Shane (From Indian Finishing School)

” I cant imagine anyone would say that to someone who was supposed to be their friend.”
I didn’t say Faisal was a friend. He was a colleague at work. Logically, however, if you like someone and think they are going to be horribly tortured for ever if they continue holding their present beliefs and living in the way those beliefs would encourage then that may well seem the lesser evil. After all, isn’t one of the justifications for muslim punishments of chopping and lopping supposed to be that it cleanses the criminal of the sin and so enables them to get to paradise? Unfortunately we’ve had no reliable assessment of the success rate yet.
“They Ummah already exists Roger so he should have already killed you for not converting.”
You forget, that there are many varieties of muslims and not all agree with you that the ummah exists or- if it exists- that it exists as it should.

“Here is some advice dont come blogging while you are menstrating because you are being completely unreasonable and emotional. ”
Ahem.

I don’t think that many muslims go in for this sort of weird nonsense, but the problem remains that any muslim might start thinking about what they believe, instead of merely believing, and draw logical conclusions from their thoughts and act on them. It’s a problem with every revealed religion.

i really liked part 2

What happens to them?

“People like Bikhair are very handy; when we are discussing things with a civilised muslim it is easy to forget just what their beliefs if rigorously carried out would lead to- and there are other muslims who want to carry those beliefs out rigorously. Bikhair very usefully reminds us of that fact.”

Shut up you idiot. What do I remind you of? Be very specific.

“It’s hard to generalise about several hundred million people, I agree, but i can remember years ago a colleague explaining to me that I really ought to become a muslim because I’d go to hell if i didn’t and that- as I’m an agnostic- he’d regretfully have to kill me if i didn’t accept islam come the glorious ummah which was any day now.”

Apprently it isnt hard to generalize. Are you expirienceing hot flashes right now? I cant imagine anyone would say that to someone who was supposed to be their friend. They Ummah already exists Roger so he should have already killed you for not converting. Are you stupid? What kind of people do you hang out with? Are you sure you didnt dream this up?

Here is some advice dont come blogging while you are menstrating because you are being completely unreasonable and emotional.

Sonia: “does anyone seriously think if you haven’t got an opinion on divinity you haven’t got any ‘belief systems’?”
i think it’s better- and I try- to have a nonbelief-system. I don’t know what is true and right but most of the time you can be pretty sure about what is wrong and untrue.

does anyone seriously think if you haven’t got an opinion on divinity you haven’t got any ‘belief systems’? if anyone did think that – that to me would represent an idiotic dogmatic belief in itself, identical to any dogmatically held ‘religious’ beliefs.

I like it – Does anyone seriously think that dogmatically held ‘religious’ beliefs are not idiotic -therefore once an idiot, why not idiotically
believe that if you haven’t got an opinion on divinity you haven’t got any ‘belief systems’?

So now the solution is to remove idiocy from the population (by upping the exam pass rate perhaps)and our religious problems will be solved. – I just wish it were that simple

Justforfun

he heh some muslims do sure. and so do lots of atheists, and other folk. religion is only one type of belief system – that involves divinity. does anyone seriously think if you haven’t got an opinion on divinity you haven’t got any ‘belief systems’? if anyone did think that – that to me would represent an idiotic dogmatic belief in itself, identical to any dogmatically held ‘religious’ beliefs.

Yeah, Jews control the world and Muslims want to convert everyone to Islam AND then take over the world.

Come out of the dark Roger, its nice and warm out here.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeyit Bikhair. You just gave our gameplan away.

Everything else you mention regarding Muslims about in #114 is absolutely true. In fact, you’ve probably understated yo9ur case. But what you fail to mention, either because of ignorance or bias or what have you, is that there is a sizeable groundswell of Muslims who are taking on the extremist co-religionsists in their midsts. If you haven’t seen their blogs, websites and ideas then you should.

As for Geras, I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke but if you’re Liberal and an apologist for American belligerance you’re at risk of being labelled a imperialist in Liberal clothing.

