Where we go from here…
I don’t know quite how to begin this, so I will just come out and say it. What I’m proposing to do here is to elaborate on our mission statement and why this space exists. I do that not only for our readers but for the contributors too.
Pickled Politics was created to fill a void that Rohin and I felt and knew existed. It was a magazine, a platform, where we could rail against a system that needed re-examining. Other (media) spaces remain constrained either by vested interests or political correctness.
Let’s start from the beginning. We, as modern Britons, are fighting a metaphorical war on two fronts.
In one corner we have what you can call “the Asian community”. On a macro level it has become a closed system dominated by community leaders, so-called representatives, “race relations experts” and self-serving politicians. They are surrounded by a community of diverse people who remain largely unwilling to examine themselves critically because they are too busy being defensive.
On the other side there are the racists. But while racism has become a dirty word, even for the BNP, it has evolved into anti-immigration hysteria and Islamophobia. Like Hizb ut-Tahrir, the bigots have simply changed their words.
There is another way to look at this.
On one side stand all the bigots who hate, despise and look down on others based on their race, religion, caste, sexuality and nationality. And there are others who choose to reject that hatred. Whose side do you want to be on?
To be sure, sometimes the lines are blurred. This is why we are here - to make sense of those lines and then choose where we stand. It’s a learning process, but we have to draw that line, and not side with the bigots. This is why this space exists.
But it cannot cannot simply remain a pulpit from where we shout or laugh at others. It has to become more pro-active than that. And hence we arrive at Phase Two. I have increased the number of writers and added four ‘diaries’ firstly as a way to increase discussion amongst ourselves.
In a more organised and planned manner, we need to highlight and discuss what needs to be changed and we need to thrash out how to go down that path. We need to forge a new way of thinking and record it into articles, campaigns and essays that can be used to document this revolution. We need to be unafraid of criticism, be open to learning and not be plagued by a victim mentality that holds back meaningful self-criticism.
At the same time we need to highlight the enemies of this revolution: the self-serving community leaders, the bigots and the religious fanatics. We need to expose them, attack them, ridicule them and gather evidence against them.
We have to figure out how to deal with this bigotry and unashamedly champion a progressive path.
It all sounds very grand, you say. Too grand. Am I on drugs? Errr, no. I cannot say for certain where we end up with this, but I do know that we have to make a start. All we need is something coherent to say. The time for this revolution is long overdue.
Sunny - I have read your post and I will try an respond in a serious manner when I get the time, because I think I can sense from your tone the frustration you have. All your hard work deserves a considered response.
So I’ll not sign off as Justforfun on this occasion.
Sunny - I haven’t been on this site for long and also will think about this comment today and come back with a more thoughtful response. I did however, want to come back to you on the one para which really struck a chord:
At the same time we need to highlight the enemies of this revolution: the self-serving community leaders, the bigots and the religious fanatics. We need to expose them, attack them, ridicule them and gather evidence against them
Yes, I agree bigots et al need to be exposed. But how do you propose to attack and ridicule? Is this really the route you want to go down? These are powerful words…
Good stuff if a little vague. I think we (not being Asian I mean more broadly BME/those interested in social justice/progressive politics) should be also be about what we’re for not just what we’re against. We need to seek to provide alternatives.
We need to go from discussion/debate (although they remain an important component of our political tendency) to creating projects and dare I say an organisation(s?) to champion our cause. We need a plan and funding to add to that vision.
NEW RECIPE…
One of my favourite blogs, the Asian group site, Pickled Politics, is expanding its output. It’s hard to overtstate how useful PP’s daily conversation has become. There was a time when minority groups would never have opened up to outsiders….
That was excellent, Sunny. It’s good to have a clear statement of intent.
I’m sure you have the support of all those who love freedom and hate prejudice. Bigots beware.
Sunny,
To paraphrase something a certain someone once said 300 years ago, a single righteous man can have the courage to successfully challenge 125,000.
If your aspirations, motivations, and methods are sincere, correct, and well-meaning, may you achieve success in this struggle that you have chosen to undertake.
“Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh” doesn’t just refer to Sikhs, y’know, despite what some of the more conservative or misinformed members of the community may think
I wish you the very best of luck.
To be sure, sometimes the lines are blurred.
And, on an issue by issue basis, they move too, which is why issues surrounding race, religion and multiculturalism are so difficult to get a handle on.
You influenced by the Rang De Basanti trend !!
On a serious note, YOU guys have done an awesome job with PP. To do something, cause the world is doing…is one thing but to do it with passion and sincerity, gives it a total different meaning.
The new look…is completely, ‘Chakas’.
“At the same time we need to highlight the enemies of this revolution: the self-serving community leaders, the bigots and the religious fanatics. We need to expose them, attack them, ridicule them and gather evidence against them.”
Love it sunny
sunny, rohin,
i understand what you’re trying to do and supportive. it’s very similar to what i and a group of friends and colleagues have in mind for our new jewish thinktank (the taster site’s up now). i urge you to think of us as fellow travellers and i would like to think that somewhere down the road we will be in a position to work together. we would certainly welcome contributions from either of you (and some of the other people here, reformist muslim and jay singh leaping immediately to mind) as guest contributors to our mission to create a network of, i don’t know what you’d call it, british religious and ethnic minorities? who are prepared to work together and contribute to national and communal dialogue. consider this an invitation to get in touch; i do have a real name, after all!
you have my heartfelt best wishes.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Sunny,
What all of you have accomplished here is admirable, and I agree that there needs to be a proactive “Version 2.0″ that extends to constructive ways of extending the discussion to facilitate real-world change. However, please be careful of the transition to a “movement” - it’s fraught with difficulties.
For Muslims in the States, the Progressive Muslim Union started out with a forum for debate and discussion (on Muslim WakeUp.com) and there was real momentum that was quickly depleted with a reliance on labels (identifying as “progressives” vs. everyone else, and trying to define that term, prevented any consensus on what could merely be called common sense), personality clashes, and poorly thought-out singularly-focused campaigns (i.e., women-led prayer).
Keep it approachable with a variety of strategic campaigns based on facts and I think there is a lot of progress to be made yet. Good luck!
“Keep it approachable with a variety of strategic campaigns based on facts and I think there is a lot of progress to be made yet.”
Good point that.
This reminds me of the Stonecutters (Homer the Great) episode where Patrick Stewart (Sunny) reads from the sacred parchment and then we all sing a masonic song and eat ribs. I’d like PP to become masonic, we’ll have secret handshakes and feasts.
Anyway, back to reality. It doesn’t sound too grand Sunny - to be serious I think that we can achieve a lot. For me one of the main objectives is something I can already see happening, that I want PP to be all-inclusive. I am very encouraged when I see non-Asians commenting, I want others to read and understand the Asian community is not homogenous and quite ready to criticise itself.
Thanks for the encouragement everyone and well written Sunny. I, for one, will do my best to keep improving PP. Viva la revolucion.
that’s well said Sunny, and you’re right about needing to figure out how to tackle bigotry and prejudice. It’s extremely important if only to try and prevent that awful recurring thing called war, and inequalities.
in my mind - a large part of that involves understanding bigotry, predjudice and that means trying to understand people’s attitudes and beliefs, and how these are shaped by our social context and environment. the reasons why people insist on constructing boundaries between others they perceive to be different to them, whether that’s nationality, gender or sexuality, ethnicity, race, religion or football team or this left-or-right business, or any other form of social categorization and stratification. And then using these boundaries to justify oppression and undemocratic processes, and using social conformity to bolster ‘support’ and suppress criticism.
