

    Very well said Douglas

    Damn right.

    Those bloody secularists.

  238. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:07 am  

    Jai seems to think vituperation and abuse is as good as any measured response.

    The ideal commentator on the “being swamped” factor would be a native Fijian or a native Hawaiian or mayber a Uigher or a Tibetan, but – unhappily – none of them seem to contribute here.

    The surviving Ainu and the descendents of those Native Americans who rose in rebellion in King Philip’s war now work in the tourism industry, usually in the employ of the descendents of those who won the immigration war. One can be sure that the Ainu and the surviving Native Americans of New England have strong opinions about mass immigration.

    One wonders whether Jai feels that the fuzzy-wuzzy Fijians ought to feel happy and grateful to have been swamped by the indisputably higher-IQ and more enterprising East Indians.

    After, all one can be certain that “the Fijian health service would collapse” if it weren’t for the effort the East Indians are making while the native Fijians, simple and indolent souls that they are, are sitting around waiting for the coconuts to fall.

    Probably the same argument can be made in Kashgar, Urumchi, Lhasa and Shigatse [yes, I was in all four places but that was over a decade ago, and at that time 80% - 90% of the jobs requiring smarts were very obviously being done by Han Chinese immigrants; things may have changed one way or the other since then, but I doubt it.]

    Katy Newton raises an interesting point. The resistance to East Asian immigration on the part of working-class white Australians and New Zealanders well over a centuury ago – the capitalist class, naturally, was all in favour of mass East Asian immigration – was that in next to no time the industrious, frugal and provident Japs and Chinks would own everything.

    Why do you love your children? Do you love them because they are taller or smarter or handsomer than other people’s children or do you love them simply because they’re YOURS?

    This is a primitive and ungoodthinkful sentiment in the eyes of the goodthinkful and quite obviously the primitive tribespeople of the Eastern states of India are very very wrong to hack up the higher-IQ and industrious Bengali immigrants who tiptoe into their valleys and start chopping down the ancestral forests.

    But, you see, in their simplicity and ignorance those tribespeople are demonstrating that they love their own children and grandchildren more than they love other people’s children and grandchildren.

    A ‘Hope not Hate’ team should be sent to them at one to impress the errors of their ways on them.

    ADDENDUM:

    We should be aware of what is going on in the wider world, not just in Brick Lane and Boltonistan.

    SHIMON PERES, GOOD FELLOW THAT HE IS, OPPOSES EXPELLING THE PICANNINIES CURRENTLY IN ISRAEL

    Click on the link provided in #211 above

    Some people in the Israeli government are for expulsion and others are for welcoming absorption. The obvious problem is that absorption of the Falashas, the Ethiopian ‘Jews’, has been beset by baffling and unending problems.

    These newcomers are over-represented on the welfare rolls and in the ranks of those in trouble with the law. They also have a distressingly high rate of suicide.

    Discuss.

  239. Jamesw — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:09 am  

    How can Jews criticise the Nuremburg Laws of Nazi Germany (which prevented Germans marrying Jews) when now days, Jews do not recognise marriage between Jews and Gentiles?

  240. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:13 am  

    “Damn right.

    Those bloody secularists.”

    Secular people are inclusive – they don’t care about people based on their religion. And religion should not matter in inter-personal relationships or in the eye of the law.

    Secular people are not against religion – but they are against imposition of religious indoctrination on society. How one practices their faith is a very personal matter – and secular people believe it should stay that way.

    Religion, as history shows, have been cause of way too much bloodshed – all in God’s name. I wonder what GOD thinks of that.

    It did not stop wars between France and UK — Germany and France. UK and USA just as it did not stop Pakistani atrocities in Bangladesh or the Iraq-Iran war – or the conflict between Iraq and Kuwait.

    Secularism means acceptance of all religion and respecting all faiths yet ensuring that religious indoctrinations do not impede on the functioning of the State and forging a cohesive society.

    In a globalised world, no matter how much people try to put down secularism – it is probably the best way to move forward.

  241. Jai — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:19 am  

    Jai seems to think vituperation and abuse is as good as any measured response.

    “Edna”, it’s a very appropriate response indeed to your persistent use of the abusive and derogatory term “fuzzy wuzzy” in reference to native Fijiians.

    Unless you now want to be described as a “cracker” and a “redneck” at each and every convenient opportunity, it would probably be in your own best interests to desist.

  242. Jai — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:25 am  

    Shamit,

    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if those images seen in Sci-Fi flicks became a reality — where the world came under attack from aliens. Then suddenly, what would happen to the divisions of religion, ethnicity, etc etc – may be then myopic visions would go.

    It’s a tricky one. There would be many who would indeed “see the light”. Unfortunately, based on countless precedents throughout history and across the world in relation to armed invasions by fellow humans, there is a horrible possibility that there would also be people who would be more than happy to submit to the principle of “Divide and Rule”, and would therefore be more focused on collaborating with the hostile force and selling other people down the river (especially those they have a grudge against) due to their own narrow selfish, self-centred interests.

  243. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:25 am  

    Secular people are not against religion – but they are against imposition of religious indoctrination on society. How one practices their faith is a very personal matter – and secular people believe it should stay that way.

    So secularism in itself is a doctrine and an ideology?

    In a globalised world, no matter how much people try to put down secularism – it is probably the best way to move forward.

    Yeah, in a globalist world created by secular capitalism, pushing secularism on non-secular countries, waging wars against non-secular countries and non-secular values. Based on secular dogma in the guise of trying to liberalise the masses, when in fact it is trying to homogenise society into one way of thinking.

    Very much like organised religion to me.

  244. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:33 am  

    [ re. #240] Shamit -
    God disapproves very strongly. He told me so in a dream. Well, that’s how he usually communicates, isn’t it?
    Of course, I live in hopes of being visited by the beautiful angel [Satan in disguise, naturally] who takes Jesus down off the cross in Scorsese’s brilliant ‘Last Temptation of Christ’ –

    “God doesn’t want you to suffer!”

    Eager as we all are to learn, here is new stuff from opinionated and probably ungoodthinkful sources:

    BOSNIA:
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027077.php

    and EURABIA:
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027072.php

    If Munir were here he’d yell about this site being run by Jews!

  245. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:34 am  

    Religion, as history shows, have been cause of way too much bloodshed – all in God’s name. I wonder what GOD thinks of that

    Nazism, Communism, Ba’athism?

    Not religious.

    Iran-Iraq Kuwait-Iraq was not religious.

    A quote:

    “The statement that wars have been fought in the name of God is a non starter. As the theologian Walter Wink once pointed out, more people have died in the twentieth century’s secular wars than in the preceding fifty centuries of fighting combined. No religious war in history,not all the religious wars of history added together, did as much damage as this century’s wars of nationalism and ideology. So if we are to ban religious sentiment from public life because it has been responsible for so much horror, let us not forget to ban advocacy of freedom or justice as well.”

    Walter Carter from his book Civility.

    I’m sure you’ve heard that before.

  246. damon — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:37 am  

    I agree with those anti-racist comments above.
    That you can’t be putting asside our common humanity to ”defend’ some kind of tribal loyalty.

    Though that’s of course what people all over the world do.

    But more urgent than attacking racists and ignorant comments, what’s always focused my attention is what ”we” should say about some of the difficult situations that we are faced with.

    So racists will bemoan the arrival of Roma people from eastern Europe in to western European countries, but I’m more concerned about what ”we” in western Europe should do as far as the Roma are concerned.

    Should we readily accept that it would be better if as many as possible were given the chance to start new lives in the west? And if so, how far should we try to integrate them in to our societies? (meaning that their unique culture would be eroded as they just become regular everyday citizens of their new countries).

    This Youtube is a sympathetic report on the plight of Roma in France.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdNL4pHxmpo

    And this one is a depressing report from Rome on Al Jazeera.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWHkuZdDzKw&feature=channel

    I’ve been watching several other similar YouTubes that are shown (on the same web page) as being of a similar subject.

    We know what the racists think (”get them out – send them back”) but I’d like to know what we should do about it (as countries and local councils).

  247. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:37 am  

    Forgot to add Zionism!

  248. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:46 am  

    I’ll even add Israel/Palestine into the mixer.

    It’s a land grab, based on nationalism.

