I don’t have much on the HT in Bangladesh. But I have heard from many that in expensive and Westernized Edu institutions like North Soth University and even in the top technical University BUET, HT is making a mark. They are saying that students clad in western Hip-hop cloths with their elite Westernized surroundings are slowly blending into radical thoughts of HT. Its very interesting but without much info it would be wrong if we want to draw a conclusion.

Tanvir, I don’t know if you’re a relatively new arrival to PP, but — in case you are — let me state yet again that “Jai” and “Jay Singh” are 2 separate people.

Also, I do not think my namesake is “ranting” and I agree with the various points he has made.

I’m not going to comment on Bangladeshi politics but HuT certainly will not be coming to power here in the West, including the UK. There is no way in hell any non-Muslims here, especially the indigenous population, would ever allow that to happen. People are not interested in living under any kind of theocratic system of government, especially Islam. As I’ve mentioned in another thread, to do so would be regarded as a serious step backwards by the majority population here.

I can see people cutting Islam some slack during pre-9/11 times, but every time something like 7/7 occurs, or people from various Islamic groups are seen protesting and demanding “behead those who insult Islam” or chanting “7/7 on its way”, or yet another group of suspects goes on trial for plots to bomb civilian targets in the UK…..well, it’s yet another nail in the coffin of orthodox Islam’s credibility in the eyes of the majority population here.

Islamic rule in the UK ? It’ll never happen, and believe me people will fight to the end to prevent this from occurring.

The continued efforts by HuT and its affiliates to promote the concept of “Islam is the Solution”, despite the fact that most people here are just not interested, is like a sex pest constantly, repeatedly harassing a woman regardless of how many times she rejects him. Often, “No means No. End of discussion.”

Tanvir – this is a bizarre argument. Even you said you don’t know enough about HuT in BD, and I admit I don’t either. So why exactly are we getting obsessed about HuT in BD?

Look. No one has ever said democracy is perfect and that it makes everyone happy. But its a system that has one quality more than anything to survive – it is a constantly changing and evolving system. Without that, any system becomes stagnant and falls apart.

A majority rules situation would apply to any country, even BD. Say if the Hindus don’t want HuT to turn it into their Khalifah in BD. Would HuT then not bother? Rubbish, they’re as power hungry and idealist as the next man.

HuT remind me of communists. I used to call myself one, but realised one thing very quickly. Any pre-planned system that has not actually worked in practice will never actually work in practice. In theory even I can come up with a political and economic system. But in reality that shit don’t work. Maybe one day it’ll come to you. Maybe not.
Either way, most HuT members in the UK are delusional fools who reckon they’re intelligent because they can string a sentence together. They want tolerance, but never practice it.

Now, your favourite part of my last post, “the submission to the ‘democratic/capitalism submission’ framework? is a given.” Not just by myself, but just about everyone. I personally know two former head of states of Bangladesh, both leaders of their individual political parties at the moment. I dont think even either of those gentlemen would argue such a issue. Even current government Ministers have said, on the record about the ills of the the system. Anyway, thats not the point….you see your passion against Islam keeps taking over, and you loose concentration, we are talking about the HT organisation in Bangladesh, yet you go off on an Islamaphobic rant about submission etc etc, can you actually backit up with evidence on HT in Bangladesh? Your passion against Islam overlooked whole whole point of me asking the question……so here goes again, please pay attention:

Do you think HT is soooo good that 150million people will choose it as an alternative to the current system of governance?

Come on give us an answer, a yes or no will suffice. As I expect, you will answer without reading a single word about HT in Bangladesh, yet slate it. Its okay, though, the question was rhetorical.

So here goes, my actual views on the matter (all this time i had pretty much been playing devils advocate). HT coming to power in BD is not guna happen in the near future, although this is what they want. People in Bangladesh are too passionate about JP,AL and BNP -everyone seems to have some affiliation to one of them. Now what HT do preach is Islamic teachings on just about everything, whilst at the same time saying the government should follow and Islamic model. The spread of Islamic thinking on various social issues as well as morals will do the most corrupt nation in the world good i believe, and as this word spreads, and people are also enlightened on how their government sells them out, the masses will demand their government shape up. Nor will the masses continue buy the version of Islam peddled by the uneducated backward clerics – which again will bring social justice. The presence of HT will also keep the government on thier toes, and as better, modern Islamic thinking becomes more widespread the government may even implement some reforms.

Thats all I reckon is going to come of this.

