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English viewpoint and inciting to kill


by Sunny on 3rd February, 2006 at 4:36 pm    

I wonder if the inbred idiots from Al-Ghurabaa will be arrested for inciting to kill others. Mediawatchwatch has more on this Sky News screengrab with a placard asking for people to be “massacred”. How charming.

Chest-beating fanatics aside, I agree with: Jack Straw’s condemnation of the European press, the British press on why they chose not to publish the Muhammed cartoons (specially the Dail Mail editorial (shoot me now!)), and even David Aaronovitch [via Clive Davis].



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127 Comments   |  


  1. BevanKieran — on 3rd February, 2006 at 4:57 pm  

    I wonder if the inbred idiots from Al-Ghurabaa will be arrested for inciting to kill others.

    Fucking hell yeah! It is about precedents, if they can get can get away with this then surely it will enable the far-right in U.K to commit the same offense with regards to minorities etc.

  2. Siddharth — on 3rd February, 2006 at 5:01 pm  

    In addition to the violence incited by the al-Ghurabaa fuckwits, over at Harry’s Place, the posts by HP bloggers and comments thread read like a heaving lynch mob baying for blood. Truly madly deeply amazing.

  3. raz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 5:16 pm  

    Haven’t members of Al-ghurabaa in its previous incarnation
    (al-mahajouron) been in trouble for this kind of thing before? Wasn’t there some Hasan Butt guy who got arrested?

  4. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 5:18 pm  

    Um, ist that the very demonstration the BBC advertised on it’s website today, tacked to the end of the Straw article? It has been removed now, but, I thought it was a bit strange that it pointed out that the demo starts after prayers.

    Didn’t look all too professional to me, and, given the general yearning for all-round restraint in the UK press, and really, it is a bit daft to help organise a muslimic demonstration when the Danish Embassy in Jakarta just has been stormed by extremists over the topic.

    The original URL was: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm
    no doubt there will be a record in the changelog to corroborate my claim.

  5. Steve M — on 3rd February, 2006 at 5:53 pm  

    In addition to the violence incited by the al-Ghurabaa fuckwits, over at Harry’s Place, the posts by HP bloggers and comments thread read like a heaving lynch mob baying for blood

    Which HP bloggers read like a heaving lynch mob baying for blood, Gene, Brownie, Marcus or David T?

  6. El Cid — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:00 pm  

    What of the American press?
    I ask, because I wonder whether the fact that the UK and USA have interfered far more forcefully in Middle Eastern affairs than other Western powers and have troops on the ground and have to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world as well as win the military battle (don’t jump on my choice of phrases, just go with the flow)… I wonder whether that has influenced the differences in response.

  7. Sunny — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:03 pm  

    Yeah some of the Ghurabaa twats were previously part of Al-Muhajiroun. Apparently most of them came from the mosque after friday prayers today. It wasn’t exactly organised with mass appeal, they’re all part of the same ilk. I would really like these fools to be arrested, even the BNP don’t go around asking people to be massacred or be-headed at least.

  8. Steve M — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:08 pm  

    Fox and CNN don’t appear to be publishing the cartoons. CNN says: “CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons out of respect for Islam.”.

    At first glance they seem to be backing Jack Straw’s position.

  9. Don — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:15 pm  

    Sid,

    What’s with the obsession with HP? I read your comment and looked at the last two articles and the comments. It didn’t strike me as a ‘ heaving lynch mob baying for blood’.
    A heaving lynch mob baying for blood tends to carry banners urging murder, massacre and decapitation.

  10. Geezer — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:16 pm  

    Many of the people above have been arrested by the cops under their old guise of “Al Muhajaroon”.

  11. Geezer — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:19 pm  

    Yeah some of the Ghurabaa twats were previously part of Al-Muhajiroun[sunny]

    Wrong Sunny the vast majority if not ALL of them are part of the old outfit. Who might I add are banned from every mosque in the UK and alienated in the community.

  12. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:23 pm  

    Those placards were shown repeatedly on BBC News 24 and Sky, rest assured they will be beamed around the world, there were other ones saying death to those who insult the Prophet, behead those who insult Islam, all that kind of stuff.

    Dickheads.

  13. mirax — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:43 pm  

    About HP, the islam threads ALWAYS bring out a real ugly crew and sooner or later the blog owners have to take some responsibility. I don’t necessarily mean banning, just a clear and constant refutation of racism, bigotry etc
    There’s also something of a bullying pack mentality, especially when a ’stopper’ stops by- the blog owners seem to encourage that for sure.

  14. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:50 pm  

    Mirax,

    I rather people are open about being racist, because then I know where they stand, and it gives us all an opportunity to engage them.

    If you don’t think someone is smart enough to get it, why waste time with them? There are so many people who are ready and open to develop and refine the ideas that we all are sharing/working on.

    Also, sometimes one is a little wrong in one’s thoughts (whoever isn’t?) and good discussion is made up of education and exchange.

  15. j0nz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:53 pm  

    These people won’t be arrested. The police and authorities live in a near politically correct induced terror paralysis. They wouldn’t hesisitate to arrest Nazi thugs with signs up asking to massacre Muslims.

    “I respect your wish to want to kill me”. What bollox. Sometimes I wish parts of London (Islington) was run under strict shar’ia law, Taliban-esque, just to piss off the bruschetta munching lot who are in bed with the terrorists brigade. Though they’d probably respect the right of the Taliban Islington council to oppress them…

  16. Don — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:56 pm  

    Mirax,

    Yeah, I had noticed the ganging up on ’stoppers’. I seldom comment there because once there are a dozen comments it tends to turn into the same crew throwing the same abuse (never happens here, of course).

    But I was refering to the two current threads. Sid tends to get very hyperbolic over HP.

