Jyllands-Posten goes after Jews
Flemming Rose, the culture editor of Danish daily
Jyllands-Posten , said today he was trying to get in touch with the Iranian paper, Hamshari, which plans to run an international competition seeking cartoons about the Holocaust.“My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with the Iranian newspaper, and we would run the
cartoons the same day as they publish them,” Mr Rose told CNN. [Guardian]
So can we assume that after Jewish organisations complain, othe European papers will also reprint them?
Muslim organisations here, politically useless in this whole joke of a controversy, have decided to stage another rally Saturday. Rather peversely, I’d like to see Al-Ghuarabaa hijack this too.
Update by Sunny: JP has clarified saying it would happen only after it took “a decision on their standard”. And have now backtracked completely.
Another Update: Will you be boycotting Egypt too?
Another update by Sunny: Turns out culture editor of JP, Flemming Rose, had a nice chat with Daniel Pipes in 2004 too. [via Postman].
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C’mon Al-Hack, at least recognise that other European papers only reprinted them because of the SCALE and INTIMIDATORY manner of the fuss.
I’m bored of this now.
Copenhagen must be on the bombing list by now.
You can be sure that we’ll be reprinting them as well.
Of course, we’ll certainly be accused of ‘deliberately stirring up hatred against all Muslims’ or ‘paving the way for a BushHitler invasion of Iran’ or something like that.
Ok so why are we still talking about them? See if you guys were like Americans you would be back to your normal lives of conspicuous consumptions Suckers!!!!
what kind of people work at that newspaper? they’ve managed to (quite rightly) anger the Muslim populus of many countries, so now they’re going after Jews?
How crazy/stupid are these people?
Copenhagen must be on the bombing list by now. – Jay Singh
Shame really, i quite liked Copenhagen on my last visit…
we’ll certainly be accused of ‘deliberately stirring up hatred against all Muslims’
yes, well, if the shoe fits…
Trouble is, the shoe is manufactured in places like Iran.
But there are always perverse people who insist that they can nevertheless detect the hand of a grand zionist conspiracy of shoemakers …
Is this analogy sufficiently laboured?
I didn’t hear a word mentioned about “zionist conspiracies behind the cartoons” from a single person, Muslim and Non-Muslim, who I spoke to about this. But then the people I spoke to are the not the type to set embassies ablaze. But then again most people are not. Most people are not racist, Muslim-hating piss-takers either. I think you’ve shoe-horned a minority position about conspiracies to back up your view of the efficacy of the cartoons.
It is appalling that Iranian newspaper wants to follow suit.
And worse the Danish newspaper wishes to reprint.
Don’t the Iranian’s understand the political nature of the Danish newspaper and its government? Far-right I read elsewhere with a record from way before WW2.
As for the Danish newspaper – it must be Christmas, they get to abuse the Jews all over again, having pulled off a masterstroke with the muslims.
I don’t want an apology, its all too late for that. What I want is separation. Economic and political.
Let the 3rd world learn from China and India how to stand on its own two feet.
Let the muslim world work with Africa to jointly develop – establish serious relationships with Israel – bring them into the fold.
Jews understand much better the pain felt and offence caused by this primitive newspaper and the false messengers of freedom of speech.
Trade honestly with all peoples; for everyone on this earth are due their living and it is trade that is source of harmony across peoples. Expect dishonest brokers at every turn – shun them.
Educate everyone and always look for knowledge and respect true scholars and teachers of every faith.
Do not bully and do not be bullied.
Ehrm. I think the Danish newspaper in question has decided against publication. The conspiracy theory is back on track!
Can we move on now, or at least judge future cartoons on their individual merit? I’m still confused by whether the offense caused is the very representation of Mohammed in any form or the fact the cartoons were unpalatable racial caricatures. Or both
Did I say I was getting bored of this?
Yes you did – but as all addicts……
…..you will come back for more.
As El Cid notes above, Jyllands-Posten will not be publishing the Iranian cartoons on the Shoah. There’s a brief article in Jyllands-Posten – in English – but this says very little. The rival (and somewhat Grauniad-like) Politiken newspaper has a more substantial story, but this is in Danish only. For those interested, the story can be found here.
Reading between the lines, it seems like the Culture Editor at Jyllands-Posten, Flemming Rose (who commissioned the original Mohammed cartoons), had a fit of pique, and made some typically Danish sarcastic remarks to a CNN reporter, who quoted him in full. Jyllands-Posten’s Editor-in-Chief, Carsten Juste, has slapped-down Rose, and all at Jyllands-Posten are now trying desperately to save face.
Oh, and just to add, Jyllands-Posten and Politiken are rivals, politically, but they are both owned by the “Politikens Hus” holding company.
So sad – the Editor-in-Chief wasn’t around when it really mattered.
So sad – the Editor-in-Chief wasn’t around when it really mattered. [Refresh]
Carsten Juste has always struck me as being a bit of a dozy pillock. Not that Flemming Rose is the brightest star in the firmament, mind.
They refused to publish a cartoon of Christ two years ago on the basis that ‘it would offend the sensibilities of our readers’
So now this looks like a ‘just look how pro-free speech we really are’ stunt.
Inconsistent? Saving face? Sure.
Principles? Keep fishing.
Francis
What is the most offensive thing you can say to a Danish person. This isn’t for personal use but I’m guessing the Iranians could do with some help. An archive of anti-Scandanavian invective might, just might, break the curious “Danish paper insult Muslims-Iranian paper insult Jews” coupling.
Seems like only Islam is a target for Jyllands-Posten.
Editor-in-Chief Carsten Juste said his newspaper Jyllands-Posten “in no circumstances will publish Holocaust cartoons from an Iranian newspaper.” LINK
Not that I want to see them post any more offensive cartoons, but JP is completely all over the place.
By the way, The Egyptians had already published this cartoon ages ago:
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/boycott-egypt.html
That sandmonkey article is a bit misrepresenting.
It refers to them being published in egypt in October 2005, but the original publishing of them in Denmark on 30 September 2005 by Jyllands-Posten pre-dates this.
There was requests that they be removed and an apology given since this time.
Strange world we live in – is the media having to spin itself out of its own pit?
Just read the link from Jamal above (Scotsman) – seems to suggest perhaps the Iranian newspaper may offer the cartoons to the Danish one – in which case they will reject. Was it not the Danish paper seeking to publish any that appear in the Iranian paper that very same day?
My oh my. How could the Scotsman have misunderstood? Or just looking after one of their owh?
What is the most offensive thing you can say to a Danish person. [BevanKieran]
Let’s not go there, please!
What I will say is that the Danes are very close to their ethnic descendants, the non-Celtic white English. Your name indicates that you’re either Irish or are of Irish, and therefore Celtic, ancestry, but there’s a good chance you know what makes the white English tick. If so, you’ll come close to understanding the Danes.
I’m not going to give you any Danish insults, but will point out that the burning of the Danebrog – the Danish national flag – is very, very hurtful to the Danes. That may be dificult for an English person to understand, but it’s one of the principal differences between England and the mother country (as it were).
OK, BevanKieran, I’ll give you one…
Call the Danes “plucky” – as in, “Those plucky little Danes; aren’t they so brave?” – and you may well get a stream of abuse back (and justifiably so!). Check out the Central liberties thread in Harry’s Place to see what I mean.
I now know more about denmark than i ever did before the scandal.
What? Theres a positive to everything.
Anywho from the media coverage you’d believe the world is divided between non-muslims frothing at the mouth about the islamic world’s double standards and the muslim world is frothing at the mouth about the ‘west’s’ double standards. I was dissapointed in newsnights take on everything, bringing in polar and extreme views and inviting them to make idiotic statements doesn’t mean you’ve somehow represented the thought of the ’silent majority’.
Newsnight is becoming like CNN…. just put two diameterically opposed points of view on screen, let them shout at each other, and hope it makes good TV. The viewer comes out no better informed.
