Those dastardly migrants


by Rumbold
27th May, 2009 at 11:54 am    

The Telegraph reports that “a drop in migrants” threatens Britain’s economic recovery:

“Immigrant workers have been leaving in large numbers and the Ernst & Young Item Club said the level of migration to the UK over the past decade would not return even when the downturn ends.

It said the country was losing its appeal to migrants and the impact could hit the growth of gross domestic product and damage efforts to “rebalance” an economy heavily reliant on financial services by boosting manufacturing.”

These migrants can’t seem to get anything right. Last year they were ‘taking our jobs’, now they are leaving just when we need them. Typical Johnny Foreigner.


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  1. Steve Baker — on 27th May, 2009 at 12:20 pm  

    I´m sure the two million (plus) out of work and the hundreds of thousands of school leavers with no job prospects, wouldn´t agree.

    You´d have to be an imbecile to believe that article.

    Net immigration has quadrupled since 1997 to 237,000 a year.

    A migrant now arrives nearly every minute.

    We must build a new home every six minutes for new migrants.

    England is already the most crowded country in Europe (except Malta)

    Immigration will add 7 million to the population of England in the next 20 years – that is 7 times the population of Birmingham.

    To keep the population of the UK below 70 million, immigration must be reduced by 75%. Government measures so far may reduce it by 5%.

    We could do with more buzzing off. The people that are already established in the UK need the jobs they leave behind. Families with mortgages and credit cards to pay off.

    Don´t blame, Johnny Foreigner, it´s not him that makes these daft statements, it´s the so-called “experts”.

    Experts that have to justify their salaries by coming up with b*ll*cks like this.

  2. Saba — on 27th May, 2009 at 12:21 pm  

    Its the ‘can’t live with em/can’t live without em’ debate everywhere. Last year when I was in Jordan, the displaced/migrant Iraqis who lived there were constantly painted out to be the #1 cause of inflation in the country.

  3. munir — on 27th May, 2009 at 2:16 pm  

    Steve Baker
    “We could do with more buzzing off. ”

    Great-when are you leaving?

  4. munir — on 27th May, 2009 at 2:19 pm  

    Steve Baker

    ” The people that are already established in the UK need the jobs they leave behind. Families with mortgages and credit cards to pay off”

    Sorry to break this to you but very few Brits would do he job cleaning toilets or picking fruit for £5 an hour that the immigrants do.
    Also we live in a globalized economy- if a company can find cheaper workers outside the UK it will relocate.

  5. munir — on 27th May, 2009 at 2:21 pm  

    Its of course obvious that a sign a country is doing well is that people want to come and live there.
    So we should actually be glad to live in such a place.

    Or would you prefer the UK to be like Zimbabwe, Congo or Somalia where people are desperate to leave?

  6. Jai — on 27th May, 2009 at 3:21 pm  

    Or would you prefer the UK to be like Zimbabwe, Congo or Somalia where people are desperate to leave?

    Just in case the matter needed re-iteration for anyone’s benefit, Zimbabwe, Congo or Somalia is exactly what Britain will turn into if people are insane enough to vote the BNP into power.

    The horrific economic collapse that will result due to mass emigration, international sanctions, trade embargoes, withdrawal of financial & business investment in the UK, severing of business relationships, and the massive damage to financial instutions (and the associated financial markets) in both the retail/commerical and the investment banking sectors will literally turn Britain into a basket case so-called “Third World” country off the coast of northwestern Europe.

    So if anyone out there is thinking of voting BNP during the impending elections and/or at any point in the future, I suggest you think through the real-world consequences of electing them to power.

    Because the current economic turmoil is absolutely nothing compared to the disaster that will engulf this nation and its inhabitants if a BNP government is installed in Downing Street and Westminster. It will be much, much worse than anything people in Britain have experienced for hundreds of years — and that includes the impact of both World Wars.

  7. Ravi Naik — on 27th May, 2009 at 3:37 pm  

    Just in case the matter needed re-iteration for anyone’s benefit, Zimbabwe, Congo or Somalia is exactly what Britain will turn into if people are insane enough to vote the BNP into power.

    Well said.

  8. munir — on 27th May, 2009 at 3:51 pm  

    Jai

    “Just in case the matter needed re-iteration for anyone’s benefit, Zimbabwe, Congo or Somalia is exactly what Britain will turn into if people are insane enough to vote the BNP into power. ”

    It will undoubtedly be an unmitigated social, financial and moral disaster but even then the UK wouldnt be nearly as bad as the countries mentioned- it has a functioning first world infrastructure and population. There would be financial sanctions but not that many; companies are happy to deal with facsist regimes as long as theres money in it.

    In fact the only way the BNP could ever ever get in power is if there already was a total economic collapse.

    Its worth reminding ourselves how extreme the situation was in 1930s that led to the Nazis coming to power- a devastating loss in a world war with millions dead, a humiliating defeat and the Versailles treaty, a total economic collapse which reduced a prosperous natiion to penury and perhaps even more as important an elite terrified of the alternative to the Nazis (the communists).Of these 4 things only 1 is even remotely likely in our times.
    Its worth remembering this before condemning the German people too much. It wasnt as if Fritz lost his job then one day though -I know Ill vote for Hitler.

    It is pretty much impossible to imagine such a scenario repeating itself.

  9. Jai — on 27th May, 2009 at 6:12 pm  

    Well said.

    Thanks Ravi.

    it has a functioning first world infrastructure and population.

    Not for much longer if — for example — the huge number of Asians (and other non-white people) currently working in the NHS as doctors etc left the UK en masse upon the election of a BNP government or were subsequently forced out. The subsequent death toll of patients due to bottlenecks and a shortage of medical staff would be huge.

