Taking on the BNP’s arguments (at City Circle)


by Sunny
30th June, 2009 at 5:18 am    

Right, a quick report from Friday’s even at City Circle, where I was talking with Salma Yaqoob from Respect and Fiyaz Mughal (Libdem Cllr and from Faith Matters).

I started by pointing out that I was not going to play to the gallery. I knew Salma would do that anyway and frankly I prefer to put counter-arguments to an audience than try and appeal to them. In other words I hadn’t gone there to make friends.

I said there were three strands to tackling the BNP:
1) Continual demonisation and pointing out their past and present activities
2) Organising and mobilising against them – urged people to volunteer for Hope Not Hate.
3) Taking on the issue of identity and culture that the BNP use to win votes.

After mentioning first and second briefly I went on to focus on the third. I said the rise of the BNP was not merely down to economic inequality and lack of social housing, though that was also an integral issue. It is also down to the fact that an increasing number of white people that they have nothing in common with ethnic minorities. Much of this discomfort is down to immigration and globalisation and movement of peoples – but nevertheless it is a problem of a lack of a shared identity.

My view is that the left has to develop a response to this problem of shared identity. There has to be an inclusive narrative and language which binds people together. I used the example of Obama and pointed out that in his speech on race – he pointedly appreciated the concerns of white people as well as blacks, and yet gave them a narrative that appealed to the best of both. We have problems on both sides, in other words, but this doesn’t mean we should be reduced to fighting each other.

That was the gist of my argument. In between, I also had a go at the Respect party (which I got bogged down into and drew heckles from the audience) and accused it of communalism. Apparently that isn’t true! Some Respect lackey sitting in the audience accused me of pandering to the BNP and accused me of trying to smear the Respect party. No honestly, these people do still exist. The fact that Respect is now a burnt-out train crash has apparently escaped their notice. Oh well.

I also pointed out that the media jumped on isolated examples of asylum seekers being given council housing or that sometimes money was given to specific ethnic or religious groups, and all this fed the BNP. This is a statement of fact, except the Respect lackey took it as sign that I was echoing this view. I did however state that I think civic groups only belonging to one ethnic/religious minority, or that catered for only one ethnic/religious minority, should be not funded. I said this didn’t apply to the Southall Black Sisters. (I should also point out that I think this also means groups that end up catering for whites only should re-examine their procedures).

Anyway, my main point was about identity. Some guy stood up and said he regarded his British passport as a Blockbuster card. I said this was exactly my problem – that people didn’t feel they had any sort of affinity to this country or to each other as citizens.

I am no longer happy to accept that the problem of the BNP is merely an economic one. I’ve been arguing for the Britishness agenda for a while. And though this govt has totally failed to make a positive, inclusive case with that, it doesn’t mean its impossible. Unfortunately it seems some self-proclaimed defenders of minorities plan to stand in my way. Oh well – that’s their loss.

I’ll write more about the identity issue later. I’ve not covered everything in the debate obviously. But I made the points I wanted to make.


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  1. pickles

    New blog post: Taking on the BNP’s arguments (at City Circle) http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5000




  1. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:48 am  

    Britishness or Englishness? What do you think of the idea floated by guys like Paul Kingsnorth and others about developing a civic English identity, rather than a British one?

    I’m not quite sure how you intend to “develop” an identity – I would like some concrete examples of how you would do this please. The problem is, the government is always trying to create some kind of artificial identity and impose it from upon high on people who either don’t want it or don’t give a shit.

  2. cjcjc — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:59 am  

    I don’t get up much later than you go to bed!!

    Assume in para 7 line 6 you mean “should *not* be funded” ?

  3. Shatterface — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:50 am  

    Britishness can’t be prescriptive, it has to rest on self-identification. That means having a stake in Britain: jobs, benefits for those between jobs or unable to work and a genuinely participatory democracy in which we have OUR Government, not just THE Government.

    That means devolution of power to local councils so that people recognise a shared interest in local affairs rather than identifying themselves with a particular ethnic group which is geographically dispersed.

  4. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 8:29 am  

    As the ‘Respect lackey’ in question, can I say I not interested misrepresenting you. I am concerned about arguments that give succor to racists, and my account specifically focuses on that angle:

    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=4301

    If you think not ‘playing to the gallery’ entails echoing BNP style arguments about ‘white groups’ suffering from unfair community funding, ‘besieged white identity’ and, bizarrely, appearing more exercised about George Galloway and the MCB, than you do about Nick Griffiths, you deserve to be criticized.

    One of the few things you said on the night I did agree with was that public speaking is not your forte. You made a haphazard and at times incoherent speech, with some quite reactionary undertones, whether you meant to or not. In future, perhaps think a bit more before you speak.

  5. Shamit — on 30th June, 2009 at 8:41 am  

    Sunny

    Excellent argument especially about the Britishness agenda.

    I agree with your arguments but I am still wondering how did that particular talk fest help us combat BNP?

  6. andy newman — on 30th June, 2009 at 8:51 am  

    So Sunny, is you think that money shuld not be given to BME and faith groups, are you arguing that there should be a withdrawl of support for BME led initiatives designed to oversome institutional racism and promote social inclusuion?

  7. Bob — on 30th June, 2009 at 9:22 am  

    “I did however state that I think civic groups only belonging to one ethnic/religious minority, or that catered for only one ethnic/religious minority, should be funded.”
    Do you mean “should NOT be funded”?

    (Myself, I think the default should be to fund initiatives used by more than one group, but that this should not be an absolute rule. On a case by case basis, local authorities need to be clear on the ethical reasons for funding single group initiatives.

    I also agree that funding that effectively goes to whites only groups (and I have seen this in some tenant group contexts) needs to be looked at carefully. Somehow, de facto self-segregation by whites avoids the community cohesion police.)

  8. cjcjc — on 30th June, 2009 at 9:33 am  

    @4

    I see.
    So the Respect (do they still exist?) strategy is to stick your fingers in your ears while at the same time shouting insults.

    Are the “reactionary undertones” Feargal Sharkey’s evil twins?

  9. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 9:50 am  

    Well done Sunny.

    I see you have provoked the ire of the Islamist-Far Left nexus. Good. You should regard that as a positive sign.

    According to some idiot called Ger Francis on SocialistUnity.com, repeating the call that RESPECT is communalist is a “smear”. That says everything about their politics. If RESPECT is not communalist then the BNP is not racist.

    Southasian communities must join together into an inclusive notion of nationhood to form an inter-racial, inter-religious and inter-community response to tackling the BNP. This won’t be achieved by following the divisive, polarising tactics of RESPECT and the Far Left.

  10. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 11:30 am  

    ‘Southasian communities must join together into an inclusive notion of nationhood’

    By most people’s understanding of the term ‘nationhood’ Muslims certainly pass the ‘test’. According to one Gallup poll whereas only half of the UK population identifies itself as very strongly British, 77% of UK Muslims do:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/may/07/muslim-survey-integration

    But what if Muslims have anti-war views? Do they fail your nationhood tests if they believe the Palestinians, for example, have the right to wage armed struggle to resist oppression?

    I think it would help if Sunny and friends could actually come out and openly explain how they think they BNP is best challenged.

    I certainly don’t think anti-racism is furthered by pandering to an argument which locates the appeal of the BNP in the fact that British Muslims are just a bit too Muslim, bemoans the fact they are not a bit more ‘moderate’, and wishes they had a little less solidarity with other Muslims suffering oppression across the globe. (Something you probably will dismiss as ‘victimhood’ although not a charge that would have ever been levelled at black communities here who supported the anti-apartheid struggle.)

    Be very careful where the anti-Islamisation argument can lead:

    http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/05/26/how-anti-islamisation-is-uniting-the-european-far-right/

    As regards the smear of communalism, it is easy to throw it around on the web, try saying in front of a public audience, where you can be challenged and have to substantiate. Sunny did, and couldn’t. There is no political figure in Birmingham who would dare to publicly make this charge against Salma Yaqoob for the reason that it is simply rubbish.

    ‘Are the “reactionary undertones” Feargal Sharkey’s evil twins?’

    Nice one. I saw them live in their pomp. Great band.

  11. Sunny — on 30th June, 2009 at 12:38 pm  

    Britishness or Englishness? What do you think of the idea floated by guys like Paul Kingsnorth and others about developing a civic English identity, rather than a British one?

    I think British is a political identity, Englishness will take longer to develop as a local civic identity. Will explain more later.

    Yes, I meant “not funded”, sorry!

    are you arguing that there should be a withdrawl of support for BME led initiatives designed to oversome institutional racism and promote social inclusuion?

    That’s too general andy. I think unless there are services specifically needed by ethnic minorities who cannot access mainstream services, then there’s a problem.

    The best way of promoting inclusion is through education – which is the state’s role. Can you offer any examples of orgs?

    Ger Francis
    There is no political figure in Birmingham who would dare to publicly make this charge against Salma Yaqoob for the reason that it is simply rubbish.

    I made it against Galloway, not Salma Yaqoob if you’d been paying attention. How’s his involvement with Respect working out for you guys?

    I also agree that funding that effectively goes to whites only groups (and I have seen this in some tenant group contexts) needs to be looked at carefully. Somehow, de facto self-segregation by whites avoids the community cohesion police.)

    Bob – agreed.

    If you think not ‘playing to the gallery’ entails echoing BNP style arguments about ‘white groups’ suffering from unfair community funding, ‘besieged white identity’ and, bizarrely, appearing more exercised about George Galloway and the MCB, than you do about Nick Griffiths, you deserve to be criticized.

    I said that’s how many people feel. Whether you want to close your ears and pretend this isn’t the case, or not, isn’t my problem.

    But what if Muslims have anti-war views? Do they fail your nationhood tests if they believe the Palestinians, for example, have the right to wage armed struggle to resist oppression?

    What the hell do views on a war have to do with citizenship?

    I certainly don’t think anti-racism is furthered by pandering to an argument which locates the appeal of the BNP in the fact that British Muslims are just a bit too Muslim, bemoans the fact they are not a bit more ‘moderate’, and wishes they had a little less solidarity with other Muslims suffering oppression across the globe.

    Of course I didn’t say any of that but then you Respect lackeys are good at smearing while actually having nothing substantial to say.

  12. matchan — on 30th June, 2009 at 1:30 pm  

    One reason for the BNP upsurge is they address issues that are neglected by the ‘main’ parties. So long as that ground remains unoccupied, the BNP can move in, and plant their flag.

    Immigration is on the rise, and political correctness is rampant. Many whites feel (rightly or wrongly) that they’re under attack. Fertile BNP ground.

  13. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 1:31 pm  

    Calm down Sunny. I am glad to hear you don’t make the ‘communalist’ charge against Salma. Apparently, it is George it is aimed at. Ok. Now, please provide some evidence to substantiate. As I said before ‘communalism’ is not the production of literature aimed at specific sections of a community, (all parties do that – the Labour MP for Birmingham Sparkbrook has just recently issued a home addressed letter at all Muslim voters in the constituency ), nor it is supporting funding for needs specific to particular communities, (nothing in itself wrong with that), it is when communities are counter posed to each other on racial or religious grounds or, more crudely, when politicians try to play one community off against another. Where is your evidence that George does this?

    You asked about George. At the moment he is busy jumping between Tower Hamlets and the US while fundraising for the American Viva Palestina convey, which is looking very promising. I will make sure to pass on your best wishes. I am happy to debate with you your misrepresentation of his views on Iran, or anything else for that matter, but right now that is a distraction from your ‘communalist’ allegation.

    So, evidence please…

  14. andy newman — on 30th June, 2009 at 1:33 pm  

    examples,

    yes I used t be company secretary of a charity that provided an equivelent service to CAB, but focussed on clients who did not have English as their first language.

    In my town public or lottery funding has also gone to projects seekking to provide support to the Somali communityy, who were struggling with all sorts of problems having been dispersed to a town that had no infrastructural support for them.

    the harbour project also provides support and care for asylum seekers.

    All of these are charities than the BNP have attacked, and clamed that it was unfair that they were getting funding.

    Indeed, the problem with accomodating this grievance,, is that it has nothin g to do with funding. An silamic charity in Swindon has recently taken over a former workinig mens club, and is converting it into a cultural centre, which will also be made avialable to the host community.

    The rascist are campaigning against this even though i) white people will benefit from it; ii) the entire enterprise is privately funded by local Muslims from their own money. the BNP have simply lied and said that council money is going towards it.

    So the “greivance” is often that Muslim groups exist, not that they are publicaly funded.

  15. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 1:39 pm  

    But what if Muslims have anti-war views? Do they fail your nationhood tests if they believe the Palestinians, for example, have the right to wage armed struggle to resist oppression?

    Blimey, what a load doublespeak.

    Here are two facts:

    1) None of your assertions about British Muslims are incorrect.
    2) These assertions on British Muslims have nothing to do with the fact that RESPECT is a communalist party by definition. Just as the Christian Party is and just as a Sikh or a Hindu or a Jewish party would be, if there were to be one.

    We can trust always the snake oil salesmen from the Far Left to come and lecture to us on what constitutes religious identity politics.

  16. billaricaydicey — on 30th June, 2009 at 1:39 pm  

    Sunny, you and I have had our fallings out in the past, but this is the best analysis that I have seen about the state of the movement at the moment. Apart from mine that is!
    Ger Francis is a Trot, and I saw the same scum at the meeting at the same time as yours in the Bishopgate Institute. A totally controlled Trot circus.

    I am speaking tonight about Blair Peach and the movement generally on the Asian staion Hayes FM 91.8FM at 5.50. Be there or be square.

    Don,t worry about Andy Newman, he has just had to apologise to me for slagging off my parents, but of that, more later. Listen and we will all talk.

  17. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:02 pm  

    “George. At the moment he is busy jumping between Tower Hamlets and the US while fundraising for the American Viva Palestina convey, which is looking very promising.”

    And working for Iranian state TV, defending Ahmedinejhad. Don’t forget that bit.

    P.

  18. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:08 pm  

    And of course, there’s absolutely no truth to Respect being at all communalist; it’s a fact that Zionists photoshopped these photos:

    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2990

    P.

  19. Sunny — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:30 pm  

    It’s always great when your critics defend Galloway. It saves me from spending time refuting them.

  20. Ravi Naik — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:53 pm  

    And of course, there’s absolutely no truth to Respect being at all communalist; it’s a fact that Zionists photoshopped these photos:

    http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2990

    Did anyone notice that the men are sitting in front, and women at the back?

  21. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:57 pm  

    “Did anyone notice that the men are sitting in front, and women at the back?”

    Yup, indeed; that’s what I was referring to. Ger Francis himself defended it, saying “They could have sat anywhere”, as it’s purely coincidence that all the women sat at the back and as if there’s no such thing as peer pressure.

    P.

  22. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:58 pm  

    Holding a meeting in a mosque, which was open to non-Muslims, is now evidence of communalism?! The fact our electoral imprint is most pronounced in areas with large Muslim populations is evidence of communalism?!? The latter is hardly surprising for a party with a strong anti-war and anti-racist identity in a country where the sharpest fracture in traditional political loyalties over the war was in Muslim communities. Yet according to Sunny’s defenders these two facts ‘by definition’ make us a ‘communalist’ party!!

