Israel: still dedicated to peace…


by Sunny
24th June, 2009 at 1:35 am    

… except that its action contradict its actual words:

Israel’s defence ministry has proposed legalising 60 existing homes at a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank, and building another 240 homes at the site, despite US calls for a halt to settlement growth. Construction at the outpost, known as Water Reservoir Hill, near the Talmon settlement, north of Ramallah, would “greatly damage” the freedom of movement of Palestinian farmers in the area, according to Bimkom, an Israeli planning rights group.

So far, Israel has resisted Washington’s pressure for a halt to construction in settlements and the issue is fast becoming a test of wills between the two governments. In an interview yesterday Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said arguing about settlement activity was a waste of time. Last week, the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, told Israel’s foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, that Washington wanted “to see a stop to the settlements”.

I’ve not really commented on I/P much recently, especially since we were going through a period of flux. But it seems clear now that the Israeli government doesn’t actually want peace. They were presented with an opportunity to negotiate and use Obama to force Palestinians into a deal, especially since most lefties around the world support Obama. And yet not only as Netanyahu pointedly refused to do anything about the illegal settlements – they’re actually expanding them. This is not only flouting international law – but signalling that Israel isn’t interested in peace.


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  1. pickles

    New blog post: Israel: still dedicated to peace… http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4955




  1. Denim Justice — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:11 am  

    Oh no, cue response by Bananabrain about how awful you are, Sunny!

  2. Denim Justice — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:14 am  

    Or Marvin..

    They’ll not like this:

    “it seems clear now that the Israeli government doesn’t actually want peace”

    That much was, to me, apparent when I saw the death and destruction they rained down upon Gaza in January. Anyone who so callously caused the loss of so many innocent lives, allegedly to kill a few militants among all the dead, clearly isn’t interested in long-term peace but in outright military destruction of the Palestinian people.

  3. DisgustedOfTunbridgeWells — on 24th June, 2009 at 5:52 am  

    “But it seems clear now that the Israeli government doesn’t actually want peace.”

    This just in.

  4. Boyo — on 24th June, 2009 at 6:50 am  

    Yeah, bloody Jews. Why can’t they be more like the Sri Lankans, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, the Zimbabweans. Hell, why can’t they be more like the Yanks and the Brits, who would never simply slaughter 100,000 Arabs on an ideological whim. Bloody Jews.

  5. platinum786 — on 24th June, 2009 at 8:11 am  

    Bloody Juice indeed.

    Israel can do what it wants, the fact of the matter is, Israel’s allies in the western world are not willing to enforce UN sanctions on Israel, they’re unwilling to make Israel stick to the righteous demands of the UK, the same way they were Iraq.

    If you really wanted to, you could cut of israel’s oil, it’s trade, it’s military supplies, let it crumble and then enforce a Palestinian state upon it (as agreed by the UN), nobody really wants to, they want to pay lip service to the idea.

    The same applies to the arabs you know. They facilitate trade and energy to Israel. If they wanted to do more than lip service, they could refuse permission for it to cross their territory.

    Heck, for all it’s faults, the Iranians have trained and armed Hizbollah into an effective paramilitary force which can go toe to toe with Israel. They’ve only done it to have a proxy, but they have done it. What support have arabs given to Palestinian military factions? Why is Hamas made of scuicide bombers and nutters firing rockets indiscriminately? It’s not the ideal way to support a Palestinian cause, to add fuel to the fire, but it is one way to back your horse, the arabs aren’t even doing that.

    The middle east issue will remain unresolved. Israel can build what it likes, pass what laws it likes, build all the walls it likes, when the Palestinians have people who are willing to back them, they will also tear down walls and bulldoze homes and tear up laws, the same way Israel does today.

  6. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 9:07 am  

    I’ve not really commented on I/P much recently

    Um yeah, and I notice you haven’t commented on the situation in Iran *at all*. You champion of democracy and civil rights you. :-)

  7. chairwoman — on 24th June, 2009 at 9:32 am  

    Sunny, you’ve been a one trick pony for some time now, but today, you and you coterie of anti-Zionists (and that actually means people who don’t think it’s appropriate for Jews to have a country of their own, no matter how many ‘Islamic Republics of..’ and countries that acknowledge their Christianity there are, regardless of what you want to pretend it means) think that the building of 240 yes – two hundred and forty – dwellings, and the licensing of another 60 that’s sixty dwellings already in existence is worth commenting on when a major player in the Middle East is rigging elections and murdering demonstrators, it’s own people on the streets of its capital because they want a Government not hell bent on holding the whole of the middle east and the rest of the world to ransome , and we in this country have 2 BNP MEPs going to Brussels.

    You just like winding people up, you’ve become a parody of a left-winger, a bad joke, in fact.

  8. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:11 am  

    “Sunny, you’ve been a one trick pony for some time now, but today, you and you coterie of anti-Zionists (and that actually means people who don’t think it’s appropriate for Jews to have a country of their own”

    No its not appropriate for them to have land that belongs to and is populated by other people. To get their land by coming from Europe and expelling the native people isnt acceptable.

    Oh wait in the zionist narrative Palestinians are non-people

    If there was any justice in the world Israel would be a huge European state comprising half of more of what was Germany.

  9. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:12 am  

    Boyo
    “Yeah, bloody Jews. Why can’t they be more like the Sri Lankans, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, the Zimbabweans. ”

    Surely you mean the Sinhalese, Punjabis, Persians and Blacks. Or do you only make it a racial issue when its Israels crimes you want to hide?

  10. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:16 am  

    The rabid loonies at HP who condemned Sunny for mentioning Israels atrocities have gone literally mad over Iran- perhaps 30+ articles!!!

    What hypocrites they are

  11. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:18 am  

    Boyo

    “Yeah, bloody Jews. Why can’t they be more like the Sri Lankans, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, the Zimbabweans. Hell, why can’t they be more like the Yanks and the Brits, who would never simply slaughter 100,000 Arabs on an ideological whim. Bloody Jews.”

    Have to say it takes a special brand of Hasbara genius to get people to believe that dark(er) skinned British Asians like Sunny or Muslims oppose Israel’s action because they are racist against white skinned Jews not because Israels actions are appalling!!

  12. Denim Justice — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:21 am  

    Chairwoman if you think Sunny is such a one-trick pony, why waste your time commenting on Pickled Politics? I’m not saying you shouldn’t, or suggesting your freedom to do so isn’t valid – but I am just wondering, because yourself, Katy Newton, marvin, boyo and Bananabrain literally hate every article here that criticises Israel. Do you get a rise out of just disrupting discussions that you find distasteful?

  13. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:31 am  

    The rabid loonies at HP who condemned Sunny for mentioning Israels atrocities have gone literally mad over Iran- perhaps 30+ articles!!!

    And where exactly are the articles on Iranian atrocities inflicted on Muslims on this blog?

  14. bananabrain — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:34 am  

    you see, i really wouldn’t mind, except you reduce the entire argument to:

    Israel isn’t interested in peace.

    what amazing journalistic reductionism!

    what is going on for anyone who has an iota of insight is that netanyahu and lieberman (“israel” to you, apparently) are running scared – netanyahu has had to concede the two-state solution, which is a BIG thing for him, so essentially now they’re arguing over details. the more “facts on the ground” they create in advance of a deal, the more they will look like they’re giving up. if you want to look here:

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=109293016992178810721.00046bd16040273e390a9&ll=31.76163,35.239849&spn=0.789894,0.43705&source=embed

    you will see a map of outposts and settlements. many of them, you will note, consist of a couple of mobile homes. do you really think netanyahu and lieberman are really going to hesitate to sacrifice stuff like that? of course they’re not. they’re playing for the big chips like ariel, gush and ma’ale adumim.

    it’s a tactic, in my view, but a deeply disingenuous one, because it suggests to the settlers that the government is behind them. the more intelligent among them will realise that they’re playing both sides – as well as giving themselves plausible deniability to both sides: “bargaining chips” to the peace camp and “facts on the ground” to the settlers.

    now, i am not impressed with this in the least. but then again, i am not a supporter of netanyahu or lieberman, a fact which is continually lost on (or irrelevant to) the peanut gallery.

    platinum, on the other hand, is actually *impressed* with the iranians’ commitment to terrorism and, of course, our friendly islamist troll munir/blah is still ignoring the fact that half of israel’s jewish population are originally from arab countries.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  15. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:37 am  

    Faisal
    “Um yeah, and I notice you haven’t commented on the situation in Iran *at all*. You champion of democracy and civil rights you. ”

    While you and your HP pals are obsessed with Muslim extremism amongst the 3% Muslim minority in the UK while ignoring Jewish extremism in Israel- the most powerful country in the region!!! (which many secular Israelis are opposing). The Foreign Minister of Israel is a fascist and you are focussing on whether the City Circle has links with IIIT!!

  16. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:42 am  

    bananabrain
    “platinum, on the other hand, is actually *impressed* with the iranians’ commitment to terrorism”

    yes Israel invading Lebanon killing tens of thousands through aerial bombing isnt terrorism but the Iranians funding shia Lebanese to defend themselves from invaders is.

    ” and, of course, our friendly islamist troll munir/blah is still ignoring the fact that half of israel’s jewish population are originally from arab countries.”

    Because its irrelevant. the zionist project from the beginning was created by colonising European jews. Without them there would be no Israel. Nice try

    PS whats an “islamist”? are you a Judaismist?

  17. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:42 am  

    munir

    Every time you open your trap on this blog, you do it to defend Islamists and to conflate Islamists with Muslims.

    This is the only explanation I can see why *you* are defending Sunny’s reticence about the repression inflicted on the Iranian people.

    But it doesn’t exactly explain Sunny’s silence.

  18. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:43 am  

    Faisal
    “And where exactly are the articles on Iranian atrocities inflicted on Muslims on this blog?”

    Where are the articles on Israels atrocities on your or HP’s blog?

  19. bananabrain — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:43 am  

    munir,

    i’m not even going to bother with someone so far from reasonable debate.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  20. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:45 am  

    Faisal

    “Every time you open your trap on this blog, you do it to defend Islamists and to conflate Islamists with Muslims.”

    There is no such thing as an “Islamist” – you will never find this word in classical Muslim writing

    It was invented by non-Muslims. Muslims get to define how Muslim are described. Not non-Muslims

  21. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:45 am  

    Sid – “And where exactly are the articles on Iranian atrocities inflicted on Muslims on this blog?”

    Are you saying then that this subject shouldn’t be covered like Quilliam originally did?

    Asking for articles on the situation in Iran should not prevent discussion on Israel’s approach to peace.

  22. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:46 am  

    Where are the articles on Israels atrocities on your or HP’s blog?

    Where articles of the anti-Fatah assassinations committed by the Hamas on this blog? Or indeed from you?

  23. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:47 am  

    Even the great Obama has commented on the situation in Iran. No selective Leftist toady he.

  24. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:48 am  

    Faisal
    “Where articles of the anti-Fatah assassinations committed by the Hamas on this blog? Or indeed from you?”

    there you go again blaming the victims and ignoring the occupiers.

    You really are a shameless lackey to power. Change your name to Mir Jafar.

  25. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:51 am  

    there you go again blaming the victims and ignoring the occupiers.

    You seem to have a very selective approach to what “victim” means. Pitiful.

  26. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:51 am  

    “munir,

    i’m not even going to bother with someone so far from reasonable debate.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain”

    Hilarious – someone who calls people defending their land from invading armies “terrorists” and a supports a european colonising project to expel native people from their land thinks he is on the side of reasonable debate
    my thoughts

  27. Boyo — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:52 am  

    If Israel did not exist, what’s the betting that munir/blah would invent it?

  28. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:55 am  

    Faisal
    “You seem to have a very selective approach to what “victim” means”

    Great so where are your articles criticising Israel – the occupying power?

  29. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:56 am  

    Boyo
    “If Israel did not exist, what’s the betting that munir/blah would invent it?”

    Most nonsenical comment. Of the year.

  30. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:59 am  

    Great so where are your articles criticising Israel – the occupying power?

    And if Israel are the occupying power, what are the Fatah members who were assassinated by the Hamas in Gaza called?

  31. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:00 am  

    There is no such thing as an “Islamist” – you will never find this word in classical Muslim writing

    That’s because Islamism is a modernist phenomenon. Personfied by Stalinists like this man, the founder of Hizbut Tahrir.

  32. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:01 am  

    Bananabrain – “you will see a map of outposts and settlements. many of them, you will note, consist of a couple of mobile homes. do you really think netanyahu and lieberman are really going to hesitate to sacrifice stuff like that? of course they’re not. they’re playing for the big chips like ariel, gush and ma’ale adumim.

    it’s a tactic, in my view, but a deeply disingenuous one, because it suggests to the settlers that the government is behind them. the more intelligent among them will realise that they’re playing both sides – as well as giving themselves plausible deniability to both sides: “bargaining chips” to the peace camp and “facts on the ground” to the settlers.”

    Sadly it isn’t a new tactic and has been used by Israeli PM’s of all parties to justify major settlement expansion by saying look at what I have to deal with. It allows minimal concession and maximum land grab.

    Sadly Israel is turning very nasty and recent comments by Politicians and Rabbi’s point to a nasty nasty trend in Israel. This usually happens in most countries when extremist governments come to power.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1093401.html

    http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/the-lubavitch-rabbi-and-kill-children-controversy

    Bibi is running scared because he doesn’t have the automatic support of Jews worldwide who are pushing for peace.

    I think Simon Rocker deserves credit for these critical articles and they serve not only as a wake up call for the community but also to keep this extremist government on its toes.

    How this plays out depends very much on how much Bibi can dupe Obama. If Obama stands firm then peace has a chance but if he capitulates like Bush then the region is doomed to more extremism.

  33. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:04 am  

    Faisal
    “And if Israel are the occupying power, what are the Fatah members who were assassinated by the Hamas in Gaza called?”

    Your servitude and inability to criticise Israel is hilarous

  34. Ravi Naik — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:05 am  

    Even the great Obama has commented on the situation in Iran. No selective Leftist toady he.

    Not sure what you are going on about. Do you think the Left is rooting for Ahmadinejad?

  35. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:07 am  

    Sid – If you can’t contribute in a meaningful way beyond abusing people then shut up and let others have their say.

    Why do you destroy every discussion?

    People rightly have concerns about this situation and asking one side to do what the other won’t brings no progress.

    Complaining about political Islam without complaining about political aspects of other faiths is feckin pointless. Evangelicals are pretty damn political but you don’t write articles about them and you don’t get QF highlighting this which is precisely why people get pissed with your approach which is on the same wave as QF.

    On Newsnight yesterday they were biggin up Majid Nawaz and he was asked this question.

    Resorting to usual personal attacks doesn’t contribute to meaningful debate and its unlikely you’ll criticise israel simply because its a democracy which is a flawed place to start.

  36. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:09 am  

    Your servitude and inability to criticise Israel is hilarous

    Your legitimisation and championing of the repression of millions of ordinary Iranian Muslim , who are out on the streets as we speak, by a handful of theocratic elite is so transparently hypocritical that you don’t even need to play a laugh track against it. Just get a Galloway mask will you. :D

  37. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:10 am  

    bananabrain
    “platinum, on the other hand, is actually *impressed* with the iranians’ commitment to terrorism”

    Zionists wittering on about terrorism is hilarious. How did the zionists get teh British out of Palestine? terrorism. Israel has elected terrorists like Begin, Shamir as well as war criminals like Sharon as leaders- and it dares to call the people fighting for the land it dispossesed them from “terrorists”

    Netanyahu of course talks about terrorism and writes book on it – while commemorating the zionist terrorist attack on the King David hotel which killed 92 Brits

    “The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine.

    They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.

    Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece

    Lets hope he gets arrested when he comes to the UK. Likewise any British citizens who glorify this action.

  38. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:10 am  

    Why do you destroy every discussion?

    So sorry to bring up Iran and destroy your cozy discussion on yet more Israel-bashing.

  39. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:13 am  

    Faisal
    “Your legitimisation and championing of the repression of millions of ordinary Iranian Muslim , who are out on the streets as we speak, by a handful of theocratic elite is so transparently hypocritical that you don’t even need to play a laugh track against it. Just get a Galloway mask will you. ”

    Er Mir Jafar I dont support what the Iranian regime is doing – never did -its another Faisal/Sid lie to worm his way out of debate. I think the person who truly won the election (whover that was) should be in charge

    Now, back to the fact you wont criticise Israel’s illegal actions. Why is that?

  40. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:17 am  

    faisal
    “So sorry to bring up Iran and destroy your cozy discussion on yet more Israel-bashing.”

    So countries who flout international law for decades, create a racist apartheid state, invade and occupy their neighbours and keep their victims under conditions which completely violate the geneva convention shouldnt be bashed?

