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    Be careful of whom you take advice…


    by Sunny on 9th February, 2006 at 3:45 am    

    An interesting situation is developing in Denmark, with Danish Muslims becoming increasingly split on how to proceed over the cartoon row. According to the Beeb, top Muslims are declaring that they are proud of being Danish and “supporting Danish values”. Even the right-wing MPs are suprised, prompting one to declare: “I didn’t know there were so many Muslims in Denmark who are supporting Western values.” Erm, it might help to talk to some of them occasionally you know.

    Two months ago, a group of Danish writers warned that “the harsh tone in the national debate about Muslims and integration was comparable to Nazi rhetoric against Jews”. The most instructive part of the article comes after:

    However, some of the strongest protests against the cartoons have come from imams who are part of the government’s integration think tank.

    For the Danish integration minister, Rikke Hvilshoj, that stance is a wake-up call. “It is very clear that we cannot trust the imams any longer if we want integration to succeed in Denmark,” Mrs Hvilshoj says.

    The Labour party and Ken Livingstone could learn a lot from that, not just for Muslims but all Asian communities.



    Print this page and comments   |     |   Add to del.icio.us   |   Share on Facebook   |   Filed in: Religion, The World




    67 Comments below   |  

    1. mirax — on 9th February, 2006 at 4:38 am  

      Agree wholeheartedly with the part about ditching imams/priests/witchdoctors/soothsayers completely from any ‘community representation’!
      The danish imams have shown themselves to be a particularly untrustworthy and trouble-making lot.
      While the Danish minister is smart enough to have come to her senses and honest enough to articulate her frustration, that is just not going to happen anytime soon elsewhere. Certainly not in Britain where Nu Labour runs straight to the bloody MCB or MAB for community ’spokesmen’.

    2. mirax — on 9th February, 2006 at 4:52 am  

      BTW Sunny, moderate Danish muslims had already held a demonstration in support of J-P’s right to publish the cartoons way before this beeb report. Islamowarriors would like to portray the ‘ummah’ as One Great Being, all heaving and beating in unison a collective breast in anguish over the cartoons. That 1.3 billion number is always shoved in our faces, even here on PP and often taken on uncritically by people like yourself.

      I will undoubtedly be called a communalist again(the usual suspects, Sid and Jay, will not dare call me racist cause I’m a brownskin) for trying to deal with muslims as individuals, esp rational and reasonable individuals but what the hell.

    3. mirax — on 9th February, 2006 at 5:10 am  

      Some more. An egyptian paper published the supposedly dreadfully offensive cartoons in October 2005.Nary a squeak then. How come you have not highlighted this in the same way you highlight the J-P’s refusal 3 years ago, with a different editor to boot, to print x-tian bashing cartoons, Sunny?

      Here’s a scan of the page:

      http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/boycott-egypt.html

      I guess this double standards may have to do with your awowed focus on Europe, which you hold to much, much higher standards than the crazy rest of the world?

    4. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 9:21 am  

      Erm, it might help to talk to some of them occasionally you know.

      I return to my pet subject: excessive press coverage of nutter element.

    5. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 10:13 am  

      I will undoubtedly be called a communalist again(the usual suspects, Sid and Jay, will not dare call me racist cause I’m a brownskin) for trying to deal with muslims as individuals, esp rational and reasonable individuals but what the hell.

      Ugggh..lose the Joan of Arc complex please and read around my words carefully.

    6. Siddharth — on 9th February, 2006 at 10:15 am  

      And now I know how Joan of Arc felt
      Now I know how Joan of Arc felt, oh
      As the flames rose to a roman nose
      And her hearing aid started to melt

      -The Smiths

    7. David T — on 9th February, 2006 at 10:19 am  

      Past the Pub who saps your body
      And the church who’ll snatch your money
      THE QUEEN IS DEAD BOYS!!!!!!

    8. Chris Stiles — on 9th February, 2006 at 11:10 am  

      I return to my pet subject: excessive press coverage of nutter element.

