=>”Perhaps the best British identity would come about as a result of trying to be decent human beings.”

You’ve hit the nail on the head, my friend. Ultimately, this is what is should be all about.

However, if the concepts involved here needed to be formally defined (or summarised), it wouldn’t hurt to have a British version of those American documents I mentioned earlier (adapted as deemed appropriate), or the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Just to have something concrete for people to refer to and to encapsulate fundamental British ideals — nothing too pedantic or rambling, just the basics.

This is an excellent website for anyone interested in taking a look at the famous US “core” documents — very inspiring stuff, too:

http://www.usconstitution.net/

Typo: should say “state youR case”

Regarding the Empire, it’s not a question of its (actual or perceived) good points. It’s much more basic than that — it’s about people from a foreign power taking over the country of your ancestors and forcibly subjugating them (and yes I know that many Indians were also complicit in this, we don’t need to have an extended debate about that here).

If the descendents of both parties concerned — which means all of us here — put this event into the box of “ancient history”, are honest about both its positive and negative points, but are much more concerned with the here-and-now, then that is a more constructive way forward. However, if one party insists on trumpetting the perceived benefits of the invasion and conquest, and expects the other party to amicably agree, then it will be a case of the unstoppable force hitting the immoveable object and there is no way it will encourage any kind of unity or goodwill. The opposite will happen. This is human nature. Nobody wants to feel as though they are the descendents of a “conquered group” (and are regarded as such by their fellow citizens), especially if the nation-state who did the subjugation still exists(therefore comparisons to the Romans, Normans etc cannot be made). Forcible aggression against another party for unwarranted reasons (ie. unless it is for self-defence or to protect a third-group against unwarranted attack) is morally unacceptable, regardless of whether it happens on an individual level or a much larger international scale, and regardless of the excuses or the alleged knock-on benefits.

=>”Again, what uniquely British qualities are there, shared by no other nation and that no other nation could possibly have, that deserve to be praised? If the UK is “fundamentally about certain [unspecified] high-minded ideals and principles”, what are other nations fundamentally about?”

It’s not an “exclusivist” scenario or one aiming for British “supremacy” over other nations in this regard. If the UK is regarded as standing for certain humanitarian ideals, there is absolutely no reason why other nations should not also stand for these principles themselves (or be aspiring to them). It’s all about finding a common ground and, ultimately and ideally, about the well-being of the human race as a whole. The concept is certainly not about developing or encouraging some kind of jingoistic superiority complex over the rest of the planet.

=>”Is it our British duty to stop other nations trying to have these principles because theyt’re ours and ours alone,”

Of course not. See above.

=>”or are we supposed to force them to gratefully accept them as every proper nation ought to have them?”

Again, one should not force anyone to accept any such thing. You can set a high standard, state you case, and serve as a role model for others to (hopefully) aspire to, but you cannot impose this on anyone else by force.

On a more serious note, the above is a good point and certainly a major reason for the discomfort amongst many older-generation Asians in particular when it comes to the concept of identifying themselves as “British”. It’s a little less prevalent amongst younger Asians these days (obviously varies according to the individual’s social circle and location), at least compared to how such people used to feel about such matters.

It’s the historical colonial baggage which can be a stumbling block. If being “British” predominantly involves a core set of noble-minded ideals, then — assuming the ideals are sound, humanitarian, and fair-minded — I think it would be easier for people of all backgrounds to rally around this.

However, if being “British” is also deemed to be intricately tied into the imperial history — and this history is not only taught in schools (as it should be) but is also glorified — then there will understandably be some reticence and (metaphorical) schizophrenia on the part of immigrant communities about identifying themselves as British along with the related values, because their own ancestors were amongst the “conquered” peoples (in many cases, still within living memory).

In any case, as I mentioned, it will be more attractive for people to “come together” and be proud of regarding themselves as British first and foremost if being British — and indeed the UK as a country — was regarded as being fundamentally about certain high-minded ideals and principles, rather than just a geographical location (in the same vein as the US aspires to be, as based on some aspects of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution etc).

…..Probably a US management consultancy who will end up offshoring the project to their colleagues in India

lol

Haha! True, but knowing their current rate of incompetence they’ll take 15 years to produce one.

Thanks for all your points. I want to write another point about how we can empower everyone (not just the Asian folk) to build a better sense of Britishness. Someone on CIF called a misty-eyed revolutionary! Haha!

personally i would say its nothing to do with nationality – just who happens to be around in a society.

one of my main peeves about so-called democracy is that it seems to limit itself to ‘only citizens’ can vote – and nowadays – a lot of people arent citizens of where they live. so what -they then don’t count?

seems to me that needs updating. luckily here in britain i can vote – despite not being a citizen!! yeah

@ Sonia, yeah despite my half hearted dissenting on the issue I think you (and Sunny) might be onto something with that…

emphasis on shared!

i thought that was Sunny’s point anyway

the thing is that if people carry on harping on the ‘british’ value its tempting to dredge up the colonial past. and who exactly is that going to make look good!!

Justforfun