Gaza: having ‘profoundly unhealthy’ effect on UK Muslims?
Government Minister Shahid Malik believes the attack on Gaza has produced ‘immense anger’ amongst the UK’s Muslim population:
The Israeli onslaught in Gaza is having a “profoundly acute and unhealthy” effect on British Muslim communities and “patience is running out”, a government minister has said.
The justice minister, Shahid Malik, told the Guardian there was “immense anger” in British Muslim communities over developments in the Middle East.
He said: “There is a real feeling of helplessness, hopelessness and powerlessness among Britain’s Muslims in the context of Gaza and the sense of grievance and injustice is both profoundly acute and obviously profoundly unhealthy.”
Is this justified? I’m sure Melanie Phillips’ troll legion will seize upon this as yet another example of Muslims just waiting to blow us up but perhaps the reaction (the reaction not any ensuing action) is understandable?
Those of us with long memories might recall the anger black communities felt at treatment by the police and how that spilled over into riots. The sense of injustice, coupled with strong disillusionment with wider society and a sense of having no voice can increase temptation to react badly.
These days of course there’s a whole new dynamic when it comes to extreme reaction. Those who do not understand a person’s connection to another people [in a far away land] need to reassess how they view minorities, from formerly immigrant communities, in this country. Policy should reflect the people, and until it does resent will grow and manifest itself in all kinds of ways we don’t like.
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Yep – that sounds like a threat to me!
Those who do not understand a person’s connection to another people [in a far away land] need to reassess how they view minorities, from formerly immigrant communities, in this country.
I’m afraid that “reassessment” is not likely to be a positive one.
Alternatively those “angry” people, in any event a small minority and who are generally the children or grandchildren of people who have come from, erm, a completely different far away land, might like to consider that our foreign policy is fortunately not going to be dictated by threats of violence.
Yep – that sounds like a threat to me!
Voices inside your head.
How does this reaction compare to that over Bosnia, where 100,000 + muslims were killed?
Suppose I wrote this:
Those who do not understand a person’s connection to his own culture need to reassess how they view the white majority, from formerly homogenous communities, in this country. Policy should reflect the people, and until it does resent will grow and manifest itself in all kinds of ways we don’t like.
Would that be OK?
Sid,
Are you condoning the minister’s statement?
So because LTTE is being attacked by Sri Lankan forces and thus resulting in Hindu casualties — I should become angry and start threatening my own country.
Bizzare logic.
Where is this injustice in British society that Leon talks about and you clearly defend?
Where was all this righteous anger among Muslim communities when Muslims are slaughtering each other in Iraq? Or in the Mumbai attacks or against Pakistan?
Aren’t we treating muslims special — is that supposed to be the British way? Oh how progressive we are at PP?
This is fucking sad — either you are British or you are not. If you are british and you want to change policies run for fucking office.
Shahid Malik is an intelligent man and I like him but this comment does not befit a British Minister
#5 Well said Shamit. This ‘anger’ seems to be very twisted, since only when non-Muslims, especially Jews, are doing the killing is it important. And this ‘anger’ manifests itself by random killing with AK47’s and mutilating any Jews you can find, as in Mumbai? This kind of ‘anger’ need not be ‘addressed’.
Anyone care to answer tim’s point #3?
Are you condoning the minister’s statement?
No, but I certainly do not think the minister’s statement or Leon’s analysis thereof can be construed as expressing or even condoning a collective Muslim “threat”. Do you?
#3, Bosnia: Very distressed!
Gaza: very very distressed! Like very many British people.
Shamit, what does this mean: – ‘either you are British or you are not’? Would you direct your comments based on that to those that marched on Saturday and another one for those that gathered on Sunday. At least then I could see where you are coming from.
Would you also kindly express a view on British citizens serving in a foreign army – again informed by your comment above.
Those of us with long memories might recall the anger black communities felt at treatment by the police and how that spilled over into riots.
That was something that happened, and still happens, to black people at home. This is something that is happening abroad, along with other terrible things happening all over the world. Many of these do not receive anything like the media coverage of the Gaza crisis but are nonetheless very real and, er, “unhealthy” for those British citizens whose families and friends are directly affected by them.
I dislike the suggestion that certain segments of the population will behave badly unless they get what they want, however intellectually justified they feel their position is. I have faith, as I always say, in the vast majority of British Muslims to express their outrage in a peaceful way, just like the vast majority of British citizens generally do. Statements like this only reinforce the false impression that Muslims are in some way not to be expected to exercise control in the way that other people are.
No one in this country is being bombed. No one in this country is being starved or denied medical treatment. I don’t care how strongly anyone feels about what might be happening abroad – there is no justification for taking these grievances out on the civilians of this country (you know, the civilians, the ones who aren’t supposed to be held collectively responsible for the action or inaction of their government), nor should there be any sympathy for people who feel they are entitled to do so.
Presumably Britain’s Muslims must have been “very impressed” then when the UK led the relief of Kosovo.
Boyo, I’ll tell you what I found really interesting. It was the sight of an Israeli field hospital operating in Macedonia there to assist fleeing refugees during the Balkan conflict.
Even today, I am astonished that Israel can send out aid to other parts of the world and yet treat the Palestinians as they do.
if this didnt radicalise, something would be wrong.
but i dont think muslims are the only ones being radicalised. my impression is that it was in fact white lefties who trashed starbucks. plenty of nonleft trad jewish people are being radicalised for palestine these days.
i think even more would be radicalised if the bbc would ever bring itself to showing oxygenated and palestinian blood on the streets of gaza.
one jewish
Shamit – I can see you why you say Malik’s comment is not befitting of a British minister, but not why you say he is an intelligent man and you like him!