It’s very difficult and frustrating to do this - partly because most individuals find it difficult to ‘depersonalize’ any perceived critique of society and social relations or groups, and partly because people don’t really think very clearly about social processes they themeselves take part in. And I can see why that is - identity and belonging are such fraught emotional issues. And we do all need to be able to stand back a bit if we want to be ‘progressive’.
still i must say i personally find it’s also frustrating that whilst there is much talk about the ‘problems’ there is not much acknowledgement of needing to go back to basics and examine society and understand the ‘social’.
academically, ‘the failure of sociology’ is widely acknowledged - in the sense that policy makers and global leaders who are all het up about globalization and markets look to e.g. economics for input into their policies, and disdain any input from the academic study of institutions, people and social processes. Even within academia, the lack of relevance of scholarly discourse on such matters to the ‘real world’ is ’sort of’ accepted. I mean for goodness sakes, we don’t want theories of institutions to make their way into ‘real life’ – we don’t to hear anything about social psychology. Oh no, it wouldn’t help – not at all – to try and understand how individuals can think one thing, then behave differently in a group context. It might help to explain things like ‘mob violence’ and why its okay to think about dropping bombs on someone else – but not on our pretty egotistic little heads. Oh no. we don’t want to understand that sort of stuff. So irrelevant. oh yes. it’s too ‘complex’ - we want to ’simplify’ things, we hear.
As a result, for example if and when people talk about the problems of the IMF and the World Bank - its conveniently all focused on the talk of ‘free markets’ - not actually on questions like ..who the hell gave these global institutions so much power and legitimacy? and on questions such as ‘accountability’ and the need for ‘democratic’ institutions. The question how a few folks representing a few nation-states have come along and decided policies which affect everyone in the world – the global polity. Oh but…but.. and then at the same time, you hear the discourse of ‘democracy’ oh yes we want to ‘spread’ democracy like it’s nutella – but we don’t want anyone to think too h ard about what democracy actually means. Or maybe they’ll say well It’s easier to do all that when the focus isn’t on the social, on humans and the society we live in, interact with and contribute to. additionally, insisting on compartmentalizing aspects of society and human life ( e.g. economy - then ‘international relations’ and then people, psychology, and ‘culture’ etc. etc.) - which of course the academic marketplace has helped unwittingly - means that for anyone wanting to theorize on the reality of life and systems present in society - there are lots of nice barriers that have been erected.
Bottom line - we need to think clearly and have a good hard look around at the society and world we inhabit. Universal human rights – where is it? I can’t see it. it’s no good sticking our heads in the sand and ‘conforming’ to our social groups in the way they would like us to - ooh don’t ask too many questions or the fabric of society will fall apart. Or ‘ooh if ask questions you’re damaging our group and highlighting your lack of loyalty to your group’.. Fuck that. Asking questions is the only sensible thing to do - and incidentally, the cornerstone of science.
i do think there are some things to be very careful of and bear in mind..and zahed up above has a good point. i think avoiding rhetoric of ’superiority’ is significant i.e. seeming smug and complacent cos ‘we’re’ different - that stuff gets twisted so quickly and often becomes contentious, so needs treading carefully.
also i personally don’t think terms like ‘hating’ prejudice are much good - hate in itself is negative and that kind of discourse never really ‘works’. otherwise again, things get twisted too easily
Zahed makes some good points that should be heeded.
What I think Sunny is this.
As far as I am concerned the most pernicious thing we have is the government, local authorities and medias love in with the ‘community leaders’.
Apart from being a place to vent frustratons, for PP to take things to another level might need a transition stage in which more focus is given on certain key areas - and I think one area that is still misunderstood by the mainstream media is the machinations and AGENDAS of the conservative lobby groups - Sikh Federation, Hindu Forum, MAB etc
But how do you work to this without merely being reactive to events? Posting briefings and news articles after the horse has bolted?
You need more of an investigative journalist programme, commenting and seeking out the names and mendaciousness and two faced agendas of them - and that takes time and money.
For now, seek to build PP as a beacon - seek out actively journalists of Sikh, Hindu and Muslim background who have the same concerns as you - start breaking news.
BREAK NEWS - comment on the agendas and biographies and politics of those people ‘off the radar’ of mainstream media and break it down for non Asians what are the dynamics of a given situation with knowledge of what is happening.
Another example: collate for MP’s agendas and track records the next time they host Mr Community Leader for a photo opportunity. This can be as simple as e-mailing them, talking to the powerful and lobbying against the folly of allowing the conservatives time and attention.
Build a platform against the rotten crony, communalism and corruption in local Asian politics.
Be the point of reference for national media to get the lowdown on these issues - I remember reading the Times describe Southall Gurdwara as a Mosque last year. These nuances need to be understood.
Some people you can approach to link up with to write articles for you - and they deserve the platform:
Suresh Grover (dedicated anti communalist who has inside knowledge on Sikh and Hindu communalism in the UK)
Any number of active Muslim journailsts of UK Pakistani or Bangla background who share PP’s agenda.
And it’s time to get the ladies on board Sunny - Southall Black Sisters and others need a space to write.
Get your networking and sleazy self down to editors and journalists at national newspapers and tell them to start reading PP - tell them why this is important - why we need a balancing of voices and criticism of the entrenched self seeking communalist paradigm.
Also - a more rigorous focus on things that are strictly of concern to British Asians - that means if a bomb goes off in India or wherever, at least put a UK spin on things.
Also, link Asian concerns to broader community things - Asians have much to learn from, and in common with, African-Caribbean and Jewish experience in the UK - what is relevant to us from their lives and the issues they face can be incorporated into the remit with that focus.
As I say, before stepping up to the ring ready to punch I think you should set a time period say six months to really get in training, focus, concentrate, streamline, get toned. All the time keeping in mind what Zahed says about the dangers and ossification that can occur.
Being critical of the far right and Asian conservatism/communalism should not lead us into a contempt for the beliefs and concerns of Asians in general and not lead to gratuitous offending for the sake of it or toeing the line of, for want of a better phrase, white liberals or accepting their condescension. (That means challenging misconceptions of Asians all the time that occurs in the media even on a trivial basis)
You have built up a lot of goodwill Sunny - it is time to ask Clive Davis and other national journalists to call in their contacts to make sure that PP and it’s agenda is heard by opinion formers and those that matter.
Bringing together Asian journalists like FOR EXAMPLE Shiv Malik, Amardeep Bassey and others and even working to break stories and monitor things on the margins is what you should be aiming to do. Take six months and build it up slowly, get in training and then move it on. But being more than just a talking shop means pro-active journalism and lobbying - and that kind of ethos and activism takes time to formulate and get right.
“Other (media) spaces remain constrained either by vested interests or political correctness”
Having a media space to talk about this kind of stuff is great. Media - as we all know! - is crucial..
“Also, link Asian concerns to broader community things - Asians have much to learn from, and in common with, African-Caribbean and Jewish experience in the UK - what is relevant to us from their lives and the issues they face can be incorporated into the remit with that focus.”
