I live in Kent, and so I witnessed at first hand some of the “interchanges” between the police and the miners and their families. I have to say it was a shock to me. British police harrassing people at 2:00 and 3:00 am by driving round the pit villages making as much noise as they could to deprive people of sleep. British police operating a roadblock in and out of towns. British police stopping and searching anyone that they damn well pleased, with no-one to stop or criticise them. British police turning over vans bringing much needed food, clothing and succour to miners and their families. This was pure politicisation of the police. After all they weren’t just stopping people from creating a hazrd or nuisance (at 2:00 in the morning when they were asleep?) and they certainly weren’t defending the rights or safety of other people, so this was political and not civic activity. This much lauded “victory” by Thatcher and her Government, and by the right wing press, spelled the end of mass union membership, the end of social conscience and cohesion, and the beginning of dog eating dog as being seen not only as OK but as something to be encouraged.

This Trades Union demise meant the end of any organised fight for justice by ordinary working women and men. It meant the end of jobs that were involving and interesting. It meant the end of any stability as more and more jobs became temporary contracts. it meant that people were back on the market as commodities with the new TUPE laws where it was “go over” or “go away”. Seeing this newly defeated and deflated population the Thatcher Government tightened up the already shackling trade union laws, threw in a hefty sprinkling of unemployment, and the British workforce were tamed forever.

I, like many others can remember the delight in 1997 when the Labour Party was re-elected back into power after many years in the wilderness. That delight didn’t really last that long. At first I thought, “well, they have to remain pretty much in control because the country has a lot to recover from”. I was a little miffed that they did not repeal the anti trades union laws but hey things would be Ok now, wouldn’t they?

Since that day I have witnessed a “Labour” Government that has become more controlling, more sleazy, more hierarchical, more imposing, and more downright frightening than any Government that I have ever lived under. The most worrying thing about this trend is that we, the general public, are absolutely powerless to extracate ourselves from under this obese, fat laden “democracy”. Why? Because if we protest we have to get written permission to do so or face arrest. We are only allowed to protest in certain places and not others because we have to be kept away from those making the laws in case we offend them. We have to seek permission to go on strike otherwise we are taken to court or dismissed for breach of contract. So why don’t we just ignore these Draconian laws and protest any way? Take a look at the G20 videos, the Kingsnorth videos and you will see why. Because the State are protected by politicised thugs or as they are officially known the Police.

The one thing we do have, although the Government is looking to record every mobile, e-mail and blog, is the ability to publish how we are feeling on sites like this. But how long before sites like this are considered too sedicious and are closed down. Too far fetched? Watch this space.

I know people who were part of The Wombles back in the day. I disagreed with their focus on Police tactics then and said so at the time.

I also can see that Ghandi tactics work. People do have to push and choose to gravitate onto the other side of the law and climate camp do it very well. The Spiked article is great, thanks for linking. The guy is right. I was watching BBC News 24 on the frontline and you could see how small it actually was. He interviewed someone who was very confident about Police tactics, that they had “brought it on themselves”, then when he was asked why he was protesting he started showing the usual confusion at the frontal lobes.

I think it is difficult for people who want change in this society to envision it happening. Left wing Politics is full of people fighting over no power whatsoever, I am fucking glad that is finally imploding properly. Protest politics by its nature is going to attract widely different people some of whom are right, but unfocused.

Whether you agree of disagree with G20 protests or Stonehenge they are going to happen. King Arthur pendragon was in and out of Wiltshire police cells for 14 years. He now sits in a room with the other side. Its not ideal, we want a free festival at the Stones but the doco is so obviously right in its conclusions.

G20 protest reps who are peaceful could become a conduit to address bad Policing and bad protesting, without them being responsible for anything ways of keeping things fluffy could be addressed.

Policewise I am glad this is happening but sorry about the circumstances obviously. They have been going over the top doing whatever they like for a long time. The guy on Sheepdogs and Wolves is still casualy talking about leaving his epaulettes behind “because he has a few uniforms”. This is not acceptable. How do you identify Police officers? They need a shake up. The TSG need talking to.

Having said that, I can totally understand that they have been institutionalised and I would still also say that they are probably the best Police force of any large nation in the world.

I’m afraid I was more inclined to agree with that Spiked-online lot (who seem to be unpopular on this forum), who said of the protests on wednesday:

”A caricature of a riot
Yesterday’s protest of poseurs against bankers confirmed that anti-capitalism itself has become an empty brand, like KFC or FCUK.”
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6422/

And I’ve got nothing agaist ”crusties” or anarchists or anyone, but one thing I do like about the climate camp people is that, while I might not agree with their politics and ”direct action” – at least they seem to be coming from a ‘Gandhi’ style peace and non-violence point of view.
Not that I’m completely against the idea of using ”revolutionary violence” – now is just not the time as we are not in some pre- revolutionary situation (and probably never will be in our lifetimes) – so in the meantime .. let’s be into non-violence instead.

