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  • Are Hizb ut-Tahrir really dedicated?

    by Sunny
    31st March, 2006 at 2:03 am    

    I really wonder sometimes how strong members of Hizb ut-Tahrir are in their beliefs. You would think a group that keeps berating other “brothers and sisters” about how they’re not “doing their duty as Muslims” would stick to their guns. Evidently not.

    Following my appearance on PTV Prime, it seems the Pizza HuT-ters have taken their constitution off their website. Why? Dr Nazreen Nawaz was trying to explain how great the HuT inspired caliphate would be a wonderful place where religious minorities would not only be protected, but be free to practise their faith openly. See the constitution on our website, she said. Hmm.. so why take it down then?

    This isn’t the first time HuT have gotten rid of inflammatory material that may embarass them in the media. They previously took down a document about the killing of Jews too. Last week a Pizza HuT member from Denmark was caught urging “brothers” to “eliminate” any rulers that prevented them from joining the Iraq insurgency. So much for non-violence.

    Anyway, a copy of their constitution is saved here (courtesy David T). I haven’t read it fully yet, but this caught my eye.

    Article 7
    c. Those who are guilty of apostasy (murtadd) from Islam are to be executed according to the rule of apostasy, provided they have by themselves renounced Islam.

    I wonder what Inayat Bunglawala and Faisal Bodi have to say about that.

    At this rate by next year Hizb ut-Tahrir will have flowers and fluffy bunnies on their website, proclaiming their love for everyone. Maybe they’ll even be nice to General Musharraf.

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    Filed in: Humour,Religion

    41 Comments below   |  

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    1. David — on 31st March, 2006 at 8:22 am  

      Over at HP I suggested that we link to this copy of Pizza Hut’s constitution using the words “Hizb ut Tahir” as the anchor. This would mean anyone googling those words would be led to it.

      It’s a kind of google bomb, but without the puerile intent that I usually go in for. More a public information service. What do you think?

    2. Jay Singh — on 31st March, 2006 at 11:00 am  

      Pizza Hut know they are sussed and this only proves one thing - that they are a bunch of cowards who do not have the courage of their convictions. Either that, or they are a bunch of creeps who think they can deceive people as to their true nasty nature with a bit of a shuffle. Probably both.

      Amongst themselves they can fart their nonsense and lap up the smells - amongst ordinary Muslims and non Muslims all it takes is a little inspection and basic questioning to make them shrivel up with shame for what they are, and they have to try and hide it, like stupid child caught with his hand in the cookie jar. They are like the BNP in this respect, constantly trying to provide cover and rhetoric to cover up their true nature. Absolutely pathetic.

    3. Siddhartha Singh — on 31st March, 2006 at 12:40 pm  

      Here’s one for the conspiracy theory mill: Hizbut Tahrir was founded in Jordan in the 60s by a small group of Jordanian Freemasons. HizbutT members in the UK may not know it but they are operating as a Feemason spin offs. Poetic justice? You betcha!

      Tune in next week for another HuT factoid.

    4. David T — on 31st March, 2006 at 1:02 pm  

      No! But you know who runs the Freemasons?!

      Do you have ANY evidence for this at all

      …not that I need evidence of course ;)

    5. Siddhartha Singh — on 31st March, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

      I don’t have any publsihed evidence just anecdotal evidence from a Jordanian friend.

    6. Gaurav — on 31st March, 2006 at 1:23 pm  

      Jordan is a big boob.

    7. Roger — on 31st March, 2006 at 1:28 pm  

      It’s a conspiracy, for god’s sake! The fact that there’s no evidence proves it’s true and shows how efficient they are.

    8. David T — on 31st March, 2006 at 1:54 pm  


      The M.E. is one of the last hotbeds of the “Grand Illuminati Freemason Conspiracy”. I has survived there as mainstream political theorising long after it has died out almost everywhere else. In the UK, it really is confined only to nutters, and people who worry about the coppers getting their mates off parking tickets.