  17. j0nz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:56 pm  

    Sid, What’s with the obsession with HP?

    Sid can be known to utter HP upto 10 times in a single thread without any provocation whatsover! He’s bit like Chantelle -oh-my-god x 41 times from BB.

    It didn’t strike me as a ‘ heaving lynch mob baying for blood’.

    He’s a bit of a drama queen our Sid.

  18. raz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 6:59 pm  

    There’s something very ‘odd’ about these al-gurububaa/mujaharoon types. They are constantly calling for violence, bombings and killings, yet they happily live here in the West, probably claiming benefits! If they are so eager for ‘jihad’ why have none of them signed up for the ‘real deal’ of Al-queda? It seems some of them lack the courage of their convictions! Interesting to note the contrast between these noisy but toothless attention seekers and the July 7th bombers, who were silent but deadly.

  19. j0nz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 7:10 pm  

    who live here in the West, probably claiming benefits

    In Omar Bakri’s videos he told the Mujhadeen audience to claim as many benefits as possible, disability allowance, and he joked ‘jihad benefit’…

  20. BevanKieran — on 3rd February, 2006 at 7:15 pm  

    Interesting to note the contrast between these noisy but toothless attention seekers and the July 7th bombers, who were silent but deadly.

    I was in and around the area of the protest. They were outnumbered by the press and police. Publicity seeking whores indeed. Terrorists like Omar Sheikh and Asif Mohammad probably fed of the literature of these guys whose works include “Homosexuality today, Paedophile tomorrow.” Despite the fact it was a protest outside the Danish Embassy, they had their priorities straight. It was “Die Die Israel” and “Death to America” etc, a pleasant accompaniment to the surroundings of Sloane Square.

  21. Proud Brit — on 3rd February, 2006 at 7:39 pm  

    Why don’t we all put in an online hate crime report to the metroplitan islamic police squad. I for one feel quite threatened by people walking down the streets of my country threatening to kill me. These Islamic thugs should be locked up or deported at once. Incidentally didn’t Mr Blair (clone 1 Tony) promise to deport any of these people carrying out these actions after 7/7. Another false ‘nu labour’ soundbite. Makes the BNP pair look quite tame, and they are still looking at 7 years political imprisonment

  22. Bikhair — on 3rd February, 2006 at 7:47 pm  

    jOnz,

    “In Omar Bakri’s videos he told the Mujhadeen audience to claim as many benefits as possible, disability allowance, and he joked ‘jihad benefit’…”

    You fancy yourself to be someone who has knowledge of things Islamic and I responded to this apparent curiosity on another topic on this blog. Here is some advice from one of the greatest scholars of Islam with regards to things people say.

    Imaam Maalik (d.179H) - rahimahullaah – said, “Indeed I am only a man. I am sometimes mistaken and at other times correct; so look into my opinions. All that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, then abandon it.”

    When Omar Bakris opinions agrees with the book and the Sunah the audience should accept it. It is a good thing he is addressing a crowd who knows their religion and can ignore him when it is appropriate. InshaAllah.

  23. Bikhair — on 3rd February, 2006 at 7:52 pm  

    Raz,

    “There’s something very ‘odd’ about these al-gurububaa/mujaharoon types. They are constantly calling for violence, bombings and killings, yet they happily live here in the West, probably claiming benefits! If they are so eager for ‘jihad’ why have none of them signed up for the ‘real deal’ of Al-queda?”

    First I should mention that there is no jihad. Secondly the Muslim ummah isnt short on hypocrites and they only increase as the hour (day of judgement) approaches. Throw them in jail, deport them, kill them, but get used to them.

    If you really want to annoy them ask them about hijrah. They are religiously obligated to be nice if you seek knowledge from them. Unfortunately for many religious obligations dont go past the throat.

  24. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:18 pm  

    Here is the opinion of a man called Tomahawk on the ‘Solidarty Forever’ post of Harry’s Place, 07:18pm post:

    Pickled Politics: the shrivelled vinegary gherkins of the blogosphere

    Translation: Uppity Pakis to be Pompously Patronised of the Blogosphere

  25. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:20 pm  

    Above the man called tomahawk a Muslim called Jazir writes:

    +++++

    Here is a clue. See those people with “kill the kafir” banners? They are the real enemy. Meanwhile, see all the thousands of other muslims who did not leave home on this very cold night in London? They are not the enemy.

    I’ll leave you for 30 minutes while you digest this.

    ++++

    Beautiful - but they all ignored him - too busy huffing and puffing and relaxing their sphincters.

  26. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:25 pm  

    It is amazing that hooting cockerels from HP can get vexed with Pickled Politics over their stance given the general tenor of the posts and comments here - which are all in broad agreement with freedom of speech but which cause snot-munchers like tomahawk to slander us because a few complexities are discussed in the mix - seems to cause brain short-circuit for some people.

  27. Jason Pappas — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:27 pm  

    There are times that one has to support people who test the liberties we hold dear even if we don’t desire to express ourselves in the same manner. This is such a time. We must establish safety for those who want to criticize any idea or ideology. It is cowardly for those editors that back away form the story or refuse to print the pictures that are part and parcel of the story.

    Printing or repeating what others say for sake of reference isn’t an endorsement of those ideas. How often do we see the media rebroadcast crazed terrorists and their hate-filled rants? These terrorists are offensive in every sense of the word. And I often question the constant transmission of terrorist propaganda. But I defend their right to do it and who be appalled at anyone who threatens a broadcaster for “being the messenger” of bad news.

  28. David T — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:40 pm  

    Yes, they are ex-Al Muhajies.

    My reactions to them are mixed.