Agreed (but don’t forget us mixed race folk! We’re a growing demographic and bridge communities).
“but don’t forget us mixed race folk!”
Amen brother!
Without getting too precious, I think its true to say that you’ve done an unbelievable thing Sunny. You’ve created a valid and respected blog which has done something which at first I didn’t think possible - you’ve hoisted a progressive banner that speaks on behalf of people of Asian backgrounds and surveys communal issues without falling into the predictable communalist traps.
Appearing shortly after the 7/7 bombings, you couldn’t have timed it better to tackle and demystify the issues that could have embittered us to each other. You’ve shown that the only way to diffuse ill feeling and combat the misprepresentation that Asians allow from certain groups, organisations and groupusules from within is to is to fearlessly tackle the thorniest, and sometimes most painful issues, its got to be said, head on.
On a personal note I would have gone crazy without some of them stress-relieving discussions we’ve had on here.
Here’s to the future and PickledPolitics 2.0
well said leon. as far as im concerned everyone is really ‘mixed race’ anyway. the idea of ‘biologically and homegeneous racial purity’ is complete myth propped up by groups seeking legitimacy!
Can I add one thing that isn’t really mission statement, but a point I want to make as it’s sometimes misunderstood.
We occasionally post stories from the subcontinent and elsewhere, but that isn’t our main focus - we don’t intend to cover every piece of South Asian news. Our number one priority is Britain, whether brown-related or not.
Hello everyone,
I have to say I’m humbled to receive so many constructive comments in reply. This isn’t just about my vision because it gets nowhere unless others, such as yourself, share that vision and participate in building the sort of society we want to see. My aim here is to help move it along and provide the tools to take it forward.
Leon:
should be also be about what we’re for not just what we’re against. We need to seek to provide alternatives.
exactly. I don’t want to just make a platform for ranting and raving. At every step of the way we need to try and seek out alternatives and make it clear what we strive for. That is what much of the discussion is also about.
Thanks Steve, Clive, Jai, Justforfun, Rakhee, Sakshi, Robert and Sunray.
bananabrain: i urge you to think of us as fellow travellers and i would like to think that somewhere down the road we will be in a position to work together.
Totally. This cannot be a project that works alone. Those of us who stand against bigotry and communalism need to reach out to each other and work together. This is a movement, not a one-man project.
Zahed, you’re very right, there is a danger that we get carried away by our own sense of superiority and anger towards others. To that extent I’m always happy for people to shoot me down when I get carried away, and which is why such an open forum exists where we even welcome
Sonia
And then using these boundaries to justify oppression and undemocratic processes, and using social conformity to bolster ‘support’ and suppress criticism. Totally agreed. This is what we want to reject.
And I can see why that is - identity and belonging are such fraught emotional issues. And we do all need to be able to stand back a bit if we want to be ‘progressive’.
True, we all have multiple identities. But we should be able to state that those identities get stronger and more worthwhile if they are able to withstand and deal with criticism. I reject the old defensive ways.
Universal human rights – where is it? I can’t see it.: As I said above, the lines are sometimes blurred as to what is universal and what is personal etc. This is why we are here too - to make sense of where that line lies. You are right to question the global hegemony and we should all continue to do that.
also i personally don’t think terms like ‘hating’ prejudice are much good
In which case let’s say that we want to avoid being prejudiced in a way that puts us on the same side as bigots.
Jay:
Lots of good points there to digest. Yes, you’re right in that I need to extend the content from other people too, try and make this alliance as broad as possible.
I will let it slip at this stage to everyone that I’m working on something bigger towards this goal. That will be all about making an impact and connecting with lots of others on a similar footing. In the meantime I want to make sure that we all geared up towards our goal and think more about how we can have a more constructive discussion.
The great think about Rohin is that most of the time he says what I’m thinking anyway. So yeah, posting on events in South Asia and the world are done merely to keep an eye on them in a way that any newspaper would do. But we are primarily concerned with ‘Home News’.
and thanks Sid.
well, sunny - keep an eye on what we do over at our website and tell us if you find any of the articles interesting! i can be contacted via the general address.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Good luck with your project bananabrain!
thank you jay - it is a particular bugbear of mine that there isn’t much in the way of jewish-sikh dialogue. i think we have a lot to discuss.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Bananabrain,
There is a Sikh gentleman called Mohinder Singh (more commonly referred to as “Bhai Sahib”) who is extensively involved in inter-faith dialogue. I believe he recently organised (or is in the process of organising) a formal inter-faith conference up in Glasgow with several high-profile religious figures from around the world, including a Jewish leader.
He does a lot of international charity work too, including Rwanda etc. He’s quite well-known — when the Queen went to India a couple of years ago, he was the person who escorted her around the Golden Temple complex in Amritsar.
I believe he used to be the main “priest” (for want of a better word — Sikhs don’t have formal priests in the conventional sense) at the large gurdwara/Sikh temple in Birmingham (possibly he still is). Nice guy by all accounts, and from what I hear he’s “the real thing”.
Perhaps he’s someone you may wish to contact if you genuinely want to have some further Jewish-Sikh dialogue.
Sunny — You may wish to involve him in your “phase 2″ mission too, at your discretion of course (I don’t know if you want to involve religious figures).
Hard to believe it’s only nine months (a gestation) since PP made its debut. That it has grown into something of real significance and vitality is not only a tribute the the quality of the writing (usually) and the moderation, but also shows how many people felt the need for somewhere like this.
And now phase two. ‘On one side stand all the bigots who hate, despise and look down on others based on their race, religion, caste, sexuality and nationality. And there are others who choose to reject that hatred. Whose side do you want to be on?’ is too simple to be called a ‘manifesto’, but that simplicity could well be its greatest strength.
I have seen the future, and it’s pickled.
“For a mixity based in respect”: that’s Ni Putes Ni Soumises slogan, but I think it applies to what you’re trying to do. Kudos on the relaunch.
Sunny,
“At the same time we need to highlight the enemies of this revolution: the self-serving community leaders, the bigots and the religious fanatics. We need to expose them, attack them, ridicule them and gather evidence against them.”
I wonder if I am among this group.
One other thing Sunny - on a technical note, please use a darker less bright shade for the background on this new look - something a bit warmer and relaxed.
Self examination, as distinct from self regard, will answer that. Do you ‘look down on others based on their race, religion, caste, sexuality and nationality’?
I like the web site however I did not like the above article. It sounded two dimensional and slightly “childish”. Its gives the wrong impression that the native community is racist and the asian community, by some sort of definition, cannot be racist but has other chips on its shoulders.
eg, you said:
“On the other side there are the racists. But while racism has become a dirty word, even for the BNP, it has evolved into anti-immigration hysteria and Islamophobia. Like Hizb ut-Tahrir, the bigots have simply changed their words.
”
Obviously racism knows no sides, many asian people are racists too.
There is nothing politically wrong with wanting more or less immigration or the same level of immigration. To lump immigration in with racism taints ordinary peoples views as racist, that is not a progressive thing to do. If someone wants zero people immigrating into the UK that would be silly but it is also an acceptable view to hold. Why should that person be brushed as a racist if they want to hold that view, a truely progressive person would counter that person without any offensive labelling.
