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  • Technorati: graph / links

    But at what cost?


    by Sunny on 5th February, 2009 at 9:27 am    

    I agree with Max Dunbar that the Iraqi elections at first sight seem like a success. And the news so far is very good.

    All the Islamic parties lost ground, especially that associated with the so-called ‘Shia firebrand’, Moqtada al-Sadr, whose share of the vote went down from 11% to 3%. The principal Sunni Islamic party, the Islamic Party of Iraq, was wiped out. Instead, a new generation of Iraqi politicians is coming forward. Many of them are young and secular. They have lived always in Iraq, not in exile; they are Iraqis with local roots first and foremost - they are not pan-Arabs or pan-Islamists. Nor do they have connections to the US.

    I hate to rain on the parade but that doesn’t yet negate the ongoing cost of this huge blunder.
    The Nation magazine this week looks at Bush’s legacy:

    We have a better grasp of the human costs of the war. For example, the United Nations estimates that there are about 4.5 million displaced Iraqis-more than half of them refugees-or about one in every six citizens. Only 5 percent have chosen to return to their homes over the past year, a period of reduced violence from the high levels of 2005-07. The availability of healthcare, clean water, functioning schools, jobs and so forth remains elusive. According to Unicef, many provinces report that less than 40 percent of households have access to clean water. More than 40 percent of children in Basra, and more than 70 percent in Baghdad, cannot attend school.

    The mortality caused by the war is also high. Several household surveys were conducted between 2004 and 2007. While there are differences among them, the range suggests a congruence of estimates. But none have been conducted for eighteen months, and the two most reliable surveys were completed in mid-2006. The higher of those found 650,000 “excess deaths” (mortality attributable to war); the other yielded 400,000. The war remained ferocious for twelve to fifteen months after those surveys were finished and then began to subside. Iraq Body Count, a London NGO that uses English-language press reports from Iraq to count civilian deaths, provides a means to update the 2006 estimates. While it is known to be an undercount, because press reports are incomplete and Baghdad-centric, IBC nonetheless provides useful trends, which are striking. Its estimates are nearing 100,000, more than double its June 2006 figure of 45,000. (It does not count nonviolent excess deaths-from health emergencies, for example-or insurgent deaths.) If this is an acceptable marker, a plausible estimate of total deaths can be calculated by doubling the totals of the 2006 household surveys, which used a much more reliable and sophisticated method for estimates that draws on long experience in epidemiology. So we have, at present, between 800,000 and 1.3 million “excess deaths” as we approach the six-year anniversary of this war.

    That is a staggering figure. So anyone who feels completely vindicated by these elections because they’ve made apologies for it over the past six years need to do some serious re-evaluating.



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    44 Comments below   |   Add your own

    1. Max Dunbar — on 5th February, 2009 at 9:47 am  

      By all means, but shouldn’t people who’ve been apologising for the Glorious Resistance over the last six years be implicated too?

    2. G — on 5th February, 2009 at 9:59 am  

      Staggering? Yes. Accurate? No.

      You are more likely to die of violent crime, including terrorism, in South Africa than Iraq. All who think that the myriad deaths and rapes in post-Apartheid South Africa are justified by something as measly as democratic and civil rights need to do some serious re-evaluating.

    3. Sid — on 5th February, 2009 at 10:27 am  

      You are more likely to die of violent crime, including terrorism, in South Africa than Iraq.

      Big statements like that need proof and proof that’s peer reviewed and stands up to scrutiny.

    4. G — on 5th February, 2009 at 10:50 am  

      OK here you go.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate

      You will see that in 2006 and 2007 Iraq had the highest muder rate in the world, wheras it is now lower than Brazil.

      The people who really need to do most explaining are those who supported the Iraq War in the beginning, the mismanagement of which undoubtedly caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths, but opposed the surge, which caused the muder rate to plummet.

      Actually, anyone who opposed the surge has some serious explaining to do.

    5. Sid — on 5th February, 2009 at 11:55 am  

      The wikipedia survey does not say that it classifies homicides in the same category as “excess deaths” or mortality attributable to war. I suspect it doesn’t which is why you cannot compare the higher numbers of homicides in Southern Africa with those Iraq and say that the numbers of civilian deaths are less in Iraq. All the report is saying is that the numbers of homicides in Iraq are lower than in Southern Africa.