Problem is (for some), those people who were only Muslim by name, may actually realise their religion has quite a lot of wisdom in it….and that is really burning you mate you give it away too easily, you need to step back and look at your bigotry and intolereance. I’m talking about HT in Dhaka, talking about social issues with uni students, and you are compring it to ‘prescribing the death penalty for those who convert elsewhere’ your comments are as ridiculous as for example: me cussing a Hindu for Sati when he tries to educate me on a few ethical principles. And its not about a chip on shoulder etc etc… its about an organisation that at face value is trying to do something good -UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE, something that Bangladesh needs, yet HT in Bd is accused of the very thing they seem to be trying to tackle – backward interpretation of religion and extreamism.

Err no. I think you don’t understand democracy. In it, people are free to disagree and hold opposing views and practice different lifestyles that do not harm each other.

In a HuT world that is not the case. To assume that all Muslims think alike is pure bullshit. To assume also that Pizza HuT are simply helping build a world that everyone wants is also bullshit. Their representative claimed on PTV that she people should have freedom of expression on religion, but then had to admit they would not be extending that freedom to others in their own world! Hypocrites.

What you are missing is, dawah is itself is not intolerant…. it can be made out that way by those who hold a profound contempt to what is being said.

Translation: All those who consider prosletysing as intolerant in fact hold the truths of Islam in ‘profound contempt’ – ie: those who disagree with this cannot see the truth and are in some way prejudiced themselves. Rhetorical double bind.

Teaching others about Islam isnt intolerant, no matter what scale it is on. If in the process proselytism occurs (purely voluntarily) through ones new found enlightenment then so be it.

Neat – but in the real world it is a kind of sophistry. In reality prosletysing does involve a degree of intolerance. Plus the spiel about voluntary proslytism belies the truth of certain precepts like HuT and others prescribing the death penalty for Muslims who convert elsewhere – in reality quite nasty and sinister.

Plus, overall Tanvir, you also have to realise that most people always find people who talk about their religion incessantly and carry out dawah to be tiresome and somewhat obsessive – and will always be ripe for teasing and satire. Both secular people and those of other religions.

But if the current democratic/capitalism submission framework is so amazing then what do people have to fear?

This is the best line of yours so far Tanvir. What is the ‘democratic/capitalism submission’ framework? Is that what you consider us to be living under, a ‘submission’ to democracy and capitalism? Submission is the rhetoric of Islam, not of secular democracy. Seems like the full blown HuT rhetoric – positing Islam as a benign socio-politico alternative to the ‘so called’ democratic and capitalist system. Amazing Tanvir! For so long you had me fooled.

In the context of what we are talking about, HT in Bangladesh, at face value, is educating people who are already Muslims (so no need for you to fear!) on Islamic principles they just didnt know about or understand.

While some give a conspiracy theory to explain why they discuss regular modern day issues in Dhaka campuses…. could it just be that it is because Islam is a way of life, and its teachings are there to be put into a modern day context?

The big picture is, if everyone believes in the same thing, then why not live by it – as long as everybody wants it (surely that is freedom/democracy?). See this is all hypothetically speaking, and this is all we have to go on on the info we have on HT in Bangladesh so far. But that big picture is is THEIR big picture, im sure HT in Bangladesh are very flattered that people think their plan is so realistic that non-Muslims in the Uk are itching for them to get banned.

We run into problems, if they are found to be preaching intolerance and other ills such as anti-semitism that other HT groups have been accused of. But if the current democratic/capitalism submission framework is so amazing then what do people have to fear?

For dawah as practised as evangelism – I don’t see where the issue of ‘tolerance’ comes into it. You are free to carry out dawah however you like – others are free to reject and laugh or take it apart as they see fit. It is a request for tolerance that is anomalous to the debate – the issue has nothing to do with tolerance (given also that prosletysing is itself an intolerant thing – intolerant of other belief systems)

As for your explanation of what dawah is to an individual – well yeah, but that is just what normal people do, learn about their religion or whatever – it is no big deal or anything out of the ordinary.

There seem to be several strands overlapping here and it is possible that talk of dawah and obligation is one of the things that means Pizza Hut and others are able to overlap and play on sentiments and politicise the religion by playing on basic ideas and concepts that pretty much all Muslims accept.

Tanvir:
I am presuming sunny, you are speaking of HT in England.
That I am indeed. Though I’d like to know about what they’re doing in Bangladesh too. I wonder if and when they’ll get banned.