      So I wouldn’t buy the “Hizb = Freemasons” theory.

    9. Siddhartha Singh — on 31st March, 2006 at 2:06 pm  

      Well I think that conspiracy mongers needs dose of their own medicine. I’m willing to bet that there is some truth in it in anycase. The Freemasons are quite big in Jordan amongst the foreign-educated urban elites.

    10. Jay Singh — on 31st March, 2006 at 2:11 pm  

      That means they are actually a creation of the same forces controlling the world, in a crafty double bluff, designed to put people off their scent, by drawing attention to it, and they are all in collusion with the evil controllers, and Shabina Begum is part of the conspiracy….probably converted to those passover blood eaters themselves….astarifigullah…..their tentacles stretch far and wide….has anyone told Anjum Chaudhry?

    11. Sunny — on 31st March, 2006 at 2:17 pm  

      Poor Shabina - she doesn’t know she she’s let herself into….

    12. Don — on 31st March, 2006 at 2:22 pm  


      Never mention the tentacles in front of outsiders. You know the rules.

    13. David T — on 31st March, 2006 at 2:27 pm  


    14. Jai — on 31st March, 2006 at 2:47 pm  

      I reckon Sunny’s part of this conspiracy too. In a double-double bluff, he’s attempting to deflect attention away from his own affiliation to the HuT-Freemason nexus by publicly pretending to debunk them. He’s probably a level-28 Grand Mason or something, with a tattoo of that pyramid with the “evil eye” on his back.

      Sunny = Bluffmaster.

      You’re not fooling any of us, Sunny. We’ve all seen “The Usual Suspects.”

    15. Sunny — on 31st March, 2006 at 5:33 pm  

      David - not sure if the Google-bomb idea will work mate. Firstly they all have to link to the same place. Secondly that place has to be regularly accessed through those links so that the Google page-rank becomes higher than the actual Hizb website. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening. Their main English site is ranked 5, which won’t be easy to get to unless a lot of linked it from our front pages of our blogs directly to one place which had the constitution…

    16. Abu Maryam — on 31st March, 2006 at 11:16 pm  

      Hi I’m a Hizb member. Thanks for publicising our constitution matey!

    17. Rezwan — on 31st March, 2006 at 11:30 pm  

      Here is an interesting report on Hizb ut Tahrir’r activities in Bangladesh. They seem to have mobilized in many educational institutions and succeded in enrolling many bright students.

    18. Tanvir — on 1st April, 2006 at 1:01 am  

      Reading the link that Rezwan posted (thank you) it seems to answer the question posed by Sunny’s post very well.

      I would like to hear more of Rezwan’s views on HT in Bangladesh.

      From the article, it seems they are very well organised, and doing well in thier dawah. The author seems to explain why people are reluctant to ‘crack-down’ on HT… as if such action should be a given, as if HT was some kind of cult! The article fearfully explains that the members of HT are well educated and modern individuals…. so any desire for this organisation to consist people who can move it forward and away from any alledged negative elements is also absent! Anyhow, I would rather see someone go and debate with HT in Bangladesh and just slating them without concrete proof of HT in Bangladesh ever doing anything wrong.

      It is obvious, that ‘stopping HT’ is more important to many than stopping actual problematic organisations such as al-quaida (to some). HT seems to be getting treatment like they are terrorists etc. When their message in Bangladesh is one through inteligent discussion and debate. See to some Islam is the real enemy and any organisation that advocates dawah is more feared than ones that kill people.

    19. Sunny — on 1st April, 2006 at 2:50 am  

      For someone who usually comes across as astute Tanvir, sometimes you’re frightfully naive.

      What exactly is so ‘intelligent’ about Hizb ut Tahrir? I’ve debated with them enough times to see the same lame arguments about ‘morally degraded west’ and ‘anti-imperialism’ coming out.