    1. They are absurd self publicists who openly discredit themselves whenever they open their mouths.

    2. The first two british suicide bombers -who murdered families out for lunch in Mike’s Bar - were Al Muhaj members.

  29. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:44 pm  

    Jay,

    had I been a muslim, I’d have left my warm house and staged a counterdemonstration to defend my religion against those nutters- just to be counted and to stand up for the country that is my home.

    Alas, we all only see rabid crazy people claiming to be muslims, and no sensible people other than in a few scattered posts — what conclusion can we draw, other than

    Moderate muslims do not
    a) exist
    b) care
    c) dare to speak out

    The impression left with many people is that not all muslims are radicals, but very few muslims actually are against the radicals.

    Sorry, this is not a good enough effort to convince people that Islam is not a threat. The moderate muslims need to grow a spine and an attitude, and I hope they do.

    If they exist, that is.

  30. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:47 pm  

    Cinnamon

    The point made by Jazir stands though, doesnt it?

  31. Bikhair — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:01 pm  

    Cinnamon,

    I dont consider myself a moderate Muslim. People on Pickled Pipsqueks will attest to them. I dont think “moderate” Muslims exist as there can only rightly guided Muslims and those who arent rightly guided.

    “The impression left with many people is that not all muslims are radicals, but very few muslims actually are against the radicals.”

    If we werent against misguidance we would be those who were misguided. Now Muslims have options to counter evil, according to an authentic hadith. We can either stop it with our hands, with our mouths or hate it with our hearts. Now if Muslims choose the later it is said that that is the least of faith but faith nonetheless. (Is that one word) Anyway Muslims, arent in a position to stop it with their hands as this will create more fitna. It is the responsibility of those in authority to do the major lifting because from the perspective of the sharia, they have the authority and frankly the means to do so.

  32. David T — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:06 pm  

    Yes, but you’ll get locked up if you do.

  33. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:14 pm  

    Jay,

    in a way it does stand, but the silent majority is more dangerous here than the vocal minority.

    In Germany in the Nazitimes, many were part of exactly this minority too, and when they realised they had been had, it was too late.

    We cannot let the BNP’s of this world, (including the Islamic arm of the BNP, in form of Al-Ghurabaa ), to dictate the agenda for the rest of us.

    I hate to quote a classic, but:

    ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

    30 minutes anyone?

    ——
    Bihair,

    stop looking up to clerics like they are some kind of gods. Those dudes cook tea with water, just like you and I! Start taking some responsibility for your religion and your freedom, or you’ll find that the lenght of your beard will soon be more important than the size of your heart.

  34. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:19 pm  

    erm, duh, majority I mean of course. *blush*

    I recommend checking on Art Spiegelmann’s ‘Maus’ see here:

    http://www.geocities.com/athens/Atlantis/2671/

    and here:

    http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/impact/w95/HTML/cdrom/randy.cdrom.html

  35. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:24 pm  

    Right Cinnamon I agree with you - but we’ll get there by engaging with them rather than demonising Muslims as a whole, right? That is what Jazir says, and I believe that makes sense.

  36. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:35 pm  

    Yes Jay!

    But, if all people see is some crazy guys, you should not wonder that people think there is no moderate muslimic fraction and that people begin to think that all muslims are fascists or ‘mitlauefer’[1]

    And, it is not ->usthey

  37. Cinnamon — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:42 pm  

    meh, I hate losing comments like that, but I broke the webscript with my emoticons. Lets try this again…

    And it is not US who needs to be engaged(we already are, but somewhat lonely!), but THEY that need to stand up and be counted, of their own accord, without being prompted.

    Cinnamon

    [1] Mitlauefer means someone who is running alongside the pack, keeping up, but not leading. I cannot think of a good english term here.

  38. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:44 pm  

    Cinnamon

    Right - but it does not take an effort to realise that we should positively seek to engage with and help those moderate Muslims rather than succumb to ‘all Muslims are fascists lets nuke em all’ algebra, don’t you think? I mean, if we get to demonising all Muslims you know where we will end up, don’t you? I don’t like the Maus analogy because it is hyperbolic - and not an exact parallel to the points either of is trying to make - but you do know where we are heading if we just accept resignedly that all Muslims are fascists —> scum —> filth, right?

    Just a thought.

  39. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 9:46 pm  

    but THEY that need to stand up and be counted, of their own accord, without being prompted

    Jai made the point above that publishing these pictures may not have been the best way to go about securing the trust of moderate Muslims.

    I’m not sure I agree with that fully, but I can see where it comes from.

  40. Bikhair — on 3rd February, 2006 at 10:13 pm  

    Cinamon,

    “Bihair,

    stop looking up to clerics like they are some kind of gods. Those dudes cook tea with water, just like you and I! Start taking some responsibility for your religion and your freedom, or you’ll find that the lenght of your beard will soon be more important than the size of your heart.”

    How does one take responsibility for their religion? Are you stupid or are you trying to change the subject.

  41. Kulvinder — on 3rd February, 2006 at 10:28 pm  

    I’ve been pleasantly surprised, shocked even by the response of the British media and government. Particularly the print media.

    I’ve supported the intellectual justifications given for saying something controversial even when the vast majority of the print media have taken the opposing view to utterly absurd proportions, a notable example would be the Brass Eye paedophile episode, and the premise seemingly endorsed by editors that anyone who gazes upon a picture of a naked child is inherently a raping psychopath in need of not only a life sentence, but a public and quite abhorrent naming and shaming.

    Freedom of speech is at its most valuable when its used to say something. Its there to allow the expression of ideas and thoughts, not to troll for the sake of trolling. A means to an end, rather than a mediocre end in itself.

    As a sikh i supported the play ‘Behtzi’ because it showed some intellectual depth, its artistic merit was not in saying something controversial in a banal manner but trying to push the ideas of a community beyond its own comfort level. It had a message. It was not intented to outrage for the sake of having the ability to outrage. It held a deeper meaning. The cartoons on the other hand are crass, shallow and without any real benefit for muslims. They do not in themselves say anything of value, they do not impart any knowledge of worth or ideas of merit. In internet speak, they are the work of trolls. Their worth is even further degraded by not coming from the community itself.