  41. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:17 am  

    Er Mir Jafar I dont support what the Iranian regime is doing – never did -its another Faisal/Sid lie to worm his way out of debate. I think the person who truly won the election (whover that was) should be in charge

    IP addresses never lie. ;-)

  42. Ravi Naik — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:17 am  

    I do not think that the number of articles or comments should be a measure of how much we care about certain issues. There is an unanimous consensus in the West, and between the Left and Right about what is going on in Iran. It is established that (a) the voting was rigged, (b) the Iranian regime is oppressive and non-democratic, (c) we like green. There are no dissenting or polarising voices.

    The I/P on the other hand is polarising, and a good number of reasonable people seem to have different opinions on this matter. A matter that is being dragged on for 50 years.

    I was certainly disappointed to see that Israel didn’t halt the settlements in the West Bank. Yes, it is only 240 houses, but it is a gesture that in my view speaks volumes about the Israeli government (not Israel).

  43. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:20 am  

    Imran Khan
    “Complaining about political Islam without complaining about political aspects of other faiths is feckin pointless”

    Especially since the Palestinian movement has always been predominantly secular and nationalistic while the sole reason for the zionists states existence on someone elses land thousands of miles away is religion!! It was the Israelis who brought religion into the conflict not the Palestinians

  44. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:24 am  

    Chairwoman – “Sunny, you’ve been a one trick pony for some time now, but today, you and you coterie of anti-Zionists (and that actually means people who don’t think it’s appropriate for Jews to have a country of their own, no matter how many ‘Islamic Republics of..’ and countries that acknowledge their Christianity there are, regardless of what you want to pretend it means) think that the building of 240 yes – two hundred and forty – dwellings, and the licensing of another 60 that’s sixty dwellings already in existence is worth commenting on when a major player in the Middle East is rigging elections and murdering demonstrators, it’s own people on the streets of its capital because they want a Government not hell bent on holding the whole of the middle east and the rest of the world to ransome , and we in this country have 2 BNP MEPs going to Brussels.”

    How sad that again you can’t comment or critise but resort to the very rhetoric about Muslims and Christians that you find so unacceptable for Jews.

    What you will find is that the continual building of 240 units here and 60 there, week in week out adds up to pretty significant land grabs. But what the hell lets shoot those that highlight this and appease those that want to continue.

    Are you possibly suggesting that Israel is above criticism and that this nasty policy shouldn’t be commented on?

    Everytime any issue is raised about Israel you jump in to derail any discussion.

    If you want Israel to survive then you need to understand that it needs to come to peace and as such its actions must be analysed. World Jewry is doing this and its about time you caught up.

  45. bananabrain — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:26 am  

    imran:

    How this plays out depends very much on how much Bibi can dupe Obama. If Obama stands firm then peace has a chance but if he capitulates like Bush then the region is doomed to more extremism.

    agreed. the thing is, after 9/11 i think bush’s options for this sort of thing given the feelings of the american electorate were quite restricted. one hesitates to imagine what would happen to his resolution if another major terrorist attack happened on obama’s watch. i’d hesitate to say “dupe”, though, it’s not like netanyahu’s tactics are anything less than hugely obvious.

    Sadly it isn’t a new tactic and has been used by Israeli PM’s of all parties to justify major settlement expansion by saying look at what I have to deal with. It allows minimal concession and maximum land grab.

    sadly, this is the case, but for slightly different reasons – remember, under the israeli coalition system, parties can grab a huge price for their participation and the ministries controlling construction permits and funding for the territories have always been the principal target of parties like the NRP and yisrael beiteinu.

    Bibi is running scared because he doesn’t have the automatic support of Jews worldwide who are pushing for peace.

    i bloody well hope you’re right, i really do. it all depends on whether the american jewish right-wing lobby see obama as a strategic shift or merely a temporary inconvenience.

    I think Simon Rocker deserves credit for these critical articles and they serve not only as a wake up call for the community but also to keep this extremist government on its toes.

    i agree, i saw the one about chabad a couple of weeks ago and thought it was disgusting. this goes to show precisely my problem with many of these “outreach” organisations, the fact that their politics are salafist in the extreme.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  46. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:26 am  

    I do not think that the number of articles or comments should be a measure of how much we care about certain issues.

    Yes it does. Almost no articles on Iran is a measure of indifference. Utter indifference to Iran’s post-revolutionary struggle for secular democracy and self-determination. The future of 75 million Muslims are in the balance here! But you wouldn’t know it by reading this blog.

  47. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:28 am  

    Sid – “So sorry to bring up Iran and destroy your cozy discussion on yet more Israel-bashing.”

    You are part of the editorial team here and on Spitoon so there is nothing stopping you writing about this – is there?

    Why whinge about something you can do? Thats my point.

    Sorry to destroy your cozy discussion on yet more Islam bashing at any opportunity.

    If you cared so much about Iran then why the hell didn’t you write an article on it for publication here?

    Were you waiting to copy and paste something from QF instead ;-)

  48. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:29 am  

    You are part of the editorial team here and on Spitoon so there is nothing stopping you writing about this – is there?

    No I’m not part of the editorial team here Avi Cohen.

  49. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:35 am  

    Sid – Ah back to the slander and name calling.

    You’ve written artciles here haven’t you.

    You published a Press Release from QF here.

    So why can’t you ask to do the same on Iran?

    Also why can’t you do it on your own site?

    If you have the ability to check IP Addresses of posters here which you alluded to above then you do have a level of power which you can use to influence an article or two on Iran.

    In addition the owner can be emailed with suggestions so can you confirm if you’ve done that or have you just come here to stir more trouble?

    Why don’t you concentrate your efforts on writing the article and submit it and if it isn’t published then complain and maybe the rest of us would then support you.

    Despite your slander of me I would actually be quite interested in reading what you have to say. So why not get on and do it and stop this unnecessary approach you are taking?

  50. platinum786 — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:35 am  

    BananaBrain;

    platinum, on the other hand, is actually *impressed* with the iranians’ commitment to terrorism

    You call it terrorism, I’d call it defending Lebanons territorial ingetrity. I’d rather not go in circles about the recent Lebanon war with a guy who has as of yet failed to recognise, let alone condemn the genocide the Israeli state commited at Christmas.

    Sometimes you have to try something beyond cheap point scoring and trying to trigger a response from people.

    My arguement was simple, that the arab world itself is not commited to Palestinian rights. An example i stated (amongst others) was that the arab world had failed to back groups like Fateh, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa martyrs Brigade, i’m sure you can real off more names than me. In it’s failure to back such groups, they have been left as terrorists, with home made explosives and AK-47′s, who are unable to dent the Israeli military.

    On the other hand Irans commitment to Hizbollah has meant Hizbollah has evolved militarily to a force which can hold it’s own against the IDF (it prevented Israel from acheiving it’s objectives in 2006, or whenever it was), it no longer has to resort to scuicide bombing against civillian targets as it can target the Israeli military, hence increasing it’s ability to defend it’s territory and ironically decreasing the risk of war.

    I won’t accept an Israeli state until the Palestinians have a state they are happy with. Yes Israel exists, and will continue to exist. The opertunity to rub it out was in 1947, it’s long gone now. That is a reality, that doesn’t mean Palestine will not exist.

    I’m not stupid enough to think that anything other than military parity with Israel will bring about an Israeli state. Currently that could be achieved with a force of united Muslim nations, however we’ve not got the leadership or diplomatic skills to achieve that. Until then I don’t think the stregthening of groups like Hizbollah and Hamas to take them away from terrorism, towards becoming more mainstream militia forces is a negative, consider them a Palestinian Defence Force.

  51. platinum786 — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:37 am  

    Last paragraph i meant Palestinian state….lol

    Also further evidence that military parity reduces the risk of war;

    1. Cold war, never happened

    2. Pakistan-India, since we’ve gone nuclear we tolerate a lot more BS that in the past would have meant war.

  52. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:37 am  

    Sid – Ah back to the slander and name calling.

    Your old pseudonym, you chose it. And until you can address me as Faisal, I’ll call you Avi Cohen. Like I said already, I am no longer on the editorial team here. So I won’t be publishing any more re-purposed press releases by the Quilliam Foundation on here. ;-)

  53. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:44 am  

    Sid – “Your old pseudonym, you chose it. And until you can address me as Faisal, I’ll call you Avi Cohen. Like I said already, I am no longer on the editorial team here. So I won’t be publishing any more re-purposed press releases by the Quilliam Foundation on here. ;-)

    As I recall you said that you did not mind people calling you Sid or Faisal. If that has changed then please say so and I’ll call you by the name you prefer.

    It isn’t my old pseudonym and if you can’t prove it then kindly don’t use slander.

    Have you contacted the editor to request articles on Iran here?

    How many articles on Iran have you on your site compared to say articles critical of Islam?

    How many articles do you have on your site critical of Israel?

    You complain about the lack of here but equally is there a lack of balance on your own site and are you willing to acknowledge and adjust that?

    These are two separate issues (I/P and Iran)and both are worthy of discussion.

  54. chairwoman — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:49 am  

    “Are you possibly suggesting that Israel is above criticism and that this nasty policy shouldn’t be commented on?

    Everytime any issue is raised about Israel you jump in to derail any discussion.”

    Actually I think that at the moment there are far more important things happening in the world and I can’t understand Sunny’s reluctance to discuss them.

    And in which way did my comment derail the discussion? Is your ides of a ‘discussion’ on Pickled Politics one where Sunny says ‘Bad, Bad, Israel’, and the comments consist of variations on ‘I agree with Sunny’?

    I have noticed today that there is a concerted effort on this thread to discourage myself, Katy, bananabrain, Marvin and Faisal from commenting on this subject. Perhaps any subjects. Who knows?

    All in favour of a free press then?

    Well done.

  55. Chris Baldwin — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:59 am  

    I really think Mr Obama ought to be able to do better than this. If America really leant on Israel surely Netanyahu would have to give in. Now, normally I’m not in favour of America heavily leaning on countries, but Israel and the US have such a close relationship and the US gives Israel so much aid that I really don’t think such leaning would be any more imperialistic than America’s current attitude. Why not threaten to cut off aid completely? That should wake them up in Tel Aviv.

  56. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:04 pm  

    Bananabrain – “agreed. the thing is, after 9/11 i think bush’s options for this sort of thing given the feelings of the american electorate were quite restricted. one hesitates to imagine what would happen to his resolution if another major terrorist attack happened on obama’s watch. i’d hesitate to say “dupe”, though, it’s not like netanyahu’s tactics are anything less than hugely obvious.”

    The American Electorate didn’t ask him to give uncritical support to Israel. His approach put both Israel and America in more danger not less.

    A major terror attack does not decrease the need to support peace between Israel and Palestine. An intelligent president should know that.

    “sadly, this is the case, but for slightly different reasons – remember, under the israeli coalition system, parties can grab a huge price for their participation and the ministries controlling construction permits and funding for the territories have always been the principal target of parties like the NRP and yisrael beiteinu.”

    Agreed but again Bibi had the chance to have Kadima and thus a majority if he wanted peace but he chose to capitulate to the extreme right because he didn’t want peace.

    “i bloody well hope you’re right, i really do. it all depends on whether the american jewish right-wing lobby see obama as a strategic shift or merely a temporary inconvenience.”

    Again agreed but equally it depends on how much the grassroots speak out against their own lobby and leadership. So far they have which is muting the effect of the lobby and leadership to pressure Obama.

    The right wing lobby is at odds with mainstream Jewish Support of the pursuit of peace.

    “i agree, i saw the one about chabad a couple of weeks ago and thought it was disgusting. this goes to show precisely my problem with many of these “outreach” organisations, the fact that their politics are salafist in the extreme.”

    I think you’ll find that the mainstream Salafi organisations are the ones who are pushing for respect of all people and reminding Muslims of their duty towards people of all faiths and none.

    Equally I think we need to look at Chabad’s overall policy and if he fits it or is at odds with it. At the moment I suspect he is at odds but you may know more.

    I’ve quite encouraged because people like the Board of Deputies and The Three Faiths Forum are doing more work in outreach and hopefully this will have a good impact.

  57. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:07 pm  

    Imran khan
    “If you want Israel to survive then you need to understand that it needs to come to peace and as such its actions must be analysed. World Jewry is doing this and its about time you caught up.”

    Quite and it should be added that the zionist lobby and Israel’s position on demonising Islam and Muslims and positioning itself as opponents of them is a suicidal policy in regards to its accptance in the region. Arab and Muslim nations are never going to accept you when you are so anti-Arab and anti-Muslim.
    The idea that there is going to be mass apostasy from islam or from speaking Arabic is a delusional fantasy. So Israel has to accept both of these entities and realities- not fight them

    Israel is the al Muhajiroun of the region- preaching hatred against the religion and values of the majority of people in the region whilst demanding acceptance.

  58. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:08 pm  

    chairwoman
    “And in which way did my comment derail the discussion? Is your ides of a ‘discussion’ on Pickled Politics one where Sunny says ‘Bad, Bad, Israel’, and the comments consist of variations on ‘I agree with Sunny’?”

    No its where when the subject is country x we talk about country x – not mention whats going on in country y as a diversionary tactic

  59. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:14 pm  

    Faisal

    “Yes it does. Almost no articles on Iran is a measure of indifference. Utter indifference to Iran’s post-revolutionary struggle for secular democracy and self-determination. The future of 75 million Muslims are in the balance here! But you wouldn’t know it by reading this blog.”

    Your concern for Muslims is touching.While commiserating over the 10 protestors killed in Iran any plans on shitoon to mention yet more Muslims the (over 50) killed by the US in Pakistan among them women and children? Why the indifference?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8115814.stm

    Glad you are so pro-Iranian. Do you agree as I do that the great Iranian nation should have nuclear weapons?
    The comment about self determination is comical since Iran is the most independent country in the region and you oppose independence self determination for Kashmiris, Chechens and other Muslims.

  60. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:18 pm  

    Chairwoman – “Actually I think that at the moment there are far more important things happening in the world and I can’t understand Sunny’s reluctance to discuss them.”

    Actually this is just as important because failure to address this issue is allowing Iran to grow its support in the region for its policies. Surely you can see that?

    Addressing the I/P conflict and resolving it will hinder Iran’s long term ambitions for influence in the region.

    “And in which way did my comment derail the discussion? Is your ides of a ‘discussion’ on Pickled Politics one where Sunny says ‘Bad, Bad, Israel’, and the comments consist of variations on ‘I agree with Sunny’?”

    No it isn’t that. If you support Israel and discuss the issue without the sensationalism I don’t have an issue. Its the way you are currently approaching things that I dislike. Dare I say that its actually a contrast to your usual approach.

    I don’t have an issue with your support of Israel and I understand your position but what I don’t like is this sensationalism to any discussion which may be critical of Israel.

    “I have noticed today that there is a concerted effort on this thread to discourage myself, Katy, bananabrain, Marvin and Faisal from commenting on this subject. Perhaps any subjects. Who knows?”

    Thats not true. What I do worry about is your aligning yourself with the likes of Marvin and Faisal who are rarely critical of anything Israel does. Surely we need to be just enough to criticise both sides?

    “All in favour of a free press then?

    Well done.”

    Yes I am and I’d like to hear your views but recently you are simply not discussing the issue but resorting to cliches which the right wing in Israel use. In criticising Sunny you again chose to bring in Arabs and Christians to the discussion with no need to do so.

    If you are in favour of the housing contracts on occupied land then why not write in favour – why the need to attack the writing of the article, bashing Muslims for their land etc. Why not just address the issue?

  61. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:18 pm  

    “i agree, i saw the one about chabad a couple of weeks ago and thought it was disgusting..”

    Chabad have Nazi-like attitudes towards non Jews vis a vis Jews . they consider non-jews inessential and refuse derived from Satan while Jews are essential and derived from holiness

    Yet they are given a free ride by the press- indeed even lauded. Dont expect any critical articles from the Muslim haters at HP or expose from Faisal at shitoon.

  62. Yahya Birt — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:24 pm  

    While I think there is definitely something to object to in the relative silence over Iran’s crisis from quarters of the Muslim community and from parts of the left, and that could go for other causes like that of Darfur for instance, or minority rights in a large number of Muslim countries, it’s hard to take an argument from silence to suggest that someone like Sunny doesn’t care for the Iranian people.

    The regime has stolen the election and they are terrorizing the protesters, shutting down the media and attempting to ride out the dissent to bolster their faltering authority. Re Faisal’s point, experts on Iran don’t seem to be characterising this as a clear struggle for secular democracy (although manifests large sectors of the young population of the country want that). The original candidates list was eviscerated by the Supreme Council but there is still obviously a monumental struggle going on within the Iranian political establishment. The opposition didn’t appear to be seeking to overthrown the Revolution, they were seeking reform within the system. Now that Ahmedinejad has been bulldozed through, the clerical and conservative political elite may still not be able to contain the crisis that they created.