      If anything, the people who follow Pizza HuT are the ones who have pretensions to be intelligent, but are just sheep looking for direction. The most intelligent Muslims I knew at school and university (and still do) ended up at banks, as lawyers, academics or were happy to live a simple life worry about their own dawah rather than that of others. Hey, I’m biased here, but to be honest I haven’t yet met one intelligent HuT member. They’re all boring parodies of each other.

      Is spreading anti-Jewish literature, asking brothers to go and fight in Israel/Iraq etc dawah for you? I guess I may have given you more credence than you deserve.

      The more ‘problematic’ organisations such as Al-Qaeda rely on the likes of HuT to radicalise people that they can then recruit. There is little difference in their rhetoric. Its just that HuT claim to be non-violent.

      See to some Islam is the real enemy and any organisation that advocates dawah is more feared than ones that kill people

      Yawn. Have you ever had a debate without that chip on your shoulder?

    20. Tanvir — on 1st April, 2006 at 3:43 am  

      My comments were directed at Rezwan, but your reply is fine and the regular jumping-the gun shit. I was referring specifically to the activities of HT in Bangladesh; which after some reading I have found is also known as Khelafat Andolon.

      I am presuming sunny, you are speaking of HT in England. If on the other hand, you happened to have sat in a HT meeting in Bangladesh, or witnessed “spreading anti-Jewish literature, asking brothers to go and fight in Israel/Iraq etc” … please tell me more.

      Anyway, as I was saying in the last post, I would be well interested to hear Rezwan’s views on HT in Bangladesh. I had only read about them in the newspapers last time I was there and really had not heard anyone talking about them. Many of my friends are at the universities mentioned in the article about HT in Bangladesh, although the crowd is not really into religion so I guess the whole HT thing would have totally bypassed them.

      With regards to me suggesting political Islam probably seems more problematic for politicians in Bangladesh than terrorism… (call it your favourite saying ‘chip on the shoulder’ if you must) …. surely that is a common sense conclusion!! - as the political version actually questions their legitimacy through dialogue and makes people think, while the small minded violence only repels people.

      Going back to the intelligence issue… its just not nice to judge, surely everyones an individual, and within any organisation there is going to be people of various IQ. I am really thinking that you havnt read the article I was talking about (but felt free to go off on one about my comments on it). Anyway, i’ll explain briefly, what the article says: HT groups bring together students and discuss current affairs, social issues etc, and bring about everyones different views, and then present HT’s views on it. Unfortunately, this kind of thing does not happen at the private universities in Dhaka, student politics is informally banned, where as student politics at the gov’t institutions is awful. HT saw a niche market. Students at the private universities dont get much out of uni life apart from thier classes, and this approach HT has made to make people think about certain issues seems to be working.

      I am looking at what I have read about HT in Bangladesh without bias, and usually like to keep my mind open about things (for a while anyway). So, if anyone has more info on HT in Bangladesh I would be very interested.

    21. Jay Singh — on 1st April, 2006 at 2:11 pm  


      What is dawah?

      I suspect that if you think about it you will know what the answer to your question is - when any individual engages in prosletysing activity for any religion or ideology they put themselves up for inspection. In short, people who carry out ‘dawah’ make big claims for Islam, but they sometimes, somehow, believe that whilst making these claims, their claims should not be refuted, laughed at, mocked, or rejected, without it being interpreted as some great big conspiracy liable to send the proponents of ‘dawah’ into a grand sulk and sullen angry funk.

      The masses of Muslims who don’t worry about such things, who get on with life and treat their religion as one amongst many, equal to all religions, who try to get on with life and make a living honestly, without recourse to claiming nonsense like Islam is the only path to societal or personal salvation are not being referred to here.

      After all, in the scheme of things, they understand that Islam is just another religion, equal to every other religion, no better and no worse than Buddhism, Christianity, Sikhism or Rastafari or Hare Krishna. That is all it is. One religion amongst many. That is all it ever has been, and all it ever will be.