  249. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 11:56 am  

    Anobody

    Secularism accepts all religion and people’s right to practice their religion in their homes and their places of worship.

    Funny those who rile against secularism, live in secular societies and practice their religion as they see fit. Has anyone stopped you practicing your religion at home or at your place of worship? The answer is No.

    However, if today, the US and or the UK go through massive constitutional ammendements and become officially jude0-christian/ Christian States – and practicing other religions openly becomes taboo. I wonder wouldn’t we all crave for a secular society.
    *************************************************
    Wars have been waged in the name of God by organised religion – and it had nothing to do with religion per se or faith but people using religion to control others.

    However, I guess then the NATO war against Serbia or the Indian intervention in then East Pakistan were all wrong. So what if Muslims were getting slaughtered?

    Or who cares if children in Afghanistan get their faces hit with Acid bulbs because they want to learn and learn beyond whats written in the Koran?

    Or women being flogged in public — and told to stay at home.

    The common bonds of humanity trumps all others and in today’s world what happens in a far flung country can and does affect what happens in Britain and US and other places. The only way we can all go ahead is if we go ahead together — and to do that you would need education and emancipation of women. Because women have a massive influence on children as mothers.

    Now, why is it so wrong to build roads, and generate electricity or build hospitals and schools — nothing I would hope. And to ensure the people in Afghanistan can build a better quality of life we need to fight the Taliban. But we need more help so that the schools and the hospitals work — hence there are Afghan medical students and engineering students in India and other parts of the world. People being trained to develop an independent yet effective civil service. What is so bloody wrong with that?
    ***************************************

    Finally in a secular society everyone has equal rights and equal responsibilities in the eyes of the law. In non secular countries that is not so. So would you like Britain becoming a non-secular country? if not are we not being a tad bit hypocrite?

    *******************************************

  250. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:03 pm  

    Damon -

    Are you taking your meds?*

    It can truly be said of the Roma that distance lends enchantment to the view.

    In fact, various city governments in Bulgaria have – this is 100% true – erected screens so that drivers and passengers on the highway are shielded from the sight of the Roma ‘mahala’ and are thus literally spared any view of the Roma at all.

    Damon refers, possibly with a straight face, to the ‘plight’ of the Roma.

    One would be far more inclined to sympathise with the plight of those who have to endure the sight, stench, noise, theft and begging which the detestable Roma and their vile sprawling encampments impose on other people.

    During the last-but-one major election in Bulgaria the leader of the National ATAKA party suggested that the Roma problem could best be solved by boiling the Roma down to make glue [like Dr Rudolf Spanner's concentration camp soap.]

    * This is an American question. Wives ask it of husbands when they utter something stupid.
    It’s good, isn’t it? Rather like the rhetorical question “Was there a school in your village?”

  251. Ravi Naik — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:12 pm  

    Secularism accepts all religion and people’s right to practice their religion in their homes and their places of worship. Funny those who rile against secularism, live in secular societies and practice their religion as they see fit. Has anyone stopped you practicing your religion at home or at your place of worship? The answer is No.</blockquote.

    People who are against secularism are not content even though they have the freedom to practice their own religion, they actually would like the State to enforce their brand of religion to others.
    That's the ugly truth.

  252. damon — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:14 pm  

    This was the link I meant to do above.
    About the Roma in France.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLo2g_ECxU&feature=channel

    I am minded as I write like this that the thread might have been ”set up” to flush out racists.

    I have said that I think immigration can cause racism, and when I say that, I’m thinking about issues like with the Roma.
    And the African migrants who are so viiable if you travel around places like Italy and Spain. (Sleeping rough, or wandering around selling stuff in the streets.)

    Can their presence cause racist sentiments amongst the population?
    You’d think it must (amongst ignorant people).

  253. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:27 pm  

    Good point Ravi @251–

    But be careful mate -You never know when you might get accused of hating a particular religion or its followers.

  254. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 12:31 pm  

    anobody,

    I agree with what Shamit said at 249, and what Ravi said at 251. Especially the last paragraph of Ravi’s post.

    I’d actually try to make the case that, if there is such a thing as ‘Britishness’, then that’s the definition of it. I’d really prefer to see these as universal values, but apparently there is some way to go on that project.

    So, one nation under whatever God(s), or not, that you chose. But don’t harm others….

  255. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:04 pm  

    Edna,

    You really don’t hold back, do you?

    One would be far more inclined to sympathise with the plight of those who have to endure the sight, stench, noise, theft and begging which the detestable Roma and their vile sprawling encampments impose on other people.

    One would be far more inclined to think that viewpoints like that say more about you than they do about anything else.

  256. BenM — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:23 pm  

    No, immigration does NOT cause racism.

    It is the COVERAGE of that immigration causes racism, or provokes the already dim and prejudiced into convulsive fits of rage at slanted or downright misleading newspaper stories covering the issue.

    This last decade of shrill, insufferable, self-absorbed xenophobic whingeing has been based on the feebleness of the Tory Party (up to a year ago), the replacement of them by an irresponsible press, and a Labour Party too weak to push back the wave upon wave of anti-immigrant hysteria in those papers.

    The flaccid “rise” of the knuckledragging BNP can be best understood in that context. In the real world migrants arrive here, work hard, stay for a bit, then return home. When the economy was booming, Britain was a major pull on those available resources. Now the economy is flailing, those migrants look elsewhere for jobs.

    It was always going to be like this, despite the desperate attempts of shady so-called “think tanks” to project population explosions from the top of the migrant wave.

  257. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:24 pm  

    Shamit,

    I’m not riling against anything. What I am saying is you cannot claim religion is this that and the other, without laying those charges against your own secular belief system. Secularism is a belief system, it is an ideology, and it is a system of control.

    Your salvation, is probably 2.4 children, a house a trophy wife and a nice ride? (Maybe I am being too simplistic). Mine is passing through this world, avoiding worldy desires, pleasing Allah, and hoping I make it to the equivalent of the pearly gates.

    As a Muslim, I see the world as borderless. As a Muslim, I think I’m more globalist in my view[I am not gloating or thinking Khilafah or anything like that before I get a PP fatwa thrown on me]. Allah didn’t create boundaries between groups of people. Boundaries are artificial.

    So being here, is the same as being in any other part of the world. Secular concepts of poverty, freedom, happiness is all relative to where you are. If I were to be persecuted elsewhere for practising my religion. I’d be happy knowing if I died because of it, I’d be a martyr – if Allah accepts me.

    You see my crimes, I see yours and my own. As a person who has grown up with two polarised ideologies, which are both a part of me, I think I am more better placed to see which one I prefer. You may disagree, but that’s your prerogative.

    As a Muslim, I do not fear death. I fear the wrath of Allah. Most Muslims believe the same. I cannot judge on the flogging of any woman or man, but what I can say is my secular upbringing tells me it is wrong, but my religion teaches me if she has died a Muslim, and Allah judges her death premature, she is guaranteed salvation. You should be happy for her, that’s what she believes. If she was innocent and a Muslim, she believes she will go to Allah, if she was guilty and aware of her crime and the crime is truly punishable by Shariah, then time to face the music. I guess.

    I suppose you’re thinking, it’s all good me sitting here and saying that. But let me assure you – I shouldn’t say this as I shouldn’t wish death upon myself- but if I died tomorrow in the hands of man for a crime I didn’t commit, sitting here now I am more happier for this to occur, than if I lived to see another day to endure another day of sin.

    I’m sure most people of a religious conviction feel the same.

    Morbid stuff hey?

    Anyway I’ve gone off on a tangent, but my point is, you cannot claim the moral high ground based on your secular ideology, when in fact based on your own moral code -freedom, humanity, liberalisation – you commit the same crimes as religious ideology.

    Allah knows best.

  258. Ravi Naik — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:26 pm  

    I’d actually try to make the case that, if there is such a thing as ‘Britishness’

    Nationalism is a deeply flawed concept because it fights to preserve “identity”.

    But identity is something that IS, not something we own and therefore preserve. Identity is temporal, it evolves with social attitudes, politics, technology, and over time, with genetic mutations and environment. Only a fool thinks he can stop this evolution. The British identity today is different from the identity a 100 years ago or a 1000 years ago.

    So, the BNP keeps mumbling about preserving the British identity from 1943 or going back 3000 years ago. It is really refreshing when a political party is not afraid to say they want to take Britain to prehistoric times.

