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  • The ‘fascist’ in Israel


    by Sunny
    18th March, 2009 at 5:55 am    

    The Times reported yesterday that Binyamin Netanyahu is the new Prime Minister of Israel. Guess who this hard-rightwinger is appointing as foreign minister?
    Avigdor Lieberman, who Andrew Sullivan rightly calls a ‘fascist’:

    Lieberman advocates “reducing the number of Arabs who are Israeli citizens” through giving the Palestinian Authority Arab-Israeli towns near the West Bank and having Arabs who remain Israeli citizens take loyalty tests and recognize Israel as a Jewish State. Those who refuse would be stripped of their citizenship, but could remain in Israel as permanent residents.

    I’m sure he’ll do wonders for the peace process. Who shall we blame for this? I know, Hamas!
    And unfortunately, there are signs why Lieberman is so popular in Israel. According to a recent poll (via Sullivan):

    Sixty-eight percent of Israeli Jews would refuse to live in the same apartment building as an Israeli Arab, according to the results of an annual poll released Wednesday by the Center for the Struggle Against Racism… Forty-six percent of Jews would refuse to allow an Arab to visit their home while 50 percent would welcome an Arab visitor. Forty-one percent of Jewish support the segregation of Jews and Arabs in places of recreation and 52 percent of such Jews would oppose such a move.

    Now, there’s no doubt that anti-semitism features quite prominent in religious discourse across the Middle East. But that anti-Arab racism is also so high is quite shocking. How the hell Obama is going to resolve this is anyone’s guess.

    And if anyone makes even slightly racist comments underneath I will delete and ban your ass.


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    Filed in: Current affairs,Middle East,Race politics






    149 Comments below   |  

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    1. pickles

      New blog post: The ‘fascist’ in Israel http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/3775




    1. comrade — on 18th March, 2009 at 7:39 am  

      Sunny

      Lieberman, is not only a facist, but an outright racist, Will the UN impose a travel ban on this monster, like they did on Mugabe, will they fuck.

    2. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 9:09 am  

      And you’re surprised at the results of the poll?

      I know everybody’s going to shout ‘apologist’, but I’m willing to bet that, apart from the religious lunatics who don’t consider I’m Jewish enough to share with them (and I’ve got all the paperwork), the majority of those opinions are caused by fear. I don’t condone this, because the first step to reconciliation is extending a hand to those who frighten you.

      I would also like to point out that Jews aren’t allowed to live in some Arab countries, and, officially, can’t even visit Saudi Arabia. It’s a two way street.

      Leiberman - Racist and lunatic. But Israel’s dilemma which results in even the possibility of this man being in a government should permanently shut up proponents of PR (and despite my well known aversion to public relations, this is not what I mean here). In a first-past-the-post system, there would have been no chance of this man being more than an MP, if that.

      How the hell is Obama going to resolve this? He isn’t. You can bring people together, you can bang their heads together, but until they are both prepared to accept less than they want, there is no resolution.

    3. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 9:14 am  

      I’d just like to dispute your use of the word ‘Fascist’.

      A Fascist is not necessarily a racist or a bigot, although they usually are, but is, primarily, a dictator.

      Hence while I will happily call Leiberman a racist, a bigot, a bastard, and finally, a word that ladies of my generation aren’t expected to know, let alone use. But I doubt that he’s a potential dictator.

    4. platinum786 — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:24 am  

      The situation in the middle east cannot be helped whilst this us and then attitude exists. The apparatus of the israeli state is not helping by encouraging it.

    5. Rumbold — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:27 am  

      I suppose that he has fascistic tendencies.

      Chairwoman:

      Israelis aren’t allowed to visit Dubai either. This fact came to light in this country when West Ham and Bolton went to visit Dubai for a holiday/training camp, and their Israeli internationals were not allowed in (in 2006). Rather than stand in solidarity with their players, the Israelis were left at home and the rest of the squad went anyway. Imagine if the same thing had happened in apartheid era South Africa, with black players being left at home.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2006/apr/11/newsstory.sport6

      I don’t care how nice a time the Israelis had elsewhere. It was disgusting.

    6. fug — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:28 am  

      theres anti ethiopianism too.

      Fascism is also associated with ridiculous, rigid ideas of purity, which run through israel, ontologically and epistemologically.

    7. fug — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:44 am  

      chair woman, why would a jewish person want to visit saudi america?

      like the relationship between the indian state and the people who left there prepartition to go all over the world, it must be wierd for countries of jewish abandonment to come to a position where they want jewish people of their heritage to come home.

      the strongest actor has to recognise error and humble itself first.

    8. Leon — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:57 am  

      I’m not sure it’s fair to compare not being allowed to live in another country due to your ethnicity to having your rights stripped of you in your own for not showing ‘loyalty’ to another ethnic groups idealism.

      Anyway as an aside the guy is scum, real nasty piece of work. Much of what he’s saying would not be out of place in many other parts of the world at various troubled times in history…

    9. Hermes — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:23 am  

      Go on Leon, say it…do you mean like Fascist Germany? And you deleted me for saying just that a few weeks ago!

    10. The Dude — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:29 am  

      Rumbold

      The same thing happened again a few weeks ago, when a woman’s tennis player, Shahar Peer, was refused entry in to the United Arab Emirates because she happen to come from Israel.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/7891164.stm

      It was wrong but given the situation in Gaza it wasn’t surprising. This poor girl had even had abuse thrown at her in New Zealand of all places. Mind you at least her colleagues and the Tour itself didn’t let her down. Dubai ended up having to pay a massive fine for the omission of Ms Peer from the tournament and worse still the withdrawal of the tournament itself from Dubai if the same thing happened again.

      Chairwoman

      Post 3: It’s rare that we agree on anything but you’re 100% right to say that fear is the major factor motivating politics in Israel.

      Post 4: You’re wrong about “Oh Mr DJ put a record on” Leiberman. Last night I stayed up late to watch the penultimate episode of the “World at World. It was harrowing viewing in the extreme and yet I couldn’t help thinking about Israel’s new foreign minister. I kept on recognising trace elements of Leiberman within Himler. This is only my guess, a feeling but I don’t think it would take much to turn Leiberman in to a Himler. Leiberman might not YET be a fascist in the true sense of the word, but the potential of him becoming so is obvious for all to see. Worse still PR will make it a whole lot easier for Leiberman to get where he is going.

    11. The Dude — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:29 am  

      Rumbold

      The same thing happened again a few weeks ago, when a woman’s tennis player, Shahar Peer, was refused entry in to the United Arab Emirates because she happen to come from Israel.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/7891164.stm

      It was wrong but given the situation in Gaza it wasn’t surprising. This poor girl had even had abuse thrown at her in New Zealand of all places. Mind you at least her colleagues and the Tour itself didn’t let her down. Dubai ended up having to pay a massive fine for the omission of Ms Peer from the tournament and worse still the withdrawal of the tournament itself from Dubai if the same thing happened again.

      Chairwoman

      Post 3: It’s rare that we agree on anything but you’re 100% right to say that fear is the major factor motivating politics in Israel.

      Post 4: You’re wrong about “Oh Mr DJ put a record on” Leiberman. Last night I stayed up late to watch the penultimate episode of the “World at World. It was harrowing viewing in the extreme and yet I couldn’t help thinking about Israel’s new foreign minister. I kept on recognising trace elements of Leiberman within Himler. This is only my guess, a feeling but I don’t think it would take much to turn Leiberman in to a Himler. Leiberman might not YET be a fascist in the true sense of the word, but the potential of him becoming so is obvious for all to see. Worse still PR will make it a whole lot easier for Leiberman to get where he is going.

    12. soru — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:42 am  

      A Fascist is not necessarily a racist or a bigot, although they usually are, but is, primarily, a dictator.

      That’s a strange definition - it would mean Mosely wasn’t a fascist, but Stalin was one while Hitler was still running for election in jackboots.

      I don’t hold with calling merely right-wing politicians, even Enoch Powell-style racists, fascist.
      If you use a narrow definition of fascist, like some historians do, no-one alive under the age of 90 is one.

      But using the more general, political science rather than historical, term, his politics are a pretty good fit. Lieberman advocates taking a national democracy and making it a limited-franchise democracy in order to better reflect the inherent essence of the nation. If that’s not quite fascism, it’s certainly as close as say the Ba’ath party.

    13. Leon — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:53 am  

      Go on Leon, say it…do you mean like Fascist Germany? And you deleted me for saying just that a few weeks ago!

      My first thought was actually South Africa and America and McCarthyism…

    14. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:01 pm  

      fug - Why on earth wouldn’t I want to take a look at a culture so removed from those I know? That’s why people travel, otherwise we’d all go to Bognor Regis!

      soru - I have no doubt that had Moseley achieved power he would have dispensed with elections for any party other than his own, which surely is the prime sign of the despot and the fascist, and by that token, may I present to you, Uncle Joe Stalin and the leaders of all the Soviet Bloc countries.

      Note I use neither word communist nor Socialist, those were the masks behind which they hid their fascistism.

    15. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:10 pm  

      Rumbold
      “Israelis aren’t allowed to visit Dubai either. This fact came to light in this country when West Ham and Bolton went to visit Dubai for a holiday/training camp, and their Israeli internationals were not allowed in (in 2006). Rather than stand in solidarity with their players, the Israelis were left at home and the rest of the squad went anyway. Imagine if the same thing had happened in apartheid era South Africa, with black players being left at home.”

      Actually it would be more like if white South Africans were left on the plane during apartheid.

      Israel doesnt allow Muslims from many nations to visit Masjid al aqsa occupied Jerusalem despite it being next to Mecca and Medina in holiness in the Muslim religion (hell they dont even allow Palestinians under 45 to visit it)

      As far as Im aware Dubai isnt a holy place for Israelis
      and a centre of their religion.
      Perhaps you could correct me.

    16. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:27 pm  

      Now, there’s no doubt that anti-semitism features quite prominent in religious discourse across the Middle East. But that anti-Arab racism is also so high is quite shocking.

      Please qualify these shockingly high levels of anti-Arab racism. Where and in what context are you referring to?

      Levels of anti-semitism, Jew baiting and Jewish conspiracy theories are so high in political and cultural discourse in some parts of the Middle East, as to be axiomatic.

    17. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:30 pm  

      Avigdor Lieberman?

      [shudder]

    18. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:39 pm  

      Sid
      “Please qualify these shockingly high levels of anti-Arab racism. Where and in what context are you referring to?

      Levels of anti-semitism, Jew baiting and Jewish conspiracy theories are so high in political and cultural discourse in some parts of the Middle East, as to be axiomatic”

      There we have it from PP’s resident anti-arab blogger
      One type of anti-semitism -Anti-Arab racism- needs to be given a context. No context for the other.

      Indeed in people like Sid and some zionists minds some racisms are worse than others- they believe anti-semitism against Jews is worse than any other racism .

      Its a kind of racist anti-racism.

    19. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:40 pm  

      “Israel doesnt allow Muslims from many nations to visit Masjid al aqsa occupied Jerusalem despite it being next to Mecca and Medina in holiness in the Muslim religion (hell they dont even allow Palestinians under 45 to visit it)”

      Under Jordanian rule, Munir, no Jew was allowed to visit the Western Wall, our premier holy place, and today there are many Jewish holy sites in the West Bank that are out of bounds to Jews.

      And as for Dubai it’s a major holiday resort these days, didn’t you know? I personally would not want to go there, as I doubt that it’s got anything to offer to my taste, but I’m not a sun sand and sea type of person.

    20. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:42 pm  

      munir - you appear to be the antithesis of what you accuse Sid of being.

      What you can’t stand about Sid is that he is completely open-handed, and criticises both sides equally, whereas you appear to want a more, shall we call it, single minded view.

    21. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:48 pm  

      Munir/blah

      One type of anti-semitism -Anti-Arab racism- needs to be given a context. No context for the other.

      You have personally been responsible for much of the anti-semitism on this site, although lucky for your credibility, we have had to delete all of it. So, really antisemitism on PP needs no qualification. You are the walking, talking qualification thereof.

      Thankfully, the “When in doubt, scream racist” school of argument has long lost it’s power to shut down debate and stifle rational argument on this site.