    Is this really the best you can come up with? Please tell me you can do better because this level of argument is pathetic.

    C’mon Sunny, enough of the student union posturing and name calling, you made the charge, now back it up. A good place to start would be to provide some hard facts highlighting how George Galloway stirs up sectarian and/or racial divisions.

    I am waiting…

  23. Ravi Naik — on 30th June, 2009 at 2:59 pm  

    What a heartless individual:

    George [Galloway] drew his speech to a close with an emotional account of how the grieving mother and father of a Soldier killed in Afghanistan had approached him recently at the end of public meeting. He explained their anger and confusion how they blamed the Taliban, and with pride how their son had died with a “picture of the Queen in his breast pocket”. George said how difficult it was to tell them that the “Queen didn’t have a picture of their son, didn’t attend his funeral” and they should blame the the government that sent their son to his death not the people of Afghanistan who have a right to resist the occupation of the country

    This is a guy that supported Saddam Hussein and now Ahmedinejhad.

  24. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:08 pm  

    “Holding a meeting in a mosque, which was open to non-Muslims, is now evidence of communalism?!”

    So are you expecting praise because you didn’t actively ban non-Muslims from your meetings, merely allowed gender segregration?

    “This is a guy that supported Saddam Hussein and now Ahmedinejhad.”

    At least George has some cash to show for his behaviour. Look at all the ridiculous characters who support George and get absolutely nothing out of it.

    P.

  25. Lisa — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:10 pm  

    What are the photos supposed to show?

    Black and white, male and female audience sitting in a mosque, in seats they’ve chosen to sit in, listening to a public meeting?

    Ubless of course I’m missing something that can be proven otherwise?

    Communialism:
    “Communalism is used in South Asia to denote attempts to promote primarily religious stereotypes between groups of people identified as different communities and to stimulate violence between those groups…”

    I don’t see that in the Left in Britain, the BNP maybe, but not the left…

  26. MoreMediaNonsense — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:13 pm  

    Ravi – You should read the rest of that “Socialist Unity” (sic) thread where Andy Newman tries to defend Galloway re his support for the Taleban. Its hilarious.

    I know the discussion was a while ago but its quite enlightening and I have a long memory :)

  27. cjcjc — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:13 pm  

    So, Ger, was that meeting segregated or not?

    We’re waiting…

  28. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:14 pm  

    Holding a meeting in a mosque, which was open to non-Muslims, is now evidence of communalism?!

    Nice try.

    No you’re communalists because you promote primarily discriminatory religious identity politics by stimulating differences between communities based on real notions of racial injustice or by a position taken on the Iraq war and foreign policy in general based on arbitrary notions of religious identity.

  29. Lisa — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:21 pm  

    Selective pictures? Come on…

    Respect meetings gallery: http://birminghamrespect.wordpress.com/category/galleries/

    And this one: http://birminghamrespect.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/crowd-swell-beyond-capacity-and-take-to-the-corridors.jpg

    Yeah, for some reason I don’t buy this ‘segregation’ argument… it’s just a random pot luck even you guys have picked so drop it…

    My guess is the overwhelming crowd that would have turned up at the mosque to listen to a meeting on Pakistan and to hear George Galloway would be Muslim and even if they weren’t… it would be second nature to try and respect any perceived ideas of mosque out of respect…

  30. cjcjc — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:27 pm  

    “it would be second nature to try and respect any perceived ideas of mosque out of respect…”

    Yeah, because segregation is really worthy of respect, right?

  31. MixTogether — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:33 pm  

    If the BNP read this thread i should think they will be delighted to see so much faction fighting. There should be no opponents in the comments of a thread like this.

  32. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:35 pm  

    “My guess is the overwhelming crowd that would have turned up at the mosque to listen to a meeting on Pakistan and to hear George Galloway would be Muslim”

    So Lisa, does every Muslim women you know wants segregated seating then? That’s very odd, as I don’t know any who do.

    P.

  33. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

    Paul, it sounds like you don’t know any Muslims at all

  34. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:40 pm  

    “Paul, it sounds like you don’t know any Muslims at all”

    And why do you say that? Oh wait, next you’ll tell me they’re not “proper” Muslims – that’s how the head of MPAC in Ireland referred to my friends anyway.

    P.

  35. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:42 pm  

    Dearie me. Now the fact that Muslim women chose to sit separately at a meeting is evidence of ‘communalism’! Shouldn’t Muslim women be given the choice to sit where they are most comfortable?

    One of the positive impacts of Salma’s emergence in politics is that it has encouraged other Muslim women to engage in political life. If having the option of separate seating for those women who choose to exercise it facilitates their attendance at political meetings, is that not a good thing? When we organised coaches to the anti-war demonstrations a large number of Muslim women requested women only transport. And many would not have gone on the demo’s without it. Should we have forced them to sit with men against their will?

    I doubt very much if those who highlight the Birmingham mosque meeting were actually at it. I was and helped organise it. Charges of enforced, segregated seating are complete rubbish.

    Faisal, please give me an example of where George, or anyone else, promotes ‘discriminatory religious identity politics’? As for Respect saying that the Iraq war being based on identity politics, the exact opposite is the case. George and Salma have been explicit in arguing it was based on imperialism, oil, remapping the Middle East in the interests of US hegemony and not motivated by some ‘war against Islam’. Check out Salma’s contribution to Mark Perryman’s new book, ‘The Break up of Britain’, if you don’t believe me, or the earlier version of the article in Feminist Review (Aug 2008, I think).

  36. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:42 pm  

    This isn’t evidence of communalism, just segregation among a particular community. What should Respect have done, told the attendees to hold hands, kiss, and shag each other to prove they aren’t segregated?

    Some evidence of communalism would be nice please. Not that Labour aren’t bloody communalist in East London, or up North where they harvest postal votes in Asian areas.

  37. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:44 pm  

    If you knew any Muslims, you’d know there is a practice of segregation directly derived from the religious texts. Whether or not you agree with it, many Muslims, particularly those who attend mosques, will be familiar with it.

  38. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:48 pm  

    Faisal, please give me an example of where George, or anyone else, promotes ‘discriminatory religious identity politics’?

    Knock yourself out:
    http://www.spittoon.org/archives/974
    http://www.spittoon.org/archives/1019
    http://www.spittoon.org/archives/1137

  39. cjcjc — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:49 pm  

    Denim – to quote you from another thread – how very “progressive”!

  40. MoreMediaNonsense — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:54 pm  

    The Respect’ers view then is that non-progressive cultural/religious practices like gender segregation should be “Respected”. Why ?

    Progressives don’t “Respect” other cultural/religious practices like FGM or killing witches eg. Why should they “Respect” gender segregation ?

    Oh I know – how silly – its an attempt to get votes from a certain community.

    So its alright then.

  41. Paul Moloney — on 30th June, 2009 at 3:56 pm  

    “When we organised coaches to the anti-war demonstrations a large number of Muslim women requested women only transport.”

    When you say “large number”, what proportio of the overall number of women requested this? And at a rough guess, what percentage of the general population of Muslim women in the UK do you think would refuse to share a vehicle with a man? I mean, I presume these asme women are incapable of using planes unless they hire their own charter flight.

    P.

  42. 1mongrel — on 30th June, 2009 at 4:21 pm  

    The idea that an identity can be imposed from the top down represents the ultimate folly of the now disjointed relationship between state and citizen. the “British” State no longer seems to represent either a geography or a people, believing itself above such considerations and vilifying those that disagree with it. It has forgotten that the Citizens appoint The State rather than The State appointing The Citizens (Though it’s appointed plenty in the last few decades). In the end The British People will decide who is or isn’t British, this may include some other ethnicities or religions, it may not but it is for them and them alone to decide.

  43. Lilliput — on 30th June, 2009 at 4:24 pm  

    “I also agree that funding that effectively goes to whites only groups (and I have seen this in some tenant group contexts) needs to be looked at carefully. Somehow, de facto self-segregation by whites avoids the community cohesion police.)”

    Bob – van you give an example of a white only funded group?

    What is communalism? or can you point me in the direction to find what it is?

  44. Shatterface — on 30th June, 2009 at 4:49 pm  

    “George. At the moment he is busy jumping between Tower Hamlets and the US while fundraising for the American Viva Palestina convey, which is looking very promising.”

    ‘And working for Iranian state TV, defending Ahmedinejhad. Don’t forget that bit.’

    I thought I recognised the name – wasn’t he also an MP at one time?

  45. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 5:06 pm  

    Faisal,

    that’s devastating stuff.

    Link 1 is to a meeting encouraging women to engage in politics. And?

    Link 2 is about an article from the East London about Labour in-fighting. Apparently, being a member of the IFE is evidence enough that somebody must be ‘communalist’. Whatever happened to providing proof of George or anyone else stirring racial or sectarian division?

    Link 3 is…wait for it…attacking the Stop the War meeting in East London launching its campaign to tackle Islamaphobia. A good thing you would have thought. Apparently not. Talking about anti-Muslim racism is now ‘communalist’.

    Sunnyboy, you need to get a better class of defender. Alternatively, you could try put some substance to your own allegations about George Galloway being a ‘communalist’ and not rely on some Harry’s Place clones to do it for you.

  46. Centrist — on 30th June, 2009 at 5:13 pm  

    <>

    But Muslims are not a race.

    Many Muslims in this country may come from certain Ethnic groups, but that doesn’t transform a religion into a race, does it?

  47. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:11 pm  

    Ger Francis

    Heh, you’re a partisan Trot. You champion George Galloway, who’s a western propagandist for the Iranian theocratic regime via PressTV. You’re here to propagandise for the utterly communalist RESPECT which plays on fears of Islamophobia to further it’s own agenda of communalist religious identity politics.

    What did you want? A pat on the back?

  48. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:20 pm  

    We have to put an end to anti-Muslim discrimination, but it won’t be possible through the likes of you Ger Francis. Muslims are currently being done a great disservice by the StWC, the MCB, and their cohorts. Te Muslim community needs a sane alternative to your nasty politics.

  49. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:34 pm  

    And you are that alternative, Sid/Faisal? Despite years of taking the piss out of any Muslim organisation that didn’t reject its religious roots?

    What is a Muslim without Islam?

  50. Leon — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:42 pm  

    What is a Muslim without Islam?

    Free.

  51. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:46 pm  

    So you are saying Islam is slavery? Surely if people like Sid/Faisal want to get “free” themselves of Islam, how can they call themselves Muslims thereafter?

    Why not just call themselves British full stop?

  52. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:46 pm  

    I prefer to ask,

    What is Islamism without Islam?

  53. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 6:49 pm  

    What is Islam without Islamism?

    Answer the original question: what are Muslims without Islam? Free, as Leon suggests?

  54. Bob — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:00 pm  

    As I’ve already remarked over at Socialist Unity, it’s surprising that Faisal hasn’t seen fit to condemn Sunny for agreeing to participate in Friday evening’s meeting.

    The event was, after all, organised by the City Circle, who the Spittoon have denounced as a Wahhabi/Muslim Brotherhood front. The Spittoon demands: “Have the British government’s counter-terrorism’s boffins done their due diligence on City Circle and its extremist connections?”

    Yes, really, that’s the City Circle they’re talking about!

    I’m toying with this theory that the Spittoon was in fact set up by David Toube, who is paying Faisal and his mates to post articles of such lunacy that the frenzied anti-Islamist witch-hunting at Harry’s Place appears almost sane by comparison.

  55. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:03 pm  

    I’m very proud of Sunny for taking this stand.

    Sorry I can’t return the compliment about your Ahmadinejad-flag-waving propagandising webshite. – IslamophobiaWatch. hahaha

  56. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:11 pm  

    I thought Sunny was there to discuss the BNP rather than take a stand against some Muslims you don’t like Sid?

    Answer the question: what are Muslims without Islam?

    Or: what is Islam without Islamism?

  57. Leon — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:24 pm  

    So you are saying Islam is slavery?

    Sorry couldn’t resist. :D I was implying that all religion is slavery…

  58. Denim Justice — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:27 pm  

    Newsflash: Muslims are slaves! You heard it here first on Pickled Politics!

    Does that mean PP and The Spittoon are abolitionists?

  59. Leon — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:30 pm  

    Freedom fighters man! Seriously, I was just having a bit of Atheistic fun at your experience, don’t take it to mean anything malicious.

  60. Bob — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:30 pm  

    “Ahmadinejad-flag-waving propagandising webshite. – IslamophobiaWatch”

    Oddly enough, I can’t find a single favourable reference to Ahmadinejad on Islamophobia Watch. Perhaps Faisal can direct us to one?

    Though, to be strictly accurate, IW did once defend Ahmadinejad against an accusation by Melanie Phillips that he had appeared in a Hizb ut-Tahrir video!

  61. Cjcjc — on 30th June, 2009 at 7:34 pm  

    @51 would there be anything especially wrong with that?

  62. Shatterface — on 30th June, 2009 at 9:00 pm  

    ‘Answer the question: what are Muslims without Islam?’

    Unsubmissive?

  63. Roger — on 30th June, 2009 at 9:31 pm  

    “So you are saying Islam is slavery?”
    As muslims themselves claim to be slaves of god, it’s a pretty reasonable inference.

    The problem is that both the B.N.P. and their opponents think in obsolete terms. The British nation- however you define it- and every other nation- cannot exist as the kind of monoracial monocultural autarky the B.N.P. dream of. There can’t even be a monoracial monocultural Europe any more. It’s one world, ready or not and like it or not, and we’ve no choice but to try to do the best we can for that world. “No man is an island entire of itself”, but nor is an island or even a continent. What happens anywhere affects everywhere and we’ve got to live on that basis or we’ll all die on it.

  64. Sunny — on 30th June, 2009 at 9:54 pm  

    I’d turn the question around: if Respect under G Galloway was such an inclusive and positive vehicle to empower Muslims and white working class people, why has it collapsed so spectactularly?

    Was that the hand of Zionists or something?

    It was also amusing that when I pointed out to Ger Francis that Galloway had gone on Press TV to defend Ahmedinijad against the protesters he started blustering and fuming.

    And how is his record in attendance again for the people of Bethnal Green? Is that what you call Respect competency?

  65. Ger Francis — on 30th June, 2009 at 10:21 pm  

    Sunny,

    All this bluster about George and Iran, George and Respect, George’s record in his constituency, is a distraction. I am happy to debate it it all elsewhere. Open a new thread if you want.

    In the mean time, I have consistently asked you to provide evidence to substantiate your allegations about GG’s alleged ‘communalism’. You have done nothing but blow smoke in response. Anybody can throw mud and smear. If you want to be taken seriously, substantiate your claims.

    Since you are struggling with this, lets make things a bit easier. Why not start with a definition of what you mean by ‘communalism’.

    Should not be too difficult, eh?

  66. Guessedworker — on 30th June, 2009 at 10:57 pm  

    Sunny,

    You are ignoring the fundamental driver, which is the injustice of stealing away the homeland of an entire people, while at the same time demonising (to use your word) their righteous self-defence.