    Can the BNP say that tea – an Asian beverage introduced 400 years ago – is not British because it is not “indigenous”, or did it become indigenous and part of our identity afterwards?

    I am more sympathetic to David T’s calls to patriotism, specially in a multicultural setting. Though I think Americans are not really a good model – I mean, that flag worshiping is nauseating to say the least.

  259. Ravi Naik — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:36 pm  

    So being here, is the same as being in any other part of the world. Secular concepts of poverty, freedom, happiness is all relative to where you are. If I were to be persecuted elsewhere for practising my religion. I’d be happy knowing if I died because of it, I’d be a martyr – if Allah accepts me.

    They aren’t relative. You either have the freedom to pursue your own path as an individual without repercussions from the government, or you have a regime that persecutes you for not following theirs.

    I understand that living in a secular and tolerant society like ours makes it hard for you to die as a martyr, but you know, we like it to keep that way, thank you very much.

  260. Ravi Naik — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:41 pm  

    Allah didn’t create boundaries between groups of people. Boundaries are artificial.

    So the term Kafir is also artificial? :)

  261. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 1:42 pm  

    Ravi,

    Err…

    My next sentence said:

    I’d really prefer to see these as universal values, but apparently there is some way to go on that project.

    Do you agree with the sentiment, even if we both see the difficulties, or not?

    I’d imagine, as nationalism has been appropriated by the BNP in England, that I might take a similar view to you. But I don’t live in England and our local flavour of nationalism is a lot different. Indeed the SNP stands Asian candidates pretty regularily. How does that work?

  262. Sofia — on 31st July, 2009 at 2:11 pm  

    Ravi- i think you misinterpret what context ‘martyr’ is used in…if someone dies in the way of islam,…whether it is a personal struggle or not, they are a martyr..so technically he could die as a martyr whereever..although it is not up to us to decide

  263. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 2:13 pm  

    # 255

    douglas clark might care to spend some time touring those cities, towns and villages of the Balkans with large Roma populations. He shouldn’t miss the large ‘mahala’ in the city of Dobrich in Bulgaria or the smaller one in the village of Pobeda, 7 kilometres away.

    Failing that, he might rent the Sacha Baron Cohen film ‘Borat.’ The scenes supposedly set in Kazakhstan were filmed in the large Roma village ['mahala'] of Glod in Romania.

    Note the fine new houses with satellite dishes amid the crude hovels and potholed lanes. These fine houses belong to the heads of clans; it is they who send their wretched subjects forth to steal cars, to beg and to rob ordinary people.

    When cars, motorcycles, bicyles, fridges and tellies go missing the police will invariably make a courtesy call on the Roma mahalas in case the missing item has somehow found its way there. Enough said?

    Of course the goodthinkful consider that antiziganism* is a crime as horrid as common-or-garden racism, but the goodthinkful seldom live close enough to the Roma to enjoy the enrichment and diversity which Roma bring to a community.

    * This word is not often encountered in English, but now that Roma are enriching the increasingly-vibrant and multicultural British Isles with their presence we may be reading and hearing it more often.

    The BBC, that Strong Fortress of goodthinkful people, referred to the Roma thieves and beggars in Belfast as ‘Romanians,’ as those Roma indeed were and are in a formal passport-carrying sense. You may be certain that this use of misleading language was an editorial decision made on high by the likes of Greq Dyke and his heirs and sucessors.

    In just the same way, psychopathic armed terrorists are habitually referred to as ‘militants’ just like they were acned adolescent Trots peddling copies of the SOCIALIST WORKER in Market Street in Lancaster.

    #258
    Somewhere in an essay on H. G. Wells, George Orwell observed – this is quoting from memory – that Wells [was] a member of the anti-militarist middle classes, impervious to the jingle of spurs and “the catch in the throat as the old flag goes by.”

    Yes, all this flag-worship and Emperor-worship stuff can be overdone and it can easily be hijacked by very evil people, but it IS good for nations to have a cultural and national identity. Every school day in Malaysia – which is almost a textbook example of an ‘invented country’ – begins with everyone standing up and singing the national anthem.

  264. Soso — on 31st July, 2009 at 2:38 pm  

    I don’t excuse extreme statements by any mosque but all I am saying is the best way to overcome them is by going in there in this country and engaging with them and proving them wrong.

    You don’t ‘engage’ with fascists and nor do you tickle them and cajole them. No, you maginalise them, denounce them and delegitimise them.

    Certain ‘wrongs’ are self-evident and require absolutely no proof

  265. linda — on 31st July, 2009 at 2:40 pm  

    Crikey youre a firey lot.
    I will admit i dont understand every thing you are talking about but.To go back to the question.Does immigration cause people to vote for the BNP and cause racism.In my opinion no it doesn’t.If your’e a racist you are coloured prejudiced.Which i am not.Many of the immigrants are in fact white.I don’t mind a persons colour.I don’t mind a persons religion.What i do mind and object to is the open door policy for immigrants.I believe we are allowing far too many in.I think it is having an affect already and the problem will get worse.As the BNP are the only party openly tackling this problem and listening to what people are saying then i can well understand their popularity growing.I believe we are what the government has made us.We cannot make a comment about a persons colour,not in a nasty way but in any way.Our freedom of speech isn’t as it should be.People are angry not racist.Having immigrants jump the housing queue .Which they say doesn’t happen.Well believe me it does.Also the job situation.They will say the immigrants are only doing jobs we wont do.That’s another load of rubbish.I know people out of work who would do any job offered.There aren’t any for them.Where i live is a highly Asian populated area,we all seem to get along very well together.However now they have moved so many immigrants in tension is building.Its not only the white British against it.Many Asians Muslims etc are too.My answer to the question is a definate no.

  266. justforfun — on 31st July, 2009 at 2:50 pm  

    Doug – Iknow you asked Ravi but here is a possible explanation
    Indeed the SNP stands Asian candidates pretty regularily. How does that work?

    Scottish nationalism is about gaining power by framing the political agenda around regaining what has been lost to Britain ( and England) and imposed on “Scotland” – ignoring Scottish complicity and active participation in the construction of “Britain”. This route to power rather than about progressive policies that are independent of tribal affiliation. SNP policy is a hotch potch of opportunistic policies around a core nationalist agenda.

    BNP nationalism, as espoused in England, is also about gaining power, and like the SNP it is attempting to frame its political arguements around tribal affliations , but unlike the SNP its not about the PAST but about FUTURE loses to an outside imposed cultural change – but in this instance from black people. Why Black people? – because in an English context they are easier to target and vilify and coagulate ones own perceived vote bank. There is no point the BNP choosing the Scots or the Welsh as targets because they are harder to frame as a cultural threat to the ‘English’.

    In Scotland – the SNP don’t vilify the ‘blacks’ because what is the point – they are not the threat around which the SNP need to coagulate its support – because its support needs to coagulate around ‘opposition’ to a cultural threat that has ALREADY gained power – ie Britain. The SNP want to coagulate its support around opposition to Britain (and by close association the English). Both the SNP and BNP are nationalist parties using the best ‘nationalist card’ that plays well in their particular card game. Just because SNP has Asian candidates does not mean racism does not exist in Scotland – it just means racism is not a political card that is worth playing by its nationalist politicians. The gains are not worth the effort in its primary objective. However once Scotland gains its independence – then what was a nationalism about regaining power from Britain, will cease to be relevant and I predict a switch to a defensive nationalism about protecting ‘Scottishness’ from future cultural threats – and then the Asian candidates will be given the push by future post independent nationalist Scottish parties.
    Why do I think so – because I have received far more racist abuse in Scotland than here in rural England, so I know Scotland is not some post-racist society.

    Perhaps the above is an explanation of why the SNP permit Asian candidates.

    justforfun

  267. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:12 pm  

    Shamit

    So being here, is the same as being in any other part of the world. Secular concepts of poverty, freedom, happiness is all relative to where you are. If I were to be persecuted elsewhere for practising my religion. I’d be happy knowing if I died because of it, I’d be a martyr – if Allah accepts me.

    They aren’t relative. You either have the freedom to pursue your own path as an individual without repercussions from the government, or you have a regime that persecutes you for not following theirs.

