I respect Muslims and any religion that acknowledges there is just but one God. I also have respect for free speech and not letting free speech be controlled by terror. I believe the Danish people should be proud to freely speak their minds, and I ho…

“I am quite sure the reason of the ire is the effect of this idolatory.”

They are not commiting idolatry, they feel insulted. As do I as a Muslim.

“For e.g. if the Koran said, if you make an idol of me…you will be spanked on your bottom 5 times and given a soother later on – I guess the Muslims will not mind as much. But the descriptions of a steamy hell for all these fundos is whats getting them all worked up.”

This statement doesnt jibe with what you just wrote. Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) forbade images of himself so the Muslims would not follow the footsteps of the Christian and Jews who idolized their pious predecesors.

“THink about the Akhira (afterlife)’ – this is their day of judgement where they will be put in boiling vats of oil or some such.”

You dont know that nor do “they know that” And to claim to have that kind of knowledge is kufr.

“It is this irrational fear of what will happen when they are dead (no one miss the irony here) that scares the beejesus out of these guys.
Thats me…”

You really stepped into it Cinammon. Dont worry, your spanking will not take too long.

“So… you’re basically saying here that it is all a question of interpretation…”

No I am saying it is about how much knowledge you have. You dont need to interpret the Quran and the Sunnah but you certianly need to know it. I know jOnz does not know it, even if he thinks he knows it.

“…and that what is in the Quran & Hadith isn’t _really_ meant this way but, the cleric will tell you what he thinks is the correct interpretation, therefore, the word of the cleric is a more lucid, logical and important to you than the original word of your deity?”

No dear that is what you are saying. What I am saying is that the person of knowledge is more lucid, logical, and important, in matters of the deen of Islam than jOnz is considering that they have far more knowledge of Islam they he will probably ever have.

Consider the earliest scholars of Islam: THe Companions of Prophet Muhammed. What did he say about them, their knowledge of ISlam, their practice of ISlam, and their opinions of Islam.

Prophet Muhammed: “Indeed, the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) before you split-up into seventy-two sects. And this nation (Muslims) will split-up into seventy-three sects, seventy two are in the Fire and one is in Paradise.” [5] And in another narration, “All of them are in the Fire except one.” It was asked, ‘Who is that one?’ He replied, “That which I and my Companions are upon.”

Now Prophet Muhammed didnt say the religion that only I was upon, because he knew that his Companions have enough knowledge and understanding of Islam that the poeple could take understanding from them. Their actions didnt contradict that of Prophet Muhammed but preserved it.

So if Abu Bakr, or Umar ibn al Khattab, were walking the earth today, or if Aiesha (may Allah be pleased with them all) were walking the earth today they would be the most knowledge poeple on Islam. Why? Because they have the most knowledge. Similarly the scholars that I can suggest to jOnz, who are in fact walking the earth today have the most knowledge.

The characteristics of some of these scholars are as follows:

Imaam Aboo Haneefah (d.150H) – rahimahullaah – said, “If a hadeeth is found to be authentic, then that is my madhhab.

Imaam ash-Shaafi’ee (d.204H) – rahimahullaah – said, “Everything that I say, for which there is something authentically related from the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) contrary to my saying, then the hadeeth of the Prophet comes first. So do not make taqleed (blind-following) of me.”

Imaam Ahmad (d.241H) – rahimahullaah – said, “Do not make taqleed (blind-following) of me, nor make taqleed of Maalik, nor of ash-Shaafi’ee, nor of al-Awzaa’ee, nor of ath-Thawree. But take from where they took.”

Somethings Prophet Muhammed had to say about knowledge:

‘Abdullaah Ibn ‘Umar Ibnul ‘Aas (radiyallaahu ‘anhu) who said, “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) saying, ‘Verily Allaah does not take away knowledge by snatching it away from the people, rather He takes it away by taking away the scholars, until there is not one scholar left. So The people will take ignorant leaders, so they will be asked, and they will give rulings without knowledge. So they will be misguided, and they will misguide. [Saheeh Muslim (8/60)]

And dont let me get on what Ibn Taymiyah says about learning the Arabic language.

“Methinks you’re making it up as you go along…”

Methinks youre not thinking at all, or is that your ignorance talking?

