I go back to my original point. If Muslims are not a community then why is it my job to go around doing anything at all with HT?

You are basically asking for a free pass when religion and politics are mixed. This is combustible my friend.

Mix religion and politics and you cannot expect or ask for people to lay off when you put that mix into the public debate – not any more. It is the MAB and MCB and Islamists like them and partisans like yourself and Osama Saeed who do that in your politics – you cannot invoke respect and religious sensitivity when you bind them together and make them the mainstay of your politics – not now, not in 2006, not in the UK, not after 7/7 – no way. Sunny gave some comparisons and they refute what you say about people picking on Islam out of some irrationalism.

Whenever religion and politics combine you have to get a thick skin if you are the one that accepts as a fait accompli that they are one and the same.

It is because the organisations that put Islam out there as a sectarian cause and seek to privelige it and its discourse over all others that it gets this attention – unlike any other religion or social group in the whole UK. That individual Muslims get their feelings hurt in the intellectual crossfire is sad but cannot be used a reason for people not to engage and criticise, especially given the arrogance of organisations like the MAB who in the aftermath of the suicide bombings in London sought to seek leverage and made wicked and truly sinister linkages of cause and effect between Iraq and Palestine and the terrorist slaughter.

As Sunny has said, that is an obscenity and organisations that deal in religious politics of this kind cannot expect to be treated with respect (which really means ‘dont criticise us or we’ll get more alienated etc etc etc) but should come out in the open and get ready to debate and justify now in the full light of day – without invoking the rascals excuse of strengthening the big Muslim persecution complex. Keep your religion out of politics and you won’t get criticised – simple as that. Sorry.

When Sikhs were using their religion to engage in terrorist activities, they were castigated in India. When Hindus went on a rampage against Muslims in India then there was plenty of condemnation of that community – the loudest of which came from the Hindu-Indian community itself. In fact if it wasn’t for the newspapers in India who reported on and gathered evidence on the massacres, the VHP would have walked away scot-free.

So try and have some perspective sometimes, it would be nice. When people use their religion to kill innocent people, then that religion will be blamed. Rather than hating others for blaming the religion, maybe you should spend more time fighting Muslims who use their religion for war instead of peace.

Yes, totally agreed, and this is what annoys me about not only the HuT types, but some of the anti-war types too. I was vehementaly anti-war, and still am. But I don’t equate that to blowing up myself in London and taking innocent people with me.

When people justify the terrorist bombings in London with the Iraq war, they’re using a deceitful way of justifying one murder with another. It would be like how the Gujarat massacres in India were supposedly justified by the burning of the train in Godhra.

The MAB types also play this deceitful game of playing up the victim mentality so Muslims can be pushed into supporting an agenda. You hate the Iraq war? Fine, so do I. But don’t tryt and compare it the London bombings.

Muslims being played for fools and those useful idiots who feed their intellect where each day is an April Fools day, will be challenged, but with a confidence that is not yet there.

That confidence will come by openly challenging bigots from within the community and seeking to build bridges with others. Unless we are open to other people’s criticisms and ideas, then we remain without confidence. Calling everyone ‘Islamophobic’ does not help any debate.

Sajn:
. The guy is and always has been regarded as a joke within the wider Muslim community.
I have no doubt about that. In fact even HuT are ignored in most of the Muslim debates/meetings I’ve been at. But there is a difference between ignoring them and actually taking them on and openly cutting them down to size. That does not happen with HuT. That is my point.

Osama:
But from what I’ve seen from afar, HT have changed. I know there will be sneering from Harry’s Place and the like on this one, but they are a radically different organisation from 10 years ago

You seem to be changing your argument with every post. First it was that there was no evidence of people of people being told off for raising their voice. Then it was that you had been fighting HuT… and now you’re saying they’ve become nice guys.

Maybe you’re agreeing with my previous sentiment that soon HuT will have fluffy bunnies and rainbows on their website.

Unfortunately I’m not sure I believe it. They have changed their public image, but around the world their supporters keep getting caught for distributing racist and bigoted literature against “non-believers”.

The Shabina Begum discussion was a great example. I laughed when they were castigating the British for ‘freedom of expression’ when it was not about that issue and they don’t believe in it themselves!

I’m not doubting they are different to when Omar Bakri was head honcho, but until very recently they had documents on their websites asking for Jews to be killed, urging brothers to fight in Iraq and all sorts of other “non-violent” activities. So why exactly should I believe you they’re suddenly like the CND?

hmm….reminds me

http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?aid=102

“Most people think that Hizb-ut-Tahrir is an MI5 creation,” she (Salma Yaqoob) adds.

That would be one way of destroying their credibility. Though in terms of conspiracy thoeries that would be as nutty as suggesting MPACuk are a Mossad run zionist propaganda machine. They should be dissembled with arguments and their full agenda exposed, as Sunny has done recently.

With regards to involvement in universities, hizb are active operating under various pseudonyms. The NUS ban is simply not worth the paper it is written on. Freedom of speech does override any objections based simply on grounds detesting the organisation for their racism etc. It is effective against the BNP where a proposed meeting would have the strong likelihood of public disorder. Outside the blogosphere most people are unaware of who the hizb are and so such a situation would not arise.

I hope I don’t underplay them. Nor should we overdo it.

I would like to see more about the roots of the problem and frankly speaking it goes quite a way back.

There is a view that HuT are a tool of some agency. Similarly there have been similar nods and winks to others.

My despair comes from the complete failure of muslims to have an independent view and not led by some deceitful force playing on natural sympathies and inherent desire for justice. I’ve said elsewhere, they are drifting and long way from home.

I recall one of the US secretary’s of state (long before any 911), I think Caspar Weinberger, who was more than happy that muslim’s ‘should have more sharia’.

Why?

There is also the view that the Soviet Union could have been brought down by ‘stirring’ up the soviet muslims against the state. There are other things that need to be understood.

Muslims being played for fools and those useful idiots who feed their intellect where each day is an April Fools day, will be challenged, but with a confidence that is not yet there.

Refresh – sometimes I feel a bit sad that you play down the problems of inter-faith dialogue in our community so much.

I watched Hizb and Al Muhajiroun throughout uni trying to not only split Asian students as friends, but also divide Muslims into groups so they could pretend to be their friends.

You’re dismissing them as a small issue, but here we have Fosis, who are friends with Osama Saeed’s MAB trying to get them back on campus. Do these people never learn?
http://education.guardian.co.uk/students/politics/story/0,,1745990,00.html

Osama says he has opposed them since about 10-15 years. Maybe he could tell us why they’re such best friends now.

When people like Al-M circulate leaflets calling for Muslim boys to convert Sikh and Hindu girls in return for money, then you know there is a wider problem than just blowing up people.

Word of advice David T – most of us are fully aware writing anything about muslims will generate traffic, easy pickings. And as usual people pick their ‘blogs’ by virtue of their prejudices, as we do with newspapers. The measure of it is more the followers you have, I would be most unhappy to see PP dragged to that level.

Sunny, sorry it had to be said. Genuine debate is where it has to go.