      The numbers of deaths caused by war is not factored into this report.

    6. Danny S — on 5th February, 2009 at 12:56 pm  

      It’s worth pointing out that the author of the original survey on which these highly controversial civilian death figures were based was censured yesterday for refusing to provide details of his methodology.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7869317.stm

      The argument as to whether the human cost of the war can be justified is hugely important and it seems absurd to be considering whether 100,000 deaths is much of a lesser evil than 1,000,000.

      But in my opinion, using increasingly discredited (and seemingly politically motivated) figures to frame your argument only weakens it and undermines the possibility of a meaningful discussion.

    7. platinum786 — on 5th February, 2009 at 1:54 pm  

      How successful Iraq is will be shown in it’s true glory, the moment foreign forces are removed from Iraq. just watch how they tear the country apart for power. We’ll be lucky at the end of this to see 1 Iraq, rather than 3.

    8. Sunny — on 5th February, 2009 at 3:09 pm  

      but shouldn’t people who’ve been apologising for the Glorious Resistance over the last six years be implicated too

      I’ll agree with that Max.

    9. G — on 5th February, 2009 at 3:09 pm  

      “The numbers of deaths caused by war is not factored into this report.”

      Well not in the sense that the war lasted a couple weeks and ended in 2003. Violent attacks by insurgents certainly are included,as are deaths from militia fighting etc., which is why the rate is so astoundingly high in 2006-7. Do you think there was unprecedented epidemic of serial killers or women putting arsenic in their husbands’ coffee or something?

      Violence in Iraq is way down. Violence in South Africa, Brazil, Guatemala and many other countries is higher. Deal with it.

    10. douglas clark — on 5th February, 2009 at 4:21 pm  

      Danny S,

      You, and the BBC say censured, there are people who might think smeared is a more appropriate word. Neither Burnham, the main author of the report nor Johns Hopkins University his employer are members of the American Association for Public Opinion Research (AAPOR). They - AAPOR - decided to investigate because one of their members raised a complaint. They are maintaining the anonymity, so far, of who that was. As bi - IJI says over on Deltoid:

      So AAPOR thinks it has the right to demand Burnham to disclose his data and methods, where Burnham is not a member of AAPOR, and where the right to demand information is based on a secret investigation initiated by a secret complaint.

      I think it is AAPOR that has some explaining to do.

      See here:

      http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/

    11. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 4:28 pm  

      I did not support the decision to invade Iraq …
      but at what point do you swallow your own pride? (by pride I mean - not saying I told you so …look how bad it is … etc)
      I was quite angry after the invasion as well, But if you really care about Iraqi people you will need to give full effort it seeing it to the end … and I do not think it a good idea at all to leave them to their own means. But all the anti war protest have made it very unfashionable if not all out disgusting to be supportive of any military defensive, and I am so tired of seeing the word “occupation”. maybe sometimes it is necessary!
      I image as it has been said …just watch how they tear the country apart for power…. may happen - or not. I can’t say, but I hope not! Which is really why I can not understand how it helps to prove how wrong the united states was, the world turned its back on Iraq - not the americans or bush or who ever people like to blame.

