Why let a silly thing like humanity come in the way of their illegal land grab?

I’d rather be the asshole than the shit that’s comes out of it and alas that’s what you’ve been spouting, verbal shit. I’ve heard all kind of figures mentioned about the numbers of people who died during the holocaust ( and not all of them were Jews). So I’ll leave it to you to come up with a exact and precise calculation of every last civilian person who was murdered at the hands of the NAZI’S. When you’ve finally come up with a definitve figure, let me and the rest of the world know, so that we can stop this foolishness. Like I said before EVERY LIFE MATTERS.

Chairwoman: I have hope for you because you said something VERY interesting. You used the word “TOO”. I’m hoping that this implies that the Jews do not hold exclusive rights over the lands that makeup Israel/Palestine and that if fact any claim is shared equally with others. If this is indeed the case, then me and you have made headway. This can ONLY be a good thing because if we can do this, so can they!

Have I made my point, do you think? Do I get a retraction of your claim that I tried to justify Shitreet’s words, Sunny?

I’m afraid you’ve misrepresented me. I absolutely and categorically did not try to justify Shitreet’s words.

Here’s what I said in repsonse to Mike’s assertion that Shitreet had said it was okay to target civilians (same link as in your post):

I saw that interview and this isn’t completely accurate. He certainly made no bones about the fact that we should expect Israel to return fire, even if the incoming emanates from a civilian area or building. In my view, such a policy risks – or at least could potentially risk if taken to its logical conclusion – indefensible civilian casualties. In Shitreet’s view, Israel is targeting the source of the attack upon it, and if this means civilians get hurt, the responsibility lies only with Hamas. This isn’t good enough for me, but it’s still not the same as “targeting civilians”. More like a reckless disregard for their safety (not in all cases, but some).

And at 1:19am in the same thread, I said:

Sorry Mike, but there is nothing in what I agree is the objectionable Shitreet’s words that supports your assertion that Israel has a policy of targeting civilians. His “so what” followed other comments where he’d made it clear that, in his view, a civilian building which was being used to launch shells or rockets at Israeli forces was, by definition, a legitimate military target. His dismissal of inevitable civlian casualties as the sole responsibility of Hamas and no-one else doesn’t wash with me, but targeting of civilians it is not.

And at 1:24am

Shitreet’s lack of concern about the levels of collateral damage Israel will inflict by returning fire every time, no matter the origin of the attack on it or the proximity of large numbers of civilians, is already morally repugnant. There is no need to turn it into something else.

And at 1:33am:

Anybody who thinks Israel has a right to return fire inreturn fire all circumstances no matter what, should try a little thought experiment:

Suppose Israel’s return fire having taken an incoming shell had a 50% chance of killing 10,000 five year olds. Assuming all right-thinking people would deny Israel’s right to return fire in such circumstances, the pricniple has already been established that Israel cannot simply absolve herself of all responsibility for her actions simply becasue Hamas are a bunch of war criminals.

Next, work back from 10,000 to discover your individual tipping point.

And at 1:47am:

Firing at targets when you know this will result in civlian casualties is not the same as targeting civilians. It might still be a war crime, but it doesn’t justify your description of Israeli policy as “targeting civilians”.

And at 1:54am:

the rules of war do not proscribe every act that will inevitably lead to civilian casualties; they simply require that actors balance the risk to civlians against legitimate military objectives. Shitreet’s blanket defence of Israel’s right to return fire in all circumstances necessarily absolves Israel of all responsibility to make any such assessment. It is morally indefensible.

Have I made my point, do you think? Do I get a retraction of your claim that I tried to , Sunny?

I’ll ask again: why do you call upon others to condemn attacks on Israel but then say it is childish, wrong, pope-like and not your concern when other ask you to condemn Israel? You’re obviously not concerned with justice, only with making the case for “your side”. Very mature indeed.

i don’t think that is a fair comparison TCH..not fair at all…tight tshirt or not

cuased by the only nastion ever to have been created on religious grounds alone.

Apart from Pakistan.

Thank you for a bloody good summary of the middle east farce – cuased by the only nastion ever to have been created on religious grounds alone. But:

‘Now am not certain – unless Hamas changes and the Israeli Right changes (as it is sure to be elected soon) then I don’t see much hope for Palestinian or Israeli civilians.’

You are forgetting the small change taking place in America on Jan 20, when a black guy takes over. There is a change coming…and I hope it ends in Israeli zionism humiliated and its weapons of mass destruction frozen. That should make it more of an even fight, and we’ll see if the Israeli’s then have the guts to go around killing helpless children.

Yeah, like Jews are foreign to Palestine. Aye right.
6000+ years. Do you realise that it is only in the century or so following the Mamluk conquest of the Levant in the late 1200′s that there slowly became a muslim majority in Palestine?

Anyway, thats an aside. The bald facts are that the Palestinian leaders could have accepted the UN offer in 48 but no they and the surrounding Arab States tried to finish the Nazis work.

Israel has been no better in may ways since finding itself with Gaza and the West Bank to administer and through the odious settler movement, land grab.

When I was at Uni in the early 90′s there seemed enough moderates on both sides for a viable two state solution.

Then the Israeli far right murdered Rabin, the American Right cornered Clinton domestically and Arafat turned out to be quite a fecking shite as I suspected.

Now am not certain – unless Hamas changes and the Israeli Right changes (as it is sure to be elected soon) then I don’t see much hope for Palestinian or Israeli civilians.

And as for Hamas going away? You think Israel’s going to disappear quietly into the ocean? Forget it.

Oh, and I’m not going anywhere either.

But thank you for making me remember why Israel has to exist.

Let me get this right.

The Palestinians are angry because the Jews took their land, while the Jews are angry that the Palestinians didn’t accept a deal for the Jews to illegally occupy Palestinian land.

But I’ll stand corrected if I’m wrong.

For me, the fact that one Jew died at the hands of those murdering Nazi bastards, is one death too many. But if you want to play numbers go right ahead, you sicko bean counter!

Let me make one thing crystal clear. I don’t care whether the Chairwoman is Jewish or not or if the word “Jerusalem” is included in her prayer because given the present situation, it is irrelevant. Call me a anti-Semite, I’ve been call worse but like HAMAS, I’m not going to go away. The Jewish State landed upon the Palestinian people and they have had to carry the can for a crime they didn’t commit. THAT IS WRONG! Now until you and others get your heads around this one unmoveable fact. the killings and murder will continue. Your choice!

Clearly your agenda supersedes your “humanity”.

Good line, I think we’re seeing that a lot on here recently…

Clearly your agenda supersedes your “humanity”.

Any atrocity deserves condemnation. I agree, so what’s different about this one?

Awful things happen in war – it is their nature – so that means we shouldn’t condemn them? That is being an apologist. It’s okay for them to murder Palestinians, it happens, now let’s forget about it and condemn other people for not condemning other atrocities. That’s pretty fatuous and entirely disingenious.

Yeah but all day you come here asking us to condemn this and condemn that. Why not do the same yourself?