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  • LA Jews shut down Israeli consulate


    by Sunny
    16th January, 2009 at 12:59 am    

    Was sent this earlier today by email

    Early in the morning yesterday, January 14, Jewish activists in a historic first in Los Angeles, chained themselves to the entrance of the Israeli Consulate and blocked the driveway to the parking structure, blocking all traffic in and out of the building.

    “We sent a clear message to the world that LA Jews are part of the global majority in opposition to the Israeli siege of Gaza,” said Lenny Potash a 72-year old protester who was cuffed to eight other activists, blocking the driveway to the consulate. The activists were joined by 50 other supporters and who chanted “LA Jews say, End the Siege of Gaza” and “Not in Our Name! We will Not be Silent!” Protesters also held up signs reading “Israeli Consulate: Closed for War Crimes.”

    “We succeeded today in letting Jews and other Americans of conscience know that it is safe to speak out against the policies of the Israeli government and that the Israeli lobby does not speak for everyone,” said Robin Ellis, a Registered Nurse who also risked arrest to block the consulate entrance. “We are committed to escalating non-violent activities in the future to end the siege and win justice for Palestinians,” Ellis said.

    The group of activists were an ad-hoc, multi-generational group of LA Jewish residents, including members of the recently founded International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. They shared a commitment to ending the Israeli siege on Gaza and an end to Israeli apartheid. The demonstration is part of a wave of demonstrations across the United States uniting Palestinians, Jewish people, and other Americans outraged by the siege.

    “We are shocked and outraged at Israeli’s latest act of violent aggression against the Palestinian people. Killing over 950 people, including 250 women and children, bombing schools and mosques and then calling it self-defense—that is the worst kind of hypocrisy. It also amounts to war crimes,” said Hannah Howard, a local member of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. “We shut down the Israeli consulate today because as Jewish people we cannot allow business as usual while violence is being done in our name.”

    Action participants also spoke out against the US government’s unconditional support for Israel’s siege and its ongoing war against the Palestinian people. “While US-funded F16′s rain down bombs on the people of Gaza, our elected officials locally and nationally offer unqualified support.” said Marsha Steinberg, a retired union representative. “Our government must stop sending billions of dollars in military and economic aid to the Israeli war machine,” Goldberg said. In the coming week, concerned Americans from all backgrounds will call on the new Presidential administration to make a 180 degree change in policy.


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    Filed in: Middle East,United States






    97 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. Pickled Politics » Deleting racist comments?

      [...] by Sunny on 16th January, 2009 at 4:32 pm     David T from Harry’s Place turns up in the comments and says: Katy Come to Harry’s Place. We’re trialing a policy of pruning the anti-Muslim and [...]




    1. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 1:13 am  

      Great action!

    2. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 1:25 am  

      “We are committed to escalating non-violent activities in the future to end the siege and win justice for Palestinians,” Ellis said.

      And so am I.

    3. douglas clark — on 16th January, 2009 at 2:18 am  

      Well, that is a bright light in all the gloom. Perhaps there is a way out of this after all.

    4. Letters From A Tory — on 16th January, 2009 at 10:00 am  

      I think the message is finally getting through to people - if Israel’s military offensive was all about self-defence, we wouldn’t be seeing and hearing what the media are reporting.

    5. fug — on 16th January, 2009 at 10:23 am  

      did you hear about the chap who went to the pro israel protest in london on sunday, started singing happy jexish songs , leading the crowd to join him… only to unfurl a huge palestinian flag?

      Its incredible to see that so many ‘non aljazeera Press TV watchers, who seldom see the blood on the streets of gaza are coming out against israeli beastliness.

    6. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 10:33 am  

      .

    7. hermes — on 16th January, 2009 at 10:45 am  

      Katy, are you lost for words…lol. Can’t believe what is happening?

    8. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:03 am  

      I was just thinking about the way that this site turns into a playground for antisemitic losers like you whenever the moderators aren’t about. And about how most of the regular commenters whose views made this a really inclusive and exciting website to be on don’t comment anymore, because people like you are wrecking it with your nasty, racist bile. What a shame.

    9. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:08 am  

      Hermes

      What good is it for me to see some positive news as we have in Leon’s post. Only then to find its an opening for you to use offensive language as you have done. Its not something I’d seen from you before.

      It is a great shame.

    10. David T — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:16 am  

      Katy

      Come to Harry’s Place. We’re trialing a policy of pruning the anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish bigots, and the trolls, and off topic posters.

    11. Jai — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:17 am  

      Katy/Refresh,

      I think that the giveaway about some commenters’ inherent antisemitism is when they start making belligerent comments and snide remarks about “Jews” in response to actions by Israel’s military and politicians that they disagree with, especially when Jewish commenters join the debate.

      It would be like someone starting to make similar disparaging remarks about Muslims in response to questionable actions by Pakistan’s military and politicians, and subsequent online discussions that Muslims may participate in. Or someone taunting Hindus if India’s military/politicians do something dodgy…..

      Well, you get the general idea.

    12. Sid — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:28 am  

      Hermes’ and other antisemitic losers’ comments has been deleted as per PP comments policy regarding racist comments.

    13. Sid — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:37 am  

      Life is hard enough when you belong here…

    14. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:46 am  

      DavidT,

      I can’t see why Katy should want to do that. Katy is at home here.

      For goodness sake you’re only ‘trialling’ a civilised policy now? Give it 5 years before The Harry Brand recovers.