    That’s something else for members of the public considering putting an ‘X’ next to the word ‘BNP’ on any voting papers to think about.

    Along with the fact that an African American US President who will have a very personal grudge against “Grand Dragon Nick Griffin” will not necessarily be particularly passive in response to an explicitly racist Neo-Nazi country in northern Europe with access to a nuclear arsenal and with a potentially hostile agenda against other countries with a majority non-white population. Obama has already been very outspoken about his opinion of white racists, using unreservedly explicit language. And I don’t think we want anyone getting any funny ideas about re-painting swathes of the world map pink/red again either.

    In fact the only way the BNP could ever ever get in power is if there already was a total economic collapse.

    Let’s hope so, for all our sakes.

  10. Don — on 27th May, 2009 at 6:36 pm  

    munir #8,

    Seldom agree with you, but that’s a fair point.

  11. sastaRasta — on 28th May, 2009 at 8:21 am  

    I see a pattern to stories of this kind and tend to agree with Steve Baker’s conclusion (I’m not a Briton nor am I in Britain). This is probably based on a handily commissioned industry group survey. Wouldn’t read much into it either way, let alone debate extreme horrors based on BNP coming to power (you know the country’s in deep sh*t if they are even close). Businesses routinely talk up demand for skilled labour while nothing is done to train local people. I am an immigrant worker myself, but hey, it’s fun to call BS when you see it.

  12. chairwoman — on 28th May, 2009 at 9:24 am  

    This is a first, but I agree with everything munir said at #8.

    And, not unusually, everything Jai said at#9.

  13. damon — on 28th May, 2009 at 11:03 am  

    ”What if the BNP came to power??” That old chestnut again. Why even talk like that?
    I said before that talk like that reminds me of the novel ”Fatherland” where the Nazi’s have won world war two.

    Maybe that’s complacent of me, but having heard so much talk of the BNP (on programmes like Question Time) and then seeing the Christian Alliance poster campaign focusing on the BNP (and also last night’s ‘No2EU’ political broadcast on TV).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOfv47sho_U
    See at one minute 40 seconds in.

    Anyway, this morning I was reading this article by Mick Hume in Spiked, and I found my self being persuaded by it.
    ”When all else fails, bash the BNP”
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6750/

  14. chavscum — on 28th May, 2009 at 11:09 am  

    The original post gets a pounding from Steve and all the rest of you can do is bury your heads in the sand and squeal about the BNP. Its if you are all so conveniently stupid you equate any questioning of mass immigration policies as racist or BNP led. Poll after poll has shown the vast majority of people in Britain believe in limited immigration. They are concerned about the lack of infrastructure to deal with immigration led population growth, housing and education problems. They are concerned about the segregation of communities and erosion of social and cultural identity. By refusing to even engage in debate, let alone change policies, the Left are driving people to vote for fascists.

    We keep being told the Eastern Europeans have gone home. Well they may not be in Islington or Primrose Hill, but they are certainly still out in force in my part of town. The most educated and proactive will just follow the money. Our social and welfare ‘fishing net’ policies mean we are left with the dregs.

    Before the recession, there were 5m people of working age on State benefits of some kind. The numbers claiming disability benefit has massively increased under Labour. The ‘real’ unemployment levels in this country are huge. Importing cheap labour through student visa abuse, illiegal migration, holiday visas and via the accession countries just drives down wages for low-skilled labour. Importing ambitious, educated, yet relatively poor migrants, is good for unscrupulous businesses and the wealthy middle-classes, who see the services they consume become cheaper. However, its short-term boom for some, but long-term hell for the majority.

    We have one of the worst level of lower-class educational achievement in the Western World. Present policies, including tax and benefits, keep millions in relative poverty, while the middle-classes become wealthier. It is more beneficial for a single mum to be workless than earn £20k/year. We need massive investment in education, lower taxes for low incomes (not the pathetic tax rebates), lower welfare benefits, a reversal of many of the policies that erode discipline in schools and restricted immigration.

    Rates for professions such as nursing are kept artificially low by the preference to import labour rather than train and develop labour. These policies also remove the upwardly mobile people from the developing countries, who invest in training and then see their skilled labour desert their shores. This harms the development of these nations, who then get aid from the UK. The stupidity of the whole saga is only matched by the stupidity of people who just brand people like myself as “racist” or “talking the language of the BNP”.

  15. Rumbold — on 28th May, 2009 at 12:02 pm  

    Chavscum:

    Nobody is saying that cannot be a debate about levels of immigration. I was just pointing out the contradiction between complaining about migrants taking our jobs and then complaining when they leave.

  16. Jai — on 28th May, 2009 at 1:27 pm  

    the Left are driving people to vote for fascists.

    In which case, it’s extremely important to repeatedly clarify and emphasise the eventual logical, political, economic and potentially military consequences of making that decision.

    Maybe that’s complacent of me

    There were obviously a combination of factors resulting in the German people democratically electing the Nazis to power (as Munir correctly summarised in #8), but considering that the Holocaust subsequently happened in what had previously been widely regarded as the most advanced, cultured and “civilised” country in Europe, it’s best to never be complacent about these things. Ever.

    Especially in relation to a fascist organisation such as the BNP which has explicit links to the KKK (amongst others) and unashamedly views non-white people as practically subhuman. These psychopaths would kill or enslave every single one of us that is non-white if they thought they could get away with it.

  17. chavscum — on 28th May, 2009 at 3:34 pm  

    Rumbold. That would only be a contradiction if Ernst & Young had been complaining about immigrants taking their jobs, which I doubt they ever had.

    Jai. Don’t be silly. There is no chance of the BNP ever winning power. To suggest so, is just an attempt to scare people and to overlook the underlying issues why increasing numbers are turning to them. To just label people who vote for them as racist, scum, etc, is just pathetic and lazy.