    The English, which is the people who we are really talking about, are not morally obligated to immerse themselves in the bottomless seas of the Third World. They are morally obligated only to pursue their own ethnic interests, which definitely include possession of the ancestral homeland.

    In that, they are no different to any other people anywhere.

    Now, Sunny, you are being asked by the BNP to go to your own ancestral homeland. You, in turn, are asking the English, over time, to cease to exist. That is the asymmetry of the situation, and the reason why the BNP WILL most assuredly win – and the English people too. Of course, it would be utterly wrong and unjust for the English not to win, and to pay with their collective life in the 22nd century.

    Whenever I point out this unimpeachable moral argument to English race-replacement advocates the response always involves one of five stratagems:-

    1. Claiming that the English do not exist, which is simply racist, and is not something the same people would claim of Jews, Palestinians, Tibetans, etc. There are several ways of making this claim – for example requesting me to take a DNA test – but they all come down to the same racist assertion.

    2. Claiming that English survival equates directly to racist violence, dead Jews, etc, which is a simply a blood-libel on the English and is morally bankrupt.

    3. Raising the strawman about racial purity – which, again, is something that would never be said about Jews or Palestians or Tibetans. All peoples have a right to ethnic continuity – the UN recognised the principle in September 2007 with the GA approval of the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Ethnic continuity is the ultimate interest in human life, and includes not being changed in part or whole into some other people.

    4. Another favourite ploy is to argue that genes cline but don’t cluster (wrong), and that “we are all Africans” and everyone is an immigrant. This is somehow meant to collapse the vast genetic and sociobiological distances between peoples, and make it OK to see Rwandans and Pashtuns as no different to one’s own English children.

    Of course it is an incredibly stupid and self-serving argument, but native British leftists have never been interested in truth, only in “winning”, and foreigners like you who use leftism for your own ethnic ends, well …

    5. If all that fails – and it does – theere is always the old fall-back of screaching “racist-fascist-Nazi” and so forth, until the poor lefty foams at the mouth and falls over backwards, twitching involuntarily.

    What can one say? It’s mental illness.

    So if you want to address the moral argument that the English must live and not die, and that’s why the MultiCult must be dismantled and its post June 23rd 1948 denizens returned to whence they came, or some other place if they prefer, please try to come up with something more original and meaningful than these five losing gameplays.

    Somehow you have to prove that the MultiCult is good for the English – better than survival itself. Otherwise you lose.

    Something tells me you can’t do it.

  67. Roger — on 1st July, 2009 at 3:56 am  

    “You are ignoring the fundamental driver, which is the injustice of stealing away the homeland of an entire people.”

    So, you favour Britain for the Picts and deportation of the Roman, German, Scandinavian and French invaders then?

  68. billericaydicky — on 1st July, 2009 at 6:58 am  

    Excellent article Sunny. You have correctly summed up the situation we face in terms of the BNP and how to fight it. It certainly sounds like your meeting was more interesting than the one organised by the SWP over in the Bishopsgate Insitute where I had a real sense of deja vue.

    It was like being at an anti fascist meeting in the seventies. It was said of the Bourbon Kings of France that they had learnt nothing and forgotten nothing and that could apply to the left today. When I say the left I am of course talking about the mainly Trotskyist dominated part of it which talks in mantras and ticks boxes.

    What that section of the left hasn’t grasped is that the world has moved on from that period. Griffin has totally changed the agenda and the SWP dominated section of the anti fascist movement, although tiny, will not accept the change in strategy and tactics.

    It is interesting that you were accused of ” pandering to the BNP”. This is exactly what SWP/Respect/UAF et al have said about the Hope Not Hate strategy of engaging with that section of white people who have or are likely to vote for the BNP. That of course means talking to them, going onto the estates, knocking on doors and demolishing the urban myths that too often become, very quickly, urban lies.

    It is interesting that the SWP issued a call for anti fascist unity just after the elections. This is widely regarded as a sign of their failed strategy and extremely weak position. The editorial in the current edition of Searchlight talks of reviewing the strategy and having talks with other strands in the anti fascist movement.

    I can’t see this including UAF because they are using a strategy from the seventies which wasn’t very effective then and also because they, having the Leninist vanguard/leadership/control form of organisation, will want to control everything.

    I also agree with you that far too much attention was paid to the supposed needs and greviances of ethnic minorities. Self appointed community leaders would demand and get vast sums of money.

    Over the past thirty years millions have been pumped into projects which have done nothing to alleviate the supposed problems it was supposed to and instead disappeared into the pockets of the self same leaders.

    The down side of all this was to produce a sense of victimhood which can be seen in every edition of the black newspaper The Voice. Whatever bad is happening it is all whitey’s fault and whitey has to pay. The only long term beneficiaries of this have been Griffin and the BNP.

    Fortunately the tide has turned. Decisions have been taken somewhere that whatever flack the race industry, what’s left of it, could throw, the threat from an angry white electorate voting BNP was far more dangerous.

    There have been a couple of shots fired from the retreating race industry. The Equalities and Human Right Commission has, it seems, written to the BNP about some of the articles of its constitution which may break race relations laws. This of course is a minefield as the same commission lets lots of other groups exclude white people.

    I agree with you about Southall Black Sisters Sunny, an admirable group set up just after the death of Blair. I spoke on the same platform as them at the Dominion Centre in Southall at the launch of Southall Story. I was speaking from the Friends of Blair Peach and got a really good reception.

    Incidentally the interview with me didn’t go out yesterday for some reason but I had a text message from the interviewer Angela Kanwar to say it should be going out this evening about five thirty to six today on 91.8 FM. I tried to get the station in East London but no luck, it might just be a West London one.

    You are spot on about Respect. It was doomed to fail because of the opportunists who started it. It only every really functioned in Tower Hamlets and from election night the SWP had lost control when the Bangladeshis on the instructions of the village elders and power brokers voted for the Bangladeshis on the ticket and not the whites who were all SWP.

    Quite why anyone thinks that there is a future for it is beyond me. At a bye election in Tower Hamlets last year Mile End Respect through everything into it, were predicting a win and were beaten into third place by the Tories. They got a quarter of the votes cast and were then talking about this being a base to build on.

    Good article Sunny, let’s have more of the same, this kind of debate is long overdue.

  69. cjcjc — on 1st July, 2009 at 7:11 am  

    Hey, Ger, I enjoyed watching Respect candidate Dr Naseem from the B’ham mosque on the 7/7 conspiracy programme last night.

    Great party you have there – keep it up!

  70. Denim Justice — on 1st July, 2009 at 7:21 am  

    the supposed needs and greviances of ethnic minorities

    How many white people are beaten up, spat on and murdered because of their colour? Let alone, denied access to jobs and education? Is there even a racial insult for a white person that has entered common usage in the UK?

    That’s right, ignore the ethnics, they are scum, let’s treat the white working class like some kind of errant gods we must listen to and respect over the working class of any other colour.

    No wonder you have no credibility in East London. Or are you still challenging Sunny to having a curry?

  71. dave bones — on 1st July, 2009 at 7:30 am  

    I don’t agree with Guessed worker as I like a multi cultural England. Being white, but half Hungarian I have always been a bit bemused by these sorts of arguments but from what I have seen and people I have talked to im my area I think his arguments as stated here, and BNP arguments like this resonate with people who have voted the BNP into more power than they have had for a while.

    In a climate where maninstream politicians have proved themselves to be morally bankrupt and the left is still hopelessly addicted to infighting rather than taking any advantage whatsoever of the demise of mainstream politicians the ball is being pushed into the BNPs court quicker than they can try to grab it.

  72. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 7:40 am  

    70. How many Whites?

    Well you could start with Bradley Knight, Ross Parker, Gavin Hopley, Charlene Downes, Ashley Hedger and Gavin Hopley. Then you could find a whole lot more that haven’t been reported in the MSM because they don’t reinforce the lie. Then you could look at the Home Office’s own Statistics, then you could ask yourself why “Minorities” seem to have a strike rate at least 30 times greater than whites but then you might have to question who really are the racists in this country and you might not like the answer. So best not to look.

  73. Denim Justice — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:05 am  

    Why can’t we just accept that there are a lot of racist whites out there, especially among some working class communities, and then just get on with dealing with issues that affect ALL working class and poor people – not just the white ones. The idea that ethnic minority communities have been treated better than white ones is a joke. Black and some Asian communities are the worst off in this country.

    We should do what LBJ did when he signed the Civil Rights Act – do what is good for everyone, and damn the racists, even if we do lose their votes for a generation. Just mobilise all the ethnic minorities, whom you’ve just publicly defended, to get out and vote alongside progressive whites. That was the alliance that put Obama in power. He addressed some racist wankers, but ultimately they are still going on about how he isn’t American, how he is a Muslim socialist, etc etc. Should public policy be based around pleasing nutjobs like the 1 million who voted for the BNP? No, it should be based around the 59 million who didn’t vote for the BNP or didn’t vote at all.

    Fuck the BNP’s voters, and their apologists. Let’s deal with the real problems in this country.

  74. Denim Justice — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:06 am  

    @72 Please take your lies back to Stormfront with you, that’s a good racist.

  75. Ger Francis — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:15 am  

    ‘I also agree with you that far too much attention was paid to the supposed needs and greviances of ethnic minorities….Good article Sunny, let’s have more of the same, this kind of debate is long overdue.’

    Yep. That just about sums up the logic of Sunny’s argument. Apparently the way to challenge racism is to pander to it.

    And still no substantiation for the ‘communal’ allegation…

  76. tomoe yamanaka — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:17 am  

    germania arise!

  77. cjcjc — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:29 am  

    Ger – anything to say about Dr Naseem?

    You must consider him a great asset for your party.

  78. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:40 am  

    74, No “Lies” there, all verifiable without recourse to Stormfront. (You should have said “Myths”, that’s the Right On Buzzword for today). Still, I predicted you wouldn’t want to look, much better to trump anything that destroys your mythmaking with the dreaded “R” word .

  79. cjcjc — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:45 am  

    Have you got a link to your source?

    Assume your argument is that the number of white on minority attacks divided by the total number of whites is smaller than the number of non-white on white attacks divided by the number of non-whites?

    That may well be true.
    And not many people – though what Denim J believes is anyone’s guess – would deny that non-whites are perfectly capable of racism.

    That doesn’t mean that white on minority attacks are not still the bigger problem.

  80. Guessedworker — on 1st July, 2009 at 9:18 am  

    Roger @ 67,

    So, you favour Britain for the Picts and deportation of the Roman, German, Scandinavian and French invaders then?

    I know that one well. It is another variation on the “English do not exist” argument, implying that we are nothing more than a capacious bag into which every human gene can be stuffed. It is racist and, ultimately, it is genocidal.

    Let’s see no more racism from you. The English exist. We have the human right to seek the continuity of that existence. You do not have the right to oppose us in that – look at Articles 2b and 2c of the 1947/51 Convention on the Punishment and Prevention of Genocide.

    dave bones @ 71,

    You write that you are white but half-Hungarian. That may be sufficient to place your ethnic interests in direct opposition to English ethnic interests. You say you like multi-culturalism. But thereby you are opposing the English possession of England. Ask yourself honestly that whether you want to see Hungary Africanised or Asianised or both?

    Be aware that your individual interests are not important besides the interests of an entire people. If you lived in China, would you wish the Chinese to be Africanised and Europeanised? No. You would understand the sickness of such a desire. It would be no different in Hungary. It is no different in England.

    Always make room for a native people to pursue their own peaceful path in life.

  81. Golam Murtaza — on 1st July, 2009 at 9:39 am  

    I’ve considered the BNP’s request that I leave England and have decided that I quite like it here, so think I’ll stick around. Cheers for asking though gents. Nice to know you care.

  82. Ravi Naik — on 1st July, 2009 at 9:45 am  

    Well you could start with Bradley Knight, Ross Parker, Gavin Hopley, Charlene Downes, Ashley Hedger and Gavin Hopley. Then you could find a whole lot more that haven’t been reported in the MSM because they don’t reinforce the lie.

    What is your point 1mongrel? Racist violence is abhorrent no matter who does it.

  83. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 10:00 am  

    79,

    There you go-

    http://www.darklake-synectics.co.uk/ithilien-web/docs/interracial_violence_briefing_report.pdf

    You wont like the source though.

    Denim’s mum obviously never told him that when someone has jaundice the whole world appears to be yellow.

  84. billericaydicky — on 1st July, 2009 at 10:00 am  

    Just because 1mongrel is quoting figures that have also appeared on far right sites doesn’t mean they aren’t true. Certainly most racial attacks in East London are on white people and in inner London even the CRE some years ago admitted as much.

    The whole victim culture that has been pushed onto ethnic minorities by the liberal/left has only really worked on African Caribbeans. Asians generally have got on although a lot of Bangladeshi youth is now adopting the swagger, patois and clothes of black youth along with the agressive behaviour that goes with it.

    Africans generally get on in the professions and business as do Chinese, Vietnamese, Turks and others. It is the African Caribbeans that have been the biggest victims of the blame whitey for everything. Starting with Darcus Howe in 1974 writing in Race Today that when black youth mugged a white person it was a revolutionary act up to Ken Livingston apologising for slavery on behalf of Londoners, something that lost him the election, at least three generationa of black youth havebeen told nothing is their fault.

    It is diffuclt to believe it now that the CRE has gone, Jasper is probably going to get his collar felt by old bill and Darcus Howe a pathetic nobody reduced to a ridiculous column in The Voice that anyone took these people seriously.

    Over the years their opinions were eagerly sought, millions was thrown at their pet projects, the charge of racism from these non elected non entities could cost a white person their job and, in the case of Simon Wooley, black racists were even brought in and paid to draft anti white legislation like La Harman’s new “Equalities” bill going through Parliament at the moment. Can anyone imagine Nick Griffin being paid to draft immigration law?

    I do have credibility in the East End, just not with the losers of Respect and I am quite happy about that and Sunny is more than welcome to the curry and Cobra down Brick Lane. I will be able to point out the graffitti which says kill the Jews and introduce him to real Bangladeshis who are concerned about asylum and immigration and think the country is full up.

  85. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 10:04 am  

    82.

    My point was answering someone who was spreading the myth that only whites can be racist. He Asked “How many whites” and I gave a partial answer, the true figures having been manipulated by Govt. and Media for political ends.

  86. munir — on 1st July, 2009 at 12:45 pm  

    Bob
    “I’m toying with this theory that the Spittoon was in fact set up by David Toube, who is paying Faisal and his mates to post articles of such lunacy that the frenzied anti-Islamist witch-hunting at Harry’s Place appears almost sane by comparison.”

    Yes that is clearly the case, particularly as with Faisal’s posts on PP, shitoon’s articles are just HP rip-offs. Basically they want a website saying the same anti-Muslim things as HP but with Muslim names as a cover. Shitoon even has caption competitions inviting people to mock Muslims a depth to which HP hasnt sunk.

    The noble work that Islamophobia watch and Bob Pitt documenting the greatest prejudice of out time is greatly appreaciated by many many Muslims. Shitoon is a non entity site no-one visits .