With regards to me suggesting political Islam probably seems more problematic for politicians in Bangladesh than terrorism
Apologies. I thought you meant the opposite.

its just not nice to judge, surely everyones an individual, and within any organisation there is going to be people of various IQ.
Except that HuT always go on about how they beat other people in debates, about their intellectual superiority in their ideas etc. It’s all crap. They try to intimidate people by saying ‘are you following Islam properly’ – which is about the only real argument they have. Any (Muslim) intellectual can take them down once you’ve explored their arguments properly.

what the article says: HT groups bring together students and discuss current affairs, social issues etc, and bring about everyones different views, and then present HT’s views on it.

Exactly – and they do the same here too. Well they had been doing until other groups more recently started organising such debates too without the recruitment agenda that Pizza HuT have. Have you checked out City Circle (www.thecitycircle.com) – they have excellent events. I’ve come back from those events having learnt stuff and not thinking they were just out to brainwash me.

But its how HuT always work. They use debates, and they use controversies like Shabina Begum and the cartoons to say ‘we only care about the Muslim community’ when in fact they jus want to drive a wedge between Muslims and others.

Dawah is quite a versatile word. Teaching one to behave out of Islamic principles can be considered to be Dawah. Such as me telling my little sister to behave well at school, or study hard. It is such a big scale of things.

Now i completely understand “In short, if you expect to carry out dawah to people who are not Muslim, expect all claims, and claimants, to be subject to inspection, refutation, mockery and satire as anyone so wishes to do. That’s the name of the game”. (very very nicely put by the way).

But that is what I have deduced HT are doing in Bangladesh. They are speaking to other Muslims about Islam. Bangladesh just isnt a very religious place, particularly the upper classes and there is a very clear reason why.

Some very backward group of mullahs seem to have a monopoly over religious institutions, and are MIS-representing Islam. Have you guys seen that award winning film called Matir Moina?? Well in that film, it pretty much sums up the backward mentality I am talking about. I know some were annoyed by the negative portrayal of Islam in the film. But I was not. Because it showed people things had to change.

As for Jai Sings comments about, anyone who exercises religious practices beyong having 2.4 children, house and car and having a muslim name, being something weird, and questionable. I think thats rubbish. Dawah is compulsory for Muslims. And it makes sense! Myself educating you about things you didnt know about Islam, is also Dawah. When my mum goes to an aunty’s house every Sunday to a study session where they read hadiths and koran passages to each other, to explain what they mean and how it should be interpreted in a modern context, that is also dawah. When my dad visits a Sikh Temple for the sake of community relations, that is also Dawah.

I know its a ‘Muslim’ thing, but please have some toleance, dawah is prescribed to Muslims as compulsory, and just cos a group of non-Muslims dont like the idea of people learning more about Islam I dont think it is going to end. What we all need to work together to end is doing dawah work toward misguided people, ones who spread anti-semitism etc.

Anyway, before I digress further, I shall tell you more about my lazy Saturday afternoon-turned HT weekend (when I should be revising for finals!). I have found HT Bangaldesh videos on google video!!

This has made more clear to me than anything the line HT are taking in Bangaldesh. The videos are protesting the bomb blasts and other recent terrorist attacks in BD. This is all too good to be true. As the only document I have found writing against HT in Bangladesh, is some newspaper article that again doesnt seem to have any credible basis for being against HT, yet all it mentions is that countries that have HT present, also has some form of terrorism.

But to the public eye, HT in Bangladesh are intelectuals, who engage in dialogue, protest against these terrorists, and actually put forward thier principles in a modern context.

I think Sunny should get the first flight out there “bllooody terrorists….telling people about islam… dawahh vat is dawahh…bloody muslims….. trying to talk about it with others…chip on the shoulder muslims…. dominos pizzza muslim…….i will debate and take them allllll on and this time newscorp vill give me that job!”

Google cache: Draft Constitution by Hizb ut-Tahrir. @ http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.info/english/constitution.htm

But I don’t think Tanvir is, is he. He was talking about HT folks spreading dawa to people who are Muslim, in Bangladesh.

Like Tanvir, I too would like to know more about their activities in Bangladesh. BTW Bangladesh has had a round of real terrorism by Islamic fundamentalist groups. Not widely reported in the UK press.

My guess is HT in Bangladesh is nascent but peopled by are young, professionals and student types.

OTH Bangla Bhai, the bin-Ladenist who has recently been caught and is in custody and his goons are anything but that. They make the HT look like high minded Muscular Liberals.

Obviously my comments were generally about HuT in the UK – the kind of people we meet and debate with all the time online, in University campuses, on the street. I don’t know much about the activities of Pizza Hut in Bangladesh. But the idea that dawah is a benign activity that should be immune from deflation and criticism is what I was getting at – I’m sure that didnt lie behind your words, but it was something I wanted to say anyway.

cheers