Again, it is also acceptable to be anti specific religion or all religions. Remember “Dave Allan at large”? You could do an hour a week of ‘anti-’ Catholic jokes and no one would call it Catholic-ophobia. Its not Islamophobia. We’re not scared of religion in a general sense; what we are scared of are people who take religion very seriously and are not of our own religion. It took about 1000 years of wish washy christianity (eg read Chaucers Canterbury Tales to get a true picture of the 1300s) to see that Islam and other asian religions are alien and scary to wishy washy Christians. It is a serious problem and should not be labelled racist. Can Wishy Washy Christians/athiest cope with a muslim population that takes its religion seriously and wants to send more immigrants here. Yes it might sound racist to you, but it is a valid question and is not in anyway racist. The BNP are getting votes because it addresses this question because “you” and others like you have made ordinary parties scared to discuss these issues without sounding like racists. Can wishy washy locals cope?
John
Good luck on the ‘movement’ to Sunny and all the UK picklers.
>>please use a darker less bright shade for the background on this new look - something a bit warmer and relaxed.
May I second that! The glare of the background and the font size have really reduced the ‘readability’ of PP.
I know we have had far too much poetry on here recently, but for some reason this post reminded me of this. Sorry if it’s overlong;
Leonard Cohen Villanelle for Our Time Lyrics
Words by Frank Scott (1899-1985)
Music by Leonard Cohen
From bitter searching of the heart,
Quickened with passion and with pain
We rise to play a greater part.
This is the faith from which we start:
Men shall know commonwealth again
From bitter searching of the heart.
We loved the easy and the smart,
But now, with keener hand and brain,
We rise to play a greater part.
The lesser loyalties depart,
And neither race nor creed remain
From bitter searching of the heart.
Not steering by the venal chart
That tricked the mass for private gain,
We rise to play a greater part.
Reshaping narrow law and art
Whose symbols are the millions slain,
From bitter searching of the heart
We rise to play a greater part.
Jon Browne - read what Sunny said again; he specifically doesn’t put white people in one corner and non-white people in the other.
Sunny - I support what you are doing, although I fear I may only be able to offer the odd flippant comment here and there.
“May I second that! The glare of the background and the font size have really reduced the ‘readability’ of PP.”
Really? I’m a big proponent of the black-on-white. It’s been around for thousands of years because it works! How do you mean Jay and mirax? What kind of background colour? I genuinely prefer the clarity black text on a white bkgd gives you, hence why the papers do it.
Hmmm, John that was not the impression I wanted to give. There is racism and bigotry everywhere, regardless of race (and we know racism is rife within Asian communities).
The only two sides are people who oppose this racism and bigotry, and those who embrace it.
On immigration - I don’t see opposing immigration as necessarily racist, but the undertones and the intention behind much of the debate clearly is. The BNP does nothing other than heighten that hysteria and play on the racism. For example their lie that Africans were being imported in and given preferential housing etc in Essex.
A serious debate on immigration looks at social and economic factors, yet the debate has been hijacked by Migration-Watch and the BNP, while Labour sit around idly and do nothing. Well, literally nothing as was the case the Charles Clarke.
This is a debate I want to have on PP too. You also make a point about letting in Muslims who take their religion very seriously and may have completely different values to what the vast majority of Britons subscribe to.
Fine, I accept that. And I believe there should be legal standards to enforce that Muslims, or any ethnic minorities, should not be able to circumvent. But discrimination based on religion or race - would you not call that racist?
Sunny,
It seems such a shame to me that the USA has this thing about Mexican immigrants. In a way I feel we would be better off taking these ‘failed’ US immigrants rather than taking people who hold very different religious beliefs to our own. Indeed, if we had more South Americans perhaps we would win the World Cup…. Mates have told me that in parts of India where the Portugese went (Goa?) they sometimes get 30K people in the stadiums to watch socder. Why can’t we get more Goa-an-ese people?
If there are queues of people waiting to get into the UK why can’t we pick-and-choose a bit more? What is wrong with that? Why do we have to take those who come as “asylum seekers” instead of people who queue? Its very British to Queue….so we should take the Queue-ers and kick the others out (I know that is hard, but lets face it, 90% of the time, the real people in pain are not the asylum seekers but rather the ones that don’t manage to get here at all).
John
“The only two sides are people who oppose this racism and bigotry, and those who embrace it.”
However, the biggest group is the ones that don’t care about either.
To be sure, sometimes the lines are blurred. This is why we are here - to make sense of those lines and then choose where we stand. It’s a learning process, but we have to draw that line, and not side with the bigots. This is why this space exists.
Stirring stuff. I like it.
But be careful with drawing lines — it’s a delicate business. I think we all know where the extremes are but lets not get too obsessive about judging what’s PC and not PC. We also have to recognise that we live in a very large space — that we are a broad church (Gudwara, mosque, synagogue, pub, whatever).
But that aside, count me in (as far as a non-Asian can be counted in on what is primarily a British Asian blog). If I had a wish it would be that your efforts evolved into something more tangible that represented not just the views of progressive British Asians but which also reflected opinion among all progressive second and third generation immigrants and showed how we are helping to put the Great back into Great Britain.
I guess the rhetorical flashes are catching!
John Browne,
=>”to see that Islam and other asian religions are alien and scary to wishy washy Christians.”
Apologies for being pedantic but Islam is not an “Asian” religion (even though it has large numbers of adherents who are of Asian ethnicity) — it’s Middle-Eastern in origin, just like Christianity and Judaism. It has far closer historical and theological links to the second two than “Asian” faiths that really do originate in the Indian subcontinent, which in the case of the British Indian population usually means Hinduism, Sikhism, and Jainism (some Buddhists too, in the case of Sri Lankan Sinhalese people here).
I do understand the point you’re trying to make but for the sake of accuracy I thought I should clarify this matter, especially as this is a public blog and we don’t want to add to people’s erroneous preconceptions.
Christianity is not regarded as being a Middle Easten religion in spite of having its roots there.
One of the simplest acts of reform that Muslims can accomplish today is by decoupling the idea that Islam, in the 21st Century, is the intellectual property of the Arabian Peninsula.
Given that over the last 1000 years, almost all the reformation that has occurred in the world of Islam has been from Mulsims in Spain, Central Europe, Central Asia, Iran, India etc. And if Fareena Alam is to be believed, Malaysia is set to steal the “ashes” o Islam from Arabia and plant it firmly and squarely in South East Asia, thereby getting rid of its puritanical and obscurantist tendencies.
I’d like to see that.
If I had a wish it would be that your efforts evolved into something more tangible that represented not just the views of progressive British Asians but which also reflected opinion among all progressive second and third generation immigrants and showed how we are helping to put the Great back into Great Britain.
Agreed El Cid. And lets not forget first generation Fresh Off The Boat people like myself!
>>And if Fareena Alam is to be believed, Malaysia is set to steal the “ashes” o Islam from Arabia and plant it firmly and squarely in South East Asia, thereby getting rid of its puritanical and obscurantist tendencies.
This gave me one of the biggest laughs I’ve ever had on PP. Do people like Alam know what they are talking about?
>>One of the simplest acts of reform that Muslims can accomplish today is by decoupling the idea that Islam, in the 21st Century, is the intellectual property of the Arabian Peninsula.