Have no idea why your comments keep getting classes as spam – it might be some anti-virus software you use. That has happened to us before. Sorry about that.

By and large the Police force attracts a lot of people who are seriously conformists. Any job which provides a life in such a uniform will do. I will apologise to Constableconfused in advance, but to be honest I just think the Police force attracts a lot of the sort of kids in school who tell on people. that is certainly what I have seen in the FIT squad.

I have also seen Police after they have been out all night coming the streets of Catford and Lewisham looking for a friend of mine who was in serious mental distress. I was bloody glad they were there and they left without waiting for me to thank them or saying good bye.

Have you seen the Stonehenge doco I have been linking to here? It is bloody fantastic in how it addresses the difference between them and us, order and chaos. It is seriously amazing and even though it is hilarous it is a great study of conflict resolution.

I don’t believe anybody genuinely wants to kill other people, given any other option to feel that their views are heard and that they matter and have worth as a person.

I wish that were true, but history tells us otherwise.

You are the bloke from the modern parents in Viz, and I claim my £5.

Sorry if I’ve missed it – but has Constableconfused said anything worthy of merit yet?
About (for example) the way the police attacked the climate camp on wednesday night?
I support the police most of the time – but when they tool up for things like G20, they have a tendency to get into a ‘robocop’ state of mind.
I still blame the ”anarchists” and those people who show up on these demonstrations and who want to make the protest about smashing windows and squaring up to the police. They are childish and really annoying … but I wish we had a police force that might see through that stupid idiot ”Ian Bone” (of Class War) nonsense – and not treat eveybody like they were like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Bone

What about if you disagree with someone’s view — does that give them the right to kill you? In today’s Taliban style atrocities I don’t think your above assessment is apt.

However, I do tend to agree with you that should a person be educated and empowered and exposed to different view points — then the chances of them becoming terrorists do reduce.

However, 9/11 perpetrators or the murderers of Daniel Pearl or those who killed the missionaries in Orissa were all educated and had developed a distorted world view.

On your overarching point of Britain is responsible for all ill — I disagree. Our colonies have been independent for over 3 decades — and many for over 50 years. In these past decades and especially in the last decade or so, Britain has been the leading donor and proactive development partners in most of those countries and to good effect. Be it in education, infrastructure or health care or pure aid to help feed people we have done more good than bad.

No country’s foreign policy or for that matter any policy is 100% correct — and I would be the first one to say we have made some serious mistakes –but to say that we are paying for our mistakes is flawed. By the way, I still believe the Iraq war’s cause was just but the execution was poor- and it was the wrong war at the wrong time.

Let us take the example of Pakistan — it has received a lot of aid and support from both US and UK and others over the past 50 years — but it has failed to move forward with land reform, better governance and education, health care and a cleaner politics — or create any opportunities. How is it Britain’s fault or should we go and bang heads together — I know you don’t agree with that.

Political extremism with objectives is very different from the religious extremism that is so prevalent nowadays. And to blame that on Britain is simplistic to say the least and grossly unfair too.

Dave S — quick question — do you agree with the police action yesterday when they took 12 men in custody — who were apparently engaged in conspiracy to commit acts of terror in the United Kingdom. or were they being too harsh by taking guns to arrest people.

I don’t think it makes any sense for me to attempt to answer that question without placing it in the wider context of asking why people want to commit terrorist acts in the UK in the first place.

Britain has a long history of colonising other countries and taking all we can, before running off and foisting a completely alien and unsuitable political system on those countries. It is an extreme act of arrogance, based upon the imperialist belief that “our” system is the best, and should be imposed worldwide.

So to take your question in the shallowest possible way, of course I don’t believe that anybody should commit acts of terrorism.

I don’t believe anybody genuinely wants to kill other people, given any other option to feel that their views are heard and that they matter and have worth as a person.

If everybody was secure in the knowledge that they mattered as a human being, then I am confident we would all realise that all people matter in their own right as a human being, and that the idea of killing one another for any reason whatsoever would seem utterly absurd.

If you want to eliminate terrorism, then address the causes behind it. It is easy to radicalise somebody who believes that they are worthless, and that they will never even have a voice with which to protest about that.