    I don’t want to get into a debate on freedom, because if freedom was truly that, we would have anarchy. I’m sorry but freedom in the west is what is defined by the state. Persecution is always there whether it’s overt or covert. This level of freedom changes from country to country.

    As linda has said in post 265:

    “I believe we are what the government has made us.”

    Muslims are abd’allah and admit to it, and similarly secular fundamentalists are the equivalent to their state. Unfortunately, the progressive generation do not want to admit to it.

    I understand that living in a secular and tolerant society like ours makes it hard for you to die as a martyr, but you know, we like it to keep that way, thank you very much.

    It’s not you who likes to keep it that way, it is your secular religion. You keep thinking you’re a free man. That’s exactly what secularism is there for you to do.

    I am already in a jihad (shock, shock, horror, horror), of the nafs and these challenging times, where the Muslim has replaced the Communist, is exactly as how Allah has said [I'm not saying Allah wrote about Commmunism], so it is good times for me.

  268. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:13 pm  

    Ravi Naik #258

    One would probably choose to distinguish teeny-country nationalism [see the strident amateurish patriotic stuff made by Abkhazians* and South Ossetians on YouTube] and Great-Power-Nationalism, like that of the People’s Republic of China and the Russian Federation:

    http://news.bbc.uk/2/hi/europe/8166020.htm

    * One is instinctively sympathetic to small-country nationalism, but it can be as vile as any other [if usually on a smaller scale]

    In their struggle from small-country liberation from Georgia, the Abkhazians perpetrated plenty of hideous now-forgotten atrocities; in the Sukhumi Massacre, one lot of former Soviet citizens beheaded others in the city’s soccer stadium.

  269. Ravi Naik — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:19 pm  

    Douglas, I was *not* replying or criticising you – I wanted to say something about nationalism and identity and picked up on what you were saying (which I agree).

    Unfortunately, as you say, the term nationalism has been hijacked by odious and racist people. This of course has nothing to do with the SNP.

  270. anobody — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:27 pm  

    Allah didn’t create boundaries between groups of people. Boundaries are artificial.

    So the term Kafir is also artificial?

    No.

    Laillaha illallah – the message from all prophets throughout all generations. Those who choose to reject it Allah described as kafir.

    So no, it is not artificial, or a man made concept.

    I was talking about boundaries in the sand/mud. These are artificial. Islam is for all of mankind, and for all tribes. Similarly, fundamental secularists want to promote secular values for all of mankind and for all tribes, with religions practised in a secular way- but they do not want to admit it. That is my argument.

  271. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:36 pm  

    The BBC link was wrong:

    http://news.bbcuk/2/hi/europe/8166020.stm

    NATIONALISM DEFANGED:

    Here the delectable Koyanagi Yuki sings Kimigayo at a baseball game while dressed like a Las Vegas sex worker:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq1dN1TZyFQ&feature=related

    Just remember that POWs were beaten to death for failing to show sufficient reverence while Kimigayo was played

  272. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

    THIRD CACKHANDED TRY:

    Russian nationalism:

    http://news.bbc.uk/2/hi/europe/8166020.stm

  273. Adnan — on 31st July, 2009 at 4:00 pm  

    Edna,

    maybe you’ll get it right fourth time eh (article Russians thinking that historians have it in for them) ? But do your arguments boil down to:

    a) British nationalism of the BNP variety is rather genteel compared to nationalism as practised by Johnny Foreigner.

    b) A warning to immigrants and their descendants of what could be in store for them.

    c) Some immigrants are not as nice as others and will resort to all kinds of tricks to stay and do all kinds of bad things. Nice folks like you bring in skills and will go back home one day (but maybe the UK is your room 101?).

    BTW, I believe you when you say you don’t support the BNP: probably a bit too socialist for you :)

  274. justforfun — on 31st July, 2009 at 4:08 pm  

    No anobody – I admit it.

    Non secular states can be tolerated as long as they are weak – but I’m all for muscular secularity – the alternative is not an alternative you would be happy with. I’m afraid I would not put my money on Islam surviving in a non-secular world. The capacity for a the secular ‘Christian’ world to annihilate its existential threats is not to be underestimated and if pushed it will do so. But I suppose for those who ‘believe’ in a final judgement day, this is of no concern as heaven awaits whatever.

    justforfun

  275. Sofia — on 31st July, 2009 at 4:15 pm  

    “You don’t ‘engage’ with fascists and nor do you tickle them and cajole them. No, you maginalise them, denounce them and delegitimise them.” really?

  276. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

    #273

    Adnan – don’t miss Koyanagi Yuki singing Kimigayo on the second link on #271; this thread is running towards the horizon but it won’t last forever.

    As to the BNP, it will never gain power. Nor will ATAKA.

    However, noisy minority parties can and do alter the terms of the political debate. Simply by yelling about the damage which mass Third World immigration has inflicted, and IS, inflicting on British society.

    Even if there were a total and absolute halt to Third World immigration right now, something which Postman Pat in the Home Office does NOT want but which most Brits DO want, real social integration would probably take generations, if it could ever really be achieved at all

    http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/041027_immigration.htm

    A pessimist would say that integration or expulsion lie ahead and that integration in places like Oldhamistan is a total impossibility

    #274 – justforfun -

    Secularism and Islam? Is Dalrymple right or is the Turkish expeience a better guide?

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html

    Wait and see, as Stanley Baldwin said …

  277. Carmenego — on 31st July, 2009 at 5:25 pm  

    Christ on a bike.

    I’ve spent the best part of an hour reading through these comments, and Edna Welthorpe, I wish you’d just bugger off onto a BNP-sympathiser forum and leave the actual debating to the grown ups. I’ve found pretty much all of your comments offensive, ill researched, and frankly irritating.

    “Oldhamistan”? FFS. Have you even been to Oldham? It’s great – they’ve got an Imax cinema, loads of great restaurants and shops, and according to some, the highest concentration of Rover’s in the world.

    And all that bullshit you were posting about Somalis – have you ever met a Somalian? Actually sat down and had a decent conversation with one? There were a few Somali kids in one of my classes at college and they were no different to anyone else, other than the horrific circumstances under which they were compelled to leave their home country, and the fucking abuse they had to put up with almost every day from ignorant, petty little racists like you.

    We are so lucky to live in such a tolerant, open minded country with the resources and the grace to help those in need. It makes me sick to my stomach when people like you get on your high horse about things you’ve only read about in the Express.

    You’re a small, sad, marginalised little person and I am glad that your batshit opinions are on the fringes of society.

  278. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 5:45 pm  

    Oh dear! Back to angry personal abuse!

    Immensely-rich Britain has “…the resources and the grace to help those in need …”

    Super! Those resources OUGHT to be used to benefit the natives – those who’ve been here 12,000 years, give or take a year or two – rather than on the barefoot flotsam and jetsam of the Third World.

    “… help those in need …” Enough to make one reach for the Kleenex!

    Carmenego, I have travelled far more than you, lived and worked in continental Europe, Africa and Asia and know far more than you do. I would be embarrassed to be seen reading the MAIL or the EXPRESS.

    On Somalis, I think I met my first Somali in 1978 in Jeddah. A while before YOU met a Somali first, I’d imagine.

    Do you feel Britain needs tens of thousands of more Somalis? Do you feel that they have attained a high cultural level in their own vile hellhole or are likely to attain one in Britain? Read Richard Burton on the Somalis! Or – better and easier -dig out the ‘Economist’ obituary of General Aideed.

  279. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 6:02 pm  

    Edna Welthorpe – the alter ego for Joe Orton.

    Whose alter ego are you in real life Mrs. Welthorpe? Some of us read those letters — I guess you are a widow living alone as well and you would undoubtedly deny any such existence of an alter ego.

    Some of the comments you make do make sense and one could see that you have read widely and most likely travelled widely. Yet, your views seem parochial to say the least – bigoted is the word that usually comes to my mind.

    Travelling and living in different cultures opens one’s mind but somehow it does not seem to be the case with you. You decry third world immigration – and you do not support tribalism either — so where do you stand?

    What is the purpose Mrs. Welthorpe?

  280. Adnan — on 31st July, 2009 at 6:02 pm  

    The affable old buffer mask slips…

  281. Shamit — on 31st July, 2009 at 6:04 pm  

    or as Mr. Orton would say the existence or the essence of one’s purpose in life — could you shed some light on yours.