    Some in the Left are happy for this state of affairs to continue because they genuinely want to see open borders and believe in universal socialism. They also suffer from self-loathing and seek to undermine any British/English identity by whatever means. Others in the Left are just “useful idiots”, who just lazily repeat clichés and just attach themselves to the latest dogma like sheep. Some more liberal thinkers will have doubts about present policies, but unlike the brave Frank Field, are bullied into believing such a stance is right-wing; the tribal nature of politics prevents free thinking.

  18. Jai — on 28th May, 2009 at 5:27 pm  

    To suggest so, is just an attempt to scare people

    People considering voting for the BNP should indeed be absolutely terrified of the real-world consequences of what they’re supporting.

    and to overlook the underlying issues why increasing numbers are turning to them.

    Nobody is suggesting any “sweeping under the carpet” of the underlying issues. This is a matter of highlighting exactly what type of people members of the public are considering giving their vote to.

    To just label people who vote for them as racist, scum, etc, is just pathetic and lazy.

    On the contrary, I am labelling the BNP itself as racist, scum etc, along with those who agree with the organisation’s racist ideas. The latter does not necessarily apply to all of the various individuals who choose to vote for them.

    I think all of us here are well aware that the reasons that people vote for the BNP are manifold and are not necessarily always driven by racism, particularly if it’s a “protest vote” or motivated by a perceived lack of altenatives.

    However…..it is still critical to highlight exactly what type of organisation and policies people are giving their vote to. Nuanced reasons aside, there are limits to the extent to which any reasonable person would seek to “understand” why a person would support Al Qaeda, the Taliban or Al-Muhajiroun, for example; the BNP is no different (indeed, on previous occasions I’ve stated repeatedly that, in the context of British society and culture, the BNP is essentially the British Taliban), except for the fact that it is an “official political party”.

    But beyond that ? Let’s not forget that this is an organisation whose inner circle would have aggressively supported the slave-owning southern Confederacy in the American Civil War specifically due to their own views on racial matters. This is an organisation which would have preferred the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s to have failed and, given a free hand, would completely strip non-white British people of their human rights. And this is an organisation which would prefer President Barack Obama, his wife and his two daughters to either be reduced to literal slavery or have nooses around their necks and be hanging from the nearest available tree.

    Just to be clear. Again, if anyone out there is considering voting BNP, this is the type of people you’ll be supporting and assisting, regardless of your own individual reasons for doing so (which may not actually be driven by racism at all, as I said earlier).

    There is no chance of the BNP ever winning power.

    Let’s hope not, because the consequences for the white population of this country (not just the rest of us) would be absolutely horrific. In terms of the global political, economic and (in the worst case scenario) military onslaught that would be unleashed against Britain by the Obama Administration, it would be the vendetta from hell.

  19. Jai — on 29th May, 2009 at 9:26 am  

    Jai, I agree with much of what you say, but I also find that your morally sound views, still (unintentionally perhaps) have a tendency to close discussion down.
    From bitter experience on another left wing (solidly anti-racist website), I hesitate to get into this area once again, but I hope Picklers are a more broadminded lot than those other people.

    Yes the BNP may actually be a fascist organisation, and if they had greater popularity it would be bad news all round.

    But it’s not the BNP itself that I’m so interested in, (as they are such an easy target), but what to do if you are on the left and you know that a large part of the population is less ”progressive” than you.

    Act like some vanguard revolutionary and try to push things in a better direction?
    So much of the country have opinions similar to those they read in The Sun and the Daily Mail. Do you just ignore them and pour scorn on them?? (That’s what most people on that other website did).

    Forget about the BNP. I’d much rather hear people take the opinions of Migration Watch apart.
    Those other people absolutely refused to do so, and then turned on me when I said I thought they were dodging the debate and being dishonest.
    http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/pressReleases#192

    I have said it before, but that kind of dogged refusal to enguage with ”Middle England” and Sun readers, I think helps grow support for the BNP.

    In fact I know it does as I know people who (although maybe not so sophisticated) speak with resentment about the way that discussion is stiffled in this country.

    One may not like their opinions, but to ignore them and tell them to shut up, or that they are bordering on racism (or facsism) – which is something much of the anti-racist left does .. as I said, I think builds the resentment that the BNP feeds on.

    Quite simply, not everyone likes the way that the most heavilly multi-cultural neighbourhoods are in reality.
    People in Eastbourne for example, might not want their town to become like Lambeth and Southwark in London.
    Does make them racist, if it’s just that they don’t want their kids school to become like the White Hart Lane school in Tottenham? (I’m not sure myself – maybe it does).
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/one-school-130-dialects-and-a-world-of-troubles-698174.html

    I do wonder sometimes if the left in a country like Britain are not themselves being unintentionally racist, when they have such high demands of the people of this country to have such a high standard of political and cultural understanding, that they would never dream of expecting of people in non western countries.
    So we accept (maybe because we can’t do anything about it as we don’t live there) that in a place like Fiji, or Guyana, race will be of issue to people, and that people will vote along racial lines.
    If people of Indian origin were in power in Fiji, and moved to allow more immigration, that the native Fijians might not be too happy about that.

    We accept that in China and Japan, a majority of people see them selves in racial terms. You are Chinese, or you’re not Chinese. In Japan, if you are not Japanese (ethnicly) then you are a ”Gaijin ”.
    If you put it to Japanese people, did they want to open their borders to the world, I guess the majority of the population would say no.

    Saying all that, I do accept that it is pointless trying to debate with the BNP themselves.

  20. damon — on 29th May, 2009 at 9:32 am  

    damn it – I’ve written Jai’s name above in that post I just did @ 19. I’m really sorry, I was rushing to get ready for work.

    post number 19 is written by me not Jai.