As a British minster, Malik could and would have well been within his rights to have supported calls for more than a ceasefire and welcomed for example Nick Clegg’s comments last week. (The UK does not have the rigidity of opinion on all matters Israeli that is enforced on US politicans including Obama by AIPAC)
Given the context, I think he may have simply been making a statement of fact that ” the sense of grievance and injustice is both profoundly acute and obviously profoundly unhealthy.”
Where he shows lack of intelligence however is in speaking as if/allowing himself to be protrayed as/ a ’spokesperson for British muslims.’ That way does lie increasing greivance/divisions of the sort that will excite the trolls Leon advises of.
Personally I would argue that as British citizens and as communities with an immigrant heritage, British Muslims and British Jews in actuality have more in common than the obvious fact that most will disagree on Israel/Palestine. And would call on Muslims as the more numerical global community – with proportionally far less family links to people who actually live in the ‘Holyland’ – to give some slack on the issue and not give the impression that the ‘only good Jews are anti-Zionist jews,’ however much they agree (including myself) with Noam Chomsky about Israel’s duplicity and violence towards the people whose land it took.
Fug – I very much agree that, at least post-watershed, TV should report all the news uncensored – then perhaps everyone would be a little less gung-ho.
TBH I think EVERYONE is becoming more radicalised, and polarised. Cultural and historical processes nationally and internationally have led to a kind of Balkanisation throughout the globe, aggravated by the ease of travel and communication, that bodes ill for future generations.
Are we sure this is all about the treatment of Palestinians?
Kuwaits expulsion of over 400,000 Palestinians in 1991 was met with err … nothing.
Tim, why don’t you tell us what its about? Guessing games run over several threads can be tedious.
I dislike the suggestion that certain segments of the population will behave badly unless they get what they want
But isn’t that how we think about the BNP? The point that marvin and many others make is that increasing number of immigrants is making white working class people angry, therefore we should stop doing it.
Or that expressions of religion in the public is rude to people who don’t want to see it, so they shouldn’t do it.
I think the picture is too simplistic here. People will sympathise with the concerns of a group who they identify with.
It’s an obvious fact this is stoking a lot of anger amongst British Muslims. A lot of that has to do with political immaturity on their part.
But then the BNP and white working classes behave the same – we’re told by a succession of MPs and right-wing columnists that unless we listen to the concerns of white working classes, then there will be riots.
Sunny, aren’t you confusing two different things – the perception of prejudice at home perceived by the WWC and the sense of a global grievance by Britain’s Muslims?
^^ we are told to listen to the concenr of the white working class or else. But we dont, so we carry through the same bad ideas or knock the same bad ideas with worse ones.
Tim, if they would express resentment at that it would be towards Kuwait. I think the idea here is that British Muslims feel angry towards their government because it supports Israel and doesn’t condemn what they see as a gross act of injustice perpetrated against their kith and kin.
I’ve always been a part of the grassroots support of the Palestinian cause, not because I’m Arab or Muslim, but because the powers that be support the state that has prevented Palestinian self-determination for so long.
16 – I’m asking you a genuine question, if it were about numbers dead then the anger over Bosnia or Darfur would be much higher.
If it were about Palestinians,then the anger over Kuwait would have registered, or indeed the Palestinians in Gaza killed by Hamas.
I think its largely down to the nature of the perpetrator.
People are always more interested in the child killed by a stranger than they are the more commonplace occurrence of a child killed by its parents.
But isn’t that how we think about the BNP?
The BNP is a problem in this country, as with Leon’s example of the police brutality against black people. It’s a problem at home that directly impacts on the citizens in this country. That’s the distinction that I drew at the start of my comment, and the context in which I said the part that you quoted.
I’ve always been a part of the grassroots support of the Palestinian cause, not because I’m Arab or Muslim, but because the powers that be support the state that has prevented Palestinian self-determination for so long.
But you’re not about to start a riot because of your strong support for the Palestinians, are you?
Refresh – My wife is actually from Macedonia, and in that part of the world Israel is a very polarising issue, not least because there is a reasonable amount of evidence that the Israelis made a deal with the devil and actively helped the Pale Serbs. There were reports (and I think that the Dutch governement has pictures) of unexploded shells with Hebrew writing from Srebrenica.
Many in the region have a deep suspicion of Israel and it not solely muslims.
I mean what is “patience running out” with? The inability of the British government to leap in and resolve a major conflict between two foreign nations that’s been fermenting since 1948?
Wait, am I reading most of the posts above correctly which are basically stating that people shouldn’t be “affected” by all the civilian deaths in ANOTHER country because its not Britain?
It’s perfectly human to react to years and years of killing of one country by another more rich, more stronger, more popular country. It’s normal to react to exploitation by richer nations of poorer nations as the relationship of America and Mexico, or Britain and India of past.
People are protesting, most of which has been peaceful, regardless of what some media sources may say. Nobody I know is angry enough to strap on a bomb and blow something up.
Wait, am I reading most of the posts above correctly which are basically stating that people shouldn’t be “affected” by all the civilian deaths in ANOTHER country because its not Britain?
Not mine. My point is that Muslims are no more or less likely than anyone else in the country to start riots because they don’t like something that’s happening abroad, and a junior minister hinting that they might is pretty offensive.
Nobody I know is angry enough to strap on a bomb and blow something up.
That’s my point too, lady
“unexploded shells with Hebrew writing from Srebrenica”
Evidence? I couldn’t find any.
I’m not asking that at all.
I’m asking why the post implies a collective Muslim psyche at the end of its tether in Britain over this issue, and why (if it exists) it didn’t establish itself over Bosnia, or Darfur for example.