      I do not see at this point how constantly displaying every negative is productive? or what it proves? and can’t remember if in “at what cost” - financial/lives from the US side was included?
      again I need to say I was against this … but you can’t take it back! The only thing different in this and everything else was the beginning. all that changes are the words, and how you chose to look at it more often is nothing but opinions. If you detach from it a learn to see it as future history. It is a war, one of forced independence. If I remember correctly it started pretty simple … and went quickly. They, mostly as a people, just surrendered. And then the real fighting began - like in all civil wars. Alot, maybe all of the war was fought against insurgents who were not even from Iraq, but fighting against american “occupation”. Which it never was… I don’t want to argue that.
      its been 5 years ..a long war. its like, I swear, people who were against it just hope and pray and wait for it not never work out, only cause they can’t seem to accept it happened when they didn’t want it to. I agree it may have been wrong … but I hope it is a success! and what has the reaction of the anti war crowd done to prevent much needed action in other places, cause it will been seen as western invasions and occupations?
      but anyway, if anyone wants to keep track with statistics how much death and destruction has been caused … I really really have to ask what are their intension?
      I worry about the world and its new mob mentality.
      If you wanna believe this war is worse than any other it isn’t, from the beginning of time….. in the greek revolution the population went from millions to thousands and thats just greek deaths… not counting refugees…. in Rwanda millions were killed in 3 months, with millions of refugees … in Liberia it was worse. There are hundreds of other wars to add…… fought for different reasons at different times.
      Do we fight or not fight?
      How you stop wars I don’t know? you tell me?
      If you think statistics are meant to prove something, what is it exactly? That you were right? then what?
      Considering some other wars this one to me, was pretty slow and continues, maybe that is why the numbers will keep rising. Whats the answer?
      when we all withdraw …..what will be said?
      and there is some much confusion in how to do things.
      some expect things on demand! get out now! as if that erases it all somehow.
      The invasion can be blamed for the start, but how responsible are they for the end? If it all goes bad now maybe its Iraq’s fault.

    12. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 4:41 pm  

      That was long and maybe pointless…. but I always wonder if things would have went another way if from the beginning forces had been allowed to be forces! and an actual occupation. They were not ready for “freedom”.

    13. comrade — on 5th February, 2009 at 5:03 pm  

      By all means, but shouldn’t people who’ve been apologising for the Glorious Resistance over the last six years be implicated too?

      If the Iraqis had handed the keys to the oilfields to the US, all this wouldn’t have taken place, there would have been no UN sanctions {which caused the death of half million Iraqis] If there was no resistance, Fallujja wouldn’t have been flattened, chidren wouldn’t be dying of cancer. All this deaths, suffering and distruction took place because the Iraqi people decided to resist US aggression. The same happened in Gaza, because the Palestinians dared to resist Israili occupation, the same in Vietnam, the same…….

    14. Sid — on 5th February, 2009 at 5:20 pm  

      G

      Weren’t violent acts by insurgents highest in 2004-2005 *prior* to the “Surge”? This doesn’t seem to be indicated in this report you link to? Again, I don’t see how you are bringing a report on homicide records into this discussion. Why do violent acts by insurgents qualify as homicides and “excess deaths” not? Seems more than a little spurious to me.

    15. Refresh — on 5th February, 2009 at 5:43 pm  

      Queen of Fiddlesticks,

      ‘I do not see at this point how constantly displaying every negative is productive?’

      There is every reason, the most important of which is being organised, or should I say being better organised to stop the next invasion.

      Imagine, had it been a rip-roaring ’success’, do you think we would be discussing Iraq now? We would already have digested Syria and chewing on Iran.

      And we must qualify success. Success as measured by the US, is getting your own way at minimal cost for maximum return. Minimal cost being dollars expended versus dollar revenue over the next 50 years. Minimal cost is maximum number of US personnel expended before the US electorate rise up. For the Iraqi people, and Afghans (and any other peoples in their sights) its clearly the maximum people expended before the US electorate sit up and take notice.

      Those are the sad calculations that are made, and that is what needs to be broadcast as often as it takes to get the message over to the US people. Its done in their name and not necessarily for their benefit.

      As for the rest of the world, the message is clear - unclench your buttocks but prepare for the worst.

    16. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 5:50 pm  

      comrade

      If there was no resistance, Fallujja wouldn’t have been flattened, chidren wouldn’t be dying of cancer. All this deaths, suffering and distruction took place because the Iraqi people decided to resist US aggression.

      I am positive that is not how it happened exactly. The mayor of fullujja was appointed by Iraqis and pro american. so when you say the Iraqi people decided to restist ..you really mean just some don’t you.
      NOt ones who sought “freedom” … and the events that followed stemmed from that. Please explain how even a presence = occupation? and what would be so bad about an American occupation? You can say all you want about people and resistance … but don’t forget other things ..like the prisons found after the flattening of fallujja. They tortured their own people just like hamas … and not with underware on their heads …but with out heads. but I am glad you brought hamas into this. Cause I am wondering what would really be so bad if there was no gaza and the people living there became occupied Israeli citizens and were eventually forced to assimilate into the population like the million other palistians already living inside Israel?