    Given the choice between Islamophobia Watch a website which defends Muslims and Shitoon a website which demonises us it doesnt take a genius to know which one the Muslim community would choose.

  87. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 1st July, 2009 at 12:59 pm  

    Given the choice between Islamophobia Watch a website which defends Muslims and Shitoon a website which demonises us it doesnt take a genius to know which one the Muslim community would choose.

    Speak for yourself Munir.

    When you tried to “out-Muslim” the writers on Spittoon in a campaign of posting putrid, racist and extremist comments, they were very easily dealt with. The efforts of individuals of the far Left like Bob Pitt and Islamists like yourself who would like to conflate the ideology of Jamaat and the Muslim Brotherhood with ordinary British Muslims is coming unstuck. Hence your desperate use of innuendo and slurs.

  88. munir — on 1st July, 2009 at 1:00 pm  

    40 Moremedianonssense

    “The Respect’ers view then is that non-progressive cultural/religious practices like gender segregation should be “Respected”. Why ?

    Progressives don’t “Respect” other cultural/religious practices like FGM or killing witches eg. Why should they “Respect” gender segregation?”

    You are seriously comparing men and women sitting in different places to murder and mutilation of young girls?

    What are you going to do about the continuation of this shocking practice in the UK? Don’t you know we have separate schools for boys and girls – it’s even in public with separate toilets for men and women!

    “Oh I know – how silly – its an attempt to get votes from a certain community. “

    Shocking that politicians would actually listen to the etiquettes in the places of worship of the community they are canvassing. Maybe they should go into a Hindu temple with some beef- show em whose boss.

    “A certain community” … lets be frank you wish this community couldn’t vote

    ——————————-
    “it would be second nature to try and respect any perceived ideas of mosque out of respect…”

    Cjcjc
    “Yeah, because segregation is really worthy of respect, right?

    Only in Orthodox Jewish synagogues

    In mosque men and women have their own areas. To blame Respect for this is lameness beyond the call….

  89. billaricaydickey — on 1st July, 2009 at 2:01 pm  

    Munir,

    Listen son, take your medication and have a nice lay down. I thought it was only us Gora Lhok that felt the heat.

  90. Roger — on 1st July, 2009 at 3:28 pm  

    “It is another variation on the “English do not exist” argument, implying that we are nothing more than a capacious bag into which every human gene can be stuffed. It is racist and, ultimately, it is genocidal.”
    So, Guessedworker, you have no objection to the genocides committed by earlier uninvited immigrants to these islands? Of course the English exist- anyone who lives in England and/or says they are English is English.

  91. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

    90. So, Guessedworker, you have no objection to the genocides committed by earlier uninvited immigrants to these islands? Of course the English exist- anyone who lives in England and/or says they are English is English.

    Which “Genocides” were these? We haven’t even been able to find evidence of a single massacre even from Anglo Saxon times. In the heart of the Saxon County of Wessex, at Cheddar, a 10000 year old skeleton was DNA matched to todays inhabitants of the local village. Fraid DNA is trumping multikulti mendacity on all fronts. Some new lies are required.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0719_050719_britishgene.html

  92. MoreMediaNonsense — on 1st July, 2009 at 3:47 pm  

    minir – “In mosque men and women have their own areas. To blame Respect for this is lameness beyond the call….”

    Who is to blame for this absurd and disgusting practice of segregation then ?

    How would you react to a religion that forced black and white people to sit in separate areas ?

    “Maybe they should go into a Hindu temple with some beef- show em whose boss.”

    I have no time for any of these absurd religious beliefs – they are just posturing by hypocrites most of the time. How many Hindus in the UK campaign for McDonalds to be closed down for example ?

  93. MoreMediaNonsense — on 1st July, 2009 at 4:04 pm  

    Oh and by the way munir not all Muslims are in favour of mosque segregation :

    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/oz-cleric-vows-to-end-segregation-in-mosques_100122332.html

    “Melbourne, Nov.22 (ANI): Australia’’s most senior Muslim, Sheik Fehmi Najl el-Imam, has said he will end segregation of men and women in mosques, in a bold response to Islamic women’’s anger at entrenched discrimination.
    The Mufti of Australia said he would put his proposal to the next meeting of the Australian National Imams” Council and consider how women could share the room with men during prayers.
    According to The Age, Sheikh Fehmi said segregated worship had been introduced long ago, as a cultural change, not a religious one, and he would argue to end it.
    “It is good to hear the complaints of the sisters, and to try to find some solution to their concerns,” he told The Age in an exclusive interview.
    “My duty is to propose, to discuss and try to convince. I can”t guarantee the outcome,” he added.
    Sheikh Fehmi said that in the time of the Prophet Mohammed 1400 years ago, women were not segregated.
    His announcement is likely to attract international attention and may spark fierce debate among highly conservative mosque communities within Australia.
    In some mosques overseas, there are no physical barriers between men’’s and women’’s areas but in Australia almost every mosque separates men’’s and women’’s sections. (ANI)”

    Is this guy an “Islamophobe” or worse an apostate ?

    Surely this discussion is also happening amongst Muslims in the UK ?

  94. Roger — on 1st July, 2009 at 4:07 pm  

    “Which “Genocides” were these? We haven’t even been able to find evidence of a single massacre even from Anglo Saxon times. ”
    Really? You haven’t read the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle or Welsh or Anglo-Saxon poetry?

    “In the heart of the Saxon County of Wessex, at Cheddar, a 10000 year old skeleton was DNA matched to todays inhabitants of the local village. ”
    It was matched by direct descent exclusively in the female line to one inhabitant. It revealed nothing about every other ancestor of their present-day descendant. It fits in well with the traditional practise of invaders’ killing the male inhabitants and mating with the females.

  95. Guessedworker — on 1st July, 2009 at 4:13 pm  

    Roger,

    1mongrel has answered you. But even if genocidal tribal warfare occurred in the past, why would that disqualify my puny efforts to prevent genocide of my people now? You logic is flawed. You have no argument that I have not heard many times and despatched. You are anti-English, and the days when you could get away with it are over. Now I am calling you out. How does it feel?

    You write: “Of course the English exist- anyone who lives in England and/or says they are English is English.”

    British nationality has rules, which can be and are currently being shaped by the political class to be open to anyone from anywhere. But peoples are kinship groups, and Rwandans and Somalis cannot simply declare themselves members of another kinship group, any more than you can declare yourself a Rwandan or a Somali.

    Blood is always exclusive, and English blood is no exception. There are no black or brown Englishmen … none. To contend otherwise is to deny the English their very being, their genetic specificity, and that is racist.

  96. Roger — on 1st July, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

    “Blood is always exclusive, and English blood is no exception. ”

    Actually, blood is completely unexclusive. You will find every blood group and sub-group among every “race” in the world. You can transfuse blood between two people regardles of “race” if- and many of them are- they are members of the right blood groups. There are variations in the proportions of each group between different populations, but it would be impossible to base racial/ethnic/cultural definition merely on the possession of a particular blood group.

    There is no “genetic specifity” to Englishness. There is a cultural inexactitude in fact, and it is a much better basis for national definition than imbecile definitions based on supposed ancestry inspiring murderous hatred. Englishness is something that Monty Panesar has as much as Freddie Flintoff, Zadie Smith as A.S. Byatt, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor as Gustav Holst, Henry James as Rudyard Kipling, John Florio as George Chapman, Stefan Themerson as Bertrand Russell, George Weidenfeld as Nigel Nicholson. So far from being fragile and vulnerable, Englishness is protean and expansionary; it can swallow and transmogrify ideas, words, people from all over the world and make them English

  97. Guessedworker — on 1st July, 2009 at 4:50 pm  

    Roger,

    Where did I refer to blood group? Would you like to argue that genetic variation between kinship groups does not exist because blood groups are common to humanity?

    Don’t twist words.

    There is no “genetic specifity” to Englishness.

    Google “gene map Europe”, or look here:

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/nature07331-f1.2-774974.jpg

    … and never again argue that the English are the same as Rwandans – or even French and Irish!

    So far from being fragile and vulnerable, Englishness is protean and expansionary; it can swallow and transmogrify ideas, words, people from all over the world and make them English

    You are a very confused person. The English are not an idea or a word, not a culture – a truly absurd and insulting suggestion. We are a northern European kinship group. We are no different in our peoplehood than Jew or Turk or Afghan, and we enjoy the same natural interest in continuity that they do.

    Rendering us an idea destroys us. You, it seems, wish to destroy us.

    What is your ethnicity? Why do you hate the English?

  98. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 5:01 pm  

    Ooh Roger (94), you seek to disinform. The Anglo Saxon Chronicles were written hundreds of years after the supposed “Invasion” and are fiction(Though I can see why you prefer it to science). There is no evidence for the replacement theory in either Archeology or DNA studies. During extensive DNA testing of centuries of burials of this period at the Ladder Settlement in Yorkshire the only remains of overseas origin were those of 2 low status females. As for your nonsense about “Female” lines, that’s what mitochondrial DNA measures, the female line. It does exactly what it says on the tin. One also supposes that you have evidence that Mr Targett (Cheddar Mans Descendant) sprung to life without Parents, Brothers, Sisters, Uncles, Aunts etc. (Only 1 you said).

  99. Jai — on 1st July, 2009 at 5:52 pm  

    Roger,

    Since you’re having various arguments involving genetics hurled at you, the following may work in your favour. Take some time out to read through it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe

    Regarding the link supplied in #97, I will refrain from commenting on the considerable irony of a supporter of the BNP attempting to back up his assertions by exploiting information from a website run and authored by an American-Bangladeshi, although I’m sure Razib himself would find it amusing…..

  100. Jai — on 1st July, 2009 at 6:09 pm  

    a website run and authored by an American-Bangladeshi

    Or, indeed, a ‘Bangladeshi-American’ (to use the correct American naming convention).

    But I have no doubt that Mr Khan appreciates the publicity for his excellent blog nevertheless.

  101. 1mongrel — on 1st July, 2009 at 6:10 pm  

    Jai (99)”Regarding the link supplied in #97, I will refrain from commenting on the considerable irony of a supporter of the BNP attempting to back up his assertions by exploiting information from a website run and authored by an American-Bangladeshi, although I’m sure Razib himself would find it amusing…..”

    Think you’ll find that the belief that one side has all the truth and the other has all the lies is somewhat simplistic. You can find lies in The Guardian and Truth in The New Statesman (And Vice Versa). Where you will find very little in the way of truth is in the propaganda of the multikultiists.

  102. Guessedworker — on 1st July, 2009 at 6:14 pm  

    Jai,

    I know Razib Khan well. He is a desi nationalist, like all desis in America. That doesn’t disqualify the science he reports.

    However, if you prefer another source google “gene map Europe”.

    I note the link you supply is almost completely limited to Cavilli-Sforza’s rather ageing contribution. He used autosomal DNA to identify his five main components of genetic variation in Europe. African ancestry is not among them. Uralic ancestry, however, is.

    Does that make Europe’s peoples non-peoples, or an idea? According to Roger, yes. I think he is confused or mentally unstable, and I’m waiting to find out which.

  103. dave bones — on 1st July, 2009 at 8:43 pm  

    Guessedworker 80

    Sorry which half of me is doing what? As far as I am concerned immigration and migration is the history of mankind since the year dot.

  104. Guessedworker — on 1st July, 2009 at 9:20 pm  

    dave bones,

    It is common for people with even quite minor mixed-ethnicity like you to dis-identify with the native people, and work against them. You would by no means be the first to behave in such a way.

    As far as I am concerned immigration and migration is the history of mankind since the year dot.

    Well, you are worng. Evolution is the true history of Man, reflected in his bio-diversity.

    It is a disgusting idea – as racist as racist can get – to excuse English race-replacement as a “historical process”. It is a political process initiated by an internationalist elite who see Europe’s peoples as an obstruction to the movement towards World Government.

    The Asians and Africans who are flooding my ancestral land against the wish of my people are only here because powerful people deem it so.

    History has nothing to so with it. Wake up.

  105. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 12:31 am  

    I can’t see why people can’t celebrate their ethnic identity and welcome immigrants. Foreigners have been getting pissed in Munich every October for years. people smash plates in Greece, go to the bullfight in Spain. In Thailand everyone rocks up at the Muai Thai. It is a beautiful world full of beautiful people. More often than not people are born and die in the same place. Every so often people migrate.

    I am not working against anyone celebrating their culture.

  106. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 12:36 am  

    Is this International Elite bent on mixing the ethically pure Eurpoeans the same Zionist conspiracy some of the Muslims in Finsbury park used to tell me about?

  107. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 12:37 am  

    Europeans even (where did that spell checker go Sunny)

  108. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 12:38 am  

    Do you know Diane from Speakers Corner? She is right up your street.

  109. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 12:53 am  

    I grew up somewhere pasty white and I just prefer London. I can’t help it.

  110. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 1:01 am  

    I’m not going back.

  111. douglas clark — on 2nd July, 2009 at 3:35 am  

    Dave Bones,

    You have interesting stuff to say. Unlike our beloved Guessedworker, who is a moron.

    The English have been ‘race replaced’ since time immemorial. It is what makes the English, English. Mix and match has been the watchword throughout the centuries. Still, the ‘true bloods’ pretend a purity that cannot and does not exist. Frankly these folk, like Guessedworker are daft.

    Should any true born Englishwoman be told by tits like them that she is prohibited from falling in love with, say, an Asian, and having a family? That is the measure of their ideas. Placing prohibition in the face of love. Alabama in the ’50′s comes to mind.

    And how, exactly, would they implement it, without turning us into the New South Africa? Now that would be a joy unbeholden.

    I really hate morons like that.

    My best guess at their arguement is that their identity is cultural. These folk are unable to see even closely related folk, such as me and thee, as anything other than a threat to their stupidity because we do not subscribe to their cultural mores. We are race traitors.

    Well, fuck them.

  112. Roger — on 2nd July, 2009 at 5:35 am  

    “Where did I refer to blood group? Would you like to argue that genetic variation between kinship groups does not exist because blood groups are common to humanity?

    Don’t twist words.”
    Twist words, Guessworker? You gibber about “Blood is always exclusive, and English blood is no exception.”, and then complain when I discuss blood-differences in the form of blood groups to point out that blood isn’t exclusive. Related to Tony Hancock’s blood donor, are you?
    Of course differences between genetic kinship groups exist- and so do differences within genetic kinship groups. The human species is a genetic kinship group too and the genetic differences are less important than the cultural differences.

    [quote]There is no “genetic specifity” to Englishness.

    Google “gene map Europe”, or look here:

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/uploaded_images/nature07331-f1.2-774974.jpg

    … and never again argue that the English are the same as Rwandans – or even French and Irish![/quote]That’s a distribution map of Switzerland, actually and it’s impossible to say what it measures. However, I do not say there are no genetic differences between human groups. I do say that those differences are statistically significant, not individually, and useless as a way of determining nationality. The physical and genetic differences between English and Rwandan are much smaller than the cultural differences.