    Obviously, I do not wish to be rude to an old lady especially one who is intelligent yet bigoted – I am perplexed.

  282. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 6:36 pm  

    justforfun,

    Quite a while ago I did a post about why, absent the settlement question, and given the fact that they had a fair chance of gaining power, that I had joined the SNP.

    It had nothing whatsoever to do with the issues you raised, it seems to me it is the party most likely to implement a left wing / green agenda.

    I do not, not for one moment, think that Asian Scots are ‘useful idiots’, who are there to be used and discarded. And, perhaps more to the point, I think they are shrewd enough to have worked these things out for themselves. They are, for instance, far to embedded in the political structures for that to ever happen. Indeed, they are as well integrated into the Scottish Labour Party as they are into the SNP. The Glasgow Central General Election will be between Osama Saeed (SNP) and Anas Sarwar who is the Labour candidate. I wouldn’t bet the house on it, but I’m pretty sure one or the other will be the next MP.

    I am sorry you encountered racism. I certainly don’t agree with that, nor do I think everything in the heather garden is rosy, but these people are engaging in real politics, with real prospects of success in a constituency that is still pretty well white.

    Final point, the BNP have signally failed to make any impact up here at all.

  283. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:04 pm  

    In college communities, different races can get along up to a point. The real world is a harsher place; two years of life in Malaysia impressed on me that racial harmony is best guaranteed in a despotism or semi-despotism [and I would call Malaysia a soft semi-despotism]

    Did I say race? It is not skin colour of which we speak, is it?

    It’s integration and social interaction.

    NATIONAL IDENTITY
    OVERCROWDING
    SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR
    Immigration of a few Sufis and Ahmadiyyas, no bother. This was explained in #105 above – which really needs polishing and sharpened up a little. Then publishing in a sixpenny pamphlet to be peddled in or close to the gates of Hyde Park, like in the Old Days.

    [SUDDEN THOUGHT: Whatever happened to British Israel? Maybe some crank sects disappear when the last active member dies of old age]

    ON CULTURAL IDENTITY:
    One Shinto Temple in Liverpool – SUPER!
    Two? Five? Twenty? Then it’s a very different story.

    Ditto for one mosque in Kobe, which there is … but Japan’s vigilant immigration policy will probably guarantee that there isn’t a second one needed.

    There are also Sikhs, Hindus and Jews in Kansai but not enough to annoy the locals; Chinese and Iranian criminals – or the mere rumour of their existence – scare and dismay the locals.

  284. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:12 pm  

    I stared at the name of the writer. If not a pseudonym, it suggests descent from a Muslim-Algerian Tlemcen family.

    http://www.meforum.org/338/islam-in-france-the-french-have-themselves-to

    Good clear thinking but certainly ungoodthinkful …

  285. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:20 pm  

    STOP PRESS

    Press TV just this minute said that Britain was the Power most given to interfering in Iran!

    Good – and amazing – to know that under the ferocious One-eyed McBroon the Little Satan is more blameworthy than the Great Satan!

    Me, I’d advocate an Andorran Foreign Policy and simply auction the Falklands and Gibraltar to the highest bidder[s]

  286. Don — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:31 pm  

    #285

    That has long been the Iranian perception. Nothing to do with Brown.

  287. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:38 pm  

    STOP PRESS:

    Press TV just reported that one reaction to the Musharraf verdict was “… dancing in the streets.”

    What do they do out there in Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad?

    Form a conga line or do the hokie-cokie-and-shake-it-all-about or re-enact highlights from ‘Swam Lake’ or is it more like the sort of Modern Dance one saw in Elvis’ ‘Jailhouse Rock’ or what?

    Is anyone going to post highlights on YouTube?

  288. Don — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:44 pm  

    Never mind ‘STOP PRESS’. Post bloody links and speak plainly. And if people are dancing in any streets I’m sure it’s on YouTube.

  289. Don — on 31st July, 2009 at 7:47 pm  

    Press TV? Galloway, Ridley, Gilligan and Whale. Amazing what you can pick up in the remainder bin.

  290. Edsa — on 31st July, 2009 at 8:16 pm  

    I have visited PicPol after a while and discovered Edna – a fascinating writer, no matter what she writes. Is it really a woman named Edna or some figment dreamt up to confuse innocents like me?
    Anyway, I too am curious about the street dance format in vogue to celebrate the Supreme Court censure of Musharaff.
    And auctioning the Falklands and Gibraltar is not a bad idea – Musharaff might be a bidder with a view to retiring there.

  291. Don — on 31st July, 2009 at 8:22 pm  

    That may be one too many gin slings, Edna.

  292. Edna Welthorpe — on 31st July, 2009 at 8:23 pm  

    Press TV’s Sister Ridley has an excellent discussion about the Uyghurs / Uighers [various possible spellings] on right now.

    However, here’s something on the U.S.A. founding race committing suicide by encouraging mass immigration:

    http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/090729_kaufmann.htm

    Any comments?

  293. Edsa — on 31st July, 2009 at 8:45 pm  

    Don, most unfair to dismiss George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley as no more than bin-worthy.
    They are fighting for the common man and the Palestinians oppressed by the pitiless Israelis.
    Don the mantle of humanity, Don.

  294. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 9:25 pm  

    Edsa,

    I suspect you are no ‘innocent’ to internet forums.

    Don the mantle of humanity, Don.

    is actually quite funny.

    However, your near namesake is perhaps a species of semi intelligent parrot which seems to shit in any environment in finds itself in.

    I doubt there is any regular reader here that hasn’t considered her points of view, expressed in that disgusting Michael Malchin, Anne Coulter certainty that only some women do, and then found them anything less than odious.

    If you are her fan club, then so be it.

    As Carmenego said @ 277 ré your friend, find somewhere else to go.

  295. Don — on 31st July, 2009 at 9:26 pm  

    #292

    the rise of Jews to elite status in the United States and the influence of particular Jewish intellectual and political movements, especially the push for mass and indiscriminate immigration, were key contributions–necessary conditions–to the demise of WASP America.

    And then it got nasty. Comment would be superfluous.

  296. douglas clark — on 31st July, 2009 at 9:45 pm  

    Don,

    What is this ‘elite status’ shit?

    It seems to me that people that are, err..

    ‘not very good’

    apply that soubriquet to people that are able to argue them into the ground.

    Personally, and this is just my own view, the demise of a WASP America would be a very good thing indeed.

  297. Arif — on 31st July, 2009 at 9:50 pm  

    I think it is less the fact of immigration or cultural difference, but fear which is most likely to stoke racism. And that fear can stem from many things – fear of losing in competition for jobs or other economic fears for example. Or in the case of Muslims, there is also a fear of terrorist violence nowadays.

    I remember in the 1980s how the moral panics were mostly focussed in the media on African Caribbean youth. On the other hand, I could read articles in the Daily Mail praising Muslims as a wonderful traditional community which is “more British than the British”.

    Times change and fears shift – not because the sources of immigration have changed in itself. But perhaps the sources of competition or fear of crime or fear of political violence or so on are presented differently to us. But we are all susceptible to fear and to simplification – even without helpful nudges from the mass media.

    And I’d say we are all capable of taking a more long term view of our self interest in terms of getting on better with one another, rather than trying to remove each other.

    So for me the sources of racism are psychological and social – we can all be pushed by our fears to a place where we are tempted to insist on a self-centred concept of justice.

    Then other factors like convenience, excessive pride, desire for group belonging or confusion can buttress racist worldviews when the fear subsides, giving them a life of their own.

  298. damon — on 1st August, 2009 at 1:16 am  

    Maybe my bringing up the Roma people wasn’t really right in a thread about immigration (not that anyone other than Edna has talked about it, and ‘she’ seems to want to carry on where the Nazi’s left off).

    Because, Eastern Europen Roma are not just ordinatry immigrants, but bring with them some very challenging issues for those people who will have to deal with them, (councils, social services … even next door neighbours).

    While I said immigration can cause racist sentiment, … living in a reasonably successful multi-cultural enviroment also makes society a whole lot more well-rounded and more ‘humane’.

    I guess you could argue though, are there areas where things haven’t gone so well?… or where examples of ”parallel lives” being lived by different communities is seen.