    Things are in the balance, and so it is a critical time to say something. It could go either way: my heart hopes that Iran 2009 will be Romania 1989 but my head says it may be Tiananman 1989.

    Regarding the other issue, we know too that the settlement issue remains key to any final peaceful resolution, so this story is not unimportant either. All sides need to reinforce good words with credible acts. I can’t see how this development positively reinforces Netanyahu’s reponse to Obama’s speech on the settlements issue. But perhaps someone can persuade me otherwise?

    wassalam, Yahya

  63. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:25 pm  

    Your concern for Muslims is touching.While commiserating over the 10 protestors killed in Iran any plans on shitoon to mention yet more Muslims the (over 50) killed by the US in Pakistan among them women and children? Why the indifference?

    What makes you think there is no coverage on Pakistan issues on Spittoon? Come and reas instead of posting pro-Islamist, anti-Iranian slurs under the name “me”.

    The comment about self determination is comical since Iran is the most independent country in the region and you oppose independence self determination for Kashmiris, Chechens and other Muslims.

    Oh dear. What does “most independent country” even mean? And does “most independent country” mean if it has less than total democratic accountability? Have you been smoking Galloway’s cigars or just lapping up his propaganda on PressTV? I fully support expressions of self-determination for Kashmiris and Chechans where they take a democratic approach. You support terrorist attacks on their own and soil your pants with joy when this involves the death of innocents. Just as you support the Jamaat-e-Islami, and we know their record towards Muslim self-determination, don’t we?

  64. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:34 pm  

    Yahya – “While I think there is definitely something to object to in the relative silence over Iran’s crisis from quarters of the Muslim community and from parts of the left, and that could go for other causes like that of Darfur for instance, or minority rights in a large number of Muslim countries, it’s hard to take an argument from silence to suggest that someone like Sunny doesn’t care for the Iranian people.”

    The Muslim Community is poor at this but I’d say that people like Faisal are part of the problem. When you continually bash a community – any community – then it will become defensive and unable to criticise extremism.

    A balanced and sensible approach is needed to address issues outside and within.

    The reason there is so little internal criticism is because of the rabid and sensationalist response from outside.

    “Things are in the balance, and so it is a critical time to say something. It could go either way: my heart hopes that Iran 2009 will be Romania 1989 but my head says it may be Tiananman 1989.”

    The Mullahs will not yield the power and influence they are building easily and it will need pressure from the Muslim world.

    The most effective way to tackle Iran is to neutralise the issues which are a cause of extremism which Iran plays on.

  65. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:41 pm  

    Faisal – May I ask on your blog how do you propose to address the issues that the Muslim world has such as Israel/Palestine, India/Kashmir etc.

    Is it unstinting support for democracies?

    How do you propose engagement?

    Continual bashing of Muslims organisations is hardly likely to win you many converts which is what QF found and thus they started to address a few issues.

    Engagement is a 2 way process and lecturing is a one way process. The Muslim world has been lectured for 8 years and it led to great polarization so engagement is the way to go.

  66. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:42 pm  

    Yahya

    Well said.

    Now that Ahmedinejad has been bulldozed through, the clerical and conservative political elite may still not be able to contain the crisis that they created.

    I do hope that the expression that the fallout entails proceeds along the lines of a national consensus towards further democratic reforms, rather than a backward slide into less reform and more theocratic strictures.

    This is direction we should champion for the Iranian people. This is why the west should support the struggle of the Iranian people here and abroad.

  67. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:44 pm  

    Imran Khan

    “The Muslim Community is poor at this but I’d say that people like Faisal are part of the problem. When you continually bash a community – any community – then it will become defensive and unable to criticise extremism.”

    Exactly . The people demanding Muslims condemn this and condemn that are Muslim-bashers . Why should Muslims give rope to them so they can hang us?

  68. Yahya Birt — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:44 pm  

    Imran — all the bashing has helped to create a siege mentality in parts of the Muslim community, but we all still have to hold on to our standards, whether they are of secular or religious inspiration.

    To get a more balanced overview, I think we have to take a global and strategic overview of conflict around the world, its causes and its solutions, and not just debate the various national-level causes that we seek to take up. Otherwise the reducto ad absurdum of the “whataboutery” argument rears its ugly head, backed by a psychology of competitive victimhood and selective backing of universal principles. Some of the work done by the Oxford Research Group, and in particular I’m thinking of their manifesto “Global Responses to Global Threats: Sustainable Security for the 21st Century”. Link to the pdf here:

    http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefing_papers/pdf/globalthreats.pdf

    I haven’t read this, but the longer version that was published as “Thinking Beyond Terror”, but which is not available online.

    wassalam, Yahya

  69. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:45 pm  

    Imran Khan
    ” The Muslim world has been lectured for 8 years and it led to great polarization so engagement is the way to go.”

    More than that – its been invaded and bombed and all the while expected to take lectures from those invading and bombing

  70. chairwoman — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:49 pm  

    “No its where when the subject is country x we talk about country x – not mention whats going on in country y as a diversionary tactic”

    OK. I get it now. These are the sort of tactics you would employ, so you assume that other people are equally sneaky.

    I however actually say what I mean, and just in case you don’t understand what I mean, I will say it again, using extremely simple words.

    Ready?

    There are things going on in the world, right now, that are far more important than the subject of Sunny’s post, and I don’t understand why he isn’t addressing any of them.

    That isn’t 100 o/o true. I do understand it, he has discovered that this subject gets the most comments so he keeps on with it. This will also increase his left-wing credibility and enhance his political prospects.

  71. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:51 pm  

    ” I fully support expressions of self-determination for Kashmiris and Chechans where they take a democratic approach.”

    Wow thats a breakthrough. I couldnt agree more- the problem is Mir Jafar that the Kashmiris and Chechens and others have been denied their democratic right to vote for independence – and you consider them fighting the soldiers invaders of their land terrorism (as you and your zionist buddy accused Daud Abdullah of doing when he said Muslims should defende themselves from invading armies)

    ” You support terrorist attacks on their own and soil your pants with joy when this involves the death of innocents.”

    Some who makes such ludicrous slanderous comments surely cant expect to be taken seriously.

    ” Just as you support the Jamaat-e-Islami, and we know their record towards Muslim self-determination, don’t we?”

    Sigh more lying. You are shameless.

  72. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:53 pm  

    Faisal – “This is direction we should champion for the Iranian people. This is why the west should support the struggle of the Iranian people here and abroad.”

    So why not champion the struggle of the Palestinians, Kashmiri’s etc?

    Herein lies the failing that the support is only for those policies that are set by a small minority.

    If you want Muslims to support change in IKran then you need to support the rights of Muslims who are being oppressed elsewhere and not condition this on whether the oppression is by a democracy or not.

  73. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:56 pm  

    Yahya – “Imran — all the bashing has helped to create a siege mentality in parts of the Muslim community, but we all still have to hold on to our standards, whether they are of secular or religious inspiration.”

    I agree.

  74. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:56 pm  

    Otherwise the reducto ad absurdum of the “whataboutery” argument rears its ugly head, backed by a psychology of competitive victimhood and selective backing of universal principles.

    Nail on the head again, Yahya. But I’m afraid some of pro-Islamist elements here have made entrenched their ideas into this once superb blog, as they have done on this thread, and will dismiss *your* words as superfluous.

  75. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 12:57 pm  

    Faisal – “I fully support expressions of self-determination for Kashmiris and Chechans where they take a democratic approach.”

    That itself is dictatorial in that you are deciding for people what path to take and not letting them choose.

    This means that the democracies they are oppressed by are able to continue because they are well democracies.

    If people choose to live by a system that should be their choice.

  76. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:00 pm  

    Um yeah, and I notice you haven’t commented on the situation in Iran *at all*. You champion of democracy and civil rights you

    Oh oh! I know that game!! It’s that game where I can’t comment on something when Faisal says I haven’t commented on something else that he thinks is more important! Can I play please??

    Is that the same game whereby when I mentioned other people who tried to claim that people don’t write about Sri Lanka as much as Israel (when they didn’t themselves) and you said that I should stop playing that game???

    I wouldn’t bother if I was you Faisal – you’re tying yourself into knots and I’d rather not be told what I should be writing about or not because I can also play that game.

  77. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:01 pm  

    Faisal
    “Nail on the head again, Yahya. But I’m afraid some of pro-Islamist elements here have made entrenched their ideas into this once superb blog, as they have done on this thread, and will dismiss *your* words as superfluous.”

    Yahya Birt is a superb writer who deeply cares about the Muslim community.

    You are a weasly Muslim-hater who trades on a Muslim background to demonise. Trying to imply you have a standing in the Muslim community akin to Yahya or a link to him is hilarious

    Faisal Gazi you are no Yahya Birt

  78. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:05 pm  

    If people choose to live by a system that should be their choice.

    If you let it be their choice, you will find that democracy is chosen over the biraderi despotism on most days by most people. Particularly on election day in Pakistan in 2007 and Bangladesh in 2008.

  79. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:05 pm  

    now, i am not impressed with this in the least. but then again, i am not a supporter of netanyahu or lieberman, a fact which is continually lost on (or irrelevant to) the peanut gallery.

    Didn’t say you were bananabrain – in fact I didn’t even criticise you or refer to you in the original article. So when you mentioned that ‘this point is lost’ – what exactly are you referring to?

    Otherwise the reducto ad absurdum of the “whataboutery” argument rears its ugly head, backed by a psychology of competitive victimhood and selective backing of universal principles.

    Agreed. But funny you don’t understand the irony of endorsing that point Faisal because you’ve derailed the thread by doing exactly that.

  80. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:05 pm  

    #77 – There you go Yahya, and you thought you had it bad. :D

  81. chairwoman — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:05 pm  

    Imran – A couple of weeks ago I said that I wouldn’t get into these I/P discussions because I thought that we had bigger fish to fry here in the country in which we live, and that they are causing a lack of cohesion, and I still stand by that. It’s the main reason why I am so frustrated that nobody else seems to see this, and everyone’s rattling the same old rusty chains. Whilst the BNP’s in any sort of ascendant I feel we should be concentrating on a group effort against them, and foreign policy should be on the back burner.

    But, I can’t understand why the cheerleaders for Islam right or wrong, by which i mean Munir/blah, Platinum, etc., who never fail to stand up for their co-religionists should be surprised when Jews do similar, or expect them to do otherwise.

  82. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:09 pm  

    Faisal – “I fully support expressions of self-determination for Kashmiris and Chechans where they take a democratic approach.”

    Imran Khan
    “That itself is dictatorial in that you are deciding for people what path to take and not letting them choose.

    This means that the democracies they are oppressed by are able to continue because they are well democracies.”

    Its also deeply hypocritical. Faisal opposes the Kashmiri and Chechens fighting for independence after they were denied it democratically but when it comes to HIS home country (Bangaladesh fighting for freedom from Pakistan) he supports it (as incidentally do I) violentally.

    How can someone support Bangladeshi independence but not Kashmiri?

  83. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:09 pm  

    But funny you don’t understand the irony of endorsing that point Faisal because you’ve derailed the thread by doing exactly that.

    Sorry Sunny. But derailing one (yet another) anti-Israel thread on PP to highlight the struggle for democracy for people of Iran isn’t that bad in my books.

  84. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:12 pm  

    “But, I can’t understand why the cheerleaders for Islam right or wrong, by which i mean Munir/blah, Platinum, etc., who never fail to stand up for their co-religionists should be surprised when Jews do similar, or expect them to do otherwise.”

    I stand up for Muslims when they are being unjustly attacked. I have criticised Muslim groups (eg al Muhajiroun) many times. You on the hand as with many people in the Jewish community never criticise Israel or other Jews.

  85. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:15 pm  

    I’m sure Ahmedinijad will be quaking in his boots Faisal because you took the bold step of derailing yet another thread in a game of whataboutery to point out that I haven’t written about Iran when I already have. Moussavi will surely win the election now!!

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4933
    and
    http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/06/22/for-a-policy-of-non-interference-in-iran/

  86. chairwoman — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:15 pm  

    “You on the hand as with many people in the Jewish community never criticise Israel or other Jews.”

    Actually I do. You just never seem to notice.

  87. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:15 pm  

    Chairwoman – “Imran – A couple of weeks ago I said that I wouldn’t get into these I/P discussions because I thought that we had bigger fish to fry here in the country in which we live, and that they are causing a lack of cohesion, and I still stand by that. It’s the main reason why I am so frustrated that nobody else seems to see this, and everyone’s rattling the same old rusty chains. Whilst the BNP’s in any sort of ascendant I feel we should be concentrating on a group effort against them, and foreign policy should be on the back burner.”

    I agree but in order to bring our communities together we have to tackle the I/P elephant in the room as well.

    If we are to become cohesive then we need to address all issues otherwise we cannot build long term sustainable cohesion.

    We have to lay the I/P ghost to rest as it has caused massive problems in community relations and the only way to do that is to work together on resolving this.

    The rise of the BNP and the right in Europe is a reason why a solvable dispute needs to be put to bed to tackle the wider issue.

    “But, I can’t understand why the cheerleaders for Islam right or wrong, by which i mean Munir/blah, Platinum, etc., who never fail to stand up for their co-religionists should be surprised when Jews do similar, or expect them to do otherwise.”

    But thats my point both religions demand their followers stand for justice and they won’t!

  88. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:17 pm  

    I’m sure Ahmedinijad will be quaking in his boots Faisal because you took the bold step of derailing yet another thread in a game of whataboutery to point out that I haven’t written about Iran when I already have. Moussavi will surely win the election now!!

    Thanks. Sorry to deprive your anti-semitic fanbase of another dreg of your “pro-democratic” tonic. :D

  89. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:20 pm  

    Sorry to deprive your anti-semitic fanbase of another dreg of your “pro-democratic” tonic.

    It’s sad to see that this is the level that your discourse has descended to these days.

  90. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:21 pm  

    Not as sad as seeing what PP has become in 4 short years.

  91. Golam Murtaza — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:25 pm  

    Bloody hell…steady on Faisal. Most of the people who comment on PP are cool. Don’t write it off because of a few nutters.

  92. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:31 pm  

    Faisal – “Sorry Sunny. But derailing one (yet another) anti-Israel thread on PP to highlight the struggle for democracy for people of Iran isn’t that bad in my books.”

    No its derailing a thread for the Palestinian struggle for democracy.

    Why the need to derail that struggle?

    Why not just request another thread on Iran? Why derail this one because you deem it fit?

  93. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:33 pm  

    Sunny – “It’s sad to see that this is the level that your discourse has descended to these days.”

    Its an easy way for him to justify his actions. Smearing people and derailing discussions!

  94. Golam Murtaza — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:39 pm  

    Ah, now I remember why I don’t like I/P discussions. It always gets messy. ALWAYS.

  95. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:40 pm  

    When it comes to I/P talk of thread derails is redundant because those discussions are always nothing but one big mess of derails and flame baiting…

  96. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:41 pm  

    Sunny
    “I’m sure Ahmedinijad will be quaking in his boots Faisal because you took the bold step of derailing yet another thread in a game of whataboutery to point out that I haven’t written about Iran when I already have. Moussavi will surely win the election now!! ”

    Hehe- I heard the Ayatollah Khamenei has decide to retie after reading Faisal’s devastation ripostes

    Sunny – “It’s sad to see that this is the level that your discourse has descended to these days.”

    He’s always been like that – he responds to people who dare challenge his errors in the most vile and scatalogical way possible -leaving no room for reasoned response or debate. Someone wrote something that proves you wrong? Faisal’s solution
    : Accuse them of supporting mass rape, genocide or the gloating over the deaths of innocents
    It poisons the whole thread.

    I pity his missus. Life for her must be hell.

  97. bananabrain — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:41 pm  

    I think you’ll find that the mainstream Salafi organisations are the ones who are pushing for respect of all people and reminding Muslims of their duty towards people of all faiths and none.

    oh, imran, come *on*. look, you’re perfectly happy when i seem to be in 100% agreement with you, but the minute anyone gainsays your position you start with the denunciations. it is ridiculous how you attempt to caricature chairwoman’s position (as well as faisal’s) in your quest for Absolute Evenhandedness And Condemning Both Sides Equally.

    Equally I think we need to look at Chabad’s overall policy and if he fits it or is at odds with it. At the moment I suspect he is at odds but you may know more.

    look, they do good work and they get respect from me for going where other groups won’t go. but there are things about their theology that i really disagree with and the same goes for what i know of their politics. essentially, however, they are no different from other types of NGO. in fact, i would say that there are larger parallels between chabad and, say, amnesty international than one might imagine.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  98. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:49 pm  

    Faisal

    “If you let it be their choice, you will find that democracy is chosen over the biraderi despotism on most days by most people. Particularly on election day in Pakistan in 2007 and Bangladesh in 2008.”