    17. marvin — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:12 pm  

      They tortured their own people just like hamas … and not with underware on their heads …but with out heads

      Hahahaha true true. In Fallejuah alone they found 3 torture houses.

    18. Refresh — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:17 pm  

      ‘Hahahaha true true. In Fallejuah alone they found 3 torture houses.’

      Marvin, are you really sure you want to be on this turf?

    19. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:22 pm  

      thank you Refresh,
      I just think there are better ways at looking at and going about it.
      I did not support this war myself because it states or tries too …in our own constitution the objective was impossible to achieve . As people need to learn, grow, and fight for them selves ..there is a natural evolutionary process in all societies to reach a potential of freedom and democracy that can neither be forced nor given. People need to suffer, it is what brings change into life …. firstly because there is a need then desire for it becomes strong enough. when you look for a quick fix or way out there isn’t gonna be one. Some one once described it to me as giving birth.
      Personally I would have focused all my might on Afghanistan.
      I hope there is no new invasion anytime soon! trust me I don’t.
      but I did have to laugh, had it been a rip roaring success …syria and iran might be happy to see them selves digested :P

      I hope you understand as a people …Americans on a whole are sincere do gooders at heart. Willing to give everything for the greater good, if you think its about power and greed I would strongly disagree. There are many many who only wanted to see Iraqis free, no more.

    20. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

      sadly I don’t feel lives lost has much of an affect on brains in the name of anti war protest. It seems to cause more war and deaths….
      the past has taught us there is glory in it and sacrifice is neccesary for the cause, and everyone wants to be a hero.
      a better approach might be to discuss resources, including money …. war isn’t good for the planet, its expensive too … but it does create jobs …

    21. marvin — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:44 pm  

      Marvin, are you really sure you want to be on this turf?

      Why, are you in the business of denying the evil carried out by Al-Qaeda, and militia forces? Are they actually the goodies and the US forces the badies for taking them out? I think I know your answer already.

      And actually I got it wrong. There were nearly two dozen ‘houses of horror’

      (CBS) U.S. commanders say their door to door patrols have uncovered nearly two dozen houses of horror in the back streets of Fallujah, reports CBS News Correspondent Lee Cowan.

      “The face of Satan was here in Fallujah, and I’m absolutely convinced that that was true,” said Lt. Col. Gareth Brandl, with the U.S. Marines.

      The rooms were found by Marines following trails of dried blood, or the smell of death. Some rooms were hidden behind fake walls, or concealed in basements.

      Residents told troops they only knew the torture chambers were there because they could hear the screams at night.

      “We found numerous houses, also, where people were just chained to a wall for extended periods of time,” said U.S. military intelligence officer Major Jim West.

      Are you sure you want to be on this turf?

    22. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:56 pm  

      I speak often of a documentary I watched years ago by and about a Dr. in Iraq called “My country my country” …. I can remember the crowds of people cheering on in support, american fighter jets as they flew over towards Fallujah … chanting Fallujah Fallujah! we won’t forget you! ..or something like that… breaks my heart still.
      I blame you all, first those for it …then those against it.

    23. Refresh — on 5th February, 2009 at 6:56 pm  

      Queen

      I appreciate your sentiments, and your self-view. Sadly it really isn’t reflected in american history, as relatives and descendants of the millions dead will attest.

      There may well be a bigger disconnect than I originally thought between what you see and hear from your domestic media and what we see over here.

    24. Refresh — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:08 pm  

      Marvin

      And for that you light up the night sky, burn the people beneath and flatten Falluja?

      I am sure at some point we will see the full list of CIA secret prisons and sub-contracted torture chambers dotted around the globe. Two dozen would be a reasonable guess.

    25. soru — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:16 pm  

      Imagine, had it been a rip-roaring ’success’, do you think we would be discussing Iraq now? We would already have digested Syria and chewing on Iran.

      Are you actually saying that you think it was worth how every many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives in order to keep the dictatorships going in Syria, Sudan, Burma, Zimbabwe, …?