Don’t the Danes like being called plucky? But its always nice to see the little guy (about whom you knew nothing) do something
:-p
Incidently i hope by accepting how idiotic it would be for any newspaper to re-publish shit drawings on the holocaust everyone realises how idiotic it was originally for those other newspapers to go off on a self-righteous tangent.
Why shouldn’t Flemming Rose have discussions with Daniel Pipes. After all Daniel Pipes is most likely to know how to cause the most offence to muslims with every prospect of being condemned for being offended. A cynical genius, almost on a par with Melanie Philips, but with better contacts.
God help us all.
Hmmn, let’s see. So far Flemming Rose’s allegedly racist and/or islamophobic impulses are revealed by :
1. The J-P’s fascist history in the 1920’s
2. An interview with Daniel Pipes who makes it clear that in that same interview that his beef is with Militant Islam and makes, by now, rather routine points about said ideology.
I hear the bottom of the barrel being scraped…but carry on.
To say Daniel Pipes’ beef is with militant Islam is to draw an incomplete conclusion. He wants all Muslim immigration to the US stopped, all research on any form of Islamic study to be curtailed in the US, to have academics involved in such research to be dropped unless they are of a neocon persuasion and has advocated that Muslims be detained in concentration camps. Those are “routine points”? More like shades early anti-Judaism in Germany and Austria in the 30s.
The thing about mendacious racists like Pipes, is that, like Griffin, they’re far too polished to be publicly drawn on their real agenda.
Mirax, that’s precisely where we are all at – scraping the barrel.
Conversation is proving not pointless, but worthless.
Actually, to correct myself, more than “shades”. I’d say a direct parallel. The story of Straussian NeoCons demonstrates the now common and high-profile pattern of how extreme-Leftists drift to extreme-Right Wing tendencies (with all the ideological baggage that that entails) without trace of any emotional residue. Hello C Hitchens and the ProWar Left.
Sid
i don’t agree with your categorisation of Hitchens and the pro-war Left. Having studied their views I think that they are still on the Left but are very robust in their defence of Left values in the face of clerical extremism.
I think that Harry’s Place does a good job of pointing to the links between the various Islamist groups in the UK and their entryist strategies and that is good for any secular person – because they need to be monitored and if the Left dont do it you leave the way open for the Right.
I agree their comments page is full of creeps sometimes but they themselves are on the right road.
Harry’s Place’s flirtation with the Right is a sinusoidal curve. Or is that my own flirtation with HP? I dunno. But that Brownie’s position and argument against the cartoons was passionate and intelligent enough to give me a stiffy…
Dude, please don’t use words like ’sinusoidal’ – it makes me feel inadequate!
Ahem. I had to look that one up too.
So can we assume that after Jewish organisations complain, othe European papers will also reprint them?
It’s fair to assume that Jews will not riot, burn flags or make death threats.
Siddharth – you are wrong about Pipes – he draws a distinction between Islam and Islamism (in my opinion a false one) and is no kind of racist. Islam is not a race, it is an ideology, whose rotten fruit we have seen recently in abundance.
OP: Defending Pipes? For shame!
Damn I have posted a long comment about Egypt and in the headline article, but have just seen it in here. Not heard any out cry about Egypt. The Embassy is not burning or anything.
Harry’s Place’s flirtation with the Right is a sinusoidal curve. [Siddharth]
Well, I know what Sid means, but TBH I’m getting thoroughly fed up with the use of terms such as “Left” and “Right”, primarily because they have little meaning today outside arguments on economic policy. But to use the now discredited definitions of Left and Right, Hitchens remains Left as he continues to believe in much of the old socialist programme. He’s also Right as he has a boorish, conservative temperament.
As for Harry’s Place, there’s a of of ugly language being thrown about in there, and much of it is fascistic in tone. Jay acknowledges the creepiness, but then defends the creeps by implying that they’re basically on the right road. The problem with this interpretation is that neither Jay nor I are in a position to properly assess the individuals behind the statements, unless we know them personally. It’s not as if we’re sitting in a room together, making eye contact and assessing body language. Also, blog contributors do not expound their thoughts in long, detailed essays, they often hide behind noms-de-guerre and use fake email addresses. That this is sometimes necessary I have no doubt, but there’s no way I’m going to state that j.bloggs, for example, is a bit of a tit for using silly, inflammatory language in Harry’s Place, but I’m sure he’s a decent chap/ess really. I simply don’t know, and so have to take the comments at face value.
Francis
I meant the comments page has creeps in it – the main bloggers I think do a good job – especially the man called David T
OP: Defending Pipes?
Yep, too right. Wish there were more like him.
Jay
I knew you meant the comments and not the bloggers. I have no problem with the latter. I disagree with some of David T’s recent contributions, but he does argue his case with courtesy and consideration for others. It’s the racists in the comments pages I find repulsive.
Unfortunately, there are plenty more like him. Nick Griffin for one.
For good ole Sid, all those who dont agree with him are facists,communalists, arent they?
Sorry Jay, for my mis-parsing of your sentence:
I agree their comments page is full of creeps sometimes but they themselves are on the right road.
I thought you meant that even the creeps had a valid point … sometimes.
Vikrant, so people are racists/facists when they deface your website with racist invective but not when they’re calling for Muslims to be detained in concentration camps? There’s right-wing politics and there’s selective asshole logic, Vik. The two are not always compliant but you’re making me believe they are.
they’re calling for Muslims to be detained in concentration camps?
Reference please.
How about the bellacio website Sunny linked to in his OP (original post), OP.
“He wants all Muslim immigration to the US stopped, all research on any form of Islamic study to be curtailed in the US, to have academics involved in such research to be dropped unless they are of a neocon persuasion and has advocated that Muslims be detained in concentration camps. ”
I did not know any of the above, honest. Where did you find this information and could you please link it?
AFAIK, Pipes’ own website (i’ve been there a total of 3 times only) gives no hint of this nefarious, fascistic agenda. If true, then the J-P article is piss-poor journalism.
Pipes’ mantra is “militant Islam is the problem; moderate Islam is the solution”.
PIpes’ mantra is ALL Muslims are inherently militant, that Islam is inherently evil and therefore should be detained in concentration camps.
On Pipes’ calls to proscribe Muslim academics
http://newsmine.org/archive/propoganda/war-on-academic-freedom.txt
Pipes arguing for the case of detaining Muslims:
Cole on Pipes on Concentration Camps:
http://207.44.245.159/article7581.htm#p1
from the last link;
‘The intrepid Malkin, a specialist on immigration,…’
Nice one, Sid.
ha ha
So Pipes believes in internment?
Oh dear.
Never mind, Old Pickler.
Pipes says:
For years, it has been my position that the threat of radical Islam implies an imperative to focus security measures on Muslims. If searching for rapists, one looks only at the male population. Similarly, if searching for Islamists (adherents of radical Islam), one looks at the Muslim population.
Clearly, therefore, he means Islamists, not Muslims as a whole. As regards Muslims, he merely states that, when searching for radical Muslims, it is Muslims, rather than, say, Catholics that need to be monitored.
To interpret this as a call for all Muslims to be put in concentration camps is absurd. The ethnic Japanese, were, in any case in internment camps, not concentrations camps.
The Nazis put all Jews, not “just” militant ones – not that there were any – in real concentration camps, not internment camps.
Your implication of moral equivalence is absurd.
Sid, Pipes is a nasty piece of work to be sure but what is the point in exaggerating the extent of his ‘evil’?
You said :“He wants all Muslim immigration to the US stopped.”
No link, no proof.
You said : all research on any form of Islamic study to be curtailed in the US
But the campus watch project , typically horrible neo-con witch-hunting, is political harrassment (aimed at supposedly liberal ME studies academics) at the very worst is it not? Not a call for ALL ME research to be banned and the academics to be rounded up and cattle penned.
You said : to have academics involved in such research to be dropped unless they are of a neocon persuasion
Yes, there is undoubtedly a political witch-hunt going on initiated by Pipes. His father’s madness runs in him for sure.