    Sorry Jai.

  21. douglas clark — on 29th May, 2009 at 9:46 am  

    Jai,

    Could Leon please repeat his lessons on the joys of blockquoting to you?

    (I tried, but it ain’t that easy :-( )

    Then I’d know what you are saying and what you are responding to. Though I probably got the sense of it eventually. You shouldn’t torture us so!

  22. douglas clark — on 29th May, 2009 at 9:50 am  

    damon,

    Okay…

    So my comment above ought to be addressed for your benefit then.

  23. Ravi Naik — on 29th May, 2009 at 10:04 am  

    Damon, I do hope that “open-border” people are a small minority. Most people – from all political spectrum understand that immigration must be controlled, because resources are limited. The difference between BNP and other political parties, is that the BNP wants to control immigration based on race. And has made any discussion about immigration as a discussion about race and exclusion of race.

    I find that multiculturism is a good thing, but segregated neighbourhoods a very bad thing. Not sure if there is a causality link between them, and whether we would be better served by the melting-pot model.

  24. Jai — on 29th May, 2009 at 11:30 am  

    damn it – I’ve written Jai’s name above in that post I just did @ 19. I’m really sorry, I was rushing to get ready for work.

    post number 19 is written by me not Jai.

    Sorry Jai.

    No problem, Damon. It happens. This is why I always use the ‘preview’ function before I submit any comments, regardless of how brief the comment concerned may be ;)

    **************************

    Regarding your other points: I appreciate what you’re saying but it’s not about a wish to “shut down debate”. Look at it this way (and to expand on my previous analogy): There are limits to how far one would try to “understand” the motivations and grievances of Afghans and Pakistanis supporting the various versions of the Taliban in their respective countries, or British Muslims who support Al-Muhajiroun, or Muslims worldwide who support Al-Qaeda, or Hindus in India who support one of the extremist Hindutva groups there, or white Americans who support the KKK. Considering that the supporters of these various groups/organisations are well aware of the nastier aspects of their respective ideologies and aspirations.

    The bunch of Nazi thugs comprising the BNP are no different in many, many aspects to the various malevolent groups/organisations I’ve just listed. Therefore, the same principle applies to supporters of the BNP and supporters of the latter. I don’t see why anyone should apply different standards in this case, just because we happen to be talking about Britain and white British people.

    Otherwise you may as well start bending over backwards to try to understand the “grievances” of people who plot domestic terrorist attacks against other British civilians in response to the Western invastions of Iraq and Afghanistan, for example (or those who support or “sympathise” with Islamist terrorists who engage in such activities). And we’re not about to start doing that, are we, so I don’t see why supporters of the BNP should be treated any differently, irrespective of their actual reasons for voting for that party.

    People know damn well what kind of organisation they’re pledging their support to, whether it’s the BNP or any of those other groups I’ve mentioned.

  25. Jai — on 29th May, 2009 at 11:35 am  

    Incidentally, there have been some interesting articles about the BNP in The Times during the past few days — more because of the subsequent comment threads that have ensued.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6375493.ece

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6375915.ece

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article6374280.ece

    The first comment thread in particular is “interesting” reading.

  26. Shamit — on 29th May, 2009 at 11:45 am  

    Editors -=- sorry to derail but I think someone should write a post about Australian racist attacks which are getting bad to worse over the years.

    What is even more infuriating is the Aussie police claims that these attacks over the year do not have any racial component to it? Well I have always argued that Australia is institutionally racist and now hopefully the world would take notice.

  27. chavscum — on 29th May, 2009 at 2:44 pm  

    Give us your evidence of Australia being “institutionally racist”. Failing that, give us your own criteria for a country to be “institutionally racist”. Then, name a majority non-white country that you believe not to be institutionally racist.

  28. Shamit — on 29th May, 2009 at 4:21 pm  

    Firstly, I don’t think Britain is institutionally racist. Lets start from there.

    I have personally experienced Australia’s institutional racism and I have written about that here few times. Most regulars know about it.

    Those frequently visting on business visits or personal visits and not white have had similar experiences. These are people I know and none of them are crooks and most were visiting Australia for valid business/professional reasons and often on invitation from Australian organisations.

    I am not one who uses the racist card usually and I abhor using it. But to most Australian government folks somehow your skin colour makes you more prone to excessive searches and harrassment and I am saying this while carrying a British passport. Imagine if you are carrying an Indian passport?

    The racist attacks on foreigners ie those with a different skin colour or religion sadly is becoming more and more frequent in parts of Australia. And the victims have been Jews, Chinese, Indians and the list goes on. Go back a few years and you can see a trend steadily growing.

    In the recent attacks, while the Aussie Government wants to play down the race issue, it is clearly an issue based on eye witnesses. And, the police trying to imply these are not racist attacks along with my own experiences somehow makes me think that there are institutional problems which the Aussie Government has failed to address for a long time. My experiences are about a decade old now.

  29. Rumbold — on 29th May, 2009 at 7:35 pm  

    Shamit:

    Could you write a guest post for us on it please, as you seem to know a lot about it? Just send it to Rumbold[at]pickledpolitics.com

    With the @ replacing the [at].

  30. Jai — on 29th May, 2009 at 7:37 pm  

    Shamit buddy,

    A quick sidebar about an indirectly related topic:

    When you have a spare minute, Google “BNP Isaac Brown” and “BNP Bert Rustle” respectively.

    Regardless of whether or not they’re actually the same person, ol’ Isaac/Bert has been quite busy openly & systematically defending the BNP and their deranged ideas/policies on the internet during the past year or two. It’s actually quite eyebrow-raising to see exactly how “busy”. It must have been practically a full-time job, considering the sheer number of websites and discussion forums involved.

