jay: I don’t have an exact link but here is a radio show I heard on the subject http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/thebattleforinfluence/pip/4jbtt/

..in Sri Lanka, we have a heterogenous group of Muslims that prefer not to define themselves as Sinhala/Tamil; they call themselves Muslims and put their ethnic heritage on the backburner.

I’ve also known a number of mixed-race Asian/White people who converted from a non-religious background to radical Islam. I personally thought the ‘defining’ lifestyle and global philosophy had something to do with it.

=>”Reformist muslim has said that muslims in the US are much better economically. Isn’t it because the US
model is a melting-pot?”

Not necessarily; it has a lot to do with their immigration policies, which are slightly different to that of the UK.

However, there may also be some intrinsic societal/cultural factors within the US which results in Muslims there attaining higher incomes/standards of living, although perhaps someone actually residing in the US (or with a significant degree of interaction with Muslims there) would be a better person to comment on that.

I agree with a lot that has been written here, but I would like to stress that part of the problem is multiculturism itself, which doesn’t pressure communities to integrate into the mainstream culture.

Reformist muslim has said that muslims in the US are much better economically. Isn’t it because the US
model is a melting-pot? In South America (Venezuela) where I lived during my childhood years, we would be indistinguishable from the rest, no concept of minority or whatsoever.

but it doesn’t really work out that way, as far as ive experienced. in theory maybe, and possibly for people in a certain context. its not as if all muslims ‘all truly’ consider themselves the same with no consideration to ethnic divisions – oh no. i can’t comment on the situation in Britain – not being british and not having grown up here, but certainly, in the other continents i’ve lived in – nope. after all, in countries where muslims are a majority, people take that commonality for granted, then look for further differences to distinguish themselves.

the 1971 conflict and its fallout is a good example – i dont see many bengalis going around thinking ah my pakistani ‘brothers’ we have so much in common with you cos you’re muslims. quite the opposite! { sidenote on that – its interesting to see how ‘allegiances’ change as the context changes. the war on terror seems to be making a change to this dynamic slightly – need to think more about this..)

which i guess is typical! we humans like to focus on differences rather than commonalities or so it would appear!

It does and it doesn’t – there are some issues in which a generic approach makes perfect sense or, at least, does little or nothing to devalue the overall debate, while other issues require an approach that more explicitly recognises granular differences between communities.

Classifications need to make sense within the context in which they’re used or they all to easily become either meaningless or misleading.

Do you have stats on the ethnicity of the Muslims in prison?

Why do so many prisoners convert to Islam?

raz

It does get ridiculous but at the same time it annoys me when basic errors are made – for example describing a gurdwara as a mosque as happens in newspapers occasionally, these things need to be corrected.

I was writing about something similar in my blog..did you know 10% of the UK prison population is Muslim? But a significant number of them are actually reverts who discovered the faith in prison and quite few are in reality of an Asian background…

And where to stop? Should Punjabi/Sindhi Pakistanis in the UK protest about being grouped together with Mirpuris? Should Bangladeshis from Dhaka refuse to be classified with those from Syhlet? It gets silly after a while.

It’s going to depend on the specific religion of the individual and the culture of the majority community that the person is attempting to function in. There are going to be different dynamics between a conservative Pakistani Muslim trying to work in London and a conservative Pakistani Muslim trying to work in Riyadh, for example.

It’s not necessarily the religion itself which is the root of the problem, but the capacity of the adherent to effectively interact with the wider group consisting of people from a different background and who possibly possess different ideas and ways of social conduct (team-mates and, if appropriate, clients/customers/patients etc etc).

Plus the adherent’s personal interpretation of his/her religion, and the compatibility of his/her behaviour resulting from this interpretation with the requirements of the broader working environment and social group, are also major factors.

The more established patrons are still thinking of returning abroad. The second/third generation aren’t necessarily of that mindset.

We need to think *how* we’re going to approach a generation more secular than the last, whilst not sidelining those who prefer a more conservative outlook.

It’s not a simple question of ‘When in Rome?’ for the deprived communities; it’s a question of integration and encouragement of educational aspirations, something deprived families of all races may find to be a financial stretch too far.

Very often used here on PP as well. I think I heard a Radio 4 programme devoted to the whole issue. Could even be another post/thread.

The correlations that do exist are therefore far more granular and complex than the reductionist argument that Ravi correctly highlights as obscuring more than it reveals – there will be marked differences between a Turkish Muslim community, which comes to broadlly trading/mercantile culture which values education, entrepreneurship, etc. and a Mirpuri or Sylheti community whose background is largely rural/agrarian.

To a considerable extent one of broad problems in understanding such issues, in this country, is the tendency of mainstream British society to deal in unhelpful ‘generics’ – terms like ‘Asian’, ‘Muslim’, ‘Indian’ etc can easily serve as barriers to understanding, particularly amongst policy-makers, as they mask the real degree of diversity to be found in minority communities and encourage well-intentioned but often futile ‘one size fits all’ solutions which simply don’t work.

incidentally who’s spending their time figuring out the correlation ( if any..) between why ‘chavs’, burberry and not ‘making it out of council housing’ and not going to university?

apart from the people i work with..