      When society is perceives a threat from the nuttier element then that is perfectly understandable.

      It would be easier, of course, if there was a well identifiable moderate figure with significant grassroots support. Instead, in this country, we have Bungwala and his ilk.

      Which moderate figure do you support, El Cid?

    9. David T — on 9th February, 2006 at 11:40 am  

      The problem is this. Moderate figures tend not to be hyper-religious.

      I mean, they’ll go to the Mosque a bit and possess a copy of the Quran, and get together with the family over Eid, and stuff. But the one thing the won’t be able to do is to hold themselves up as a model Muslim.

      Now, if you’ve got a religious based politics, the people who will rise in that political movement will be those who are very deeply immersed in religious observance. They’re likely - but won’t inevitably - be pretty conservative, because old religions involve signing up to lots of conservative stuff.

      The second thing is that challenging or even participating actively - i.e. as a potential leader yourself - religious politics means that you’ve got to be sufficiently skilled to be able to take part in religious debates. And if you’re naturally a socially and politically progressive person, you won’t have spent the last 10 years of your live immersed in these sort of religious theoretical debates. So you’re not equipped to challenge them on their own terms.

      So what happens if that there are people out there who either think “I’m not able to take these people on - and if I do, they’ll point out that I’ve married somebody who isn’t Muslim and I eat pork, and I stumble over my prayers”. Or they think “Well, they’re the religious leaders, they’re nothing to do with me”.

      Either way, a politics defined by religion pretty much guarantees that the leadership will be much more conservative - and will remain more conservative - than the people they claim to represent.

      It really could go either way. You get more people from “religiously defined communities” involved in non-religiously defined politics, and the press goes to those people for comments.

      Or the government enters into partnership with religious political groups, and basically says “you’re responsible for keeping the jews/hindus/sikhs/muslims in order and in return, you get a knighthood and get invited onto committees”. And they use that power to say to their putative ‘flock’: “We’re the guys who can get you concessions with those in power BACK US”, and gradually society becomes more balkanised, and broken up into little unaccountably led faith-defined groups, where religious political power gets stronger and stronger.

      That is, for example, what Ken Livingstone is doing at the moment with the Muslim Brotherhood.

      http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2006/02/08/ken_livingstone_hosts_muslim_brotherhood_propaganda_exercise.php

    10. Col. Mustafa — on 9th February, 2006 at 11:53 am  

      Seriously, will this ever stop?
      Must these cartoons rule the world from now on.

      At some point in the future, will this moment be recorded history as one of the reasons why were living in an underground room which i made with the help of buddies and fellow stragglers theat i picked up along the way in my journeys fleeing the Great lord of all good who for some reason started war with everyone.

      Hmmmm, i hope not.

      Its getting sillier and siller, with counter cartoons coming out from the middle east, and mind games from both sides about whose gonna publish or crack first.

      Im jus gonna draw some cartoons that illustrate the stupidity of all sides.
      Abit crude maybe, but i was thinking a cartoon in which the jylannds posten people doing the imams up the arse.
      BUTTTT, the Imams have extra large elastic dicks which then bend round to do the Jyllands guys up the arse too.

      I can call it “my ass” and have a few captions of maybe the Imams saying “Jolly good show” .

      I have to say Anjum’s appearance on Newsnight was a good thing.
      It showed newsnight viewers at least, that not all muslims think like the nutter protesters and how muslims have trouble trying to communicate with the extemists in our societies.

    11. BevanKieran — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:03 pm  

      Col. Mustafa

      LOL. That is pure genius! Try it, I think you will be in for a shot for the Turner prize.

    12. Francis Sedgemore — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:07 pm  

      The problem is this. Moderate figures tend not to be hyper-religious. [David T]

      What I would like to know, and peferably from people active within Muslim communities, is exactly how much influence people like the late Dr Zaki Badawi have within European Islam, and how they are perceived by mainstream worshippers.