    Sorry for interrupting your conversation with Mr Chavscum, but I just saw exactly how prolific Isaac/Bert has/have been on multiple websites and thought you’d find it interesting. Looks like the guy has been on a one-man mission to spread that poison as widely as possible.

    Anyway, back to your debate about Australia…..Carry on…..

  31. damon — on 30th May, 2009 at 12:53 pm  

    Thanks Jai for your understanding of my mistake in writing your name instead of mine at the top of post 19. It was embarrassing.

    Anyway, my point was (more or less) that I try to take the focus off the BNP itself and try to see if there is any justification in the arguments put forward in those places they often use as their sources. That means giving the reactionary press at least a hearing (and that does mean reading people like Richard Littlejohn and The Sun’s Jon Gaunt).
    I think that a lot of people on the left would roll their eyes and ask ”why bother?”

    The reason I think it’s important to argue against their ideas (if they are flawed or actually do show prejudice or chauvanism) is that that is where so many ordinary people actually are in their thinking.
    Jon Gaunt (when he was on Talk Sport radio) really was ”the voice” of this very real ”white van man”.
    I know this ‘white van man’ quite well, as I do it for a living.

    I found the attitudes of the smuggly superior people on a previous forum I was on, to be a part of the problem (in pushing lumpen people with backward views towards the likes of the BNP.)

    That’s why I think Sir Andrew Green’s views (founder of Migration Watch) should be analysied and broken down, and where flawed, those flaws should be exposed for that.
    And where they chime with a large part of public opinion, then that should be acknowledged too.

    So that’s where (Jai) I part with your comparrisons with the Taliban or Al-Muhajiroun. I’m not talking about the BNP.

    So I’d be more inclined to look at an article that caused some controversy in 2004 (in Prospect Magazine).
    It was called ”Discomfort of strangers”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/feb/24/race.eu

    The other left forum I was on wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole, as it seemed that they felt it was not wise to discuss things on a public forum that might encourage racists. Nor would they for one minute discuss Migration Watch other than to denigrate them as being (intentionally or not) BNP bed fellows.

    So as much as I might think people with a parochial view should be pushed towards opening their minds somewhat (through education), I can’t help understanding that people from rural England might just ”not get” what is so fantastic about a school like the White Hart Lane school in Tottenham where there 60 (or was it 130?) different languages spoken, and where children are constantly joining existing classes (and others leaving them) as new families set up in Britain for the first time.
    Some people might see having their children at a ”front line” school like that as a hugely rewarding and solid grounding in ”the world” – whereas others might fret for their children’s education.

    But what really gets on my nerves is that when this is discussed it quickly breaks down in to rival camps who then just snipe at each other.

    Just on Tottenham for a moment, I was reading Mike Reid’s autobiography last week (why you might ask), and he describes growing up in Tottenham in the 1940′s and 50′s. He was actually caught up in two different bomb lasts during the Blitz, and his mother (holding him as a newborn baby in her arms) was wounded in one blast.
    The Tottenham he described as exploring as a young kid, with nanna’s and granddad’s just around the corner, and various aunties and uncles close by, and villians and scrapes with the law, Tedy Boys, local pubs and greeay spoon cafes.

    He moved away at about 20 years old, and never went back for years, but then did move back there 20 years later. He said that although there wasn’t a racist bone in his body, the area had changed incredibly.
    From when he was at school where there were only a few black kids about, 20 years later it seemed that it was predominately black kids.
    So what you may ask. And that’s a fair point to make. (And one that I hopefully make myself).

    But really, that should be just the beginning of a discussion. (For example, and here’s just one stastic that I’m pretty sure is correct).
    In 2007 27 London teenagers where killed in violence in the capital.
    Of these, the greater number were of ethnic minorities, and incredibly, nine of these, were boys of Congolese origin. Mostly having come to Britain as young children with their asylum seeking parents.

  32. Jai — on 30th May, 2009 at 6:45 pm  

    Damon,

    I understand your points, but the rationale you’ve given for people being “disgruntled” are practically identical to many of the arguments stated by Muslims who support Al-Muhajiroun, the Taliban or (in the most extreme cases) Al-Qaeda, or white Americans who support the KKK, or (many other people of Indian origin reading this would confirm this) Indian Hindus who support the RSS and other extreme Hindutva groups.

    All of these organisations have several things in common: They have a misplaced sense of intrinsic superiority, based on race or religion (or sometimes both). They view some or all groups from different backgrounds as being fundamentally inferior to them, to the extent of dehumanisation in the case of some specific “targets”. And they have a nostalgic view of some kind of semi-mythologised past where everything was much better, there were less or none of “the Other” around, and they wish to return their particular patch to this legendary past era, by whatever means necessary.

    Therefore, regardless of whether these “grievances” are legitimate or not, the ordinary people concerned have a simple moral and logical option: Either support other organisations which have a less sinister agenda, or (if they believe there is a lack of acceptable alternatives), refrain from supporting the aforementioned extremist groups, since they know full well what their real motivations are and what their end-game entails.

    As I said before, if a person supports the BNP, then as far as I’m concerned (and I’m sure many other non-white people would feel the same way) that puts them in the same camp as the kind of people that support the KKK, or any of those extremist Islamist and Hindutva groups I listed. It really is as straightforward as that.

    And as for the various concerns some Brits may have about “changing times” and the impact of migration etc, this is a global issue in many parts of the world, in many countries this is absolutely nothing new (it goes back centuries at the very least), and I have no problem with anyone discussing the matter as long as they are not driven by racism and most of all as long as they do not support the BNP under any circumstances.

    Because if they “cross that line”, then that puts them in the same camp as those good ol’ boys with a fondness for wearing pointed white hoods and pyromaniac tendencies towards large crucifixes, or certain bearded music-banning faux-religious types with a hatred of “the infidel” and an unhealthy fixation with subjugating women.