    26. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:16 pm  

      haha refesh there you go doing what I hate … shall I buy you one of those shirts I see for sale on the street …”americans killed the indians”
      I didn’t kill them! neither did anyone in my family! and how long will I be blamed for it? are there shirts say “germans killed the jews” …etc..
      I have a great Idea.. lets all dip into our own gene pools and pick a place in time to punish each other for the past. I am first generation so Indian massacre wont do .. I do have viking and roman empire in my blood … both of witch have been enemy to england … how quick can you get here to destroy me for my connection.

      Sadly it really isn’t reflected in american history, as dead relatives and descendants of the millions will attest.
      what I really want to say to that is suck my ass… oops I did….
      but if you think Americans look at that history and party over it they don’t. There is incredible love, respect and admiration for native Americans now as relatives and descendants of the millions living will attest.

    27. Refresh — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:27 pm  

      Queen, no one has said you did. I draw a clear distinction between the people and the state.

      What would you propose we do to stop the next invasion?

    28. Refresh — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:29 pm  

      Soru, I did think that would be the obvious response. But had expected it from Marvin.

    29. marvin — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:36 pm  

      I think the white phosphorus needs be halted by both US and Israeli forces - it’s too risky that civilians will be affected by it…

      I am sure at some point we will see the full list of CIA secret prisons and sub-contracted torture chambers dotted around the globe. Two dozen would be a reasonable guess.

      Can’t say I have a great deal of sympathy for terrorists having pants put on their heads and being made to listen to Britney Spears. They kind of deserved it. Waterboarding, a terrible experience to be sure, was carried out on the 3 most hardcore inmates at Gitmo. Not too bothered, (some must be distraught at this, though). Still, it sends out the wrong message. We need to be on the moral high ground.

      The people in Fallejuah, that had their heads lopped off, or their tongues pulled out, and their eyes gouged out, I wonder what they did?

      Fallejuah was a terrorist stronghold Refresh (or perhaps your ‘freedom fighters’). Around 3,000 terrorists were based there. The reckon it was HQ for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s al Qaeda in Iraq. Quite how do you deal with such a gang of evil people who enjoy personally beheading people? (I suppose one man’s evil beheader is another man’s brave resistance fighter)

      But no, the real baddies are the American troops. End of discussion!

    30. marvin — on 5th February, 2009 at 7:39 pm  

      What would you propose we do to stop the next invasion?

      I find this mind numbingly stupid. You would be against the next military intervention, no matter what. People with your attitudes were vehemently against military action against Hitler. Imagine if we’d have listened then? Genocide? Pah! Let them get on with it. We don’t want one of those nasty wars!

    31. Don — on 5th February, 2009 at 8:10 pm  

      Americans on a whole are sincere do gooders at heart. Yep, certainly most of the Americans I have met have been delightful and generous.

      Willing to give everything for the greater good, … Fair point.

      Unfortunately, if you don’t want what they want to give you they can - as a nation - get quite extreme in their insistence.

      And can we stop accusing one another of supporting terrorists without a reasonably sound basis?

      Marvin, I generally find your comments sensible and well presented although I may not always agree. But Not too bothered, (some must be distraught at this, though). Still, it sends out the wrong message. We need to be on the moral high ground. seems to me to be a confused argument. And how you can confidently claim that waterboarding was confined to the three most hardcore prisoners at gitmo astounds me. But even if it were true, you don’t get to torture just a bit and then get all morally outraged over torture by the other side.

      If you want the moral high ground you don’t torture. If you choose to torture then you are rolling in the shit with the rest and are indistinguishable from any other shit-covered psycho.

      Similarly with blowing up civilians. If you can find a way to make it ok to drop a shit load of explosives on a civilian area, how exactly do you differ from, say, Samira Jassam? The end result is the same, you just take the route dictated by practical capabilities. The desiderata is dismembered innocents either way.

      I opposed the Iraq war. I could have been persuaded to support it given the stakes and Saddam’s track record, but it was so obviously a venal and botched project that just assumed that insignificant others would pay the price for short-sighted incompetence and arrogance.

      There is incredible love, respect and admiration for native Americans Or for a concept of native Americans with which invasive Americans feel comfortable?

