more point scoring inanity

While I appreciate your need to believe in medieval theories of gods and stuff, some of us have evolved beyond the point of needing retarded religions that we follow to the point of absurdity while viewing non-believers as second-class citizens.

YOU people are the problem. You make my world, which could be beautiful, much worse.

sonia @ 57: You realise that if we have this discussion, it will end up being about the size of a PHD chapter (and consume as much time and effort).

To answer your question – “If you could share with us how you see us not prescribe human attributes to God, I’d be very interested.” – I will start from my position and lay out my point of view, so once again, do not take this as a generalisation of any sort.

First of all, the main position for Islam is that God is NOT a person. No matter how much we want to ascribe human qualities to Him, there are many verses in the Quran which remind us that He is something we cannot conceive – an entity that is infinite. You specifically raise the 99 Names of Allah. If you examine them, you will see they are not all emotional constructs, and in all cases they imply a level of power that humans cannot imagine. While you are correct that we view the world and abstracts through a human-emotional lens, the language in Al-Quran and the 99 Names etc. is particular in pointing out what the relationship between Creator and created is.

The second part of your argument seems to be more confused – why does God need us? You are right, He doesn’t. Where has it ever been said the God needs us? You seem to be hovering on one of those “What is the meaning of life” questions. Well its not “42″ and if you ask me…well, that is not part of this discussion.

Your third argument concerning anthromorphism would pretty much negate any form of quantification of abstract/super-normal concepts since the start of history. I can see where you are coming from though, and I am sorry to say that nothing is that black and white.

But Perhaps you mean the MCB who makes its Muslim-ness its business, or the “we are muslims therefore we think this…brigade” ought to be the ones saying we support the british trooops?

anyway what does ‘support’ mean? do people really think in terms of i am ‘in favour’ of you/’against’ you ??? (unless they’re actually in a war and you ‘supporting’ someone means you’re not going to kill them?)

The core problem: why in allegedly sophisticated 21st century human organised groups who have been legitimized as nation-states cannot expect/do not ‘aim to’ to get along without resorting to violence. When within the nation-state ‘boundary’ we are expected to get along without recourse to violence, and do not have ‘standing’ armies. We have a police force, which is different.

Humans perhaps should not attribute human characteristics to “God” – but theistic religion certainly seems to encourage it. Across the board. this is very central (i think) to why religious mythologies developed and the psychological significance.

Any characteristic we can really “understand” generally appears to be those we apply to describe humans. is that then a ‘human’ characteristic? I refer to 99 names for Allah, the ‘merciful’ the ‘compassionate’ – the fact that we ‘understand’ these names as representing values (those values we would like to see in ‘good’ humans) – suggests to me that they are ‘human values’: to us anyway. Wrath, anger, love, mercy, kindness - these are all human – as in we experience them. Obviously so might other supernatural beings or creatures, (we don’t know_) but my point is we view it through our human lens.

Also:(as someone pointed out to me the other day in a cafe): needing to ‘improve’ on your message throughout the centuries, sending ‘edits’ down to your books – seems a particularly human attribute! First favouring one tribe, telling them they’re the chosen one, then someone else, then someone else – what’s that? sounds a lot like a human leader playing divide and conquer, who kisses my ass best gets into least trouble. Highly human kind of logic if you ask me – and placing qualities we see in our human rulers and attributing them to ‘God’. . Why is God who created the universe – dependent on our worship and our gratitude? The only reason i can see if we think God is like a human leader or benefactor – who demands something back from us. What can we possibly give to God? why do we even factor ourselves in the equation? We may be ‘humbled’ by thinking about Creator/God, we may resolve to do something because it has inspired us, but to imagine we make any kind of difference to a Creator, is certainly self-centred and somewhat arrogant as a species (for us humans i mean)

so in the end, theism seems to end up not being able to avoid being anthropomorphic..it gets confused because it tries to say you can’t understand God, yet seeks to – in human language, using human constructs (naturally, otherwise how can we understand?) if it’s that mystical, let’s leave ‘god’ as a mystical, metaphysical ‘unknowable’ concept (more like pantheism) but then you can’t have your cake and eat it (god isn’t going to be writing messages to you saying he’s angry if you don’t do this, happy if you do that, will let you into heaven if you worship him, he’ll be jealous if you won’t…etc. so on and so forth) All that sounds frightfully human and sycophantic to me. (from the point of view of the worshipper that is)

Of course it’s no surprise to me that humans would create such an elaborate leader to ‘placate’.. but then saying we don’t clothe God with human attributes seems a bit absurd to me. Surely people must see this. Either we do or we don’t.