    If not, then the door to dialogue and peaceful coexistence is still open. Otherwise they’ve crossed the Rubicon and nobody should give a damn about listening to their “concerns” (legitimate or not) or “giving them a fair hearing” — again, no more than you would listen to supporters of the KKK, the Taliban, or Al-Muhajiroun.

  33. Shamit — on 30th May, 2009 at 7:11 pm  

    Jai

    Hello mate – thanks for the tip about Bert/Isaac — I will check it out.

    But I am surprised that they would keep on using that tactics considering the way he gets his ass whopped everytime he writes one line. Or may be in their “superior brains” may be they think one way of winning
    votes is losing arguments to seemingly “inferior” races.

    Who would have thought that?

    **************

    Rumbold

    Thanks mate.

    I would give it a shot but not promising anything as I am seriously pressed for time currently.

    But would seriously try.
    **************************

  34. Jai — on 30th May, 2009 at 7:36 pm  

    Modification to my post #32:

    All of these organisations have several things in common:

    Two more, in addition to the areas I listed previously (as before, these apply to the BNP too):

    - They claim to represent and speak for the “silent majority” of people ostensibly from the same background as them.
    - They deliberately exploit the concerns, fears, prejudices and grievances of the people they claim to represent, in order to secure their support and thereby further their own cause.

  35. Jai — on 30th May, 2009 at 8:06 pm  

    Shamit,

    But I am surprised that they would keep on using that tactics considering the way he gets his ass whopped everytime he writes one line.

    They’re probably not used to dealing with people who have the historical and/or medical knowledge to be able to effectively highlight the flaws in their arguments.

    (Regarding the latter, this is probably why Bert/Isaac clearly dislikes doctors — it’s because they have the scientific understanding to be able to credibly call bullshit in response to his “knowledge” of genetics and anthropology).

    I expect they also underestimate how smart and tough their adversaries are, since the attempts to intellectually intimidate and generally bully people into submission here obviously failed disastrously.

    However, it’s also worth bearing in mind that people without the necessary knowledge would be vulnerable to Isaac/Bert/the BNP’s pontifications on racial and historical matters, especially if they are already predisposed to racial prejudice and particularly because of the pseudo-scientific, pseudo-intellectual “academic” manner in which the so-called “facts” are presented to them.

    If someone claims to speak as the “voice of authority” and twists a lot of information (and selectively & deliberately omits other critical information which would undermine their agenda) while throwing a lot of highbrow-sounding long words around, unfortunately there are always going to be people who fall for that kind of propaganda.

    He’s been a very busy boy, though, as Google reveals. This is clearly a full-time obsession for him.

  36. Adnan — on 30th May, 2009 at 9:14 pm  

    Jai (great posting as per usual).

    Is Bert really Isaac? Bert came across a reasonably polite individual (but dodged argument with his “Vulcan” answers), Isaac really does believe his “talking to 15 year olds” argument he used with you and Ravi. Even though Isaac appeared as soon as Bert left, why wouldn’t Bert foam-at-the-mouth as Bert ?

    Your point about the voice of authority is spot on. I find it hard to argue against the wheel-out-the-academic argument even though the results are intuitively wrong, I haven’t got time to invest in looking at the Bell Curve stuff in detail. It’s excellent to see that people like you and Ravi have done the work already. After what Ravi mentioned about Isaac, I’m guessing that the pro-racist Bell Curve arguments are packaged up in a nice usable form for Stormfront users.

  37. Jai — on 31st May, 2009 at 12:54 pm  

    Adnan,

    Thanks for your kind words, mate.

    Even though Isaac appeared as soon as Bert left, why wouldn’t Bert foam-at-the-mouth as Bert ?

    Maybe because it would have resulted in the same response that he later received as “Isaac”.

    It might also be worthwhile considering that he was a little upset at what ultimately happened when he visited PP in his previous incarnation, and therefore decided to show his true colours under a different username.

    Also, people sometimes post on websites under different aliases for various nefarious reasons, some of which involve sockpuppeting and putting on different “online personas”.

    Is Bert really Isaac?

    I wouldn’t be suprised. The writing styles (especially when various so-called “facts” are being presented) are practically identical. And Bert was already sounding off about his low opinion of medical doctors’ level of intelligence and qualifications to understand/discuss anything science-related way back in November last year, something he very recently re-iterated in his “Isaac” persona.

    Regarding the “voice of authority” issue, well that’s the major problem as I said earlier — because there will be some people out there who will be overly impressed (even awestruck) by the “academic expert” mask he puts on and will therefore defer to his non-existent “superior understanding” of the racial, medical and historical areas he sounds off about, especially if he’s telling them exactly what they want to hear and if (for whatever reason) they’re not in a position to be able to contradict his assertions.

    “Fake scholars” and a susceptible audience consisting of a suitably gullible band of followers is nothing new in the world, of course, whether it’s involved science or religion or anything else.

  38. damon — on 31st May, 2009 at 8:18 pm  

    Jai, that reply of yours was interesting and I agree with much of it.

    This last two weekends I’ve been showing a student from India around parts of London by car, and this afternoon we drove from south west london, through the center, and out to East Ham and up Green Street (which was packed out and traffic congested).
    She was really surprised at how it was. In fact the ethnic diversity is one thing that is so different to how she imagined London would be.
    We’ve also been in Brixton, Camberwell, Peckham, Deptford, Hackney, Islington as well as the likes of the Kings Road, South Kensington and Central London.

    Green Street was buzzing this afternoon, and the traffic chaos was (I think) caused by really badly parked cars that belonged to people at a wedding or religious festival. Being from ”Mumbai society” she thought East Ham was pretty tacky, while I was telling her it’s one of my favourite neighborhoods.