    So maybe if you think of the most multi-cultural (multi racial) places you know quite well.
    Can you think of areas where things could be improved?

    As I drive around London, the different kinds of neighbourhoods never cease to make me look twice.
    One minute going down Whitechapel road past the East London Mosque and so many of it’s people (young and old), wearing the clothes of Bangladesh (or generic ‘muslim clothes’).
    And looking in the pubs as I sit at the traffic lights – and even on friday night (two hours ago) they seem somewhat forlorn and quite empty (and quite a few round there are just boarded up).

    Is that a harmonious community? The Bangladeshi’s and other immigrants and their children – alongside the old East End working class white population.

    Through The City and over the river to The Elephant and Castle. Hundreds of people standing at the numerous of bus stops there. Really really ethnicly diverse area. (A lot of Africans in that part of town – and Southwark has a large proportion of its population living in council housing). A happy place?

    The Aylesbury Estate has some of its largest blocks all evacuated and boarded up, waiting for demolition.
    Tony blair went there on his first day as prime minister. Estates like that in Southwark are like the United Nations with people from all over the world.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/6699967.stm

    Has anyone lived on council estates like that?
    Where poor people from everywhere are living cheek by jowl in pretty challenging physical enviroments.

    With Somali aslyum seeker families lining next door to elderly white people, and African families, and South Americans, and Turkish, and Albanian and Bangladeshi families all living together. Does it make a community? Or do people tend to just do their own thing and pass each other like ships in the night?

    I see that on a sunday mornings, much of the African community in that area is in serious church going mode, with women in their elaborate west African sunday best, and the men all suited up.
    I wonder if they have much to say to the Afghan families living on their landing of their council block.

    Heading back down to Balham in Soth London (like I just did tonight), after leaving the Elephant, (which is pretty grim), and heading down to Oval and Stockwell (which are also pretty grim), you then come into Clapham, and suddenly it’s all different.
    Middle class white people are packing the bars and resturants all along the high street.

    And passing Clapham Common on weekday early evenings, you see large numbers of middle class youngish white people playing organised games of touch rugby and softball. It’s so different to Whitechapel and the Elephant and Castle.

    Does immigration cause racism? It’s not really a yes or no answer I think.

    BenM @ 256:

    ”No, immigration does NOT cause racism.

    It is the COVERAGE of that immigration causes racism, or provokes the already dim and prejudiced into convulsive fits of rage at slanted or downright misleading newspaper stories covering the issue.”

    I can’t see how you can blame it all on the media.

    Unless you mean things like this too.
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E3DF1F31F934A15756C0A9619C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

    Chistopher Caldwell has already been discussed on PP a few weeks ago. I wouldn’t say I agree with all his opinions, but it would be a useful place to begin a discussion from.

    To go though what he says, bit by bit, and try to come to an agreement about what the actual reality is.

  299. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 4:09 am  

    #297

    Yes, times change, don’t they? Was it really as recently as the 1980s?

    DEPICTIONS IN THE MASS MEDIA:

    Afro-Caribbean youth: Obnoxious and criminally-inclined ganga-fuelled layabouts. Not nice.

    Muslims: Well-behaved [even 'respectful'] and frugal and industrious close-family-network people. Nice.

    Roma: Rupert Bear meets Gypsy Granny

    “It is the coverage of immigration that causes racism…” is one claim.

    This cannot POSSIBLY be true; countries where the media is under strict nannyish supervision still experience outbreaks of communal hatred. Malaysia is a case in point.

    Damon tells of of driving around London. There are places with Somalis, Turks, West Africans, Albanians, South Americans, Turks, Bengalis and the too-poor-and-too-old-to-flee remnants of the white proletarian Well, that *salade macedoine* sounds like NO ‘community’ at all.

    Robert Putnam, among others, have considered the sensitive issue of multiculti realities and community involvement:

    http://www.vdare.com/sailer/070701_diversity.htm

    In multi-culti and hyper-diverse agglomerations of people, ‘community’ hardly exists although the term is used ad nauseam. The more ‘diversity’ means the less real ‘community’ is the reality.

    Is Edsa a real person or an acronym, like Estonian Democratic Socialist Alliance?

  300. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 4:22 am  

    If you check out the link given on #299, don’t miss the link given to the considered opinions of one Madeleine Bunting.

    Written in the goodthinkful ‘Grauniad’ this classic little gem tells us that mass immigration is jolly bad for a sense of community in the short term but – in the long run – we’ll all be holding hands and singing ‘Kumbaya’

    In the meantime:

    NOSOTROS LOS GRINGOS UNIDOS
    JAMAS SERAMOS VENCIDOS

  301. damon — on 1st August, 2009 at 10:30 am  

    Edna, while it was interesting to read the Madeleine Bunting article you linked too (and it’s from a point of view like she makes in that piece that I’d like to explore these issues), you’re killing off any chance of reasonable discussion on PP with all that cavalier callousness you are putting out.

    It’s no good just talking about thieving Roma.
    These are our citizens and we have to do something to integrate them into the wider European society.
    I recognise that the task in the short and medium term can look almost impossible, but there is nothing to be gained from adding to the hate.

    What to do about the young men who are smuggling themselves across Europe and end up in places like Calais, I also don’t know. I was hoping some Picklers might have an idea. All I know is that it should be done humanely and talk of ”knife wealding thugs” doesn’t do much good at all. (Even if knife carrying is something that is quite common in parts of the Balkans and some of those guys know how to handle an AK47).

  302. Edsa — on 1st August, 2009 at 10:48 am  

    Dear Edna keeps referring to that enigmatic site vdare.com. It has very Anglo concerns – keeping out “illegal migrants” (non-whites that is) and mourning the loss of Anglo influence in the US through the Jews and flawed immigration policies.

    The site is named we are told after one Virginia Dare, the first white (English)child born in North America. Why on earth are they commemorating this obscure birth instead of mourning the Anglo slaughter of the Native Indians by the millions?

    The first arrivals (Puritans/Pilgrims) under the pretense of being victims of persecution seized a heaven-sent opportunity to grab land but how to justify their greed? They took a line from Psalms 2:8. “Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” The Old Testament is full of passages inciting violence, racism and grabbing land from indigenous inhabitants.
    Following the Bible injunctions, European marauders have declared grabbing land and killing natives as a godly quest: from the Spanish in Latin America, the Anglos+French in North Americas to the Boers seizing South Africa and the Zionists grabbing Palestine.

  303. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 11:21 am  

    Here’s a tale of interest.

    A Canadian university teacher in Australia wrote a neat and very accurate letter about the inadvisability of resettling refugees from African wars in Australia to a local free newspaper

    http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/1153/

    Then all hell broke loose. The goodthinkful, the Toynbees and Buntings and Chakrabartis and the entire Race Relations Industry included, howled for his dismissal and this duly happened in due course

    http://www.vdare.com/sailer/050731_fraser.htm

    and

    http://www.vdare.com/sailer/050925_fraser.htm

    Well, the ninny Fraser ought to have known better; he OUGHT to have written to the press saying how an influx of Africans from Somalia and Sudan would guarantee that the Australian crime rate would be reduced sharply.

    Everyone with a working brain would have figured this out in a minute or less and duly chuckled.

    In the same way, all PP readers ought to write to their local newspaper welcoming the influx of Roma and Somalis, since we ALL know just what wonderful citizens these people are!

    PP readers might go a stage further and DEMAND in their missives to their local newspapers that their local councils make special provision for an influx of Roma, Somalis, Kosova Albanians, Kurds, Eritreans, Sudanese and other fine people who can enrich our cities, towns and villages and make them far more vibrant!

  304. justforfun — on 1st August, 2009 at 11:40 am  

    Doug

    I understand the green/leftwing agenda of the SNP and thats fine – I’ve no problem with it.

    I did not mean to imply that Asian candidates were ‘usefull’ idiots – I chose my words carefully when trying to predict the future. I did not say the SNP would turn racist, but rather I hope to say that there would be created another nationalist Scottish party (as of now non existent) that exploited racism, once independance was reached. That was my thought.

    As for the BNP not having much traction in Scotland – well perhaps because either the Scottish are less racist or perhaps British Nationalism as a message is swamped by the more immediate Scottish Nationalism as articulated by the SNP. This is a a happy consequance but I am just trying to express a view that once independance comes, things might change.