    Pakistanis voted in a feudal thief scion of one of the countries elite families Asif Ali Zardari. Likewise Bangladeshis!!

    In Pakistan biraderi despotism is synonmous with democracy!

    If you are so the anti-bideri system why dont you support Salma Yaqoobs fighting it in the Midlands ?
    Even more so as she is a strong Muslim woman

    Oh yeah – she supports the Palestinians

  99. platinum786 — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:51 pm  

    I want to know where I’ve been “standing up” for the Iranian government?

    It’s interesting how people can stalk me when they want to malign me, but don’t seem to follow my comments otherwise.

    I simply tend take with a pinch of salt anything said about Iran in the British and American media, as there is a vested interest there. Similarly I don’t take Press TV to be gospel, as it’s state run.

    I don’t know what is going on in Iraninian politics, I was under the impression that Ahmedinijad was expected to win, but not by such a margin. There are allegations of vote rigging, and fighting between protestors and the state, or violence at least.

    I’m aware how people go about “rigging” elections in Britain, I’ve had police officials from Pakistan tell me how they rigged elections in Pakistan in support of a particular candidate, it comes as no suprise to me if elections in Iran had an element of rigging.

    I’m just unwilling to take sides with a guy who is for all extents and purposes, a part of the Ayatollah approved system, pretending like he’s some mega reformer.

    For the record, these are my comments about the election on another forum, where people were coming to the typical conclusion that the unrest was fueled by an agenda from the west;

    It is just like the Taliban, none of us would want to live like that, but we are happy for Afghanistan and it’s people to be forced to live under a Taliban government, as it suits our political interests.

    We are doing the same in Iran, simply because we prefer ahedinijad and his rantings, we have this attitude of fu*k the iranian people and their freedom and their life, let them live under the authoritarian state which controls even stuff like fashion and free movement and what you can and cannot say.

    Simple fact of the matter is, like me, most Muslims don’t trust Britain, the EU, the USA as they feel they have an agenda, governments in the Muslimworld which are pro them. Nobody seems to pine for democracy in Eygpt or Saudi Arabia.

  100. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:53 pm  

    Bananabrain – “oh, imran, come *on*. look, you’re perfectly happy when i seem to be in 100% agreement with you, but the minute anyone gainsays your position you start with the denunciations. it is ridiculous how you attempt to caricature chairwoman’s position (as well as faisal’s) in your quest for Absolute Evenhandedness And Condemning Both Sides Equally.”

    With respect I didn’t gainsay your position. I am simply saying that some of the mainstream Salafi organisations are speaking out against extremism. Whats wrong with saying that?

    Just because the media and QF hype is different it doesn’t change the reality.

    The mainstream Salafi scholars have spoken out against suicide bombings anywhere and that includes Israel.

    In our discussions we need to at least acknowledge and encourage those who denounce extremism.

  101. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:55 pm  

    Imran Khan
    “I think you’ll find that the mainstream Salafi organisations are the ones who are pushing for respect of all people and reminding Muslims of their duty towards people of all faiths and none.”

    Thats not true. They are deeply intolerant of others (though less so than before) including Muslims who dont share their views.The sad legacy of Saudi money
    on Islam in the UK. They are outside normative Islam and are a heretic neo-Khawarij cult empowered by the British to take over Saudi who have thanks to oil money been able to spread their fitna far and wide.

    But Chabad likewise are deeply anti-gentile but you wont see them being criticised in the press

  102. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:55 pm  

    munir,

    I’m more than happy to get under the nose of people like you. You’re on record here of making antisemitic insults, disparaging comments of victims of the 1971 genocide in Pakistan, you lie, argue in bad faith, produce takfiri arguments.

    In short, you’re beneath contempt.

    And yet, you’ve managed to weasel your way into the commenenterati of PP because Sunny’s one-sided anti-Israel posts, or the Left’s appeasement of Islamists as “down-trodden” Muslims gives you, and people like you, the kind of cover you need to flesh out your repulsive bigotry in the comfort of a “liberal consensus”.

  103. Cabalamat — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:55 pm  

    Getting past the mudslinging which is traditional on any airing of the israel-Palestine dispute, the important question is: what, if anything, will Obama do to get Israel to comply with the US position that there will be no more settlement building?

    Obama would obviously have anticipated that Israel might defy the USA, so presumably he has a fallback plan in place. Given that Israel is reliant on US aid and weapons, Obama has a lot of levers he could pull.

  104. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:57 pm  

    Sid/Faisal

    ‘I am no longer on the editorial team here. So I won’t be publishing any more re-purposed press releases by the Quilliam Foundation on here.’

    Nobody told me. When did this change?

    Its for the best.

  105. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:58 pm  

    Its for the best.

    Thank you. It’s mutual.

  106. platinum786 — on 24th June, 2009 at 1:59 pm  

    Munirs right about the Biradari system and politics. Pakistani politics is dotted with it. It’s a perfect model for Biradari politics. Don’t know about Bangladesh, but I can assure you that’s the case in Pakistan.

  107. platinum786 — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:02 pm  

    Regarding the topic of hand, I’m sure Obama will do nothing to enforce peace in the Middle East. Israel has more powerful friends in America than Barack Obama does.

  108. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:03 pm  

    platinum786
    “Simple fact of the matter is, like me, most Muslims don’t trust Britain, the EU, the USA as they feel they have an agenda, governments in the Muslimworld which are pro them. Nobody seems to pine for democracy in Eygpt or Saudi Arabia”

    Exactly

    The west of course supported the overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadeq in 1953 in Iran.When Iran had a popular revolution they supported noted democrat Saddam Husseins attack on it.

    Not to mention Algeria or Gaza or the numerous places like Kashmir and Checyna where Muslims have been denied their democratic rights and the numerous places in the Muslim world where the US backs dicators.
    (if you want to know about dealing atrociously with demonstartrators what about US backed Uzbekistan where the govt massacred 500- dont expect articles on that on spitoon or HP)

    “Karimov, Bush’s Favorite Terrorist?
    Slaughter in Uzbekistan
    By ALAN MAASS

    The central Asian country of Uzbekistan was on the edge of revolt following a government massacre of as many as 500 demonstrators in the town of Andijon.

    Sketchy media accounts suggest that the government had quelled unrest in Andijon, but that protests and rioting had spread to other towns in the Fergana Valley–a densely populated and impoverished region in eastern Uzbekistan, close to the capital of Tashkent and near the border with Kyrgyzstan.”

    http://www.counterpunch.org/maass05212005.html

    Yet at the same time we are expected to believe they want the best for the Muslims of Iran!

  109. bananabrain — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:15 pm  

    Didn’t say you were bananabrain – in fact I didn’t even criticise you or refer to you in the original article. So when you mentioned that ‘this point is lost’ – what exactly are you referring to?

    not you, sunny. that point about the peanut gallery was aimed at the munirs and platinums of this world who, as chairwoman says:

    “You on the hand as with many people in the Jewish community never criticise Israel or other Jews.”

    Actually I do. You just never seem to notice.

    hear bloody hear. and, in fact, whatever we seem to say it never seems to be enough to meet the “evenhandedness” criteria of the imrans of this world.

    as for this:

    But Chabad likewise are deeply anti-gentile but you wont see them being criticised in the press

    i thought we just saw, to quote simon rocker, “a storm of outrage” and public apologies. so that’s right down there with your normal level of argument, isn’t it?

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  110. Jai — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:17 pm  

    A couple of weeks ago I said that I wouldn’t get into these I/P discussions because I thought that we had bigger fish to fry here in the country in which we live, and that they are causing a lack of cohesion, and I still stand by that. It’s the main reason why I am so frustrated that nobody else seems to see this, and everyone’s rattling the same old rusty chains. Whilst the BNP’s in any sort of ascendant I feel we should be concentrating on a group effort against them, and foreign policy should be on the back burner.

    My 5 cents is that I completely agree with the paragraph above. We do indeed have bigger fish to fry, involving matters of immediate impact and proximity to all of us. It is also worthwhile at this juncture to refrain from inadvertantly submitting to the concept of “Divide and Rule”; apart from the historical precedents — a parallel which would certainly not be lost on the higher echelons of the BNP and their supporters — this thread is essentially a microcosm of that.

    Learn that particular lesson from history and don’t make the same mistakes all over again, especially now.

    Anyway, I don’t get involved in I/P threads either, so that’s my 5 cents, like I said.

  111. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:19 pm  

    faisal

    ” You’re on record here of making antisemitic insults, disparaging comments of victims of the 1971 genocide in Pakistan, you lie, argue in bad faith, produce takfiri arguments. ”

    You forgot to mention that I also return library books late

    “And yet, you’ve managed to weasel your way into the commenenterati of PP …..(gives) people like you, the kind of cover you need to flesh out your repulsive bigotry in the comfort of a “liberal consensus”.”

    Wow are you writing an autobiography ?

  112. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:22 pm  

    Sunny your comment to Sid/Faisal:

    ‘It’s sad to see that this is the level that your discourse has descended to these days.’

    I hate to tell you, but just look back to Sid/Faisal’s debut post and you will see all the the signs were there then.

  113. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:24 pm  

    Is that Sunny I can here on LBC? Talking about Iran?

  114. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:25 pm  

    I mean hear of course – sounds just like him.

  115. Shamit — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:43 pm  

    Damn Jai

    I was about to write something very similar but you beat me to it.

    No point me writing as you are far more eloquent- but may I add while I am not a member of the editorial team I do enjoy PP and this is the only place I usually can be bothered to write comments. And I second what Golam said earlier.

    ************************************

    “Obama would obviously have anticipated that Israel might defy the USA, so presumably he has a fallback plan in place. Given that Israel is reliant on US aid and weapons, Obama has a lot of levers he could pull.”

    He is no George H W Bush – the only President who actually cut aid and this President is a democrat and his Democratic Congress won’t let him do much until the mid terms. And the Congress is already not very popular.

    There would be some very tough races and the AIPAC and its cronies arrange a lot of money for the Democrats including in Hollywood.

    **************************************

  116. Imran Khan — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:47 pm  

    Bananabrain – “hear bloody hear. and, in fact, whatever we seem to say it never seems to be enough to meet the “evenhandedness” criteria of the imrans of this world.”

    Oh grow up. I didn’t ask her to be even handed – I asked her to participate in the debate and not resort to the rhetoric of they have this much land.

    Its strange that anyone who calls people critical of Israel – Islamist, anti-semtic etc. is deemed worthy of your friendship and anyone who asks people to be fair and just is deemed a raving Islamist. Is it any wonder that you like Faisal but then complain about the lack of community cohesion.

    If you won’t discuss the issues then how do you expect engagement?

    Fine you may get nutters from both sides saying stupid and hurtful things but that doesn’t mean you don’t try.

  117. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 2:50 pm  

    Not as sad as seeing what PP has become in 4 short years.

    Faisal – the amusing thing is that when the coverage focused a lot on terrorism, Refresh used to say the same as you. You guys are a parody and a mirror of each other.

    But if I was that affected by people telling me what I should write about or not, I would have given up blogging ages ago.

    If all you’re going to come here to do is derail threads with more whataboutery then it’s not very welcome. If you’re going to engage the topic in hand then it’s very welcome. You were given free reign on this blog to write about the issues you wanted to. You’ve chosen to go and start your own blog. I wish you all the luck with that, but with due respect don’t tell me what the fuck I should be writing about and I won’t do the same with you.

    Hope I’ve made myself clear.

  118. Boyo — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:02 pm  

    Talk of “derailing” is interesting – sometimes the medium is the message, and Sunny’s choice of subjects can speak as loudly as their detail, which is what i think some are responding to.

    Sad to see Sid has moved on, although instructive.

  119. Denim Justice — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:04 pm  

    Yeah it coincided with the fact that Sunny and others on PP criticised Israel over the war in Gaza, whereas Sid/Faisal Gazi, HP et al would have preferred to carry on blaming the victims in that conflict.

    Very instructive indeed.

  120. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:05 pm  

    Faisal – the amusing thing is that when the coverage focused a lot on terrorism, Refresh used to say the same as you. You guys are a parody and a mirror of each other.

    Refresh is a soft-Islamist who worries when there is too much coverage against Islamists.

    You can say what you like for smokescreen Sunny, but the fact is the coverage on PP on the Iranian elections have been pitiful.

    Given that this is a story of democracy, something which I prided PP to be about when I wrote here, your excuses are pitiful.

    Don’t you think that the absence of any articles on the recent post election troubles in Iran on PP is conspicuous by their absence? Given the numbers of Islamists that now congregate who purport here speaking on behalf of Muslims shows that it has lost its way. It’s become the liberal’s version of MPACKuk.

  121. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:09 pm  

    Yeah it coincided with the fact that Sunny and others on PP criticised Israel over the war in Gaza, whereas Sid/Faisal Gazi, HP et al would have preferred to carry on blaming the victims in that conflict.

    For the record, I broke the story of the Israel attack on Gaza here on PP on Dec 27 2008. I also maintained a principled criticisms of the Israeli onslaught coupled with a critiques of Hamas and its campaign of rockets aimed at civilians in Southern Israel.

    So, your fabricated stories are making you look like a bit of a fool.

  122. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:11 pm  

    Faisal
    “Refresh is a soft-Islamist who worries when there is too much coverage against Islamists. ”

    And you are a soft-zionist who worries when there is too much coverage against Israel.

    ” Given the numbers of Islamists that now congregate who purport here speaking on behalf of Muslims shows that it has lost its way. ”

    Whereas it is self-hating zionists and appeasers to Muslim haters such as yourself,who truly speak on behalf of Muslims.

  123. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:20 pm  

    Thanks Sunny! LOL

  124. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:21 pm  

    Oh yeah, the fact that I haven’t written about the Iranian elections, despite the fact that I have, and it’s obvious where my sympathies lie – is the best retort you can come up with? Oh dear. So sad.

  125. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:21 pm  

    Whereas it is self-hating zionists and appeasers to Muslim haters such as yourself,who truly speak on behalf of Muslims.

    Those library books beckon.

  126. Sunny — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:25 pm  

    Hmmm, let me see what I wrote a few days ago:

    No mention of all the brutal killings. No discussion of why hundreds of thousands of people were angrily on the street.

    George Galloway isn’t on the far-left any more; he has simply become a supporter of a brutal autocratic theocracy. There’s no ideological justification – he just wants more of that Iranian cream.

    Oh yeah, that’s me declaring my love for Ahmedinijad right there! That’s how much I love the Iranian regime! There’s complete silence and appreciation of the Iranian actions right there! Ahmedinijad must be gleeful that the mighty Sunny Hundal hasn’t condemned him harshly enough on his blog.

    In fact, forget Refresh, you’ve become a mirror of Melanie Phillips Faisal.

  127. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:30 pm  

    Sad to see Sid has moved on, although instructive.

    It is, in what way?

  128. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:33 pm  

    An attack of Galloway, the easiest target in the book, is a championing of the entire Iranian pro-democracy movement that has unfolded before our eyes in the last two weeks?

    And just because of your failure to address that, and just because you are called up on it, I get likended to Melanie Phillips?

    Man, The more you approach “offical” party politics, the more cretinous your assertions become. Things are worse than I thought.

  129. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:33 pm  

    you’ve become a mirror of Melanie Phillips Faisal.

    Sunny, that’s uncalled for. Seriously mate, let’s not get into smearing our friends (and Faisal is your friend because you said so yourself), difference of view and tactics doesn’t mean we all become like that idiot Phillips.

    We’re still broadly all in favour of the same kind of society.

  130. marvin — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:36 pm  

    Islamists do appear to have taken over the pickled asylum… they certainly produce about 70-80% of the hot air on these threads.

    You’d expect liberals to be challenging them constantly. But not so.

    I think much of it is that the Islamists and their defenders have adopted the language of the left. Hence the cross over, where Osama Bin Laden will big up books by Western liberals such as Chomsky and Pilger, and vice versa Guardian liberals will invite Hamas and other Islamists to write essays and speak at their organic free-range don’t hurt the hay hay festival events…

  131. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:50 pm  

    marvin
    “You’d expect liberals to be challenging them constantly. But not so. ”

    Liberals like yourself you mean. Who opposed a person being appointed head of BBC religion… because he is a Muslim.

    “I think much of it is that the Islamists and their defenders have adopted the language of the left. Hence the cross over, where Osama Bin Laden will big up books by Western liberals such as Chomsky and Pilger, and vice versa Guardian liberals will invite Hamas and other Islamists to write essays and speak at their organic free-range don’t hurt the hay hay festival events…”

    Much like Zionists and the far right and that stuff about “eurabia” and “Islamization”. Reading HP isnt that different from visiting the BNP’s website.