    32. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 8:42 pm  

      Sadly it really isn’t reflected in american history ….
      well if you really wanted to see or better yet know americans you should try by looking at the people today! It is reflecting on that past that has moved us forward .. most recently with a black president.
      To stop the next invasion I would really start by showing how everything is exactly the same! there is good and bad in everything. stop focusing on the bad! For every problem there is already someone working on it and they need support! But no one wants to be taken over! so we really need to look at who has control issues and why.
      Everyone wants the same thing they just call it different names.
      everyone also should acknowledge everyone is in a different phase of evolution. Things some countries and beliefs are going through now are things we have already been through … and our own problems are the result of a past problem … eventually it will all balance out. The people in Iran are the same as the people in The United states. They have intellectuals, liberals, rednecks, religious fanatics, babies and grandmothers ….. they want to be free and happy just like everyone only they call it something else. But on TV we only see the bad in Iran. We need to stop sending aide to everyone and start making them do it for themselves … with support. There needs to be a balancing out of information as well, education means lots of things …not just ensuring people grow up to be doctors.
      and we really need to stop blaming groups and entire races or countries for things that happened when ever how many years ago … empires, slavery and invasion included. We need to stop making east west divides on both sides and stop saying Americans do everything for oil. we have spent so much time finding differences, lets start looking for connections instead.
      The war in Iraq has also cost trillions of dollars, I am sure it played some part in the economic downturn ..if you wanna be anti war talk money!

      I am curious though ..why you picked Iran and Syria …
      I don’t see them as threats so much as Pakistan …they have solid governments … Iran especially is not in a place to do much itself at present, thats why they have allied with some big boys, and will have an election of their own soon. Just as Israel will soon have a new PM.
      everything is changing already if you let it.

    33. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 9:28 pm  

      Or for a concept of native Americans with which invasive Americans feel comfortable?

      I kind of do not know what that means? There are still Indians living all over the US and freely , Im not gonna argue or prove my life with the Indians … but why are the Americans always called things like “invasive”…. do you call Australians that? Canadians? and why leave out the French, Italian, Portuguese, Dutch, and especially Spanish …who on arrival killed all the men raped all the woman and enslaved the entire population for hundreds of years, what are they called now?

    34. comrade — on 5th February, 2009 at 9:44 pm  

      Queen of fiddlesticks,

      Why doesn’t the US keep it’s imperialist nose out of the affairs of other countries. It is upto the people of that country if they want a regime change or not. I am not a supporter of Saddam Hussain, when the US was supplying chemical weopons to Saddam, I was supporting the Kurdish Resistants. I have never had any sympathy with religous fondamentalist of any sort, nor with any occuping armies wether Russian or American. It is the right of every country to choose the path it wants to follow, political,social or religous. Would the US except regime change from outside?

      I hope you understand as a people …Americans on a whole are sincere do gooders at heart. Willing to give everything for the greater good, if you think its

      I have nothing against the American People. But you really need to look at US foreign policy starting from Latin American where it support tinpot dictators.

    35. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 9:52 pm  

      comrade,
      I think I said the exact same thing in an earlier comment above, that puts you and I already on the same side.

    36. Don — on 5th February, 2009 at 10:15 pm  

      Queen,

      Invasive may have come across as perjorative, but historically accurate. I would certainly apply the term to everybody else who has pushed another people out of their territory. We’ve been doing that to each other since we could grunt. We’re still doing it and we’re still grunting. I’m going to bed.

    37. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 10:32 pm  

      ok nighty night

    38. comrade — on 5th February, 2009 at 10:46 pm  

      FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO IRAQ:

      A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

      by Dr. Zoltan Grossman.

      http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

    39. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 5th February, 2009 at 11:06 pm  

      and thats for….?

    40. soru — on 5th February, 2009 at 11:22 pm  

      Would the US except regime change from outside?

      Err, it did - check who did most of the fighting in the american war of Independence.

      In fifty years time, the role of the americans in overthrowing saddam will, inside the country, be as forgotten as most of the entries in Dr Zoltan’s list.