‘Policy should reflect the people, and until it does resent will grow and manifest itself in all kinds of ways we don’t like.’
Total cobblers.
Countries and governments can not and should not determine foreign policies on the basis of whether a group of home-grown religious (and that is surely the rub) fanatics will get the hump and commit mass murder on public transport.
Following that logic, you give a veto over government policy to extreme, violent and dangerous people. It is glib and then some to say that the views of, ‘immigrant communities,’ (whatever that means) should be a main factor in the determination of policy. Why should their opinions (and interests)about conflict zones trump those of others?
There are many people who oppose the Gaza conflict but very few of those support, support or condone violence. These communities are absolutely not ‘compelled’ or ‘driven’ to, ‘act in ways we don’t like.’ These people make a conscious adult decision – and they can easily choose not to do so.
The root cause of religious (and yes, Islamic) terrorism is religious (and Islamist) ideology.
I have no intention of blaming ourselves or our government for the acts of extremists and you skate very close to indulging violence here.
MaidMarian,
That sight of Israeli medical teams in Macedonia has stuck with me. I was aware of the Israeli arms, and a recent example of course is what happened in Georgia. I really don’t understand why it pursues the policies it does. Either they step in as mercenaries or they are acting for a third party.
All the same its not wholesome.
boyo – From memory it was in the NIOD report for the Dutch government. Three countries were named as providing active support to the Pale Serbs, Greece, Israel and Ukraine. I would hazard a guess that their interest were different. There is evidence that the Greek foreign ministry were actively considering the annexation of Macedonia with Milosevic.
Here is a copy of a Guardian report that mentions it.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/yugoslav/0422us.htm
refresh – I do not want to get too drawn into this, but there were some utterly fantastical accounts of Mossad negotiatiing safe exit for Jews from Srebrencia in exchange for weapons.
I am not aware evidence for this and, as ever, rumour can easily be fuelled by anti-Jew feeling. This being said there is evidence that the Israelis were involved in the Balkan conflicts.
Out of interest, when and where were you in Macedonia?
nd a junior minister hinting that they might is pretty offensive.
It’s offensive alright. But in my opinion, the power to change that for Brits is as effective as the UN trying to get Bush not to go to war with Iraq.
And I’ve gone off on a tangent.
Would you also kindly express a view on British citizens serving in a foreign army – again informed by your comment above.
Don’t the British Jews serve in Israeli armed forces?
MaidMarian, I am so sorry. It wasn’t Macedonia. It was Montenegro.
I’ve never been there, but it was in the mainstream news story about refugees entering Montenegro.
36 – Are we expected to believe you confused Montenegro, which was allied with Serbia,and therefore took no Muslim refugees, with Macedonia which wasn’t and did?
Refesh – I’d love to go to Montenegro. The Balkans are a wonderful part of the world. It could only be improved if the locals would stop shooting each other.
Either way, Israel’s (and others’) actions in the Balkans in the 1990s are a story that, I hope, will come. If nothing else, at the very least Britain held a more or less real inquiry into links with Serbia.
Yes you are.
And I wasn’t even looking at who the refugees were.
If you look back you might note that I wasn’t making a point related to ethnicity, but more the peculiarity of the situation.
Sunny, aren’t you confusing two different things – the perception of prejudice at home perceived by the WWC and the sense of a global grievance by Britain’s Muslims?
Yo, people are globally inter-connected! When Indira Gandhi invaded the Golden Temple in 1984, you think British Sikhs were just chilling? There were nearly riots in Southall! People still fight over those issues now.
Similarly, if Jews weren’t affected by Israel, why were so many marching on Sunday?
It’s a global world now, just get used to the idea.
39 – I’d love to read your dispatches from the Punjab in 1947.
Sunny, I think that the point is that there is not much point getting all worked up in Southall – those Sikhs needed to take it up with Indira Gandhi, not the British government.
Just because a section of society has some sort of commonality with others around the world does not mean that governments should prioritise that group’s interests.
It’s a global world, but that does not mean religion should be indulged – does it?
I think Sunnys’ point that it’s an interconnected world is quite right. The problem though is that both Palestinian and Israeli supporters in the UK, and the UK government, are largely impotent.
At their very best, protests may put some backbone into the actions of the Foreign Office, but they certainly won’t see UK, EU or UN troops put into a fire zone, if that is what is expected. And it would, indeed, be naive to think that even riots would influence that.
I’d be very interested if either group of demonstrators actually think that the invasion / intervention in Gaza was UK foreign policy. And, if it was, what the hell we had to gain?
This is an event where only peaceful protest makes any sense whatsoever.
At least, that’s what I think.
but the uk government in not impotent with respect to.
expelling the israeli ambassador
banning arms sales to israel
banning uk citizens from military service in israel.
i wonder how many jewish londoners are presently killing palestinians. what loyalty hypocrisy complex is being built here.
ban them, if they go prosecute them as terrorists and socially ostrasize them from our public institutions. serving the israeli offense force should have consequences.
“Shamit, what does this mean: – ‘either you are British or you are not’? Would you direct your comments based on that to those that marched on Saturday and another one for those that gathered on Sunday. At least then I could see where you are coming from.
Would you also kindly express a view on British citizens serving in a foreign army – again informed by your comment above.”Refresh,
I believe each and every British citizen has the right to march and join in peaceful protest on anything s/he believes in. I firmly believe in the right to question our democratically elected leaders – actually I think it is our responsibility as citizens. Therefore, all those who protested over the weekend as long as they were peaceful and expressed their views within the rule of law, have my support.
