I’ll second that.

Desi, as usual, you are completely correct, but as long as the voices of diasporan Asian men are ably supported by their older female co-misogynists, they will conveniently pretend not to hear the hypocrisy of what they say…

I think you may have moved me to a blog post. THANK YOU.

(Sorry about the double post, no idea how that happened).

I’ll second that….

I would welcome the day when there are just values and not British or Asian values

The best solution is to combine both”

If I can play devil’s advocate, why is it necessary to keep and combine “Asian values”?

Often, I have found this “not losing Indian values” for diasporans often a pressure tactic to stay in line with the diasporan community’s conformity and social demands. I find it mindboggling– why should I attempt to be “Indian” if I was born and raised elsewhere? The answer is generally-but mistakenly- because of my “blood.”

I am a firm believer that people are a products of their socio-cultural, political, linguistic, and localized environments. If you were born and raised in the UK to Gujarati/Punjabi/Bengali whatever parents, you may know some things about where your parents come from, but maybe not– for you, the UK is your “home”, even if others tell you otherwise. Perhaps you accompany them to trips to India. But in the end, the only people who really care about “keeping Indian values” are parents and their social circle. It’s a shame when their children–even as adults–start pushing this type of mentality onto others, i.e. denigrating their peers as “coconut,” “sell-outs,” etc.

Another thing too is that “Indian values” as our elders see it are fast fading in some sections of the population which resides in large, metropolitan Indian cities–some folks who speak predominantly English, dress in “Western clothes,” date, choose not to marry, smoke, drink, are “loose”. So who is to define what “Indian values” are? “Indian values” are usually the conservatives’ version of what culture, identity, and so on are.

And if I may add something else– the South Asian diaspora is amongst the most conservative I have seen in degree and extent. The obsession with “all things Indian”–even if these are folks who are like THIRD generation diasporan–is absurd. It can’t be healthy to spend most of their time arranging marriages within the “community,” making life and personal decisions according to imagined reactions they’ll get at the gurdwara/mandhir whatever, shutting themselves off from everyone else who is not like them, harboring racist notions against blacks, whites, basically anyone who differs slightly from how they are, perpetuating female domestic servitude, and believing that just because you eat a samosa, listen to bhangra, know how to make chai and serve it to guests, and marrying someone “suitable” is being “Indian.”

There’s no space for evolution of thoughts, norms, mentality,and of becoming a part of where you were born and raised. Some diasporan communities have built this impenetrable cocoon around themselves, and I imagine that this is constraining, restrictive, oppressive, and stifles the growth of individuals.

NOTE: I am not speaking about ALL South Asian diasporans–but a good number of them.

And it is true that many first generation immigrant communities–both South Asian and not–resist “assimilation” for various reasons such as racism from the dominant group and etc, but it is also true that three, four generations down the line, things change a little bit, people loosen up (with the exception of groups like the Afrikaaners in South Africa).

I get the feeling that a considerable number of Asians just prefer to have your family find a suitable partner, rather than to go through the whole dating scene.

As always I can’t speak for Asians in general, but amongst the British Indian contingent it’s actually the opposite. Almost everyone goes through “the dating scene” in one form or another; apart from the very conservative minority, people generally only end up eventually going for the arranged marriage route if they either don’t find someone via their own efforts, or if their parents have a basic ideological “moral” objection to the notion of their kids marrying someone via a “love marriage” (even if the person concerned is/would actually be “suitable”), or if there’s some kind of impasse regarding the actual or theoretical person the individual would like to marry and whom their parents object to even if they may not necessarily object to a love marriage under different conditions.

Out of the 2nd-gen Indians I’ve met, I’d estimate at least 50-60% to have had a “love marriage”, and the proportion has been even higher amongst some social circles.

The whole ‘get your family to find someone’ malarkey isn’t necessarily the ideal option amongst most 2nd-gen Indians and in many cases certainly isn’t an option they’re interested in exercising full-stop if they have any choice in the matter.

It’s worth bearing in mind that, in the cases where people marrying spouses from the same background isn’t simply a matter of personal preference, they’re frequently doing so because of parental pressures and/or because they’re not willing to burn their bridges if their parents are vehemently against the idea.

I get the feeling that a considerable number of Asians just prefer to have your family find a suitable partner, rather than to go through the whole dating scene.

The best solution is to combine both.

Absolutely. Speaking personally, that has never been a problem. If you aspire to being no more than a decent human being then you probably share 90+% of the values of anyone else with the same modest aspiration.

Not actually traditional values. They may be regrettably prevalent problems, but I’ve never known them to be presented as values.

And your reading of Jai’s comment is ludicrous.