      If Sunny writes an ambigious line such as “anti-Arab racism is also so high is quite shocking”, I think its perfectly correct to ask him to qualify and and put it in context.

    22. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:48 pm  

      Sunny
      “Guess who this hard-rightwinger is appointing as foreign minister?”

      “Foreign” minister is right: Lieberman wasnt even born in Israel - yet he wants to expel the original indigenous people of the land- can you imagine the sheer chutzpah ?

      Itd be like al-muhajiroun demanding the indigenous people of Britain be expelled and Muslims imported from all over the world to replace them.

      Where would someone get this idea other than from a religio-facist ideaology which holds they by virtue of their race/religion have an eternal right to someone else land. Lieberman has no other connection to Israel.

      And people in the UK complain about uppity immigrants.

      Still as with the Gaza slaughter it yet again shows to the word the true nature of the state of Israel.

    23. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 12:52 pm  

      munir - I hope that you will encourage all the elected UK Muslim politicians born abroad to resign immediately.

      Chutzpah is Yiddish. Just thought I’d mention it.

    24. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:00 pm  

      Where would someone get this idea other than from a religio-facist ideaology which holds they by virtue of their race/religion have an eternal right to someone else land.

      Ironically it’s on exactly that basis (albeit purely religion, not race) that Al-Muhajiroun claim to have the “right” to try to overthrow the current form of government in Britain and indeed also destroy this country’s way of life by imposing their extreme interpretation of Islam on the entire population from the top-down. I remember seeing an interview on the BBC with Anjem Choudary a while back where he actually said this outright.

    25. Anas — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:03 pm  

      Please qualify these shockingly high levels of anti-Arab racism. Where and in what context are you referring to?

      huh?? Israel. Didn’t you read the rest of what Sunny wrote?

    26. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:06 pm  

      Jai
      “Ironically it’s on exactly that basis (albeit purely religion, not race) that Al-Muhajiroun claim to have the “right” to try to overthrow the current form of government in Britain and indeed also destroy this country’s way of life by imposing their extreme interpretation of Islam on the entire population from the top-down. I remember seeing an interview on the BBC with Anjem Choudary a while back where he actually said this outright.”

      Quite (although they dont call for expulsion of the indigenouc population as Lieberman does). If Anjem Choudhury is appointed foreign minister perhaps we should be as concerned as when Lieberman.

      Al Muhajiroun are loonies and outcasts in the UK Muslim community. They havent been appointed as its representative as Lieberman has.

    27. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:09 pm  

      chairwoman
      “munir - I hope that you will encourage all the elected UK Muslim politicians born abroad to resign immediately.”

      And I hope you will learn to read properly.

      Lieberman being born abroad isnt the main issue. His Nazism is. Nick Griffin calling on non-whites to be expelled isnt somehow acceptable because his family has been here for centuries

      What makes Lieberman even more facsistic is that he has no roots in the land and instead demands the indigenous people leave.

      But what makes his fascistic is he calls on the Arabs to be expelled. Not that he was born abroad.

    28. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:14 pm  

      chairwoman
      “What you can’t stand about Sid is that he is completely open-handed, and criticises both sides equally, whereas you appear to want a more, shall we call it, single minded view.”

      hahahah are you serious? He is a rabid partisan.
      There is rarely a position involving Muslims where he doesnt take the anti-Muslim view- thats not opne handed

      On this issue for example he will scream about Arab antisemitism. He has never posted a blog condemning Jewish anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia.

    29. fug — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:15 pm  

      im sure there are lots of israelis roaming around iraq being generally evil. people are correct to be wary given their nefarious intent, but not so much as to be closed from good things.

      i think the general ban of folks with israeli passports and stamps is a good one. muslim countries should ask themselves, what are the actual benefits of relations with this israel and how they may use them.

      meanwhile non muslim majority countries can supply them with labour!

    30. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:20 pm  

      Al Muhajiroun are loonies

      Understatement.

      and outcasts in the UK Muslim community.

      I think that point really needs to be hammered home to the British public as a whole (for all our sakes), and especially to Anjem Choudary himself. He needs to be made aware in unequivocal terms that he doesn’t actually have the support and power base amongst the majority UK Muslim community that he claims to have.

      They havent been appointed as its representative as Lieberman has.

      As above, since Choudary’s appointed himself as the UK Muslim community’s representative.

      **********************

      Anyway, this is semi-off-topic. Carry on, folks.

    31. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:28 pm  

      hahahah are you serious? He is a rabid partisan.
      There is rarely a position involving Muslims where he doesnt take the anti-Muslim view- thats not opne handed

      Kind of meaningless when spouted by anyone for whom there is no position involving Islamist and Jihadist tendencies which are not excused, not to mention glorified, or attributed as the only form of political expression for any collection of people who self-identify as Muslims.

    32. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:31 pm  

      There is rarely a position involving Muslims where he doesnt take the anti-Muslim view- thats not opne handed

      That’s not actually true. Sid has frequently taken a critical viewpoint in relation to certain negative interpretations of Islam and incidents of negative behaviour by Muslims which he disagreed on points of principle, morality or theology, but he certainly doesn’t have an adversarial stance towards either Islam or Muslims per se; in fact, there have been numerous precedents on this blog where Sid has quite aggressively argued against people he regarded as being unjustifiably bigotted towards Muslims (it’s possible you’re just not aware of this, Munir, as the major incidents occurred before you started commenting on PP).

      i think the general ban of folks with israeli passports and stamps is a good one. muslim countries should ask themselves, what are the actual benefits of relations with this israel and how they may use them.

      “Collective guilt” isn’t a good road to go down morality-wise, Fug. One may as well suggest that the UK and the US should completely ban all folks wishing to visit or immigrate from Pakistan, by that logic, since a disproportionate number of terrorist plots against the UK and the US currently involve people originating in that country.

    33. Imran Khan — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:38 pm  

      Chairwoman - Over the past few months there has been an unusual and recurring theme with you in regards to any Israel issue and that is that its always the fault of the Arabs/Muslims and Israel is forced into this.

      Israel has been lurching to the right and racsism is increasing and it isn’t all the fault of Arabs/Muslims/War etc. It is the people and their own thoughts.

      The Muslim world is a minimal threat to Israel but it is a threat that has been built up by the right and people accept it. It is the politics of fear.

      Sadly you are out of step with most mainstream Jewish Organisations including many rightist ones here in the UK who had said that they would find it difficult to support the government that Bibi is putting together.

      I think the time has come when you need to acknowledge failings and extreme tendancies in your own community and not excuse them.

      Sid - I think you are a lost cause when you ignore the trends that mainstream pro-Israel organisations ackowledge and say they would find hard toi suppoirt and you come on here and try to imply it isn’t so!

      You are quite happy to bash Muslims on every little thing and are so pro-Israel that they can’t do any wrong.

      A racist government is just that racist and no excuses can be made for it.

      It is a shame that people are apologising and accepting what is a racist government.

      It is a shame that Jews who led anti-racism movements find it so hard to acknowledge that part of their own community is now just taht and it needs to be addressed. Blind support of racism is support of racism.

    34. fug — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:47 pm  

      jai, like i said exceptions should be considered. Maybe there are other ways of approaching the israel problem. but they should not be done on the bastard states term.

      These bans force us muslims to think very carefully about going to palesrael and in a way send a signal to israelis that they should change their country’s ways. maybe refuseniks should be granted special access.

      There is an issue of how islamically ethical a social boycott actualy is, it doesnt seem like the prophet’s way. But given current lacking of ummah countries of positive integer value, in most cases no negotiations appear a better default position than bad ones. I wouldnt want them to get screwed over in negotiations due to girly levels of negotiating power.

      There is a time for leisure and places for sextourism, which is an option israelis take in ethiopia and the bits of SE asia they are permitted to enter.

      i dont see the geographical reason you put as a symetrical one, mainly because i dont think running away from countries like pakistan is a solution to the problems there.

      i dont

    35. Imran Khan — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:48 pm  

      Oh and Chairwoman the other point is that there has always been a significant number of Israelis who do not want Arabs in Israel regardless of war or peace.

      That number is growing.

      Arabs have been deprived of fund to develop their education and resources.

      That is something that even Ariel Sharon acknowledged and promoised to address and never did.

      The fact is as Hareetz said and even the JP said that in the past this has been hidden and now that racism is out in the open. Whats sad is that people are excusing and apologising for it.

      Also youmaybe officially banned but they just turn a blind eye even in Saudi. Hell Iranian Jews even travel backwards and forwards to Israel via Cyprus and they turn a blind eye. The fact is that as the Arab world moves towards accepting Israel, Israel is turing away and becoming increasingly racsit and extreme.

      It can’t be excused, it is there and as Hareetz said it is now in the open.

      You now face a stark choice you can either condemn or excuse.

    36. Imran Khan — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:52 pm  

      Sid - Seeing as you are in such denial try reading this:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7136068.stm

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/racist-marriage-law-upheld-by-israel-478291.html

      http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html

    37. Imran Khan — on 18th March, 2009 at 1:57 pm  

      For Sid

      “Israeli Panel Cites Anti-Arab Bias
      Ties Citizens’ Deaths to Country’s Attitude

      by Charles A. Radin

      JERUSALEM — A high-level commission that investigated the police killing of 13 Arabs at the beginning of the current, three-year armed struggle between Palestinians and Israelis ruled yesterday that the root cause of the deaths was systematic discrimination by Israel against its Arab population.

      This long-term, pervasive discrimination drove Arab residents of Israel to desperate rage, the commission said, and caused police to react with undue force when the Arabs rioted in sympathy with the Palestinians of the occupied territories in early October 2000.

      The unanimous findings of the so-called Or Commission — whose members were Supreme Court Justice Theodor Or, Nazareth District Judge Hashim Khatib, and Shimon Shamir, a veteran Israeli envoy to the Arab world — marked the first time a major institution of the Israeli state has declared the existence of widespread, institutionalized prejudice against the country’s Arab minority. About 18 percent of Israel’s residents are Arabs.

      The commission also found that top political and police officials were derelict in their duties to prevent the violence, contain it once it was started, and restrain the use of lethal force by officers in the field.

      Ehud Barak, who was prime minister at the time, failed to heed warnings that serious trouble.”
      http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0902-03.htm

      In your world Israel = Always Right and Muslim World = Always Wrong.

    38. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:00 pm  

      Sid - I think you are a lost cause when you ignore the trends that mainstream pro-Israel organisations ackowledge and say they would find hard toi suppoirt and you come on here and try to imply it isn’t so!

      The usual pavlovian responses from you Imran.

      Funny how one has to explain oneself over and over again to the same people on this blog.

      But here it is again. When Sunny says:

      Now, there’s no doubt that anti-semitism features quite prominent in religious discourse across the Middle East. But that anti-Arab racism is also so high is quite shocking.

      Sunny raised the spectre of race in his article without so much as a link to define his context.

      But having done so and published, My question to him was to ask for further clarification and context: Is he talking about racism against Arabs in Israel? Are we discussing racism of Arabs in Israel as opposed to the more deletrious and widely accepted suppression of the Palestinians in Gaza by Israel? Is he suggesting that motivation behind said suppression in racist in nature?

      If so, is he saying that there is a kind of apartheid operated by Israeli authorities? Is that the thrust of this article because if so, becasuse that’s a separate charge from the usual dynamics of I/P discussions we have here and another can of worms for the usual ghouls to feed off.

      But let’s not forget, that if we’re talking about *race*, then it’s a two-way street.

    39. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:04 pm  

      In your world Israel = Always Right and Muslim World = Always Wrong.

      grow up mate.

    40. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:07 pm  

      “They havent been appointed as its representative as Lieberman has.”

      Jai
      “As above, since Choudary’s appointed himself as the UK Muslim community’s representative.”

      Desperate stuff. Lieberman has been given an official governmental position. He is now teh state of Israels foreign secretary -its David Milliband -its face to the world.

      You compare this to a self agrandising publicity seeker making a claim for himself.

      Its like saying that if you claim to be leader of India we should take you as seriously as Mamohan Singh.

    41. Imran Khan — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:09 pm  

      Sid - “grow up mate.”

      Yes Dad ;-)

    42. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:11 pm  

      Funny that Sid ties himself to a left against “right-wing Islamists” (from the Muslim minority) in the UK but when it comes to Israel ignores the Israeli left and its condemnation of anti-Arab racism and takes positions more akin to the Israel right towards Arabs.