    “So far from being fragile and vulnerable, Englishness is protean and expansionary; it can swallow and transmogrify ideas, words, people from all over the world and make them English

    You are a very confused person. The English are not an idea or a word, not a culture – a truly absurd and insulting suggestion. We are a northern European kinship group. We are no different in our peoplehood than Jew or Turk or Afghan, and we enjoy the same natural interest in continuity that they do.”
    And interest in continuity means that an exclusive concern with Englishry or Turkishness or Jewishness merely means we will all go down together.
    In fact you choose examples that show the non-exclusivity of “nationhood”- Afghanistan is a country, but most Afghans regard themselves as members of particular tribes- Pushtun or Hazarta or Baluchi, for example- and share your concern for the tribe’s “national interest”. Like people with similar obsessions elsewhere- Rwanda, what was Yugoslavia, Somalia, Georgia, for example- concern with “national interests” has done far more harm to the people of those supposed nations than concern with common human interests. Turks include a large number of people descended from Greeks who chose to become Turks- adopted the Turkish language, become nominal muslims with related customs, for example- in order to continue living in what became Turkey after the fall of the Ottoman empire- so, by your definition of nationality- what are they, Turks or Greeks?
    The language we communicate in- English- is an example of the absorbent and expansionary nature of English culture. English culture- like the English language- has accepted or co-opted anyone it thought suitable to its ends. Benjamin Disraeli is as English as William Gladstone or Winston Churchill.

    “Rendering us an idea destroys us. You, it seems, wish to destroy us.

    What is your ethnicity? Why do you hate the English?”
    You really are off your rocker, aren’t you?

    “Ooh Roger (94), you seek to disinform. The Anglo Saxon Chronicles were written hundreds of years after the supposed “Invasion” and are fiction(Though I can see why you prefer it to science). ”
    And you are misinformed, 1mongrel, but then, that’s your usual condition. Apart from their accuracy as earlier history, up to about the ninth century, the Anglosaxon chronicles were being written and updated throughout the invasions by Danes, Norwegians and Normans in the tenth and eleventh centuries and record the settlement and imposition of power of these invaders. There they are contemporary documents and the Normans especially used policies of extermination, subjugation and intermarriage to impose their power on the “natives”. Parts of Norhern England- furthest from Norman power bases and closely connected with Scandinavia- were “harrowed” in a way that involved the exterminatiion of a large proportion of the population, especially those who had had power under and loyalty to the previous government.

    “There is no evidence for the replacement theory in either Archeology or DNA studies. During extensive DNA testing of centuries of burials of this period at the Ladder Settlement in Yorkshire the only remains of overseas origin were those of 2 low status females.”
    AS I said nothing about replacement, so what? Every set of incomers eventually end up as part of the general population with any differences a matter of triviality. That isn’t replacement but absorbtion.

    “As for your nonsense about “Female” lines, that’s what mitochondrial DNA measures, the female line. It does exactly what it says on the tin.”
    You don’t get DNA in tins, however, so it doesn’t. What is “nonsense” about what I said? I pointed out that Mr Targett’s direct female descendants had lived in the Cheddar Gorge area ten thousand years ago. As you say, that’s what mitochondrial DNA measures. That’s all it’s meant to measure.
    “One also supposes that you have evidence that Mr Targett (Cheddar Mans Descendant) sprung to life without Parents, Brothers, Sisters, Uncles, Aunts etc. (Only 1 you said).”
    Not at all. I simply point out that we have no information at all apart from public records and family history about any of Mr. Targett’s other relations or where their ancestors were ten thousand years ago. We know about only one of his many ancestors then. Do you disagree? If so, what is your evidence?

  113. Guessedworker — on 2nd July, 2009 at 8:21 am  

    dave,

    Smashing plates in a Greek restaurant is not the same as dispossessing, displacing, deracinating and demographically replacing an entire people.

    Where is your sense of values, where is your sense of scale. Where is your psychological depth? We are talking about a real genocide here, and all you can do is to praise nightclubs and food tourism! Are these banalities more important than the survival of a great people?

    Your stated preference for Africans and Asians (who don’t give a damn about you) over the “pasty” English (who do) vividly displays the conflict of ethnic interest that I was talking about. Are you English? Are you something else? Are you against the English?

    I don’t envy you. But be aware that something very terrible is happening to the English people with whom you do indeed share distinctive genes and ethnic interests, and you are siding with the destructive forces generating it. That’s not right. That’s not moral.

    How you resolve the problems in your worldview is up to you, of course. But I am calling you towards the profound attachment and away from a life of inconsequence. Please think on that.

  114. Guessedworker — on 2nd July, 2009 at 8:47 am  

    douglas clark,

    The English have been ‘race replaced’ since time immemorial. It is what makes the English, English.

    The English are the people of England. They are at least a millenia and a half old – compared, say, to non-Ashkenazic Jewry’s three millenia. Do the Sephardim and Mizrahim have a right to continuity? And if they do and the English don’t, why’s that? Are Middle-Eastern Jews a people but the English merely a capacious bag in which every gene can be stuffed?

    Are you racist?

    Denying the human right to life for any people is racist, pal. You wouldn’t do it to Palistinians or Kurds or Tamils or Zulus. You only do it to the English. And what does that make you?

    Should any true born Englishwoman be told by tits like them that she is prohibited from falling in love with, say, an Asian, and having a family?

    England’s children should all be told that they belong to the most creative and industrious branch of the most beautiful and valuable race on Earth. They should be told that miscegenating is harmful to our people’s genetic interests – which it is – and is to be disapproved of.

    This, I think, is the normal attitude which prevails across the world. Chinese don’t wish to be Africanised. Africans don’t wish to be Europeanised. Peoples are living organisms and all living organisms seek to maximise their genetic interests. That is a law of life (“prohibition” isn’t necessary, btw).

    Placing prohibition in the face of love. Alabama in the ’50’s comes to mind … We are race traitors

    OK, are you married to an Indian woman, and have offspring of mixed-blood? Do you see breaking the backs of the English people as an advantageous strategy for asserting your children’s ethnic interests? Is that all we’re talking about here … your selfish interests?

    And how, exactly, would they implement it, without turning us into the New South Africa?

    Here is a piece covering some of the principles involved:

    http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/to_do_what_we_must_to_remain_who_we_are/

    My best guess at their arguement is that their identity is cultural

    Er, no. It’s ethnic. The basis is EGI:

    http://majorityrights.com/images/uploads/EGI.pdf

  115. Jai — on 2nd July, 2009 at 8:54 am  

    Roger,

    Re: #112

    Good stuff.

    There’s a major article in the current issue of The Economist‘s “Intelligent Life” magazine supplement which I think you’ll find extremely interesting reading. It’s ostensibly about the original prehistoric exodus of one group of humans out of Africa and their subsequent expansion worldwide, but it also discusses many of the areas you’ve mentioned, including the fundamental unity & common ancestry of mankind as a species irrespective of superficial differences, along with the fact that ‘race’ in the orthodox sense is now practically an obsolete concept in modern, mainstream science (hence the comment on the front cover “We are all African now”). It’s quite a long article, but definitely worth you spending some time browsing through, and is also rigorously scientific, with the facts and assertions backed up by authoritative sources.

    It doesn’t seem to be available online yet but the magazine’s website mentions it (“Exodus”, by J.M. Ledgard), as it’s the cover story and this edition’s lead article. If you find it on sale anywhere (WHSmiths currently has it), do check it out. I’ve already read it, and I think you’ll enjoy it too.

    Link: http://www.moreintelligentlife.com/page/contents-summer-2009

  116. Guessedworker — on 2nd July, 2009 at 9:05 am  

    Roger,

    All the peoples of the world who share distinctive genes, be they tribes occupying a few hillsides or entire regions of the Earth, have a natural right to continuity. The English have a right not to be replaced demographically and destroyed genetically.

    Now, your attempts to prove that the English don’t exist demonstrate that you do, in fact, agree that peoples have the right to continuity. That’s good. So now we have to determine why you make an exception of the English.

    So, what acquired habit in the working of your brain prevents you from thinking about your tribe like any tribal member anywhere in the rest of the world? Your grandfather and great-grandfather were not afflicted in this way. You are suffering from a disease of the Postmodern Age. It has made you destructive towards your own people.

    When did you start thinking like this? How old were you? A child? At college? Do you feel guilt towards Africans for slavery, or Indians for colonialism, or Jews for the history of Germany between 1941 and 1945? Do you associate white skin with racism? Have you imbibed the Jewish academic deceit that there are no inborn differences, and the differences you do see are just “skin deep”?

    What is going on inside your head, Roger? That’s the question.

  117. Guessedworker — on 2nd July, 2009 at 9:21 am  

    Jai,

    The Economist is a globalist mag which supports the race-replacement of Europe at every turn. It is fully on-side with and dependent upon the power elite. But beyond that, the scientific community, which depends upon the wholly internationalist funding institutions, has been desperately trying to present itself as NOT discovering human bio-diversity while, at the same time, researching exactly that. Overt discussion of the group basis of human difference is verboten!

    This is the point of view of Razib Khan, who is a smart guy and is right about this. GNXP is dedicated to honesty in that respect, and I applaud Razib (and even GC) for that.

    Do you have many modern African relatives in India? I’ll bet you don’t. Further, if a few million Rwandans and Somalis moved into your home town, I’ll bet you wouldn’t start telling everyone there’s no such thing as race. Nope, suddenly you would discover that your genetic interests are being damaged in the way only the African male can damage other peoples genetic interests, and you would be making as big a noise as you possibly could.

    In other words, pal, you are a hypocrite when it comes to my land, because your interest here is in opposing my people at all costs. It is inevitable. You are an invader. You do not want us to throw you out.

    But poor Roger can’t see that … can’t see how you are playing him, while I want to free him, to get him to think independently for the first time in his life.

  118. Adnan — on 2nd July, 2009 at 9:42 am  

    FYI: the majorityrights blog also has (ahem) enlightening “facts” on the Holocaust. They’re not too difficult to find.

  119. munir — on 2nd July, 2009 at 9:57 am  

    “Do you have many modern African relatives in India?”

    There are communities of black people in India for example

    During Muslim rule in India they had an African Muslim ruler Malik Amber who was well loved by his people- something unprecedented elsewhere and a testament to Islams colour-blindness.

    A term for black people in Indo-pak is “shiddi” – these has become a term of abuse from racists but it actually originates in the honorific Muslim title Sidi (meaning master)

    the African origin Sidis of Gujurat
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddi

  120. munir — on 2nd July, 2009 at 9:59 am  

    Guessed worker
    “Nope, suddenly you would discover that your genetic interests are being damaged in the way only the African male can damage other peoples genetic interests, and you would be making as big a noise as you possibly could.”

    Im all for free spech; but this is repulsive

  121. 1mongrel — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:20 am  

    Roger (112) As you now freely admit The Anglo Saxon Chronicles date from the 9th Century. Their accuracy on matters of the 5th C. are therefore somewhat in doubt. You also now seem to admit that there is no evidence for the “Replacement” Theory and have withdrawn your claim that Mr Targett sprang out of thin air. Was there anything else? In future perhaps it would be better to keep your multikulti agitprop for a less discerning audience.

  122. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:26 am  

    Guessedworker-

    No mate. No no no no no.

    I am saying to you- fuck who you want. Basically. Fuck whoever you want. I want you to be happy. If you want to fuck pasty white chicks, go for it. I want your happiness.

    As far as cultural English purity, surely that was compromised by building an empire of dominance everywhere else over a few hundred years. When you look around the streets of London and Liverpool, none of this obvious wealth would have been if the English had stayed here growing cabbages and drinking real ale now would it?

    Surely when “we” started waking up to exploitation (and it is only a start) a wrong had to be put right. I mean Jamaica is far from perfect, but the opportunities Jamaicans have had to redress the serious hardship and forced displacement of their peoples by erm… the English and wankers like them is slowly making some changes in Jamcaica. It is.

    There is a lot of ethnic pride, even amongst the poor in Jamaica and it isn’t translated as ethic puritanism or racism. It is extremely homophobic, but, you know, nice try and all that.

    Its not that I can’t see what you are saying. I like Morris dancers, not in a biblical sense, but they are OK. A bit of morris dancing, a celebration amongst people who are generally white, it goes on. I saw it not a few weeks back in Wimborne, Dorset for example. I don’t think people looked worried, like they were being threatened with being displaced or anything. They were a bit annoyed that they couldn’t enjoy a pint outside whilst they were watching morris dancing this year, but that is another matter.

  123. 1mongrel — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:26 am  

    Guessedworker (117). “Do you have many modern African relatives in India? I’ll bet you don’t. Further, if a few million Rwandans and Somalis moved into your home town, I’ll bet you wouldn’t start telling everyone there’s no such thing as race. Nope, suddenly you would discover that your genetic interests are being damaged in the way only the African male can damage other peoples genetic interests, and you would be making as big a noise as you possibly could.”.

    I grew up in The Gujerat in the 1970s, at the time there was an influx of well educated South Indians “Stealing their jobs, houses, women etc.” Perhaps for the first time Hindu and muslim united against these “Blacks” and launched a fullscale pogrom, right down to the burning torches and murder. That these people see racism everywhere is no surprise.

  124. Guessedworker — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:29 am  

    munir,

    There are communities of black people in India for example

    Very small communities, perhaps 30,000 or 40,000 in total. So, to answer the point I raised with Jai, there aren’t millions of Rwandans and Somalis flooding right now into Jai’s home town, and demanding to be accepted as Indians?

    this is repulsive

    No it’s isn’t. It is all too true. Or are you completely unaware of what goes on in this life?

  125. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:29 am  

    The horse has bolted mate. Its long gone. Even the horse crap has dried and decomposed. the alternative is Bosnia mate. Bosnia here. I prefer people try and get along. Celebrate differences, sure, but get along.

  126. Guessedworker — on 2nd July, 2009 at 11:01 am  

    dave,

    fuck who you want

    This is very childish. Sexual tourism as the ultimate human value!

    cultural English purity

    I have not mentioned culture. The survival of the English is accomplished through the pursuit of our normal primary and secondary genetic interests.

    In general, you are extremely confused, and have a long way to go and a lot of things to sort out in your head before you see straight. One of them, I strongly suspect, is the conflation of “ray-cism” with our survival. This is a very evil idea that has been nurtured by people who mean us harm. It is not racist for us to survive as a people. It is racist to work against that survival.

    I hope that, in time, you will want to free yourself from the anti-English hatred which holds you in its thrall today. No sane man who has done so willingly returns to the darkness.

  127. Jai — on 2nd July, 2009 at 11:22 am  

    “Guessedworker”,

    I see that, as a BNP party theoretician, you have been busy discussing your opinions over the internet with various online counterparties for a number of years now and are fairly well-known. For the moment, we will refrain from addressing your persistent efforts to spread the cause of Holocaust denial, along with your entrenched hostility towards Jewish people in general. However, it was refreshing to see you acknowledge that sub-Saharan genetic material was present amongst Britons much earlier than the colonial period due to black Roman legionaries stationed here; it would certainly be interesting to see what DNA testing would reveal in the cases of people making claims about “10,000 years of solely indigenous, European ancestry”.