How dare does the Minister claim that “patience is running out” – what is he implying? Should we define our policies based on the anger expressed by one particular religious community? Those who are British Muslims – must remember they are British and it is their Government as well. And, our system of governance is democratic and changes in policies happen through debate and persuasion both in and out of parliament – not through veiled threats.
As I have said in my comments before, because Sri Lankan army is running an operation (rightly so) against LTTE (another bunch of fucking thugs) a lot of innocent Hindu civilians are dying – so should I start a group and threaten my Government and my own country. No. If I disagree with my Government there are ways of expressing that and there are ways of changing policies through the electoral process. But don’t threaten my country or your own country for that matter for actions taken by others in a foreign land.
The implications of the Minister’s statement go against the very notion of the rule of law. That is ludicrous and stupid and grossly unacceptable. And, what pisses me off most about this is this would give fodder to groups such as the BNP.
Also, why this special status for the minority among British Muslims who think in this ludicrous way? The vast majority of British Muslims do not think the way the Minister statement implies which is – change policy or else. And that angers me.
If you condemn the death of innocent people and state sponsored terror – why doesn’t the Muslim community (the ones the Minister refers to) demand our Government take action against the Sudanese Government. Or for that matter the state sponsored terrorism that some agencies of Pakistan have clearly supported that has caused the death of innocent people including Muslims. Can anyone tell me why Muslim blood is more precious than Christian, Hindu, Jain, Sikh or Jewish blood? Or do their morality and sense of injustice come into play when Muslim blood is shed?
If so, why not protest against the killing that is going on in Iraq ? Or the Taliban in Afghanistan or LeT in Pakistan – no they do not have an answer. And, how come a Minister of the British Government dare suggest that policy should be made to appease a particular bunch of hot heads – that’s no way to govern. And the United Kingdom would be better off without ministers such as this.
All religions ask you to love your country and in my own limited knowledge of Islam – Islam does too. And those who have been born and brought up here and suggest that they would attack their fellow citizens because of some perceived injustice somewhere else – then they can fuck off from Britain. And those who became naturalised citizens of this country – if they share these thoughts – they should be stripped off their citizenship and deported.
Could anyone imagine an American politician making this statement? They would be political history. The loony left and the loony teachers’ union made a huge hue and cry when Gordon Brown talked about teaching kids about loving their country – Britain. Somehow that was unacceptable to those idiots. But that is exactly what is needed in this country now. We are British and no matter where our origins come from this is our country and we should love it. Especially since this country has been very good to immigrants.
Lot of people make fun of the over the top patriotism of Americans – but you know what I think may be a bit of that is needed here. And Refresh I hope I have made my thoughts clear now.
Sunny’s original point was: “Those who do not understand a person’s connection to another people… need to reassess how they view minorities, from formerly immigrant communities, in this country. Policy should reflect the people, and until it does resentment will grow and manifest itself in all kinds of ways we don’t like.”
His observation is partially correct. However, in fairness policy does on the whole represent the majority of “the people”, who do not consist of immigrant communities. That’s the nature of democracy.
The subtext is: should the UK shape its policies according the priorities of a vocal (and sometimes violent) minority? Or should those minorities seek to shape policy through the democratic system?
Mossad PR Man – “How dare does the Minister claim that “patience is running out” – what is he implying? Should we define our policies based on the anger expressed by one particular religious community? Those who are British Muslims – must remember they are British and it is their Government as well. And, our system of governance is democratic and changes in policies happen through debate and persuasion both in and out of parliament – not through veiled threats.”
So you’d agree that we also shouldn’t define our policies and give Lordships to people who can buy influence ala Levy and Blair?
So you’d agree that we shouldn’t allow an ardent Zionist and Pro-Israel supporter to dicate Govt policy and be made a peace envoy? God forbid we should have a neutral?
So you’d agree that shouting the loudest shouldn’t get influence and air time – tell that to Melanie Phillips.
What about serving in the Israeli army and possibly commiting war crimes whilst a British Citizen?
So the Muslim Minister shouldn’t speak but its ok for the Jewish MPs and Ministers to make their views known on behalf of Israel via their Friends of Israel societies and thus ignore the views of their electoirate whicha few do.
Exactly. Also, some of the comments on here are just beyond funny, don’t you people understand your common humanity?
Mossad PR Man – “And, how come a Minister of the British Government dare suggest that policy should be made to appease a particular bunch of hot heads – that’s no way to govern. ”
And how come a Prime Minister of the British Governemtn make policy to appease a minority that gives backdoor cash illegally to his party – was that a good way to govern?
Didn’t hear many complaints from you about that now did we?
Amazing that a PM should choose to go to a Jewish Newspaper Propritor (Murdoch) and sit with his Board than return to Parliament but tyou didn’t complain about that.
Now a Muslim speaks and you complain because hey it is against Israel.
Rupert Murdoch Jewish?
Ach nooo…
“Murdoch’s father was Sir Keith Arthur Murdoch, a powerful Australian newspaper proprietor of Scottish descent (Clan Murdoch is actually a sept of Clan MacDonald). His mother is Dame Elisabeth Murdoch (née Elisabeth Joy Greene), the daughter of a wealthy Irish family.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch
Presumably your claim British policy to Israel is founded on Jewish back-handers is built on the same solid foundations?
Imran — now you are trying my patience.
And this post has got nothing to do with Jews or Muslims or hindus or for that matter anyone. But British citizens and the way we should be governed.
You are the one who always brings religion into any debate and your argument is pretty stupid. Party financing in the UK is a mess and that was not to appease any minority. You nitwit…
Here is something positive that you can consider taking part in:
Petition to the prime Minister
Please send it to as many people you think would consider signing this.