This is impossible -unless you decouple Islam from the arabic language which is forbidden.
I’m not talking about a linguistic decoupling, I wouldn’t even want that to happen. Arabic is the lingua sacra of Islam in the same way as Latin was for Christianity, until Vatican 2 came along that is. My idea of decoupling would be the sentimental bias that lends South Asian people to regard the Arabia as “hallowed”. Its the basis of a spiritual apartheid.
Sorry, didn’t really want to divert the thrust of this thread to boring frikkin’ religion again!
>>Really? I’m a big proponent of the black-on-white.
well generally anything with high contrast - black on white or white on black is best for readability.
But I think the problem here is that the reduced font size and line and letter spacing (which is really important) sort of highlights the empty spaces too much. I mentioned glare - luminosity also is an important factor for onscreen reading. If you were to choose another whitish (antique white?) or pastel background, it may help. All my gripes have to do with readability, not the aesthetics of the new look PP. I just noticed that I was squinting way too much at PP - and I am not that old!
john browne up there - a lot of Americans don’t like hispanics for the precise reason you mention ‘religious beliefs very different to our own’.. most Hispanics tend to be Catholic, and in the eyes of many Protestants - is a ‘very different’ religion. So there you go. what’s considered ‘different’ or ’similar’ is obviously relative and depends on the social context. you don’t need me to point out the historical context which obviously colours these kinds of ideas. the very fact that people consider other people’s beliefs as somehow ‘different’ is often due to not understanding those people, or certainly coloured by ’suspicion’.
would you not agree. obviously if people get past those issues and still decide - right this is something i want to speak out against - fine. but that’s precisely the point isn’t it - combatting ‘prejudice’ means trying to address the presumptions people have about each other. once you get past that - you can have meaningful debate.
John Browne,
Shoddy logic i must say. In case you havent noticed most of us here are British Asians. If ferverishly supporting western sports is the gauge for immigration eligibility then i must say 1.5 billion cricket crazy south asians derserve a free ticket to western countries in the British Commonwealth! This logic may go well with people at
RedneckFree republic or LGF but not here. Secondly most Goans arent even christians and football (not your american concoction) is even a bigger thing in Bengal. Lastly we have many Goans working here in Indian restaurents here in UK.“Apologies for being pedantic but Islam is not an “Asian” religion”
Sorry, I can’t agree with this. Islam is not a monolithic bloc, and while it’s roots may be in the Middle East, it now has a global identity. There are FAR more Muslims living in Asia than in the Arab world. Turkish, Central Asian, Persian, South Asian and South East Asian Islam all have their own cultural variances. Remember that Islam is the second largest religion of India, and the third largest religion of British Indians (higher than Bhuddists or Jainists). Islam has been part of the subcontinent since the 8th century (my own family is proof of this), much longer than, for instance, Sikhism (and Islam had only been around for about 100 years before then) . Also, given that, from an agnostic viewpoint, Sikhism appears to be drawn in part from Islam (in the same way that Islam is drawn from Christianity/Judaism), one could argue that Sikhism has Middle Eastern roots in some ways (which would also be borne out by the stories of the Gurus visiting Iraq).
Raz, I very much agree that Islam is very much a part of Asia. However it very clearly belongs to the semitic family of religions and is very distinct from the Indic religions- Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism.I am not sure where Sikhism fits in but I suspect that in terms of core philosophy and practice, it may be more in the indic camp.
“It took about 1000 years of wish washy christianity … to see that Islam and other asian religions are alien and scary ”
Christianity was just as Asian as islam in its origins. And mediaeval christianity was far from wishy-washy. Read Gibbon on the early christians. Read about the crusades- not just the middle Eastern crusades but the Lithuanian and Cathar crusades. When christians had the power to decide what was tolerable they were a lot more intolerant than muslims ever were.
Vikrant,
“Secondly most Goans arent even christians and football (not your american concoction) is even a bigger thing in Bengal. Lastly we have many Goans working here in Indian restaurents here in UK.”
A lot of Goans are Catholics (like myself) and are fans of football. Like other Indians, there are Goans who work in restaurants, those who work in IT (like myself) and those who manage to get into politics, like Keith Vaz - who got to be UK minister for Europe.
(Incidentally, Portugal’s current interior minister is from Goa. Not that you would care.
Mirax,
Undoubtedly Islam is technically part of the semetic religions. As Sid stated before, Christianity is now regarded as a Western/European religion despite its origins in the Middle East. I feel the same way about Islam in Asia, which is defintely distinct from Arab Islam (which itself is not homogenous). It’s worth noting that the lines have been blurred somewhat by recent Wahabist attempts to spread their hardline version from Saudia Arabia to many other parts of the Islamic world, especially in Asia, as my beloved Pakistan has found out to its cost.
“When christians had the power to decide what was tolerable they were a lot more intolerant than muslims ever were.”
Absolutely. The facts about the Crusades show pretty much that. Between Saladin and Richard the Lionheart, who was the butcher and who was humane? Not to mention the Inquisition where the Church killed and tortured people in the most cruel way imaginable.
What we see right now is not a clash of religions or civilizations, but of two diferent eras: the secular XXI century against the religious fundamentalism of the XIV century. And to be honest, it would be best if the government started treating these religious radicals and fundamentalists in the same way they do with organizations such as C18 or IRA. The line between these two eras is very easy to draw.
Raz,
Yes I know what you mean about present-day Islam’s Asian slant — especially due to the larger numbers, compared to the Middle East — but my earlier point was just clarifying that it is not originally (or solely) an “Asian” religion in the sense of originating in the Indian subcontinent. The “centre of power” in Islam is also not located there. I’m sure that John did not mean his statements in the way they sounded, but someone ignorant of the facts might misinterpret his comments if they happened to come across PP.
Regarding Sikhism, well technically the scope of the teachings and the requisite “viewpoint” is global and, since the faith does not believe in formal religious boundaries in the orthodox sense, the “overlap” of its tenets is with every other faith in existence (at least those which have some similar concepts) even though the actual terminology used is similar to some aspects of Islam and Hinduism. However, one could say that the closest links are to Sufism and Bhakti Hinduism, although there are also various teachings within Sikhism which do not correlate to either of these (or to “orthodox” interpretations of Islam and Hinduism respectively).
Mirax,
=>”I am not sure where Sikhism fits in but I suspect that in terms of core philosophy and practice, it may be more in the indic camp.”
Yes you’re right — generally it’s closer to the “Indic camp” than to the Abrahamic faiths, although is some aspects there are also some differences as mentioned in my post to Rav.
I studied Islam and didnt find anything original in it. All of Islam is contained in Judaism and Christianity, even the prophets, all of the basic ideas, fasting, sabbath, pilgramage. Islam is basically an off shoot of Judaism. Maybe that is why Muslims hate Jews so much, it’s an inferiority complex or a ‘kill-the-father’ complex.
>> It’s worth noting that the lines have been blurred somewhat by recent Wahabist attempts to spread their hardline version from Saudia Arabia to many other parts of the Islamic world, especially in Asia, as my beloved Pakistan has found out to its cost.
And my corner of the world - south east asia- has changed very much for the worse as a result of the islamist onslaught of the last two decades. It will be especially hard to recover all that has been recently and contemptuously discarded as ‘unislamic’ -traditional artforms, customs,crafts, clothes…even aspects of the Malay language.