    Regarding your comments directed at me, along with your participation on this thread in general, you appear to be operating according to a number of misguided assumptions, as follows:

    1. The notion that I am interested in engaging in any kind of bilateral dialogue with you, constructive or otherwise. I assure you that this is not the case, so addressing any posts to me is a complete waste of time and energy on your part. This includes expecting a response to any remarks about my “home town”, considering that I was born right here in Britain and that, as a result, my home town is in this country, along with the fact that my “home” – literally, emotionally, intellectually and culturally – is the Western Hemisphere as a whole, just like the other 1.7 billion inhabitants of this part of the world. You’d be better off addressing those questions to someone who actually lives in India.

    2. The notion that anyone else has any kind of obligation to “convince” you personally of anything, including “proving that multiculturalism is good for the English”. You are greatly mistaken in this matter too. The fact that much of your grandstanding and pontificating on this thread has been responded to with silence and indifference is not a coincidence.

    3. The notion that you are in any kind of position to speak for “your” English people (“benighted” or otherwise, to use one of your descriptions), any more than Anjem Choudary and Al-Muhajiroun have any right to speak for or credibly represent Muslims in Britain, or the claims of Osama bin Laden, Ayman Al-Zawahiri and Al-Qaeda as a whole to speak for, represent, and act in the best interests of the global Muslim population. Indeed, you share striking similarities with Messrs Choudary and bin Laden along with Dr Al-Zawahiri on multiple levels, including making unilateral, unsolicited claims to speak for “your” people, along with your clinically paranoid, attention-seeking, insular, regressive, faux-victim grievance-driven worldview in general, right down to the very language you use and your fundamental personality traits.

    Even your persistent hectoring, insulting and emotional blackmailing of Roger in an attempt to “convert him to the great cause” in the age-old spirit of evangelical proselytisation, to make him see The Light just as you have, to make him shed bitter tears for his brothers and sisters who are apparently suffering so very, very much and whose very existence is under threat, to convince him that The Others, the unbelievers, the infidels, the heathens care nothing for him and actually secretly hate him, to convince him to “rejoin the fold” so that His True People can embrace him, everything finally forgiven.

    In fact, it doesn’t take a great leap of imagination to see you reading verbatim from a prepared script, sermonising and lecturing a non-existent and uninterested audience apart from a minority of fellow ideologues, a forefinger raised portentously in an attempt to underscore the alleged gravity of your assertions and opinions, occasionally jabbing accusingly towards the camera, the Union Jack (or perhaps you prefer St George’s flag ?) extravagantly displayed on the wall above, a “Citizen’s assault rifle” discreetly but pointedly resting next to you.

    However, I am sure that this is all making you feel tremendously important in the grand scheme of things. It is always good to believe that one has a purpose in life and is making a genuine difference in the world, so that one’s short existence on this earth would ultimately not be in vain.

    Unfortunately, sometimes this also involves a considerable degree of cognitive dissonance, particularly if it includes delusions of grandeur along with various identifiable psychiatric disorders. Something your fellow travellers Choudary, bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri are quite possibly also afflicted with. It looks like grandstanding, self-centredness, ignorance, bigotry and stupidity really are amongst the universal human constants, regardless of geographical location or ethnic, national or religious affiliation, and ironically it proves yet again that, ultimately, people are fundamentally the same irrespective of whoever or wherever they are.

    Nevertheless, I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your excellent contributions. Your participation has been extremely beneficial and you have unwittingly played your part perfectly.

  128. billericaydicky — on 2nd July, 2009 at 11:31 am  

    I think it is time to pull this tread back on track. Sunny was talking about taking on the BNP and we have now degenerated into a point scoring contest over genetics. The vast majority of BNP voters have no idea of what is being talked about here as does 99% of the population as a whole.

    What they are all concerned about is the rapid change that has taken place in their communities and their lives within a very short space of time and which happened without they being consulted in any way.

    Griffin no longer talks of genetics. He is shrewed enough to realise that this places him and his party in the biological racist camp of the Nazis and in the racial dead end of all of the radical right/neo nazi groups that have existed in this country since the end of the second world war.

    He has tailored his campaigns expertly and is only slightly hampered by his openly nazi leanings as a much younger man. e correctly understand that all politics is local and that people, even in seemingly large urban conurbations, are attathed to their areas and the social support networks that have been put together by family and friends over the years.

    Central and local government, almost invariably Labour, is seen as favouring minorities over the indigenous population. Equalities legislation is seen, very often quite rightly, as being anti white. Multiculturalism, we are told, enriches our societies. This of course means that mono cultural societies are impoverished which doesn’t say much for most of Africa and Asia!

    Local papers across the country are never short of stories about how some essential local service has been cut alongside another about how several millions have been found for race equality consultants or some scheme to promote “diversity and inclusion”.

    It is this multi culti race industry madness which needs to be addressed not a dead end argument about genetics. The concept of Britishness is cutural and will not be found in ridiculous arguments about the DNA of some Anglo Saxon.

  129. munir — on 2nd July, 2009 at 11:46 am  

    Guessed worker
    “Very small communities, perhaps 30,000 or 40,000 in total. So, to answer the point I raised with Jai, there aren’t millions of Rwandans and Somalis flooding right now into Jai’s home town, and demanding to be accepted as Indians?”

    There arent millions of Rwanda and Somalis flooding into the UK either so whats your point? The vast majority of Somalis and Rwandans are in neighbouring countries

  130. munir — on 2nd July, 2009 at 12:16 pm  

    billeracy dicky
    “This of course means that mono cultural societies are impoverished which doesn’t say much for most of Africa and Asia!”

    Youre a retard- Asian and African countries are far more multi-cultural than Britain – always have been- different cultures, languaes, religions etc for centuries

    In fact the world outside Europe is multi cultural- Europe has only caught up recently

  131. dave bones — on 2nd July, 2009 at 2:08 pm  

    Guessedworker

    You say tomayto I say tomato. You call it the pursuit of our normal primary and secondary genetic interests, I call it fucking.

    I have no hatred at all for the English. I don’t hate anyone. How could I hate half of myself. As I have said, fuck who you want. Its a free country. I won’t stop you. If you want to involve yourself with a white chick, for childish reasons or adult reasons I won’t stop you. None of this is confusing. I am not confused. I am OK. It is all light over here, the sun is shinning. Its not Bosnia, and I am happy.

  132. Chris Williams — on 2nd July, 2009 at 3:30 pm  

    Ger Francis looked for evidence to substantiate the charge that Respect is communalist. How about the flyer that came through my door the day before the Leicester south by-election, [p+p Respect, title: "what Ismail Patel really said"] uging me to vote for ‘Sister Yvonne’ and pointing out that I should do this because she was ‘the only Muslim candidate’?

    Chris Williams

  133. Anon — on 2nd July, 2009 at 4:11 pm  

    As Ger Francis has already pointed out on this thread, the essence of communalism is that it turns one community against another. Hindus against Muslims in India, Sinhalese against Tamils in Sri Lanka. Can Chris Williams point us to a single Respect leaflet that urges Muslims to adopt a hostile attitude towards non-Muslims? No, I thought not.

  134. Arif — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:35 pm  

    The anger of anti-racists towards each other on this thread seems a bit bonkers to me. The sectarianism seems like a pointless waste of energy, and surely the opposite of what City Circle would have intended.

    What Sunny suggests may play into the hands of racists, or maybe what Respect suggests does not address underlying concerns. Maybe both. But I don’t believe either is actually in league with racist supremacism.

    To me, you seem like you all just have different sensitivities to different forms of alienation and oppression. We should be helping each other understand them, not competing with each other to argue that one form of alienation is more real than another and pursuing strategies which wear each other out fighting one another.

    I understand it is time consuming to continually try to understand other people’s perspectives sympathetically. But I think it is time wasting to continually be at each others throats in this way.

    But I may have got the tone wrong, maybe you are all just mates having a banter! In which case, what I meant to say was: “Sunny, I reckon you want to make Britishness seem inclusive, because you want people who are already attached to Britishness be more inclusive. There is no real point trying to make people who are already inclusive also feel they are British. And there is little chance of converting many people who are both exclusive and don’t feel British. And the way you are going about it, most likely you will alienate all three types. You’ll be the only Brit-believer left”

  135. Chris Williams — on 2nd July, 2009 at 10:59 pm  

    Anon@133, you are defining ‘communalism’ so tightly that very few organisations would qualify. Me, I think that an invitation explicitly aimed at adherents of one religion to vote for their candidate on the basis of her religion fits the bill. If you don’t think that this is a problem – whatever you want to call it – then you are a bit of an idiot.

  136. Sunny — on 2nd July, 2009 at 11:37 pm  

    There is a problem however Arif.

    I firmly believe that not all of this is down to material inequality and deprivation. For me, the culture and identity question matters a fair bit, and that’s an issue some like Salma Yaqoob and the socialists don’t want to go near.

    As long as they stay out of my way then it’s fine with me. The tide of opinion and history is going my way anyway. My only point about Respect was that it was a narrow communalist agenda and its collapse has shown it to be sectarian and a short-lived project. That isn’t just opinion but fact (the last bit).

    I’m not really interested in getting involved in that sectarianism. But I can’t sit by and let this glorifying of Galloway off that easily :)

  137. Denim Justice — on 3rd July, 2009 at 12:18 am  

    @134 Brilliant comment, Arif.

  138. Roger — on 3rd July, 2009 at 3:11 am  

    “All the peoples of the world who share distinctive genes, be they tribes occupying a few hillsides or entire regions of the Earth, have a natural right to continuity. The English have a right not to be replaced demographically and destroyed genetically.”
    All the peoples of the world share distinctive genes, Guessworker. That’s what makes us human. Nor does intermating destroy the few genes which vary among humans. It alters their distribution, as your example of the Cape Coloured community shows. However, an important thing about genes- the reason we are genetically humans- is that they do alter naturally- spontaneous mutation it’s called- and replace themselves. Everyone is a mixture of their parents’ genes and some innovations.

    “Now, your attempts to prove that the English don’t exist demonstrate that you do, in fact, agree that peoples have the right to continuity. That’s good. So now we have to determine why you make an exception of the English.”
    Eh? I have not tried to prove that the English don’t exist. I have pointed out that the English do exist and that your attempted definition of “the English” as people with a particular and fixed set of unspecified genetic characteristics is absurd. Nor do I think that peoples have the right to continuity. Nothing has the right to continuity because it is impossible to stop change.

    “So, what acquired habit in the working of your brain prevents you from thinking about your tribe like any tribal member anywhere in the rest of the world? Your grandfather and great-grandfather were not afflicted in this way. You are suffering from a disease of the Postmodern Age. It has made you destructive towards your own people.

    When did you start thinking like this? How old were you? A child? At college? Do you feel guilt towards Africans for slavery, or Indians for colonialism, or Jews for the history of Germany between 1941 and 1945? Do you associate white skin with racism? Have you imbibed the Jewish academic deceit that there are no inborn differences, and the differences you do see are just “skin deep”?

    What is going on inside your head, Roger? That’s the question.”
    You really are a piece of work, Guessworker. It’s easy to tell what’s going on in your head: a foetid stew of paranoia, ignorance and delusions. For all your insistence on the specificity and fragility of “the English”, you have never said just who “the English” are. Just who are “the English” in your view, then? Just what are their unique and defining characteristics that have the right to continuity? When did “the English” become established as “the English”? What degree of unEnglish anceatry excludes people from “the tribe”? What should be done about such people? Do they lose the right to continuity that you say everyone possesses?
    In fact, you’re on the wrong forum and in the wrong country. Your obsession with suppsedly unique ancestral characteristics is more common in other countries- Rwanda, Somalia, Serbia, Croatia are examples. They delight in quibbling about who is a proper member of the tribe and who isn’t and taking drastic measures to keep the tribe pure. And that same shared obsession is one of the reasons the recent history of those countries has been so disastous.

    “Roger (112) As you now freely admit The Anglo Saxon Chronicles date from the 9th Century. Their accuracy on matters of the 5th C. are therefore somewhat in doubt. You also now seem to admit that there is no evidence for the “Replacement” Theory and have withdrawn your claim that Mr Targett sprang out of thin air. Was there anything else? In future perhaps it would be better to keep your multikulti agitprop for a less discerning audience.”
    Come on. 1mongrel, where did I ever claim that there was a replacement of previous populations by immigrants? You’re the one who’s worried about “the English” being replaced. What I pointed out is that incoming populations add their genes to the previously settled population. With military conquest there was eplacement of elites and the invaders were in a privileged position and so added more genes to the general pool.
    I do not claim Mr Targett sprang out of thin air. I merely point out that we know only that only one of his many ancestors lived near Cheddar Gorge ten thousand years ago.
    The Anglosaxon Chronicle does not date from the ninth century. That is when it- or rather they- was begun using previous records, oral and written. The record continued until the twelfth century and includes contemporary records of the Scandinavian and Norman invasions in that time and- especially- of the systematic cultural and physical genocide practised by the Normans. I specifically cited that, so i don’t know why you are so concerned with the fifth century.

    Again, like Guessworker, your concern about “the English” does not go so far as saying just who they are. You mention a woman who was alive ten thousand years ago. Now this was over eight thousand years before the people most people think of as “the English” came to what would eventually become England, so was she English? What of the many peoples who arrived since that time? Are their descendants not English too? Are the people most people think of as “the English” actually unEnglish? How do you tell who is English according to your still unspecified definition?

  139. Roger — on 3rd July, 2009 at 3:15 am  

    For an early argument that there is no genetic exclusivity to Englishness, take a look at Defoe’s The True Born Englishman: http://www.luminarium.org/editions/trueborn.htm

  140. 1mongrel — on 3rd July, 2009 at 8:55 am  

    Roger (138) A fool can ask a question that 100 wise men cannot answer and unfortunately those that believe they set the agenda keep asking the questions. “Who are the English”? Whoever they want to be, same as The Pakistanis, The Indians and The Hottentots. (Still at least the question is being asked now, after decades of insistence that there was no such thing as The English). A few thousand Normans ruling England had as little effect on the English Genome as the few thousand Britons ruling India had on the Indians, for the same reason.

  141. Ger Francis — on 3rd July, 2009 at 10:07 am  

    Sunny says that Salma Yaqoob is not communalist but that George Galloway is. At least he is right about Salma. But this is a very serious allegation to make. To prove it he needs to show evidence of George actually attempting to pit communities against one another. The least he can do is either substantiate it, redefine exactly what he means by it, or have the political honesty to withdraw it.

    Sunny’s jibes about Respect are infantile. It speaks volumes that he gets more upset by George Galloway than he does about the war- mongering, racist pandering Gordon ‘British jobs for British workers/local homes for local people’ Brown. Next May’s elections will give insight into Respect’s future. But I am confident of the outcome. We have a have a small but real social base. We have made quite remarkable progress for a new political party in a first-past-the-post electoral system. In electoral terms we are very young, have overcome an attempt to split and destroy us and are still very much in the game. Respect is not going away.