      For Muslims who don’t accept that, and believe that their religion is some kind of superior ideology and that it must be taken out to the infidels through ‘dawah’ , they have to get used to having their grand claims treated just like any other belief system or ideology that announces itself in the modern world. Simple as that. If it was just a question of religion, like a few Hare Krishnas chanting ‘Om’, that would be another thing altogether.

      But dawah missionaries make rather grand and pompous societal claims for their cause, and it is inevitable that in this day and age, pompous ideology will be deflated. That is why Pizza Hut, who are an anti-semitic, proto-fascist conspiracy theorising bigoted clan of theocrats, are rightfully taken to task for their idiotarian politics. There is no religion here - this is pure politics. If you conflate religion with politics expect to be criticised politically - don’t whine and say ‘please dont criticise my religion’ when you (I don’t mean you personally, I am talking generally) take it into the public realm as a half-baked political cause.

      In short, if you expect to carry out dawah to people who are not Muslim, expect all claims, and claimants, to be subject to inspection, refutation, mockery and satire as anyone so wishes to do. That’s the name of the game.

    22. Jay Singh — on 1st April, 2006 at 2:17 pm  


      Obviously my comments were generally about HuT in the UK - the kind of people we meet and debate with all the time online, in University campuses, on the street. I don’t know much about the activities of Pizza Hut in Bangladesh. But the idea that dawah is a benign activity that should be immune from deflation and criticism is what I was getting at - I’m sure that didnt lie behind your words, but it was something I wanted to say anyway.


    23. Sid D H Arthur — on 1st April, 2006 at 3:32 pm  

      In short, if you expect to carry out dawah to people who are not Muslim, expect all claims, and claimants, to be subject to inspection, refutation, mockery and satire as anyone so wishes to do. That’s the name of the game.

      But I don’t think Tanvir is, is he. He was talking about HT folks spreading dawa to people who are Muslim, in Bangladesh.

      Like Tanvir, I too would like to know more about their activities in Bangladesh. BTW Bangladesh has had a round of real terrorism by Islamic fundamentalist groups. Not widely reported in the UK press.

      My guess is HT in Bangladesh is nascent but peopled by are young, professionals and student types.

      OTH Bangla Bhai, the bin-Ladenist who has recently been caught and is in custody and his goons are anything but that. They make the HT look like high minded Muscular Liberals. ;-)

    24. Jay Singh — on 1st April, 2006 at 3:39 pm  

      Yeah I know Sid, that’s why I posted afterwards at 2:17pm. And I was using the generic ‘you’.

    25. Sid D H Arthur — on 1st April, 2006 at 3:43 pm  

      I know Jay. I just posted that using the generic “we’.

    26. Tasneem — on 1st April, 2006 at 3:49 pm  

      Excellent debate going on ;-) Would like to share info that may enlighten this more. The HT constitution in question was drafted by Taqiuddin al-Nabhani — HT founder. So, this is pretty much central to the philosophy HT endorses. I clearly understand that HT highcommand is not stupid enough to bank on this particular piece of document while they are in debate with anyone outside their own ranks. So at some point taking it off the web was always obvious. I am eager to see if HT denies existence of this “draft-document” anytime soon. Anyway, for future reference here goes a copy of the page from the Google cache. I will be posting the HTML file sometime soon in my blog.

      Google cache: Draft Constitution by Hizb ut-Tahrir. @

    27. Tanvir — on 1st April, 2006 at 4:26 pm  

      What is dawah?

      Dawah is quite a versatile word. Teaching one to behave out of Islamic principles can be considered to be Dawah. Such as me telling my little sister to behave well at school, or study hard. It is such a big scale of things.

      Now i completely understand “In short, if you expect to carry out dawah to people who are not Muslim, expect all claims, and claimants, to be subject to inspection, refutation, mockery and satire as anyone so wishes to do. That’s the name of the game”. (very very nicely put by the way).

      But that is what I have deduced HT are doing in Bangladesh. They are speaking to other Muslims about Islam. Bangladesh just isnt a very religious place, particularly the upper classes and there is a very clear reason why.