    A British newspaper could publish the works Paki, Nigger or Poof as their headlines. The worth of those front pages would be almost equal to the worth of european newspapers seeking debasement of islam just for the hell of it. The Satanic verses offended far less and said far far more of merit than mere cartoons. Salman Rushdie provided something of value, he wrote from his community to his community. I support the publication of that book.

    An idea is worth fighting for, a bombastic screech is not.

    For what its worth, and assuming there are any british journalists reading. Kudos. I say that with all my heart as a Sikh, an Asian and a Briton. It is absurd for European newspapers to jump on an offensive bandwagon simply to advocate freedom of speech. It is an abandonment of the far more valuable freedom of thought that accompanies freedom of speech. Publishing Paki, Nigger and Poof on your front pages would be no victory. All this has done is crank up the extreme and hardline members of society, whether they be devout or secularists into even more incoherent and rambling loons. You have no duty to editors on the continent, think for yourselves and steer your own course.

  42. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:47 pm  

    Kulvinder

    Freedom of speech is at its most valuable when its used to say something. Its there to allow the expression of ideas and thoughts, not to troll for the sake of trolling. A means to an end, rather than a mediocre end in itself.

    Since when did Freedom of Speech have to have a value attached to it? And who attaches the value?

    My view of the Behzti play is the complete opposite to yours, I thought it was a pathetic coon show - but I still support its production because freedom of speech does not require justification or meaning.

    They do not in themselves say anything of value, they do not impart any knowledge of worth or ideas of merit.

    The true test comes when you are faced with things that you may believe do not have value - and many people have made good cases for the value of the exercise of publishing these cartoons.

    Freedom of Speech does not have to be subject to an All Bran test where as long as it does something good for your digestion it is alright - freedom of speech asks you questions most sincerely when you have to consider crass and and vulgar things as being valuable in themself - things you disagree with or despise.

  43. Francis Sedgemore — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:49 pm  

    I am a white refugee from Harry’s Place, where if I stay my sanity is in terrible danger. I wish therefore to claim political asylum. I promise not to claim benefits, and to return from whence I came as soon as normal service is resumed.

  44. j0nz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:52 pm  

    I feel like saying

    Diddums! I’m Asian! Please don’t offend me. Amazing how reformists revert to their racial context when mocking one’s religion. Ooh the evil!

    This comment will really piss of any Hindhu, Sikh or Muslim; no doubt. Get a grip. These big long condemnations of being offensive boil down to; Don’t mock me!

    FFS. I have spent my whole life being mocked. You have no special right not to be mocked. You are, I presume, living in a majority European nation.

    Having said all that, I actually agree with most people here about respect. Personally I would not provacate for the reason of provaction. Though I defend my right to do so!

  45. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:52 pm  

    Francis

    Welcome. I read your letter in the Guardian today it was really good. Good to see you here.

  46. Jay Singh — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:53 pm  

    jonz

    Who and to what was your last post referring to?

  47. j0nz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:57 pm  

    Dr Francis Sedgemore, having read your letter in The Guardian, I’m pretty sure you will feel at home here!

    Ironically I prefer commenting here than to HP, also. Probably due to my innate contrary nature.

  48. j0nz — on 3rd February, 2006 at 11:59 pm  

    Jay it was a sorta rubuttal to Kulvinder. :)

  49. Opinionated Voice — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:00 am  

    […] The cartoons controversy was mentioned today at Friday prayers. The advice was to acknowledge that although the cartoons are offensive, it is wrong to react with the current wave of angy and violent protest. I assume that the majority of mosques around the country gave smilar advice, although the acts of the minority have over-ridden this even though Britain has condemned the cartoons. One commenter earlier referred to what could be considered more offensive images pertaining to Christianity (pictures below) that previously received collective objection, condemnation and protest, but without the mass of violent and agreesive incidents. In contrast, the ‘Muslim’ response to the current controversy plays into the hands of extremists and Far Right by living up to the negative stereotypes now attributed to Muslims. […]

  50. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:01 am  

    jonz

    I don’t think you read Kulvinder’s post that clearly.

  51. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:06 am  

    Ironically I prefer commenting here than to HP, also. Probably due to my innate contrary nature.

    jOnz! You are a veritable George Orwell! You sexy contrarian!

    Dude, its alright to admit that you like it here because you like us - no need to be ashamed of that.

  52. Francis Sedgemore — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:08 am  

    Welcome. I read your letter in the Guardian today it was really good. Good to see you here. [Jay Singh]

    Thank you, Jay, for your warm welcome. I’ll probably keep fairly quiet here, read and see what I can learn. As for the letter in Der Grauniad, this was heavily edited, and the published version omitted quite a bit of what I wanted to say, including…

    In Jyllands-Posten I have an image of a group of over-adventurous adolescents faced with a big red button labelled “Do not press this button!”, who then go and press it. As the building collapses around their ears they choke in the dust, muttering “Oh bugger!”.

  53. j0nz — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:09 am  

    I don’t think you read Kulvinder’s post that clearly.

    Kulvinder attempted to be balanced, but if you re-read it’s much like the other Sunny/Brownie leftist view point of well, come on! Be responsible - you really shouldn’t mock Muslims.

    I really do appreciate Kulvinder seeing and aknowledging the other point of view. Though I can’t help but feel this sort of ‘racial undercurrent’ of ‘respect us’.

    Which, of course, comes through one’s deeds and actions; not the reaction of others.

  54. Sunny — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:10 am  

    We’re always kind to asylum seekers Francis, apart from those who sponge off the state and spend their time railing against the British political system. and yeah, agreed with your letter too.