  132. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:52 pm  

    marvin
    “I think much of it is that the Islamists and their defenders have adopted the language of the left. Hence the cross over, where Osama Bin Laden will big up books by Western liberals such as Chomsky and Pilger, and vice versa Guardian liberals will invite Hamas and other Islamists to write essays and speak at their organic free-range don’t hurt the hay hay festival events…”

    Who on here has defended Osama Bin laden?
    And comparing Hamas to him is sophistry

  133. Denim Justice — on 24th June, 2009 at 3:59 pm  

    I think it is sad that Faisal and Sunny have fallen out, but it might have something more to do about the fact that Faisal’s political compass has changed quite a bit over the last year or so. Witness his unmasking and setting up a new blog. It’s a bit like the class Cohen/Aaronovitch/C.Hitchens swing from pugnacious extremist secular left to pugnacious extremist secular right.

    Sunny is a stand-up guy – and the line of “you haven’t criticised/defended Iran/Islam/Israel enough about this so obviously you are an appeaser of Islamofascists/Zionazis” is really really lame. Let’s stick to the substantive please.

  134. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:16 pm  

    Has there been a falling out? Sunny himself has said he and Faisal are friends, and in fact when out for a drink just the other day. The net has a way of amplifying people’s disagreements into looking like a full blown war.

    Of course it doesn’t help with various people cheer leading what see as being Sunny or Faisal’s sides…

  135. halima — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:18 pm  

    Iran.

    Is all over the news. As it should be.

    The point about Pickled Politics is to give voice to stories that might not get picked up by the mainstream media in the same way.

    Pickled Politics is in fact , more democratic, for it. Coz it doesn’t just peddle what the mainstream is doing.

  136. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:25 pm  

    Sunny and I are thick as thieves. I’m just disappointed in the way he’s turned PP into a common room for Islamists and their fellow travellers.

  137. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:26 pm  

    The point about Pickled Politics is to give voice to stories that might not get picked up by the mainstream media in the same way.

    Pickled Politics is in fact , more democratic, for it. Coz it doesn’t just peddle what the mainstream is doing.

    Well quite. Also, we have jobs, lives, increasingly annoyed partners (joke!) we can’t cover everything in the way every one would like. Nor should we try and please everyone.

    Sometimes something is covered so extensively [in the msm] we don’t feel we can add anything new. Other times we get caught up in the news agenda. We’re not perfect.

    Oh yeah I think a mistake is being made here, too many people are looking at Sunny’s output in very narrow terms as in PP. He’s linking to stuff on Twitter, a lot too. It may not always be PP but then he’s involved in so many things PP can’t always be a high priority for him…

    And finally,

    I’ll say it again, if you don’t like what we’re covering, how we’re covering or what we’re not covering. You have two simple options:

    1) Write your own blog
    2) Offer to write a piece for our Speakers Corner day

  138. Denim Justice — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:28 pm  

    Sid/Faisal took Door Number One, yet still insists on saying that PP doesn’t cover this or that issue from this or that angle. Why?

  139. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

    It’s a bit like the class Cohen/Aaronovitch/C.Hitchens swing from pugnacious extremist secular left to pugnacious extremist secular right.

    Thanks for the cod-psychology, but if you look at my posts above the line, here on PP, you will see that my politics haven’t changed in the slightest.

    Sid/Faisal took Door Number One, yet still insists on saying that PP doesn’t cover this or that issue from this or that angle. Why?

    Why not? I have more of an emotional investment with this blog than you have, being here since day one and helped shape it’s editorial line with Sunny.

  140. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

    Denim give it up, like we don’t need shit stirrers.

  141. Shamit — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:42 pm  

    I second Leon.

    **********************
    Halima

    good points as usual.

    ********************
    Sunny/Faisal

    You guys are worse than Hannity and Colmes.

    ********************

  142. Paul Moloney — on 24th June, 2009 at 4:54 pm  

    “The point about Pickled Politics is to give voice to stories that might not get picked up by the mainstream media in the same way.”

    Yes, indeed; there simply isn’t enough coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict. If enough people are encouraged to be shouty about it on the internet, we might even solve it.

    P.

  143. BenSix — on 24th June, 2009 at 5:12 pm  

    “I’m just disappointed in the way he’s turned PP into a common room for Islamists and their fellow travellers.”

    Really?

    Crikey…

    Then what are Paul, Ravi, Bananabrain, Marian, Amrit, Sonia, Jai, Marvin, Golam, Chairwoman (ooh, and me – and plenty more besides…) doing here?

  144. Ravi Naik — on 24th June, 2009 at 5:33 pm  

    Then what are Paul, Ravi, Bananabrain, Marian, Amrit, Sonia, Jai, Marvin, Golam, Chairwoman (ooh, and me – and plenty more besides…) doing here?

    Sunny (Leon and Rumbold) deserve a lot of credit for creating one of the best blogs in the UK. I don’t agree with them on all issues, but I respect their integrity and commitment to progressive values here and elsewhere. This blog is thought-provoking, intelligent, and diverse thanks to a number of commenters from different backgrounds, and belief systems. Like a good bottle of wine, it just gets better with age. :)

  145. Boyo — on 24th June, 2009 at 6:10 pm  

    Instructive because it does appear that voices that dissent from the orthodox line – and its implicit appeasement of religious fascists in the spirit of my enemy’s enemy – has been shouted down. Sunny has made his choice, Sid has made his. I was always a marginal commenter here and ceased participating after the orgy of anti-semitism over Gaza. I recently returned because… well I was bored. But PP’s polarisation appears to have continued and made constructive debate pointless. The Spitoon might hold more promise…

  146. Rumbold — on 24th June, 2009 at 6:40 pm  

    This thread has depressed me more than any thread I can remember. Please can we just try and discuss the issues at hand. This is what happens when people play the “why aren’t you saying it game.” Far too many people do it.

  147. Rumbold — on 24th June, 2009 at 6:41 pm  

    And no, it isn’t a dig at anyone in particular. It just makes me sad.

  148. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 7:20 pm  

    Well said.

  149. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 7:58 pm  

    Let me help everyone out.

    It is crucial to understand Netanyahu’s response to Obama. So the post is quite appropriate.

    It is equally important to understand Iran. The two events together bring us to particulary scary scenario.

    The obvious question, setting aside the election results for the moment, how is Iran’s foreign policy affected with Ahmedinajad gone; and for Israel, are they more likely or less likely to bomb Iran with Mousavi in power?

    Another question, if Ahmedinajad had not been in power over the last few years, would the US have invaded Iran after Iraq?

  150. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 8:00 pm  

    ‘Sunny (Leon and Rumbold) deserve a lot of credit for creating one of the best blogs in the UK. I don’t agree with them on all issues, but I respect their integrity and commitment to progressive values here and elsewhere.’

    Agree with Ravi on this with the emphasis on ‘I respect their integrity and commitment’.

  151. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 8:12 pm  

    Bensix, I would add myself to your list but that would be giving into the Sid/Faisal’s world of us and them. No one knows who he will be label islamist and now soft-islamist; soom to be differentiated goose-feathered islamist and of course the cuddly softdown islamist.

    He turned himself into a joke when he attempted to negotiate with Imran that he wouldn’t label him an islamist if he did something else in return. I forget what.

    The man is bonkers or he is trying to catch someone’s eye somewhere. And its not working.

  152. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 8:30 pm  

    Can we please stop with the smearing of Faisal please? So he’s left. Get over it. So he has different views to you, get a fucking grip.

    I’m sorry to have a go Refresh because I actually value you as a contributor and do look forward to meeting you one day but this has gotten infantile.

    Play the ball, not the man.

  153. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 8:49 pm  

    Leon, no more from me.

  154. modernityblog — on 24th June, 2009 at 9:47 pm  

    You’d think (even today with killings in the streets of Tehran) that there was only ONE country (Israel) in the Middle East, not 20+?

    Doesn’t it strike you as a bit, mentally, unhealthy to be so drawn to this topic, time after time after time?

    Cue rants about “Zionists”?

  155. BenSix — on 24th June, 2009 at 9:55 pm  

    Modernity

    “You’d think (even today with killings in the streets of Tehran) that there was only ONE country (Israel) in the Middle East, not 20+?”

    Taking a pleasant little jaunt down the front page, I note that there’s 4 posts on Iran and one on I/P.

    “Doesn’t it strike you as a bit, mentally, unhealthy to be so drawn to this topic, time after time after time?”

    There’s been one post on Israel in the past month. If you think that’s pathological then – well, I won’t stoop to accusations of mental illness – foolish.

    “Cue rants about “Zionists”?”

    Would “bad faith” do?

  156. modernityblog — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:02 pm  

    I wouldn’t accuse anyone of bad faith, maybe sloppy thinking, even of political OCD, but not bad faith.

  157. BenSix — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:13 pm  

    “…maybe sloppy thinking, even of political OCD…”

    Political OCD? Is that the “mentally, unhealthy” shizzle you inaccurately accused — well — this blog of?

    “…but not bad faith.”

    Then why the assumption that there’ll be “rants about “Zionists”“? Sure, Munir’s posts are liberally sprinkled with that term, but, then, you weren’t addressing him.

  158. modernityblog — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:23 pm  

    BenSix,

    Something can be mentally unhealthy without relating to mental illness.

    I suggest you re-read my comment.

    Personally, I think that rather British preoccupation, in the past 30 years, with primarily one country in the Middle East is silly.

    That’s my view.

    If you think that British coverage of the wider Middle East is fine, then that would be your view, I don’t hold to that.

  159. BenSix — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:33 pm  

    “Personally, I think that rather British preoccupation, in the past 30 years, with primarily one country in the Middle East is silly.”

    Fair enough, except that’s not what you wrote. You accused this blog – Sunny, I assume – of being “drawn to this topic, time after time after time” and speculated that it might be “mentally, unhealthy“.

    As I demonstrated, though, the I/P issues haven’t come up in over a month, whereas Iran – the nation you contrased it with – is being posted on regularly.

    Why am I pressing the point?

    Well, actually, I’ve no idea.

  160. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:43 pm  

    Faisal
    “Sunny and I are thick as thieves. I’m just disappointed in the way he’s turned PP into a common room for Islamists and their fellow travellers.”

    Sunny has no say over who posts on the threads and its not as if he had an “islamist (sic)” post an article. Since all manner of BNPers, hinduvata and zionist wingnuts post on here your singling out “Islamists” (sic) is symptomatic of your own demons and hatred.

    What do suggest Sunny does? Delete any post that defends Islam or Muslims or groups you dont like?

    Yeah thatll show the “Islamists” (sic) the wonders of progressive politics and free speech you pay lip service too. Since you “write” alot about political Islam the fact you dont want to even engage with people who might be involved in it and instead run along to another blog just reveals what a pointless individual you are. The Quillaim Foundation operate similiar tactics ducking tactics but they are smart enough to get millions out of the government to do so.

    Apologies for posting on wrong thread

  161. Amrit — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:45 pm  

    Sunny: still dedicated to driving away our last few Jewish commentators…

    Sorry, couldn’t resist. Seriously though, I hope that bb, chairwoman et al will stay around, please, to provide clarification on things that Sunny doesn’t always necessarily know about/write about with the necessary nuance.

    There has been a growth in anti-Semitism on PP, I feel, but a MUCH larger growth in stupidity. Please, let’s try not to let the dumbasses grind us down?

  162. Leon — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:50 pm  

    Seconded.

  163. modernityblog — on 24th June, 2009 at 10:51 pm  

    I think there is a British compunction to go on about the Middle East, and on and on without doing anything positive.

    I can see that it is a very useful, psychological, release mechanism.

    In British society it is perfectly acceptable to have a good rant about Israel and about “Zionists”. You only need to read CiF to see that.

    But I think that’s a bit unhealthy, mentally speaking.

    Let me explain it another way, suppose hypothetically, an American, distant from these lands, constantly insisted on discussing Europe.

    But when the topic came up he only focused on France, he could tell you about every devious Frenchman, every broken deal, how they were untrustworthy and certainly not grateful of wartime aid in WW2, etc, etc

    If that said American did it, week in week out, never troubling to mention any of the other 27 members of the EU, but rather returning to the supposed iniquities of the French character time and time again, then most people would see a problem with that behaviour.

    It would be repetitive, destructive and fairly useless.

    But instead of France and instead of an American suppose that the topic was Israel and the individual concerned British, without too be a bit unusual?

    Obsessing about a distant country and never troubling to think of the other neighbouring states?

    Consider this, there are some 21+ members of the Arab league, numerous countries in the Middle East. Massive populations.

    Yet if we were to tally up the output from the Guardian, or some other quality British broadsheet, then the coverage of one single country, Israel, would outweigh, by many column inches, all of the other members of the Arab league put together.

    So I can’t believe that 6 million Israelis are slightly more newsworthy than the combined 300 million plus population of the members of the Arab league.

    Don’t you find that puzzling? I know I do.

  164. modernityblog — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:00 pm  

    ops typo, should be:

    But instead of France and instead of an American suppose that the topic was Israel and the individual concerned British, would that too be a bit unusual?

  165. munir — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:05 pm  

    modernityblog
    “Yet if we were to tally up the output from the Guardian, or some other quality British broadsheet, then the coverage of one single country, Israel, would outweigh, by many column inches, all of the other members of the Arab league put together.

    So I can’t believe that 6 million Israelis are slightly more newsworthy than the combined 300 million plus population of the members of the Arab league.”

    Why are British Muslims who represnt 3% of the population more newsworthy than the other 97%?

    With regards the other 300 million members of the Arab league – depends who they are and if there is a conflict in their country. No one would say Iraq hasnt been getting coverage in the last few years. Morroco a fascinating country has gotten very little coverage because there is stability there and no war.

    Its not rocket science- if it bleeds it leads

    There is conflict in I/P hence there is coverage.

    It also works the other way too- Jewish suffering in WWII is focussed on to an extent that dwarfs other human suffering past and present.

  166. modernityblog — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:14 pm  

    Plenty of conflicts in 21+ countries, but do we hear about them?

  167. Ravi Naik — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:15 pm  

    There has been a growth in anti-Semitism on PP, I feel, but a MUCH larger growth in stupidity. Please, let’s try not to let the dumbasses grind us down

    Not sure about the growth. I find the same people saying the same things in I/P threads. Followed by meta-discussions, like this one. It would be useful to name names: who are the anti-Semites?

  168. Refresh — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:25 pm  

    Modernityblog,

    Its disengenuous to ask the world to focus on the conflict de jour. You can’t carry on doing that. Not when there is the mother of all conflicts that has centred on Israel for the last SIXTY years.

    Obama has thrown down the gauntlet, stop the settlements, Netanyahu says get stuffed. That is not news and not worthy of comment?

    Stop being silly.

    As for Iran, tell me would Netanyahu be less inclined to bomb Iran unilaterally with a new Iranian president, although nuclear policy remains the same?

    Tell us. Without the obfuscation.

  169. modernity — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:37 pm  

    Forgive me, if you think I was being disengenuous.

    I made a comment about British society, as *I* see it.

    That’s it.

    You either see it or you don’t, you either think about it or you don’t, that’s all up to you.

    But I would like to thank Amrit and others. I used to check out PP a lot, but now I don’t. Shame, some very informed people here.

    G’nite.

  170. BenSix — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:37 pm  

    “Consider this, there are some 21+ members of the Arab league, numerous countries in the Middle East. Massive populations.

    Yet if we were to tally up the output from the Guardian, or some other quality British broadsheet, then the coverage of one single country, Israel, would outweigh, by many column inches, all of the other members of the Arab league put together.”

    Higher than Iraq, India, Somalia, Saudi Arabia etc put together? I doubt it.

    “So I can’t believe that 6 million Israelis are slightly more newsworthy than the combined 300 million plus population of the members of the Arab league.”

    Firstly, I don’t think that population is a particularly useful arbiter of newsworth…iness, as it doesn’t determine other factors: global influence, wealth, involvement in conflict etc. For example, there are over three times as many Indonesians as Englanders, but I’d bet my life that we get at least three times more column inches globally.

    There are several fractious, important issues regarding Israeli affairs: the situation in Gaza, tensions/warmongering with or against Iran, a particularly influential lobby etc – all issues of such international relevance that they demand greater coverage than the internal politics of, say, Qatar, Bahrain or Oman.

    And that, I think, is where your allegory takes a bit of a blow. There are several internationally relevant issues concerning Israel that distinguish it among other Middle Eastern countries. That isn’t, as far as I know, true of France in Europe.

    Are there people who give too much attention to Israel? Yes, I’d say so – academic boycotts, for example, I find perplexing. Is there sometimes too much news coverage? Possibly – though I’d say it’s more that there’s not enough coverage of other areas (off the top of my head – the bogusness of the “War On Terror”, the, erm, continuity of Barack Obama and the state of the Balkans).