      Some very backward group of mullahs seem to have a monopoly over religious institutions, and are MIS-representing Islam. Have you guys seen that award winning film called Matir Moina?? Well in that film, it pretty much sums up the backward mentality I am talking about. I know some were annoyed by the negative portrayal of Islam in the film. But I was not. Because it showed people things had to change.

      As for Jai Sings comments about, anyone who exercises religious practices beyong having 2.4 children, house and car and having a muslim name, being something weird, and questionable. I think thats rubbish. Dawah is compulsory for Muslims. And it makes sense! Myself educating you about things you didnt know about Islam, is also Dawah. When my mum goes to an aunty’s house every Sunday to a study session where they read hadiths and koran passages to each other, to explain what they mean and how it should be interpreted in a modern context, that is also dawah. When my dad visits a Sikh Temple for the sake of community relations, that is also Dawah.

      I know its a ‘Muslim’ thing, but please have some toleance, dawah is prescribed to Muslims as compulsory, and just cos a group of non-Muslims dont like the idea of people learning more about Islam I dont think it is going to end. What we all need to work together to end is doing dawah work toward misguided people, ones who spread anti-semitism etc.

      Anyway, before I digress further, I shall tell you more about my lazy Saturday afternoon-turned HT weekend (when I should be revising for finals!). I have found HT Bangaldesh videos on google video!!

      This has made more clear to me than anything the line HT are taking in Bangaldesh. The videos are protesting the bomb blasts and other recent terrorist attacks in BD. This is all too good to be true. As the only document I have found writing against HT in Bangladesh, is some newspaper article that again doesnt seem to have any credible basis for being against HT, yet all it mentions is that countries that have HT present, also has some form of terrorism.

      But to the public eye, HT in Bangladesh are intelectuals, who engage in dialogue, protest against these terrorists, and actually put forward thier principles in a modern context.

      I think Sunny should get the first flight out there “bllooody terrorists….telling people about islam… dawahh vat is dawahh…bloody muslims….. trying to talk about it with others…chip on the shoulder muslims…. dominos pizzza muslim…….i will debate and take them allllll on and this time newscorp vill give me that job!”

    28. Sunny — on 1st April, 2006 at 4:39 pm  

      Tasneedm - good stuff. You’re right in that HuT will say it was only a draft constitution. But I find it funny they got rid of it just as the HuT member tells me go and read the constitution on the website!

      I am presuming sunny, you are speaking of HT in England.
      That I am indeed. Though I’d like to know about what they’re doing in Bangladesh too. I wonder if and when they’ll get banned.

      With regards to me suggesting political Islam probably seems more problematic for politicians in Bangladesh than terrorism
      Apologies. I thought you meant the opposite.

      its just not nice to judge, surely everyones an individual, and within any organisation there is going to be people of various IQ.
      Except that HuT always go on about how they beat other people in debates, about their intellectual superiority in their ideas etc. It’s all crap. They try to intimidate people by saying ‘are you following Islam properly’ - which is about the only real argument they have. Any (Muslim) intellectual can take them down once you’ve explored their arguments properly.

      what the article says: HT groups bring together students and discuss current affairs, social issues etc, and bring about everyones different views, and then present HT’s views on it.

      Exactly - and they do the same here too. Well they had been doing until other groups more recently started organising such debates too without the recruitment agenda that Pizza HuT have. Have you checked out City Circle ( - they have excellent events. I’ve come back from those events having learnt stuff and not thinking they were just out to brainwash me.

      But its how HuT always work. They use debates, and they use controversies like Shabina Begum and the cartoons to say ‘we only care about the Muslim community’ when in fact they jus want to drive a wedge between Muslims and others.

    29. Jay Singh — on 1st April, 2006 at 4:41 pm  


      For dawah as practised as evangelism - I don’t see where the issue of ‘tolerance’ comes into it. You are free to carry out dawah however you like - others are free to reject and laugh or take it apart as they see fit. It is a request for tolerance that is anomalous to the debate - the issue has nothing to do with tolerance (given also that prosletysing is itself an intolerant thing - intolerant of other belief systems)

      As for your explanation of what dawah is to an individual - well yeah, but that is just what normal people do, learn about their religion or whatever - it is no big deal or anything out of the ordinary.