Click on link below to sign
Subject: Petition to the prime Minister
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:19:10 +0000
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Arms-embargo/
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to do everything in his power to impose an arms embargo on Israel in light of the recent Israeli offensive in the Gaza strip and to apply pressure on countries supplying Israel with arms that breach international agreements with the intention of restoring lasting peace to the region. More details
Ah that well known Jew, Murdoch. It’s quite telling when people seem to think all people in power who don’t share their point of view are Jewish.
Refresh
That long post I wrote were to respond to your queries – hope my point of view is clarified now.
If he ain`t Muslim – he ain`t shit.
That seems to be Imran`s point of view and everyone else is part of the Zionist conspiracy
Shamit – you are using every opportunity to bash Muslims and when we reply you say we are trying your patience.
Your implication about government was directed clearly at one section of the community and stop trying to pretend otherwise. Your attack was on a Muslim Minister for speaking out and you said how dare he in such a way.
You are the nitwit for expecting a Muslim Minister not to speak out but to not expect the same of others.
I wonder how many of the MPs speaking out through the Labour Friends of Israel represent the views of their consituents but you don’t complain about that in government – why not?
Can this ‘ain’t’ business please stop.
I’ve already had to reprimand SE this evening
Mosaad PR Agent – “If he ain`t Muslim – he ain`t shit.
That seems to be Imran`s point of view and everyone else is part of the Zionist conspiracy”
Compared to your view If he ain’t Jewish we don’t give a shit.
If you put your Zionism manual down you’ll see I have said both sides are to blame which is more than the drivel you spout.
Its all their fault we don’t want to do this but we have to crap that you keep coming up with.
They are not in Government — and when you are in Government you have to act within the realm of collective responsibility.
And I doubt any MPs friends of Israel or otherwise would be saying things like patience is running out and implying that if Government does not change policy — there could be reprisals. I find that unacceptable. And somehow that is got nothing to do with religion..Even if hindu or sikh groups tried that I would have said the same thing — let alone Jewish Groups.
My religion and faith is a private affair and I don`t like to be clubbed as part of a religious group and definitely not in matters of state and governance. A bit too complicated for you simpleton.
Don`t you fucking dare try to paint me as anti Muslim. I dont bring religion in every argument thats your style.
Chairwoman –
Please read my comments in detail before reprimanding me.. I have held my tongue for a long time..but this guy is incorrigible.
I am not Jewish and I am not a part of their propaganda machine either. Religion is a private thing and has no business in governance. And definitely not in Britain.
I have a problem with any politician doing so irrespective of their religion.
I just wanted everyone to back off a bit.
Shamit, #_5 (8:50pm) above yes I agree with the core principles. As for Malik, the politician I guess I find myself agreeing with Ashik above.
There aren’t very many things you’ve said on the topic (The Israeli Adventure) that I’ve agreed with and question some of your facts and reasoning. But its good to see you being honest about it. And that is an area which needs substantial debate, which does lead us into this particular territory.
Hahaha. Jooooooooossssss everywhere! Imran run while you still can, this thread has been INFILTRATED!!11! They may start shape changing soon. Try throwing money at them.
Btw I am not the slightest bit Jewish, Imran, Comrade, Leon etc. Imagine if I started calling everyone who disagreed Muslim! I’d be called out for being a bigot quicker than I could say Zionist Conspiracy.
fug,
Thanks for your reply.
1) Expelling the Israeli Ambassador. Err..
The UK is not at war with Israel, they haven’t done anything to us. Keeping diplomatic channels open might be one of the few ways we can influence the situation.
2) Banning Arms sales to Israel. Possibly, that’s Nick Cleggs idea, isn’t it? Which is working within a political framework, not outwith it.
If it were to be meaningful it would have to be a joint effort by the whole of the EU. To be honest, I cannot see it happening, and as long as the US supports Israel it would be pretty well meaningless.
Look here for the Israeli Air Forces’ sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force#Current
The overwhelming majority of their aircraft come from the US. None from the UK.
3) I’m not up on this point at all. I’d no idea that UK citizens could join foreign armies – at least without the consent of HMG – without penalty. Indeed there appears to be an act of Parliament that says you can’t, called the Foreign Enlistment Act of 1870. Perhaps that’s just lying there, unused. Or it doesn’t cover this situation.
I can’t Google anything meaningful about that point. Is it even the case – that folk from the UK are in the IDF? Or is it a myth? Of course, folk with dual nationalities would be a different matter.
In summary, yes, perhaps the UK could tweak Israels tail. But it would be able, acting alone, to do no more than that. It certainly wouldn’t sway them.
So, I don’t see your prescription as a way forward.
BTW Fug, I know your post only as .4. Somethings up with the formatting at the moment.
Shamit,
There are already well-established routes and channels into government, over in the US its AIPAC and you were honest enough to tell us why you think Obama can’t do nothing, because of AIPACs hold on Congress. To me that is a horrifying thought. That regardless what is good for US the country in terms of foreign policy, AIPAC has that much sway/control that elections are irrelevant as far as this sphere of goverment writ is concerned.
It might not sound good, but although some anger is justifiable over what has happened in Gaza, if people really feel ‘helplessness, hopelessness and powerlessness’, then they should see how they can help.
I mean, I saw some girls selling stuff on a stall today in an ‘Appeal for Gaza’.
I also think that if people are really so riled that they should consider going ‘over there’ and helping out. Yet how many of them will?