    However, I don’t find it particularly aberrant, and I do think you’re exaggerating. Press coverage is inconsistent: for example, 72 people were slaughtered by a bomb in Iraq today, and yet the deaths in Iran received far greater coverage. What’s more interesting is different standards – so, for example Roxana Saberi was covered (rightly) but Ibrahim Jassam has barely had a mention.

  171. modernity — on 24th June, 2009 at 11:38 pm  

    PS: I forgot to add there are about 340 conflicts in the world…..a number to ponder….

  172. Sunny — on 25th June, 2009 at 12:12 am  

    Heh. Gotta love the amount of people who come out on PP complaining about the apparently disproportionate coverage of Israel/Palestine (I guess the plight of Palestinians should be ignored then because their population isn’t large enough!) in the rare blue moon a thread about I/P comes up.

    What’s more amusing is that no one actually discusses the post in question. All sorts of stuff about neo-nazis, anti-semites, PP’s editorial policy, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and anything else is discussed than the actual content of the original article.

    I thought I’d already explained why I/P gets more coverage during the time people were playing the ‘oh why aren’t these nasty leftists writing about Sri Lanka now?‘ game. Perhaps I should re-post that article.

  173. modernity — on 25th June, 2009 at 12:30 am  

    Sunny,

    Forgive me, but if you are not going to represent what I argued, then I really can’t be troubled to debate the issue with you.

    I pointed out a few anomalies in British society as I saw them, you’ve ignored them, so there’s not much more to be said, is there?

    If you don’t listen, then people ain’t going to exchange views with you, honestly.

    PS: My views on Bibi are on the web, if you are actually interested in someone’s else views, which I seriously doubt. And when you find them you’ll see I am not too complementary about him.

  174. Amrit — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:04 am  

    Ravi:

    While munir/blah and Imran Khan may not necessarily see themselves as anti-Semites, their behaviour certainly veers that way at times. In the case of the former, particularly, he doesn’t need I/P threads to get going as you may well have noticed yourself…

    In all fairness to Imran though, his response to Bananabrain further up was very reasonable. I think he does get a bit over-emotional and may write things that are pushing it at times, but I don’t think he’s a bigot in the way b/m is. I hope not.

    Given the general increase in traffic, there have also been other ‘just-passing’ types spouting similar views, I’m sure. Although, as I said, the increase in stupidity in general is more noteworthy. There seems to be nary an article nowadays that doesn’t have SOME ignorant contrarian popping up, who’s never been seen on PP before. Conveniently enough.

    Sunny – in case you hadn’t noticed, it’s not actually possible to have a discussion about what you said, when the inevitable heated atmosphere pervades. Furthermore, what do you expect of us? To say: ‘Yes, you’re right’ or ‘No, you’re wrong’? Your article kinda states the obvious without really adding much else (oh for the days of longer, less frequent and more analytical posts! OK, OK, I’ll go back to my cage now… :-D ) Bananabrain already made some interesting points in #14.

  175. bananabrain — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:25 am  

    what amrit just said.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  176. platinum786 — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:34 am  

    Faisal, your going overboard with the “Islamist” label.

    You might not like people like refresh, Munir, probably me too, but that doesn’t change the simple fact that some of what is said by us, is reflective of popular Muslim opinion.

    If your really as progressively minded as you say you are and sometimes demonstrate to be, then why are you involved with this mud slinging contest with Munir? Why shoot the messenger? I say it’d be more productive to challenge the message surely?

    I’ve raised a simple point, which Munir has expanded on. A lot of Muslim people don’t trust the USA and the UK regarding their foreign policy wrt the Muslim world as it has been littered with contradictions, today and in the past.

    Why does Kashmiri democracy not get the same headlines as Iranian democracy? Even to the most simple minded person you can at least see a contradition there in their actions.

    You can either defend that contradiction, or accept it exists, or challenge it, or ignore it, what i don’t understand is the hostility towards those who raise it.

  177. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:43 am  

    “It is crucial to understand Netanyahu’s response to Obama. So the post is quite appropriate.”

    Not for anybody here it isn’t. We don’t live in the middle east, and if we’re honest, it has no effect on our day to day lives whatsoever. What actually happens here is that we fight proxy, pathetic,armchair battles.

    But if it is “crucial to understand Netanyahu’s response”, let’s look at it a little more pragmatically than most Picklers seem able.

    He is a politician voted in by Israelis. They are literally his constituents, and his duty is to them. Therefore his obligation, as with any politician in a similar capacity is to put his toe in the water.

    For a right-wing Israeli politician, and let me lay my stall out here, his party is not one for which I would vote were I an Israeli voter, his response was extremely measured, and went considerably further than his core supporters wanted. I don’t think anybody outside the commenters here expects that all the settlements will be dismantled, or given over to the Palestinian Authority. I imagine that some compromise will be reached, and that all sides already have some idea what that will be, and each are working cautiously towards that in a way that will satisfy their various peoples.

    I am astonished that a man with Sunny’s political aspirations allows it to appear that he is so naive.

  178. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:45 am  

    Amrit
    “While munir/blah and Imran Khan may not necessarily see themselves as anti-Semites, their behaviour certainly veers that way at times.”

    And you may not see yourself as a Muslim hater (though your parents are genocidal freaks) but your behaviour
    certainly veers that way at times

  179. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:51 am  

    platinum786
    “You might not like people like refresh, Munir, probably me too, but that doesn’t change the simple fact that some of what is said by us, is reflective of popular Muslim opinion. ”

    Exactly. Getting a few hand picked quislings like the Quilliam Foundation doesnt change this fact.

    “If your really as progressively minded as you say you are and sometimes demonstrate to be, then why are you involved with this mud slinging contest with Munir? Why shoot the messenger? I say it’d be more productive to challenge the message surely?”

    What I find astonishing about Faisal is he raises Muslim related issues then is angry and leaves PP when Muslims come and comment on them!! Its as if he wants to debate these issues with his zionist pals and Muslims cant get involved in talking about themselves!

    The problem is he dislikes Muslims too much to do so

    Such people wont engage with majority Muslim opinion (rather they want to silence it) and so are an irrelevance. They wants to talk to not with Muslims.

  180. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:54 am  

    “As for Iran, tell me would Netanyahu be less inclined to bomb Iran unilaterally with a new Iranian president, although nuclear policy remains the same?”

    It would depend, I would imagine, on the new Iranian president’s policy towards Israel.

  181. Rumbold — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:55 am  

    Munir:

    Not sure why Amrit is a Muslim hater simply because she pointed out that you veer into anti-semitism sometimes.

  182. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:57 am  

    “thought I’d already explained why I/P gets more coverage during the time people were playing the ‘oh why aren’t these nasty leftists writing about Sri Lanka now?‘ game. Perhaps I should re-post that article.”

    Why bother? It was a bit of flannel then, and would read the same now :) .

  183. platinum786 — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:00 am  

    We don’t live in the middle east, and if we’re honest, it has no effect on our day to day lives whatsoever.

    Nearly 8 years on since “911″ and you still don’t get it. Maybe you do get it, but don’t accept it? It affected our lives then, it affectes our lives on the 7th July 2005, it’s been affecting Muslim lives for more than a century.

    One of the most vivid examples of the difference between the Muslim world and the western world is the low intesity conflict that is called “Terrorism” and “the war on terrorism”.

    Everyone is so quick to blame Islam and Muslims and political and cultural differences for terrorism, but what really has been done to resolve political and cultural differences? Several wars, they really helped.

    I don’t think anybody outside the commenters here expects that all the settlements will be dismantled, or given over to the Palestinian Authority.

    How long did you wait for the creation of Israel? Your right that nothing will happen, but you forget to end that sentence correctly, nothing will happen, yet. Who knows where the world will be in 2047.

  184. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:00 am  

    Exactly. Getting a few hand picked quislings like the Quilliam Foundation doesnt change this fact.

    and

    The problem is he dislikes Muslims too much to do so

    Use of the word “quisling” and the second slur by a bigot and an anti-semite who is on record for sneering at the (Muslim) victims of the Jamaat-backed genocide of Bangladeshis seems a little incongruous.

  185. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:05 am  

    Not sure why Amrit is a Muslim hater simply because she pointed out that you veer into anti-semitism sometimes.

    It’s becoming a tired tactic of this troll, now embedded into every PP thread that I have read since the beginning of this year.

    Play up the “I am a downtrodden Muslim” schtik and accuse everyone of being a “Muslim-hater” for disagreeing with his bogus Islamist discourse.

  186. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:27 am  

    “Nearly 8 years on since “911″ and you still don’t get it. Maybe you do get it, but don’t accept it? It affected our lives then, it affectes our lives on the 7th July 2005, it’s been affecting Muslim lives for more than a century.”

    No Platinum, you’re the one who doesn’t get it.

    There is absolutely no excuse for people of any faith or ethnicity to initiate explosions in the USA and UK because of the policies of a third country, be it Israel, Saudi Arabia or any other. End of (as they say).

    I doubt very much if Israel/Palestine affected anybody 100 years ago as the situation just didn’t exist.

  187. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:40 am  

    Faisal 25th June, 2009 at 9:05 am
    “It’s becoming a tired tactic of this troll, now embedded into every PP thread that I have read since the beginning of this year.

    Play up the “I am a downtrodden Muslim” schtik and accuse everyone of being a “Muslim-hater” for disagreeing with his bogus Islamist discourse.”

    Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:00 am

    “Use of the word “quisling” and the second slur by a bigot and an anti-semite ”

    hehe

  188. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:44 am  

    Rumbold
    “Munir:

    Not sure why Amrit is a Muslim hater simply because she pointed out that you veer into anti-semitism sometimes.”

    Hey I thought Id meet wild accusation with wild accusation! So sue me

  189. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:45 am  

    While munir/blah and Imran Khan may not necessarily see themselves as anti-Semites, their behaviour certainly veers that way at times. In the case of the former, particularly, he doesn’t need I/P threads to get going as you may well have noticed yourself…

    All I see is that Sunny brought a legitimate subject – something that pissed me off as well when I read it first in the news, and some commenters here resented the fact that he was not talking about something else.

    I thought banabrain’s comment (#14 )about netanyahu’s tactic to be quite interesting, so why should we not talk about this issue and give opportunity to people who know about the subject to talk about them?

    In my view, there is not an increase of anti-semitism in PP. We have platinium and munir who have their limitations, and one hopes that exposure to the “other” allows them to grow into fully mature people.

    The only thing I feel that Sunny should have done is to use the term “Israeli government” instead of “Israel”.

  190. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:49 am  

    chairwoman
    “There is absolutely no excuse for people of any faith or ethnicity to initiate explosions in the USA and UK because of the policies of a third country, be it Israel, Saudi Arabia or any other. End of (as they say).”

    So what excuse is there for the UK/US invading a invading Muslim countries thousands of miles away who never threatened it and slaughtering hundreds of thousands or for European Jews to dispossess a people of their country thousand of miles away because they were persecuted in Europe ?

    You seem full of those excuses

    Bombing the US and UK isnt ok – why is bombing Iraq or Palestine?

  191. Jai — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:54 am  

    (though your parents are genocidal freaks)

    This remark was completely stepping over the line and I think Amrit deserves an apology for it, irrespective of how many differences of opinion there may be on other matters.

    Munir, I assume that you are not the type of man who would stoop to saying that sort of thing to a woman’s face in real life, so perhaps you should reconsider behaving that way here.

  192. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 9:54 am  

    Ravi naik
    “In my view, there is not an increase of anti-semitism in PP. We have platinium and munir who have their limitations, and one hopes that exposure to the “other” allows them to grow into fully mature people.”

    Its hilarious that you dont say the same about anti-Muslim discourse

    People will come on here and say outragously anti-Muslim things and no one bats an eyelid – yet theyll scream “anti-semitism” anytime someone points out wrong doing by he Israelis

  193. Shamit — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:04 am  

    “And you may not see yourself as a Muslim hater (though your parents are genocidal freaks) but your behaviour
    certainly veers that way at times”

    Munir

    If you want to have a go at Amrit — I guess you can. But why accuse her parents. But your comments don’t reflect badly on Amrit but on you.

    And your idiotic behaviour is getting out of control. As Jai suggested you might want to rein yourself in unless you want to receive replies in kind. However, I don’t think anyone can stoop that low.

    May be you ought to take a leaf out of Platinum’s book about growing up.

  194. platinum786 — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:04 am  

    here is absolutely no excuse for people of any faith or ethnicity to initiate explosions in the USA and UK because of the policies of a third country,

    Your 100% correct. Let me assure you though, you don’t get it. I didn’t carry out 911, I’m simply telling you what the people who carried it out claimed as their justification for it.

    The world is very tribal, like gangs alomost, who you choose to roll with can be as much as a consequence as your own actions. I don’t think that’s reasonable at all, but I have no control over how the world behaves and acts.

    America and Britain have been attacking the Muslim world and supporting a country who has been attacking the Muslim world. Some Muslims decided to take it upon themselves to attack the US/UK mainland. I don’t condone their actions, but we all know that is what happened. They left us vidoes telling us themselves.

    I personally don’t think peace would stop and individual like Osama Bin Laden, or the core of his organisation. He’s after conquest, not peace. People who are after peace, don’t kill for it, I know, The Afghan war is about revenge not peace, the war in Iraq was about oil, not peace. Al queda is about conquest not peace, they simply hide behind all the political BS, in the same way Britain and America hid behind WMD and the propaganda to market their wars.

    What I would like you to think about is this. If the Muslim world was represented by an A4 sheet of paper and membership of Al Queda was a black dot on that sheet you wouldn’t notice it with the naked eye, it’s that insignificant. What you may notice is the number of people who lack sympathy for the states which become the victims of Al Queda, please note, I refer specifically to States, not inviduals.

    If 911 had happened in China, or Japan, or Switzerland, or Brazil, or Venezuela, or Mexico, or Cameroon, or South Africa or in Finland, do you think the blot which represents the number of people who lack sympathy with the states who become victims of Al Queda would have increased in size or decreased in size?

  195. Shamit — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:06 am  

    Munir

    Further if you are British citizen you should be ashamed of saying that you don’t mind the UK being bombed by some assholes – whatever their gripes may be. If you are British that is.

    If you hate the UK so much why don’t you just leave – no one is stopping you. Go to Pakistan. But don’t ruin the mature discourse that is going on here.

  196. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:07 am  

    Chairwoman – “There is absolutely no excuse for people of any faith or ethnicity to initiate explosions in the USA and UK because of the policies of a third country, be it Israel, Saudi Arabia or any other. End of (as they say).

    I doubt very much if Israel/Palestine affected anybody 100 years ago as the situation just didn’t exist.”

    Agreed – There is no excuse for this in any country. Its that simple.

    The Israel/Palestinian issue is being adversely affected by the politics outside of the region. Everyone knows what the peace agreement will be but due to domestic politics outside then Politicians lack the courage to do justice to this issue.

  197. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:09 am  

    Its hilarious that you dont say the same about anti-Muslim discourse
    People will come on here and say outragously anti-Muslim things and no one bats an eyelid – yet theyll scream “anti-semitism” anytime someone points out wrong doing by he Israelis

    1) Yes, those that scream anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism whenever there is criticism about Israeli policies in regards to Gaza and West Bank are wrong.

    2) You, not our resident Jewish commentors, engage in hateful – and yes anti-semitic – language. I understand your frustration about the Israel government – I do too, but you have absolutely no right to insult anyone here. Furthermore, telling someone that they support genocide or that their parents have genocidal tendencies because of their origin, is completely out of line. That game is very easy to play, and you more than anyone knows what it feels to be in the receiving end – so why are you doing it yourself?

    3) There is a distinction between feeling strongly about the issues (which you do), and attacking people because of their origin. If you are unable to distinguish between both, I suggest you leave.

  198. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:14 am  

    Shamit
    “Further if you are British citizen you should be ashamed of saying that you don’t mind the UK being bombed by some assholes – whatever their gripes may be. If you are British that is.”

    I never said any such thing.Liar

    “If you hate the UK so much why don’t you just leave – no one is stopping you. Go to Pakistan. But don’t ruin the mature discourse that is going on here”

    LOL Wow Shamit’s joined the BNP

    I thick you should go back to school and learn to read properly

  199. platinum786 — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:17 am  

    In Munirs defence, I don’t think he has actually said anywhere that he doesn’t mind terrorism in the UK.

    Any sane minded individual would oppose terrorism everywhere, especially within their own home.

  200. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:21 am  

    “So what excuse is there for the UK/US invading a invading Muslim countries thousands of miles away who never threatened it and slaughtering hundreds of thousands or for European Jews to dispossess a people of their country thousand of miles away because they were persecuted in Europe ?”