      There seem to be several strands overlapping here and it is possible that talk of dawah and obligation is one of the things that means Pizza Hut and others are able to overlap and play on sentiments and politicise the religion by playing on basic ideas and concepts that pretty much all Muslims accept.

    30. Tanvir — on 1st April, 2006 at 8:56 pm  

      What you are missing is, dawah is itself is not intolerant…. it can be made out that way by those who hold a profound contempt to what is being said. Teaching others about Islam isnt intolerant, no matter what scale it is on. If in the process proselytism occurs (purely voluntarily) through ones new found enlightenment then so be it. I am more for an open mindedness and people being able to change their views out of their personal choice.

      In the context of what we are talking about, HT in Bangladesh, at face value, is educating people who are already Muslims (so no need for you to fear!) on Islamic principles they just didnt know about or understand.

      While some give a conspiracy theory to explain why they discuss regular modern day issues in Dhaka campuses…. could it just be that it is because Islam is a way of life, and its teachings are there to be put into a modern day context?

      The big picture is, if everyone believes in the same thing, then why not live by it - as long as everybody wants it (surely that is freedom/democracy?). See this is all hypothetically speaking, and this is all we have to go on on the info we have on HT in Bangladesh so far. But that big picture is is THEIR big picture, im sure HT in Bangladesh are very flattered that people think their plan is so realistic that non-Muslims in the Uk are itching for them to get banned.

      We run into problems, if they are found to be preaching intolerance and other ills such as anti-semitism that other HT groups have been accused of. But if the current democratic/capitalism submission framework is so amazing then what do people have to fear?

    31. Jay Singh — on 1st April, 2006 at 9:12 pm  

      Tanvir you play some neat rhetorical conflations yourself:

      What you are missing is, dawah is itself is not intolerant…. it can be made out that way by those who hold a profound contempt to what is being said.

      Translation: All those who consider prosletysing as intolerant in fact hold the truths of Islam in ‘profound contempt’ - ie: those who disagree with this cannot see the truth and are in some way prejudiced themselves. Rhetorical double bind.

      Teaching others about Islam isnt intolerant, no matter what scale it is on. If in the process proselytism occurs (purely voluntarily) through ones new found enlightenment then so be it.

      Neat - but in the real world it is a kind of sophistry. In reality prosletysing does involve a degree of intolerance. Plus the spiel about voluntary proslytism belies the truth of certain precepts like HuT and others prescribing the death penalty for Muslims who convert elsewhere - in reality quite nasty and sinister.

      Plus, overall Tanvir, you also have to realise that most people always find people who talk about their religion incessantly and carry out dawah to be tiresome and somewhat obsessive - and will always be ripe for teasing and satire. Both secular people and those of other religions.

      But if the current democratic/capitalism submission framework is so amazing then what do people have to fear?

      This is the best line of yours so far Tanvir. What is the ‘democratic/capitalism submission’ framework? Is that what you consider us to be living under, a ‘submission’ to democracy and capitalism? Submission is the rhetoric of Islam, not of secular democracy. Seems like the full blown HuT rhetoric - positing Islam as a benign socio-politico alternative to the ‘so called’ democratic and capitalist system. Amazing Tanvir! For so long you had me fooled.

    32. Sunny — on 1st April, 2006 at 9:20 pm  

      The big picture is, if everyone believes in the same thing, then why not live by it - as long as everybody wants it (surely that is freedom/democracy?)

      Err no. I think you don’t understand democracy. In it, people are free to disagree and hold opposing views and practice different lifestyles that do not harm each other.