You said : and has advocated that Muslims be detained in concentration camps. ”
The last two links you posted were about the same article he wrote, praising Malkin’s book/ideas.
Yes, he is making a case for racial/ethnic/religious profiling at best and ‘internment’ of the WW2 Japanese variety, at worst.Reprehensible. The man is a foaming at the mouth fascist.Anyone who thinks the civil liberties of fellow citizens can be so easily suspended and abused is beyond the pale.
I wish though that the phrase “concentration camps ” was not used. What Pipes gave a nod to, hiding behind Malkin (who seems a right piece of work), is reprehensible enough without evoking industrial scale death and torture.
I see that the J-P article should have at the very least brought up the campus watch project and Pipes’ casual, callous attitude to civil rights.
Pipes makes no distinction between Muslim opinion in any way. And thats even how Malkin interprets his ideas. Pipes also wants Arab-sympathetic academics to be removed from their positions.
And, for the nth time, no one made a moral equivalence with Nazis. But that does make internment acceptable then?
Er, if anyone is confused, I am not on OP’s side on ANY issue, EVER.
hope I die before I grow OLD (like that)
mirax:
taking on your post piecemeal.
Pipes on Muslim immigration; how would you interpret this:
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/002292.html
If that was by Nick Griffin, it would be expected.
Do a google and make up your own mind.
To choose to defend him is to step into a pile of foul smelling cultural relativism. Your choice.
This amnation link on Pipes unwillingness to differentiate between Muslim types.
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/001957.html
I actually went to the frontpage (uggh) article and read it. It is true, Pipes does not maintain the pretence of the distinction between muslims and islamists for long and writes thus :
· Immigration from other sources. Latin Americans, being Christian, would more or less permit Europe to keep its historic identity. Hindus and Chinese would increase the diversity of cultures, making it less likely that Islam would dominate.
Not an outright call for banning muslim immigration but it is clearly implied anyway.
I think that I am hardly defending Pipes but since, you do seem to so enjoy playing Witch-finder General yourself and i’ve had enough of it, sod off!
huh?
It’s fair to assume that Jews will not riot, burn flags or make death threats.
they’ll send in the gun-ships instead?
/bait
Sorry mirax, that last sentence was aimed at OP. No offence implied.
Is Malkin the one who believes Muslims should be interned like the Japanese were?
Immigration from other sources. Latin Americans, being Christian, would more or less permit Europe to keep its historic identity. Hindus and Chinese would increase the diversity of cultures, making it less likely that Islam would dominate.
He’s quite right. You may be happy for Islam to dominate. I’m not.
In fact Pipes repeatedly distinguishes Islam and Islamism, a false distinction in my view. There is Islam-lite, and the full blown thing.
“Islam-Lite, and the full blown thing”
Where did you pick that analysis up from? ha ha.
Sorry, yes. straight face.
Pipes makes no distinctions as mirax has pointed out in [60] and the link I posted in [61].
Have you actually read any of his books, in which he makes the distinction over and over again?
Have you actually read this on Pipes, by a Right Wing blog:
Oh please! Pipes is another one of those monkeys who keeps rabitting on about militant Islam as a pretext for all Muslims.
“you know these Muslims wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for their religion.” Heh.
I agree we should make the distinction, and I hate militants (from all religions) as much as Pipes (hard to believe, I know), but atleast I make the distinction between the two openly. Assuming everyone’s opinions are homogenous is silly, and thats what Pipes assumes, going by his garbage I read on Frontpage.
I’ll wager Nick Cohen gets his shit from Pipes.
I think you’re being unfair on Cohen Sid, but OP, how can you possibly have any affinity with this Pipes fellow and his odious ideas? I’m not one to throw political labels around and to pigeonhole people’s thinking, but you really are more fascistic than I imagined.
I don’t have any problem with cladestine infiltration of some muslim organisations and monitoring of some mosques in the current climate — that’s legit intelligence work — but registering the whearabouts of an entire subset of the population?
What kind of extreme war situation do you think we are in and what is it you’re fighting for exactly?
Or maybe you also think we should insert chips in the brains of all children born to poor people as a means of tackling crime?
I’d like to hear Old Pickler’s response to that too.
“you know these Muslims wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t for their religion.”
Quite. The less Muslim Muslims are the better.
What kind of extreme war situation do you think we are in and what is it you’re fighting for exactly
Islam as an ideology is incompatible with women’s rights, gay rights, rights of the individual, free speech, free scientific enquiry, art, music, literature and everything that makes life worth living. This is a war, for now an ideological one, but muslims seem to want to turn it into a military one.
Or maybe you also think we should insert chips in the brains of all children born to poor people as a means of tackling crime?
Mind blowingly irrelevant. Most of the muslims who murder, eg the Saudi hijackers, the July 7 bombers, Daniel Pearl’s (public school) murderer are filthy rich by any standards. It is the ideology of Islam, not poverty that explains their actions.
You’re own believe system is apparently also incompatible with the rights of the individual and possibly free speech mang.
Your
mi enrish nt wery okey
Thank you Old Pickler for your candidness.
Daniel Pipes has been misinterpreted. Everyone welcome but muslims?
Isn’t that precisley what the cartoon fiasco is really about:
Note the statement at the time :
The OIC issued a condemnation of the cartoons: “[We express our] concern at rising hatred against Islam and Muslims and condemned the recent incident of desecration of the image of the Holy Prophet Mohamed.”
The cartoons are seen as the starkest manifestation of the visceral hatred amongst the ascendant far-right – now marching into the mainstream.
The visceral hatred flows the other way. Hatred of the West. Hatred of our traditions of free speech, our success, our free women.
Of all muslims and of all times? Of all ‘westerners’ and of all times?
And when you fire up your gas chambers – will you let go of all the oppressed muslim women?
I think Old Pickler does mean of all Muslims and of all times – collective guilt – hardline and unceasing.
I think Old Pickler does mean of all Muslims and of all times – collective guilt – hardline and unceasing.
Exactly. Which frees her from any guilt associated with supporting and identifying repulsive ideolgies like Pipes’.
Its the “I want to have my fascist cake but be perceived as a liberal too” thing very common in HP-land.
I mean Islam for all time, yes. And many Muslims at many times. Not all. Some, thank goodness, don’t take their “religion” seriously.
Gas chambers? Hardly. Just an end to Muslim immigration and open season on criticism of Islam. Hardly the same, now is it?
Pipes doesn’t have an ‘ideology’! WTF! He highlights miltiant Islam and you try to tar him with the brush of an ‘ideology’!
He provides a valuable service. There’s a lot of dumb people in the world who think there are two types of Islam evil and good. There is only one Islam, it’s what you do with that counts.
“Gas chambers? Hardly. Just an end to Muslim immigration and open season on criticism of Islam. Hardly the same, now is it? ”
No not the same – only another brick in the wall.
Old Pickler
Do you at least acknowledge that when the open season starts on Muslims there may come a point in which legitimate criticism of Islamism ends and active persecution of human beings begins? Will you be able to discern that point? And are you confident that others will be able to?
This is the wikipedia entry for LGF.
In particular, note the list “Ideological Influences”:
Posts on LGF frequently cite the writing and views of Daniel Pipes, Victor Davis Hanson, Charles Krauthammer, Mark Steyn, Oriana Fallaci, and James Lileks.
Do you at least acknowledge that when the open season starts on Muslims there may come a point in which legitimate criticism of Islamism ends and active persecution of human beings begins? Will you be able to discern that point? And are you confident that others will be able to?
I said open season on Islam, not on Muslims. Many Muslims are decent people, ie they don’t behave like Mohammed.
In any case there has been open season on Christianity for quite a while now.
In any case there has been open season on Christianity for quite a while now.
Yes but come on, OP, we all know kid gloves are required when talking about Islam or Muslims.
Feel free to denigrate Christians or Christianity, but woe betide those who criticise our Islamic friends.
Siddarth you seem to think you have made some valid point in #88! Please enlighten me.