    Kulvinder you old slag, I see you couldn’t resist posting ;)
    As always, we’re on the same wavelength. Now I’m just waiting to see what Arif will say, if he does.

  55. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:10 am  

    jOnz

    You caricature Sunny’s beliefs.

  56. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:10 am  

    Jay, i never questioned the right of those papers to publish what they want (i didn’t even allude to that) I did however question the intellectual merit of what they did.

    Publishing something offensive for the sake of publishing something offensive is little more than shallow trivialism.

    Im not sure how you’ve misread my post, its obvious a number of people believe there is value in those cartoons being published, its a requirement to them being published. The remainder however have refrained from publishing them because they regard those particular cartoons of having little merit. I obviously concur with the latter.

    You’ve ripped apart a straw man if you believe i advocate censorship.

  57. Don — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:15 am  

    Jay,

    ‘The true test comes when you are faced with things that you may believe do not have value ‘

    Well said. Speech is not required to have a value. That’s why we call it free.

  58. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:16 am  

    Kulvinder

    I don’t believe you advocate censorship if you say you don’t. And in my post, I did’nt suggest otherwise.

  59. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:18 am  

    Don

    But…..when I say it doesnt have to have a value - it also means you get tested when you have to support something that offends you profoundly. That is the true test. And that can wrench your soul.

  60. Sunny — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:19 am  

    But j0nz - that is not held up since me and Kulvinder both fully supported the Sikh play Behzti to be shown. To a certain extent, there is a subjective decision to be made on what has merit - is the point they’re trying to make worthwhile? Then I would try to popularise and talk about it far and wide, and use the blog to make the same point.

    In this case I don’t really see a point they’re trying to make. Self-censorship? Pull the other one, the media always self-censors according to the sensibilities of its audience. That is a given. JP just guessed it could get away with pushing this unwritten boundary. As I said at HP - people are very careful who they fuck with. For example, papers don’t mess around with advertisers or take an anti-corporate line generally. So it’s disingenuous to say that JP just wanted to make a point about self-censorship.

    Therefore, I support the British media’s stance.

  61. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:19 am  

    Be responsible - you really shouldn’t mock Muslims.

    I really do appreciate Kulvinder seeing and aknowledging the other point of view. Though I can’t help but feel this sort of ‘racial undercurrent’ of ‘respect us’.

    Have you read what i wrote? I don’t have any problem with mocking people, i did state i supported Rushdie!?

    Unless you advocate censorship (and i haven’t) this isn’t about censorship, but rather journalistic standards an intellectual credibility. Im actually pissing myself laughing whenever anyone says

    ‘but in muslim countries they say XXXXXX about XXXXXX’

    well yeah, but i thought we were meant to be above the standards of generic totalitarian regimes and their media.

  62. j0nz — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:24 am  

    they don’t mess around with advertisers or take an anti-corporate line generally

    Hilarious! You genuinely think anti-corporation organisations have any standing, whatsover?! They are a blip! Still laughing…I respect your views Sunny, but can’t help but mention they are rather skew-whiffed.

  63. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:24 am  

    Sunny - you can say that the whole affair has spun out of control and subsequently in the frenzy the damage done is out of proportion to value gained. But are you really saying that in the first instance there was no value in publishing these cartoons? That no case can be made for it? I am not sure I agree.

  64. Indigo Jo Blogs — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:25 am  

    Extremists crash the party again (updated)

    This afternoon, after jumu’ah, there was a demonstration outside the Danish embassy in Sloane Street, London, which was supposed to follow a march from the “Central Mosque” near Regent’s Park. I got to the embassy around 2:15pm, to find a…

  65. Don — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:28 am  

    ‘there is a subjective decision to be made in each case - is the point they’re trying to make worthwhile and worth protecting?’

    Hands up anyone qualified to make that decision.

  66. j0nz — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:29 am  

    FFS! Again! Visit

    http://www.michellemalkin.com/

    and tell me what you feel.

  67. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:30 am  

    But are you really saying that in the first instance there was no value in publishing these cartoons? That no case can be made for it?

    You asked sunny, but ill reply as well. I can’t see anything of real merit in those cartoons. Ill laugh in their faces If thats the standard of thought they use when making an argument.

  68. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:32 am  

    Kulvinder

    Standard of thought is subjective.

  69. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:35 am  

    Jonz, those demonstrators are opinioning from the same level - the lowest common denominator - as those who wrote and published those cartoons. Those who support their publication should look upon their equals without contempt.

  70. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:36 am  

    Jay i never suggested otherwise.

  71. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:37 am  

    Kulvinder

    You just lost me mate - publishing those cartoons is NEVER equal to calling for people to be beheaded, massacred, slaughtered, to have a 9/11 commited in Europe.

  72. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:41 am  

    You just lost me mate - publishing those cartoons is NEVER equal to calling for people to be beheaded, massacred, slaughtered, to have a 9/11 commited in Europe.

    Honey i am consistent in what i say, i never mentioned what was said, rather the segment of their respective society it was aimed at (the LCD). Both sides want little else other than to push each others buttons, if my sense of superiority makes me smirk from the sidelines, well so be it.

    It was you who stated not so long ago

    Standard of thought is subjective.

  73. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:43 am  

    Kulvinder

    You have completely lost me.

  74. Sunny — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:46 am  

    Don - If that is meant to be taken as - do you think the cartoons should have been published, my reply would be - Hell no. They were a bunch of crap cartoons, some deliberately meant to disparage and outrage people, with little artistic merit or any real point.

    Western Europe has been disparaging Jesus for decades, and there is still much concern over when it happens in practice. Yet there is a feeling that everyone else should submit to the same standards.