      In a HuT world that is not the case. To assume that all Muslims think alike is pure bullshit. To assume also that Pizza HuT are simply helping build a world that everyone wants is also bullshit. Their representative claimed on PTV that she people should have freedom of expression on religion, but then had to admit they would not be extending that freedom to others in their own world! Hypocrites.

    33. Tanvir — on 1st April, 2006 at 9:55 pm  

      I can stand my ground and take it on the chin if i believe in something, this isnt some declaration of support for HT, im just I am purely asking people to look practically and objectively on HT in bd..Jai i doubt your rants are based on any resreach on HT on BD, but i’ll humour you. As for ‘most people find people who carry out dawah to be tiresome’ i dont think most people are obliged to listen if they dont want to, and if that was the case, nobody would be going to these HTmeetings in Dhaka, nor would you be so annoyed!!

      Now, your favourite part of my last post, “the submission to the ‘democratic/capitalism submission’ framework? is a given.” Not just by myself, but just about everyone. I personally know two former head of states of Bangladesh, both leaders of their individual political parties at the moment. I dont think even either of those gentlemen would argue such a issue. Even current government Ministers have said, on the record about the ills of the the system. Anyway, thats not the point….you see your passion against Islam keeps taking over, and you loose concentration, we are talking about the HT organisation in Bangladesh, yet you go off on an Islamaphobic rant about submission etc etc, can you actually backit up with evidence on HT in Bangladesh? Your passion against Islam overlooked whole whole point of me asking the question……so here goes again, please pay attention:

      Do you think HT is soooo good that 150million people will choose it as an alternative to the current system of governance?

      Come on give us an answer, a yes or no will suffice. As I expect, you will answer without reading a single word about HT in Bangladesh, yet slate it. Its okay, though, the question was rhetorical.

      So here goes, my actual views on the matter (all this time i had pretty much been playing devils advocate). HT coming to power in BD is not guna happen in the near future, although this is what they want. People in Bangladesh are too passionate about JP,AL and BNP -everyone seems to have some affiliation to one of them. Now what HT do preach is Islamic teachings on just about everything, whilst at the same time saying the government should follow and Islamic model. The spread of Islamic thinking on various social issues as well as morals will do the most corrupt nation in the world good i believe, and as this word spreads, and people are also enlightened on how their government sells them out, the masses will demand their government shape up. Nor will the masses continue buy the version of Islam peddled by the uneducated backward clerics - which again will bring social justice. The presence of HT will also keep the government on thier toes, and as better, modern Islamic thinking becomes more widespread the government may even implement some reforms.

      Thats all I reckon is going to come of this.

      Problem is (for some), those people who were only Muslim by name, may actually realise their religion has quite a lot of wisdom in it….and that is really burning you mate you give it away too easily, you need to step back and look at your bigotry and intolereance. I’m talking about HT in Dhaka, talking about social issues with uni students, and you are compring it to ‘prescribing the death penalty for those who convert elsewhere’ your comments are as ridiculous as for example: me cussing a Hindu for Sati when he tries to educate me on a few ethical principles. And its not about a chip on shoulder etc etc… its about an organisation that at face value is trying to do something good -UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE, something that Bangladesh needs, yet HT in Bd is accused of the very thing they seem to be trying to tackle - backward interpretation of religion and extreamism.

    34. Vikrant — on 1st April, 2006 at 10:02 pm  

      Hindus… and … Sati… go get a life.

    35. Tanvir — on 1st April, 2006 at 10:05 pm  

      Surely deomocracy is the majority view… bills are passed with majority, which means a big chunk of a nation very much against a law get left unhappy… but anyways i wont go on about it…. basicly, in Bangladesh just about every single sentiment no matter how big or small, is followed by a procession in the streets big of shouting, maybe a car window smashed (and i duno how they get the big banners made so quick!!)…. i dont think any organisation is going to be able to tell Bengalis what to do outright.