    15. Shamit — on 16th January, 2009 at 12:05 pm  

      There should be an immediate cease fire in Gaza now. I am a stauch supporter of a sovereign state to protect itself from terror groups and Israel in no exception.

      However, as a sovereign democratic state, it must adhere to higher principles than its adversaries. A military action against a terror group while justifiable loses its moral authority when the majority of the people dying are innocent civilians. And a third of the dead are children.

      Gaza is a full blown case of human tragedy and it is a disaster. This huge infrastructural damage and the economic damage is sure to if not kill but definitely paralyse the frail economy.

      But a ceasefire will not solve the problem — the question is how would Hamas and its backers Iran react to a ceasefire? After the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, the Hezbollah Leadership couple of months after the conflict was over said ” they would not have started the conflict if they knew the destruction it would bring”. That was in response to the growing criticism within Lebanese communities about Hezbollah action.

      However, the situation in Gaza is far more complex and the world cannot idly stand by. There is a strong case for a national Palestinian Unity Government that unifies the two parts. Irrespective of whoever takes over from Ohmert must be made to understand that illegal settlments need to go and no encraochement would be allowed.

      An East Timor model of transition could be established. It wasn’t without hiccups but the East Timor model saw the UN operate in the manner it was envisioned. And, it saved a lot of bloodshed while at the sametime helping a new state survive.

      Maybe there is some hope? But would the actors on the stage seize this opportunity or are we going to be stuck with rhetoric and good-bad narratives that takes us nowhere but backwards. Its time to stop punishing people for their fathers’ sins and end this cycle of destruction and ill feeling.

      **************************************

      Jai/Katy/Refresh

      For every 1 hermes and his fellow bigots there are usually 3 of you on this site. Usually the 3 on the progressive side have more intellect and can articulate their position far better.

      So we should not be too worried about this site? And as we all know, everytime something like this happens, even before moderators get a chance the regulars usually put the offender on defensive immediately — just like you guys have done.

      I wonder if anyone of these people would at least one of the guts to come out and apologise for their behaviour? Well that may be asking too much.

    16. platinum786 — on 16th January, 2009 at 12:29 pm  

      Good on them, for showing again that the actions of Israel are not the actions of Judaism, rather those of right wing, heartless so and so’s.

    17. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 12:47 pm  

      Jai’s comment #11 is spot on, that’s how I judge whether to delete (in part).

    18. hermes — on 16th January, 2009 at 2:41 pm  

      Sorry everyone, but I am sooooo angry about Gaza. And I realise now that making comments about ‘jews’ etc, I only let people like Katy off the hook from answering the real question. How can any jews defend what is being done in their name by their country?

      Hope this doesn’t get deleted…surely it is reasonable

    19. Jai — on 16th January, 2009 at 2:53 pm  

      Shamit,

      I wonder if anyone of these people would at least one of the guts to come out and apologise for their behaviour?

      I’ve wondered about the same thing. However, it would only be constructive if the apology was sincere, and not a political manouevre designed to lull the recipients into a false sense of security and/or mask the protagonist’s real stance and intentions.

    20. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 3:07 pm  

      And I realise now that making comments about ‘jews’ etc

      … you’re subjecting Jews to exactly the same sort of collective responsibility that you don’t think Palestinians should be subjected to? Oh. Oh, that wasn’t what you were going to say. Forgive me if I’m not convinced by your “apology”. And forgive me if I don’t wait around to ask what the fuck “people like Katy” is supposed to mean.

    21. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 3:09 pm  

      Katy is at home here.

      I am glad that you want me to feel that way, Refresh, but if you think that any of PP’s dwindling band of Jewish commenters feels remotely at home on this site at the moment I’m afraid you are sorely mistaken.

    22. persephone — on 16th January, 2009 at 3:10 pm  

      “I only let people like Katy off the hook from answering the real question. How can any jews defend what is being done in their name by their country?”

      Unless Israel contacted all jews around the world & asked for them to personally sign off to proceed with the military action its hardly relevant to say it is being done in anyone’s name.

      And is it solely jewishness in itself that puts a person, what you term it, ON the hook?

    23. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 3:14 pm  

      I wonder if anyone still thinks that Rumbold’s post about the difference between the Jewish community and the State of Israel wasn’t necessary.

    24. Shamit — on 16th January, 2009 at 3:35 pm  

      Hermes,

      Jai just wrote “political manouevre designed to lull the recipients into a false sense of security and/or mask the protagonist’s real stance and intentions.”

      You can understand why people might find it tad difficult to give you the benefit of doubt in this instance. Especially with phrases such as “people like Katy” make us wonder.

      As to your question — I thought actions are being taken in the name of the State of Israel; I fail to see any reasoning that makes British Jews culpable for decisions made by the Israeli cabinet.

      another small point - Britain is the home of British Jews and its their country. So I fail to see just by sharing a religious identity how one country far away becomes the consequential embodiment of the thinking of British citizens. Well you already know that -

      Then why the quip “people like Katy” or “…by their country”

    25. hermes — on 16th January, 2009 at 3:59 pm  

      Oh FFS, ‘people like Katy’ was meant to refer to those who constantly leap to the defence of Israeli Nazism. Unlike people like this:

      ‘Israel’s claim that many of the Palestinian victims were militants “was the reply of the Nazi,” he said, adding: “I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.”

      The speaker, by the way, is Gerald Kaufman, also anotheer jew, but perhaps a more enlightened one.