    I will however defend their right from persecution and violence etc once published, but I don’t support their publication.

  75. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:48 am  

    You’re drawing your lines in the sand and saying what they’re saying is worse than what the papers wrote.

    They’re drawing their lines in the sand and saying what the papers wrote is worse than what they said.

    Their frame of reference is not temporal, it is based on faith. The frame of reference you and the papers use is different (the moral compass if you will).

    You can each claim your subjective justifications on what you use.

  76. Don — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:49 am  

    Kulvinder,

    I can’t believe you made that equivelence.

    Besides which, you seem to be suggesting that if Christopher Hitchens and Ralph Steadman collaborated on something offensive to Islam, it would be worth supporting, but a bunch of talentless hacks in the arse end of Scandanavia. Fuck ‘em.

  77. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:53 am  

    Kulvinder

    Seriously, there is such a thing as disapearing up your own relativistic philosophical black hole.

  78. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:55 am  

    I can’t believe you made that equivelence

    The papers wanted a reaction, those protestors want a reaction. I consider both groups to be tiresome.

    If i thought the papers had said something interesting i probably would have cared more.

    Besides which, you seem to be suggesting that if Christopher Hitchens and Ralph Steadman collaborated on something offensive to Islam, it would be worth supporting, but a bunch of talentless hacks in the arse end of Scandanavia. Fuck ‘em.

    And you seem to be suggesting id equate the merit of something based solely on its author. Well of i wouldn’t!!!. If Mr Hitchens (and im no fan btw) did those cartoons id be equally unimpressed.

  79. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 12:56 am  

    Seriously, there is such a thing as disapearing up your own relativistic philosophical black hole.

    Yeah well my dad can beat up your dad.

  80. JS Mill — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:01 am  

    Siddharth says “In addition to the violence incited by the al-Ghurabaa fuckwits, over at Harry’s Place, the posts by HP bloggers and comments thread read like a heaving lynch mob baying for blood. Truly madly deeply amazing.”

    This disgraceful comment would lead any fair minded reader to conclude that Harry’s Place is some kind of haven for BNP scum. Nothing could be further from the truth. The posters there are best described as principled liberals, without even a hint of menace. Obviously, what Siddharth hates is the fact that they wipe the floor intellectually with the those who advocate appeasement of terrorists or suggest an imaginary moral equivalence between peaceful Danish journalists who hurt feelings and violent Islamist thugs who cut off heads.

  81. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:02 am  

    I think the first part of your paragraph would work better without the second part mang.

  82. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:08 am  

    You know when these demonstrators burn the Danish flag? Where do they get them from? I mean they must have stock of American, Israeli and British flags. But a Danish one? In the Gaza strip, how do you get a Danish flag so quickly?

  83. Don — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:15 am  

    Sunny,

    No, it wasn’t meant to be taken that way. It was meant to be taken as;

    How do we decide what is of sufficient intellectual, artistic and ethically sophisticated value to be worth protecting? At least that’s the impression I am getting from both you and Kulvindar. That if these cartoons had shown more merit it would be a different question. It wouldn’t.

    Was it a publicity stunt? One of the cartoons said as much, another just abused the newspaper. Both were published, do you think they’ll be excluded from the inevitable death list ? These illustrators felt intimidated into self censorship knew that publishing was a life-threatening decision. I don’t know of anyone qualified to decide if the ham fisted and the provincial are
    ‘ worth protecting?’

    Kulvinder,

    Nice to see you back. I used to really enjoy your stuff. Don’t remember you as being so smug.

  84. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:16 am  

    Just to clarify i wouldn’t condone any acts of violence against anyone, but if person X wants to start shouting

    ‘omg you suck! lol, freespeechfreespeechfreesppeech’

    and person Y responds

    ‘omg hope you die! lol, freespeechfreespeechfreespeech’

    i couldn’t really care less. If anyone is harmed i hope ther persons concerned are punished, but last time i checked wishing ill off someone isn’t against the law.

    To me both groups are loons.

  85. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:17 am  

    Don’t remember you as being so smug.

    Its just the end of the week :)

  86. Rohin — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:27 am  

    “You know when these demonstrators burn the Danish flag? Where do they get them from? I mean they must have stock of American, Israeli and British flags. But a Danish one? In the Gaza strip, how do you get a Danish flag so quickly?”

    Jay, they raided the building which houses the Danish embassy. But I like the idea of having some Israeli and American flags always at hand for the latest protest! I might start selling them in the Middle East along with matches as a little earner.

  87. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:36 am  

    Rohin

    They will be fucked if Monrovia or Guinea-Bissau or Laos ever does anything to piss off Islam. How the hell are they going to find their flags?

    The other thing that was funny was they showed some brothers in Bangladesh or Indonesia ‘burning an effigy of the Danish Prime Minister’ - but it was just a scarecrow or a shop mannequin stuffed with newspaper. WTF?? I mean, it could have been anyone!

  88. Sunny — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:37 am  

    Don:
    That if these cartoons had shown more merit it would be a different question. It wouldn’t.

    We both support the right of the cartoons to exist, and that the person publishing should not face death threats. What I’m saying, and I think Kulvinder is alluding to, is that its not an incident we feel passionate about defending since the original stunt was without artistic merit, had no real point to make, and was just gratituous insulting with little point. It’s like me asking you to wholeheartedly support me if I made a bad joke about Jews in the holocaust. You may support my right to make it, but you’ll still think I’m a twat and want to distance yourself from me :) (I hope)

  89. DrM — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:38 am  

    Islamophobia is out of control in Europe…expect things to get worse, I for one am keeping a packed suitcase just in case things turn for the worse. Brothers and sisters never underestimate the power of Jihad.

  90. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:40 am  

    Brothers and sisters never underestimate the power of Jihad

    What’s that then?