      Of course I hope that the answer is: a significant amount, but most of my knowledge of the theologian comes from the Guardian, hence the request for a ‘real world’ view. My experience of practising Muslims, albeit limited, leads me to think that within a ‘typical’ mosque, moderate and fundamentalist Islam co-exist, with both sides active. If that is the case, is the problem primarily one of organisational weakness on the moderate side, rather than simply relative numbers of moderates and fundamentalists?

    13. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:11 pm  

      David T in his post number 9 gets it 100% right.

      You’re really perceptive dude, I’m impressed.

      One thing I have noticed is that the Sikh Federation, for example, is getting more and more active as Sikhs are becoming more integrated and successful. It is almost as though they are reacting against this success and they want to revive religioisty through public process. It becomes a reaction to the relative success of British Sikhs in getting integrated and so on.

      And these are the most conservative people about.

    14. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:13 pm  

      Col Mustafa your last post was very funny

      Where has seanT gone? I liked debating him.

    15. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:19 pm  

      Chris Stiles,
      I’m not a moslem. And my temperament is not always moderate. But my politics is moderately left-wing.
      IMO, all aspects of Moslem opinion should be canvassed, not just the mouthy minority. Aside from the MCB, which look like the Tories, there are Labour muslim MPs, atheist muslims like Siddarth (have I got you right Sid?), the Asian Dub Foundation, muslims in the professions, muslim traders and restauranters, muslims on the street, anything.
      Why does opinion have to be organised to be treated seriously by the press? Because it’s convenient? Because it makes a sexier story? But what if the end-product gives a false image? Is that proper news journalism?
      All this ranting and arguing and general unpleasantness is not the world I see around me in the global village known as North London (apart from the crime and litter of course).

    16. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:21 pm  

      El Cid

      Asian Dub Foundation aint muslim - most of them are Hindu background

    17. Guvnor — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:23 pm  

      One has to look at the whole issue now and beging to suspect the same old fashioned foul play by stirring up the situation to get exactly the reaction that has happened, as the Russians did during the Cold War, Syria and Iran are being instrumental in trying to make Western countries implode.

      First we have the Danish Imam who took with him three far more offensive pictures. One of which turned out to simply be a bloke with a beard with a pig nose who won a pig squelaing comp in France. This and another two images, one of a Muslim praying being taken from behind by a dog, was far more offensive than any of the cartoons published in Denmark. Given that evidence, i think I could fully understand all the fuss. But the Danish Imam obviously knew what he was doing. Which is another worry about who is speaking to so called ‘moderates’ in Mosques.

      So the thing that was REALLY OFFENSIVE to Muslims turned out to be false. What are Muslims going to do? Kill the poor bloke for winning a pig squealing competition.

      But countries like Syria and Iran know the only way they stand a chance of winning a war, is by trying to stir up some kind of civil war in Europe while our countries are still asleep and in denial. The best way to deal with them is if they start building any Nukes to hit them hard and win a war properly, but of course the Muslims will complain that the West is picking on them. But for a country like Iran to call us their “Enemies” and say they would like to see our allies wiped off the map, is not the kind of people we can trust with Nukes.

      Now it turns out (in such a so called bias media this really should be the news headline on SKY and BBC etc) that these offensive cartoons were published in and Egyptian newspaper over ramadan last year. Funny but I never saw demands made to the Egyptians, or their Embasies burned down. I think it is quite safe to smell a rat here.

      Maybe it is time the Muslim community apologised to the rest of us for the offense they have caused to the rest of us by demanding a change in our fundamental beliefs in freedom, given Egypt have got off scott free.

    18. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:24 pm  

      El Cid

      But the rest of your point makes sense.