      The common demoninator is hostility to Arabs and Muslims.

    43. Imran Khan — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:18 pm  

      Sid - “But let’s not forget, that if we’re talking about *race*, then it’s a two-way street.”

      Sid to put it bluntly then both sides are racist. Some Arabs/Muslims are racist toiwards Jews and some Jews are racist towards Arabs.

      One is highlighted (rightly) and condemned (rightly) and one is ignored (wrongly) and excused (wrongly).

      The reason you are having to explain to a simpleton like me and others is because youi are not being clear.

      You original comment implied that you didn’t accept what he said.

      I think over here the Jewish Community is at the forefront to tackling Islamophobia and for that they are to be thanked but when it comes to Israel and racism they put their head in the sand and say it isn’t so.

      Its liek the caes of the skinheads in Israel many Israeli’s were shocked taht it could happen there. It does happen there and Arabs bear the brunt. The only difference is that Lieberman is honest in bringing it out into the open.

      BTW and interesting sidenote is that despite the fact that Jews are banend many Arabs prefer doign business with Jews than Muslim Asians!

    44. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:21 pm  

      Imran - Fear isn’t a choice, I am aware of that every time I see a spider. I am not denying that there is anti Arab feeling in Israel, or that it is increasing. I am going to call it a great shame, because that is what it is in both interpretations of the phrase. But I remain convinced that the prejudice, as with most prejudices, stems from fear, and I would hope that our concerns would be to stop the fear on both sides, as I am sure that Arabs feels exactly the same way.

      There is a tendency here these days to forget that Jews and Arabs are half brothers, and I am going to admit quite freely, that although I am fairly non-observant myself, I have more in common with the Muslim ethos than with the Christian. There are commenters here whose main purpose seems to be to drive the two communities apart rather than create cohesion. As I have said here many times, we, here in the UK, should start the ball rolling by showing how well the two communities can live side by side. After all, when the MCB started, they approached for advice, and were helped by the Jewish Board of Deputies. We shouldn’t let war in the middle east break out in Great Britain.

      As for Leiberman, here we see what happens when there’s too much of a protest vote (BNP protest voters please take note), coupled with the dreaded PR. Nobody wanted to form a Government with Netanyahu, so his options were form a Government with Leiberman or don’t form a Government at all. And which male politician is going to do that.

    45. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:25 pm  

      Jai
      ““Collective guilt” isn’t a good road to go down morality-wise, Fug”

      Funny because its what Israel applies to the people of Gaza. You dont agree with that do you Jai (the not a Muslim hater)?

    46. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:27 pm  

      chairwoman
      “We shouldn’t let war in the middle east break out in Great Britain.”

      Do wish you could pass this message on to Richard Desmond and Melanie Phillips

    47. Sunny — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:27 pm  

      I was hoping there would be one thread where it wouldn’t descend into a stupid slagging match.

      Sid - how do you mean you want me to justify shockingly high levels of racism. If half the white British population said they wouldn’t want to be next to a brown person, you wouldn’t find that worrying and shockingly high? Wtf?

      Also, that incident regarding the Israeli tennis player was completely stupid. I’m glad Dubai got fined heavily. They should stop sports tournaments in Dubai if they can’t be open regarding their policies.

      Now - can the usual suspects stop bickering?

    48. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:37 pm  

      You dont agree with that do you Jai (the not a Muslim hater)?

      Obviously not, Munir. Or the prejudice towards Israeli Arabs exhibited by approximately half of the Jewish people involved in the surveys mentioned in Sunny’s main article.

    49. munir — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:37 pm  

      Imran Khan
      “I think over here the Jewish Community is at the forefront to tackling Islamophobia and for that they are to be thanked ”

      I think you are deluded -that simply isnt the case.
      In fact many of the major Islamophobes in the UK are Jewish.

    50. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:42 pm  

      munir - just out of curiosity, in which part of the UK do you live?

    51. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:54 pm  

      Desperate stuff. Lieberman has been given an official governmental position. He is now teh state of Israels foreign secretary -its David Milliband -its face to the world.

      You compare this to a self agrandising publicity seeker making a claim for himself.

      Not “desperate” at all, Munir, or even an attempt at a direct comparison. You mentioned Al Muhajiroun, I commented on the matter since they’ve obviously had a little more publicity than usual during the past week, then I realised that it’s an off-topic discussion and therefore closed the conversation. End of story.

      It certainly wasn’t an attempt to imply reciprocity with Lieberman, if that’s what you’re implying — hence my silence in relation to the latter in my own posts.

      I am extremely hostile towards Al Muhajirioun and Anjem Choudary, along with anyone else with a similar fanatical and supremacist mindset. This certainly does not automatically imply hostility towards Muslims per se, or automatic sympathy with any other group or individual that is unjustifiably hostile towards individual Muslims or Muslims as a whole.

      Not that I need to defend myself, given the fact that there is zero evidence on this blog supporting your allegations and indeed the mass of evidence to the contrary, but your repeated unsolicited, unjustified and inappropriate remarks about “Muslim hater” are childish and becoming a little tiresome. I suggest you find another target if you’re looking for a suitable scapegoat on whom to vent your frustrations.

    52. Sid — on 18th March, 2009 at 2:56 pm  

      Sid - how do you mean you want me to justify shockingly high levels of racism. If half the white British population said they wouldn’t want to be next to a brown person, you wouldn’t find that worrying and shockingly high? Wtf?

      Dear lord. You publish an article on Avigdor Lieberman becoming the next FM of Israel. You then include the loose, arbitrary point:

      Now, there’s no doubt that anti-semitism features quite prominent in religious discourse across the Middle East. But that anti-Arab racism is also so high is quite shocking. How the hell Obama is going to resolve this is anyone’s guess.

      And when asked to clarify the kind of anti-Arab racism you mean (please see my comment #38) you say:

      If half the white British population said they wouldn’t want to be next to a brown person, you wouldn’t find that worrying and shockingly high? Wtf?

      Funny, I thought you were addressing racism in the ME.
      And I’m not asking you to *justify* racism! :-D

    53. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 3:03 pm  

      given the fact that there is zero evidence on this blog supporting your allegations and indeed the mass of evidence to the contrary,

      Although let’s be honest, I suspect you’re already perfectly aware of the above, eh Munir mundea ;)

    54. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 3:05 pm  

      munir - I don’t want to visit you for heaven’s sake, it’s just that you sound as though you don’t actually know any/many Jews!

    55. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 3:13 pm  

      What a load of whataboutery!

      Here is an Israeli government making Lieberman its foreign minister. He is a fascist. And we are discussing semantics.

      This is a clear message that the palestinians and israeli arabs do not have a place in a country whose borders will never be defined until it has all it wants and or until it gets away with all it can.

      Chairwoman, I am disappointed in your stance. Here is a country which is clearly a place of last refuge for you and yet do not see what is happening. By time you exercise your option to go to Israel I believe either Israel will have disintegrated (to use that well-worn political phrase, ‘through its own internal contradictions’) or it will become an unbearable place to be a citizen of.

      I am sure neither of those are what you want.

      I did want to discuss what makes up the Israeli population, because I do think we can destroy the myth that it is democratic by nature. You only have to look at its population groups and all that seems to bind is its army, everyone is/was/will be in the army; its resentment of past wrongs at the hands of the europeans; and its ingrained racism against the arabs; and finally the desparate need to vilify the muslim world as a means of rallying external forces for its protection.

      Israel is a mischievous nation. It needs to work with its neighbours, not kick the shit out of them and then weep tears of fear.

    56. Jai — on 18th March, 2009 at 3:44 pm  

      Chairwoman,

      munir - I don’t want to visit you for heaven’s sake, it’s just that you sound as though you don’t actually know any/many Jews!

      Agreed. It sounds as though he doesn’t know many Sikhs (and possibly Hindus) either, at least not very well.

      It would also be helpful to know approximately how old Munir is, because he frequently comes across as much younger than most commenters on PP too (along with living in a fairly cloistered social environment). Munir, are you still at university or in your very early 20s ?

      In the interests of fairness, I’ll go first: I’m approximately in my mid-thirties. How about you ?

    57. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 3:44 pm  

      “Israel is a mischievous nation. It needs to work with its neighbours, not kick the shit out of them and then weep tears of fear.”

      The Levant is a mischievous area, and they all need to work with their neighbours, stop fighting, and stop fearing.

    58. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 3:49 pm  

      And I think the semantics are important. We should use the real words, racist, bigot, bully, bastard. Fascist is far too grandiose, redolent of immaculate uniforms, shiny medals and high polished boots.

      Let’s use the dirty words that truly describe what the person is.

    59. The Common Humanist — on 18th March, 2009 at 4:24 pm  

      Brothers and Sisters….hammertime.

      No really, we have actually reached a consensus - Lieberman is a nasty wingnut and it is shameful that Israelis have elected him.

      Yet another action that makes Israel harder to defend.

      Pants.

    60. Ed — on 18th March, 2009 at 4:53 pm  

      chairwoman
      “As for Leiberman, here we see what happens when there’s too much of a protest vote (BNP protest voters please take note),”

      Comparing the two extremists BNP and Lieberman is wrong in one respect: Britain and Israel are conceptially completely different states.

      The BNPs platform is a white-only Britain shorn of its non-white minorities; Liebermans of a Jewish-only Israel sans Arabs.

      But Britain is not ideaologically ” a White state”. No one here believes that (aside from aforementioned racists), it is not promoted in any way as such, so in pushing for a whites-only state the BNP is going against the ethos of the nation.

      Israel however is ideaologically a “Jewish state” - there is consensus on this from all major parties, media and public. So Lieberman is simply taking “Israel” to its logical conclusion -from a Jewish state to a state only for Jews is a logical progression

    61. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 5:02 pm  

      So Lieberman is simply taking “Israel” to its logical conclusion -from a Jewish state to a state only for Jews is a logical progression

      What do you mean by “Israel”? It actually exists whether you like it or not.

      And I do get rather tired of the assumption here that all the Jewish citizens of Israel have only the basest of motives.

    62. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 5:22 pm  

      Chairwoman, the rest of the world has to look at Israel’s actions and its demands to judge its ethos and that of its citizens. By electing Lieberman and now having him as foreign minister is a kick in the face for all those that sought an early conclusion to the conflict.

      What we don’t know or understand is where Lieberman will take Israel. I believe he is a fascist, he enjoys the notion of using unrelenting brutality to get what he wants and soon he could be in charge, of a militarised nation with gleaming warheads. He has to be stopped.

    63. RedSeaPedestrian — on 18th March, 2009 at 5:28 pm  

      “By electing Lieberman and now having him as foreign minister is a kick in the face for all those that sought an early conclusion to the conflict.”

      You act as if the people of Gaza did not elect a “fascist” government which is still in power. Unfortunately, we already know and understand all too well what direction Hamas has taken their constituents.

    64. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 5:35 pm  

      Refresh - I very much doubt that many of those who voted for him as a protest vote, and I read a lot of Israeli blogs across the political spectrum, expected his party to get so many MKs, and certainly not to see him as Foreign Secretary.

      Although this is a political disaster, I am taking a pragmatic view that his rhetoric is all mouth and trousers. After all, we’re always being told that although the Hamas charter calls for the elimination of Israel, they don’t really mean it.

      What’s sauce for the goose etc., Meanwhile I shall keep my powder dry until I see what actually happens. I just wish that the centre left parties would swallow their pride and join the coalition government to keep a reign on things generally.

    65. Rumbold — on 18th March, 2009 at 5:37 pm  

      Let us take the examples of Lieberman and compare him to Hamas. We can find points of comparison; both parties have been framed as being vehemently opposed to the ‘other side’, yet other factors also played a part in their elections. In Hamas’ case it was the corruption of Fatah that led to their rise, and Lieberman has won support from secularists who believe that the ultra-orthordox have too much power in Israel.

      That is not to say that either party are in any way likeable, just that if we put their success solely down to hatred we are missing the point.

    66. RedSeaPedestrian — on 18th March, 2009 at 6:13 pm  

      “I was hoping there would be one thread where it wouldn’t descend into a stupid slagging match.”