The Asian…..community in this country are shockingly backward, insular…..when it comes to accepting marriages from…..another race……Gujratis wont marry Punjabis,

Mixed marriages within the Asian population and with non-Asians aren’t anywhere near as rare as they used to be — at least for Indians (I can’t speak for Pakistanis etc). Both Gujaratis and Punjabis marrying each other (or people from other Indian backgrounds) isn’t exactly unknown these days either, even if broadly speaking the majority of people in these groups do marry spouses from the same background as themselves. Furthermore, the most recent census indicated that about 10% of Indians in the UK have a non-Asian spouse (which, although not a large number, is certainly noticeably higher than it used to be) and the proportion is increasing.

It’s worth bearing in mind that, in the cases where people marrying spouses from the same background isn’t simply a matter of personal preference, they’re frequently doing so because of parental pressures and/or because they’re not willing to burn their bridges if their parents are vehemently against the idea.

It doesn’t necessarily mean that, if they had a completely free hand in the matter, they’re insular, backward, prejudiced etc themselves and would have any objections to marrying someone from a different background.

THAT sounds pretty imperialistic to me -implying that mainstream British society is some yardstick of moral greatness everyone must aspire to and that all non-whites are barbarians who all honor kill their kids and have nothing worth preserving or learning from in tehir culture.

No, you’re confusing it with ‘assimilation’. Integration is about areas of common ground and generally being able to function in British society with (ideally) minimal friction.

And the following point…..

The best solution is to combine both

…..is of course common sense and completely correct.

Leon
“How on earth is that imperialist?? All people in this country should feel able to marry who the hell they want without some village elder mindset holding them back.”

Here here. Ashik what do you mean by outside ones community? The Asian (and other) Muslim community in this country are shockingly backward, insular and unislamic when it comes to accepting marriages from even Muslims of another race. Bengalis wont let their kids marry Pakistanis and vice versa, Gujratis wont marry Punjabis, Asians wont let their children marry black MUSLIMS etc etc. This is a disgrace and a slander on the religion.

Jai
” and (more to the point) how much their own behaviour and attitudes are in line with accepted norms within mainstream British society as a whole.”

THAT sounds pretty imperialistic to me -implying that mainstream British society is some yardstick of moral greatness everyone must aspire to and that all non-whites are barbarians who all honor kill their kids and have nothing worth preserving or learning from in tehir culture. Im not the biggest fan of Asian culture but certain things in the culture are better than some of the “accepted norms” or British society – such as not getting pissed and sleeping around, looking after your folks rather than putting them in a home, not living a live of totally selfish individualism without recourse to your family etc.

Of course these were traditional British values.
And many things in British culture are better than Asian culture such as the efficiency , lack of corruption, politeness etc

The best solution is to combine both

“Equality means sometimes treating people differently in order for them to be equal.”

Rhagorol !

Didn’t George Orwell write that?

: (

”‘integrate with wider British society’

Code words encouraging marriage outside ones community? If so, bit Imperialistic, no?”

Yes, but does a society like that new EU country of Slovenia have the right to be ”picky” about who the new migrants to that country of only two million are?

Whether they have a new British (or Australian) points based system of entry – or whether they tried to fill labour shortages like Britain has done in the past, and imported the likes of ”cousin marrying Mirpuri males” to come over and take factory jobs?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

”Mrs Cryer’s constituency is in the Bradford area, where the rates of cousin marriage are well above the national average. It is estimated that three out of four marriages within Bradford’s Pakistani community are between first cousins.

The practice remains so popular because the community believes there are real benefits to marrying in the family. Many British Pakistanis celebrate cousin marriage because it is thought to generate more stable relationships.”

I know the easiest thing to do here is for some people to say ”bigot” to me.

But this made me laugh. From Trofim:

”Why Cardiff? It’s a British city. And I hope it’s going to be in Welsh, or at least bilingual.”

Why? Who here understands Welsh? How many people of South Asian origin in Britain know Welsh before they know English? (About o% I’d say).

For one thing, Cardiff, as an old Imperial coal port, has sizable Somali and Yemeni communities:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southeast/sites/cardiff/pages/somalis.shtml

http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/focuson/islamintheuk/index.html

There is a genuine problem with FM & HBV in Wales. While the typical valley towns are still fairly homogenous, cities like Newport, Cardiff and Swansea definitely have problems and only Henna and BAWSO are available to provide specialist support.

Absolutely spot on – what you are describing could more or less be termed civil society, essential to both integration and democracy. Quite how anyone could see that as imperialist is beyond me.

Code words encouraging marriage outside ones community? If so, bit Imperialistic, no?

How on earth is that imperialist?? All people in this country should feel able to marry who the hell they want without some village elder mindset holding them back.

‘integrate with wider British society’

Code words encouraging marriage outside ones community? If so, bit Imperialistic, no?

*cuts this out and puts it on the Paranoid Conspiracy Theories wall*