    19. Sunny — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:26 pm  

      Mirax:
      An egyptian paper published the supposedly dreadfully offensive cartoons in October 2005.Nary a squeak then. How come you have not highlighted this in the same way you highlight the J-P’s refusal 3 years ago

      Now now young lady, easy before you start shooting from the hip. I already linked the Egyptian Sandmonkey article last night on that very same post as JP’s “we opposed Freedom of speech right before we backed it” stance.

    20. Vikrant — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:53 pm  

      Well unless Middle Eastern countries produce more mature socities, I see no end to this sort of bickering and rioting everytime honour of Prophet is challenged be it by some Danish cartoonists or the legendary-Koran-flushing-incidents. With exception of Kashmir all anti-cartoon demonstrations in South Asia have been peaceful.

    21. Sunny — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:02 pm  

      Malaysia. Even Pakistan has been. Try reading around more Vik. And there has been plenty more… I’ll list them later. All this exaggeration palava…

    22. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:15 pm  

      Jay,
      Apols re Asian Dub Foundation. For some reason I thought they might have been from BanglaTown. Only British Asian music on my iPod.
      I had been hoping for some banging recommendations from PP’ers, but have only found some dodgy tunes to date!

    23. Col. Mustafa — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

      Asian Dub Foundation live around Bangla town and a few of them are bengali if not all.
      I don’t know about the hindu, muslim bengali thing though.

      I kinda know em through some musician m8s and generally every time ive met em weve all been wrecked, so that topic never came up.

    24. BevanKieran — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:26 pm  

      I had been hoping for some banging recommendations from PP’ers.

      Tanita tikaram’s father is Fijian Indian, though it’s more banging head on table music.

    25. Vikrant — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:29 pm  

      Hmm.. Cidboy, ever listened to Cornershop?

    26. Rohin — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:46 pm  

      Cornershop? A bit oldskool now. Didn’t have all that many tunes that I rate highly, but Tjinder was the man.

      BanglaTown, as in Brick Lane, is home to many Muslim Bangladeshis, but the stomping ground of a much more diverse Asian and non-Asian scene. The British Asian music I prefer centres around the area - Shiva Soundsystem, SoB etc. If you want recommendations El Cid, I shall endeavour to get you some when I have time. I could design a better compilation CD than all the crap out there. I know Jay has some good taste too…but a bit too much bhangra for this non-Punjabi.

    27. Col. Mustafa — on 9th February, 2006 at 1:48 pm  

      Its all about METALLLLLLL.

      Among other forms of music too.

    28. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:05 pm  

      Rohin, that’s a nang idea as the Hackney Massives say!
      Any gaps in your music? How about a swap?
      I’ve got some wicked house, jazzfunk, funk, nujazz, nusoul, soulful house, roots reggae, lovers, disco, 80s grooves, swing, r’n'b, hip-hop, Brit-hop, latin jazz, acid jazz, handbag house, chillout house, techno, electro .. (bit of a MOBO theme here, huh, but I have plenty white stuff too)
      What u need?

    29. Siddharth — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:08 pm  

      ahem,

      This is my radio station:
      Radio.TiffinBox

      enjoy

    30. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:12 pm  

      i’ll check that out later. unknownfm is my recommendation

    31. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:13 pm  

      that’s unknownfm

    32. Col. Mustafa — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:23 pm  

      What about M.I.A??

      GALANGA GALANGA GALANGA or whatever the fuck shes going about.

      You guys forget about good ole Jay Sean and you know, everything that he does.

      Theres always Raghav and how he generally likes women of all sorts.

    33. contrarymary — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:29 pm  

      El Cid - British Asian music recommendations… personally I would say give a very wide berth to the sickly sweet R&B pop of Jay Sean. aka the new craig david.

      there’s some interesting, weird rap/spoken word from a guy called Yam Boy www.yamboy.net

      Swami’s interesting - he’s produced for Shania Twain, but his own stuff is rock-rap-punk-bhangra

      um, for all the excitement and media hype there is about a british asian music scene, it’s not that happening outside of the bhangra scene.