  142. Ger Francis — on 3rd July, 2009 at 10:12 am  

    There is a serious discussion to be had on how to best respond to the BNP breakthrough. I welcome the conclusion from Searchlight that they underestimated the racism of BNP voters. Anti-immigrant, asylum-seeker and anti-Muslim racism have gone deep. The solution is not to pander more to these views by making concessions to ignorant and bigoted attitudes dressed up as ‘local concerns’. (Margaret Hodge MP, Anne Cryer MP and now Gordon Brown with his ‘local homes…’ exemplify this disastrous approach).

    Nor is the fight against racism much helped by debates on ‘white identity’ (just look at this thread), nor by those who, under the pretext of not being ‘afraid’ to raise ‘awkward issues’ actually reinforce negative stereotypes. (It was not only some of the politics and sheer self aggrandizement behind Sunny’s New Generation Network that I found irksome – where ever did it go, by the way? – it was also the puffed up phony bravado. It takes no courage in this climate to lay into Muslim ‘community leaders’ and organisations. Quite the opposite in fact).

    These strategies invariably cede ground to the fascists. Instead, we need a united and uncompromising assault on the lies behind the BNP scapegoating of immigrants and asylum seekers, a consistent defense of the Muslim community and no pandering to Islamaphobia, anti-fascist public mobilizations and community organising, and a relentless expose of the Nazi ideology at the heart of the BNP.

  143. Roger — on 3rd July, 2009 at 10:31 am  

    Well, 1mongrel, the fact that you cannot or will not aanswer a question that is at the basis of your beliefs doesn’t show that you are wise.
    ” “Who are the English”? Whoever they want to be, same as The Pakistanis, The Indians and The Hottentots.”
    Precisely: and whoever wants to be English is English.
    “A few thousand Normans ruling England had as little effect on the English Genome as the few thousand Britons ruling India had on the Indians, for the same reason.”
    I didn’t say that few thousand Normans ruling England affected the English Genome. For one thing, I don’t think there is an English Genome. What I said was that a few tens of thousands of Normans in a position of privilege intermating with the previous inhabitants over a long period affected the English genetic pool, just as previous Norwegian and Danish immigrants had and just as the English immigrants and earlier immogrants affected the genetic pool by mating with the previous inhabitants. The British in India began by intermarrying enthusiastically with the natives and continued to do so while they ruled India despite the fact that the British administration did all they could do discourage it. However, they were a much smaller proportion of the population than the Normans were in mediaeval England.

  144. hantsboy — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:00 am  

    I have voted BNP and will continue to do so,but all this racial purity stuff doesn’t bother me.
    What does matter is that the core element of the indigenous population who ,yes, happen to be white Caucasians keep their cultural and economic dominance in their ancestral homeland.
    Can’t be much wrong with that can there ?

    I imagine many inhabitants of Asian countries feel the same way too.

  145. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:00 am  

    Guess worker and Ger Francis -

    The common bonds of humanity do escape you both as do the premise of Sunny’s argument about being British.

    I find that both BNP and Respect are thoroughly anti British in their stances and when they choose to speak for their own people – as Jai and Roger have articulated very well — they are actually talking about a bunch of loonies living in a delusional world.

    While the BNP claims they speak for the “indigenous” population they speak for bigots and similarly, while Ger Francis tries to imply that Respect speaks for the British Muslims — they are doing exactly the same.

    So tell me again why should I or anyone else take you idiots seriously?

  146. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:08 am  

    hello Hantsboy -

    Ever heard about the G20 meeting that took place just a few months ago and something we the British should be proud of. But obviously, your lack of comprehension about how the world economy works in today’s age and how our public services currently are being funded by foreigners makes you come up with this utter nonsense.

    You voted BNP because you are thick and you have no real love for your country or its people. It has been driven by ignorance.

    Interestingly, as many have pointed out on many threads, Britain is a white majority country and the judeo-christian values do dominate us culturally. And, economic spectrum suggests the same. So what is your beef?

    But if you could have articulated an answer to that question withour delusional logic then you would not have voted for the BNP.

    Again why does the common bond of humanity escape all idiots?

    But again

  147. hantsboy — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:14 am  

    Shamit- so no open discussion here then.

    Or perhaps you can’t tolerate views other than your own ?

    Get used to it.
    The rest of the world has to.

  148. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:25 am  

    I have no issues with an open debate and discourse.

    However, I am yet to hear any real argument from you except for your two liners which does nothing but sprout BNP talking points without any substance.

    And, slapping this stupid rhetoric down have been really easy for almost all regular contributors — and it has become boring and a waste of everyone’s time.

    So if you are really up for a debate then why don’t you start off with – what are the key characteristics of being British and do the BNP represent those values?

    Those who support BNP talk about this being a Christian nation — Christianity teaches us compassion and love for fellow human beings. Have you ever read the parable of the Good Samaritan — How does the BNP rhetoric meet those fundamental basics of Christianity?

    You want a debate – lets have one. Could we have some answers please?

  149. damon — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:35 am  

    I think I disagree with Ger Francis.
    If Anne Cryer’s views are popular amongst people, should we then just ignore them?

    I would like to hear more (not less) of Sunny’s ‘point 3′ at the top of this thread, about ”Taking on the issue of identity and culture that the BNP use to win votes.”

    I understand the hard left uncompromising stance taken two posts above, but it’s just not that popular amongst everyday people.

    In Croydon high street on saturday, the people of Croydon were roundly ignoring the guys from the Socialist Party who had set out a stall and were selling their newspaper there. I bought a paper and had a quick chat, and pointing to the people out shopping in the sunshine, asked them if they ever thought they were wasting their time.

    If ”community leaders” say daft things ..like the chairman of the Birmingham Central Mosque did when he said a couple of years ago that ” Muslims were being labelled as a threat like the Jews were under Adolf Hitler”, then I think it’s fine to criticise that view.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1319076.ece

    About the third paragraph in 142. I’d say that we have to define islamophobia … and agree that you can’t go conceeding anything to the BNP. But you might have to answer some questions that some people might ask.
    For example, what do you say to someone who says that they don’t enjoy being in the kind of higly multi-cultural neighbourhoods that many of our cities now have?
    Should everyone have to like Camberwell, Brixton, West Croydon, Whitechapel, Tottenham and Walthamstow? (in London).

    I have family members who don’t go to those places because they seem outside of the life that my family members live. (But for me they are some of my favourite neighbourhoods).

    When I drive up between Camberwell and the Elephant and Castle in the morning, and see the queue outside the post office, it’s a bit sad to see the elderly people standing there (of what ever race). The area used to be very much white working class, and now it’s as diverse as anywhere I can think of.
    (With many of the problems that can come with that)
    I would imagine that the people who vote BNP don’t like its present reality.
    So we just call them fascists and tell them to hurry up and die?
    Actually, maybe that is the way foreward. The kids at very multi-cultural schools seem much more well-rounded about this new society.

  150. Chris Williams — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:38 am  

    Ger wrote:

    “we need a united and uncompromising assault on the lies behind the BNP scapegoating of immigrants and asylum seekers, a consistent defense of the Muslim community and no pandering to Islamaphobia, anti-fascist public mobilizations and community organising, and a relentless expose of the Nazi ideology at the heart of the BNP.”

    And, although I think that the Respect project was a communalist endeavour for reasons that I’ve spelt out above, I have no problems with the above as part of a programme for action.

    But we need more IWCA as well.

  151. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:57 am  

    Respect is not going away.

    Unfortunately Southasian communalism never has.

  152. 1mongrel — on 3rd July, 2009 at 12:06 pm  

    Roger (143) No, you’re not quite getting it. Whoever The English want them to be is not a licence for self declaration, The English themselves have the final say and a coalition of ethnic bigots and Stalinist white social engineers, projecting their own hatreds, have no say in the matter, no matter how many childish questions they ask. Look at California and the overturning of the Sotomeyer decision on the NY Firemen. Your time is done, your questions as irrelevant as angels on a pinhead.

  153. hantsboy — on 3rd July, 2009 at 12:31 pm  

    You want a debate – lets have one. Could we have some answers please?

    Shamrit

    Debate is simply about survival.

    The survival of my people – the indigenous white British.

    Globalisation has hit the wall. End of that story.

    Start of a new future for my people – the English in my case .
    What about yours ?

  154. Roger — on 3rd July, 2009 at 12:43 pm  

    “Whoever The English want them to be is not a licence for self declaration, The English themselves have the final”
    Whoever the English want who to be, 1mongrel?
    If you mean “Whoever wants to be English is not a matter for self-declaration.” then the English, by your definition, whoever they are, aren’t English, because their claim is merely a matter of self-declaration.
    If that isn’t what you mean, what do you mean?

  155. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 12:53 pm  

    What future dear Hantsboy?

    Equivalent to all those who believed in Griffin’s black counterpart Mugabe.

    Why do you hate the English so much that you want them to suffer such a bleak future?

    I am getting worried about your sanity my dear boy

  156. Roger — on 3rd July, 2009 at 12:54 pm  

    Sorry, above should read:
    “Whoever The English want them to be is not a licence for self declaration, The English themselves have the final say”

    Whoever the English want who to be, 1mongrel?
    If you mean “Whoever wants to be English is not a matter for self-declaration.” then the English, by your definition, whoever they are, aren’t English, because their claim is merely a matter of self-declaration.
    If that isn’t what you mean, what do you mean?

  157. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 1:01 pm  

    “Look at California and the overturning of the Sotomeyer decision on the NY Firemen”

    Get your facts right.

    What is going on in California? you mean the gay marriage constitutional ammendment — how does the race factor come into play in that one I would really like to understand

    On the NY fireman — I am sure you mean the New Haven which happens to be in the State of CT not NY. What makes you think the vast majority of the independent voters who actually define an election agree with the 2nd court of Appeals decision.

    Interestingly, equality of opportunity was the principle that got thwarted in this case and those are views most intelligent people hold dear irrespective of their race, colour, creed or religion.

    But when you live in a make believe world its hard to comprehend mongrel.

    The thickos unite under the banners of white power while supporting policies that condemn the “indigenous” population to a third world existance —

    Do some reading

  158. Roger — on 3rd July, 2009 at 1:02 pm  

    “The survival of my people – the indigenous white British.”

    Just who are the indigenous white British, Hantsboy? Are those who came from Europe in the twentieth century? What of the jews who came in the nineteenth century? What of the Hugoenots? What of the descendants of black immigrants since the seventeenth century whose escendants are indistinguishable from their supposedly white neighbours? What of the Flemings who came in the fourteenth century? What of the Irish, who can claim to be more indigenous than most of the population? Are they, with the Welsh, Cornish and northern Scots entitled to demand the removal of descendants of all immigrants since Caesar came in 55 B.C.?
    How long do peoples’ ancestors have tp have lived here before they become indigenous?

  159. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 1:14 pm  

    someone please fix the edit function — please

  160. hantsboy — on 3rd July, 2009 at 1:20 pm  

    Just who are the indigenous white British, Hantsboy?

    Roger
    They are the core white indigenous population of course.
    I’m not going to waste time going on about racial purity and don’t give a damn if someone had an Indian or Jewish ancestor.

    But walk through the towns and villages of Britain and you will see and recognise them irrespective of who some of their ancestors may have been.

    They also consider themselves part of the original historic core population again irrespective of some odd ancestor who got into their genes.

    These people matter and will vote BNP if they have to.
    Talk of globalisation ain’t going stop them either.
    Not when they are losing their livelihoods to it.

  161. dave bones — on 3rd July, 2009 at 2:23 pm  

    Respect is not going away

    Respect have gone away. Its not Respect capitalising on the demise of the mainstream parties over expenses is it Ger, its the BNP. Hence the City Circle meeting in the bloody first place.

  162. damon — on 3rd July, 2009 at 3:16 pm  

    Can we just take it as read now that hantsboy has given the definitive answer on grounds for racial purity?
    BNP type people are really not that interested if they are 100% ‘pure’.
    I said as much myself a few weeks ago, and so has billericaydicky.

    So the big thing about BNP people having ancestors from outside these islands (or even gipsy in Nick Griffin’s case) should cease to be a point that is continually brought up.
    They just don’t care that much.

    I know that it’s hard to leave this ‘bone’ alone – but (I’m affraid to say) it’s like hantsboy says.

    And I’ve known enough of them over the years – half my old football going mates were like that.
    Generally racist, but could also easily make exceptions.

    What I think these people dislike is knowing a place …. like for example, Billericay (just outside London in Essex)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billericay

    and then comparing it with places like Barking and Dagenham (and Newham) a few miles back inside London.

    I think that this is the juxtaposition arond which the BNP mindset is working.

    Of course they’re thick and not able to fully undrstand why Billericay seems a quintessential English market town. A place that must be defended for John Major’s scatty view in 1993:
    ”Fifty years on from now, Britain will still be the country of long shadows on cricket grounds, warm beer, invincible green suburbs, dog lovers and pools fillers and, as George Orwell said, ‘Old maids bicycling to holy communion through the morning mist’ and, if we get our way, Shakespeare will still be read even in school. ”

    But they then go back into London and around Barking and Dagenham, and then around places like East Ham.
    This is the journey that your east London BNP sympathiser does every day, as part of the way he makes his living. (‘Black Taxi’ driver and ‘white van man’ and those other dodgey stereotypes that are sometimes used against the white working class).

    What causes inner city places like East Ham and Leytonstone High Streets to look so scruffy, when compared to Billericay?

    I’m sure there are a lot of perfectly reasonable explanations for it. (It’s all about local wealth and rateable value for high street shops, and poverty) and lots of other things.
    (Like community perhaps?)

  163. 1mongrel — on 3rd July, 2009 at 4:02 pm  

    Shamit (157) Should have read todays papers before you project your lack of knowledge onto other posters, California’s just gone bankrupt. Also the only “White Supremacists” I know are the brown people who flock to white countries (Bankrupting them in the process).

  164. 1mongrel — on 3rd July, 2009 at 4:05 pm  

    Roger (156) Perhaps in terms you might understand “Inclusivety” cannot be imposed by those outside of that they wish to be included in.

  165. Shamit — on 3rd July, 2009 at 4:28 pm  

    Hang on Mongrel — your stupidity is now irking me.

    The Calfornia budget went bankrupt because of the loony left legislature which would rather protect the interests of the Public sector worker unions than citizens. And guess what most of the legislators are overwhelmingly white.

    It had nothing to do with race buddy.

  166. Yahya Birt — on 3rd July, 2009 at 4:28 pm  

    Genetics has completely blown away any scientific basis for the very idea of races. Across all humanity, genetic variation is quite wide (more so than that, say, between chimpanzees), but that genetic variation doesn’t map onto “racially” or “culturally” marked groups at all, but within and between them. And an argument about ancient descent, or the Cheddar Man argument, doesn’t cut it either, but that’s no reason not to enjoy, celebrate, preserve and re-imagine Englishness, but why the hell make it exclusive? That goes for anyone else’s “culture” as well. Cultures exist between the culture police and the cultural travellers, a bit like those who write dictionaries and those who make up new words.