    There is no excuse for the UK/US invading any country thousands of miles away who never threatened them and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people.

    Where do you get off thinking that I would have any other opinion?

    And how dare you think it’s any more heinous for the slaughtered to be Muslims than any other religious or racial group.

    And get this straight. Jews went to Israel because that is the country we originated from and have wanted to return to for 2,000 that’s two thousand, years. The land chosen was the land we were literally buying into for many years before the rise of National Socialism.

    And here’s an interesting little piece of trivia for you: Jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah, but not once in the Koran.

  201. Shamit — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:25 am  

    “chairwoman
    “There is absolutely no excuse for people of any faith or ethnicity to initiate explosions in the USA and UK because of the policies of a third country, be it Israel, Saudi Arabia or any other. End of (as they say).”

    So what excuse is there for the UK/US invading a invading Muslim countries thousands of miles away who never threatened it and slaughtering hundreds of thousands or for European Jews to dispossess a people of their country thousand of miles away because they were persecuted in Europe ?

    You seem full of those excuses

    Bombing the US and UK isnt ok – why is bombing Iraq or Palestine?”

    You said it yourself..not me…

    What does the last line imply? Yeah I do need to be educated about how bigoted one can be.

    Talking about Genocide in recent years — 1971 or the Iran iraq war or Saddam Hussein using chemical weapons on his own citizens the Kurds — All those on the receiving end were Muslims and unfortunately, those who committed those crimes were also Muslim.

    But that does not mean that all Muslims are genocidal or for that matter followers of any particular religion.

    Interestingly, in the aftermath of the Iraq war (where we the West especially the US screwed up after the war) it was the sectarian violence between Muslims that caused the most damage to life and property in Iraq.

    So let’s not even go there.
    ***********************************

    I support Israel’s right to exist and I believe they should have security too. I think Hamas and hezbollah are abominations and have no place in modern civilisation.

    At the same time, I reject Yahoo’s stance on the Palestinian State and I want those settlements to be stopped as well. I don’t think building those settlements help the Israeli nation and it does massive harm to Palestinians.

    Oh by the way, I did support the Iraq war because a genocidal dictator was running crazy and starting a war every few years not to mention kiiling his Muslim citizens with weapons of mass destruction. Well now you have the opening to have a go at me.. enjoy it.

  202. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:26 am  

    Platinum – That was a measured and well thought response with which I don’t altogether disagree :)

    Imran – Not only are we reading the same book, but today we’re on the same page :)

  203. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:31 am  

    Look just because people criticise Israel it doesn’t mean they are anti-semtic as Faisal is trying to imply and it is frankly disgraceful that people are muted at this suggestion and don’t say a word to him about this smear.

    Anyone who dares to disagree with Israel’s policies and Faisal is deemed an antisemitic Islamist and no-one bats an eyelid or says anything to anyone for these smears and lies. Which is an easy and shoddy way to stifle discussion on this issue. Why is that behavior tolerated when people are discussing Israel’s policies???

    His new blog is just another Muslim Bashing fest like Harry’s Place and could easily be named Harry’s Spit!

    When there was real anti-semitism here a while back by someone then I was one of the people that exposed their tired rhetoric.

    Yet when there is Muslim bashing led by certain people then there is no reciprocal defense of Muslims and its just accepted. How can you build community cohesion even in the UK when this is going on and people refuse to step in and criticse?

    We keep getting told that we should not worry about issues 3000 miles away and build relations here and yet when Israel is criticised then people are allowed to worry about criticism of issues 3000 miles away and if you dare to criticise then you are antisemtic and Islamists.

    Its the same poor approach that Blears and QF took which is farcical and ended in spectacular failure when QF were forced to up their credentials by having to address this issue not so long ago.

    If Israel is to be exempt from criticism then why isn’t Iran? Why a different standard requested for Muslims countries and others?

    Frankly I am getting fed up of the accusations here if you criticise Israel and the impunity with which Faisal and his supporters are able to hurl these.

    Debate even on Muslim issues needs to be had but you don’t see most Muslims accusing Jewish people here of being Islamophobes everytime they comment. So why do we have to accept the opposite?

  204. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:33 am  

    Chairwoman – “Imran – Not only are we reading the same book, but today we’re on the same page :)

    We always read the same book and mostly are on the same page except a few disagreements here and there!

  205. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:39 am  

    Imran – I believe munir/blah is an antisemite. But after his outburst about the slaughter of Muslims, I am starting to think that he’s an anti everything not Islamic.

  206. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:40 am  

    Anyone who dares to disagree with Israel’s policies and Faisal is deemed an antisemitic Islamist and no-one bats an eyelid or says anything to anyone for these smears and lies. Which is an easy and shoddy way to stifle discussion on this issue. Why is that behavior tolerated when people are discussing Israel’s policies???

    Time to climb down from the rampant misrepresentation Imran. The only one I have accused of gross anti-semitism is Munir, and as you can see from the comments on this thread, it’s not just the Jewish commenters who think so.

    Look, I think it’s very important to resist Islamophobia – *BY ORDINARY MUSLIMS*. But the right of defence of Islamophobia should be wrestled away from Islamists and bigots like Munir (case in point) or Jamaat and Ikhwan and their fronts, who use it to curtail criticism of their ideologies. They have a long and chequered history of backing repression and genocides of Muslims when it has suited them. And now they use the convenient cover of Islamophobia to afford them protection from their, so-called, liberal supporters

  207. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:46 am  

    Chairwoman – “And here’s an interesting little piece of trivia for you: Jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times in the Torah, but not once in the Koran.”

    Sorry but Jerusalem is mentioned in the Qur’an but not by the name Jerusalem. I am afraid this is just more twisting of the Qur’an by the right wing lobby in the USA to justify their own position.

    Jerusalem is mentioned in the following instances in no particular order:

    1. The original direction of prayer for Muslims

    2. The second mosque built

    3. The night journey of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)

    4. The place of worship built by the Prophet David (pbuh)

    5. The place Sheba came to see Prophet Soloman (pbuh)

    Also here is a bit of trivia for you:

    despite the rhetoric on the Muslim side by the likes of Arafat etc. the Qur’an specifically mentions and Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) specifically mentioned the journeys and trials of the Israelites and this includes Jerusalem. So within Islam there is an acknowledgment of the Jewish link to Jerusalem.

    Additional trivia:

    The Prophet’s companion and third caliph in Islam Umar bin Khattab when he took control of Jerusalem invited the Jews back to the city and in addition asked them about the place of worship built by Prophet Soloman (pbuh) and with his own hands and cloak cleared the area of dirt and horse dung.

    Last bit of trivia:

    Early Islamic coins minted in Jerusalem had Jewish symbols on them as well.

  208. platinum786 — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:50 am  

    Faisal bro, there is plenty of Islamaphobia to go around. Why must you fight the same one Munir says he’s fighting? :)

  209. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:50 am  

    Faisal – “Time to climb down from the rampant misrepresentation Imran. The only one I have accused of gross anti-semitism is Munir, and as you can see from the comments on this thread, it’s not just the Jewish commenters who think so.”

    With respect Brother your comment was general about the blog and not specific about an individual which is why I was annoyed and made the comment.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I am all for addressing the issues in the Muslim community including antisemitism but the approach needs to be correct and it needs action now.

  210. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 10:58 am  

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – I am all for addressing the issues in the Muslim community including antisemitism but the approach needs to be correct and it needs action now.

    Agreed one hundred percent. And therefore we must be brave enough to make the distinction between Islamophobia which affects the average muslim on the street and the ruse called “Islamophobia” which has been claimed by organisations to curtail debate and criticism of their fascist ideologies. And we must be brave enough to use our sense of discernment to identify these groups and the individuals who have created a clear strategy of abusing it.

  211. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:11 am  

    Faisal bro, there is plenty of Islamaphobia to go around. Why must you fight the same one Munir says he’s fighting

    The same reason why Pakistan has so lately realised that they are now fighting the same Muslims that the US were fighting. ;-)

  212. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:12 am  

    Faisal – “Time to climb down from the rampant misrepresentation Imran. The only one I have accused of gross anti-semitism is Munir, and as you can see from the comments on this thread, it’s not just the Jewish commenters who think so.”

    And you have been accused of anti-Muslim bias as well as distorting or totally misrepresenting your opponents arguments and being ill mannered by not just me but a number of others

  213. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:13 am  

    chairwoman
    “Imran – I believe munir/blah is an antisemite.”
    and I believe you are a Muslim hater

    “But after his outburst about the slaughter of Muslims, I am starting to think that he’s an anti everything not Islamic.”

    So being against Muslims being slaughetered is being against anything not Islamic ?

  214. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:14 am  

    Faisal
    “The same reason why Pakistan has so lately realised that they are now fighting the same Muslims that the US were fighting. ”

    you mean because you are recieving millions from the US governemnt?

  215. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:15 am  

    I don’t think anyone has been nearly as ill-mannered towards you as you deserve. You’ve had it good here sunshine.

  216. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:19 am  

    Faisal

    “Agreed one hundred percent. And therefore we must be brave enough to make the distinction between Islamophobia which affects the average muslim on the street”

    You make the disctinction but you never ADDRESS the Islamophobia suffered by the average Muslims on the street. You leave this to the Muslim groups you abhor- which is why they gain popularity (because they stand up for Muslims)- while you spend your time attacking the Muslim groups and leaving Islamophobes alone (or quoting them or in the case of QF actively joining with them)

    “and the ruse called “Islamophobia” which has been claimed by organisations to curtail debate and criticism of their fascist ideologies. And we must be brave enough to use our sense of discernment to identify these groups and the individuals who have created a clear strategy of abusing it.

  217. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:21 am  

    Faisal
    “I don’t think anyone has been nearly as ill-mannered towards you as you deserve. You’ve had it good here sunshine”

    ditto Mir Jafar

  218. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:29 am  

    We won’t be suffering bigots like you on the Spitton as gladly as the good people do here, however. ;-)

  219. Boyo — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:31 am  

    As I said earlier, if Israel did not exist, Minor/Blah would have to invent it.

    What i meant was – what would they do without this gift of grievance?

    The anti-semitism on this site, led by Islamists, is one of the reasons it is decreasing in quality. For example I am routinely identified as a “Zionist” simply for challenging the orthodoxy. For the record -

    - I’ve worked with Palestinians in the OT, unlike probably anyone else here
    - I don’t agree with Chairwomen’s implication the Jews had a “right” to a land they were turfed out of 2000 years before. I’m an Englishman – what should I do? Give my home up to the Welsh, who owned this land before the Anglo Saxons?
    - I am strongly opposed to settlements and agree with a two-state solution, which should be enforced on both sides.

    However, according to the Islamists here, the fact that I don’t agree to the destruction of Israel and draw attention to the disproprtionate hostility directed at it makes me a “Zionist”. Israeli terrorists murdered my countrymen to build their state, but I’ve gotten over it: they won their land through force, just as Islam was spread by force, just as England became Anglo Saxon by force. Should Egypt return to the Christians? Iran to the Zorarostrians?

    Israel is just a symbol of first Arab, then Islamist, failure to develop prosperous and content societies. Its succes is their failure, which is why they hate it. Why some sections of the left do too, is symbolic of their own moral and political bankruptcy.

  220. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:33 am  

    Munir, just an honest question, and I do not wish to flamebait you like that other one.

    For a Muslim like yourself, is is better to live in a secular country where people of different faiths live together in harmony and are free to choose their individual paths, or you prefer to live in a “benign” theocracy where state and your neighbours follow the same directives?

  221. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:34 am  

    Boyo
    “The anti-semitism on this site, led by Islamists, is one of the reasons it is decreasing in quality.”

    Boyo — on 24th June, 2009 at 6:50 am
    (commenting on Sunnys article)

    “Yeah, bloody Jews. Why can’t they be more like the Sri Lankans, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, the Zimbabweans. Hell, why can’t they be more like the Yanks and the Brits, who would never simply slaughter 100,000 Arabs on an ideological whim. Bloody Jews.”

    Think we can see where you are coming from vis a vis “anti-semitism”

  222. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:37 am  

    We won’t be suffering bigots like you on the Spitton as gladly as the good people do here, however

    You criticise this thread, while at the same time engaging in flamebaiting. Stay classy, Faisal.

  223. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:42 am  

    how is it flamebaiting, Ravi? Do explain.

    There are a number of good, tolerant regulars on this site who are disgusted by munir’s views and religious politics. However a sense of fair-play have so far kept them out of engaging with this troll with the level of honest abuse as he deserves.

    And in that list I include chairwoman, Amrit, Rumbold, Jai and Leon. All of whom I personally know, like and respect. They remain the backbone of this site.

  224. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:42 am  

    Ravi Naik

    “For a Muslim like yourself, is is better to live in a secular country where people of different faiths live together in harmony and are free to choose their individual paths,”

    I prefer to live in a state where there is harmony between everyone and minorities arent demonised and attacked as Muslims are in the UK. Where ever it is.

    Does being free to choose your own path include wearing the face-veil? Because you are calling for its ban

    “or you prefer to live in a “benign” theocracy where state and your neighbours follow the same directives?”

    A false and rather ignorant statemnt. Muslim socities have always had large non-Muslim populations who indeed had their own courts of laws and a great deal of autonomy. The notion of multi-culturalism and allowing different people to follow their own laws as much as possible is a Muslim one- its an anathema to the intolerant western tradition.

    You on the other hand want Muslim women to banned from following their religion by wearing niqab!!

    Id like to ask you as question- earlier you accused me of “anti-semitism” – can you clarify why you did this?

  225. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:47 am  

    Boyo
    “Israeli terrorists murdered my countrymen to build their state, but I’ve gotten over it: they won their land through force, just as Islam was spread by force, just as England became Anglo Saxon by force. Should Egypt return to the Christians? Iran to the Zorarostrians?”

    A false comparison. Egypt is still ruled and populated by Egyptians . Iran by Persians. Their religion is irrelevant (except to Muslim haters)

    Israel is a bunch of Europeans coming to the middle east and dispossessing the people of that land- that is to say the original people were expelled from that land. the Anglo saxons /Normans or Muslim armies didnt expel the people from their land. The Israelis did

  226. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 11:52 am  

    Boyo – there was no implication of ‘right’, it was an explanation as to why Jews wanted to be in that particular place, where they had been buying land for several decades prior to National Socialism.

    munir/blah seems to be of the opinion that Jews only went there after WWII in some sort of universal anti-Muslim plot.

  227. Amrit — on 25th June, 2009 at 12:03 pm  

    Thank you, all those who have stood up for me and/or had kind words to say. Much appreciated. :-D

    munir, your comment was hilarious. Do come back to me once you’ve stopped resorting to pretending to be someone else in order to shore up your ludicrously paranoid worldview. I’m not a Muslim hater – but you are a keyboard warrior, looking to troll and cause disruption everywhere you go. So frankly, coming from you, that comment is practically a compliment.

    I would hesitate before you make judgements about people you don’t know, like my parents, in future. Especially since you have a lot in common with the way they think at times.

  228. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 12:16 pm  

    chairowman
    “munir/blah seems to be of the opinion that Jews only went there after WWII in some sort of universal anti-Muslim plot.”

    No i am aware that Jews have been in Palestine a long time. But the impetus to establish a state there came from anti-semites and European Jews who didnt have roots there. In fact the early European colonialist zionists didnt take to the Palestinian Jews since they were far too friendly with their Arab countrymen

    Who said anything about anti-Muslim ? This is a national issue not a religious one (except to zionists!) Christian Palestinians have suffered as much as Muslim from European zionist ethnic cleansing

  229. Boyo — on 25th June, 2009 at 12:17 pm  

    “Their religion is irrelevant…” That’s funny. I thought Islamophobia = anti-Muslim racism.

  230. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 12:58 pm  

    Are modern day Palestinians descendants of the Jews living in that region thousands of years ago?

  231. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:04 pm  

    Boyo
    “Their religion is irrelevant…” That’s funny. I thought Islamophobia = anti-Muslim racism.”

    yes it does
    but the Palestinian issue is a national one not a religious one

  232. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:09 pm  

    The problems being aired out here are part of the wider issue of the Jewish/Muslim dilemma with lots of accusations and counter accusations and largely they stem because the community organisations have been so busy putting forth their view solely that there has been minimal effort at understanding the other point of view.

    This needs to change and quickly to make progress. It is changing thanks to various organisations but it should be a means of dialogue and not friction.

  233. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:10 pm  

    “Are modern day Palestinians descendants of the Jews living in that region thousands of years ago?”