      Shiva Soundystem are good and do messed up electronica and breakbeat with asian influences. but haven’t released anything til this summer

      Nasha do something similar and their Eastern Drum & Breaks compilations have some cracking drum & bass but no real advancements on the 1997/1998 Asian underground sound.

      keep an ear out for an artist called Mukul - a bombay lad doing deep, dubby electronica, kind of massive attack-y with laced with bluesy musings on big city life.

      apologies for the completely unrelated to original thread posting, but how boring is this constructed controversy on cartoons??? yawn, yawn, yawn. how long will it be til the next evil Islam , clash of civilisations story erupts. I would wager it will happen before March.

    34. Siddharth — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:31 pm  

      El Cid
      Have you heard Savath e Savalas? Its the work of Scott Herren, hiphop electronica genius. Savath is basically Catalan folk and electronica. Beautiful songs, beautiful instruments resampled through Herren’s computer. Sublimo!

    35. Siddharth — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:33 pm  

      And yeah, Savath e Savalas and other leftfield electronica ting an ting, can be heard on Radio.TiffinBox

    36. Uncleji returning to the fray — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:38 pm  

      Jay S says in post 13
      “One thing I have noticed is that the Sikh Federation, for example, is getting more and more active as Sikhs are becoming more integrated and successful. ”

      Duo points to make on this:
      1) successful & integrated do not necessary go hand in hand. In his seminal “sikhs in england” Arthur Helweg observes that it was later educated professional educated sikhs who encouraged the brunt of discrimination as they entered into professions which were previous white only preserves, while the unskilled or self unemployed did not violate these areas.
      2) The Sikh Federation it a very well organised, disciplined and media savy organisation. Especially when it is compared with the previous mouthpiece to the state and non sikhs supposely the Network of Sikh Organisations which in fact is the one man band of Indarjit Singh OBE.

      The postive effect is SF appearance is the raise the less ideological NSO to raise its game (the old geezer actually got a email address now), and make more of an effort to reach out to the mass of sikhs.

    37. David T — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:54 pm  

      Tjinder is sikh. Lives round my area and looks to me as if he’s been doing too much coke

    38. Rohin — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:54 pm  

      Check out Yamboy. He molests me. Repeatedly.

      Colonel go to the bottom of the class. The reason I am friends with the Asians that I am friends with, is that when we talk music, Raghav/Gay Porn/Rishi don’t even get mentioned - not even to slag them off. They just don’t exist in our universe.

      Although… (ignore the text, it’s the picture I’m showing)

      A proper music talk demands more attention than I’m afraid I can give at the mo. And I don’t really want to stray off topic so soon.

    39. Chris Stiles — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:55 pm  

      atheist muslims

      There are contradictions between using ‘muslim’ as a proxy for culture/ethnicity and the concept of a global ummah.

      And only the oldest of the Abrahamic religions really has the concept of an ‘atheist member of this faith’. If Siddharth is an atheist, then there is no reason he should take umbrage or identify.

    40. Col. Mustafa — on 9th February, 2006 at 2:59 pm  

      Come onnnnn, youv’e heard about how Jay Sean is coming back as a serious rapper now.
      hehehehe.

      Im waiting for an Asian Metal band, with something to say.

    41. Siddharth — on 9th February, 2006 at 3:11 pm  

      If Siddharth is an atheist, then there is no reason he should take umbrage or identify.

      What are you tokking?

    42. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 3:13 pm  

      Uncleji

      The Sikh Federation are a bunch of identity-politician beggars with a nasty sideline in policing Sikh mores and grabbing power than ‘reaching out to the Sikh masses’ - they detest successful and secular Sikhs. Communalist too.

    43. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 4:00 pm  

      thanks for the music tips.
      as for the Catalan folk music (!). i’ll give it a whirl, but don’t tell my Castillian mum.
      Apols for more going OT.
      No harm in having a PP-Light afternoon.