    26. marvin — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:07 pm  

      via HP, ELizabeth Wurtzel, excellent author of Prozac Nation as an article at CIF Standing against a tide of hatred

      Many of these ‘protestors’ who have come out of the wood works have been silent on every other massacre, ongoing starvations and oppressions around the world right now, in order to bash these ‘Nazi’ like people. You know the ones SE, P786, Hermes refers to.

      The speaker, by the way, is Gerald Kaufman, also anotheer jew, but perhaps a more enlightened one.

      Yes, very, um enlightened. Here he is, smiling with terrorist leader, Yasser Arafat (a hero for you though, I’m sure)

    27. hermes — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:19 pm  

      Marvin,I started protesting against injustice when I was 17 back in 1968 - against the American slaughter in Vietnam and have not stopped since to denounce every violation of human rights anywhere. And yes Gerald Kaufman has made some sane comments on this current violation.

      You are a complete fuckwit for thinking that to be photographed, smiling, with Yasser Arafat is somehow a crime. Both the Israeli prime minister and the President of US have been photographed smiling with Arafat. And yes, Arafat was a hero to his people, a freedom fighter whose reputation lives on in the heart of all who love freedom and justice.

    28. Sid — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:24 pm  

      I thought Arafat wasn’t a “terrorist” - after all, he did sign a treaty with Shimon Peres, brokered by Clinton, I seem to remember. But you just can’t tell nowadays can you?

      I think marvin has just exposed his own brand of “Every Arab in a yashmak is a terrorist” prejudice - just as “creepy, dark, ancient and insidious” as antisemitism - as Wurtzel puts it. Not that I’m surprised to see it in the least.

    29. marvin — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:26 pm  

      Yasser Arafat, for all those who love justice and freedom. Arafats history of justice and freedom:

      * Jan. 1, 1965: Fatah’s first terror attack in Israel. (Other Palestinian armed groups had carried out many other terror attacks before this, however.)
      * July 5, 1965: Fatah plant explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.
      * 1965-67: A wave of Fatah bomb attacks target Israeli villages, water pipes, railroads. Homes are destroyed and Israelis are killed.
      * Feb. 21, 1970: SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, is bombed by the PLO group PFLP in mid-flight, killing 47.
      * May 21, 1970 PLO Shooting a Bazooka to the School bus of Moshav Avivim 10 kids plus 2 adult died, 24 wounded.
      * Sept. 6, 1970: TWA, Pan Am, and BOAC airplanes are hijacked by the PLO.
      * September 1970: The PLO attack Jordanian targets, then flee to Lebanon.
      * Sept. 5, 1972: 11 Israeli athletes killed at the Munich Olympics by the PLO.
      * March 1, 1973: Palestinian terrorists take over Saudi embassy in Khartoum and murder the United States’ ambassador to Sudan, Cleo Noel and others.
      * April 11, 1974: 18 residents of Kiryat Shmona in northern Israel are killed in their apartment building by the PLO who infiltrated from Lebanon.
      * May 15, 1974: A school in Ma’alot is attacked by Palestinian terrorists who infiltrated from Lebanon. 26 Israelis, including many children, were killed.

      What a guy.

    30. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:28 pm  

      Katy,

      The best we can do is be around to recognise the bigotry and challenge it.

      I hope its enough to know that in the early days I was told by Sunny, no less, to get back to Al Qaeda. That was at a time Sunny knew even less than he does now.
      And it was during a period when anti-muslim bigotry was de riguer. Even today that has not gone away, I often see comments which are inflammatory but they are worth seeing as they are a measure of where we are and how far we have to travel.

      The journey is not an easy one, but it needs to be taken if we are to come out the other side sane. One thing is assured, there is a middle-ground which is ours to expand and hold.

      I have no interest in seeing people who pass bigotted remarks and then disappear. However I have a great deal of interest in people who may come here bigotted but leave wiser by the experience. Or better still remain to make a positive contribution.

    31. marvin — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:30 pm  

      Shit Sid, would that be the same Bill Clinton who invited over Gerry Adams, for a cosy chat? Yes, the Clinton administration dealt with terrorists. Sometimes it can work. Doesn’t make them good people, not to their intended innocent victims, at any rate.

    32. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:30 pm  

      Oh FFS, ‘people like Katy’ was meant to refer to those who constantly leap to the defence of Israeli Nazism.

      “For fuck’s sake” is right. You’re the one who weakened your own position by resorting to racism so stop whinging. And instead of just saying “people like Katy”, why don’t you sod off and find a quote from one of my comments that shows me “leaping to the defence of Israeli Nazism”?

    33. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:32 pm  

      And yes Gerald Kaufman has made some sane comments on this current violation.

      Oh, yes, of course you’ve got your pet Jews, people like you always do. The “human” ones, right? The exceptions that prove the rule about those shitty murdering Jews people like you like to rant about? I’m sure you don’t mean them when you’re ranting about “Jewboys”. It’s the other Jewboys you mean.

    34. marvin — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

      I think you’ve just exposed your prejudice that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is an arab hating racist. I think every arab in a yashmak is a racist, do I? Evidence?

    35. Shamit — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:35 pm  

      Don’t think anyone here is backing Hamas. And getting caught up in what happened two decades ago would just help each party more combative towards the other.

      Sadly, this does not secure the saftey of Israeli citizens and niether do they help achieve the aspirations of the Palestinian people. So whats the big fucking point of having these pointless back and forth?

    36. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:46 pm  

      Marvin, I have absolutely no time whatsoever for people who will use underhand tactics like a photo with Arafat for denigrating a firm and rationally held view.