He also seems to be unwilling to accept any criticism of Israeli policies of aggression or human rights abuses against Palestinians. How does that make him any different from Muslims who are unwilling to accept (or are in a state of strategic denial of) the endemic problems in the Muslim world. In other words, how different is that from Ismaeel’s own brand of clannish conceit?

In fact, looks to me that Ismaeel and Geras are joined at the hip!

Sure he does. His name is Amir and he comments here on PP.

Good points about Ismaeel. I realised that backtracking wouldn’t necessarily be an option for him as it would undermine his public credibility as a supposedly devout Muslim and, particularly, as a representative/spokesman for the MAC.

However, my suspicions about him being psychotic aside, I think it’s good that he was so honest about his true opinions and personality, both with regards to his attitude to Sikhism and the unscrupulous (not to mention hypocritical and psychopathic) methods he was willing to deploy against other people in order to further his own agenda. Anyone wishing to see the “the true picture” can read the evidence for themselves simply by accessing PP and reading Ismaeel’s own words in black and white.

well thats the point – I had hoped that Religion could be kept out of Politics but unfortunately in the West we seem to be being dragged back into the Middle Ages where politics and religion were one and the same.

It’s taken us 3500years since a bronze age shaman called Zarathustra set us free from mumbo jumbo jumbo mumbo when he had the inspired idea of ‘the future’ where the world did not have to be like the past. No longer was man at the whim of Gods. Mankind alone is responsible for making the future better. Now it seems we want to abrogate our responsibilities to a collection of moth eaten dictation notes cobbled together by various people over the years and told to believe they are the works of God and then bowdown to people who revel in combining religious understanding and power.

The Queen should not be the “Defender of the Faith” but rather “Hammer of the Faiths”. I think I’ll write to my MP with the idea – Look now Raz – you got me all riled up

Justforfun

Well, he’s still alive, isn’t he

“Anyway when a religion tries to justify itself by refering to similar bad in other religions it does not do much good for itself”

I agree totally. All religions on earth are guilty of accusing others instead of looking within.

“A question though – was Rabin murdered by his co-religionists for religious reasons or political/nationalistic reasons?”

Religion and politics/nationalism are always intertwined. The world has always been that way.

Anyway when a religion tries to justify itself by refering to similar bad in other religions it does not do much good for itself but only fosters complacancy.

A question though – was Rabin murdered by his co-religionists for religious reasons or political/nationalistic reasons?

Justforfun

Xerexes had specifically mentioned Muslims in Britain in his post. Also, Jews Sans Frontiers is a British blog, so it makes sense to compare his experiences to British Muslims. As far as the rest of the world goes, of course Muslim dissenters are in danger, but as I have shown, even great Jewish leaders like Rabin and Sharon are not safe from this kind of fanaticism. And also your own example of Hindus being killed in India.

Anyway as an aside – last year in Bradford ,was not a man from Pakistan and his family, including three children, firebombed while they slept? Of course he had gone beyond dissent and was an apostate. Luckily they survived and are now in hiding. Sorry I can’t remember his name. And I will apologise if I have misrepresented the incident.

Justforfun

PS the killing of people who convert is not the sole preserve of Islam, plenty die in India for converting away from Hinduism. Although its the conversion to Christianity rather than the dissent or apostacy that seems to be the main factor I think , but I’m no expert.

Remember, Spinoza too was expelled from his community for what he said. That community only wanted to impose its laws on its own members, remember: muslims think taht they have the right to impose their rules on everyone. People like Bikhair are very handy; when we are discussing things with a civilised muslim it is easy to forget just what their beliefs if rigorously carried out would lead to- and there are other muslims who want to carry those beliefs out rigorously. Bikhair very usefully reminds us of that fact.

Which British Muslim dissenters have been killed?

Also, if you think Muslims are the only ones who don’t tolerate dissent, two words – Yitzhak Rabin. Even the great Ariel Sharon, a man who dedicated his whole life to defending the Jewish people from evil, was not safe from death threats from fanatical Jewish extremists.