    44. Rohin — on 9th February, 2006 at 4:39 pm  

      Hey, never apologise for going OT, that’s when the cool stuff happens. PP-Lite, I like the sound of that. Perhaps every Friday afternoon I’ll try to post up something daft, but somewhat related. Like Bradford being the UK’s fattest town, or something.

    45. Col. Mustafa — on 9th February, 2006 at 4:46 pm  

      Or how the new line of Ann Summers sex dolls is called “Mustafa shag”.

      hee hee hee

      Although seeing as though there might be protesting again from certain people; it not be seen as PP lite.

    46. Chris Stiles — on 9th February, 2006 at 4:57 pm  


      If Siddharth is an atheist, then there is no reason he should take umbrage or identify.

      What are you tokking?

      Right - I assume ‘El Cid’ was wrong.

    47. Siddharth — on 9th February, 2006 at 5:11 pm  

      my question to you was because this sentence reads funny:
      If Siddharth is an atheist, then there is no reason he should take umbrage or identify.

      How does Siddhartha take identity?

      Siddhartha is a Baul-Sufi, if that answers your question.

    48. Chris Stiles — on 9th February, 2006 at 5:57 pm  


      my question to you was because this sentence reads funny:
      If Siddharth is an atheist, then there is no reason he should take umbrage or identify.

      Apologies. Assuming that you were an atheist, I didn’t see why you should take umbrage or identify as someone who the cartoons were aimed at offending.
      It was a continuation of my point that the term ‘atheistic muslim’ seems to be an oxymoron.

      Questions of taste, and the responsible use of free speech aside - as they are separate.

    49. Sunny — on 9th February, 2006 at 7:15 pm  

      Bastards, hijacking my thread again.

      Just to add my two cents, Rohin loves being repeatedly molested by Yamboy, and I have to say Yamboy and Goondaraj are pretty good… not leftfield as much off off the scale. MIA is cool! I like her album… not as excellent as some people have made it out to be, but still quite innovative…

      Is Indarjit Singh MBE the guy from Sikh Messenger and regularly on Radio 4?

    50. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 7:29 pm  

      Sunny

      Yeah - that’s the guy - good man compared to the rest of them, although he is getting old now. I like Dr Jeevan Deol.

    51. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 9:08 pm  

      Chris Stiles,
      Yes, obviously, it is an oxymoron but I chose the words carefully and I imagine that the reason other commentators let it pass is because they recognise that the world doesn’t divide neatly between religious people and non-religious people.
      Celtic fans would describe themselves as Catholics and Rangers fans as Protestants, but I bet many of them have never seen the inside of the church, let alone have much time for a God.
      Similarly, a boy may have a loving or begrudging respect for the rites, traditions and beliefs of his muslim parents and muslim upbringing and yet decide that science rules the universe.
      Many people treat religious identity as cultural badge.
      I for one am an agnostic Catholic and veering towards atheist Catholic after an argument with my falangist Auntie who is a nun. So I’m a hypocrite and intellectually untidy? Like I give a shit.

    52. Jay Singh — on 9th February, 2006 at 9:10 pm  

      El Cid

      Another example would be how it is perfectly possible to be an atheist Jew - to identify with the culture and ethos whilst not practising or believing.

    53. El Cid — on 9th February, 2006 at 9:33 pm  

      I see Yamboy and Michael Bolton have something in common — they both have an album called The Hunger.
      Fricking iStore is shite. Any suggested websites for checking this stuff out and downloading?

    54. Steve M — on 10th February, 2006 at 12:00 am  

      Did anyone else see Saira Khan (entrepreneur on ‘The Apprentice’ and a Muslim) on tonight’s ‘This week’?

      Outstanding.

    55. Chris Stiles — on 10th February, 2006 at 12:54 am  

      El Cid -

      It is certainly possible to identify with a religion on a cultural level. Contradictions aside, I am not going to insist - Rainman style - that everyone fits neatly into a set of categories. [re the Jewishexample, see my comment on Abrahamic faiths above.]