      No doubt when the time comes you will do the same to Abbas as you did to Arafat. No doubt.

      I believe Kaufman is a much better friend to Israel than you will ever be. Maybe in time you will see.

      I have seen people dancing in the streets of New York as the bombs drop on Gaza; I’ve seen happy sightseers sitting atop the Hill of Shame picnicking watching ‘their boys’ drop artillery and bombs and missiles on a people Netanyahu wants driven into the sea. And of mothers who excuse the killings of future terrorists. That mindset has to change and you should be playing a part in it. Instead you are busy telling us most of the dead are terrorists.

      The narrative the state of Israel creates and you support is self-defeating. As I have said before the Palestinians should never have left their homes in 1948; and they will most certainly not leave this time.

      And for what its worth, telling us that Palestinians in Gaza life expectancy is better than that of Glaswegians is pretty sick and presents you to the world as a truly damaged individual.

    37. SE — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:51 pm  

      @DavidT:
      She’s already a member as seen by the comments here.

    38. marvin — on 16th January, 2009 at 4:55 pm  

      And for what its worth, telling us that Palestinians in Gaza life expectancy is better than that of Glaswegians is pretty sick and presents you to the world as a truly damaged individual.

      Why, when it’s true? People like you are lie to further your agenda. Common lies

      LIES: The Palestinians are starved by the Israelis, they are the poorest, the most destitute, the most over crowded in the world> It is not a concentration camp. It is not the Warsaw ghetto.

      Zero Palestinians have died from starvation, Life expectancy is comparable to Glasgow, The Palestinians received one of the highest foreign aid contribution of anywhere, many places are more densely populated - including Greater London.

      Stick facts. There’s plenty to criticise Israel and feel injustice about. No need to make it up though.

      Yasser Arafat killed innocent people on purpose. In most definitions that makes him terrorist. I understand though, that for people like you that makes him a ‘freedom fighter’.

      The real mystery to me is why lie, when there’s seem to be an abundance of facts that support that Palestinian cause?

    39. Sid — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:07 pm  

      Marvin, Yasser Arafat did kill innocent people and so did Gerry Adams’ people. So did Menachem Begin when he was involved with Irgun and, if you’re going to be pedagogic, so did Nelson Mandela.

      There are some horribly freakish coincidences and historical accidents that cause people to select violent, extremist ideologies to represent them. I don’t ever want that to happen to any people but when it does happen, you have no choice but to listen. I’m no friend of Hamas, but they were selected by democratic mandate to represent the Palestinians.

      At some point Israel and its supporters like you, are going to have to accept that unfortunate fact instead of using this accident as a pretext to bomb the Palestinian people off the face of the earth.

    40. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:09 pm  

      Marvin, no lies. Just observations on your mindset.

      Presenting the life expectancy of Gaza Palestinians as a positive result of Israeli policy given their power generation capacity and rudimentary sewage system has been bombed before and of course the longstanding blockade so they could be put on a ‘diet’.

      Question is were you dancing in the streets? I suspect you would be one of the few joining those others on the Hill of Shame if you got the chance.

    41. fug — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:14 pm  

      Kaufman isnt a ‘pet’. People like him remind me of the future and give me confidence that the human race will make it a few iterations more. I wish more people in the house of commons would do this, david davis already did it. there are too many people more concerned with gaining political position.

      Its really disgusting when people put intentions and their own political visions into people who were killed unjustly to score political blood capital and claim some righteous inheritance. It something i hope i never fall in the trap of doing. He is saying ‘Hands of my grandmother’s memory’.

      Kudos to him.

    42. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:16 pm  

      fug, my point was more directed at Hermes, in the sense that I’ve never met an antisemite who couldn’t trot out some Jew who in their opinion rose above the rest of us filthy, money-grabbing, media-controlling murderers. I don’t have anything against Kaufman.

    43. Refresh — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:18 pm  

      Hermes

      ‘Oh, yes, of course you’ve got your pet Jews, people like you always do. The “human” ones, right? The exceptions that prove the rule about those shitty murdering Jews people like you like to rant about? I’m sure you don’t mean them when you’re ranting about “Jewboys”. It’s the other Jewboys you mean.’

      You asked for that!

    44. fug — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:37 pm  

      Independant of hermes. and remember the focus is dusgust at israel, not who it has angered. …

      Is jewboy allowed in inter-jewish chat only. (like paki, house-negro, pindu, coconut…).

      the question im asking i think is, are jews brown?

      my first guess is ‘depends’, then ‘no’.

    45. Ms_Xtreme — on 16th January, 2009 at 5:58 pm  

      I went to an awesome inter-faith dialogue session today. Majority of the participants were Jewish or Christian - majority being Christians. Its refreshing to hear people’s take on how religious misconceptions is steering the fighting in Gaza.

      Anyways - how come none of the Muslims have chained themselves up to embassies in protest?

      my first guess is ‘depends’, then ‘no’.

      Most likely no. Only because you have to be born a Jew to be recognized as one, and conversion into Judaism is non-existent.

    46. fug — on 16th January, 2009 at 6:09 pm  

      if we chain ourselves to israeli embassies we are likely to be shot!

      a lot of what goes

      Gandhi on the Jews and Palestine 1938.
      http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-gandhi170903.htm

    47. Don — on 16th January, 2009 at 6:23 pm  

      if we chain ourselves to israeli embassies we are likely to be shot!

      Where? UK? US? Really?

    48. The Dude — on 16th January, 2009 at 6:41 pm  

      Jews in LA chain themselves in protest of Israel’s offensive in Gaza. Fair comment. My question. Are they exceptions to the rule or peacenik uncle toms?