      If this is true, I would recommend avoiding snide comments in your postings. Remarks such as “Who shall we blame for this? I know, Hamas!” do not make for productive debate. In fact, it is the first volley in a stupid slagging match.

    67. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 6:17 pm  

      What has Hamas got to do with Lieberman becoming Foreign Minister of Israel?

      Protest vote or no protest vote, we have the most right wing government Israel’s ever seen and its core support is looking for a more agressive stance.

      Whereas Netanyahu drew his line at No to a Palestinian state, his partner enhances it by calling for no arabs in Israel. War on Iran would just be the icing on the cake.

      Lieberman is being toasted for being a genius. Who would have thought that anyone could have come up with a scheme for trading its own citizens for land. Forget land for peace.

      To me it underlines the fundamental problem of Israel claiming to be a democracy - Lieberman is probably far more honest than most Israeli politicians. Twenty per cent of Israeli citizens are an inconvenience and the time has come to resolve this little idiosyncracy.

    68. chairwoman — on 18th March, 2009 at 6:31 pm  

      ,
      What has Hamas got to do with Lieberman becoming Foreign Minister of Israel?

      It didn’t have to be Hamas. It could have been any politico who makes outrageous promises in their manifesto but doesn’t carry them out when in power.

      A democracy is one man one vote. Are you going to pretend that didn’t happen?

    69. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 6:38 pm  

      No, but I’v no idea why that came up.

    70. The Dude — on 18th March, 2009 at 7:15 pm  

      As a member of the human race and the family of man, I think I’ve got the right to travel or live anywhere upon the face of the planet earth, irrespective of my race, gender, culture or religion. Give me land, lots of land and the open skies above. Don’t fence me in.

    71. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 8:00 pm  

      ‘Robert Fisk: Why Avigdor Lieberman is the worst thing that could happen to the Middle East

      World Focus: I can identify Lieberman’s language with the language of Messrs Mladic and Karadzic and Milosevic’

      http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-avigdor-lieberman-is-the-worst-thing-that-could-happen-to-the-middle-east-1647370.html

    72. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 8:56 pm  

      ‘I just wish that the centre left parties would swallow their pride and join the coalition government to keep a reign on things generally.’

      I believe if these others joined in, then that would give legitimacy to this odious man, Netanyahu and his supporters and fellow-travellers. From there it can only get worse.

      The centre-left (so called), must develop a parallel movement so that come the next election these thugs are given the push in very much the same way as Bush and Cheney were.

      The peace movement in Israel needs to learn from what Obama achieved in pulling the US out of neocon grasp, and look to do the same. With a view to washing away all those failed politicians from Kadima, Labour etc.

      Obama and Brown and others need to open up a dialogue with progressive forces, withold any political and financial support, and of course push ahead with talks with all mid-east parties regardless of what Netanyahu and Liebermann want. Netanyahu is a close associate of the neocons in the US, politically it should be easy for Obama to sideline the incoming administration. And here is the danger for Obama. Netanyahu will be working for a resurgent neoconservatives in opposition to the clearly expressed wish of the US electorate.

      Obama needs to show that the Likud movement is the fundamental obstacle to peace in the middle east; and that AIPAC is a Likud front. This should be easier to do with Liebermann as the face of Israel.

    73. ldw — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:10 pm  

      as to what some israelis actually think about lieberman and whether or not he’s more of a racist than a fascist (or the other way around) i recommend the following entry from lisa goldman’s blog “on the face.” there’s an accompanying video clip for which she provides a translation/summary.

      http://lisagoldman.net/2009/02/12/eretz-nehederet-skit-liebermans-israel-the-day-after-the-elections/#comments

      in my opinion, whatever label we want to stick on him, he’s going to be one nasty piece of work.

    74. fug — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:32 pm  

      big love the the palestinians whose endurance will no doubt be tested even more.

      it was important for bush and cheney to demonstrate the ugliness inherent in that worst part of the american political sector. this is the time for the bastard state’s leaders to undo all the sly media influences and lobbing that their minnons have done, by just being true to themselves. Israelis want lieberman, thats why they have elevated him.

      alternative streams just need to get that much more creative.

    75. The Common Humanist — on 18th March, 2009 at 10:39 pm  

      When my sister lived in the Ukraine it was possible for a few hundred USD to buy Soviet Jewish Papers and hence be eligible under Perestroika and then Yeltzin (and in the Ukraine) to emigrate to Israel. Call me cynical but Israels steady descent into Far Right Land seems to have been accelerated by the arrival of, lets be honest, people from countries who have elavated xenophobia to a fine art. Obviously this doesn’t apply to all from the former Soviet Union but anyone who has spent any time ‘in his cups’ with former Sovs knows it doesn’t take long for anti-foreigner feeling to surface. IN the atmosphere of I/P I can imagine how this takes form against the Arabs.

      Oh joy. Tin foil hat anyone?? Why do I get the impression Krak Des Chevaliers will be radioactive glass by the time my Boy is old enough to appreciate a holiday in The Levant……

    76. The Common Humanist — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:00 pm  

      “the bastard state”

      Why bring Saudi into this……..?

    77. Refresh — on 18th March, 2009 at 11:24 pm  

      ‘Why do I get the impression Krak Des Chevaliers will be radioactive glass by the time my Boy is old enough to appreciate a holiday in The Levant……’

      And the rest of the middle east. Yesterday a talking head on Radio 4 news, whilst agreeing that Gordon Brown had finally accepted that Iran had a right to develop nuclear power - it should not happen as it would get in the way of some war we may be fighting in 50 years time. On the basis that the war could turn any Iranian nuclear power station into a Chernobyl-sur-La-Gulf. I presume from the bombing we will be compelled to undertake. And that it would be hazardous to our troops on the ground.

      Talk about forward planning!

    78. Refresh — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:30 am  

      If I may, I’d like to add to my comment at #72.

      A golden opportunity exists for the West, to put Netanyahu and Liebermann in their place. Even now no reconstruction material is being allowed into Gaza.

      The quartet should provide all the cover needed for the Royal Navy to join other attempts in the region to build a sea-bridge to smash the blockade. My guess is that there will be an immediate withdrawal of the Israeli sea forces and the Israeli coalition will collapse.

      Shimon Peres in turn will have to stand down, he has not served his country well. And as soon as he steps down the Nobel committee responsible for his peace prize should politely and firmly ask for the return of his medal.

    79. Ben — on 19th March, 2009 at 4:33 am  

      Demanding loyalty to country is commonplace in Anglo-Saxon nations. Allegiance to the Crown is a legal obligation of every British subject, and the requirement for a public oath of fealty was recently proposed at the highest level of Government. In the USA every schoolday starts with a recitation by all students and teachers of a pledge of allegiance to the national flag. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Pakistan too demands the loyalty of its citizens - all states do.

      Lieberman is an advocate of a two-state solution. He also advocates an exchange of territory between Israel and the Palestinian state that will reduce as much as possible the number of Arab citizens of Israel and also the number of Jewish citizens of the Palestinian state. This plan is probably impractical because most Arab residents of the Meshulash, the Israeli territory designated for exchange, strongly prefer Israeli to Palestinian citizenship. Furthermore the Palestinians seem adamant in insisting on having an ethnically pure Jew-free Palestinian state when such is established. Even if the Palestinians accept that Jews may reside in their state, it is unlikely that any Jews could live safely under Palestinian rule.

      The antipathy that exists among many Israelis towards Arabs is more than fully reciprocated. Lieberman’s rise is a consequence of the collapse of the Oslo peace process, the failure of Israel’s 2005 withdrawal from Gaza to bring a cessation of anti-Israel violence, and the support of many Palestinians for the extremist policies of Hamas.

    80. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 9:00 am  

      “Even now no reconstruction material is being allowed into Gaza.”

      Perhaps somebody should whisper in Hosni Mubarak’s ear and suggest that he opens his borders then.

    81. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 9:49 am  

      “Even now no reconstruction material is being allowed into Gaza.”

      chairwoman
      “Perhaps somebody should whisper in Hosni Mubarak’s ear and suggest that he opens his borders then.”

      He doesnt listen to his people. He listens to his paymasters, the US. He’s a puppet who needs to go.

    82. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 10:00 am  

      Nice bit of whitewashing Ben

      “Demanding loyalty to country is commonplace in Anglo-Saxon nations. Allegiance to the Crown is a legal obligation of every British subject, and the requirement for a public oath of fealty was recently proposed at the highest level of Government. In the USA every schoolday starts with a recitation by all students and teachers of a pledge of allegiance to the national flag. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Pakistan too demands the loyalty of its citizens - all states do. ”

      The crown is a neutral institioun- and children in the US pledge allegiance to the idea that they are all equal

      Lieberman demands non-jewish citizens pledge allegiance to a Jewish state- one that by virtue of them being non-Jews they will permanently be third of fourth class citizens in.

      “Lieberman is an advocate of a two-state solution. He also advocates an exchange of territory between Israel and the Palestinian state that will reduce as much as possible the number of Arab citizens of Israel and also the number of Jewish citizens of the Palestinian state”

      Wow zionist sophistry and deception at its best. What you mean is Lieberman wants to keep the illegal setllements in the west bank and east jerusalem as part of an Israel state while giving Arabs a tiny piece of the worst land.

      “The antipathy that exists among many Israelis towards Arabs is more than fully reciprocated.”

      The Israelis stole the Palestinians land - not vice versa- the antipathy between a theif and his victim when the victim fights back is not the same.

      ” Lieberman’s rise is a consequence of the collapse of the Oslo peace process, the failure of Israel’s 2005 withdrawal from Gaza to bring a cessation of anti-Israel violence, and the support of many Palestinians for the extremist policies of Hamas.”

      Zionist apologisst always have excuses for the worst excess of Israeli extremism. Yet any attempt to justify this from the Palestinians (say mention why Hamas got eelcted) brings charges of “appeasement” and “anti-semitic” and other such hysterical adjectives.

    83. fug — on 19th March, 2009 at 10:47 am  

      Refresh is on a roll, though im not prone to beleiving that the agencies of white national powers represented by the quartet have the mental toughness to withstand the moaning cows and rapid dogs of the zionist lobby.

      but that course of action is a good one for them.

      TCH, saudi america is odd, but no, the bastard state is israel.

    84. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 11:13 am  

      OK I’ve had enough.

      But I would like to take this opportunity to thank Fug, Munir, Hermes and Blah (although absent from this meme), Hannah and particularly, Refresh.

      You have finally got me to understand the Israeli mindset. You are all totally intolerant and determined not to give an inch in any direction. You don’t want negotiation, you want submission. You don’t want a two state solution, you want a one state Palestine either judenrein or with Jews as Dhimmis.

      Well let me just say it’s not going to happen. We are a very small people, only twelve million, in a very big world, and we want what everybody else has, a country where we can live, should we choose to do so, without having the finger of prejudice pointed at us, according to our laws and customs, without having to say ‘thank you’ for allowing us to exist. It actually isn’t a great deal to ask. I don’t accept that we stole a country from a people. I do agree that some people had their property stolen, and that is, without doubt, wrong.

      There is no country in the world, except, perhaps, America, where we have not been made aware that we are second class citizens apart from Israel.

      Why are the Palestinians discontented? Because everybody has done them huge disservice. Not just the Jews, but the UN who have insisted that they remain refugees, the Americans and Soviets who used them as pawns in their proxy war, and the leaders of their Islamic brothers who keep them as a running sore to inflame their populations and keep their eyes off the injustices in their own countries.

      The majority of Israelis want a two state peaceful solution. Please don’t hold the crazies up for me to look at, I know who they are. The majority of Palestinians want the same. But inspired by mindsets such as I have encountered here, nobody’s going to get it. Just war, war, and more damn war. Well done you!

      But back to my original theme. Thank you all. It was here that I actually learned what it means to be a Jew, and finally, in the last twenty four hours, what it must mean to be Israeli.

    85. Ravi Naik — on 19th March, 2009 at 11:13 am  

      I am rather confused about this poll. When 68% of Israeli Jews say they do not want to live in the same building as Israeli Arabs… do they mean that they do not want to live along side a Muslim, or someone who looks middle-eastern (Arab)? A lot of Jewish people look European, so I am am wondering if this is a racial issue, or a religious one.