But the police arresting people under suspicion of plotting “terrorism” while foreign policy remains largely unchanged, from a country like the UK which basically stole most of it’s wealth from all over the world, leaving death, destruction and poverty in it’s wake!?

Is it any wonder people want to commit terrorist acts here? No, it’s not surprising in the slightest.

We could end terrorism today if we’d stop being so arrogant about it, and admit that we have an exceptionally large hand in ownership of the responsibility for it.

The British state didn’t quite invent fascism, but we very nearly perfected it on a worldwide scale, and are still reaping the “rewards” of that today.

If you want to know why we have a terrorist problem in the UK, then you need to ask that question in a much deeper context, rather than in isolation as if it’s something which “just happens” on it’s own, because it doesn’t.

The problem does not exist in isolation, and neither does the solution.

The police are not a solution to terrorism. They aren’t even a very good sticking plaster over it.

They are a solution looking for a problem which would never have even existed in the first place had our ancestors an ounce of sense or compassion in their view of the world, or their treatment of it’s people.

As it is now, we can fix this problem, but we pretty much need to rebuild our house from the foundations, rather than just painting over the cracks.

That will begin to happen once we acknowledge that terrorism doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

Edit: Apologies for repeating myself too much, it’s just how my brain works sometimes!

I am an anarchist – a “libertarian socialist” or “libertarian communist” if you really really must, though again I believe that any sort of label reduces a complex organism such as a person to a simple category which doesn’t do anybody any justice. My politics are a lot more complex than just “anarchy” or “libertarian socialism” (I have a green streak every bit as wide as my anarchist and socialist tendencies), which is why I don’t believe in political parties or “representatives”, because the only person capable of representing my interests is myself.

I am simply me. I have an inherent sense of natural justice (and injustice), I don’t like being told what to do, or how I “must” live my life, and I’m not such an arsehole that I just think I can do whatever I like without considering wider society. I believe this is the most rational position possible, and also the most peaceful, gentle and ecologically sustainable one.

I believe that government is both unnecessary and undesirable, and that humanity can unite to create a world which is fair to everyone, in which everybody has control over their own lives and in which peace and the permanent sustainability of society over many millennia are very achievable realities.

There probably isn’t time to go into it now, but I’m certain that together, humanity can find a solution to anything you can think of which would stand in the way of that becoming our reality.

So in light of all this, I regard all implementations of “the state” as an oppressive and undesirable force, practically by definition of what it means to be contained within national borders.

National borders serve no purpose other than to prevent the movement of ordinary people, who should be free to go wherever they see fit on the planet we belong to.

Therefore “the state” in all it’s incarnations, stands against just about everything I believe in.

I would never dream of speaking for other anarchists, but I think you would find that views like mine are at the core of what most (if not all) anarchists stand for.

I actually don’t know too much about Enoch Powell, other than I don’t believe we share many views. Many conservatives (small “c”) dislike big government, but that doesn’t mean I have anything else in common with them.

You can call me a dreamer or an idealist or whatever you like, and I’d gladly agree with you! What is the point of life, if one cannot be free to dream and to aim for one’s ideals of how the world ought to be?

As Oscar Wilde said in one of my favourite quotes: “A map of the world without utopia on it is not worth looking at.”

Now Delboy – Dave S — quick question — do you agree with the police action yesterday when they took 12 men in custody — who were apparently engaged in conspiracy to commit acts of terror in the United Kingdom. or were they being too harsh by taking guns to arrest people.

A senior Home Office civil servant off the record told us ie eGov monitor– that they were extremely nervous about the protests especially the security services both here and in the States had credible threats that terrorists could infiltrate the protests and cause serious havoc in London.

With G20 heads of states and Government along with their cabinet ministers and central bank heads in London — the police had every reason in the book to localise the protests. If they did not and something went wrong I bet people here and elsewhere would want the Home Secretary, the Met Police Chief and other heads to roll and for good reason.

But that does not excuse the behaviour of police against the gentleman who died — but accusing the British State to be fascists is going a bit too far.

Also Delboy — you going around blogs and calling British troops murderers is just complete crap. I do not have any sympathy or patience with that kind of attitude.

Like Enoch Powell before you, you seem to be being driven over the edge by the remorselessness of your own logic.

He was. I thought Rumbold had fixed it and the fact that his messages are appearing would make me think he has.

And look out for the link within this link from a young A-level student called Maya Oppenheim, who says she was hit on the head with a baton and then kicked by a policeman at the climate camp in Bishopsgate.

I feel like I’d like to be handing out leaflets in the City of London this afternoon, highlighting these issues and pointing people towards some of the coverage on YouTube about events on wednesday (particularly Bishopsgate late in the evening).