  91. DrM — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:42 am  

    The kuffar in their sustained crusade against Islam and Muslims have yet again displayed their hatred towards us this time by attacking the honour of our beloved Messenger Muhammad (saw). In September 2005 the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 10 cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad (saw) which were later republished by a Norwegian paper Magazinet. Until now both governments have refused to denounce the drawings and to condemn the publication of them.

    This insult on Muhammad(saw)should come as no surprise to the Muslims because this is the exact and true nature of the kuffar that Allah (swt) has informed us of in the Quran. The kuffar will never have respect for our deen, they will never honour it and will always seek to ridicule and disparage it. At every opportunity they will try to attack and belittle it whilst concealing the greater hatred they have for it in their hearts. This is also evident throughout the history of Islam where the kuffar carried out similar acts to try and defame Islam. Allah (swt) tells us that; verily, the Kaafireen [disbelievers] are ever unto you your open enemies.

  92. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:44 am  

    Blimey.

  93. j0nz — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:48 am  

    Islamophobia is out of control in Europe…expect things to get worse, I for one am keeping a packed suitcase just in case things turn for the worse. Brothers and sisters never underestimate the power of Jihad.

  94. j0nz — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:48 am  

    eh?

  95. Rohin — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:50 am  

    DrM, do you wear Doc Martens?

    What does (saw) mean? I thought it was (pbuh). Or is that the Arabic version? So then what’s (swt)?

    If you really are keeping a packed suitcase, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Like the people who kept bomb shelters stocked for the Millennium Bug Apocalypse. Well, good luck mate!

    Jay the whole concept of burning is one I’ve wanted to write a post about for ages. Burning effigies is a typically Asian thing (true Asia), self-immolation is a form of protest in Asia and of course cremation is our journey out of this world - for many Asian cultures.

    As for effigies, the day I have a straw-newspaper-effigy of me burned in Bangladesh, it’s the day I know I’ve arrived.

  96. JS Mill — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:51 am  

    Feeling inferior must really hurt, DrM. There are two ways of relieving the pain: 1) Jihad (trans. - murdering a group of innocent people who are no different to your mum, brother, daughter) 2) Growing up.

  97. j0nz — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:54 am  

    DrM is married to Bikhair, surely?

  98. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:57 am  

    As for effigies, the day I have a straw-newspaper-effigy of me burned in Bangladesh, it’s the day I know I’ve arrived.

    I reckon it wouldnt be that difficult to get that done. They had a march supporting Bin Laden after 9/11 in Bangladesh and one of the dudes had a placard of Bin Laden sitting next to Bert from Sesame Street. They do good things in Bangladesh.

  99. Rohin — on 4th February, 2006 at 1:58 am  

    I think they’re cut from a different cloth actually j0nz. She’s the snooty anf FUCKING ANNOYING type, he seems more like the thugs outside Finsbury Mosque cheering Abu Hamza. Oddly, when the protests were first shown on TV, the crowds in Bradford or somewhere like that were shouting “Denmark go to hell, Germany, France” etc etc but then they said “UK go to hell”

    I thought, “what the hell have we done?”

    It was just an excuse to voice their usual shit-brained hatred of the West. Let me be serious for a second. When I see people like this attacking their own country for no rhyme or reason, a country like Britain, it makes me sick. There is little I find more reprehensible - it’s no different to bombing the tube, same mentality. I fucking hate these little shits.

  100. Rohin — on 4th February, 2006 at 2:02 am  

    Jay - American intelligence for Iraq war revealed.

  101. Jay Singh — on 4th February, 2006 at 2:05 am  

    This is the thing I meant - so funny.

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/bert.htm

  102. Rohin — on 4th February, 2006 at 2:08 am  

    Jay I’m pretty sure that’s photoshopped post-photo-taking.

  103. Bikhair — on 4th February, 2006 at 6:30 am  

    Dr.M

    “This insult on Muhammad(saw)should come as no surprise to the Muslims because this is the exact and true nature of the kuffar that Allah (swt) has informed us of in the Quran. The kuffar will never have respect for our deen, they will never honour it and will always seek to ridicule and disparage it.”

    This I agree with. But the best dawah is our behavior.

  104. Bikhair — on 4th February, 2006 at 6:34 am  

    Rohin,

    “I think they’re cut from a different cloth actually j0nz. She’s the snooty anf FUCKING ANNOYING type…”

    Dont make me blush.

    “When I see people like this attacking their own country for no rhyme or reason, a country like Britain, it makes me sick.”

    Britian sucks because everything there is small and I am American and we like things big and obnoxious. Also while in Britian I couldnt find any chlorox or Seasoning Salt. How else do you people expect me to cook and wash?

  105. mirax — on 4th February, 2006 at 6:37 am  

    You cook with Chlorox Bikki? Explains everything…

  106. Kulvinder — on 4th February, 2006 at 7:37 am  

    Don, id agree with what sunny said, in addition its up to the newspaper editors (or more likely owners) to decide what they publish. This isn’t a debate on freedom of speech per se, since noone is advocating censorship. Its about journalistic standards and whether you believe the cartoons said something of merit and hence deserved to be published or whether they didn’t and shouldn’t have been.

    I would find a cartoons with ‘uncle tom’s cabin’ type caricatures of black people equally shit, especially if they were pulished under some crap pretension like ‘hey political correctness has gone mad we must take a stance’ etc.

    I support the right of anyone to say what they wish, but i reserve the right to judge the validity of what they say.

  107. mirax — on 4th February, 2006 at 2:20 pm  

    Interesting visitors indeed ;-)
    PP’s been overrun by BNP’ers, Islamists and HP refugees in recent days.