I’m not saying that people aren’t allowed to be angry, I just feel that issues like this do become too easily a pat justification for terrorists. Which is ridiculous, because as established in the past, terrorists often aren’t even educated enough to really know their own religion and history, and that’s why they’re fundies!
douglas at #65 makes an excellent second point about banning arms sales to Israel. Unfortunately, as the latest Private Eye pointed out, Britain has if anything increased its arms sales: ‘According to the latest FCO figures, Britain exported £18,847,795-worth of weapons to Israel in the first three months of 2008. This was a sharp increase compared to the £7.5m of weapons sales to Israel in the whole of 2007.’
Great. What’s that, you say? It’s a recession, innit? Got to get the money from somewhere?
I agree with Douglas that no British Citizen should be joining foreign armies and I also do not agree British citizens having dual citizenships. If you have dual citizenship then I guess then you could join other armed forces which do not make sense at all to me.
‘Great. What’s that, you say? It’s a recession, innit? Got to get the money from somewhere?’
We cannot possibly be thinking about revenue from sale of weapons to a regime who is known to and are being seen to relish using them on civilian population centres? Can we?
I understand we are also buying from them too.
“…you were honest enough to tell us why you think Obama can’t do nothing, because of AIPACs hold on Congress. To me that is a horrifying thought. ”
Refresh
I actually agree with your thoughts on this one. It gives undue influence and this AIPAC group is one which has even called Jimmy Carter an anti-semite because he dared to challenge Israel policies. So no arguments there.
On Shahid Malik — the man is intelligent and I am not going to judge a man just because he made one stupid comment. I found the comment very offensive as you are well aware.
S
“Where he shows lack of intelligence however is in speaking as if/allowing himself to be protrayed as/ a ’spokesperson for British muslims.’ That way does lie increasing greivance/divisions of the sort that will excite the trolls Leon advises of.”
AsifB – well said
Amrit @ .7
Point taken. Although £18 million is chump change.
My broader point was that an effective arms embargo on Israel would require Security Council backing and that the US would veto it. Even if we acted unilaterally, which Fug and Co would like us to do, it would make no difference. The slack would be taken up by the US or others, without a blink.
Which is why I think we – you, me, the protesters on Saturday, the protesters on Sunday, the UK government, UK citizens, the lot of us, have no frigging influence.
It would, though, be worthwhile considering it as a gesture.
Though, on balance, what was Israel supposed to do? BBs’ post on the other thread is perhaps the best comment I’ve read on this whole subject.
Folk are being manipulated by governments to sacrifice themselves, y’know, die, for debating points on forums such as this. It’s called propoganda. And this is a propoganda war.
What else can it be, when militarily one side so outranks the other? It is perhaps why the propoganda war is so fierce….
The propoganda war is not as unequal as the war on the ground. The Yanks called it ‘Hearts and Minds’ and it is now global.
‘Though, on balance, what was Israel supposed to do?’
It was not supposed to break the ceasefire, as it did on the 4th November. It along with US and UK was not supposed to derogate the electoral will of the Palestinian people. It was not supposed to blockade and continue to blockade Gaza which it has been doing since the pullout.
It was not supposed to support Bush’s little wheeze getting Fatah’s strongman in Gaza, Mr.Dahlan, to launch a coup against its own elected government.
And I suppose, Hamas were not supposed to have caught Dahlan, US and Israel with their pants down in seeing Dahlan off. That was not a part of the equation like very many other things George W Bush rolled out into the middle east.
Refresh,
I’ll raise you the Sykes – Picot agreement, and all of the rest of the clusterfuck that has been the history of the region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
I’ll raise you the Irgun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
I’ll raise you the PFLP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLP
You really don’t get it, do you?
People are being used as pawns in religious and ethnic war. They are expected to die for whichever side manages to propogandise them best. It is ridiculous.
Dahlan, whom I had never heard of before, seems quite a tragic hero to me. Faced with impossible odds. Perhaps others will feel the same way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Dahlan
Oh poor little israel, no scope for initiative in this action situation boo hoo. Poor oppressed israel lacking in options to resolve its problem let us all sigh a big sign for the powerless trapped zionists and zionesses. I mean how else were they going to construct their next offensive, other than as ‘defence from Palestinian pea shooters’?
Not only did dear israel poison, humiliate and kill arafat, it picked abu mazen as the man it could ‘do business with’ to further undermine the population whose land it has appropriated. The practical logic manufactured by the beastly state of Israel is unwinding fast. Fewer decent people than ever before have any excuse to regard Project Israel as anything other than a uniquely harmful creator of global problems.
Every excuse in the book has been used already, and so annoyingly so, that the poisonous words and distractions dripping from its apologists mouths are comical. Only those in the USA seem relatively oblivious, but thanks to people like Amy Goodman they cannot complain that ‘they werent in a position to know’.
Israel and its allies are a good counter example of how a group of people may exist in the world. Thats a radical lesson for all in the world. Its illegitimate birthing epitomises the unjust nature of the United Nations, from its very inception. No amount of development dollars can wipe that away.
Whats interesting is how the present beastliness is unifying muslims, no matter how we are slapping eachother in other departments. Intergenerationally, racial, sectarianly etc. Outside the greater muslim community, any race that has undergone the rapacious effects of colonisation burns a candle for palestine.
Look even Ban Ki Moon’s compatriots are at it
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SvSwEfGmB3Y
hmm now…how to radicalise the swiss…
fug @ .5,
This is lunacy. It boils down to letting Palestinians die in order that you can have your Ummah?
I quote:
I realise now that you are completely up your own arse. You have no desire to try to resolve the actual problem, or the deaths. You see it as some sort of historical imperative. Let the Gazans die, for we shall be justified.
That is not a view I share.