El Cid: Or maybe you also think we should insert chips in the brains of all children born to poor people as a means of tackling crime?
OP: Mind blowingly irrelevant. Most of the muslims who murder, eg the Saudi hijackers, the July 7 bombers, Daniel Pearl’s (public school) murderer are filthy rich by any standards. It is the ideology of Islam, not poverty that explains their actions.
Blimey, we are blinkered. *waves hands* Cooey, I’m over here.
Let’s start again? You perceive a problem amongst some muslims and Pipes’ solution is to treat ALL muslims as a potential problem by forcing them to register, in the same way that all drivers, say, have to be registered.
So, I was just thinking, why not extend that logic to the broader population? Why not look at the linkage between crime and poverty, say, and plant a chip into the brains of all new-born babies?
Similarly, since all men are potential rapists, why not put some tracking device on their penises?
Ultimately, the irresistable temptation for people like you would be to seek a ‘final’ solution, and don’t we all know it.
Old Pickler
But do you not think that there is a risk of open season on Islam becoming open season on Muslims? That was the question I was asking. In the real world, on the street.
There’s a lot of dumb people in the world Ain’t that the truth. But there are dumb people of every religion.
There is only one Islam, it’s what you do with that counts.
That is over-simplifying a tad. There are plenty of different interpretations of Christinianity and Judaism and as there is different interpretations within Islam.
I think such nuances are beyond you two.
In any case there has been open season on Christianity for quite a while now.
What OP and j0nz have both conveniently sidestepped is that the from the above justification, it would be just for peurile racists to validate themselves in other ways as similar. So we could have the statement
“In any case there has been open season on Black people for quite some time now, so whats wrong with attacking Chinese people”
One racism cannot be a foil to justify another. Unless you’re a pathalogical racist that is.
OP and j0nz are also the type of people who have shown time and time again, that they make it a point to aggressively make others apologise for drawing attention to their racism.
Siddarth you seem to think you have made some valid point in #88! Please enlighten me.
j0nz, I think you made a typically up-in-arms comment in 85 that Daniel Pipes’ ideas are not an ideology. Whereas the wiki entry suggests that the LGF ideology is influenced by Pipes’ ideology.
The open season on Christianity has been from within and not from the East.
Also, Eastern Christianity has never declared “open season” on Christianity.
Blimey, we are blinkered. *waves hands* Cooey, I’m over here.
hee hee!
I am all for criticising Islamism and I do think there is a big issue of confronting Islamists who speak in the guise of ‘community representatives’ – after 7/7 this has to be done.
But I just wonder if Old Pickler ever considers the ways in which open season on Islam can become open season on Muslims, and if that is a concern for her.
The ‘open season’ on Christianity is an interesting thought. In the modern sense it began with Darwin attacking the central tenets of the religion (to the deep offence of many) and has grown in range and vigour. And a damn good thing.
The idea of an ‘open season’ on christianity as active persecution, forced conversions, abductions, murders, church burnings and discriminatory blasphemy laws is not exactly unknown in the East. OK, not cartoons, so I guess they shouldn’t complain.
One racism cannot be a foil to justify another. Unless you’re a pathalogical racist that is.
Islam is not a race. It is an ideology, and a very bad one, and is, in the West, freely chose. So it’s absolutely fair game.
open season on Islam can become open season on Muslims
Muslims choose to be Muslims, so I don’t have any sympathy. Those Muslims who do not really practise their “religion” shouldn’t have anything to worry about. But those that engage in jihad, wife beating and all the other nasties that are perfectly legitimate in Islam should face the consequences, and the link between Islam the ideology and this behaviour should be a normal topic for discussion.
Don, I’m not suggesting any form of violence whatsoever, eg burning mosques, attacking Muslims etc. I’m talking about freely attacking the ideology, whether it’s through serious criticism, plays, satire or cartoons.
Islam is not a race. It is an ideology, and a very bad one, and is, in the West, freely chose.
OP your reasoning is all over the place.
You don’t take pot-shots at Christianity because you believe that the people have moved away from a lot of whats said in the New Testament, even though in terms of hell-fire and homophobia and treatment of women it can be construed just as bad.
But its open season on Muslims because some Muslims still practice that bigotry.
But you don’t apply the same reasoning to Christians. That is also an ideology right, and people choose to follow it or not. So I’m assuming you have no sympathy for any christian either – whether they’re liberal or orthodox? (because you certainly seem to be incapable of making that distinction for Muslims).
Secondly, as someone pointed out on another thread. Your knowledge of Islam is at best patchy, and read up from a few biased websites. At worst its a uninformed interpretation.
Which is rather like those fanatics. They take one line out of the Qu’ran, interpret it literally and without context. Then they go on a killing spree. You take the same line out without knowing what its about, and use it to villify a whole community. So you’re as stupid as them.
Islam is not a race. It is an ideology, and a very bad one, and is, in the West, freely chose. So its absolutely fair game.
Piffle. Daniel Pipes (PBUH) uses this pretext all the time so its not surprising that his followers do as well.
Interning American-Japanese people in USA in WW2 was also not racist, because ‘Japanese’ is “not a race”? Yeah right.
Islam is freely chosen. So is Christianity. So are Communism and Fascism. So is liberal democracy.
Liberal democracies and Christianity are good ideologies, which have brought benefits to the world. Islam, Communism and Fascism are evil ideologies that have brought nothing but death and destruction.
Interning American-Japanese people in USA in WW2 was also not racist, because ‘Japanese’ is “not a race”? Yeah right.
The Japanese are a race. Interning them in a time of war was an unpleasant but necessary measure.
take one line out of the Qu’ran, interpret it literally and without context..
Out of context, eh? I wonder what sort of context commands to slay the unbelievers, beat “disobedient” wives, kill apostates etc would be acceptable. I wonder what sort of figurative, metaphorical interpretation could be applied to it.
The Japanese are a race if you consider British is a race. And you probably do.
Expose a bigot and you get to see a shrill, squawking egotist with personality problems.
Actually, the British aren’t a race. I know the term is vague, but the Japanese are far more homogeneous racially than the British.
Britain interned enemy aliens too. In time of war it’s common practice.
a shrill, squawking egotist with personality problems.
Luv u.
XXX
but the Japanese are far more homogeneous racially than the British.
And guess who the homogeneous racial group of second and third generation of Japanese were interned in WW2?
second and third generation of Japanese Americans I should say there.
“Bigots rip my flesh” – Frank Zappa
Old Pickler
Is there a situation in which you would support the internment of Muslims in the UK?
Here is the best website on the Japanese Internment in World War 2
http://www.densho.org/
Interstingly, whilst Old Pickler believes it was neccessary,
In 1983, however, a U.S. congressional commission uncovered evidence from the 1940s proving that there had been no military necessity for the unequal, unjust treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII. The commission reported that the causes of the incarceration were rooted in ” … race prejudice, war hysteria and a failure of political leadership
++++
The doctrine of collective guilt and collective punishment is the first route to indiscriminate and collective violence. Interestingly, in her opinion on the righteousness of internment of Japanese Americans and presumably in her ascriptions of collective guilt on Muslims, she echoes the exhortations of Muslim fascists, who implore collective guilt on Jews, Americans, Britain – and collective punishment (bombings) for that collective guilt.
Of course, she also shares this with extreme right wing racists, the BNP and others, who also believe in collective guilt, collective culpability, and collective punishment.
Still waiting for OldP to answer your question [113], Jay.
Is OP a racist bigot with BNP-style sensibilities? Foregone conclusion. Are we obliged to let off dysfunctional weirdos for having these views? I tend to think so. I’m not forgiving her views, more like, girl can’t help it.
Liberal democracies and Christianity are good ideologies, which have brought benefits to the world.
Selective amnesia helps you keep sane eh OP? It really depends who you ask that question…
Old Pickler
Liberal Democracies and the principles they are founded on arose in the struggle between Christianity and the Enlightenment
Christianity also produced inquisition and horrors wherever Europe took it as an adjunct of colonialism.