“It will be especially hard to recover all that has been recently and contemptuously discarded as ‘unislamic’ -traditional artforms, customs,crafts, clothes…even aspects of the Malay language”
mirax, you’re so right. One of the most despicable and pernicuous aspects of Islamic fundamentalism is its obsession with destroying any form of supposedly ‘unislamic innovations’. Witness historical buildings being demolished in Saudi Arabia, the attempted supression of Asian customs in Pakistan (e.g. music, weddings, festivals such as Basant), the destruction of thousand year old Buddha statues in Afghanistan, and your own account of this folly. Sickening
Re: My post #59, “as mentioned in my post to Rav.”
Sorry, typo, that should say “RaZ”
Ulrich - fasting, sabbath, pilgrimage, flood stories, creation stories, and most of the Old and New Testament are all borrowings from older and in some cases forgotten religions. There is nothing original in any religion, they are all hopelessly derivative. Apart from Scientology. What a moneyspinner, eh? Wish I’d thought of it.
Jai, you’re such a pedant..;-)
>>Witness historical buildings being demolished in Saudi Arabia.
Yes, that one in particular is criminal in its arrogance and pig-ignorance. The muslim street should have been out lynching saudis for that! But I doubt many muslims even know about it.
What happened to the thread?
the reference to ‘intellectual property’ is a good one. we can talk about intellectual ‘traditions’ - i.e. the specific historicity. fact is that everyone seems to want to extend the intellectual property concept to everything and it just makes me want to laugh.
why should any one group have intellectual property over anything - its just ridiculous.
hello? thread!? are you still there?
Sycophants appeasing sycophants that is my analogy of “Pickled Politics”…..Sad little Asians awaiting the inevitable deportation for foul mouthing the people and country who gave them refuge! You ungrateful ingrates should be………?
Hi,
There were some posts on some of my points.
1. Catholic USA. There are many misconceptions about the USA and one of them is that it is a protestant country when in fact the largest religion by a huge margin is the Catholic religion. I think its goes like this 40% catholic, 20% Anglican and 20% Baptist type stuff and the rest all over the place.
2. Although I am mainly native British one of my great grandparents was a gypsy (I think they originated in asia) and thus I sometimes get mistaken for being Jewish. This is my mothers book about her life:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0750939966/qid=1147456725/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/026-5718910-9830831
3. Christianity mainly developed within Greek Culture. I stick by my “wishy washy” label, it was not only Chaucer in England it was also, on a much bigger scale, Dante’s Inferno - he put the pope in there! The proof? When Henry 8th said its was more or less “cods wallop” the Country didn’t get into too much of a tiss about it.
4. The “Football Test”. I think this is a bit of a valid point. The host nation should try - half heartedly at least, to try and pick immigrants who will get on best here. Its not like we don’t have a big choice. There are loads of people who want to come here. Perhaps immigrants should be asked some cultural questions before they can call themselves British as they have to in Germany. Can you name the 1966 England Football team perhaps.
John
I liked everything you wrote there Sunny. As a non Asian I’ve found this site to be a very interesting window into another *rational* *reasoned* point of view.
Good luck in phase 2, I’ll be watching
‘ungrateful ingrates ‘
That’s the worst kind.
Aren’t ingrates already ungrateful? Simply by being ingrates?
Those ingrateful ungrates are the ones you really need to look out for.
What about cheese graters? Will they get deported as well along with all us ungrateful Asian ingrates with in-growing toe nails?
Just an observation, but have been quietly reading this thread and although there has been fascinating debate, we’ve gone from:
All we need is something coherent to say. The time for this revolution is long overdue
to
ungrateful ingrates.
How about re-engaging a little inspiration?
Sunny’s comment about starting a revolution has made me think about how people have really gone about changing things.
Starter for ten. I was given a gift today called ‘The ten most photographed people in the world’. It includes JFK, Hitler, Gandhi and Mohammed Ali. All had very different ways of fighting for their cause.
I for one am a fan of Gandhi and Ali, different though they may be. Ali for the simple lesson he taught that it doesn’t matter who you’re up against, you can win. Gandhi for his sheer humility and patience in fighting for his cause.
Any views?
I’d go for Elvis.
Unlike Mohammed, he actually joined up!
And South Korea did benefit.
He’s probably changed the world more than any other single individual.
Elvis changed the world more than any other single individual? Ummm…yeah.
He certainly changed the burger bars of Las Vegas more than any other individual.
If you don’t like Elvis then its got to be Henry Ford.
Top asian politican must be Gorbachev (End of Cold War, bringing democracy to Russia and I guess, to some extent, responsible for freeing Eastern Europe - not bad for one man).
John
Gorbachev? Asian?
If you get an atlas out most of Russia is in Asia.
Centainly its power base - Moscow is asian. St Petersburg is European. Just becaue many of them are white does not make them European.
John
Right - I see. Russia is an Asian country. And Elvis is the most influential man that ever lived. OK…..
Sunny - Oh bugger just when I thought procrastination had its uses — Everything I would want to say has been said , you go and post the next thread
Anyway to keep it short - I would like to add my thumb print to the list of people congratulating you and your collegues on a great forum. I like the idea that nothing is sacred and that Pickeled Polit Bureau members are not victims.
I think a new Front(s) is being opened up on the metaphorical war on two fronts. The bulk of the so called “ Asian community”, by staying in the stagnent trenches, have allowed their community Generals the luxury of sitting in their chatauxs, drinking fine while pushing cardboard pieces around a map. Well I hope people act as individuals and not as “communities” — perhaps get out the trench to have a game of football, not just for the occasional carnival and festival but lets overtime make it everyday. That will give the community generals something to think about :-).
A question to ask - are we here for the long term? If so then what is the point in maintaining ghettos because in the 21st centrury they can never last more than 2 generations at the most. Better to as you say choose what is really worth keeping and ditch sentimental baggage (please no more bangra - its too much like morris dancing :-)- You mark my words in 30 years you’ll all be ashamed when the family videos are replayed :-)) , reform the outrageous stuff like ‘familial butchery’ by demanding a few prison keys are thrown away - (I just can’t stand the euphamism of ‘honour’ when applied tho these murders)
Justforfun
*Supporter*
You’re doing good things, sunny.
As a newcomer to PP I’m in no position to pass judgement. I was amazed to learn that PP kicked off only nine months ago – it feels much more mature. Real achievement by Sunny, Rohin and the rest. I like what I’ve seen of your plans so far for phase 2. Ambitious definitely, and there’s a risk of overreach – but it’s got to be worth a try.
I agree with most of what others have already said about where PP goes from here – particularly Jay Singh’s points about using PP to promote and influence the wider media agenda. Some very late and not very original thoughts of my own:
- We’ve got to keep questioning and challenging received wisdom and established authority – and that has to include challenging received wisdom and established authority within our own “communities”. Honest, constructive self criticism is vital if we’re to sort out the real problems our communities face. As you say, watching out for and challenging those who promote bigotry, a culture of victimhood, and (self-)destructive tendencies whoever they are (BNP, HuT, whoever…) is a key part of that too. As is tackling those issues that act as focal points for bigotry (I look forward to that discussion about immigration – we need to answer the claim that any discussion about immigration is drowned out by cries of “racist!”).