  108. Reiss — on 4th February, 2006 at 4:12 pm  

    The muslim world of today is suffering & will go on suffering, because they have denied the advent of the promised Messiah as foretold in the hadith & Quran & other holy scriptures. Time for them to open there harden hearts & open there minds to what the rest of the Muslim world have declared as Non-muslim sect.

  109. Reiss — on 4th February, 2006 at 4:18 pm  

    http://www.alislam.org/archives/2006/summary/FSS20060203-EN.html

  110. mirax — on 4th February, 2006 at 4:37 pm  

    fuck, the x’tian nutters have come round too.

  111. Don — on 4th February, 2006 at 4:50 pm  

    Mirax,

    I think it’s some Mahdist nutter with a C19 messiah.

  112. Bikhair — on 4th February, 2006 at 4:50 pm  

    jOnz,

    “Meet Bikhair’s other half.”

    Because you are trying to be funny, I will not accuse you of slandering an innocent women which carries a heavy penality in the Sharia. You better be lucky the honor of women arent protected by your country’s laws. Please dont associate me with any man on this forum.

  113. mirax — on 4th February, 2006 at 4:58 pm  

    Thanks Don, i assumed too much without clicking on the link. It is the ahmadiyyas. Getting killed in pakistan/bangladesh. If only Yusuf Smith would pop in to tell us all how it is their own fault for being dastardly deviants…I’d go to bed a happy woman.

  114. Bikhair — on 4th February, 2006 at 5:06 pm  

    Mirax,

    “…dastardly deviants…”

    Oh please. To call then deviants would be a compliment as they would still be Muslims albeit deviant Muslims. These people are kafirs. They reject the Quran, they reject the Sunnah, they reject the shahadah. They might as well call themselves Christian or Hindu, or Ahmadiyyas.

  115. The Real Yahya Birt — on 5th February, 2006 at 12:32 am  

    RE: Message 107

    I’ve been told by a brother that someone is posting falsely using my name (see Message 107). This is deception which is not countenanced by any moral system, religious or otherwise, that I’m aware of. I ask you to stop immediately and to take responsiblity for your own views under your own name.

    Thank you very much,

    The real Yahya Birt

  116. Sunny — on 5th February, 2006 at 2:05 am  

    I’ve deleted the old comment and related ones…

  117. mirax — on 5th February, 2006 at 2:58 am  

    It’s odd how the trio impersonated on PP- Bikhair, Yusuf smith and now Birt- are all conservative muslims. There appears to be a mischief-maker with a definite agenda about.

  118. Vikrant — on 5th February, 2006 at 4:11 am  

    Rohin,

    swt means Suhanallah Wat T’wa or something like it.

  119. Borlin Davis — on 5th February, 2006 at 10:23 pm  

    Wow.. who would think in 1006 their could be a clash of cultures like this? I mean, how backwards is the world if people can’t appreciate a basic right to freedom of speech IN OTHER COUNTRIES??

    If any of you care to make your voice heard, spread the word about www.DrawMohammad.com

    borlin

  120. Cinnamon — on 6th February, 2006 at 8:59 am  

    Well,

    I can’t draw (at all!) but, if I could, I’d now be making a cartoon with Mr. Rasmussen holding back the incenced hordes, shouting:

    Stop! Stop! We’ve run out of embassies!

  121. heusden — on 6th February, 2006 at 9:33 am  

    British Press, Jack Straw, Blair and Bush comments and crticism on Denmark and Europe in the cartoon-issue is completely rediculous.

    They are complete opportunists. It’s obvious that GB and the US have themselves are being blackmailed bij the Islam-maffia. They are involved in the Middle-east for economic and political reasons and affraid for attacks.
    Suddenly the principle of freedom of speech isnowhere to be seen. Hypocrits!!!!!!!!!

    For me, as a Dutchman, it is clear that GB should be kicked out of the Europe. The conservative Boris tries to tell us how far Turkey has developed as a democratic country in the last hundred years. Great Boris !!!! If you think that’s the case invite them in GB. And for the US?if they want Turkey within teh western sphere; invite them for NAFTA.

    For me it’s clear: there is an invasion of islam in Europe and i’m not waiting to see our western culture be swapped away by a fundamentalistic Islam: a retarded religion in my opinion. They are the Inquisition of thes days.

    There are to much intelligent Islamist people in my neigbourhoud claiming to be integrated in western society; in recent time i’have seen to often that there is to much understanding for fanatic, fundamentalist islamists activity’s like blackmailing, setting fire, threaten people and shooting opponents and using all kinds of violence. I call this behaviour:
    “klammheimlicht freude”

    Freedom of religion does not mean that every imbecil can tell me what to do, by taking there own vision as the absolute truth.

  122. kulvinder — on 6th February, 2006 at 10:16 am  

    You’re just bitter ’cause the arabs are melting the icecaps and sinking the netherlands, gwan admit it!

  123. Ash — on 8th February, 2006 at 4:11 pm  

    kulvinder,
    very witty comment, i like it…….DOWN with the netherlands…..literally!….they soon be swimming with the fish…..thats jihad on a totally different scale.

  124. El Cid — on 8th February, 2006 at 4:27 pm  

    The weekly French satirical mag Charlie Hebdo has published an edition dedicated in its entirety to the cartoon polemic (all this from El Pais).
    On the cover of this French Private Eye, since I can’t find a website, is a caricuture of Mohammed with his head in his hands. The caption reads “It’s hard to be loved by wankers/idiots.”

  125. Confused a lot of the time — on 5th March, 2006 at 9:57 pm  

    Just when I think i have it figured I have something interesting to read! Good Stuff!

    Richie

  126. picture of zoroastrianism — on 11th March, 2006 at 2:41 am  

    Thank you!

  127. ethical objectivism — on 15th March, 2006 at 6:41 pm  

    Fantastico!

    Thanks!

    _ Bab-ul-Janna

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