      Now I’ve got no problem with Gerald Kaufman as a MP or a Jew but when I see other Jews dismissing his argument not with reason but bile, then I have to wonder what is REALLY going on. BTW: I’ve actually met and spoken with two well known “terrorists” so I reckon I’m one of the Jew bashing bastards who should be roasting in hell.

      As for Katy not having anything against Mr Kaufman, I beg to differ.

    49. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:18 pm  

      Oh my GOD, I am so fucking sick of you people putting words in my mouth. Dude, for your information when I say I have nothing against Kaufman that’s what I mean. But go ahead. You have a punt at me. Don’t worry about the blatant antisemitic shit that gets thrown at me on this site every time I log on. You have a go at me for responding to it, why don’t you? Join the club! Knock yourself out!

    50. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:21 pm  

      Perhaps what you didn’t see, Dude, was Hermes saying “Why don’t you two Jewboys chain yourself to an embassy to prove that you’re human” to bananabrain and someone else. It’s been deleted. But I don’t suppose you’d bother to ask why I got angry, would you? No, you just jump the fuck in and take a pop at me - just like you do whenever I post on here, which so help me god is not going to happen again, because I have HAD IT with the dickheads who infest this site and victimise me for no fucking reason.

    51. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:28 pm  

      Oh my GOD, I am so fucking sick of you people putting words in my mouth.

      This is getting too painful to watch. Katy, please take a step back, take a breather (perhaps make some cardamom ice cream :D ), it’s not worth getting so riled up over.

    52. chairwoman — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:33 pm  

      it’s not worth getting so riled up over.

      You reckon?

    53. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:38 pm  

      I mean them, they’re baiting. It’s not worth it as much as it’s an understandable temptation…

    54. chairwoman — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:47 pm  

      There are certain ‘Picklers’ who can’t wait to use antisemitic language and insults on this site, whether you delete them or not, they’re there.

      These people are the first to play the race card themselves, yet think it’s ok to to insult the integrity of anyone Jewish who disagrees with them, frequently in terms which I am sure contravenes the Race Relations Act.

      Israel and Hamas are at war. Fact. There is nothing that diaspora Jews, or Palestinians can do to influence the elected Governments of countries in which they have no vote.

      Obviously both sides are partisan. It would be extremely strange if that were not the case. I support the existence of the State of Israel. I always will. It does not mean that I support every action of a government that I cannot vote for, in a country of which I am not a citizen.

      Jews have always been in the forefront of the fight against racism. What is happening in Gaza is no more racist than any other war between two countries. The worst insult made by a Jewish Pickler is ‘antisemite’.

      The same cannot be said for others.

    55. The Dude — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:50 pm  

      Katy

      I didn’t put the words on your mouth. Even you would agree, we’re just not that close. No, I didn’t put the word in your mouth, you did!

      It was you who said in response to hermes’s take on Gerald Kaufman’s speech:

      “Oh, yes, of course you’ve got your pet Jews, people like you always do. The “human” ones, right? The exceptions that prove the rule about those shitty murdering Jews people like you like to rant about?”

      Well, Katy, I’ve lived my entire life with white people playing that game with me and my community. You know what I mean, the good, Christian man of colour. The exception that prove the rule about those thieving, gang-banging, drug dealing niggers that nice people like you and me don’t like to talk about.

      What really grated me about your post was your total failure to deal with what Gerald Kaufman actually said and his argument. Mind you, you’re in good company. Over at Harry’s Place out of about 30 posts, I only read 1 which remotely dealt with the argument itself. Most, just resorted to calling Mr Kaufman silly names.

    56. Don — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:53 pm  

      Katy,

      Really, the rest of are also pissed off by that sort of thing. It isn’t being tolerated by admin, but you expect an influx of newcomers at times like these. They are challenged or deleted as quickly as is manageable. I’ve checked this site four or five times today, but I missed Hermes’ comment, so I guess it was deleted quickly.

      Having been made aware of it, I now regard Hermes as a worthless bigot, replacing my previous assessment of ‘seriously iffy’.

    57. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:54 pm  

      Chairwoman, I’m talking about for the moment, not disengaging generally…just think it’s a good idea to step back every now and then, take a breath etc.

    58. chairwoman — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:56 pm  

      The Dude - I don’t like Gerald Kaufman.

      Leaving aside his appalling dress sense, he has always been a second rate politician, and was a strong supporter of Israel until he he took a long hard look at the make-up of his Yorkshire constituency, and decided to change sides.

      I despise him, not for the statement he made, but because I am sure that he made it, and others similar, to cover his backside.

    59. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:56 pm  

      It wasn’t about what Gerald Kaufman thought. It was about the “Some of my best friends are Jews/blacks/Asians” shit that racists trot out when they’re called out. It was about Hermes ranting about “jewboys” and then going “oh but I think Gerald Kaufman’s great”, as if that excuses him using racist language. You didn’t actually get what I was talking about. It could have been Gerald Kaufman or Noam Chomsky, whose name is thrown around in the same way. Both of these men are Jews just like me and shitty antisemites like Hermes shouldn’t kid themselves that Gerald Kaufman would be any more impressed with their nasty racism than I am.

      So you were putting words in my mouth, because you are sitting there telling me that I meant something that I did not mean OR SAY, and you refuse to listen to me when I point you to what actually WAS said and what the context was.

