The Blood-Stained Monster Enters Gaza

(Jan 12, 2009)
The real aim is to end the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. The Hamas movement won the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip in 2006. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population – not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun and the Stern Group in the past – but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.
Barak cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: “Mama! Mama!”

Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it. Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.

I meant that the UN seemed to be getting quite a bit of the incoming!

If I were the UN, I’d be starting to wonder who the IDF were actually fighting.

perhaps asking those questions might actually be a good idea. the things i have read and from what i know from talking to people involved in the situation i know the soldiers are well aware and under orders to avoid civilian casualties if at all possible. i certainly think the IDF should be letting journalists into gaza.

b’shalom

bananabrain

If I were the UN, I’d be starting to wonder who the IDF were actually fighting.

There is no way that either you or I have the faintest idea what is going on. Folk will make up their own minds, based on their pre-existing prejudices, as to the truth of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7828536.stm

Who knows? And so on, and so on.

Every day another talking point. Every day another day away from a resolution.

go on, call me an apologist. tell me to feck off. that’ll help.

b’shalom

bananabrain

You are not getting away with that. What I pointed to was three seperate surveys, not one, and none of them were done by sitting in an office in London.

There are three surveys listed there.

1. Lancet 1 and 2 – Undertaken by medical folk on the ground in Iraq supervised by John Hopkins Universities epidemiology department.

2. Opinion Research Business – Undertaken by IAACSS (Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies) is a polling/ research company established in Iraq in 2003 and which has a network of interviewers covering all regions of the country.)

3. IFHS – which is the Iraq Family Health Survey conducted for the WHO which shows circa 700,000 excess deaths as of Jan 2008. This is a derived figure by Tim Lambert.

—————————————————–

You were, like George Galloway, vehemently opposed to toppling Saddam, and like Galloway, quoting the highest possible figure provided by an organisation to ‘prove’ how right you were to oppose it.

Eh! No I wasn’t. Although I did think it would end up a complete utter mess. And that the timing was all wrong, what with having to sort out Afghanistan first. Etc, etc. You’ll be claiming I was shaking Saddam by the hand and saluting his indefatigability next!

This is the wrong thread.

About 151,000 Iraqi civilians were killed in bomb attacks and other violence in Iraq in the first three years after the invasion, according to the most comprehensive study yet into the number of fatalities.

The World Health Organisation (a bit more credible than some unheard of agency) (WHO) based its estimate on a survey of nearly 10,000 households, conducted jointly with the Iraqi Government. It said that the actual figure of violent deaths between March 2003 and June 2006 could be as high as 223,000 or as low as 104,000.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3165549.ece

You were, like George Galloway, vehemently opposed to toppling Saddam, and like Galloway, quoting the highest possible figure provided by an organisation to ‘prove’ how right you were to oppose it.

Forget it this is going nowhere You believe what you want.

You might want to consider this:

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/01/orb_revises_estimate_of_iraqi.php#more

before you take your arguement about death tolls in Iraq any further. Although the comment thread will give you some thin gruel to play with.

Just because you could shoot fish in a barrel, do you think you would be morally justified in doing so?

Please feel free to argue against the million dead. We’ll need to get a separate room. I’ll just say that even the Iraq Body Count doesn’t claim it’s captured all deaths and that the statistics of three, repeat three surveys all support the one million figure and not your ridiculously low one.

As Colin Powell said, ‘if you break it, you own it’, meaning that the Coalition was responsible for peace and security and didn’t deliver.

(Can I just come back one point, there is no evidence that one million Iraqis have died (this is wild conjecture by those vehemently against toppling Saddam). Iraq body count says 90,329 – 98,605 have been documented. You’ve only exaggerated by 10 times so not too far out. Also the vast majority of these deaths have been due to jihadis, militias and criminals killing innocent people.)

“Yeah same thing! ‘Freedom or death’ is just the same as saying we enjoy death! We don’t care, we’ll kill you AND us to get our paradise! Same!”