Douglas,
And I’ll raise you Vanity Fair to your wikipedia.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
The fundamental reason I am really really pissed off is (apart from the murderous rampage in Gaza) that each time we think we might get close to an understanding someone wants to set it back a decade. And its not as if everything stays still over that period, more settlements are built reducing further the prospect of any peace.
Douglas, I do get it. And I want it stopped.
There’s lot the UK government could, in theory, do to influence the Middle east: it’s just the list of _productive and useful_ things that would _promote_ peace is short, maybe empty.
A Trident first strike on Jerusalem would go some way to altering the facts on the ground, but even on the internet you would struggle to find someone who would think it would be particularly helpful…
’something must be done’ doesn’t imply ‘this is something, therefore it must be done’.
Certainly, any proposal based on having the UK side with Hamas in a war on Israel (withdrawing ambassadors, military embargos, blockades, air strikes, …) isn’t really worthy of serious discussion.
no douglas, you are a fake.
its an unifying tendancy that i see around me. A support based value that has small effects on the lives over there.
Ummah exists, its just rather crap. Your analysis of the world, as whoever you think you are and coloured by your self righteous blinkers will be different from mine.
Radicalisation is non linear. recognising evil has that effect on people that incremental peace reaching (refresh?!?) cannot cope with it, normalising, justice blind bureaucratic fudge that it is.
Refresh,
So do I.
What I have tried to argue is what, I like to think, is what you and I both stand for.
Hear me out.
Firstly, there is much wrong on both sides. And neither side will admit it.
It is, frankly ridiculous that, out of guilt, the victors in WW2, colonialists, the lot of them, should agree that Israel should be an exclusively Jewish state. Did you get that? Exclusively, it is what was offered, or taken, and it is what is wrong with that part of the world, right now. Nor, from our 21st C perspective, was it legitimate. It was lines drawn on maps, and games played in Paris and London. How much of the worlds’ problems are based on those cartographers?
Secondly,
But, and there is an enormous but, what about the need to establish a Jewish State? I am going to have the whole of Harry’s Place fall down on me, but that is a racist concept. It is no better than a white South Africa. With the joyful exclusion principles that Idi Amin followed. Asian? Fuck Off! Muslim? Fuck Off! The idea of exclusivity is wrong, and always will be.
Whether it is Idi Amin or the Israeli State.
Lastly,
All of this has to be forgotten. If there is to be a compromise, one that isn’t imposed by the stronger on the weaker, then all that shit has to be put to bed, and abandoned.
soru @.8,
Look mate, I used to think you were just a bit off the wall.
Sometimes, you spoke enormous sense, but, lately, I just worry about you.
Seriously, are you OK?
fug, as you know I find your prose entertaining and often agonise over trying to work out what you are saying, and mostly I tend to get there. I have said your writing is genious, in that its so highly condensed. As I’ve said before its bit like a zipping a file on a computer.
The task of course is for the reader to successfully unzip your comments. And I am afraid on this rare occasion I have failed (I think). Can you tell me what you meant by
‘Radicalisation is non linear. recognising evil has that effect on people that incremental peace reaching (refresh?!?) cannot cope with it, normalising, justice blind bureaucratic fudge that it is.’
Douglas,
I long concluded that there is no way forward but for Israel to be a part of its neighbourhood, and not a transplant that is in constant need of anti-rejection drug therapy.
The argument constantly used by Israel is that it is not really middle eastern, as it is exclusively democratic and has the same values as the west – and really it is european. And that it is defending the values of the west (and some go as far as to say that it defends those values that the west seems unable to defend at home – I think that would be Melanie Philips’ argument).
Here is what Samuel Huntingdon is quoted as saying:
‘ Huntington declared that the West had “won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do”. ‘
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/professor-samuel-huntington-political-scientist-who-wrote-the-clash-of-civilisations-1221038.html
Those that follow the Huntingdon argument and continue to use its logic for expansion have to be utterly defeated.
Israeli propaganda is targetted at the wrong people, it is invariably aimed at us here in the West; and it constantly looks to show us how different they are to everybody else around them. This is of no use, the world is not blind nor stupid. The propaganda or PR, if you will, has to be aimed at the middle east to say and show that Israel does have a positive role to play alongside everyone else around them.
Only then can Israel itself start to feel it has a stake in the region; and the Palestinians can start to think about the future.
Another key point, I don’t believe Israel is under threat of being expunged. I think its the Palestinians who are the ones at risk.
Refresh,
Look.
I am an idiot so I am.
However:
Where’s the arguement?
Or this:
Alternatively, he could be up his arse?
What with it’s ridiculous ideas about equality, and stuff like that?
So, non Westernerns are wrong? Well, yes they are, when they preclude their women, when they think men exclusively matter. This is the arguement. This is what it’s all about.
soru – A Trident first strike on Jerusalem would cause a wee bit too many civilian casualties, both Israeli and Palestinian. In fact just about any intervention (except possibly by neutral UN troops) would cause far more civilian casualties than led to the outrage in the first place.
Of course, the same was true of the US/UK invasion of Afghanistan – civilian casualties quickly surpassed 9/11. But only superpowers can get away with that kind of thing, and the UK on its own isn’t a superpower.
Fuck,
The ridiculous idea that it’s just Muslims that are effected:
“Gaza crisis is having ‘profoundly unhealthy’ effect on UK Muslims, minister warns”
Look, it is having a profoundly unhealthy effect on me. And I’m an atheist.
fug at .9,
Me? A fake?
No Sir.
You said:
Where to start?
“Your analysis of the world, as whoever you think you are and coloured by your self righteous blinkers will be different from mine.”
Well, that much is obvious. I don’t think I am anyone, much. I do not have the arrogance to claim to speak, as you claim to do, for an entire religion. Nor pretend that the Ummah is imminent.