- We’ve got to value the distinctive cultures that we come from. But equally connect with and embrace the culture and community that we live in here and now in the UK. We can’t take control of and mould our future by either fetishising or disowning our past or our present. We’ve got to be full participants in shaping the future of our home – the UK – not merely act as spectators.
- while we shouldn’t obsess about events back where we or our parents came from, there’s no reason for us to disengage from there either. One of the most valuable contributions we can make to the UK is our knowledge of and connection with the countries we came from. We have a unique insight into particular aspects of foreign policy and it would be a shame if we didn’t make full use of it.
- we need to remain committed to the universal values that connect us all.
Increasing the visibility and political engagement of Brits of Asian background is a vital task in shaping our future. I think PP makes a key contribution to that by providing a space for discussion and development of a unique strand of progressive thought. Open to contributions from all, regardless of background. Highlighting those issues that unite us without ignoring those we disagree on (see the Euston Manifesto thread…). Reaching out to those who share PP’s aims (Popinjays, etc – still not sure about Stalin’s Tomb, but who am I to say). Being a cracking good read. Ever ready to laugh at itself – very British.
I hope PP continues to fulfill this vital role as it moves on to Phase 2 and the rest of the (secret?) Grand Plan.
Jay, John’s kinda right about Russia being in Asia.
Strictly speaking, references to Asia-Pacific should exclude Russia but not when referring to Asia as a whole. Go figure.
Elvis being the single most important person who ever lived? Yeah, I’m going to need a little more convincing too….
Bob Marley’s more important than Elvis.
To even pick someone who lived in the twentieth century as “someone who changed the world more than anyone else” demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of history. Or are we supposed to limit it to the book? It’s a meaningless question, but since we’re playing along I’ll chuck into the mix: Buddha, Alexander the Great, Benjamin Franklin, Archimedes, Jenner or on a quite literal basis of ‘changing the world’, the winner has to be Yajnavalkya, the first person to put the Earth orbiting the Sun. All these people have shaped our world as we see it today more than Elvis, Bob or Henry.
Rakhee weren’t Diana and Marilyn Monroe the most photographed people in history anyway?
Edit: stupid bloody italics.
Rohin,
OK - fair point. So I’ve gone down - a long way down the chain.
If you want a “bigger” figure.
Its got to be Akhenaten!!!
In about 1365BC he created the
“There Is Only One God” religion.
The writer of the Torah (perhaps because
he was jewish) acted like Sharespeare and
Macbeth, he made Moses the “Great Man” and
the Pharoh the villan. The HISTORICAL
truth, though, is that Akhenaten invented
“One God” religion not Moses. sigmund freud, the
father of psychology, went into some
length discussing the pyschology underneath
the Moses and Akhenaten relationship. Others have even linked Akhenaten to Sophocles’ masterpiece Oedipus Rex (which also has a trinty element - the 3 paths).
Thus Akhenaten. Why historically bigger than Mohammed and Jesus? I have already mentioned there is a great deal of doubt as to the historical existance of Mohammed (writings such as the Qu’ran appeared a century after his existance). Although there is more
substance to Jesus (writings existed within about
10 to 20 years after his death) their claims are
too wild for historians to accept at face value.
From Wikipedia:
”
there is almost no information of Muhammad, especially
about the Meccan period of his life. What we do know
about him is mainly from the Qur’an and the commentaries on the Qur’an. Modern historicans are obliged to handle this information cautiosly. The prophet is not mentioned in known historical documents of neighbouring people. The word ‘Muhammad’ occurs
only four times in the Qur’an. The oldest biography
of Muhammad had been written by Ibn Ishaq and is
dated around 750, over a century after the death
of the prophet. This biography cannot be regarded
as an objective and reliable document.
”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten
ps…the “Indian” Nazi, Savitri Devi Mukherji, also did a play on Akhenaten.
Rohin, the question wasn’t who changed the world more than any other person. My question related to how people in history have stood up for what they believed in and how they have gone about it.
Most photographed according to the book:
Queen Vic, Monroe, Ali, Gandhi, Audrey Hepburn, Elvis, Hitler, Garbo, James Dean, JFK.
Rakhee,
Okay, you can add Guru Gobind Singh to the list of historical people who stood up for what they believed in and went to huge lengths in order to attempt to facilitate positive change within human society (at massive personal cost, in his case).
Leaving the religious angle aside — which I wouldn’t expect non-Sikhs to be concerned with anyway — he’s a brilliant example of outstanding leadership, an inspirational role model for followers consisting of ordinary men and women who were often confused and terrified, unequivocally-ethical methods deployed in a “righteous” struggle, resolutely moral behaviour towards his opponents regardless of the depths they sunk to towards him and his allies, victory despite being massively outnumbered (along with “out-resourced” and often outgunned), and so on.
Who stood up for what they believed in? Hmm…in that case there are many twentieth century examples and hundreds through history. That’s a huge debate.
That books says the same people as the National Portrait Gallery’s exhibition, but Diana was always referred to as the most photographed woman in the world when she was alive…?
[quote]1. Catholic USA. There are many misconceptions about the USA and one of them is that it is a protestant country when in fact the largest religion by a huge margin is the Catholic religion. I think its goes like this 40% catholic, 20% Anglican and 20% Baptist type stuff and the rest all over the place.[/quote]
Actually, http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#Pew_branches gives figures of over 50% prod, about 25% RC.
[quote]
3. Christianity mainly developed within Greek Culture. I stick by my “wishy washy” label, it was not only Chaucer in England it was also, on a much bigger scale, Dante’s Inferno - he put the pope in there! The proof? When Henry 8th said its was more or less “cods wallop” the Country didn’t get into too much of a tiss about it.[/quote] As the bases of christianity came from judaism- with a few Graeco-Roman additions- it is in essence a middle eastern religion. If it seems European now it is because it changed Europe. Dante put popes in hell because he hated them. Nothing wisdhy-washy there. He put most of the human race and most of the people he knew in hell, following good christian theology. Henry VIII inspired serious rebellions when he took over the church. In his reign, Edward VI’s, Bloody Mary’s [how do you think she gfot the nickname?] and Elizabeth’s there were a great many people tortured or killed for religious reasons and religious revolts of one sort or another. People don’t torture or undergo torture for wishy-washy opinions.
[quote]
4. The “Football Test”. I think this is a bit of a valid point. The host nation should try - half heartedly at least, to try and pick immigrants who will get on best here. Its not like we don’t have a big choice. There are loads of people who want to come here. Perhaps immigrants should be asked some cultural questions before they can call themselves British as they have to in Germany. Can you name the 1966 England Football team perhaps.[/quote] Anyone who supposes that identifying themselves with a bunch of flannelled fools or muddied oafs has anything to do with patriotism or will do any country any good should be stripped of their citzenship at once.
“on a quite literal basis of ‘changing the world’, the winner has to be Yajnavalkya, the first person to put the Earth orbiting the Sun”
Why? Getting it right isn’t enough: showing you are right and persuading other people matters more.
Roger - it was a gag, play on words. I meant he changed the world by putting it in a different place in the universe. He didn’t actually physically change the world as much as others. In fact he didn’t have to stand up for his beliefs as he didn’t face opposition in India - the ones that opposed the heliocentric theory were Christians who came centuries later.