    36. Jay Singh — on 1st April, 2006 at 10:19 pm  

      See Tanvir, that’s it, you characterise someone who is sceptical of your position as engaging in a ‘rant’. And the ascription of ‘intolerance’, ‘bigotry’ and ‘burning up’ says more about your mindset than mine. It is a deeply paranoid and limited mind that ascribes these qualities to those who take apart HuT rhetoric and positioning. It is rather hysterical and ridiculous too, but I don’t think you have the perspective to realise that.

    37. Sunny — on 2nd April, 2006 at 12:45 am  

      im just I am purely asking people to look practically and objectively on HT in bd..Jai i doubt your rants are based on any resreach on HT on BD, but i’ll humour you.

      Tanvir - this is a bizarre argument. Even you said you don’t know enough about HuT in BD, and I admit I don’t either. So why exactly are we getting obsessed about HuT in BD?

      Look. No one has ever said democracy is perfect and that it makes everyone happy. But its a system that has one quality more than anything to survive - it is a constantly changing and evolving system. Without that, any system becomes stagnant and falls apart.

      A majority rules situation would apply to any country, even BD. Say if the Hindus don’t want HuT to turn it into their Khalifah in BD. Would HuT then not bother? Rubbish, they’re as power hungry and idealist as the next man.

      HuT remind me of communists. I used to call myself one, but realised one thing very quickly. Any pre-planned system that has not actually worked in practice will never actually work in practice. In theory even I can come up with a political and economic system. But in reality that shit don’t work. Maybe one day it’ll come to you. Maybe not.
      Either way, most HuT members in the UK are delusional fools who reckon they’re intelligent because they can string a sentence together. They want tolerance, but never practice it.

    38. Tanvir — on 2nd April, 2006 at 1:11 am  

      The talk about HT in bd was isntigated by the post made by Rezwan.. and went on from there, i was actually asking if anyone knew more about them, and it automatically went off into a generic HT cussing match, often missing the point we are talking about a different HT. Anyways, read post 33, i dont actually think HT will come to power in bd in the near future.

    39. Sunny — on 2nd April, 2006 at 2:31 am  

      They won’t be coming to power anywhere in the near future.

    40. Jai — on 2nd April, 2006 at 5:58 pm  

      =>”Jai i doubt your rants are based on any resreach on HT on BD, but i’ll humour you”

      Tanvir, I don’t know if you’re a relatively new arrival to PP, but — in case you are — let me state yet again that “Jai” and “Jay Singh” are 2 separate people.

      Also, I do not think my namesake is “ranting” and I agree with the various points he has made.

      I’m not going to comment on Bangladeshi politics but HuT certainly will not be coming to power here in the West, including the UK. There is no way in hell any non-Muslims here, especially the indigenous population, would ever allow that to happen. People are not interested in living under any kind of theocratic system of government, especially Islam. As I’ve mentioned in another thread, to do so would be regarded as a serious step backwards by the majority population here.

      I can see people cutting Islam some slack during pre-9/11 times, but every time something like 7/7 occurs, or people from various Islamic groups are seen protesting and demanding “behead those who insult Islam” or chanting “7/7 on its way”, or yet another group of suspects goes on trial for plots to bomb civilian targets in the UK…..well, it’s yet another nail in the coffin of orthodox Islam’s credibility in the eyes of the majority population here.

      Islamic rule in the UK ? It’ll never happen, and believe me people will fight to the end to prevent this from occurring.

      The continued efforts by HuT and its affiliates to promote the concept of “Islam is the Solution”, despite the fact that most people here are just not interested, is like a sex pest constantly, repeatedly harassing a woman regardless of how many times she rejects him. Often, “No means No. End of discussion.”

    41. Rezwan — on 3rd April, 2006 at 10:52 am  

      Hi Tanvir,

      I don’t have much on the HT in Bangladesh. But I have heard from many that in expensive and Westernized Edu institutions like North Soth University and even in the top technical University BUET, HT is making a mark. They are saying that students clad in western Hip-hop cloths with their elite Westernized surroundings are slowly blending into radical thoughts of HT. Its very interesting but without much info it would be wrong if we want to draw a conclusion.

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