Actually, I speak only for myself. The self righteous blinkers, sir, are yours, and yours alone.
It is you, that are assumptive, not I.
Perhaps that means something inside your head, but when it is written out in English it just looks like utter crap.
fug. I’d suggest you back off, right now! Otherwise I will engage second gear.
Mossad PR Man – “I have a problem with any politician doing so irrespective of their religion.”
They all do it and you are picking on just one. Bush wore his religion on his sleeve but people like you didn’t make comments about him.
Shahid Malik has spoken up of an issue he thinks is wrong. On Newsnight yesterday Hazel Blears addressed the issue.
Its just you have a problem with Muslims and have come on here to vent of and you can’t do anything constructive to help get out of this mess.
The reason I reply to your nonsense is because it is so one sided that even Likud are not that far right wing.
As I have said time and again all sides there are to blame and all sides lack good leadership to get out of this mess. It isn’t even worth discussing Hamas because they have to make fundemental changes before they can contribute and I can’t keep saying that over and over. I think they are idiots who as Newsnight said yesterday find it easier to get elected by showing they’ll fight than showing they’ll make peace.
The question is moving forward from this mess and again I’ll say that peace for land is the only way forward. The Arabs have arrived at that point and have presented a plan which most people accpt is a good starting point.
What you fail to comprehend is that Israel needs this sooner than later because the rockets and other weaponary that is now being produced by the Palestinians is getting more sophisticated and is liable to cause more and more harm. Then you reach a point where Israel is no longer able to protect itself against a non-conventional army which anyone can see it struggles to do now.
Again on Newsnight they said that Israel can’t win this and have probably ended up doing the opposite of their intention and strengthened Hamas. Who said this – Military analysts in Israel. Thus your claim is silly that Israel can’t back down – they reported that Israel already is looking to because it can’t win without finding and killing almost every Hamas member and it can’t do that.
Israel is going to win and lose part of this war and the problem is how much thye end up strengthening what they said they would destroy. One analysts said that in the not too distant future Israel will end up going back in.
Thus anyone with a bit of sense can see the cycle here and the only way out is the way that no one is taking that of negotiations and land for peace. Neither side can have all the land and they need to learn to share and they have to share.
All this stems to a lack of leadership because both sides think they can’t sell this to their population which is itself a false argument because they don’t want to try because they are scared of the radicals and as you said the hotheads shouldn’t win but they are.
You can carry on having a go at me but everyone here knows I am right and the only way forward is land for peace.
Imran Khan,
Amen.
Oh dear dc has gears, I wonder are they VAT exempt?
You are more interested in self absorbed dialectics than seeing justice for palestine.
I wonder how many people born in the uk are killing palestinians right now. I know there are a few heros in israel manning organisations to halt the israeli war machine. but how many are on the other side? How come people’s allegedly comprehensive knowledges of ‘any extremism but that with Jewish frosting’ fails at this point? hmmmm
How dare they be permitted to participate and be granted kudos as a consequence. I think the government and UK society needs to dezionise the British Jews as a whole and work to stem their export to the colonial outpost in arabia.
fug,
Still in first gear.
Could you give some detail, rather than your usual innuendo? There is nothing I can find on the internet that supports your statement. So far, it is unsubstantiated rubbish. And your latest post only makes me bolder in suggesting that you have nothing to support your position. It is yet another content free submission.
You are the one that is saying the IDF has lots of UK Jews in it, not me.
Your position ought to be provable.
Show or fold.
Fug,
Oh.
On the question of Palestine, I think there are lions, such as your good self, led by fucking donkeys..evil donkeys.
And, just so you know, I find Harrys Place an equally stupid destination.
This whole thing is idiotic. And needs to be resolved by grown ups.
There’s a really interesting article in Times 2 today about the genetic make up of Jews and Palestinians, and what a group of them are trying to achieve.
I don’t know if Times 2 is on line.
That is my total contribution to today’s debate, as I personally do now wish to disappear up my own fundament.
too late aunty
moon
Muslims in the U.K. are in a “profoundly acute and unhealthy” situation to begin with. Unless- as many do- they regard muslim as a vague and trivial tag, they must live in a culture which casually contradicts their most basic assumptions and casually insults their belief or live tunnel lives deliberately not noticing what happens around them or change their beliefs or the expression of those beliefs in ways that completely transform them. The Israel/Palestine confrontation is a draught of cold air that means they need no longer contemplate their dilemmas in trying to live in Britain but can identify themselves as muslims without qualification.
The one time I don’t preview…..
“Thus anyone with a bit of sense can see the cycle here and the only way out is the way that no one is taking that of negotiations and land for peace. Neither side can have all the land and they need to learn to share and they have to share.
All this stems to a lack of leadership because both sides think they can’t sell this to their population which is itself a false argument because they don’t want to try because they are scared of the radicals and as you said the hotheads shouldn’t win but they are.”
Imran – this makes real sense to me and I agree with your sentiments here. This is exactly what I have been saying — and I am afraid if Bibi Netanayahu gets in once again — we would see the violence spiraling out of control.
So, overall you and I agree. Where I disagree with you is only one point — I dont see it as a religion issue because the moment we put religion into the mix — we actually tend to forget the major tenents of any religion ie peace and love for fellow human beings and let radicals take over.
I would have loved for the Minister talk about the gross human rights abuse and crisis and focus on the fact innocent civilians especially children are being slaughtered or attacked. A vast majority of the British population have a major problem with the increasingly desparate situation in Gaza and not only the Muslims.
I think muslims in this country need to learn that they can’t expect the entire country’s foreign policy to revolve around them.