    86. Refresh — on 19th March, 2009 at 11:53 am  

      Chairwoman, that’s too easy.

      My comments are of despair. Its clear that no one but a movement from within Israel can turn this around, with support from the jewish diaspora.

      The palestinians do not have any influence on their own lives let alone be party to any negotiations.

    87. Jai — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:08 pm  

      Chairwoman,

      But I would like to take this opportunity to thank Fug, Munir, Hermes and Blah (although absent from this meme),

      FYI: Munir, Blah and Ed (#60) are the same person. He’s also ‘James’ on the Nick Cohen thread.

      Why he’s pretending to be several different people (and has also avoided answering our polite questions about his age and location) is anyone’s guess.

    88. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:10 pm  

      “The palestinians do not have any influence on their own lives let alone be party to any negotiations.”

      I thought I’d made that point quite succinctly in my comment.

      But the net result of the constant encouragement from the Islamic parties in the Middle East for them to accept nothing but everything is that the Palestinians have nothing, and the other Middles Eastern leaders have a bloody flag with which to rally the troops when it looks as though the troops have noticed the failings of the generals.

      Without the undoubted hardships of the Palestinians with which to distract the masses, the political face of the middle east could look very different indeed.

      You are right, it is too easy, and not just for me.

    89. Refresh — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:32 pm  

      ‘Without the undoubted hardships of the Palestinians with which to distract the masses, the political face of the middle east could look very different indeed.’

      How can I disagree with that?

    90. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:38 pm  

      chairwoman
      said

      ” You are all totally intolerant and determined not to give an inch in any direction.”

      the she said

      “You don’t want negotiation, you want submission. You don’t want a two state solution, you want a one state Palestine either judenrein or with Jews as Dhimmis.”

      Dhimmis? How tolerant. I may as well say you want a Judaic state with non-Jews as shabbos goys.
      And your use of the holocaust to justify Israels crimes and opressions of the Palestinians is pretty grotesque. You want people to forget that for centuries it was the Muslim world that shelter the Jews while Christians were exterminating them.

      i cant speak for the others but i want a two state solution. The Saudis have pushed forward one based on a comprehensive peace with all Arab/Muslim nations recognising Israel in return for a return to the pre-1967 borders. But the Israelis and the zionist lobby in the US arent interested- they want capitulation not a just lasting peace.

      By agreeing to the pre-1967 borders and recognising Isarel the Palestinians are acceptinmg that 78% of their land has gone forever. Yet teh Israelis arent even willing to give them the remaining 22%

      Do the Israelis want negotiations? No they prefer war as seen in Lebanon and Gaza

      ” We are a very small people, only twelve million, in a very big world, and we want what everybody else has, a country where we can live, should we choose to do so, without having the finger of prejudice pointed at us, according to our laws and customs, without having to say ‘thank you’ for allowing us to exist. ”

      You have every right to your own country. Just not on other people’s land.

      Why should the Palestinians have to pay for the Germans crimes?

      ” I don’t accept that we stole a country from a people”

      Then you are living in denial.

      “Why are the Palestinians discontented? Because everybody has done them huge disservice.”

      True. But it was Israel that expelled them

      “Not just the Jews, but the UN who have insisted that they remain refugees, ”

      That refugees have a right to return to the land they were expelled from is a fundamental right .

      “The majority of Israelis want a two state peaceful solution. Please don’t hold the crazies up for me to look at, I know who they are. The majority of Palestinians want the same. But inspired by mindsets such as I have encountered here, nobody’s going to get it. Just war, war, and more damn war. Well done you!”

      Hilarious when its Israel starting wars (eg Gaza) hugely supported by the populace

      “But back to my original theme. Thank you all. It was here that I actually learned what it means to be a Jew, and finally, in the last twenty four hours, what it must mean to be Israeli.”

      Oh spare us. When does the constant searching from victimhood to justify the unjustifiable expire? When
      does the license of eternal victimhood expire? You are living in the past - a reality of a different continent 70 years ago- and ignoring the realities of the world today while expecting to be taken seriously.

    91. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:39 pm  

      chairwoman

      “Without the undoubted hardships of the Palestinians with which to distract the masses, the political face of the middle east could look very different indeed.”

      Bizarre - you are arguing against yourself.
      The hardships of the Palestinians exist because the state of Israel exists!

    92. Refresh — on 19th March, 2009 at 12:51 pm  

      My point was the focus needs to be on the incoming government; and Netanyahu’s track record. Being the optimist that I am, I see a political opportunity t kick him and his movement into touch. This has got to be of interest to us all, and if its not there is a strong reason. If we understand those reasons we will know who is for and who is against any reasonable settlement.

      In the end I believe we all have a role to play, and I suspect you would have more influence than I am ever likely to have.

      Given our common loathing of Liebermann and hopefully Netanyahu’s agenda, I am inclined to help strengthen the hand of all those politica entities which can bring pressure to bear on the new government, or better still undermine it.

      Wishful thinking it may be, but there is a perfect storm brewing which could be the only opportunity for a settlement. If this opportunity is lost, then there is no where else to go but all of us back into our bunkers.

      Kid gloves and rationalisation of the Likud government is not the answer.

    93. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 1:02 pm  

      Jai
      “Chairwoman

      FYI: Munir, Blah and Ed (#60) are the same person. He’s also ‘James’ on the Nick Cohen thread.”

      WTF. You know these “facts” exactly how?
      Are you spying on PP posters?

      “Why he’s pretending to be several different people (and has also avoided answering our polite questions about his age and location) is anyone’s guess.”

      Why you are spying on the people who post here and then demanding more irrelevant information from them is the real issue.

      Makes PP stand against government snooping monumentally hypocritically.

      BTW Jai is “Hindu” the guy who posts rabid anti-Muslim screeds

    94. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 1:05 pm  

      You have every right to your own country. Just not on other people’s land.

      Sorry, I don’t agree that it is other people’s land. Jews have wanted to go ‘home’ for 2000 years.

      And your use of the holocaust to justify Israels crimes and opressions of the Palestinians is pretty grotesque

      Point out where I have ever done that. I very much doubt that you can.

      ““Without the undoubted hardships of the Palestinians with which to distract the masses, the political face of the middle east could look very different indeed.”

      Bizarre - you are arguing against yourself.
      The hardships of the Palestinians exist because the state of Israel exists!”

      Don’t be so ingenuous! To keep people in the conditions that the UN and your co-religionists do for political means is disgusting beyond belief. How many of the Palestinians would, if asked anonymously, do you think would choose to live in the open sewers that are the so-called refugee camps rather than in a decent home in Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Lebanon?

      To make them live in those conditions is political correctness gone mad. The people who insist on those conditions being as they are are not likely to be living like that themselves.

      “But back to my original theme. Thank you all. It was here that I actually learned what it means to be a Jew, and finally, in the last twenty four hours, what it must mean to be Israeli.”

      It was on this site where I was first aware of the antisemitism that is rampant in your community. And, no, it’s not just our old friend anti-Zionism, people chant ‘Kill the Jews’ not ‘Kill the Israelis’. Well gee, thanks, but at least I won’t die ignorant, will I?

    95. Ravi Naik — on 19th March, 2009 at 1:39 pm  

      WTF. You know these “facts” exactly how?
      Are you spying on PP posters?

      Because it is rather obvious. And it is really pathetic and sad that you would create imaginary people to agree with you.

      BTW Jai is “Hindu” the guy who posts rabid anti-Muslim screeds

      Nope. You are totally clueless.

    96. Jai — on 19th March, 2009 at 1:52 pm  

      Thanks Ravi.

      **************************************

      Are you spying on PP posters?

      No Munir, although you should be aware that the moderators of this website are keeping a close eye on such activities. Including your ongoing attempts to pass yourself off as different commenters.

      Why you are spying on the people who post here and then demanding more irrelevant information from them is the real issue.

      Identifying people who are playing games with both this blog’s moderators and other commenters (something people like Sid and Ravi have also clearly noticed) is very relevant indeed. As is requesting your approximate age, as it would help to place your behaviour into its proper context.

      BTW Jai is “Hindu” the guy who posts rabid anti-Muslim screeds

      I think you know very well that isn’t true, especially as that particular individual’s writing style and personality are far closer to yours than to mine (or anyone else on this blog).

    97. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 2:16 pm  

      chairwoman
      “Sorry, I don’t agree that it is other people’s land.”

      Unbelievable -if land doesnt belong to the people who have inhabited it for centuries who does it belong to.

      “Jews have wanted to go ‘home’ for 2000 years. ”

      You are pushing the anti-semitic notion that Jews are always aliens in the lands they live in and their home
      is elsewhere.

      In any case thats not true - immigration to Palestine was pretty easy when it was ruled by Muslims yet the vast majority of Jews chose not to go. They held to the Orthodox opinion that no state could be created there until the Messiah came. If you had said “the last 200 years” you mightve had a point.

      No one is objecting to people visited a land with their holy sites but thats different from taking that land of its owners. Mecca and Medina (as well as Jerusalem) are my holy lands which I love to visit- doesnt mean they are my “home” or Im Meccan and not British.

      And you fail to comprehend the implications of this statemnet- if its OK for the Jews to wish to create a state on a land even after 2000 years it is OK for the Palestinians to wish to do the same for the next 2000 years.

      munir
      “And your use of the holocaust to justify Israels crimes and opressions of the Palestinians is pretty grotesque”

      chairwoman
      “Point out where I have ever done that. I very much doubt that you can.”

      You used the term judenrein, the expulsion/extremination of Jewish citizens in European lands, to compare the opposition to illegal Jewish settlements in the Ocuppied territories.

      Its like saying a law abiding Muslim citizen and a Muslim who is a criminal are both the same because… well they are both Muslims.

      The settlers are almost to a Rabbi exterme religious fanatics whose presence it THE main obstacle to peace- yet you defend them - while claiming to be moderate

      “How many of the Palestinians would, if asked anonymously, do you think would choose to live in the open sewers that are the so-called refugee camps rather than in a decent home in Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Lebanon?”

      With typical dishonesty you fail to mention the thing the Palestinians want - to return to the homes they were expelled from in Palestine as international law demands

      “To make them live in those conditions is political correctness gone mad. ”

      This is one of the stupidest use of this term I have ever heard. What do you mean?

      “The people who insist on those conditions being as they are are not likely to be living like that themselves.”

      You perfectly describe the Israelis and their blockade of Gaza.

      “It was on this site where I was first aware of the antisemitism that is rampant in your community. And, no, it’s not just our old friend anti-Zionism, people chant ‘Kill the Jews’ not ‘Kill the Israelis’. Well gee, thanks, but at least I won’t die ignorant, will I?”

      Who on earth has said that? And how do you know they were Muslims?

      No doubt you are working night and day to fight the rampant anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia in the Jewish community which is far more pernicious(which indeed this post is mentioning a facet of) . One doesnt need to go to relatively obscure blogs to see this stuff -just walk into a newsagent and pick up the Daily express or Daily Mail.

    98. Ben — on 19th March, 2009 at 4:06 pm  

      “…so I am wondering if this is a racial issue or a religious one…”

      It’s also a class and cultural issue, and should not be difficult for anyone in Britain to recognize. There are similar problems in Israel between religious and non-religious Jews, though the reasons for them are different.

      Some Jews consider Arabs to be uneducated, rough, coarse and violent. There are also severe social problems in some parts of the Arab sector - drugs and crime among them. Also, Arabs are often very conservative in their customs relating to women and girls, and this leads to behaviour that is contrary to the norms in Jewish Israeli society.

      Our family often spends the summer with the grandparents, who live in an apartment building in one of Israel’s mixed Arab-Jewish towns. Four of the six apartments have Arab owners, two Jewish, and relations among the neighbours are normal. The Arab neighbour’s girl, an 18 year-old, was going out with a man the parents disapproved of. The father called in his brother, who beat her severely, and thus forced her to break off her friendship. My daughter was shocked by what happened. This type of clash of values makes living together problematic.

    99. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 4:19 pm  

      Ben
      ” The Arab neighbour’s girl, an 18 year-old, was going out with a man the parents disapproved of. The father called in his brother, who beat her severely, and thus forced her to break off her friendship. My daughter was shocked by what happened. This type of clash of values makes living together problematic.”