      And I have noticed that you sit here without blinking or criticising whilst people come out with the most appalling racist or antisemitic claptrap and then when I respond you immediately dive in, twist what I say to ludicrous proportions, and then have a pop at me. And it is not on.

    60. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:57 pm  

      It isn’t being tolerated by admin, but you expect an influx of newcomers at times like these.

      We’ve had a 100% rise in the number of daily readers in the last couple weeks. Incredible really but with it comes the idiocy of certain new commenters…

    61. The Dude — on 16th January, 2009 at 7:59 pm  

      Katy

      Frankly I don’t give a flying fuck about Hermes. But that doesn’t mean I will instantly dismiss EVERYTHING he says because he is a racist fuckwit. Sometimes, just sometimes even he talks sense. The trick is to be clued up enough to sort out the shit from the shine. What he said about Mr Kaufman’s speech was such a moment. You dismissed it. I couldn’t!

    62. The Dude — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:01 pm  

      Alas chairwoman proves my point….again.

    63. Katy Newton — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:01 pm  

      OK. You either can’t understand what I said or you won’t understand what I said, and I really don’t care which one it is.

    64. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:03 pm  

      I despise him, not for the statement he made, but because I am sure that he made it, and others similar, to cover his backside.

      He’s a politician, all politicians are responsive to their constituents. Votes mean power.

    65. chairwoman — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:05 pm  

      What Katy said.

    66. chairwoman — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:06 pm  

      Leon. Quite.

      Just don’t hold him up as a moral example.

    67. The Dude — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:06 pm  

      Katy

      You’re being played. Take control of your own strings and let others hang themselves with theirs. That’s a warning to you Hermes. Listen up, motherfucker. The Dude is watching.

    68. Leon — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:09 pm  

      Just don’t hold him up as a moral example.

      Well, his point can be well made even if he’s not up to scratch on the scale of morality we’d like to see a politician maintain.

    69. Don — on 16th January, 2009 at 8:20 pm  

      CW,

      There are certain ‘Picklers’ who can’t wait to use antisemitic language and insults on this site…

      There is no clear definition of ‘Picklers’. It certainly isn’t just those whose name is over the shop, nor does it include everyone who drops by.

      My definition is a long-ish list that includes you and me, Katy and Refresh, Jai and Douglas, Sonia, Sofia and Kulvinder, Kismet, Vikrant, Asif, Soru, Ravi and a few more. It’s subjective and I can’t think of a workable definition. Maybe something like ‘People one has come to trust as being honest in their expression and decent in their intent, however mistaken in their analysis.’

      It certainly doesn’t include anyone using anti-semitic insults. Do we have the same mental list?

      The Dude,

      You are now simply being a pain in the arse.

    70. fug — on 16th January, 2009 at 11:17 pm  

      48
      far be it for me to disuade expressions against israel, you wouldnt believe how much ive had to disuade people in the past few weeks.

      Lets get back to basics, that young foolish bro from bedford who dressed up in a bomber vest got really badly punished and made an example of. After Abdul Kahar and strings of indisrciminate arrest and tarnishing of reputations, one can conclue that the life and dignity of a muslim in the uk in the cross hairs of security agencies is at a local minimum.

      similarly for ISM activities in the occupied zone. even rachel corrie fell prey to their callous regard for humans who arent them.

    71. Muhamad — on 17th January, 2009 at 3:06 am  

      chairwoman @ 59

      “Leaving aside his appalling dress sense, he has always been a second rate politician, and was a strong supporter of Israel until he he took a long hard look at the make-up of his Yorkshire constituency, and decided to change sides.

      I despise him, not for the statement he made, but because I am sure that he made it, and others similar, to cover his backside.”

      LOL.

      The righteous admin can belatedly (I wonder why?) delete the name calling and anti-Semitic shite but it isn’t going to endear people to visit this site. A commenter calling someone a ‘jewboy’ or an admin/moderator calling someone a ‘pathetic wanker’ isn’t going to make someone recommend PP to anybody. I get the impression that the mods possibly don’t give a flying fig if people come or go.

    72. Leon — on 17th January, 2009 at 3:38 am  

      Actually we do, but we’re not going to put up with racist turds or trolls undermining the community we’ve all built here (and by we I mean everyone who writes and those who comment below the line who’s actively returned to discuss and debate).

      I wouldn’t worry about who we ‘endear’ to visit the site, our traffic is doing well enough.

    73. El Cid — on 17th January, 2009 at 12:50 pm  

      “Some of my best friends are Jews/blacks/Asians (whomever, it doesn’t really matter)” shit that racists trot out when they’re called out.”

      Not always Kate. It’s not that simple. I mean it’s true to a great extent. But it depends on the circumstances. I have made the very same argument myself many times in the past, mainly because I sensed a cosmetic tokenism.

      However, sometimes, when confronted by people who have grown up in a public school or monoethnic suburban bubble and who pontificate about the wider world, it is sometimes necessary to show up their abstract thinking for what it is by highlighting how they might just — just might, I give you — be on the outside looking in.

      Before anyone mentions the word “chip” or “classism”, I would just like to point out that I am most definitely middle class.
      Racism is about intent. It is about hate. Everything else is piffle.

    74. El Cid — on 17th January, 2009 at 1:06 pm  

      ‘People one has come to trust as being honest in their expression and decent in their intent, however mistaken in their analysis.’

      Don, I think others fit this category, even if their language might seem a little aggressive on the outside. That includes The Dude. People have different upbringings you know. We all bring something to the table. Your list conspicuously does not include blokier types. Stop being so anti-’real man’. Oooh, you bitch. :)

    75. Don — on 17th January, 2009 at 1:09 pm  

      El Cid,

      Wasn’t meant to be comprehensive.