But I don’t want to quibble with you over that, first of all, Old Pickler, I’d like to know if you would ever support the internment of Muslims in the UK?
Is there a situation in which you would support the internment of Muslims in the UK?
No.
I would support a halt, if only temporary to all Muslim immigration, since it is clear that there are problems itegrating home grown Muslims. I’d also support open season criticism of Islam, as has been allowed for Christianity for a long time. And absolutely no caving in whatsoever when it comes to free speech.
European colonialism was not just evil. It brought the rule of law and a bit of culture to backward countries.
Islamic colonialism and imperialism did no good at all.
Daniel Pipes-Lite or the full blown thing?
Islamic colonialism and imperialism did no good at all.
Apart from bank-rolling the Industrial Revolution and Regency architecture.
Old Pickler
You will agree though that the benefits of European colonialism in places like the Congo, both with King Leopolds adventures, and the Atlantic slave trade, are open to criticism and debate? European imperialism sucked the blood and marrow out of the bones of many places.
I think Islamic imperialism is as much bollocks as anything, but Old Pickler’s White Mans Burden arse scratching is really heinous on this Friday early evening.
OP,
#101 wasn’t aimed at you, but at the implication in #97 that christianity was unpersecuted in ‘the East’.
Sid, sometimes I get the impression that ‘Foregone conclusion’ is some sort of personal motto. Islam is both a religion and an ideology, which is a major problem in establishing the parameters of a debate. Criticize it as an ideology and you offend those who see it in purely religious terms, give it the courtesy of ‘You shouldn’t have a go at someone’s religion’ and the militant ideology advances. And that ideology does contain aspect which are inimical to democracy and Enlightenment values (feel free to sneer at ‘Enlightenment’).
There are those, like Griffin, who use the ideological aspects as a mask for their old-fashioned racism. My impression of Pipes, (and I’m open to correction) is that he is an ideological opponent of Islam, less on moral/philosophical grounds than on the grounds that it represents a potential rival to his prefered ideology of the New American Century, and he is content to make coded appeals to racism if it suits his purpose.
Now, if forced to choose, I’d consider the American ideology the lesser of two evils by a longish way, but the creepy thing about Pipes is that he seems to be laying the groundwork for a (not too distant) future persecution. Pragmatically, and I fucking hate pragmatists.
However, as Jay said, there is ‘a point in which legitimate criticism of Islamism ends and active persecution of human beings begins.’ I don’t think OP has crossed that line, and if you think she has then a little more than ‘racist bigot with BNP-style sensibilities? Foregone conclusion.’ is required.
On the matter of internment, the treatment of Japanese Americans during WWII is, I believe, acknowledged as a shameful episode in American history. When people feel threatened they tend to behave badly, unless there is a strong voice of reason and principle within the community. Which I sort of assumed is one of the reasons Sunny set up this blog the way it is.
Sunny, I suspect that the reason OP does not take pot shots at Christianity is because she is a christian. Personally, I find taking pot shots at Christianity to be a relaxing hobby which requires only minimal effort. But then, Christianity is the dominant religion in my neck of the woods and attacking it has a long and honourable tradition.
The more a religion moves into the public arena and away from personal spiritual practice, the more it must be subject to scrutiny, challenge and debate, even accrimonious debate. Imputing bad faith to everyone who disagrees with you is a dead end.
The Arab slave trade was just as bad as the British and would still be going on if British naval power hadn’t stamped it out. On the plus side, though, there’s all those Muslim inventions….
Old Pickler
I have no brief for Arab imperialism so why you bring it up with me I don’t know – get out of that mode.
So, are you mature enough to accept that criticism of blood sucking, slave trading, native decimating European colonialism is not an ascension to Islamist civilisation crotch-grabbing? Or is that too stressful for you?
The latter has produced a great deal of good, as well as harm. The former has not. So yes.
Old Pickler
Do you define harm in terms of people killed, slaves traded, wealth stolen, land grabbed, souls oppressed, continents cleared? How do you personally define that?
Do you define harm in terms of people killed, slaves traded, wealth stolen, land grabbed, souls oppressed, continents cleared?
Yes, and Arab/Muslim imperialism did, and still does, all that, without the attendant benefits of rule of law, art, music, science, women’s equality and civil society, that the West, albeit gradually, introduced.
Old Pickler
Can you explain to me why you have to compare everything to Arab Imperialism when you address me? I am not Arab or Muslim, so what’s up?
Don
Nice post. I’m always more than willing to argue against Islam with anyone who defends it unconditionally. Its also easier and more productive discussing it with those who are willing to give it more considered time and effort and thought than the OP line, which is:
Islam bad, Christianity good.
That entrenched and intractable view with no regard to consideration of a different point of view is a type of racism and I’ve seen it in too many places over the last 10 years or so not to think otherwise. I haven’t laid my eyes on the generic OP viewset for the first time in my life on the pages of Pickled Politics.
Hari Kunzru wrote about an exchaneg he had with a journalist in Denmark in this post here on PP. I can sympathise with his position when finding himself defending the hijab in a way wholly opposed to his nominal views on the subject, because he was brought face to face with a hostile and antagonistic judgement of the matter which went deeper than just hatred of the hijab:
While she was, on the surface, expressing an opinion common among many liberal feminists around the world, the kind of opinion one hears often in the UK , the way she spoke startled me, because it seemed to indicate a deep, visceral level of threat. Im not a muslim and Im no proponent of the veil (for some of the same reasons as its feminist critics) but I ended up arguing strongly against her, trying to explain that her image of the position of muslim women was little better than a caricature, a cartoon.
Thats pretty much where I find myself whenever I’m exchanging views with OP here on PP, which I know will amount to a waste of time and go against everything that Sunny’s ideas for Pickled Politics were for.
Next time, please just tell me to ignore her. It’ll probably do everyone and this blog more good.
Sid
Old Pickler, of the pickled and porcine and vulgar mind, is only interested in goading you, so it is best to stay out of her way.
you’re right.
fuck it, i’m off to get sozzled on the sauce with friends.
goodnight PP.
My impression of Pipes, (and I’m open to correction) is that he is an ideological opponent of Islam, less on moral/philosophical grounds than on the grounds that it represents a potential rival to his prefered ideology of the New American Century, and he is content to make coded appeals to racism if it suits his purpose.
You’re right about the politics, but I’ve yet to see evidence of his racism. You may think he’s wrong to say that he wants hindu and hispanic immigration rather than Muslim, but I can’t see that it is racist.
The opponent of the hijab is fully entitled to villify this oppressive garment any way she wants. I presume Hari whatever is a man so he wouldn’t ever have to wear a sack if he had the misfortune to be born in a Muslim country. He should therefore “piss the fuck off” as SeanT would say.
Old Pickler, of the pickled and porcine and vulgar mind
Silver-tongued lounge lizard.
Everyone here ignores Bikhair; why not just leave OP mumbling to herself? Honestly, are any of her simplistic ideas really worth engaging with? Do you ever see her move on from her rather autistic rant?
He should therefore “piss the fuck off” as SeanT would say
Hey Old Pickler you know what’s really funny? seanT (bless him!) was giving it large about the ‘Asians’ coming to dirty his country on this blog until…Hari Kunzru appeared on the scene, one of them ‘orrible Asians, after which the Lion of St George went into docile sycophantic fawning mode and became very polite faced with a successful writer…hehehe….it was too funny.
Piss the fuck off indeed.
Why should she not offer her views? She is entitled. It is after all light of debate which will expose her.
I have to face the fact that there are fascists who will use whatever means to villify those they hate and for them Islam and muslims are it. Worse they are encroaching mainstream.
I have been to Harry’s place and seen more than a boy should: Old Pickler shares with us what is pretty much part of the package Harry’s bought into.
By the way Don, nice post.
As far as Christianity in the west is concerned – it is or has been eating itself. Christianity in the east I understand is vibrant and likely to become pre-eminent.