      Wow based on one case you extrapolate against an entire race. Nasty racist stuff Ben.

      If only the Arabs were as tolerate of relationships as Israelis
      http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

      and to remind you
      “Sixty-eight percent of Israeli Jews would refuse to live in the same apartment building as an Israeli Arab, according to the results of an annual poll released Wednesday by the Center for the Struggle Against Racism… Forty-six percent of Jews would refuse to allow an Arab to visit their home while 50 percent would welcome an Arab visitor. Forty-one percent of Jewish support the segregation of Jews and Arabs in places of recreation and 52 percent of such Jews would oppose such a move.”

      Does your daughetr also find a clash of values with IDF soldiers beating up Palestinian women and children or shooting Palestinian Children.

    100. munir — on 19th March, 2009 at 4:21 pm  

      The whole of the article I linked to deserves posting

      ‘Marriage to an Arab is national treason’

      Recent poll reveals steep rise in racist views against Arabs in Israel; many participants feel hatred, fear when overhearing Arabic, 75 percent don’t approve of shared apartment buildings

      Over half of the Jewish population in Israel believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason, according to a recent survey by the Geocartography Institute.

      The survey, which was conducted for the Center Against Racism, also found that over 75 percent of participants did not approve of apartment buildings being shared between Arabs and Jews. Sixty percent of participants said they would not allow an Arab to visit their home.

      Five hundred Jewish men and women participated in the poll, which was published Tuesday.

      According to the survey, racism against Arabs in Israel has seen a sharp rise since a similar survey was conducted two years ago.

      In 2006, 247 racist acts against Arabs were reported, as opposed to 225 one year prior.

      About 40 percent of participants agreed that “Arabs should have their right to vote for Knesset revoked”. The number was 55 percent lower in the previous survey. Also, over half of the participants agreed that Israel should encourage its Arab citizens to immigrate from the country.

      Over half of the participants said they would not want to work under the direct management of an Arab, and 55 percent said “Arabs and Jews should be separated at entertainment sites”.

      ‘Arab culture inferior’

      Participants were asked what they felt when they overheard someone speaking Arabic. Thirty-one percent said they felt hatred, while 50 percent said they felt fear.

      Over 56 percent of participants said they believed that Israel’s Arab citizens posed both a security and a demographic threat to the country.

      When asked what they thought of Arab culture, over 37 percent replied, “The Arab culture is inferior.”

      “The Center Against Racism has set itself a goal to monitor all racial incidents against Arab citizens, and to fight racism as much as possible under the law through public action,” the center’s annual report said.

      Bachar Ouda, the center’s director, said the survey’s findings were worrisome, and urged the government to intervene in the situation.

      “We call on the education minister to take the gloves off and deal with the issue seriously, because it is dangerous to coexistence. We call on the state prosecutions office, and the attorney general to take action,” Ouda said.
      http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

    101. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 5:13 pm  

      Munir - I have no intention of dissecting your latest rant bit by bit. I would just take issue with you on two points.

      Judenrein means Jew free. Like Saudi Arabia is. No Jews. Gone. Not there.

      Get it?

      And I assume the people with antisemitic views on this site are Muslims because they have Islamic names. I accept that there is a possibility that they are all either White Anglo Saxons or renegade Jews in disguise, but I believe that to be remote.

      Just accept this, there’s no point in ranting at me any more. I substantially disagree with your opinions on this subject. Far from converting me to your point of view, I find myself becoming digging my heels in and saying ‘Never again’.

      One more thing. I did not explain myself correctly on one point. I am of the opinion that all Palestinians who lost their homes should be generously compensated. I would suggest something along the lines of triple the value of the property at today’s value, plus substantial interest over the past sixty years. Unfortunately I had lent my laptop to a friend for a couple of hours an have only just got it back.

      And despite everything, I have been unfailingly polite to you, and have neither called you stupid, nor dishonest.

      Your lack of manners do your parents no credit.

    102. Rumbold — on 19th March, 2009 at 5:21 pm  

      Munir:

      Jai doesn’t need to have access to our systems to recognise that you, James and Ed are all one and the same. Your writing styles are identical. It says a lot that you feel the need to do this.

    103. Jai — on 19th March, 2009 at 6:03 pm  

      Thanks Rumbold.

      It also says a lot that Munir feels the need to repeatedly — and deliberately — make false allegations about other commenters when “debating” with them as an attempt to bully them into silence whenever they pose a threat to his position, whether it’s calling me “anti-Muslim” (while knowing perfectly well that I am not) or stating in #93 that I was masquerading as “Hindu” (again, while being well aware that it wasn’t me), or indeed the numerous spurious assertions he makes about various other commenters here too, frequently involving alleged traits and behaviour patterns that he’s a textbook example of himself.

      Along with the attempts to masquerade as multiple commenters, it all makes a mockery of Munir’s recent claim of adhering to the Islamic injunction that “A Muslim shouldn’t lie to a non-Muslim”.

      Munir, I expect you’ll retaliate by claiming that my comments above demonstrate that I am indeed “anti-Muslim”. In fact, if you have any guts at all, I challenge you to say that.

      Unless you’ve decided that, like “Me” and “Blah” previously, “Munir” has now been discredited, and after a suitable brief period of silence you plan to turn up on PP under yet another new username.

      So what’s it going to be ? Do you accept my challenge — preferably with tangible proof to support your assertion — or should we await another creative example of your proven ability to fabricate an endless list of false aliases ?

    104. Imran Khan — on 19th March, 2009 at 6:20 pm  

      To all those who happily defend Israel. Well here are the damning accounts of cold blooded murder in Gaza by Israeli Soldiers who witnessed them.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7952603.stm

      Israel troops admit Gaza abuses
      “An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers’ accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

      One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

      Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the “cold blooded murder” of a Palestinian woman.”

      ….

      “”The climate in general… I don’t know how to describe it…. the lives of Palestinians, let’s say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers,” an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.”

      ….

      “In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.”

      “One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.

      “I don’t know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don’t know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder,” he said. ”

      “The soldiers’ testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.
      A wounded Palestinian child is carried into the Kamal Adwan hospital after an Israeli air strike on 11 January 2009
      Palestinian civilians paid a heavy price during the three-week Israeli operation

      “All the articles had one clear message,” one soldier said. “We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land.”

      “Many soldiers’ feelings were that this was a war of religion,” he added. ”

      Well the truth is emerging and people who have defended Israel no matter what now are defending cold blooded murder. To those that keep criticising Sunny and defending DaveT where does this leave you now?

      One has stood up and spoken out against this and the other defended it blindly. Now lets see what they do?

      To Sid - You write about the Islamists threat now please do the same about this religious threat or are religious democracies exempt from your ire?

      These people were there and what took place can’t be defended. It is a disgrace and war crimes have been comitted so now each time you people defend Israel’s Gaza operations you are defending what is cold blooded murder and the soldiers of Israel on the ground have admitted this.

      Chairwoman and Katy - it is now your duty to speak out with the reats of us and also to condemn those defensive articles on HP. This can’t be defended in any way like the Islamist - it is as bad. World Jewry now needs to stand up and be counted.

      Bananabrain left because of this war and the criticism of Israel, but this makes his position indefensible.

      This is shocking and brutal and some will try and defend this but how with a clear concience can you. The grandchildren of the holocaust have become what they shouldn’t have become.

    105. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 6:40 pm  

      Imran et al - You consistantly confuse my support for the existence and continued existence of the State of Israel with support for the actions of its Government.

      I have no more problem in condemning atrocities committed by an Israeli army than I would any other, but please do not confuse my condemnation with a desire for the country to be deconstructed.

      It is a sad fact of life that in a battle situation, some soldiers from all armies behave appallingly, and all who do so should be punished accordingly.

      I have never heard Katy or Bananabrain say anything different.

    106. Imran Khan — on 19th March, 2009 at 7:03 pm  

      Chairwoman - I don’t confuse your support for existence. But here is the problem that words need to be put into action so how is Israel and its army to be brought to book as World Jewry has demanded of the Palestinians?

      People like Mel, Pipes etc. demand action with support for massive punishment for the Palestinians and checks which make aid almost prohibitive.

      So what does World Jewry do now?

      We were consistently told that Israel’s Army was above this and when it happened it woudl be punished. But its been whitewashed.

      So what now?

      Also I am not confusing the issue of your defence but equally there was almost hysteria when critical articles of Israel’s actiosn were published and each time attoricities were highlighted then we were told that Israel wasn’t so bad and they were always investigated and were not ordered but isolated. Now we are told they were ordered and it was deemed a religious war - a Jewish Religious war.

      I am afraid that there needs to be action on this issue and I for one would like to see you now stand with us as we ask HP to condemn without reservation such attrocities and call for action against those who ordered them.

      Will Stephen Pollard - friend of DaveT who has been unstinting in his support now condemn this in the most influencial paper in the community?

      Will Policy Exchange who guidelines for engagement with Muslims now set the same standards for Jewish Organisations.

      Will you support such calls?

      Will Bananabrain in his civilised blog now do something about this?

    107. chairwoman — on 19th March, 2009 at 7:08 pm  

      Will Policy Exchange who guidelines for engagement with Muslims now set the same standards for Jewish Organisations.

      I genuinely haven’t a clue what you’re talking about here, could you please explain?

    108. Imran Khan — on 19th March, 2009 at 7:19 pm  

      Also the reason that these types of things occur is because people are told its their land and the peoplewho are there have no right to be. Its a notion that leads to these problems and your original notion that Chief Rabbi’s in Israel have little sanction doesn’t hold because they were given sanction by the secular government to make this a religious war.

      The fact is that the is little condemnation and action by British Jewry.

      Also to those such as Sid who keep telling us we shouldn’t be concerned with Muslim issues abroad then why is it ok for British Jewry to effectively support a religious war in Israel and be concerned?

      Now there needs to be a clear message that this isn’t acceptable and the born again Peace Envoy has shown his bias because he hasn’t even condemned this action.

      BTW this proves that Sunny was right to publish his articles and DaveT was wrong in his support so now will Chairwoman push for DaveT to write condeming this attrocity on HP? Will HP be able to condemn Israel and demand that people be brought to account?

    109. Imran Khan — on 19th March, 2009 at 7:24 pm  

      Chairwoman - “I genuinely haven’t a clue what you’re talking about here, could you please explain?”

      Policy Exchange is a rapid right wing “think” tank who can’t keep receipts but keep writing dodgy recommendations for Muslism to be tied to.

      Their last report was on the conditions under which Government can engage with Muslim Organisations.

      What I want to know is if this rabid Pro-Israel right wing think tank will now write guidelines for engagement with Jewish Organisations given that they didn’t condemn cold blooded murder of innocent civilians by Israel?

      I said at the time and I say again the rules should apply to all faith communities and not one. So is Policy Exchange with whom New Labour and Cameron’s Tories have a love affair be willing to write criteria for government to engage with the British Jewish Community given that leading voices in that community are silent over war crimes.

    110. Imran Khan — on 19th March, 2009 at 7:26 pm  

      The central point was that Sunny was blasted for writing articles critical of Israel which with more and more evidence emerging are true. Sunny never gave editorial rights to someone to write anti-semtici articles but was still blasted.

      DaveT at HP gave editorial rights to someone who wrote an editorial which was dodgy against Muslims and he was defended.

      So where are the voices who wil condemn these actions and what do people think should be done to bring people to book.

    111. Vaszily Magyarorszag — on 19th March, 2009 at 11:13 pm  

      I think that Imram-Kahn, Refresh, and Fug, among the other Anti Semites on this page are stretching the truth.

      Refresh, some of your posts are making no sense. You keep “Refresh”ing your past sayings. Imram Kahn: You change parts of quotes by adding “Much, much” or other exagerations to them.

      Munir, I feel pity for you.
      Chairwoman, and Jai, and Ravi, and Ben, and Redseapedestrian, among others such as the dude, you are making much more sense here. Israel has the right to exist, and look at this: Every place the “Palestineans” go, they wreck every piece of civilization. BTW: I put Palestineans in quote, as Palestineans, is more of a nationality term, than an ethnic one.

      As I obviously state before, I believe Israel has the right to exist, Israel will exist for Decades if not centuries, Jews have the right to practice their religion, Iran, is leading to it’s own demise, and Arabs who want peace are being denied the rights to show their own points in their nations.