    76. Ravi Naik — on 17th January, 2009 at 3:16 pm  

      And I have noticed that you sit here without blinking or criticising whilst people come out with the most appalling racist or antisemitic claptrap

      I also read Hermes comment, and I completely ignored it. In fact, I tend to ignore anti-Asian, anti-semitic and anti-Islamic rants, as I expect the moderators to remove it. Otherwise, we will continue to allow inbreds and bigots to hijack these threads. These people say things in extremely bad-faith - one can almost feel the glee in #7.

      I also think that PP is very tolerant blog, and I do not accept the idea that this is an anti-Semitic place, or that people here condone such language. To characterise PP based on what a few anonymous people say is just not fair.

    77. El Cid — on 17th January, 2009 at 3:36 pm  

      “Is jewboy allowed in inter-jewish chat only. (like paki, house-negro, pindu, coconut…).

      the question im asking i think is, are jews brown?

      my first guess is ‘depends’, then ‘no’.”

      WTF? What the fuck is this comment about?

    78. Don — on 17th January, 2009 at 4:29 pm  

      El Cid,

      That comment seems to have been binned fairly briskly.

      Rule of thumb, if you think ‘jewboy’ is an acceptable part of discourse, then, in the words of Bob, “You’re in the wrong place, my friend. You better leave”

    79. chairwoman — on 17th January, 2009 at 4:39 pm  

      “Is jewboy allowed in inter-jewish chat only. (like paki, house-negro, pindu, coconut…).

      the question im asking i think is, are jews brown?

      my first guess is ‘depends’, then ‘no’.

      The answers are, no, and some.

      Muhamad - Good man.

      El Cid - Katy could honestly have said ‘Some of my best friends are Spanish’ when she was littl, as the only other family with children her age on our block lived three doors away, and came from Madrid.

    80. El Cid — on 17th January, 2009 at 4:43 pm  

      I know it has. But what is fug getting at? Are insults against white people ok? This whole obsession with brownness is on dodgy ground.
      For example, there were comments left on an earlier slumdog thread that I found a little annoying, but I didn’t say anything at the time. Sure, the film is overhyped. I think it’s an 8 out of 10. That’s it. But some people were having a pop at the director for being “white” when what they really meant was “western”.
      What the fuck does Danny Boyle’s whiteness got to do with it? Would it have made a difference if Spike Lee, say, had made the film?

    81. El Cid — on 17th January, 2009 at 4:47 pm  

      Exactly. Thank you. It’s a valid observation but also a little bit hackneyed.

    82. Don — on 17th January, 2009 at 4:58 pm  

      But what is fug getting at?

      A question for the ages. Until we discover the Rosseta Stone of Fug, it’s just best guess.

    83. Shamit — on 17th January, 2009 at 5:15 pm  

      I wonder if anyone recently bothered to look at the original article that inspired this thread. It exemplifies the best ideals of the common bond of humanity that we all share.

      It also shows that being right or moral righteousness is not a monopoly of any one race, religion or nationality. Most people judge others based on an individual`s abilities and character and not much else. But the vast majority are held hostage by the idiotic minority that always looks for a them & us situation. This thread is a microcosm to some extent of the wider world we live in.

      There were some genuine discussions and even some explored ideas on how we could move beyond the present conflict — posing questions that beg serious answers and a willingness to view issues with a broader perspective and pragmatism. But we end up dealing with racist language and behaviour. And the thread is wasted. Its not jut this one there are many recent examples.

      Their fear of having to live and think out of their ideological and value closets makes them look stupid and resulting actions display vain false arrogance.

      But that does not make PP a bad place to be — those idiots are far outnumbered by logical people with good ideas, wit and very high intellect. And, I echo Ravi and Don that the editorial team does their best to deal with them.

    84. El Cid — on 17th January, 2009 at 8:59 pm  

      PP is cool.

    85. Katy Newton — on 18th January, 2009 at 12:32 pm  

      To characterise PP based on what a few anonymous people say is just not fair.

      I directed the comment you quote at the Dude, not Picklers in general.

      One thing that would really help reasoned debate on this site is if people read other people’s comments properly. I seem to be accused of saying things that I clearly am not saying quite a lot at the moment. I am getting quite fed up with it.

    86. Jai — on 18th January, 2009 at 1:03 pm  

      Katy,

      It’s an unfortunate fact of life that sometimes people know exactly what you’re saying. They just pretend not to and/or twist your words & intentions because they believe it’s in their own best interests to do so.

      Or, they’re so lost in the fog of their cognitive dissonance and their own agendas that they’re psychologically unable to hear what you’re actually saying anyway.

    87. chairwoman — on 18th January, 2009 at 1:11 pm  

      ‘It’s an unfortunate fact of life that sometimes people know exactly what you’re saying. They just pretend not to and/or twist your words & intentions because they believe it’s in their own best interests to do so.

      Or, they’re so lost in the fog of their cognitive dissonance and their own agendas that they’re psychologically unable to hear what you’re actually saying anyway.’

      It’s like looking at a menu, and not being able to decide because you like two things equally!

    88. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2009 at 1:27 pm  

      Shamit @ 84,

      Couldn’t agree more with you. Well said!

    89. Shamit — on 18th January, 2009 at 8:41 pm  

      Thanks Douglas. But I personally like Jai’s

      “they’re so lost in the fog of their cognitive dissonance and their own agendas that they’re psychologically unable to hear what you’re actually saying anyway.”