    I’ll try sometime to articulate my thoughts on why it would be good for race relations – of the coloured kind – if Britain as an entity ceased – and this false harbour of a British identity for immigrants was shown to be an unsafe anchorage. I think the best thing to happen in the last 20 years has been the re-possesing of the flag of St George by coloured sportsmen from the racists who tried to claim it as their own. It has allowed the idea of an Englishman to be based on a ‘frame of mind’ – ‘an ideal’ – an ideal that had resonance all around the world a a beacon of fair play, rule of law etc , and not on the fanciful idea of purity of genes. See you’ve got me all sentimental – anyway – have to rush – the suns out and I have to walk the dog.

    justforfun

  305. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 11:46 am  

    It is in the 3rd link in #303 above that we have the prediction that the current Australian elite will be replaced by a Chinese-ethnic-origin elite in two or three generations’ time.

    This to assume that present trends continue and we ALL know how demographic projections which guess at the procreative behaviour of the yet-to-be-born can come unstuck; the world in not over-run by immense numbers of Japanese.

    On the contrary, in 1973 Japanese wimmin cut back on giving birth so enthusiastically; by 1991 there were fewer 18-year-olds than there had been the preceding year.

    Thereafter the number of 18-year-olds fell year after succeeding year; wimmin’s two-year colleges started disappearing like torpedoed ships and suddenly Osaka International University was obliged to start accepting students with distressingly conspicuous amounts of metal in their faces.

    In the Shah’s last days, Iranians were reproducing with gusto; now the Iranian birth rate is down to European levels.

    Equally, the sober prediction that Russia will have a Muslim majority in 2050 assumes that we can guess who’ll be having how many little Alis and Hudas in 2050 and THOSE parents won’t be born before 2025.

  306. Kulvinder — on 1st August, 2009 at 1:00 pm  

    lol at 300+ replies, i suppose one more won’t make a difference

    So. Does immigration cause racism?

    Yes, but to a point its a fairly trivial assessment. The appearance of any number of people who look/eat/speak differently to what someone may consider to be ‘normal’ is likely to cause a degree of unease. But if that was the only answer; we’d have stopped asking the question a long time ago (regardless of where in the world the question was asked).

    Id dispute a ‘rise’ in the BNP but for the sake of argument the increase in nationalism in both britain and the rest of the world is less to do with ‘the foreigner’ standing over our shoulder and more to do with the actual or percieved ‘errosion’ of former identities people relied on.

    Essentially the rise in ‘globalisation’, as well as the vast increase in global communication has led to a shaking of the foundations people depended on to feel part of a community.

    As a seperate example the increase in neo-nazi sympathies in eastern europe and russia after ’91 was/is less to do with overwhelming migration (the number of immigrants compared to the native population is tiny), and more to do with the fact the nationalist and broadly cultural identity people depended on for 70 odd years – the soviet union – was swept away. Because they were no longer soviet citizens the various communities started resorting to ethno-nationalism, and irony is the vast majority of racist incidents in say russia are against people who were in the past also soviet citizens.

    The rise in ethno-nationalism is less to do with the person who looks/eats/speaks differently to you standing on the other side of the road, and more to do with a rise – or a perception in the rise – of a global homogeneity.

    You could take out all the non-white immigrants or their decendants from the country, but there would still be a reaction against, say, europe and the continental types who came here to take ‘our jobs’ – its worth remembering the recent ‘british jobs for british people’ debate centered on italian workers, not non-eu immigrants; or there’d be arguments about how europe was imposing itself on the uk etc.

    So you take Britain out of Europe and deport all the ‘non-whites’; does that constitute a victory for the BNP? Well not really, the majority of english and scottish people are in favour of a de facto end to the union. ‘British nationalism’ would have shallow foundations to say the least.

    Tne fundamental problem is that peoples preconception of who they are and how they fit in the world is being challenged – on a global level – in a way thats never been seen before. The reaction to that has been an increase in tribalism.

  307. Dalbir — on 1st August, 2009 at 4:35 pm  

    As for the BNP not having much traction in Scotland – well perhaps because either the Scottish are less racist or perhaps British Nationalism as a message is swamped by the more immediate Scottish Nationalism as articulated by the SNP. This is a a happy consequance but I am just trying to express a view that once independance comes, things might change.

    I think one thing that is commonly missing from the discussions on “Britishness” is the disproportionate sway that the English (Anglo-Saxons) have had on this construct. Historically speaking, the idea of Britishness was a method used by the English tulers to bring about some cohesion between conquered tribes in and around this island. This was something originally enforced by violence and political mechanisms which usually served to diminish the independent identity of the conquered people (read Scots and the Welsh) in favour of a more generic British one. Language was a conspicuous casualty in this battle.

    Despite resistance to the notion of Britishness as English domination, these people eventually succumbed. Movements such as the SNP and patriotic Welsh movements are, to my mind, modern attempts to shake off the cultural and political influence of the Anglos, which has been in sway for many centuries now.

    The scenario highlighted above is interesting because, if the trajectory of the independence of the other tribes on this island continues, we have yet to see what they make of the immigration that they may perceive as encouraged through policies in London by an Anglo dominated cabinet to address perceived labour shortages. There may well be a rise in racism in a more independent Wales and Scotland as the immigrants are seen as the remnants of English actions.

    That being said, personal anecdotal evidence (which may well be wrong) points at different relationships between some Scots and immigrants compared to the English. In my own life I have met a few Sikhs from Scotland who proudly proclaim to be Scottish but have never met such a person born and raised in England claiming to be English. British yes, but English no. Does this point at differing relationships between subcommunities? I don’t know.

  308. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 4:53 pm  

    Does Edsa [European Democratic Socialist Assembly*] honestly feel that whities / whiteys ought not to have colonised the Americas and the Antipodes?

    True, Algeria had to be abandoned and South Africa is in the process of going down the drain just like Rhodesia is, but the Americas and the Antipodes are brilliant successes.

    Andrew Jackson, that true frontiersman, understood this perfectly:

    http://www.snowwowl.com/histandrewjackson.html

    Scroll down to the 4th paragraph of Andrew Jackson’s Second Annual Message. Commit it to memory.

    On another tack altogether, it seems – seems – possible that the Mr Beans in charge of that Oxymoron, British Intelligence, may – may – have been
    recruiting altogether the wrong kind of – er – Pakistani-origin chaps:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027086.php

    Is this the stuff of Ortonesque comedy?

  309. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 4:55 pm  

    * How many Euros does EDSA consume a year?

    Are the Kinnocks involved, or Lord Mandelstein?

  310. Kulvinder — on 1st August, 2009 at 5:33 pm  

    In my own life I have met a few Sikhs from Scotland who proudly proclaim to be Scottish but have never met such a person born and raised in England claiming to be English.

    Hello

  311. Dalbir — on 1st August, 2009 at 5:38 pm  

    So you consider yourself English Kulvinder?

  312. Kulvinder — on 1st August, 2009 at 5:41 pm  

    yes

  313. Dalbir — on 1st August, 2009 at 5:56 pm  

    Okay, your the first I’ve encountered. I presume there are more.

    Ethnically do you not relate yourself to any Panjabi identity? I am making the presumption that you have Panjabi roots.

    You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.

  314. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 6:05 pm  

    ETHNICITY AND CRIME IN AUSTRALIA

    Surprises galore here! Those smiling happy-go-lucky Pacific Islanders seem to have taken to home invasions and carjacking with great glee.

    This is from the original source, reached through AMERICAN RENAISSANCE, of course:

    http://www.theherald.com.au/blogs/jeff-corbett/unconditional-welcome/1580461.aspx

    Anyone got the figures for the U.K. ?

  315. Dalbir — on 1st August, 2009 at 6:36 pm  

    Edna

    That is rich as a significant proportion of the whites in Austrailia are descendents of criminals from these very shores.

    Even if they have criminal types from abroad (i.e. the immigrants), the whole Aussie experience points at them becoming normal citizens over a few generations.

    What about the white hypocrisy in actually sitting in Aboriginal land and going on like you own the place?