    41. Refresh — on 6th February, 2009 at 12:34 am  

      The world dreams about a time when it takes the US 50 years to forget their last invasion.

    42. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 6th February, 2009 at 2:41 am  

      refresh,
      you seem to have trouble forgetting what someone did 100 years ago or more … why don’t you try picking on china or Russia for a change. What kind of dream is that anyway? I repeat I did not support the decision to invade Iraq … but it still happened.
      after that I have no choice but to support it! why wouldn’t I? The only reason I can come up with is cause I wanna prove it was wrong and how does that help the Iraqis? why did I not think it was a good idea? because freedom can not be given it is fought for and now it has been. You can say all you want americans were fighting against Iraq resistance fighters …. but it’s not true … They fought along side and for the real resistance! I know we forced them into it and it has cost everyone, but I agree with soru. Even as they fight now to move forward there are people who won’t let go. Which is why I keep asking what is to gain by always pointing out all the death and destruction in this as well as through out the gaza assault ? It only spreads resentment that leads to more war! Maybe to repay us for what we did you would be happy to now see a million Americans die or Israel destroyed? if so keep doing what you are doing with your version of anti war protest.
      I was on the other hand all for going into Afghanistan.
      There are things to fight for and against, like it or not.
      As much as everything is the same, every situation is different. Iraq was for regime change, Saddam was a totalitarian dictator, the tali ban is something else, it is an ideology. Amadingdongmad in Iran is not a “regime” he is a president. Their “Bush” you could say - so all this making them the new enemy is just stupid, to even think of invading them is ridiculous, who is saying that? please read these …

      http://tinyurl.com/dmmk34
      http://tinyurl.com/dbgzl5
      http://tinyurl.com/8gujfo

      soru makes an excellent point in her comment about the american revolution. and I always want to ask human rights activists if you are against all any type military involvement in any situation how much do really care about suffering people and their rights? It’s one thing to go into a solid country like Iraq, Iran, china, India or what ever …. but what of places with weaker governments struggling with crime, tribal wars, brutal traditions or worse? I know we have been doing things different already but any effort to help at all is now labeled ” western” in one way or another, even if help was asked for. I recently watched a program on British aide through technology, and training to fight pirates in Africa … and the pirates have vowed to seek revenge for their involvement via acts of terrorism.
      If Africans blow up a train now who are you gonna blame?

    43. comrade — on 6th February, 2009 at 7:13 pm  

      The Queen of Fiddlesticks

      I was on the other hand all for going into Afghanistan.
      There are things to fight for and against, like it or not.

      Can you please emphasize what these are?

      I repeat I did not support the decision to invade Iraq … but it still happened.
      after that I have no choice but to support it! why wouldn’t I?

      Have you not a brain of your own, do you follow the your Governments decission blindly?

      why don’t you try picking on china or Russia for a change.

      When the above is on the Agenda we will.

    44. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 7th February, 2009 at 4:01 pm  

      Can you please emphasize what these are?

      I can.
      and would say …. when a singular power gains absolute control over the population, destroying the basic fundamental necessities of a government capable of participating and interacting with/as part of the whole, then sets in place a foundation through violence and extreme ideologies, building from there a country where those extreme principles and violent actions become not only normal within the society but desired for themselves and others as well… it then will become a threat to it’s own neighbors and wish to spread that violence as far as it can reach making it a danger to the entire world.

      http://www.hazara.net/taliban/taliban.html

      6 million plus refugees pre 9/11
      http://tinyurl.com/ab3shf

      http://tinyurl.com/ab3shf
      maybe the same spotlight should be shown on the upcoming Iranian election as was the US … to let them know everyone is watch them too!
      I have to go to work now but please do defend the taliban while I am gone! make excuses for them turning a focus on slaughtering their own children for wanting to go to school, and find reasons to label them fighters against american occupation.

      Have you not a brain of your own, do you follow the your Governments decission blindly?

      If that statement is supposed to make me feel something it does not!
      I have said nothing to make anyone assume that! I can’t support every decision anymore than I can be against EVERYTHING! My support was not for the decision or the war itself…. It was for Iraq!
      and please what year would you like me to protest my governments actions? If you wanna go back to the revolutionary war I may have been against it who knows……



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