I can see why it would be so satisfying to have a personal relationship/idea that we have some connection to the most Powerful one who created the world (after all, we’d all like Obama to be following us on Twitter)

If you could share with us how you see us not prescribe human attributes to God, I’d be very interested.

Regarding what you were taught in church when you were 10, I think there is such a huge difference in being prescribed a religion, and going out there and finding it for yourself. The entire answer is seldom completely found in one place, and even then, it requires a lot of thought.

Here is another take on your Q/A:

Q: Why did God make you?
A: God made me to know Him [by learning how this world is made and by applying this knowledge in the best way possible], to love Him [ by appreciating the fortune He gave me in making me one of the lucky few members of humanity who have enough to eat and drink and shelter - and by trying to help those who do not]…etc.

As you can see, the basics take you only so far. In Islam the act of worship is inextricably linked with the teaching.

Anyway, I do not deign to speak in any authoratative manner – simply putting forward my point of view.

Like Keith says about the constant need to tell this god how much we worship him.

I remember being taught the catholic Catechism at about 10 years old, and I couldn’t really accept this bit:

”Q. Why did God make you?
A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven. ”

I thought that he must be very conceited to have made us for that reason.

In response to your post, there are a few comments I would like to make which are purely my opinion:

You WILL miss most of the Philosophy of Islam if you (a) go straight into it cold and (b) in English. If you are truly sincere about discovering more about the religion, you will need to take your questions to a well-versed imam, or a very devout (and wise) practicing muslim. Islam is not something that can only be understood by reading the Koran. Without observing its practice, you will derive very little benefit.

Islam is a religion of action and interaction. It would be difficult, if not impossible to sit in isolation and understand the philosophy of Islam. It is true that the language seems contradictory at first, but to me that is the beauty of it. The challenge of attaining the truth through interpretation while you try and absorb the whole message, piecing together the context of different verses etc.

Because whitey says so? Fuck that.

50

It hardly needs saying that if British troops pulled out of the middle east it would have a huge impact on the UK.

The whole raison d’etre of the ‘terrorist’ would of course disappear unless you think they would carry on bombing which I doubt.
If they did we’d have far greater resources in terms of manpower and finance to deal with the situation here

What kind of peace are we talking about here?

How would that peace impact on the UK?

BNP want a withdrawal of forces from Afghanistan.

No other mainstream party is supporting this.

Anyone who wants peace in the area should support Nick’s efforts.

“If it was the same Supreme that created more Galaxies than there are grains of sand on the Earth(Fact)then you would expect producing an organised book (in every language) would not be a problem.”

“I also feel that God would not create a situation where hundreds of hangers on are needed to interpret his word… One of the essentials of being a God is surely that you can make yourself clear. I am also not convinced that the Divine would be so full of self aggrandisement as to require such constant worshipping”

Case closed I’d say. Religion exposes Man’s inability to express Divine reality, whatever that may be. Instead we graft on our own pathetic prejudices to the inexpressible.

Abraham, Jesus and Mo certainly gave it a go, but each clearly failed in their own way. It was then down to every other “human, all too human” to twist their insight for purely selfish purposes and use God as an excuse for their pathetic prejudices.

That’s why I despise the exploitation of others in the name of any religion (or religiously-inspired act, like the war in Iraq). The only religions that work for me are Quakers (who keep their mouths shut), Buddhists, and Unitarians.

Munir – as a liberator of Kosovo, I’d like to express my thanks for your appreciation. But I don’t understand how on one hand you can complain that Muslims in Britain are being seen as Muslims first, then complain soley about wars that affect Muslims?

I don’t get why as a Muslim I have to come out and publicly mourn the death of these soldiers. I feel sorry that there are soldiers out there dying for an unjust cause. I feel empathy when there are children left behind who will not grow up without a father. It is unfortunate they died, but they are soldiers. You’d be pretty darn stupid joining up thinking getting popped wasn’t part of the risk.

I just don’t get why I have to come out and say sorry every time there is a suicide bombing? Or an act of terrorism?

Damon – I think that’s probably true.

Keith – do you mind trying line and paragraph breaks? Just makes it easier to read.

Its the alternative career minded minions who will swing anyway the prevailing mood as expressed by the tabloids swings. And look where its taken the country.

People do want clarity and integrity from their MPs. That is probably the only thing the electorate has come to accept from Westminster.

As for conscience v. wants of the constituents, Jeremy Corbyn was wholeheartedly supported in his stance against the Iraq war. And the other wars.

I too have often wondered if The Almighty has a touch of low self esteem as, certainly in the Abrahamic faiths, he needs to be reassured of his greatness on a regular basis.