    They are descendants of the ancient Canaanites who predated the Israelites

    Even early zionist idealogues recognised this

    “Ber Borochov “the fellahin are considered in this context as the descendants of the ancient Hebrew and Canaanite residents ‘together with a small admixture of Arab blood’”.[76] Ahad Ha’am also shared the belief that: “the Moslems [of Palestine] are the ancient residents of the land … who became Christians on the rise of Christianity and became Moslems on the arrival of Islam.”[76] David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi wrote in 1918 that Palestinian peasants and their mode of life were living historical testimonies to Israelite practices in the biblical period.[77]”

    In any case this is a pointless argument – should all land be returned to how it was 3000 years ago?

    The issues is the Palestinians have been expelled from their land and refugees have a right to return to their land under international law . this is enacted in every land- except for Palestinians

    Or dont you believe in International law?

    How many European Jews are descdnants of the Israelities?

  234. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:23 pm  

    Boyo – “Israel is just a symbol of first Arab, then Islamist, failure to develop prosperous and content societies. Its succes is their failure, which is why they hate it. Why some sections of the left do too, is symbolic of their own moral and political bankruptcy.”

    You started so well then we got this!

    Israel isn’t a success until it can come to a just peace with its neighbours, End of.

    Israel is also a success partly due to its own initiative and partly due to the massive support it has received from the West over the guilt of the Holocaust.

    It has been given access to scientific advances which its neighbours haven’t had access to.

    Don’t forget despite the hype even the UK and other European countries sent massive support to Israel at its creation and since. Something its neighbours were never equipped with.

    Israel has had an unfair advantage over its neighbours and has prospered.

    Israel is almost as morally and politically bankrupt as its neighbours because its largely in the same mess as its neighbours. Just because people have a vote doesn’t mean there isn’t corruption, religious extremism etc. in Israel. There is.

    Israel and the Arab World is largely morally and politically bankrupt because they all lack the courage to make peace and rely on politics of fear to manipulate a population that is sick and tired of their antics.

    Th Jewish Muslim problems are to a large degree self-inflicted and only we as Muslims and jews can sort out this mess by being honest, fair and just with each other.

  235. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:27 pm  

    Ravi – “Are modern day Palestinians descendants of the Jews living in that region thousands of years ago?”

    Some are and some are not.

  236. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:28 pm  

    All of us apart from converts. Yes our skin is lighter, but so will your descendants be if they continue to live in the colder parts of the world, but have you actually looked at us? The majority of us are quite obviously of Mediterranean origin, I’m not going to be as stupid as to say we’re 100 o/o pure, because as DNA testing so interestingly reveals, virtually nobody is.

  237. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 1:54 pm  

    In any case this is a pointless argument – should all land be returned to how it was 3000 years ago?

    The issues is the Palestinians have been expelled from their land and refugees have a right to return to their land under international law . this is enacted in every land- except for Palestinians

    Do you think this is an ambitious goal, Munir? What I think most Palestinians aspire is a developed Palestine state with jobs, education, decent healthcare, etc.

  238. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:02 pm  

    Ravi Naik
    “Do you think this is an ambitious goal, Munir? ”

    Its not ambitious but its just. Or are you sugegsting international law be put aside? If this is the case what law should the world operate by?

    “What I think most Palestinians aspire is a developed Palestine state with jobs, education, decent healthcare, etc.”

    Of course- but zionist theft of their land
    (see http://ideafix7.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/palestinian_land_loss_map.jpg) and illegal settlemenst in East Jeruslam and the West Bank
    makes a viable Palestinian state virtually impossible

    The only viable long term solution is two states based on pre-1967 borders. By agreeing to this the Palestinains have agreed to forfeit forever 78% of their homeland. Yet the zionists will never agree even to this.

  239. Faisal (The Spittoon) — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:07 pm  

    Some of you will be happy to know that bananabrain is now a member of the Spittoon group of bloggers and has published his first piece:

    http://www.spittoon.org/archives/1305

    :-D

  240. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:08 pm  

    Munir – Are you a Jew or a Palestinian?

    If not, kindly butt out.

    It’s not your fight. Go and find one of your own.

  241. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:09 pm  

    Its not ambitious but its just. Or are you sugegsting international law be put aside? If this is the case what law should the world operate by?

    International law is a joke, Munir. Or Bush and Cheney would be in a war tribunal right now for their role in Iraq.

    The only viable long term solution is two states based on pre-1967 borders.

    I totally agree, Munir. And you will find that everyone here agrees with that as well.

  242. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:14 pm  

    Chairwoman – “Munir – Are you a Jew or a Palestinian?

    If not, kindly butt out.

    It’s not your fight. Go and find one of your own.”

    This is nonsense. Why are Palestinians restricted and Jews no matter where they are able to participate in the debate? This is dictatorship as to who is and isn’t a party.

    Why are you involved then. If its just the Palestinians you want involved then why does Israel run to the USA for involvement?

    Why then according to your Plan are and in the interest of fairness Israeli Jews only allowed to participate?

  243. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:21 pm  

    Imran – I am just so fed-up with Munir and his antisemitic rants that I just wanted to take an unpleasant pop at him for a change.

    And I most certainly did not restrict Palestinians, what I wanted to do was point out to Munir that the only people with right of return to the complete Israel/Palestine area are Jews or Palestinians, and not armchair warriors who want to poke the fires of conflict from a few thousand miles away.

  244. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:21 pm  

    Sunny – still no edit facility.

  245. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:35 pm  

    Chairwoman – “Imran – I am just so fed-up with Munir and his antisemitic rants that I just wanted to take an unpleasant pop at him for a change.

    And I most certainly did not restrict Palestinians, what I wanted to do was point out to Munir that the only people with right of return to the complete Israel/Palestine area are Jews or Palestinians, and not armchair warriors who want to poke the fires of conflict from a few thousand miles away.”

    I’ll shut up them and stay out of the way – you should have issued a warning ;-)

  246. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 2:44 pm  

    chairwoma

    “Munir – Are you a Jew or a Palestinian?

    If not, kindly butt out.

    It’s not your fight. Go and find one of your own.”

    An astonishing comment that would entain the only people who could talk about a country are those who have direct relatives in it. So in other words you or any other British Jew cant talk about countries other than Israel or the UK!

    Does that mean non Jews shouldnt learn about the Holocaust because they arent Jews or German?

    Im not Jewish or Palestinian but I am Muslim. palestine is the home of the 3rd holy place in my religion Masjid al aqsa , Jerusalem the place Muslims believe the Prophet pbuh ascended to heaven to recieve the 5 daily prayers the most important act in our religion as well as the first direction of prayer and a place of many of our prophets. Palestinians are predominantly Muslim and hence my brothers and sisters. Leave aside that on a human level as many people without direct involvement have said the way they have been treated is a monumental injustice

    Using your logic Sunny or Hindu posters on here shouldnt post about I/P either!

  247. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:01 pm  

    Faisal – “Some of you will be happy to know that bananabrain is now a member of the Spittoon group of bloggers and has published his first piece:”

    A piece which has been answered time and again here. Just more repeats by someone who fails to grasp this aspect of Islam discussing with a bunch of extremists who equally fail to grasp this aspect of Islam.

    As the Salafi scholars have said that the state of the People of the Book at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and the companions was the same as it is today so they are People of the Book and no matter what the OBL, OBM’s of this world say that cannot change because of twisting of theology because it wasn’t the practise of the Prophet (pbuh) or the noble companions.

    The actions of the companions and early Muslims are clear on this so they are People of the Book and I fail to understand why he keeps bringing up this point when its clearly answered. A better question would be why the people he talks to won’t acknowledge this.

    The rights of Jews, Christians and other faiths are clear cut and anyone denying them this is a feckin idiot.

  248. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:08 pm  

    Munir – Fine, what you are though is a problem.

    There is no dialogue with you, there is no negotiation with you. You want a hundred per cent or nothing. Your attitude, and there are Jews with similar attitudes, are what encourages your Muslim brothers in Palestine to continue to live in what I am the first to agree are unequal conditions, in the hope that they will ‘push the Jews into the sea’ and have all the land from the river to the sea, rather than compromise, accept financial restitution, and go and live in comfort on the West Bank.

    I am glad you’re not my brother.

  249. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:13 pm  

    “There is no dialogue with you, there is no negotiation with you. You want a hundred per cent or nothing. Your attitude, and there are Jews with similar attitudes, are what encourages your Muslim brothers in Palestine to continue to live in what I am the first to agree are unequal conditions, in the hope that they will ‘push the Jews into the sea’ and have all the land from the river to the sea, rather than compromise, accept financial restitution, and go and live in comfort on the West Bank.”

    Er chairwoman perhaps you missed my post #238

    and why the West Bank? any Palestinian state must include occupied East Jerusalem

  250. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:15 pm  

    Chairwoman – “I am glad you’re not my brother.”

    Thats the point though if not brother then cousin. This situation is sheer madness and we all need to do something to resolve this.

    What I’ve seen here makes me sad and I will be talking to people I know who do outreach work in both communities to encourage some good projects. I hope you’ll talk to the various Jewish bodies.

    Seriously people we need to do something here in the UK.

  251. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:36 pm  

    A joke to lighten the mood

    An Israelis arrives at Heathrow Airport customs.
    The Customs officer asks him “Occupation sir?”
    “No thanks” replies the Israeli “just visiting”

  252. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

    “and why the West Bank? any Palestinian state must include occupied East Jerusalem”

    I’m happy with that with the caveat that Jews are still allowed unlimited access to the Western Wall.

    Imran – I will contact various people of good will (and you’d be surprised who one of them is (not a blogasphere personality or journalist before anybody guesses Ms Philips)) within the Jewish community, and see what can be done.

    Not making excuses, but being housebound these days makes it somewhat more difficult as I can’t engineer casual ‘bump intos’ which I have always found more conducive to getting dialogues started.

  253. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:40 pm  

    An Israelis arrives at Heathrow Airport customs.
    The Customs officer asks him “Occupation sir?”
    “No thanks” replies the Israeli “just visiting””

    Heh :)

  254. munir — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:43 pm  

    “I’m happy with that with the caveat that Jews are still allowed unlimited access to the Western Wall.”

    Of course. it is the holiest site in Judaism

    When the Muslims (who were the Prophets companions so the best of Muslims) first conqered Jerusalem one of the first things they did was allow the Jews who had been expelled back in and to practice their religion.

  255. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:51 pm  

    Munir – I think there’s hope for us yet :)

  256. The Common Humanist — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:55 pm  

    “The only viable long term solution is two states based on pre-1967 borders.

    I totally agree, Munir. And you will find that everyone here agrees with that as well”

    Me too.

    Not sure how many Israelis and Palestinians think that though………..

  257. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 3:56 pm  

    ““I’m happy with that with the caveat that Jews are still allowed unlimited access to the Western Wall.”

    Of course. it is the holiest site in Judaism”

    Stupid question time so please be patient with me.

    Is the Western Wall part of the original temple or was it added by Herod afterwards and thus what is its status in religious terms?

    Am just curious because Herod wasn’t considered by some to be part of the Jewish Hierarchy.

    I know the area is the holiest in Judaism and the Western Wall is the last link to the temple but is it part of the Temple itself.

    And before anyone chimes in I am not denying anyones right I just want to know for my own enlightenment.

  258. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 4:02 pm  

    Chairwoman – “Imran – I will contact various people of good will (and you’d be surprised who one of them is (not a blogasphere personality or journalist before anybody guesses Ms Philips)) within the Jewish community, and see what can be done.

    Not making excuses, but being housebound these days makes it somewhat more difficult as I can’t engineer casual ‘bump intos’ which I have always found more conducive to getting dialogues started.”

    Thats fine – you do what you can and I’ll do what I can. I’ll try and update tomorrow.

    Anyone else know people – you Muslims out there call the big mosques in London and ask them to do some community event to bring together people.

  259. chairwoman — on 25th June, 2009 at 4:02 pm  

    It was added by Herod, and I am guessing it’s the holiest site because it’s all that’s left standing.

    I think some scholars and archaeologists are of the opinion that the Holy of Holy is still under Temple Mount, but I think that’s probably wishful thinking.

  260. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 4:55 pm  

    Chairwoman – Thanks for that. The Holy of Holies was within the temple and was the absolute holiest place within the temple if I am not mistaken.

    Herod was an interesting character in history because he married into the Jewish Royal family but was never accepted widely.

    I think you are right it is holiest because its all that left standing after the roman destruction.

    Again from the Muslim point of view access isn’t a problem and if it was then this would have been determined by the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) and can’t be open to interpretation today. They allowed access, they allowed Jews back into Jerusalem and they created the Jewish areas to allow Jews to practise their faith. So no Muslim today has the right to over rule those that learn the faith from the Prophet (pbuh) directly.

    Again a short side note is that the statues in what is now Afghanistan were not destroyed by the early Muslims thus those that destroyed them went against the rights of other faiths to practice their religion freely.

    BTW As an aside those people who deny the Jewish link to Jerusalem contradict the Qur’an and the very teachings outlined above. Which is a brave step considering they are challenging the practice of the earliest Muslims.

  261. Denim Justice — on 25th June, 2009 at 5:37 pm  

    Wow, love seems to be breaking out everywhere. I feel hope for the future!

  262. Leon — on 25th June, 2009 at 6:03 pm  

    Only took us 260 odd posts…used to take about 400, we are getting better at this. :)

  263. Ravi Naik — on 25th June, 2009 at 6:24 pm  

    Well done Imran Khan, Chairwoman and Munir. :) I hope this goodwill continues in every I/P thread to come.

  264. Denim Justice — on 25th June, 2009 at 6:59 pm  

    They should get married!

  265. Imran Khan — on 25th June, 2009 at 7:04 pm  

    Steady on its only an early date yet ;-)

  266. persephone — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:01 pm  

    I have been avoiding the IP threads but am glad to see some positive steps here

  267. Denim Justice — on 25th June, 2009 at 8:36 pm  

    I don’t know how they’d fit the three of you into marriage – no religion is so progressive that women can have multiple husbands. Yet. Munir and Imran to fight over Chairwoman?

    A bit of light-hearted humour to wrap up yet another explosive I/P thread!

  268. Imran Khan — on 29th June, 2009 at 12:57 pm  

    Chairwoman – Sorry it took longer than expected but I managed to ask around and there does seem to be some effort towards dialogue with the Jewish Community but things are being slowed by nervousness with regards to I/P.

    Some of the mosques in London are trying to plan events to reach out but they need help from the Jewish Community itself.

    If you have any ideas how to progress this then I can push these forward.

    Both big mosques in London – Regents Park and East London I am told are interested in promoting dialogue and have plans for events to try and bring the communities together.

  269. Aaron — on 9th January, 2010 at 6:43 am  

    When has Israel ever started trouble? With anybody? Did they start it with the Nazi’s, No! The only one they ever got mad is God. So He made them walk around in that desert for forty years. I think they earned that land just for having to wait so long for it? Some day He will lift the vail from there eyes and they will see that Jesus and God are the same person. But until then I wait for that great day when I can join my jewish brothers and sisters in all of our land that He promist us. This will include Iran, Iraq and just about all of the Middle East. Oh and I am a Christain. I also believe that no man comes to the Father except through the Son. If you really study the Bible you can see where Son is more a title just like I am now a son of God, not meaning that I’m a God but just like the angles were called sons of God. It means friend. This also shows us that Jesus is our example to try and follow. God knows were human and that we pretty much screw up whatever we touch”this is only my opinion but the Bible does say that, “no one is rightous, not even one person.”

  270. Aaron — on 9th January, 2010 at 6:51 am  

    I just want to try and educate some people on one more small thing that you can all check out on the internet that Palestinians are really only Arabs. There is really no such thing as a Palestinian. Thank you and please check it out for yourselves.

  271. Aaron — on 9th January, 2010 at 7:18 am  

    I would just like to add that reading over the different posts I can see that Jews and Muslims are here and I just want to write all of you. Telling you most about my own life, how I had to forgive everyone I had ever been wronged by. I can truly tell you that I hate no one. I really love you all and as a Christain I feel this is what Jesus would want me to share with you. Please if I have offended anyone in the things I’ve wrote, it’s not what I’ve intended to do.
    You all are searching for something. Jesus said seek and you shall find. I believe that if you give God a chance He will show you who He is. Look in the Bible and how it all points to Jesus. Abraham is our link to each other. How was Abraham found to be rightous in Gods eyes? It was because he beleived God and it was counted to him as rightousness. I to believed God, that He came to earth as a man named Jesus and born of a virgin, dead for my sins(the sins I could never pay for in anyway),and then on the third day He rose from the dead, because death had no power on Him. Now He lives in me, in the place He said that He would live. Jesus said, one day people will not worship Me in temples or on mountains but they will worship Me in Spirit and in Truth. Please look in the Bible for yourselves and see the truth of our Lord Jesus.

  272. Don — on 9th January, 2010 at 10:58 am  

    Aaron.

    This may not be the ideal forum for you.

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