And why? Because of the unique history of Christianity in the West – and the economic imperative.
As for burning of a house of worship of any religion – its forbidden and has to be a major moral crime. The concept of sanctuary and refuge comes from this.
And we will all, and I mean ALL come to regret this concept disappearing. With each violent act against a church, mosque, temple, synagogue that day of reckoning beckons. Whether by an individual, as a grouping, or state police or military.
Personally we are too gentle with the fascists who happily link arms with those intellectually liberated Fox News media stars. The writing is on the wall and those fabled intellectuals spend every waking moment smashing down the wall.
With each violent act against a church, mosque, temple, synagogue that day of reckoning beckons.
See my post above. I’ve explicitly condemned acts of violence against Muslims and mosques. Of course the same goes for churches, synagogues etc.
We’re talking about criticism and debate, and, yes, attack – verbal attacks and legal due process. Can’t you see the difference?
“See my post above. I’ve explicitly condemned acts of violence against Muslims and mosques….”‘
For now!
For ever.
The atmospherics of collective guilt ——–> collective punishment.
Today on Harry’s Place one poster said it was time we did a Dresden on Bradford (its where all the Muslims live, you see, carpet bomb the bastards)
A few people protested, lots of others probably inwardly smiled.
Unlikely.
“For ever.”
&
“Unlikely.”
How can you be so sure?
Look in the mirror!
Fool.
Old Pickler – that was unnecessary.
My question to you is very relevant.
How do you know that you will never join the pack? Propensity is clearly there.
Pipes certainly have a point in putting todays extremism in Islams historic context.
The islamist ideology wanting to impose Sharia universally is something to be afraid of in my oponion.
Sharia law should not be embraced in the West.
It is a totalitarian look on mankind, which in essence can be linked to outher totalitarian ideologies, like Nazism, Fascism, Communism etc. There are a lot of similarities between political islamism and e.g. communism or nazism.
But Pipes and Flemming Rose (who himself has studied Russian history), has seen the patterns of similarity. He is married to a Russian woman.
Unlikely to be completely Xenophobic then isnt he ?.
I agree with Pipes when he claims that significant streams in middleeastern Culture and Religion have been overlooked for decades in the West.
Now and then a reality-check is needed, like the one given by the cartoons of Muhammad, who surely have opened a few peoples eyes about what to fear in the future. Certainly in Denmark it has. I am not sure it has in UK, esp. when you see the handling of the demo in London, and the political quietness from the so-called establishment. Denial ? maybe…
As for Jyllands Postens “flirt” with fascism in the 1920s it seems to be forgotten, that Jyllands Posten during WWII actually led a campaign against Nazism. Among other things they published pieces of Kaj Munk, a priest, highly critical of Nazism. This led to the killing of him by German Nazis.
And peoples who claim that Jylland Posten is a fascist newspaper, or radical newspaper, are certainly not regular subscribers. Jyllands Posten have raisen issues with regards to the predominantly Muslim immigration in Denmark, leading to a central-right government in Denmark. This must be seen in a danish context where massimmigration since the 80s have led to a big pressure on the welfare system here. Naturally such affects on a countrys economy and culture can not be left unchallanged. It is generally acknowledged in Denmark, that a succesfull integration of foreigners (whichever religion, race etc), can only be made if there is a degree of assimilation to and acceptance of basic western/danish values.
Pete
Refresh – you’re talking nonsense. I’ve never shown any tendencies to want to bomb Muslims except with criticism and ridicule, as Chrisitiantity has had to put up with for ages.
That is your view and I sincerely hope you can stick to it – but watch out for the day, as it surely will come creeping up on you.
You need long spoons at this banquet ….
Muslims choose to be Muslims, so I don’t have any sympathy. Those Muslims who do not really practise their “religion” shouldn’t have anything to worry about.
I can’t see it myself. All you do is polarise society still further. If you had any power Old Pickler we would, before long, have to call you Old Himmler. Your reasoning via Pipes has dire consequences if taken to its logical conclusion.
Your ignorance of history is also astounding. Christianity good? Depends. The church and the Labour Party have a long long association. The Fabian Society, Rowntree, Quakers — all these were instrumental in the drive for worker rights and the welfare state.
But some members of the cloth in the Victorian era were just as happy to dump poor people in workhouses.
Then there is Christianity in the USA, the kind that gives foreign policy an aggressive evangelical edge, the kind that ignores the central teachings of Jesus and justifies a similar death penalty count to Iran’s, the kind that for years justified enslavement and apartheid in the south.
Then there is Spain’s and Portugal’s evengelical conquest of South America, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. Read Bartolome de las Casas for a brutal witness account.
As for the idea that Islamic imperialism did no good at all. Does it really take a Spaniard to point out that al-Andalus and people like Averroesprovided an essential link between Greece/Rome and the Rennaisance just as Danish hooligans were going on destructive beanos in England?
Yeah, I’ve seen enough to reckon you are racist bigot.
At the same time, Don’s observation that it is open season on Christianity in the East — well it clearly is in some cases. Chuch burnings in Pakistan, persecution in Syria, masacres in the Spice Islands, etc.
But Don, you fucking hate pragmatists? In that case, you hate me. Maybe you would like to flesh this out because in isolation it sounds idiotic.
I believe strongly in compromise — except for a few core values — and can’t stand had-it-easy ultra liberals who seek to preach to the rest of us about what is right and wrong. I also have little time for pig-headed people who delude themselves into thinking that their beliefs are not affected by arbitrary conditioning.
I have come to the conclusion that this cartoon bollox cannot be understoood as simply a battle of ideas but needs to be overlaid with an appreciation of underlying issues of race.
When I have time I will try to write something that touches on this and addresses the pot shots aimed at me by Chris Stiles in a previous thread.
But some members of the cloth in the Victorian era were just as happy to dump poor people in workhouses.
Yes, unlike the enlightened mullahs. There are bad people all over the place; my point is that Islam itself is bad because Mohammed was evil.
there is Christianity in the USA, the kind that gives foreign policy an aggressive evangelical edge, the kind that ignores the central teachings of Jesus …
Quite. Now the teachings of Mohammed would justify all kinds of imperialism without any of the benefits of the West.
Averroes was practically an apostate. He only did anything worthwhile in spite of Islam not because of it. In any case, what have Muslims discovered since? Nothing.
Peter
Simple disappointing rationalisation on your part. With some truth in the causes of what has become Denmark of today. Without saying it you allude to rising racism which in turn has delivered a ‘centra-right’ government which (although not mentioned) is supported by a far-right party.
Also not mentioned, the newspaper in question has political links which are not covered well enough.
Its not news for continental Europe. Dear old Pym trod this path. And having proven its appeal – others follow and will follow. Here in the UK, Nick Griffin of the BNP switched is racist campaign to home in on muslims. It got him over many hurdles esp. legal ones.
Tying in with Daniel Pipes’ greater ambitions (especially with support of the most powerful forces on the planet), makes it all a whole lot easier. All the same cloth.
In the end claims to supremacy of race or culture invariably leads us to where we are today.
Racial supremacy is wrong. But cultural? Some cultures are just better than others. At the moment, the West is streets ahead of the rest.
El Cid,
Hyberbole, mate. By pragmatist I was referring to political rather than philosophical pragmatism, the type that Nixon/Kissinger brought to the fore in the 60’s and 70’s. The idea that principled action based on moral premises was an anachronism and the only benchmark of a policy was ‘what works’. Not taking practical action, but rather doing whatever it takes, regardless of principle or a moral framework, to alleviate the effects of the problem you have created.
The consequence of pragmatism as a driving political theory is that being ‘pragmatic’ i.e. following morally doubtful or outright unethical courses often for short term policy ends, became evidence of one’s sophistication. Hence Pipes who, while perhaps not a racist himself, sees no problem with sowing the seeds for a future racist regime if it serves his purpose.
This is distinct from a politician who, for practical reasons, compromises his or her principles. The political pragmatist rejects the validity of principles from the outset.