      To the world, I believe that the Civilized people of earth: Christians (+Catholics, others), Jews, most Muslims, Hindu’s, Buddhists, Shindo, Sikh, and others/Atheists, would eventually prosper. People/groups like Ahminejad, Hamas, Hizbollah, Caugh:Fatah:Caugh, are going to eventualy disintegrate, and fall like Adolf Eichman did: little specks in the ocean.

      Look at you Extremists; your people are chanting in the street that Sudan’s president should go unpunished for his murders. You support bombing. You people disgust me.

      You keep reiterating Imram in your post. Each one more ridiculous than the last.

      Palestineans already have a state: It’s called Jordan. Besides, I am sure you will make it your home within days by making it into another Somolia.

      Don’t get me wrong, some Muslims are good too, like Ataturk, the Shah, among others. If the Jews and Arabs want a two state solution, Israel should have Jerusalem. After all, the Moslems have Mecca and Medina right? The two most holy spots to Islam? Can Israel and the Jews keep Jerusalem and Hebron? The Jews two most holy spots?

      As a Hungarian Born Immigrant, though, I feel bad that so many people there were anti-semites.

    112. Refresh — on 19th March, 2009 at 11:25 pm  

      Vaszily Magyarorszag

      Look, I don’t care for the ease with which you accuse others of anti-semitism.

      I have presented a fairly robust argument:

      That it falls to the people of Israel and the jewish diaspora to correct the massive failings in the character of Israel, now openly on show since the IDF brutal campaign in Gaza. The world saw it for what it was, electioneering of the worst kind. It backfired and Israel ends up with a fascist as its foreign minister.

      Are you suggesting it is anti-semitic to ask people to support a progressive movement for a just peace in Israel?

      Seriously, if that is what passes for anti-semitism these days then things are far worse than I articulated.

    113. Vaszily Magyarorszag — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:38 am  

      Refresh: YOU are posting anti-semetic messages, and ignore it when you post new messages of Anti-Semetism. I don’t take kindly to people like you and Munir. Maybe, YOU need some re-education.

    114. blah — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:49 am  

      Vaszily Magyarorszag shows how depraved and Nazi like zionists are

      “Every place the “Palestineans” go, they wreck every piece of civilization.”

      “Palestineans already have a state: It’s called Jordan. Besides, I am sure you will make it your home within days by making it into another Somolia.”

      “As a Hungarian Born Immigrant, though, I feel bad that so many people there were anti-semites.”

    115. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 8:59 am  

      Vaszily Magyarorszag - Though I appreciate your support, I must correct your impression that Refresh is an antisemite.

      Whilst he is fiercely pro Palestinian, he is in favour of the two state solution, and has no prejudice against we Jews at all.

      Indeed, I can assure you without blinking or being facetious, that some (or at least one) of his close friends are Jewish.

      Imran too isn’t actually antisemitic and is in favour of the two state solution.

      Fug and rest of his gang however, are another matter.

    116. Ravi Naik — on 20th March, 2009 at 8:59 am  

      Vaszily Magyarorszag shows how depraved and Nazi like zionists are

      Indeed, Blah…. Vaszily Magyarorszag is a perfect caricature of the evil zionist, that you and munir like to paint. One more thing about Vaszily Magyarorszag - his cousin is Keyser Söze.

    117. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 8:59 am  

      Imran - That deserves a more measured answer, and I will be back later.

    118. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 9:02 am  

      Ravi - Tee Hee.

    119. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 9:24 am  

      Chairwoman, thanks its much appreciated - although I had hoped unnecessary.

      Its a real tragedy that we need to vouch for each other so that we can have reasoned debate. I genuinely object to this type of behaviour. Its pernicious and designed to shut down commenters.

      I believe it is more productive to force the likes of Vaszily Magyarorszag to justify themselves whenever they make accusations of that nature.

      His comments are amongst the most disgraceful we’ve seen for a while. Mazumadar, the arch ethnic cleanser, displayed a similar streak, but at least you could toy with him.

    120. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 9:38 am  

      Blah, what is the purpose of your post?

      Why does Vaszily Magyarorszag comments to me move you to use the inflammatory term ‘nazi like zionists’?

      I intend to address Vaszily Magyarorszag directly, and I will await his response before I hand him his zeroes on a plate.

      So butt out!

    121. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 9:51 am  

      Vaszily Magyarorszag

      ‘Maybe, YOU need some re-education.

      Please go ahead re-educate me.

      Tell me more about the high levels of anti-semitism you see in Hungary. Also tell me about the levels of anti-muslim bigotry that exists in Hungary. And if you have experience of other parts of Eastern Europe educate me on that too.

      The Common Humanist made an invaluable contribution in this regard at #75. It may not look it at first sight but as our re-education program progresses I am sure it will all fall into place.

      If you are honest with me and with yourself, I guarantee you will hold on to your zeroes intact. So let the lesson begin.

    122. munir — on 20th March, 2009 at 10:28 am  

      Ravi Naik

      “Indeed, Blah…. Vaszily Magyarorszag is a perfect caricature of the evil zionist, that you and munir like to paint. One more thing about Vaszily Magyarorszag - his cousin is Keyser Söze.”

      Something to give you and chairwoman some belly laughs,
      Ravi -though I wonder how the children and grandchildren of the victims of these zionists feel:

      “Another soldier, describing how a mother and her children were shot dead by a sniper after they turned the wrong way out of a house, says the “atmosphere” among troops was that the lives of Palestinians were “very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers

      In one account, an infantry squad leader describes how troops released a family who had been held in a room of their house for several days. He said: “The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn’t understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay… The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him. He shot them straight away. I don’t think he felt too bad about it, because, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to, the lives of Palestinians, let’s say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers.

      A second squad leader, who described the killing of the elderly woman, says he argued with his commander over loose rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, soldiers had complained that “we should kill everyone there [in the centre of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist.” The squad leader said: “To write ‘death to the Arabs’ on walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics.”
      “.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-dirty-secrets-in-gaza-1649527.html
      I wonder if the relatives

    123. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 10:42 am  

      Munir - Actually I read the whole piece in the Jewish Chronicle. We don’t hide from our failings and responsibilities.

      OK?

    124. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 10:52 am  

      I also doubt very much that there are Israeli women out on the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem handing out sweets to celebrate the murder of innocent civilians, nor that the perpetrators will be lauded as heroes for killing a parent and her child, and given “welcome home” celebrations.

    125. Ravi Naik — on 20th March, 2009 at 12:16 pm  

      We don’t hide from our failings and responsibilities….

      Well, recent election results in Israel suggest otherwise. There is no other term to describe IDF’s actions in Gaza: state-sponsor terrorism. The things that are being reported are unbelievable. This is not about defending the right of Israel to exist: it is about humiliating, crushing, and totally disregarding human rights. As soon as the US understands that it is not in their interests to keep feeding Israel, the better.

    126. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 12:36 pm  

      No Ravi, actually it is true. Front page news in today’s JC. Not hidden away. And certainly not lauded and applauded.

      As for humiliating, crushing, and totally disregarding human rights, I would have thought that Israel’s neighbours would have been rushing to welcome her into the fold now it appears to have have acquired, I assume by osmosis, the middle east’s ethos.

      Sure, let the US stop ‘feeding’ Israel, as you put it, as long as it stops feeding the rest of the ME crew.

    127. The Common Humanist — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:15 pm  

      Refresh @ 121:

      “The Common Humanist made an invaluable contribution in this regard at #75. It may not look it at first sight but as our re-education program progresses I am sure it will all fall into place”

      Hmmmm. My sarcasm bone is twitching. I was passing on an anecdote from my sisters life in Ukraine in the 90′s. Thats all.

    128. Jai — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:24 pm  

      So Munir, no answer to #103 ?

      If you really do think I’m ‘anti-Muslim’ as you so casually and repeatedly like to claim, why don’t you offer some hard proof ? Not speculation or guesswork — I’m talking about actual facts to support your allegation.

      Do you have the guts to do so, or is this yet another deliberate, calculated false accusation on your part ?

      I think we all know the answer.

    129. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:25 pm  

      TCH, no sarcasm intended. I think you will see that once the lesson begins.

    130. The Common Humanist — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:30 pm  

      Munir,

      I really wouldn’t start a ‘we were here first’ pissing contest with Christians and Jews about I/P.

      I/P, excluding Lebanon, wasn’t even majority muslim till the 1300s. Heavy Ottoman taxes on non-muslims in the 1600s were significant drivers of conversion.

      I/P - Largely Jewish from antiquity till the Roman expulsion in the 1st Century AD, then various Christian sects. Arab conquest introduces a muslim military elite in the 8th Century. Percentage muslim slides towards majority at a crawl over the next 700 years.

      By the Standards of the Ancient Crescent, Muslims are the young upstarts….Colonialists if you will…….

      If you accuse Jews of being colonialists in their ancient homeland….then what does that make Arabs in the Levant and the Maghreb?

      Ok, am being harsh but to start talking about who was here first but to start from the conguest of the area by muslim armies is abit short termist and misguided. I mean, it fits your islamist supremeicist mindset but don’t be surprised when a history buff like me takes a more long view.

      Chairwoman, you handle yourself with great dignity on this site in not the easiest of times. Bravo.

      I also agree with you - it is Israelis talking about the crimes committed by parts of the IDF - in a free press in a, mostly, pluralistic society (though with strains as you note). In the rest of the ME - except now possibly Iraq - this would be covered up and blamed on some outlandish conspiracy theory.

    131. The Common Humanist — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:44 pm  

      Refresh,

      “I think you will see that once the lesson begins”

      Will there be hats and t-shirts? Am only coming if there are hats and t-shirts!

    132. Jai — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:50 pm  

      TCH,

      Something to bear in mind in relation to any comments by Munir/Blah/etc.

      The guy has pretended to be multiple commenters despite having previously made an ostentatious (and, as it turns out, entirely false) claim of adhering to the Islamic injunction of not lying to non-Muslims. The same applies to his habit of deliberately making false accusations about other commenters on this website, which is a tactic utilised as a calculated attempt to undermine them.

      If he can lie persistently and blatantly about something like that, while referring to the religion he claims to hold so sacred, it raises the question of how anyone can believe the sincerity and credibility of absolutely anything else he says or does here, whether it’s the ‘facts’ he presents, his own motivations and agenda, his stance towards non-Muslims, or indeed anything he says in relation to his interpretation of Islam or Muslims in general.

      Just something to remember when engaging in any dialogue with him or reading any of his posts directed to anyone else.

      I mean, it fits your islamist supremeicist mindset but don’t be surprised when a history buff like me takes a more long view.

      Munir is already on record as being an admirer of several historical Muslim rulers who engaged in unjustified wars of aggression and territorial conquest along with committing multiple atrocities and acts of brutality against non-Muslims in the subcontinent, so don’t be surprised if your post elicits an outraged response betraying yet more hypocrisy and double-standards on his part.

    133. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 1:58 pm  

      TCH

      I hope so. As the first lesson is about anti-samitism, I have a feeling its going to be chainmail and lutes a la Monty Python and The Holy Grail:

      King Arthur: I am your king.
      Woman: Well I didn’t vote for you.
      King Arthur: You don’t vote for kings.
      Woman: Well how’d you become king then?
      [Angelic music plays... ]
      King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
      Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin’ in ponds distributin’ swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

    134. The Common Humanist — on 20th March, 2009 at 2:09 pm  

      Jai

      Point taken onboard - Must not take Munir seriously.

      Cheers

      Refresh,

      I bet I look good in chainmail!

      But surely the big question is - what is samite?

      [TCH hands quiver near key board - 'Must not start doing python quotes....must fight urge.....']

    135. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 2:23 pm  

      Common Humanist!

      You really should pay more attention.

      ‘What is samite?’

      That is the object of the first lesson, I think.

      Our fast-tracked Master Magyarorszag will have all the answers. Don will be there too, to hold his hand. Better still in a headlock.

    136. The Common Humanist — on 20th March, 2009 at 2:32 pm  

      Doh! Missed that! Sorry I missed the key pun…..[hangs head in shame]

      Ahhhhh Friday afternoons in the Office.