    I can understand that East Ham is not for everyone.
    I don’t think my mother (for example) would feel at home living there. (Though I could be wrong about that).

  39. Jai — on 1st June, 2009 at 9:35 am  

    Damon,

    Assuming that the following weren’t already included in your itinerary yesterday, you should probably take your friend around Ealing Road in Wembley and Southall Broadway in, er, Southall too. The former has a famous restaurant called “Sakonis” which is pretty similar to the kind of fast-food joints prevalent in major Indian cities like Mumbai; sights in Southall to check out include the newish big Sikh temple, along with a fairly high-class Punjabi restaurant called “Madhoos” (or is it called “Brilliant” now ? Best to double-check) which is regarded has having the best Punjabi cuisine in the whole of the UK. If she’s into that kind of food then “Lahore Karahi” on Southall Broadway is also excellent, and is one of the more stylish and efficiently-run places to eat (as opposed to your usual garden-variety curry house — the waiters actually use electronic notebooks to take your order !) but still reasonably affordable.

    Of course, if you’ve got a bit of spare cash to throw around then I’m assuming you’re familiar with “Bombay Brasserie”, “Veeraswamy”, “Red Fort”, “Cafe Lazeez”, “Malabar Junction” etc, along with the newer ‘fusion’ places like “Masala Zone”.

    If your friend is from the posher Mumbai backgrounds then she’ll probably also appreciate visiting Stanmore and parts of Harrow, both of which obviously have more affluent British Indian neighbourhoods. I expect she’d like Kensington, Chelsea, parts of Pimlico etc too, as Mumbai has similar counterparts for the really loaded locals.

  40. damon — on 1st June, 2009 at 10:41 am  

    Jai – I have asked my housemate (who is a Sikh guy) to take this young Indian woman (who he’s never actually met yet) to Southall with him when he goes over there one sunday (as he often does).

    All those places you mentioned (in Southall) I have no clue about.
    I’m sure they are really hip places to see and visit.

    But just like ”Essex Girls” get sterotyped (unfairly) in the wider culture, yesterday we saw some ”East Ham boys” (young Asian guys at a wedding, sitting in a couple of flash 4×4 cars).
    The suits, the hair gell, the US Marine Corps style shaved heads with little ponytails sticking out the top.

    She got it quite quickly. They were young ”Asian chavs” (who probably had baseball bats or hockey sticks in the boot of their cars)

    North West London is a bit off our radar at the moment, as she needs to be near her college in Tooting (in south west Londion).

    She does like Chelsea and South Kensington though.
    Battersea, Clapham and (even) Balham too.
    Deptford not so much.
    (Nor East Ham or Tooting).

  41. Jai — on 1st June, 2009 at 11:19 am  

    Damon,

    All those places you mentioned (in Southall) I have no clue about.
    I’m sure they are really hip places to see and visit.

    Just in case there was any confusion, the following….

    Of course, if you’ve got a bit of spare cash to throw around then I’m assuming you’re familiar with “Bombay Brasserie”, “Veeraswamy”, “Red Fort”, “Cafe Lazeez”, “Malabar Junction” etc, along with the newer ‘fusion’ places like “Masala Zone”.

    …..are in central London, not Southall.

  42. damon — on 1st June, 2009 at 11:53 am  

    I thought better of talking about this.

  43. Ravi Naik — on 1st June, 2009 at 12:02 pm  

    She does like Chelsea and South Kensington though. Battersea, Clapham and (even) Balham too.
    Deptford not so much.
    (Nor East Ham or Tooting).

    Something I really enjoyed (specially on a sunny day) is walking around the London canals, which can take you from Camden market to Little Venice – passing through Regent’s Park among other places, highly recommended if your friend gets tired of the Asian tour in Britain. :)

    Another thing I do with my friends who come to Britain for the first time is take them to pubs to get a taste of British food and lager. If your friend likes shopping (and women do not need actually need to buy anything to perform that activity), then Knightsbridge and Sloane Square (Kings Road) are definitely worth a visit.

    On the cultural side, I would highly recommend Southbank. Lots of cafes, live music and entertainment. My favourite museum Tate Modern is just there, and is also worth a visit.

  44. Ravi Naik — on 1st June, 2009 at 12:20 pm  

    I haven’t got time to invest in looking at the Bell Curve stuff in detail. It’s excellent to see that people like you and Ravi have done the work already. After what Ravi mentioned about Isaac, I’m guessing that the pro-racist Bell Curve arguments are packaged up in a nice usable form for Stormfront users.

    I do not believe that Isaac is Bert – I have discussed with Bert on a number of occasions, and I am not sure why he would dumb down several notches and make a caricature of a BNP-supporting racist as Isaac Brown did, specially if Bert supports the BNP.

    Stormfront does have a manual called “The complete History of Whites”, or something like that. The basic premise is that Whites created everything in this Earth, non-whites are parasites of that knowledge, and that miscegenation (aryans with darkies) lead to destruction of all great civilisations (Roman, Egyptian, Indian, Portuguese, etc.). Isaac Brown was just rehashing from that manual. Needless to say, it is a complete fabrication, that caters those with no education, and serve to fit their supremacist narrative.

  45. chavscum — on 1st June, 2009 at 2:50 pm  

    I take it the above series of posts suggesting visiting Asians should sample the various segregated Asian areas in London is a wind-up.

    If not, just replace, Asians with Brits and London with Spain. Smell the hypocrisy.

  46. Jai — on 1st June, 2009 at 4:29 pm  

    Ravi,

    I am not sure why he would dumb down several notches and make a caricature of a BNP-supporting racist as Isaac Brown did, specially if Bert supports the BNP.