I see that one aspect of this whole shemaroo is not mentioned. That Islam forbids idolatory is understood. But are all those guys out there really worked up due to the morality or legality of the thing? I think not.
I am quite sure the reason of the ire is the effect of this idolatory. For e.g. if the Koran said, if you make an idol of me…you will be spanked on your bottom 5 times and given a soother later on – I guess the Muslims will not mind as much. But the descriptions of a steamy hell for all these fundos is whats getting them all worked up. Again it all boils down to the fear of something that propels these guys into action. And that is what gets my goat. Most arguments you will find on websites end with this…’THink about the Akhira (afterlife)’ – this is their day of judgement where they will be put in boiling vats of oil or some such.
It is this irrational fear of what will happen when they are dead (no one miss the irony here) that scares the beejesus out of these guys.
Thats me…

“jOnz, I caution you about taking it upon yourself to read hadith and Quran and come to you conclusions about Islam. I have lisented to enough lessons from ISlamic teachers from Saudi Arabia and Yemen, bondafide scholars and listening to them reinforces that fact that it takes alot more than reading a hadith to understand it.”

So… you’re basically saying here that it is all a question of interpretation, and that what is in the Quran & Hadith isn’t _really_ meant this way, but, the cleric will tell you what he thinks is the correct interpretation, therefore, the word of the cleric is a more lucid, logical and important to you than the original word of your deity?

Methinks you’re making it up as you go along

“Notice how the muslim’s view of the situation is exactly the same as a Mafia Don’s? But I think it would be instructive to turn this around.”

I am a Muslim. Are you talking about me? BTW stay away from those nasty pigs. Farms chickens instead, it is a more dignified profession.

“I apologise, according to Indonesian Sheikh Mukhlas said;
…the Prophet Mohammed …undertook to murder infidels… and that the Prophet waged jihad operations 77 times in the first 10 years as head of the Muslim community in Medina?”

Hmm, I dont know either. I have never heard the ulema of ahlul Sunnah talk about those kinds of things. I can certianly ask but it will take weeks.

jOnz, I caution you about taking it upon yourself to read hadith and Quran and come to you conclusions about Islam. I have lisented to enough lessons from ISlamic teachers from Saudi Arabia and Yemen, bondafide scholars and listening to them reinforces that fact that it takes alot more than reading a hadith to understand it.

Dont take Islamic texts as a joke because its an “Oriental” discipline. Dont think because you have a copy of Muslim and Bukhari that youve got the edge. I have the same books as you do and more. I dont read hadith and make up my own mind. Why should I when there are people alive who have memorised more hadith than you and I both know exist.

You live in England so if you would like I can direct you to some brothers who are holding some knowledge because it looks like you are biting off more than you can chew and choking on it.

“In Beirut, the leader of Lebanon’s Shi’ite Hizbollah said the row would never had occurred if a 17-year-old death edict against British writer Salman Rushdie been carried out.

The late Iranian leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini called on Muslims in 1989 to kill Rushdie for blasphemy against Islam in his book “The Satanic Verses.” Rushdie went into hiding and was never attacked.”

Notice how the muslim’s view of the situation is exactly the same as a Mafia Don’s? But I think it would be instructive to turn this around. What if the British had arrested khomeini and brought him back to London to face charges pertaining to ordering the death of a lawful British subject? What if the clown who is running Iran has been arrested as soon as he deboarded at JFK a couple months ago and made to answer for kidnapping and terrorizing Americans in 1979 – 1980? These arse-holes continue to threaten because they are never held accountable.

By the way, very stylish handling of the dickhead on the other thread.

I apologise, according to Indonesian Sheikh Mukhlas said;
…the Prophet Mohammed …undertook to murder infidels… and that the Prophet waged jihad operations 77 times in the first 10 years as head of the Muslim community in Medina?”

Although admittedly I haven’t been able to verify this rather outlandish claim from Hadith or Suras… I think he’s talking bollox, what say you?

I hate shirk, but I think you are suffering from your constant adoration of me.

“We have to protect the minorites in our countries, but this issue has gone way beyond that, and is now something like 1.5 billion people from one religion, demanding that the rest of the world take a particular consideration to them. Why? When no other major religion can?”

1.5 billion? Dont exaggerate. I am sure those Muslim kids dying of malaria and their parents are worried about a slightly different issue at the moment. Statements like the one you just made turns your strange imagination into reality and no one should have to bend over backwards for that.

“Im free to talk about Christianity with christians, judaism with jews, hinduism with hindus; but i can’t converse properly with most muslims about islam even though i am one.
That to me is the problem.”

You can talk to me, over the net. Ask me anything and if I have the ilm, I will let you know. But lets get serious Col. you want shock and I want to teach. YOu want qauntity and I want qaulity.

“According to many Islamic scholors, Mohammed masterminded over 60 slaughters (Jihad operations).”

Slaughters? Were we that good? Aww the good ol’ days.

“Surely that would have Bikki frothing with anger.”

You couldnt imagine how much blessings I recieve when I remain patience in the face of difficulty. Do you think I will let a twit like you take that away from me? Sure…