Anjum has a great method of debating.
Just talk over everyone and then say “what what, im in a discussion, im discussing things” while you got Tariq sitting there pretty much giving up talking to him after 30 seconds.

Its so hard to deal with people like that; theres no reasoning there whatsoever.

I think he might be slightly unstable, but he knows what his actions are doing.

Freak

Re: “post with the link you’ve supplied on Sepia Mutiny”

Sorry, I mean that my post is on SM, but I’ve used the link you just supplied here.

This is exactly what I’ve been talking about in this thread. See what I mean ? (PS I’ve just submitted a post with the link you’ve supplied on Sepia Mutiny — I hope this is okay with you).

Kay,

My point too. On the other hand, some would say we should just let him (metaphorically) hang himself with his own rope.

The debate starts about six minutes into the programme.

Anjum Choudhry The Crazy Mofo

Interesting points you make about the extra degree of cultural sensitivity doctors have to bear in mind.

Okay, so in Anjem Choudhary’s case, nailing him purely due to his somewhat extreme (and highly dangerous) interpretation of his religion is potentially difficult. I understand that. However, although his religious beliefs may be the root cause of his problems, it’s the outward SYMPTOMS resulting from his beliefs that we are concerned with. He can believe whatever the hell he wants to — but when those ideas and ways of thinking wreak havoc on his sanity and cause him to be a danger to others (re: the unstable and emotionally erratic behaviour demonstrated on Newsnight earlier this week, especially with regards to his behaviour towards women) and, given his treasonous agenda, towards wider society as a whole (remember he views OBL as an “accurate” representation of jihad and Islam, so who’s to say he won’t incite similar tactics here in the UK ?), then perhaps there is indeed some action which can be taken from a medical perspective.

Let me clarify matters: You saw how he behaved on Newsnight. This is by no means the first time he has acted in this way in public. His behaviour was not an example of a mentally stable individual. As a medical professional, I’m sure you’ve picked up on this too (and as I mentioned above, I’ve already heard one professional opinion from a very senior doctor based on the televised evidence we’ve all seen to date, ie. Choudhary is definitely suffering from clinical behavioural disorders, although a more specific diagnosis would require more detailed research and assessment of his behaviour — obviously, this is something I doubt Choudhary would willingly submit to, hence the suggestion of an intervention by his GP, other doctors, and/or the use of the Mental Health Act).

Choudhary is basically like a spoilt child, who will keep on pushing the boundaries of what he can get away with, until someone pushes back sufficiently. He lacks the maturity, self-restraint, and self-discipline to be able to control himself, and his overtly bullying personality is self-evident. I’ve already mentioned his unashamedly intimidatory behaviour towards women, especially Muslim women; we’ve also seen how he cannot stop himself from ranting even if the presenter (eg. Jeremy Paxman, although he behaved in the same way towards Nina Hussein last week) repeatedly asks him to stop, or even if the cameras and microphone are taken off him completely (one can still hear him gibbering away in the background). It’s like watching some belligerent schoolboy arguing with his father — he uses the same childish teenage tactics — and refusing to either stop or amend his behaviour because the “counter-force” and subsequent consequences are not firm enough.

I agree with you that charges of treason may be a more viable course of action, but if he was an “Average Joe” behaving in this way, and was not a Muslim or being represented as such, then surely such an individual would indeed be a candidate for confinement and treatment on psychiatric grounds. The clinical evidence for his illness is already there, isn’t it ?

I’ll drop you a line anon.

Ta.

It’s an interesting premise Jai, but as Don says, we don’t want to go down that road. Interestingly we have to be very careful these days when it comes to beliefs like the ones you talk about, as we’re told be culturally-sensitive. I.e. what you and I might think crazy may be a cultural norm in some far off land. I think we’ve got more chance of getting him on treason charges.

It comes in light of figures which showed a massive skew towards black people being diagnosed as schizophrenic. Way more than other groups. Most then assumed it was because foolish doctors were misdiagnosing voodoo priestesses and witch doctors as mad – but this was proved to be entirely unfounded as first generation black immigrants had normal schizophrenia rates. It’s higher in 2nd and 3rd gen black people. So even though the cultural sensitivity was never a problem, the emphasis has remained and we have to pussy-foot around beliefs that could be put down to religion. We had a catholic patient who said some crazy ass shit too!

“I dont think there has to be a wedge to an extent that we cannot work and live together as colleagues and neighbours without the conflict.”

That is what I meant.

To your point, wouldnt you agree that emaan dirves a wedge between us and them? Obviously Muslims can lead perfectly normal lives in Darul Kufr but much of their society we would have to abstain from.

“the protests were orchestrated by the Saudis, most likely to deflect attention from the people who died during Hajj.”

I today read an article by Juan Cole that disputes this point and provides a detail account of the affair dating back to september.

“the deeper agenda seems obvious. The Middle Eastern countries and their imams want obedience and loyalty from their bretheren in Europe. They want to convince them that they are never going to be accepted and they are not part of those countries. They want to drive a wedge between the ‘infidels’ and their brothers”

While this is true, I am of the opinion that the “west” (i hate using this word in this way) does this also. With reference tothe cartoons issues alone, they were printed, considered acceptable, reprinted and supported by many. Islam was portrayed as a violent religion, and the anticipated response of Muslims has made it believable?

“The rest of us stuck in the middle are having a hard time just keeping up. “

lol.. I was thinking that too. And the idiot was on license.

I crossed paths with Anjem back in the early 90s as well. I was a contemporary of the time that Muslim students and “yoot” were going through a politicisation along with a search for identity. To find themselves and their role as 2nd and 3rd generation British Asians. They were the heady days of Londonistan.

I too went through some kind of psychic and spiritual crisis back then. But in my search for the ‘Islamic Way’, I met with many many false sheiks and charlatans. Amongst them, the Fundamentalists. The Salafis and the dreariest and stupidest of them all, the Hizbut Tahria, OBM and his arse lickers. I always found them too shouty, too sure of themselves and way too antagonistic for their own good. And no way did my interpretation of Islam have anything to do with some Post-Modernist fantasy of a Muslim State! They apalled me, reader, and I fled.

Yes, true. But a red mullet is a crucifiable offence.