    So all this conflict is just about culture at the end of the day. You have to wonder if Griffin believes all this genetics/descent stuff underneath his focus on cultures he doesn’t like and the culture he wants to protect and argues in under siege. Muslims sometimes feel under siege. But what about people coming out of their bunkers/fortresses/comfort zones?

    In my personal view, I’m happy to stand with anyone who opposes racism, but I couldn’t argee with the idea on grounds of either feasibility or indeed ethical grounds that you can build a wider party political coalition on Muslim identity politics in this country. It’s just not going to happen. The anti-war movement was one thing, and the two shouldn’t really be mixed together.

    Despite years of growth before the Credit Crunch, sections of our society have felt or were left out, neglected, cut off. The great parties have served the reasonably comfortable and large middle ground with managerial post-Cold War non-ideological politics, tinkering with a system of welfare capitalism. It works well enough for most, but what about those at the margins: people have obviously been checking out. We can rightly slam people for making bad or wrong choices, or for spuriously blaming others for their lot, but there are other factors, e.g. as the main parties have occupied a centre ground they were less able to incorporate people from the more radical edges of the political spectrum. And so as a result we see small parties expressing the alienation of sectors of society.

    So how to address genuine grievances and debunk spurious ones, own up to failures of (often local) government, think about balancing political priorities between those who are doing OK and those who aren’t at all, think about how empowerment into the political mainstream can work better, and figure out how to reinvigorate Britishess (or if Scotland goes independent, Englishness) as a civic and political identity. Not an easy task but that’s the one ahead of us.

  167. Ger Francis — on 3rd July, 2009 at 6:31 pm  

    ‘If Anne Cryer’s views are popular amongst people, should we then just ignore them?’

    No. Just don’t pander to them.

    ‘For example, what do you say to someone who says that they don’t enjoy being in the kind of highly multi-cultural neighbourhoods that many of our cities now have?’

    If people don’t like living in inner-city areas because too many of their neighbours are non-white, I would say that is a good indicator of racial intolerance! Although, in general, support for the fascists tends not to be in the inner-city multi-racial areas, but in the more homogeneous white ones. It is easier to be racist the more desensitised you are from the people who bear the consequences of that racism. The growth areas for the BNP are not in the likes of Elephant and Castle, contrary to what damon might believe. I live in Sparkbrook ward in Birmingham, where the local councillors are Respect and where, if you follow the ‘communalist’ charges levelled against Respect, you would expect to see a growth in BNP support as a reaction. Yet their share of the vote for the last three years has been very poor. Multicultural Britain is a growing success story.

    I have not seen the leaflet Chris Williams makes reference to. If Yvonne Ridley was the only Muslim candidate in the race I don’t necessarily see something wrong in bringing it to the attention of Muslim voters. Jewish politicians do this all the time. The Conservative’s in Sparkbrook ran a Bengali candidate a few years ago who made great claim that he was from that specific community. And considering the very low number of councillors from Bengali background in the council, fair enough. Nobody, quite rightly, called them ‘communalist’ for so doing. If we want the term to have any real meaning, as opposed to being a lazy smear, you have to come up with evidence of racial or religious incitement. None of those on this site who throw the term about, especially Sunny, can fulfil this basic criteria for the simple reason that there is no evidence to be found.

    Respect was shaped by, and emerged out of, an anti-war movement that emphasised unity and solidarity between Muslims and non-Muslims, not the opposite. (Since I am on the theme, Respect is also the only party in South Birmingham to quite consciously tackle anti-Semitism in the Muslim community. It was a running theme in when Salma chaired the big Birmingham Gaza demo and ditto when George spoke to a 600 strong public meeting in Sparkbrook. More generally, as part of trying to insulate the entire community against the BNP’s racist virus, Salma has issued 10,000 leaflets in her ward with a photo of herself and the late Jewish Holocaust survivor, Leon Greenman, reminding people of where BNP fascist race hatred can lead.)

    Finally, I don’t have an issue with open and frank discussion about comments by Muslim leaders:

    http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/yaqoob-shows-respect-for-official-77-version-0207091.html

    and Respect is the only party to have openly exposed the abuses of the postal vote system inside South Asian communities and the way a whole layer of people are complicit in it:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/may/02/thesecrettosuccess

    I do have a problem with an ideological agenda which seeks to demonise any Muslim political figure as a sinister ‘Islamist’ just because they happen to be outspoken on the impact of US/UK foreign policy. This is the method of the Cold War warriors who sought to label anyone critical of American foreign policy as a ‘Red’. In the eyes of this government, neo-con stooges like Harry’ Place, Martin Bright and those who hang on their coat-tails, in essence the only ‘good Muslim’ is one that toes the government line. Not only does this add to a general Islamaphobic climate, it is also more likely to increase the appeal of the genuine ‘extremists’ inside the Muslim community. If, under the guise of ‘preventing extremism’, a culture of ideological fear, intimidation and self censorship become the norm, the issues many Muslims feel strongly about like the impact of the ‘war on terror’, foreign policy, anti-Muslim racism etc, will find other, more underground outlets, to be held in, hosted by people with genuinely reactionary agendas.

  168. MoreMediaNonsense — on 3rd July, 2009 at 7:02 pm  

    “In the eyes of this government, neo-con stooges like Harry’ Place, Martin Bright and those who hang on their coat-tails, in essence the only ‘good Muslim’ is one that toes the government line.”

    What a load of lying hysterical garbage. Criticising the kind of Islamists Respect associates with (eg Dr Nassem of Birmingham Central Mosque, a past Respect candidate and now noted 7/7 conspiricist) is a public service. To conflate this with being “Islamophobic” is the kind of disgusting propaganda you get from far Left hacks like Ger Francis.

    Mind you he’s in a party that has Galloway as leader. What more do you need to know.

  169. 1mongrel — on 3rd July, 2009 at 7:51 pm  

    Shamit “Hang on Mongrel — your stupidity is now irking me.”

    Oh dear, what a shame. You’d better get used to it because a whole new (Old) mathematics is coming to the fore. People are beginning to put numbers on the REAL cost of immigration and it ain’t pretty. The Express put it at 30 Billion for the UK this week. Californian Public Servants getting IOUs instead of wages whilst their expensive Hospitals and Prisons accomodate mainly illegal immigrants. Diversity or Dollars? Crossrail or “Communities”? NHS or WORLDHS?

    Time for some Kipling I think-

    The Gods of the Copybook Headings

    ——————————————————————————–

    AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
    I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
    Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

    We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
    That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
    But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
    So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

    We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
    Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
    But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
    That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

    With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
    They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
    They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
    So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

    When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
    They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
    But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”

    On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
    (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
    Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”

    In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
    By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
    But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”

    Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
    And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
    That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
    And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

    As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
    There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
    That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
    And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

    And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
    When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
    As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
    The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

  170. Adnan — on 3rd July, 2009 at 8:37 pm  

    1mongrel @169 – please can you provide a link to the Daily Express article, or a summary of how they got to the £30 billion cost to the UK this week ? It’s the cost due to immigration, right ?

  171. dave bones — on 3rd July, 2009 at 8:54 pm  

    Ger Francis- You live in Sparkbrook? I lived there like about 20 years ago. I loved it down there. That is what about 90% Pakistani and 10% students? We had such a laugh living there.

  172. dave bones — on 3rd July, 2009 at 8:55 pm  

    I am not suprised that is a safe Respect seat.

  173. Ger Francis — on 3rd July, 2009 at 9:52 pm  

    Dave could do with shaking some of the racism out of his bones. Apparently all non-white people in Sparkbrook look like Pakistani’s to him.

    Pakistani’s actually make up 44% and whites 20%:

    http://www.birminghameconomy.org.uk/wards/wardspa.htm

    C’mon MMS, Harry’s Place is just rabidly anti-Muslim. Sorry, I mean rabidly ‘anti-Islamist’. And Martin Bright, while not as crass and offensive, sings pretty much from the same hymn sheet.

  174. dave bones — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:04 pm  

    OK if you say I am racist I must be racist or no good at statistics. What is wrong with being Pakistani?

  175. 1mongrel — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:06 pm  
  176. A Councillor Writes — on 3rd July, 2009 at 11:09 pm  

    Ger Francis’ data is somewhat out of date and the building blocks for it are not entirely accurate due to boundary changes in 2004.

    There has been further demographic change since 2001. An analysis of the 2008 electoral register for Sparkbrook (which is a trailing indicator of populace) indicates that 71% of the voters are probably from South Asian background and that approximately 66% of voters are from a Muslim background. However, the voters from a Muslim background are from a large number of different backgrounds – for instance a long established Yemeni community. The area certainly isn’t 90% Pakistani, but it probably isn’t much above 12-5% white these days.

    As for Respect being the first party to expose the abuses of the postal voting system, then what, pray was all the kerfluffle in 2003/4 raised by John Hemming about?

  177. Don — on 4th July, 2009 at 1:24 am  

    Nice poem. I like a bit of Kipling now and then.

  178. Ger Francis — on 4th July, 2009 at 8:33 am  

    Re 176. Your stats confirm my basic point.

    Re postal voting; if we are being totally accurate, it is the Peoples Justice Party who should receive the praise for first really bringing the issue into the public domain. Salma was the first to expose the way it was disenfranchising women and young people in particular. And it was her initiative that got all party agreement calling for a Birmingham opt-out from at the next election:

    http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/yaqoob-wins-backing-for-postal-vote-ban-2407081.html

  179. damon — on 4th July, 2009 at 9:28 am  

    Ger Francis @ 167.
    ”If people don’t like living in inner-city areas because too many of their neighbours are non-white, I would say that is a good indicator of racial intolerance!”
    Yes it is a good indicator, but if ‘we’ are to undermine the BNP, I think we have to take the arguement a bit further than this. It’s more than simply about race. It’s also about community and integration. You said that community was so important to many South Asian people in Birmingham, and that can work all-ways (cant it?) The white working class populations left in the likes of Camberwell and Elephant and Castle may feel like their community has withered and died somewhat over the years. A lot of people move away and leave the less dynamic part of the population to get on with the reality of the new society. By the way, I wasn’t suggesting that the BNP had large support in areas like that. In fact when you see the kids coming out from school in places like that and in New Cross (near Millwall’s football ground) you see that white people look like a minority in the area. At least with those with school aged children.

    If you go into some pubs around there it can be a bit of a sorry sight as they seem to lack the dynamism that they once had. In fact, sometimes in places like Depford High Street, inside the pub is the only place you see many white people.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Deptford_Market_south.jpg

    I’m not suggesting anything is wrong with this situation (as some people seem to extrapolate that my just saying this is proof of my own BNP feelings. Not so much on this website, but another I was on before).

    And actually I find that, (what I just explained) to be a really big obstacle in taking on the far right. Those leftists who are really kean to throw out the ”racist” label at anyone who veers away from their own views on anti-racism.

    Yes Ger Francis, I somewhat agree when you say: ”Multicultural Britain is a growing success story.” But let’s not ignore more difficult issues like: what if a majority of the population don’t share that view? And might think that rates of immigration by poor unskilled people in the last 15 years had been too high?
    Many end up in some of our inner city areas that already have problems with housing and poverty.

    Some people may have seen these short 3 minute films on Channel 4 last year, done by this 17 year old from East London. He came to Britain as a child (from Congo) and he and his mother ended up in some of the capital’s more challenging environments.
    Btw, in 2007, of the 27 London teenagers that were killed, I’m pretty sure that 9 of them were of Congolese origin. Have a look at the films if you can.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/i4i+films+by+aj+nakasila/1390347
    I spoke about this (and did that link) on another leftist website, but they were having mone of it.
    No way were they going to discuss this (with me) I was told by several. And sure enough, questions about my motives were soon raised.
    I think that (that) suspicious attitude hinders the fight against racism. It turns people off the left, who can come over as overly pious and narrow minded.

    Rather than going after the BNP, I’d much rather see Migration Watch put in the spotlight.

  180. dave bones — on 4th July, 2009 at 9:56 am  

    Anyway I don’t care what ger says I loved Sparkhill and Sparkbrook. We had a great time living there. All the old grandmothers used to bring us round home hade samosas and sweets after their get togethers. They were lovely to us. It is a shame respect put their faith in george Galloway. You are probably all really good people. You just need to wake up to this idiot. I honestly can’t understand that you don’t see it. Did you not watch him on Big Brother for fucks sake? I hear the guy speaking for two minutes and it is fingers down a blackboard.

    Seriously, a real left could easily step in instead of the BNP. If we are all infighting whilst the BNP consolidate we only have ourselves to blame.

  181. damon — on 4th July, 2009 at 2:38 pm  

    I find that this comment @ 173 to be part of the problem:
    ”Dave could do with shaking some of the racism out of his bones.”

  182. davebones — on 4th July, 2009 at 9:24 pm  

    I think I should be up for some sort of prize. I have been accused of being racist and also of not being racist enough on one thread.

  183. Ravi Naik — on 6th July, 2009 at 9:09 am  

    I did however state that I think civic groups only belonging to one ethnic/religious minority, or that catered for only one ethnic/religious minority, should be not funded. I said this didn’t apply to the Southall Black Sisters.

    Sunny, that’s a rather inconsistent argument – why are the Southall Black Sisters an exception? If you think that that such organisations are useful, then you are pretty much defeating your main argument that organisations that cater one ethnic minority should not be funded.

  184. billericaydicky — on 6th July, 2009 at 9:50 am  

    I agree with Sunny on this one. Southall Black Sisters were set up after the death of Blair Peach in 1979. They were very much a product of that time and I think that now would have chosen a different name.

    Most ethnic minority groups being funded simply promote sectional interests and the careers of those running the groups. Interesting one you might look at Sunny is an article in today’s copy of The Voice in which Simon Wooley is promoting ” a psychological tool” which can detect “prejudice”. This an absolutely Orwellian nightmare whereby Government departments, local councils and private businesses.

    Woolley is quoted as saying that” workplaces would benefit from using the tool called Implicitly because they could root out racists”.

    What it seems has happened is that a commercial concern called Hogrefe has invented these tests which it now selling and which is being promoted by an online resources magazine called People Management.

    Expect more votes for the BNP if this one gets into the system, let’s try and nip it in the bud first.

  185. Shamit — on 6th July, 2009 at 9:56 am  

    Mongrel

    Nice poem but ridiculous arguments. This is why you need to stop reading the tabloid press.

    The reason for California’s budget mess is due to something called the Proposition 13 as well as some archaic legislative rules of order that enable a minority of 35% to block the majority’s will.

    The only Governor in recent times that have been able to forge a working majority in the legislature was Pete Wilson – when the legislative leaders actually gavea shit about the state.

    Now, unfortunately, that leadership is lacking and parties have become more entrenched in their ideological positions in the legislature satisying the needs of their direct constituents and not really bothering about the state as a whole. That’s why the situation is going from bad to worse for the past 30 years. It has got nothing to do with race or even illegal immigrants that much.

  186. damon — on 7th July, 2009 at 5:39 am  

    I’m not sure completely what you meant in post 182 Dave Bones. But my comment was that I thought that Ger Francis saying that about you was a bit unnessary.
    That people coming out with the ”racism” charge so readily, undermines real anti-racism.

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