Yes, it is the same.

What the heck do you expect an unarmed – and lets face it undefended population – to do when they are having phosphour and cluster bombs dropped on them from F16s at 16,000 feet? And you have nowhere to go?

They can either wail and cry or they can stick a finger up at their killers. For ordinance is not that accurate, we know that. There is a fair to reasonable chance it will miss.

If I was under that hail of death I’d like to think I’d be that brave. Though I probably wouldn’t.

I am no apologist for Saddam Hussein, however I am no apologist for G W Bush either. On Bush’s watch circa one million Iraqis have died and four million displaced. What is it about ‘They made a Wasteland and called it Peace’ that you don’t understand?

And I am a nationalist, of the pacifist, lefty, liberal sort, right enough.

Also nobody stopped anyone from intervening in Somalia, or Rawanda, or the balkans or Iraq (the first time round) and you were welcome to intervene in the Iran Iraq war, and the soviet invasion of Afghanistan, even in Kashmir please.

You lot… interesting choice of words. The PR mask is slipping, take some time to re-arrange it.

#22 comrade, we do not know the true figures. ‘Palestinian sources’ always, without fail, um ‘overestimate’ their figures. Still, every innocent life lost is a tragedy, and could have been prevented. Hamas has ensured that Israeli maximises civilian casualties.

Fuck off Bananabrain @7: What reasoned debate do you need to excuse the bastard Zionists flattening a slum full of some of the poorest people in the world. You idiot apologist!

Oh, the irony. The primary reason for Palestinian poverty is irresponsible Palestinian leadership, their embezzlement, diversion of funds to terror, and failure to invest in infrastructure.

Donor disbursements to the Palestinians currently amount to approximately $1 billion per year or $310 per person ― one of the highest per capita rates in the history of foreign assistance according to The World Bank.

Here

You love life, we love death’. How is that different from “Give me Liberty, or give me Death!”

Yeah same thing! ‘Freedom or death’ is just the same as saying we enjoy death! We don’t care, we’ll kill you AND us to get our paradise! Same!

The blood bath that has been Iraq is a prime example of how low we can go.

Indeed. In two weeks, Saddam gassed around 200,000 Kurds. Now they have a chance of democracy. How terrible of ‘us’.

Military intervention? HAHAHA You lot are *always* against military intervention. You’re always against nationalism too. Except when it comes to the Palestinians.

The entire world has tried diplomacy, it has not worked, the only other way to stop the massacre is a military intervention yet the people who should be getting involved are sitting back and allowing Israel to get away with it.

I’ve argued until I’m blue in the face that the issue here is one of frustration and impotence. I think that analysis stands. Frustration breeds aggression, and alienation, and that is what you are seeing.

It is incredibly frustrating to see people I respect rationalise the death of children. It is unbelievable that Hamas refuses to discuss peace. It would be good if sensible voices prevailed, but they do not. And they rarely do. The blood bath that has been Iraq is a prime example of how low we can go.

Folk retreat into stereotyping the ‘other’.

Just one example to illustrate the point. Western commentators say that there is something alien about the chant ‘You love life, we love death’. How is that different from “Give me Liberty, or give me Death!” which was a battle cry of the American Revolution. They are both inviting annihilation rather than submission.

There are probably only a handful of people on this whole planet that could stop this. And they are certainly not listening to the likes of thee or me.

not only will I shed tears for the dead children of gaza …. but for the living. I will cry for the children of Israel as well and the millions of others who live in this world full of grownups who can’t learn to keep their mouths shut … or at least try to chose their words more carefully.

I don’t know what to do anymore … no one listens, no one

My name is Leanna. I am a survivor living in New York City. I am broadcasting on all blog frequencies. I will be at the South Street Seaport everyday at mid-day, when the sun is highest in the sky. If you are out there… if anyone is out there… I can provide food, I can provide shelter, I can provide security. If there’s anybody out there… anybody… please. You are not alone…… but fear I am ………