  316. Edsa — on 1st August, 2009 at 7:10 pm  

    Edna, the wise one, is getting a bit silly now. She dismisses Algeria and Rhodesia as failed states – do you know, Edna dear, that the French have been terrorising the Algerians since 1830 and killed over a million before granting them independence? And the Brits ruled Rhodesia as an apartheid state for some 100 years, sucking it dry?
    Why, oh why,don’t these Euros stay at home and enjoy their great civilisation? Edna says “the Americas and the Antipodes are brilliant successes.” Success for whom? Not to the natives holocausted in the millions and the rest hearded into reservations?

    Think of the victims, Edna, for a change. Why don’t the Anglos of North America and Aussieland return to their green and pleasant land for good and leave the natives to wallow in their own miseary?

  317. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 7:12 pm  

    Dalbir #315

    If you go to the Oz site and see what the contributors down there in the billabongs and sheep pens have to say, at least one makes precisely that point.

    However, every Aussie with an ancestor who allegedly sailed aboard the First Fleet will assure you that s/he was sent off to Botany Bay as the result of an unfortunate misunderstanding about the ownership of a loaf of bread.

    Historians have established that those transported were often convicted of far more exciting and enterprising crimes but – as any Leftie from Sydney would assure you – English trade unionists and Irish nationalists were among those who were the founding fathers and mothers of Australia.

    There is nothing to be said about Aboriginals and white settlement that has not been said 1,000 times already by the well-informed and the totally ignorant alike.

    We need not rake over the cinders yet again.

  318. Edna Welthorpe — on 1st August, 2009 at 7:47 pm  

    Edsa is happy that people of European descent have abandoned, or are currently in the process of abandoning, Algiers, Bougie, Cape Town and Salisbury to those people whose ancestors were there first.

    What else does Edsa desire? That people of European stock should abandon all of the Americas, all of the Antipodes and all of Russia East of the Urals?

    Concerning Australi and its identity, here are two links. One is hard and dull reading, the other is all too clear and easy:

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/jonjayray/fraser.html

    and

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/18/1050172755776.html

    All goodthinkful people are of the opinion that Australia really needs more Afghans, Somalis and Sudanese!

  319. Dalbir — on 1st August, 2009 at 8:01 pm  

    Edna #316

    If you go to the Oz site and see what the contributors down there in the billabongs and sheep pens have to say, at least one makes precisely that point.

    Just one! The rest of the bastards must be taking the piss then. Blind tossers.

    However, every Aussie with an ancestor who allegedly sailed aboard the First Fleet will assure you that s/he was sent off to Botany Bay as the result of an unfortunate misunderstanding about the ownership of a loaf of bread.

    You know, apparently in prison it is a well know maxim that every prisoner is innocent….

    Historians have established that those transported were often convicted of far more exciting and enterprising crimes but – as any Leftie from Sydney would assure you – English trade unionists and Irish nationalists were among those who were the founding fathers and mothers of Australia.

    I know, whitey just can’t stop telling porky pies. It seems to be an innate quality. They are fair, nice and civilised always……don’t you know!

    There is nothing to be said about Aboriginals and white settlement that has not been said 1,000 times already by the well-informed and the totally ignorant alike. We need not rake over the cinders yet again.

    Not nearly enough has been said. If it had been, ignorant white people would keep a bit more quiet about “da foreigners taking ova da land.” Maybe not, perhaps the concept of shame and conscience is foreign to them?

    Again whitey can’t do anything wrong. Those darky bastards hit the jackpot when they whiteman landed in New Zealand, Aus, SA, US etc. Look at how well the indigenous people are doing there as a result! Fully represented and involved in the political decisions made. Living in affluent, plush surroundings. Dark people are so fucking lucky to have whitey take over their lands…….ungrateful sods.

  320. damon — on 1st August, 2009 at 8:09 pm  

    I’d have thought the ”British or English” question was about 20 years out of date. Why not English?
    Do teenagers of minority ethnic backgrounds have more in common with the people who live around them in English towns and cities, or with some Scottish Highlander or Welsh speaking person?

    As for Scotland, it’s full of Unionists/Loyalists.

    I remember when I lived there for a while, that the SNP said they welcomed anyone who lived in Scotland ”and was committed to Scotland”.
    So what they make of Azeem Ibrahim I don’t know.

    Thankfully we don’t get too much of this down south:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH6shdYaxqA&feature=PlayList&p=EE0150A9684E3A39&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=49

    Or this (thank God)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv_l2hgX9wM

    Immigration certainly increases diversity. And I guess, diversity politics too.

    To me that isn’t necessarily a good thing, because that politics often leads into this kind of identity cul-de-sac.
    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=18350792

  321. Kulvinder — on 1st August, 2009 at 10:23 pm  

    Ethnically do you not relate yourself to any Panjabi identity? I am making the presumption that you have Panjabi roots.

    Why should i mind answering?

    Presuming you’re talking about ‘ethnically’ in the some vague ‘blood relation’ sense id say Jatt not Punjabi; if you want to be even more specific we could take this to the level of pinds.

    That said im no fan of ‘self identification’ via birth right; i prefer to choose who i am.

  322. Boyo — on 2nd August, 2009 at 7:29 am  

    “Following the Bible injunctions, European marauders have declared grabbing land and killing natives as a godly quest….”

    Er… Islamic Conquest, anyone?

  323. Boyo — on 2nd August, 2009 at 7:30 am  

    Is Edna Welthorpe Munir’s Mr Hyde in drag?

  324. Dalbir — on 2nd August, 2009 at 8:54 am  

    Presuming you’re talking about ‘ethnically’ in the some vague ‘blood relation’ sense id say Jatt not Punjabi; if you want to be even more specific we could take this to the level of pinds.

    Okay, so let me get this right. You are an English Jatt pindu?

    That said im no fan of ’self identification’ via birth right; i prefer to choose who i am.

    That’s cool. Self identification is a serious freedom.

  325. Kulvinder — on 2nd August, 2009 at 11:33 am  

    Okay, so let me get this right. You are an English Jatt pindu?

    If you want we can add regional identities to that.

  326. Edna Welthorpe — on 2nd August, 2009 at 2:24 pm  

    News from Australia:

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25865080_2702,00.html

    enjoy

  327. Edna Welthorpe — on 2nd August, 2009 at 2:38 pm  

    Aplogies – the link to THE AUSTRALIAN is no good so here is the report as retold by the ungoodthinkful folk:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/027088.php

    Nice to see that awful Keysar Trad getting a good smack!

  328. Boyo — on 2nd August, 2009 at 4:04 pm  

    Oh I see, Edna Welthorpe was Joe Orton’s inveterate letter writer, so is actually a gay white male from Islington.

    Figures.

  329. Dalbir — on 2nd August, 2009 at 8:49 pm  

    If you want we can add regional identities to that.

    As in I am an English Doaban Jatt Pindu? lol

    Give it a go, sounds fun. lol

  330. Edna Welthorpe — on 2nd August, 2009 at 9:27 pm  

    #328 Boyo – Look for one Edna W. on yahoo and see her review of the Orton Diaries

    No link – you have to do a bit of looking but the result will prove worthwhile

    NOSOTROS LOS GRINGOS UNIDOS
    JAMAS SERAMOS VENCIDOS !

  331. Kulvinder — on 3rd August, 2009 at 1:39 am  

    As in I am an English Doaban Jatt Pindu? lol

    I meant regional english identities, or even sub-regional ones if you want to make this – for example – a north of the river or south of the river issue; but yeah its a vast patchwork quilt of an identity and i wouldn’t have it any other way.

  332. Carmenego — on 3rd August, 2009 at 12:00 pm  

    #319 Dalbir

    Well said! :-)

  333. Dalbir — on 3rd August, 2009 at 3:45 pm  

    It took the Irish in Britain well over two generations to stop living and behaving like savages;

    Whereas the British continued to live like savages for centuries after first arriving in Ireland.

    Edna mate. I can’t believe you had the audacity to post that! Have you been to an average English majority town on a Friday night out?

    The drunken violence, the scantilly clad promiscious wimmin and the general behaviour is hardly the epitome of civilisation is it now…….

    Pots, kettles and all that.

  334. Dalbir — on 3rd August, 2009 at 3:57 pm  

    I meant regional english identities, or even sub-regional ones if you want to make this – for example – a north of the river or south of the river issue; but yeah its a vast patchwork quilt of an identity and i wouldn’t have it any other way.

    You sure you’re not trying too hard Kulvinder?

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