Rohin, you’re right. The book is the compilation of those from the National Portrait Gallery, collated by Robin Muir.
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/1855143534.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
I know what you mean about Diana. I’d argue that Madonna is also one of the most photographed but I guess it’s just taking a snapshot over the century.
And yes, it is a huge debate but wouldn’t you agree a very interesting one nonetheless?
There are lessons to be learnt from leaders successes and failures, particularly when it comes to the political playing field.
Jai, you touched on an interesting point about sacrifice. How many of the world’s leaders today really sacrifice what they have/are for what they believe in?
Rakhee,
Some would say that OBL and his closest cohorts have sacrificed a life of wealth and privilege for their cause.
Unfortunately, both their “cause” and their methods are wrong, morally and logically.
Sacrifice in itself isn’t the main thing, and neither is “standing up for what one believes in” — one has to be doing it for the right reasons and for the right aims.
It is interesting, however, that some of the most inspiring and admired leaders in history have so often ended up being assassinated — relatively recent examples being Guru Gobind Singh, Abraham Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi and JFK.
You can add Martin Luther King to that list too.
Roger,
Sorry mate but you linked to a 2002 site.
These are the 2005 figures.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001481.html
Its of course growing faster each generation
as more Mexicans arrive. But what ever figures
you use the Catholic church is by far the largest
in the USA.
I am a bit of a historian Roger, and I feel it
pretty safe to say that the religious “uprisings”
you talk about are small compared to the “peasents
revolts” where people wanted more money.
For modern examples when Franco died so did much of Spanish catholicism - there have been no major counter-revolutionary attempts.
Roger - it was a gag, play on words.-
I wondered, Rohin: the problem is that in a sciece forum elsewhere I have spent so much time explaining that being right- saying the earth goes round the sun- is not enough- some of the Greeks said so too. You need to give reasons for it. I tend to automatically knee-jerk into a reaction like that. all the same, I’m grateful to come across Yajnavalkya.
“But what ever figures
you use the Catholic church is by far the largest
in the USA.”
The largest individual one, certainly. However, as the one thing that unites the prods is not being papists it makes little difference against prods as a collection there and it is certainly a lot smaller than your original estimate of 40%.
Most of the peasants’ revolts were quasi-religious or expressed in religious terms- “When Adam delved and Eve span who was then the gentleman?”- and they weren’t about money but other matters- forced labour, nobles’ privileges and rents in kind. Look at the German Peasants’ Revolts in the sixteenth century and the Hussites too; you couldn’t separate the religious revolution from the political. What they all had in common though is that they were far from wishy-washy and the methods used to suppress them couldn’t be called that either.
The collapse of Yugoslavia was inspired by religio-cultural differences. Little more than sixty years ago the Croat Franciscan extermination/conversion camps for Orthodox Serbs shocked SS officers and Franco himself, you may recall, announced that he was leading a cruzada.
Roger,
Certainly the Croat Nazi’s were infamous.
Franco had 11 members of Opus Dei in his cabinet so he was linked to the right of the Catholic Church. However towards the end of this “reign” the Church went left (Vatican 2) and supported the left-wing Spanish unions instead. But it was too little too late.
So you see, we both agree on the facts, its just our analysis produces different results. In my analysis the brits where more interested in money and perhaps freedom then they were in religion. In yours you put religion higher up on the agenda.
We agree to differ. Thanks for replying.
Cheers John
i’m a little concerned at all this rather glib “akhenaten invented monotheism” nonsense. it’s an opinion. frankly, i’d think that people had better things to do than to accuse my religion of being a bunch of derivative codswallop. come on, guys. it’s not exactly conducive to sensible discussion any more than saying “you’re all going to hell unless you accept jesus” or whatever. if you want to spout ill-informed second-hand crap about judaism, you’re welcome to try it over at http://www.comparative-religion.com.
b’shalom
bananabrain
yeah its a bit silly..
bananabrain ,
I apologise - I was simply going on the historical evidence (such as it is). No offence intended.
If you have better historical evidence for someone
else then please tell me.
Cheers john
john, that’s the point. historical evidence is there to provide evidence for *historians*, not religious people. religion has a totally different set of criteria, like “does it work?”, “does it provide answers for how we should live our lives?”, “does it enable us to develop a relationship with the spiritual dimension?” and “is this a sustainable way for our culture to develop?” - by all these judaism is a definite success. what i think seems to annoy academics, historians and archaeologists in particular, is that we ought not to exist. we’re an anomaly that still hasn’t been ironed out of history. in short, we are an exception to historical rules - it doesn’t make sense that judaism should have survived the last three and a half millennia or however long it is. have we been influenced by other cultures? surely. have we remained ourselves? even more so. have we exercised a disproportionate influence on human history given our numbers? certainly. all history can offer us is “well, based on our understanding of these documents or inscriptions, this is what we think was going on” - it’s done without any connection to the anthropological context. if you want a better understanding of what i mean then i can recommend mary douglas’ book “leviticus as literature”, which goes further than any outsider’s perspective i’ve ever seen to explain the internal logic of this most seemingly dated of documents. whether you believe in revelation or G!D or whatever or not, it does us an enormous disservice to suggest that judaism is basically a rip-off of an egyptian fad that just happens to have lasted thousands of years. not very likely, really, is it?
b’shalom
bananabrain
bananabrain - exactly.
Few adults seriously criticise the practice of telling kids that Santa Clause delivers their christmas presents, because the criteria for whether the Santa Claus story ‘works’ isnt whether it’s ‘true’ but rather whether it’s a comforting myth that makes children feel nice.
Any adult that went around trying to tell kids the Truth about Santa Claus would be regarded as a fool and a killjoy.
although santa claus hasn’t sustained a civilisation and wrought profound changes in human society over a period of 3500 years, of course.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Givn the changes wrought by the Abrahamic religions: Good for Santa!
good for Akhenaton, Jove, Odin, Mithras…and every other religious system that didn’t work these changes too.
Santa works in mysterious ways and has many proxyies !!
Of course he has never given away his real identity and I am sure in the afterlife - its presents for all !! yeepee.
Bananabrain - please re-read your last post few posts and have a chuckle. Sounds a bit like , you know when the Government or Chancellor claims the credit for the good performance of the economy, when we down here on Earth know its the hard working people who have made the economy better, and it has nothing to do with the Government.
Justforfun
Just to say - on most definitions, Moscow isnt in Asia. The traditional dividing line between Europe & Asia is the Ural Mountains (although that was made up itself, by a Swedish diplomat in the 18th century). I’m told on reasonably reliable authority (well,by a Russian friend) that on one of the roads leading through the Urals, there’s a two-handed sign, with ‘Europe’ one way and ‘Asia’ the other.
[...] Incidentally there is another twist which makes the Human Rights Act particularly relevant to Pickled Politics. As Sunny has consistently argued, one of the major problems with race relations in this country is the presence of community leaders and experts who end up serving themselves. Politicians influenced by a utilitarian mindset see responding to such groups as being both democratic, as well as a way of increasing their own support and popularity. To a certain extent such local institutions are necessary for democracies to work and the problem with Asian communities is the disconnect between older and younger generations. However, whatever the system, individual rights can protect the minority (or the under-represented) within the minority. [...]