    137. Refresh — on 20th March, 2009 at 3:05 pm  

      Aargh!

      Why did I even bother?

    138. fug — on 20th March, 2009 at 3:17 pm  

      “Munir is already on record as being an admirer of several historical Muslim rulers who engaged in unjustified wars of aggression and territorial conquest along with committing multiple atrocities and acts of brutality against non-Muslims in the subcontinent, so don’t be surprised if your post elicits an outraged response betraying yet more hypocrisy and double-standards on his part.”

      do you always expect people to judge history through present day constructions? you have nothing positive to say about any mughal policy whatsoever? hmmm

      axes to grind or what.

    139. Jai — on 20th March, 2009 at 3:23 pm  

      Fug,

      do you always expect people to judge history through present day constructions?

      Some ‘constructions’ are eternal, whether in the present day, 500 years ago or 5000 years ago. Not everything in life is ‘relative’.

      you have nothing positive to say about any mughal policy whatsoever?

      I already have, numerous times, although in this instance I wasn’t actually just referring to one of the Mughals.

      axes to grind or what.

      No, just exposing Munir as the unashamed munafiq that he is.

    140. munir — on 20th March, 2009 at 4:45 pm  

      chairwoman
      “I also doubt very much that there are Israeli women out on the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem handing out sweets to celebrate the murder of innocent civilians”

      Suggesting you watch videos of this pro-Israel rally and the peoples delight in the slaughter

      And of course many Jewish festivals have sections delighting in the massacre of enemies including civilians. Do Israelis celebrate these?

      In Arab culture handing out sweets is done at times of celebration. Its a cultural not religious thing. In Islam “shamata al adaa” (rejoicing at the suffering of enemies) is forbidden. there is nothing remotely akin to jewish festivals like Purim in Islam.

      “, nor that the perpetrators will be lauded as heroes for killing a parent and her child, and given “welcome home” celebrations.”

      Give us a break.Numerous terrorists and murderers have been elected heads of Israel. Even those who havent been involved in slaughetr of the Palestinians/Arabs like Olmert or Lvini start wars to slaughter them so they can get more votes. A sick sick country.

    141. munir — on 20th March, 2009 at 5:01 pm  

      To those engaging in dial;ogue with Jai- just to point out he is a Sikh fundamentalist with a grudge againt Aurangzeb (may God be pleased with him) because he offered one of his Gurus. Thus because HIS religion says Aurangzeb is a baddy it must be a fact thiugh its realy a matter of faith(no matter how accurate these religious reporst may be)

      Aurangzeb is a hero to the vast majority of Muslims - a man of great religious learning and piety.

      He also has hatred for Muslims, based on history, which he tries to hide - for example referiing to the ethnic cleansing of Muslims from India to Pakistan as “arrivals” while using ethnic cleansing to describe Hindu and Sikh going in the opposite direction or implying the Muslims of what is now Pakistans wish for independence was the same as European Jews seeking to establish a colonial colony in Palestine by expelling its Arab natives.

      He has failed to answer the question put to him - in any conflict in the world involving Muslims and non-muslims does he think Muslims are right.

      “If he can lie persistently and blatantly about something like that, while referring to the religion he claims to hold so sacred, it raises the question of how anyone can believe the sincerity and credibility of absolutely anything else he says or does here, whether it’s the ‘facts’ he presents, his own motivations and agenda, his stance towards non-Muslims, or indeed anything he says in relation to his interpretation of Islam or Muslims in general.”

      Its a fascinating concept -that to talk about a religion and correct errors of others about it you must follow every single one of its precepts prefectly

      “Munir is already on record as being an admirer of several historical Muslim rulers who engaged in unjustified wars of aggression and territorial conquest”

      Unjustified according to who?

      “No, just exposing Munir as the unashamed munafiq that he is.”

      Yeah Im really going to lose sleep because some Sikh guy called me a munafiq. Its not even allowed and is a sin for the most pious Muslim scholar to say this.

      Perhaps I should start reading Guru Nanaks works about “the true Muslim is the one whose namaz is blah blah blha” to learn my religion. Lol

    142. chairwoman — on 20th March, 2009 at 5:06 pm  

      Suggesting you watch videos of this pro-Israel rally and the peoples delight in the slaughter

      Supporting Israel is not the same as ‘delighting in slaughter’.

      And of course many Jewish festivals have sections delighting in the massacre of enemies including civilians. Do Israelis celebrate these?

      I think you are confused by the thanking of the Almighty for deliverance from our foes.

      In Arab culture handing out sweets is done at times of celebration. Its a cultural not religious thing.

      Sweets were handed out to celebrate the return to Gaza of a man who directly murdered a man and his 4 year old daughter (what an immediate threat to him she must have been, eh?), and the indirect death of his other child, a babe in arms. I didn’t say it was religious. I said it happened. Do not put words into my mouth, please.

      Give us a break.Numerous terrorists and murderers have been elected heads of Israel

      I’ll give you a break. I’ll also give you Yasser Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas.

      Anyhoo, as Katy so succinctly put it on another thread,
      “Yawn”. I’ve heard this song before.

    143. Jai — on 20th March, 2009 at 5:15 pm  

      Munir,

      It’s time for you to lay your cards on the table. Here is something for you to check out:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt-j7cojBg4&feature=channel
      continued at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DtX_2ZxN8I&feature=channel

      Considering the fact that the revered and – amongst South Asians — extremely famous Muslim saint who wrote this, Bulleh Shah, forcefully opposed Aurangzeb and the interpretation of Islam the latter both practised and promoted for most of his life, this must mean that you believe Bulleh Shah himself, his Sufi order, and his own interpretation of Islam and spirituality to all be “heretical” and “unIslamic”.

      In fact, considering that the main singer in the videos above, the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, another of Pakistan’s most cherished sons, was obviously such a well-known admirer of Bulleh Shah and his work, this must also mean that you think Nusrat saab himself, his message, and his interpretation of Islam and spirituality were all “heretical” and “unIslamic” too.

      And given the fact that I’ve repeatedly expressed tremendous admiration and respect on this website for a number of historical Muslim saints from the subcontinent such as Nizamuddin Auliya, Baba Farid, Mian Mir, Lal Shahbaz Qalandar, and obviously Bulleh Shah (and, more recently, also Rahman Baba) along with the great Sufi singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan himself, yet you persist in your desperate attempts to label me as ‘anti-Muslim’ with a ‘hatred of Muslims’…..the only conclusion we can all draw is that you’re claiming that none of these venerated individuals were ‘real Muslims’, or possibly not even Muslims at all as far as you’re concerned.

      Interesting, but unfortunate and very misguided.

    144. Jai — on 20th March, 2009 at 5:19 pm  

      Incidentally, Munir, since you like to leap to your hero Aurangzeb’s defence every time anyone even briefly mentions his name in passing:

      And for those who need more background Jai is a Sikh. His bringing up Aurangzeb is no accident. Aurangzeb offed one of the Sikh Gurus so he is essential using his own religious fundamentalism to criticise others’. LOL.

      Your recent remark above (from this thread: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/3469#comment-152743 ), one you have reiterated in #141, demonstrates that you find the torture, attempted forced conversion to Islam, and subsequent public murder of the spiritual leader of another religious group in the name of Islam to be something highly amusing. This is a pretty damning indictment of your character (or lack of it), your notions of morality, your attitudes towards other human beings and your concept of spirituality. Especially for someone who likes to liberally quote from the Quran (whilst simultaneously and hypocritically using obscene language and imagery towards other commenters elsewhere on the same thread) and claims to be such a pious ‘religious’ example of the ‘true’ version of Islam.

      And that’s before we even begin to address the hypocrisy of you recently stating that “Islam instructs Muslims not to lie to non-Muslims” whilst simultaneously attempting to pass yourself off as multiple commenters under different aliases. The latter is of course a very obvious example of you blatantly lying to pretty much everyone involved in this website – moderators, authors, other commenters and the wider audience in general.

      You’re the textbook definition of a munafiq.

      By the way, regarding one of your comments directed at me in #141 above, another attempt at gratuitous cruelty and yet another stellar example of your so-called ‘piety’ and ‘morality’…..

      Aurangzeb (may God be pleased with him)

      Indeed. Because when he was on his death-bed at the very end of his life, as confirmed by his own memoirs, his letters to his sons and his amicable last-minute rapprochement with Guru Gobind Singh (that’s right, Munir, they actually had cordial relations at the end – “my religion”, as you put it, doesn’t define him as a “baddy” upon his death at all), Aurangzeb bitterly regretted his previous religiously-motivated actions, was terrified about what was going to happen to him in the afterlife as a result of his fanatical prior behaviour, ceased hostilities with his Sikh and Hindu targets…..and utterly renounced his previous policies and the fascist interpretation of Islam which you admire him so much for.

    145. Imran Khan — on 23rd March, 2009 at 3:59 pm  

      Chairwoman - What I find troubling is that you like Bananabrain always say that you have no trouble condemning the excessive actions of Israel but then when a situation arises the old line that you have no trouble condeming is wheeled out but you never actually get round to condemning such things.

      Also another standard move is to criticise the actions of Palestinians and say how you are not as bad as they are and look at what they do. Which is childish but also if you want to throw out the sweetie thing then as I recall after the Hebrom Massacre there were similar events in Hebron and Israel chose to lock up the Palestinians and not the settlers. Which Rabin himself admitted was wrong but they did it.

      There are plenty more examples such as the veneration of Baruch Goldstein but some Jews.

      However the Jewish Community and their loud right wing usually demand that Muslims condemn extremism and calls for religious war.

      Now the shoe is on the other foot there is muted silence and you yourself despite saying you would condemn such extremism haven’t actually done so.

      Why is is ok for Jews to fight religious wars and not be condemned for extremism and yet Muslims are told they can’t?

      Why is it ok for British Jews to support this and not be affected by relations with Government but not for Muslims?

      In effect now all those who marched including the Chief Rabbi in support of Israel were marching for holy war and to expel and ethnically cleanse the Holy Land of Gentiles because that is what Israel’s own soldiers have said they were told. So where is the condemnation from the Chief Rabbi from religious terms that this isn’t acceptable?

      Come on either you condemn this or you don’t?

      I have condemned extremism by Muslims but I have yet to hear you or Bananabrain do the same. DaveT isn’t even mentioning this let alone condeming this. Strange huh?

      More interestingly we have Hazel “I Love Right Wing Think Tanks” Blears refusing to talk to a member of the MCB for possibly signing a petition and yet she has made no such conditions on Jewish Organisations who we now clearly see have supported Holy War/Religious War and ethnic cleansing of Gentiles in the Holy Land as has been revealed by IDF Soldiers. So why the double standard?

    146. Imran Khan — on 23rd March, 2009 at 4:07 pm  

      BTW Just to clarify they may have supported not knowing what was being said but have remain muted since these revelatiosn occurred. So why haven’t they chosen to condemn this?

    147. chairwoman — on 23rd March, 2009 at 5:07 pm  

      I have no more problem in condemning atrocities committed by an Israeli army than I would any other, but please do not confuse my condemnation with a desire for the country to be deconstructed.

      Sorry Imran, I thought it was implicit in the above paragraph that I was condemning any atrocities committed by the IDF.

      I have not forgotten that I said I would come back to you on Jewish organisations and the Government, but need to do some research first, and have had non-stop calls upon my time for the last three days.

    148. Imran Khan — on 23rd March, 2009 at 5:52 pm  

      Chairwoman - “Sorry Imran, I thought it was implicit in the above paragraph that I was condemning any atrocities committed by the IDF.”

      Maybe it was the way I read it but it seemed to be more of a statement that you would rather than you actually condemning it.

      As I said I did find it disappointing that you chose to go down the road of look at how bad they are where as on both sides there is such behaviour and it is to be condemned equally and it doesn’t help to say oh we are not as bad as them look what they did.

      What I do find interesting is where both communities are heading now. There seems to be a realization that they need to change but getting there is difficult!

      At the moment I fear both leaderships are edging back to the norm and that is the great danger. For that I condemn them both and hope they shake out of this and have the courage to push for a proper peace.

      Equally after much vocal comment on the need to improve inter community relations between Jews and Muslims again this is slow for my liking and efforts need to be stepped up a gear.

      Shame Bananabrain isn’t here.

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