For me political pragmatism can be summed up in one soundbite;
“I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people.” Henry Kissinger on Chile, June 1970.
Wrong again – I am sorry you may have the prejudices but don’t have the history to support your argument.
Economic supremacy yes – real cultural progress is through cross fertilisation and assimilation – something all advanced economies go through.
The period we are now entering is us all heading backwards at a speed of knots. In preparation for what?
Yes there is a threat and that threat is economic – it was ever thus.
The period we are now entering is us all heading backwards at a speed of knots.
Nonsense. Technological progress has never been more rapid. And where are the ideas coming from? The West, obviously.
All cultures other than Western ones treat women like crap. That may have something to do with it.
All races are equal. But cultures are not.
Old Pickler
El Cid has you bang to rights
All cultures other than Western ones treat women like crap”
hahahaha whatta joke!
Hijaab
Amidst the hustle and bustle of a teeming metropolis, a solitary figure traverses. She moves steadily in her black garment which shields her against the tyranny of this life. Whilst others around her rush frantically, she move with tranquillity and ease. The peace which she achieves beneath this veil of hers, is immense. It is a liberation beyond measure. Is this a princess of royal blood? No. Is she a head of state? No. So who is this woman of serenity? This is a woman of Hijaab. A woman amongst many women. A Muslim Woman.
The site of a woman covering from top to bottom, is not so rare anymore in the major cities of the West. For many Westerners it represents the oppression which Islam imposes upon women. For Muslims however, it is the realisation that Islam will eventually reach every corner of this planet. This is not surprising, considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion on Earth. What is surprising, for Westerners, is that 7 out of 10 (70%) people who become Muslim are Women! It is these same women who then go on to willingly observe the Hijab without coercion or force. The women of Hijaab in the cities of London, Paris, New York etc, are not all immigrants who have just stepped off the boat, as many people think. Rather, many of them tend to be women of high intellect and education. Women who have experienced the bitterness of western oppression. Women of diverse nationalities and races, who are brought together as one, under the banner of Islam.
The Most Beautiful Girl
No, she’s not Diana Hayden nor is she Sushmita Sen,
Not even Aishwarya Rai, Who is this girl then?
No, she does not flash her legs nor walk down the aisle semi-nude
For her such things are unthinkable, sacrilegious and downright rude
Miss World, Miss Universe, Miss “Anything”, She does not aspire to be
She shuns all kinds of publicity in privacy she would rather be
Never in a swimming costume will she for a camera pose
Yes, she’s the ‘girl in hijaab’ more beautiful than a rose!
Those who’re ’stripped’ of modesty will ’strip’ for any cause
Whether on a lonely beach or in front of a full house
In their naked greed they dance In pursuit of earth’s glory
Is there a thing more vulgar than a woman devoid of modesty?
In the name of freedom all moral values are now defined
Vulgarity, nudism, nakedness are steps to fame that wind
Those who are of rotten minds call it freedom of “female” species
Yet, they exploit them a-plenty, whenever and wherever they please.
But for their terrible transgressions maybe they are not fully to
blame, The Muslims forgot their duty and let them live in shame
Incumbent upon the Muslims it was to promote good and stop all vice
If they had done their duty such situations wouldn’t arise
Back to our girl in hijaab much loved in Allah’s sight
She is darling of all the angels Heaven beckons to her, by right
She’s a simple Muslim Girl Yet more beautiful than a full moon
The brightness of her face is all “Noor” can there be a greater boon?
Modesty is her birth right without it, she’d feel lost
“Shamelessness” is a Devil’s tool that she avoids at any cost
No, she does not commit sinful acts nor to base desires give vent
In studies, salah, zikr and tilawat much of her time is spent
In obedience of Allah’s commands she does all the things wise
And the riches that she scorns befits a “Princess of Paradise”
Our beloved Prophet (PBUH) said modesty is a part of faith
For those who follow not we solemnly lay a wreath
No, she’s not Diana Hayden nor she is Sushmita Sen
Nothing on earth would entice her Rupees, Dollars or Yen!
not to offend the non muslim females.
Respect 2 all.
Women who have experienced the bitterness of western oppression…
Well in that case why are they still in London, Paris, New York etc, where they’re getting oppressed? Why don’t these women in black ghost outfits decamp to a Muslim country like Iran where women aren’t oppressed at all?
@ Refresh:
“Without saying it you allude to rising racism which in turn has delivered a ‘centra-right’ government which (although not mentioned) is supported by a far-right party.”
In a democracy all votes are all worth the same – or not ?. For many years the danish governments have had support from the far left. Hardly ever been part of government though. Neither is the far-right now.
Or maybe you are of the opinion that the 12,5 % who vote for a “far-right-party” shouldnt be counted, when legislation is passed ?.
Besides: it is questionable whether DF (DPP) is a far right party like BNP. It gained most of its votes from the social-democratic party which traditionally has been a centre-left-party. In many aspect DPP actually vote like a centre party, or far left when it comes to EU-issues. They are more like your tories…
Denmark is not a racist society. If you knew your stats you would know, that Denmark is one of UNs 3 biggest contributors, and have been so for decades.
Denmark have helped out in alot of conflicts all over the world, among others the roadmap to peace in middle East comes out of a danish initiative.
People living in Denmark (including muslems) get better welfare than almost anywhere else in the worlds fx. free education, free medical care etc. etc.
But naturally there is a limit to the amount of iliterate and un-educated foreigners a society like Denmark can absorb. If you knew the history of recent immigration to Denmark, you would know that this group by far outnumber the immigrants with educations and skills usefull for the society . Think about it: If you were a doctor or lawyer would you settle in Denmark to pay 68% tax out of a smaller income or rather go to UK or US and pay much less out of higher incomes ?.
Therefore the government, supported by DPP, have tightened immigration rules, in order to :
I. prevent the growing problems with arranged/forced marriages, especially in the Pakistani, Turkish and Somail-communities, which are the biggest groups in Denmark.
II. assure that the immigrants presently in Denmark get educations and jobs in order to support themselves and their families
III. enforce a better integration-programme, with danish-classes and gained knowledge of dansh society, to enable them to understand the society they choose to settle in
In UK there doesnt seem to be a problem, since everyone are left to their own devices.
The average muslim from a third world country would be better off where..?
“Also not mentioned, the newspaper in question has political links which are not covered well enough.”
Jyllands Posten is Denmarks biggest newspaper. Its readers come from a big section of the population, including governing parties as well as opposition. To assume that the paper is in the pockets of DPP is far fetched. The editoral line, however, is government friendly.
In may 2005 the Jyllands Postens journalist Ole Borg won the EU award for “Diversity, and against discrimination” among contributions from 250 journalist from 25 countries. For the series of articles “the contributors” about emmigrants and descendants who contribute to the society and the work-market in Denmark….
Does that sound BNP to you ?
Pete
Don, do you mean realpolitik?
Bismark, Machievelli, Sun Tzu, von Clauswitz, et al?
Perhaps pragmatist is the wrong word.
Articles can be read here..
http://journalistaward.stop-discrimination.info/fileadmin/pdfs/Europ_ische_Inhalte/Journalist_Award/DA_artikel__bers..pdf
Pete
El Cid,
Those guys. Currently Kaplan and others. You take my point; in day to day terms I would suggest that Realpoitik and political pragmatism is a distinction without a difference.
Peter, I am grateful to you for the link and information – I will read later if I may. However the issue was more to do with what the paper attempted and what lay behind it.
See this from Jonathan Steele -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1707526,00.html
We are all familiar with cynical politicians who use and abuse their peoples for power. Anti-immigration policies based on race I suspect would be seen as anti-european, however based on religion is the get -out clause.
This is the rationalisation central to advances of the right wing across continental europe. Watch Sarkozy manoeuvre in France. Another advanced society.