      I would argue that it is not particularly useful or profitable to do so in this context. To say “I as an unobservant member of support so-and-so as a moderate who reflects my views” would largely have the effect of infuriating most of the observant, and uniting them against you. Far better to argue the aspects of the issue that aren’t directly to do with .

      As for why things have to be organised: at issue here, amongst others, is the ability of small organised groups of people to do great harm and pull the some of society with them. I’m not sure the alternative of sniffing the air and writing something is necessarily realistic, it would be too easy to slip into or be accused of delusional thinking.

    56. Sunny — on 10th February, 2006 at 1:12 am  

      I like Dr Jeevan Deol
      Me too. He’s very intelligent and articulate.

      El Cid - I think yamboy.net

    57. Francis Sedgemore — on 10th February, 2006 at 3:06 am  

      FLEMMING ROSE - DEFENESTRATED!!

      Well, maybe not quite, but the Culture Editor of Jyllands-Posten, who commissioned the Mohammed cartoons, and has continued to make a complete arse of himself since, has been sent on indefinite leave. The Politiken story can be found here.

      The straw that broke the camel’s back was Rose’s appearance on CNN to announce that he had contacted Iranian journalists, and planned to publish some anti-Semitic and anti-Christian cartoons on the same day they are published in Iran. Jyllands-Posten’s Editor-in-Chief, Carsten Juste, went ballistic on hearing of this, and has decided that enough is enough.

    58. Peter Pedersen — on 10th February, 2006 at 4:57 am  

      I think alot of moderate muslims are staying away from the debate out of meer and sheer fear. Many moslems in Europe have fled from these dictatorships, and dont want to find themselves be running again.

      Luckily not all keep quiet, fx this fine woman:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4698528.stm

      ..

      In the mean time we can then consider whether Prince Charles really has become an islamist:

      http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/119

      ..

      The islamists dont seem to hold them selves back when it comes to story-fabrication. I will post this example just for the thrill:

      http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2634

      I hope this all doesnt become to neo-con for yall :-)

    59. Kulvinder — on 10th February, 2006 at 5:50 am  

      As far as i know Ayaan Hirsi Ali doesn’t say shes a muslim.

      http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/119

      What exactly was the point in that article?

    60. El Cid — on 10th February, 2006 at 7:47 am  

      I concede that it might be too easy to slip into or be accused of delusional thinking, but then that would provide the checks and balances needed to keep the story nearer to the truth.
      Better than the institionalised delusional stance of the media which is to assume that those who are loudest should constantly dictate the agenda. It’s still spin of a sort that they are churning out..

    61. El Cid — on 10th February, 2006 at 7:53 am  

      As for your initial point Chris Stiles, I disagree wholeheartedly. Where I’m at is where most other people are — the pragmatic, middle ground.
      Let these people you refer to “unite against me”. I’m up for the fight.

    62. El Cid — on 10th February, 2006 at 8:36 am  

      So what’s your agenda Mr Stiles? Are you in the media or do you want the racial battlelines to be drawn more clearly?

    63. Chris Stiles — on 10th February, 2006 at 9:53 am  

      Better than the institionalised delusional stance of the media which is to assume that those who are loudest should constantly dictate the agenda.

      Except that in this particular case some of the loudest groups have a propensity for violence - which is newsworthy

      I’m neither with the media nor feel the need for racial battlelines clear or otherwise.

    64. El Cid — on 10th February, 2006 at 11:23 am  

      What are your political leanings Mr. Stiles?

    65. Chris Stiles — on 10th February, 2006 at 12:01 pm  

      an immigrant, a self confessed social democrat, a man or woman who by his or her own admission has classical liberal leanings.

    66. El Cid — on 10th February, 2006 at 1:11 pm  

      you seem to be unsure of your gender

    67. El Cid — on 10th February, 2006 at 1:12 pm  

      having just seen this, I shall get back to you later today

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