    90. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2009 at 9:23 pm  

      Well Shamit, I’m not as bright as Jai.

      And I agree with him too.

      Still, your post was pretty good, I’d have thought.

      Though you have to admire anyone that says ‘cognitive dissonance’ don’t you?

      My current favourite word is prelapsarian.

    91. Shamit — on 18th January, 2009 at 9:28 pm  

      Douglas,

      I have a lot of respect for your intellectual capital and I always read your views carefully and I do the same with most of the regulars except for people like Platinum 786 and the rest of the idiots.

      But I agree Jai is very clever and he has got wit to match his eloquence which makes it even more interesting to read.

      Thank you once again.

    92. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2009 at 9:56 pm  

      Shamit,

      I was only joshing with you.

      Though I am touched that you think I have any intellectual capital, whatever.

      No-one else does.

      Seriously, I do think yours is a voice that is well worth hearing around here. You talk an enormous amount of sense. I thought your post at 84 was a tour de force, so I did.

      So, there you go.

    93. Ravi Naik — on 18th January, 2009 at 10:33 pm  

      Katy, when I said (#77): I also think that PP is very tolerant blog, and I do not accept the idea that this is an anti-Semitic place, or that people here condone such language. To characterise PP based on what a few anonymous people say is just not fair.

      I was also responding to what you said earlier (#21):

      “I am glad that you want me to feel that way, Refresh, but if you think that any of PP’s dwindling band of Jewish commenters feels remotely at home on this site at the moment I’m afraid you are sorely mistaken.”

      I understood that you were implying that PP is hostile to Jewish commentators. But obviously the fog of my
      cognitive dissonance might be playing a trick on me. :)

    94. Katy Newton — on 18th January, 2009 at 10:39 pm  

      I think that was fairly obviously a reference to the antisemitic trolls that were latching on to me whenever I posted. The moderators aren’t around all the time and what happens is, they aren’t there, I get trolled, I say something, the troll then gets deleted and I look like I’m talking to thin air. The fact is that over the last few weeks this has not been a very pleasant place to be for Jewish commenters. That isn’t the fault of anyone who runs the site.

    95. Jai — on 19th January, 2009 at 11:29 am  

      Shamit & Douglas,

      Well Shamit, I’m not as bright as Jai…..And I agree with him too.

      But I agree Jai is very clever and he has got wit to match his eloquence which makes it even more interesting to read.

      That’s very kind of you, guys, thank you very much. I really enjoy reading your contributions to PP too.

      ****************************

      Katy,

      I can understand how it must be a pretty nasty experience for you to be on the receiving end of that kind of bile so frequently, especially considering the bigotry that Jewish people have historically had to deal with in this part of the world; there is a vicious streak in human nature which results in a lot of “bandwagon jumping” if an individual or a particular group are identified as a viable target for bullying. All I can say is that, as Shamit, Don and Ravi have already mentioned, despite current appearances and the efforts of some semi-regular commenters I don’t think PP is an inherently anti-semitic website, and hopefully you haven’t missed the efforts of some of us to hit back at commenters who have made remarks along those bigotted lines if we’ve been around at the time.

      I should also stress that, again despite appearances, aggressive antisemitism isn’t intrinsic to “Asian culture” either, particularly for those of us who are originally from an Indian background. India itself isn’t exactly known for being a hostile environment for Jews — the sheer number of visitors from Israel every year should give an indication of this — and neither do British Indians (especially the majority who are Hindu or Sikh) have any kind of prejudice towards Jews and/or Israel or any “vested interest” in promoting or supporting that kind of stance. I think it’s important to state this, not just to reassure you but also so that your own obviously negative experiences with some quarters of the Asian population (in this matter) don’t poison the well when it comes to your emotional response to (and perspective of) the rest of us en masse.

      I know I’ve said this before — and I’m getting some major deja vu here ! — but I think tht your intelligent, witty and humane presence makes a huge difference to the vibe on PP and I’m sure that you’d be greatly missed if you decided to walk out of the party. If things are getting a bit too nasty for you then maybe it might be a good idea to temporarily take some time out; there’s no reason why you should let a website ruin your mood and peace of mind in your real life, for God’s sake. The other option is, of course, to fight fire with fire and hit back twice as hard in order to shut down the bullies.

      It depends on whatever works best for you, but either way, I believe that you (and Chairwoman, for that matter) are valued commenters on PP and you shouldn’t let the jerks get to you too much. Sometimes people like to push other folk’s buttons because of their own neuroses and obsessions, so it’s important to be aware of that and deal with it accordingly.

    96. Refresh — on 19th January, 2009 at 1:02 pm  

      The irony is that by using offensive and personal language, we’ve lost the message of the original post: That there are jewish groups who view Israel’s actions with horror and took action to show it was not in their name.

      I am of the view that it will be people within Israel and supporters of the Israeli State that will generate the momentum to deliver a final settlement; just as it will be the american people who will restrain the American State.

      As we expect of Hamas, and any future grouping that seeks to resist the occupation, we must also turn our attention to the far-right groups in Israel who go out of their way to fight for Eretz Israel. They must be faced down and defeated. They are always only ever an election away from having a finger on the button. And they are not above the assasination of their own let alone massacring people they want the world to view as sub-human. Consider that there has only ever been one Israeli leader to date who could have delivered a lasting settlement with the Palestinians - Yitzak Rabin. He had the momentum and support.

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