    Well, I gave a few suggestions earlier. Beyond that, who knows what goes on inside the feverish, delusional minds of psychopathic racists with that kind of monomaniacal obsession ?

    Speaking of which…..

    Stormfront does have a manual called “The complete History of Whites”, or something like that. The basic premise is that Whites created everything in this Earth, non-whites are parasites of that knowledge, and that miscegenation (aryans with darkies) lead to destruction of all great civilisations (Roman, Egyptian, Indian, Portuguese, etc.). Isaac Brown was just rehashing from that manual. Needless to say, it is a complete fabrication, that caters those with no education, and serve to fit their supremacist narrative.

    Creepy people, and more than a little sad. And by “sad”, I mean “pathetic”.

  47. Jai — on 1st June, 2009 at 5:17 pm  

    I take it the above series of posts suggesting visiting Asians should sample the various segregated Asian areas in London is a wind-up.

    Yes it’s a wind-up. Just like the BNP’s hilarious notions about “racial superiority”, “racial purity” and “the indigenous British race”. Who would be stupid enough to actually believe that Nick Griffin’s “mad mullah” act isn’t a huge practical joke on knuckle-dragging idiots thick enough to fall for the deliberately ignorant, misinformed ideas he’s promoting, even though it’s obvious that he’s having a laugh at their expense ?

    Surely no-one is gullible enough to think that the British Taliban Party, Mr Griffin’s cheeky little homage to those pleasant bearded AK47-toting chaps in Afghanistan and Pakistan’s Swat Valley, is the genuine article ? Doesn’t anyone remember that comedy masterpiece Blackadder, full of ironic stunts pulled by the mischievous Edmund ?

    Gosh…..

    If not, just replace, Asians with Brits and London with Spain. Smell the hypocrisy.

    There is indeed some hypocrisy, but not in the way that is being implied above and not from the direction that the finger is being pointed at either.

    And oh, by the way, you have to smile at the usage of the term “Brits” to automatically mean “white British”, thereby implying that British Asians (by birth or by citizenship) aren’t actually British.

    As for the following earlier post #27 directed at Shamit by Mr Chavscum Esq, clearly not an intellectual titan that Stephen Hawking needs to lose any sleep over:

    Give us your evidence of Australia being “institutionally racist”. Failing that, give us your own criteria for a country to be “institutionally racist”. Then, name a majority non-white country that you believe not to be institutionally racist.

    After the indignant response to the suggestion that white-majority Australia has a serious and widespread problem with racism towards non-white people, coupled with the implicit denial of the problem, that’s a pretty transparent attempt to turn the tables by subsequently implying that (unlike Australia) every single majority non-white country in the planet does have a problem with institutional racism.

    3/10. Must Try Harder.

  48. Don — on 1st June, 2009 at 5:31 pm  

    Touching obliquely on ‘…History of Whites’, is anybody following ‘The Incredible Human Journey’ on BBC 2? Fascinating stuff, although some of the points made seem to be more reputable working hypothesis rather than fully accepted by the mainstream. (And acknowledged as such, so fair enough.)

  49. Jai — on 2nd June, 2009 at 9:12 am  

    Don,

    I’ve been watching it. Yep it’s excellent stuff, very informative and engagingly presented by Dr Alice Roberts, who is obviously the Nigella Lawson of televised Paleoanthropology and Osteoarcheology.

    Her book (which has just come out) to supplement the series is also really good, and goes into a lot more detail about everything. It’s quite an academic tome but I think she’s tried to make the various concepts and terminology readable for the average layperson.

    I have noticed something, though. In both cases the focus on “the human story” is up to about 10,000 years ago; there doesn’t seem to be much on more recent migrations, including those concerning Indo-Iranians and Indo-Europeans, both of which heavily impacted the subcontinent’s population and also (linking this to your point about “…..History of Whites”) the background of Europeans, particularly those who ended up in Eastern and Southern Europe.

    I’m not sure why this was omitted (although Michael Woods’ BBC documentary series “The Story of India” about two years ago did go into considerable detail about it, especially the accompanying book), but Dr Roberts’ series is extremely educational anyway. She’s quite emphatic about repeatedly emphasising the fundamental unity of mankind too, which is obviously a good thing. Hopefully those who need to hear it will get the message. Based on her recent newspaper interviews she also clearly has a very dim view of people fixated on race and exaggerated notions of “differences”.

  50. damon — on 2nd June, 2009 at 10:13 am  

    @ 45 ”I take it the above series of posts suggesting visiting Asians should sample the various segregated Asian areas in London is a wind-up.”

    I wasn’t saying anything as a wind up, but I accept I might have been a bit crass by taking this woman to so many places, and seeing how she thought of places like East Ham and Camberwell.
    But it’s better to see the places where real Londoners actually live than only spend time in normal tourist places. Though we have been to Bourough Market and along that bit of the South Bank.
    (The Regents Canal is a good idea too).

    I only mentioned all this because of its relation to this thread and how people view our ever changing demography in a place like London.
    We also drove all the way around the Isle of Dogs, and I was trying to tell her of some of the issues and history of a place like that (down at the bottom end where its all council houses, and it was origionally all dockers living down there). How the BNP had won a council seat there 20 years ago, but now it seemed like people of Asian origin were very much in evidence.
    I found it interesting to see what a person totally new to the country though on seeing those everyday London neighbourhoods, where one minute it’s all very middle class people having sunday brunch at pavement cafes in Clapham and Battersea, and just down the road it’s grim council estates.

    When you see who are the kind of people who flock to Clapham Common to have picnicks and sit in the sun, you start to notice a race (and class) breakdown.
    Not many News of the World newspapers in evidence amongst the pavement diners and Clapham Common picnickers. It’s all Sunday Times and Observer people.

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