Historically and almost universally, from immigrants to America, UK and Europe generally – whether as economic migrants or refugees – are a spur to the economy. If that is not the case in Denmark, then let me know. I would be astonished if your foreign-born community is such a burden on the welfare state. Net contributors I would wager. This is the old argument the predecessors to the BNP harnessed.
Given the demographics of Europe I anticipate demands of the economy will be such that once again immigration will again be needed. That debate is under way in the UK. One downside of this is that it leaves the economies they leave are left a little impoverished. Separate issue – maybe another thread.
Old Pickler, I think you are just about done!
@ Refresh:
I agree with the morale of the article you posted, but in parts it is very one-sided.
Let me give an example:
“Even the Saudis only reacted after Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Danish prime minister, refused to receive a protest delegation of Danish Islamic leaders and ambassadors from Muslim countries. The Danish government’s insensitivity and rudeness were almost as offensive as the cartoons”.
Here they dont get the facts str8.
11 muslem ambassadors to Denmark initially sent a letter to the primeminister asking for a meeting in which they wanted “a discussion as to what legal action he was going to take against Jyllands Postens drawings, and comparing the steps by Jyllands Posten to the steps of terrorists”.
First of all a request like this is an unheard of attempt to influence national danish matters. This is not following the rule-book of normal diplomacy.
Secondly it must have been fully clear to the 11 embassadors to Denmark, that the prime-minister of Denmark in no way whatsoever could hold a meeting with them with such an agenda. Embassadors to Denmark must be expected to (I would say even as a minimum) be fully aware of how the government is seperated from the free press, and how such a request cannot be met. They also must be expected to be fully aware of the seperation between legislative, judicial, and executing power. ( I dont know the correct words in english but i am sure U catch my drift here… ).
Thirdly the primeminister responded to the request in 100% by the book diplomatic manner:
In a very polite letter he made it clear that such a meeting under no circumstances could be held with that agenda. He used the opportunity to inform them the basics of our system just to make sure no misunderstanding or misinformation went around.
Fourthly his foreign Minister Per Stig Møller as a matter of fact did have an inforal meeting with the 11 embassadors in which he clarified Denmarks stand on the issue, namely that a primeminister in no way whatsoever can interfere with the free press in this country.
…
There are other parts of the article that i have my doubts about/disagree with:
“Bush’s reaction shows that Americans have a better understanding of multiculturalism than most Europeans.”
If this is to be understood correctly minorities in American of different races are better off living there than in Europe ?. Maybe try to ask som Mexican-sweat-shop workers about this, some of the 90% black people on death rows, or maybe even the very very few congressmen with another etnicity than caucasian?. They might have a slightly different opinion about it.
“In Britain we are further back. If there is a tolerance spectrum, with resistance to diversity at one end, acceptance of it in the middle and celebration of it at the other end, Britain lies somewhere near the middle.”
Maybe a few of the illegal immigrants living under inhumane conditions in Englands biggest cities as slaves to prostitution or arranged marriages, or in camps along the french border would disagree here?.
I dont think those groups have any kind of political voice at all.
“In an excellent piece in Der Spiegel, Jytte Klausen, a Danish political scientist who has interviewed more than 300 Muslim leaders in western Europe over the past five years, says “religious tolerance and respect for human rights have been sorely lacking in Denmark”.”
A totally ungrounded statement.
I hope you read my prior link and posting.
Pete
“If that is not the case in Denmark, then let me know. I would be astonished if your foreign-born community is such a burden on the welfare state. Net contributors I would wager.”
Be astonished and wager differently !
I take it that your comments are due to lack of knowledge about the danish welfare state ?.
The future outlook though i do agree with you about. That is, if the net-influx will be of people with the educations/skills needed for a modern societys economy.
Pete
Call me a stickler Don but its more than just semantics. It’s realpolitik.
Politics is the art of the possible. There is nothing wrong with being pragmatic. That’s just life.
Anyway, it’s nothing to fallout over.
shut up Zenab
Peter,
I have my own problems with how America has and does treat its non-whites – most of those views I share with you.
Similarly for the UK, with Nick Griffin of the BNP getting acquited on incitement to racial hatred by him wrapping himself in the cloak of freedom of speech, is worrying and it requires a serious political response at all levels, and from across all sections of society. That is how they and their predecessors were kept in check – long enough to implode.
I have visited Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Holland and really had not expected such controversy to be fuelled from there. And did I say I really like the countries and the people. But what has been changing? Its a good while since I last went (10 years).
Finally, I’d be interested to know what prompted Denark to send troops over to Iraq and why its current Government and why the Danish Queen has been so vociferous about muslims.
“We have to show our opposition to Islam … We are being challenged by Islam these years… We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy…” the queen said in an official biography published on Thursday, April 14.
So is there / was there a concerted effort on part of the Government, the Queen and its allies in the media to harness the worst political elements – which may have led to this.
And in the end – does this (or has it already) lead the Danes to lose all their liberal instincts.
Peter
On the question of the 12% voting for the far-right, I would be very interested on their inclinations and also how the far-right party managed to persuade them.
We know about Haider, Pym, Le Pen and others and how they work. How does the far-right operate in Denmark?
And in the end – does this (or has it already) lead the Danes to lose all their liberal instincts
It’s trying to preserve its liberal traditions against something fundamentally illiberal – Islam.
@ Refresh:
You raise some important issue, with regards to understanding the situation.
About the Queens quote:
““We have to show our opposition to Islam … We are being challenged by Islam these years… We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy…” the queen said in an official biography published on Thursday, April 14. ”
That quote is in fact a mis-quote. You should check your sources for that. Opposition is not the word she used. The queen has a long history of preaching tolerance and openness towards other people and cultures. Actually all royals do. Frederick the coming King has shown a great involvement in immigrants issues. What the Queen adressed in her speach was the traditonel danish behaviour of “konflitkskyhed” meaning the “passive agressive behaviour”. She pleaded dialogue, and that danes nor immigrants should be scared of interaction, and telling each other how they feel about things openly. So in fact she was hussing the danes with that. At other times she has blamed danes for “dumb-smart remarks”
“But what has been changing?”
There has been a public debate about the challenges of globalization. At the same time, the tone in the debate has been very straightforward. For a number of years the silent minoroity have not had a say at all. This has let to the rise of DPP a party which in the immigration debate is on the right side. They have spoken for the (minority) of danes who see massive immigration as a threat rather than a possibility.
Due to the exessive immigration in the 80s and 90s Denmark saw problems never occuring before. Increase in harder violence, risen amount of immigrant women at womens crisis centres, pressure on social servies etc. etc. Ironically this development happend in a time where the danish economy was on a forward march. Surely the media also played a big role in adressing the problems. The prior taboos were silenced by this.
DPP found areas in which they could be in line with “average Joe”. Not only in immigration issues, but also with regards to the EU (DPP are very sceptic of this). When it comes to the elderly people, they also take their sides. Fx ensuring extra payments for the weaker elderly people. In a society in big change u can win alot of votes speaking to peoples fear about whats going to come and the “dangers” of mass-immigration.
DPP were in a way justified since for many years the “establishment” predominantely the academics had imposed taboos about speaking your mind. They were for long backed up by a traditional centre-left media. DPP have been very good at using emotive arguement, and their financial policies certainly are unrealistic. They have also has charismatic leaders and the ability to strictly control their party, thus excluding anyone who publicly made racist statements etc. knowing that they would lose votes on such things. The history of DPP goes back to the 80s when its early party virtually broke into pieces because of internal distress. This they have managed to avoid.
I reckon DPP will by time lose influence. Besides from the immigration policy which is tightened to the max given the current work-market conditions they will soon find themselves offering nothing else than other parties can.
Pete
With regards to the miss-quote of Margrethe, i suggest you get this article translated:
http://www.bt.dk/nyheder/artikel:aid=418960/
She said – with reference to the totalitarian side of Islam – that there are certain things u cant be tolerant of. But Telegraphs Berlin-correspondent misquoted her, saying that she said that we should show opposition to Islam.
Pete
Rename the Iranian danish
Buns of Infidel