Israeli minister says he doesn’t care about dead civilians
We’re constantly told, by the apologetics of the current assault, that the IDF is trying its best to avoid civilian casualties. Now, its own ministers have contradicted that directly. Watch this clip from Newsnight last night, and forward 5 min:
Israeli Internal Security Minister, Meir Shitreet: “If Hamas use those places, like schools, offices, buildings, to use them as a place to launch missiles from there, we don’t care where the missiles coming out, from there we hit these targets. If they think these will be a shield to them, if they go to a school or something, its a mistake.”
BBC Interviewer: “But when you say they were firing rockets from near the building, this is exactly what Israel said in 1996 when it killed dozens of people in a UN compound in Lebanon in Qana. Now you may well have a target there…
Meir Shitreet: which was true…
BBC Interviewer: …but dozens of civilians died…
In other words – there is no regards for civilian casualties, they will bomb the place. Just even look at his demeanour. He doesn’t care. He’s given other examples where the army tried to be more careful about avoiding civilian targets, but he says, “So?”
And this hasn’t even been picked up anywhere else. When Hamas say they have no regard for civilian casualties, then the same people are outraged. Now where’s the outrage?
Keep in mind that the Israeli government frequently labels even civilian casualties as Hamas even if proven otherwise. Also keep in mind that they continue to stop the international media from reporting inside the area properly, thus denying independent verification. So if the IDF says it was used by Hamas or populated by Hamas militants, we are all supposed to believe them.
(Sidenote: If you scroll more than halfway down this thread on Harry’s Place, Mike points out this interview. But rather than condemn the death of innocent civilians, much less say they’re appalled by a govt minister saying they don’t care about civilian casualties, you see Brownie and Gene of HP saying this policy was perfectly justified. Apparently ‘moral relativism’ doesn’t apply when you’re comparing Palestinian or Israeli dead.)
In fact, this isn’t the first time Meir Shitreet has said this. Last year he said that if he would happily destroy entire Gazan neighbourhoods (albeit cleared out of people first) if he knew of rockets fired from there. So if some terrorist secretly fires rockets from near you, you get punished by having your house destroyed. That’s IDF justice for you. That’s how they win hearts and minds. That’s how the peace process works.
Update: A UN official says there’s no evidence anyone was firing rockets from the school. Israeli officials now say it may have been from outside.
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Filed in: Culture, Middle East, Terrorism
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
-David Ben-Gurion, Israeli Statesman Prime Minister (1948-53, 1955-63), Chief architect of the state of Israel and revered as Father of the Nation.
Can I say straight away that I have watched the clip and am appalled.
I don’t expect any different from you chairwoman…
I can’t believe that. Jeez, the way Shitreet just dismisses the fact civilians have died. I am speechless
I’ve thought about it, and right now Israel seems guilty of war crimes: bombing the schools, the use of white phosphorus on areas where it is known civilians are present; it is a controversial assertion. Is Bananabrain now going to call me and everyone else names for even posing it? And will Katy Newton defend him just because she shares his point of view on all this?
We must keep asking ourselves, what if it was us, what if it was the other way round: yes we all agree on the need for a ceasefire in the short term, but in the long term, we cannot build peace unless all sides are held accountable for their actions. War crimes tribunals for those who commit war crimes, after thorough investigations – so that whoever commits these crimes does not get away with it in the future.
If all we say is “they’re both as bad as each other” and “let us forget the context of the last sixty years of history” and all we do is call for a ceasefire, anger and resentment on both sides, never mind justice, will never be addressed. We need short-term solutions (calling a permanent ceasefire, addressing the humanitarian crisis, ending the blockade), medium term solutions (beginning negotations, restoring Palestinian national unity) and long term solutions (ending the occupation, granting the right of return, setting up a Palestinian state).
If that involves being more critical of one side when it does something extremely wrong and unjustifiable, that is not counterproductive to peace: it’s a prerequisite for it. Stopping the cycle of violence is about more than just making them put down their arms for a few months or years, only to resume warfare later on: it’s about addressing the fact that war crimes were committed, taking the appropriate action so they are not committed again, and solving long-term grievances.
Otherwise this will keep happening, as it has continued to happen for sixty years.
The title of the post is wrong, I’m afraid. Hate to be a nit-picker, but this is an emotive subject and it pays to be precise.
It would be more correct to say that the Minister cares more about stopping/killing Hamas than he does about preventing Palestinian civilian deaths. Or, to put it another way, he cares more about preventing Israeli deaths than preventing Palestinian deaths. Which is not entirely surprising for an Israeli government minister. Your title implies that he would, for example, have no problem at all with killing Palestinians even if Hamas did not exist and there were no rockets being fired from Gaza – that is a substantially stronger claim and I don’t think that you intended to make it.
The problem that nobody has an answer to is this: if it is never permissible to fire rockets at an area that civilians occupy, does that not create immunity for anyone who wants to fire rockets from those areas? If Hamas are firing rockets from civilian areas, what should the Israelis do? I genuinely don’t have a good answer to this.
“When Hamas say they have no regard for civilian casualties, then the same people are outraged.”
Hamas doesn’t say that, yet clearly they do not. I can’t see the clip, but it comes as no surprise that the Israeli minister was not especially concerned – I doubt they are deliberately targeting civilians, but this is what happens in war: it is always this bad. Do you think its any better in Sri Lanka, where the government has just “over-run” a Tamil stronghold? But that’s barely in the news, is it. Yet consider how many similarities there are between Hamas and the Tigers. Does no one care for the plight of the Tamils? What makes them so different? The Sri Lankan government no less despised as “war criminals” than the Jews? PP posts on Sri Lanka are few and broadly pro-government. Why?
But back to world opinion. Danny Finkelstein wrote an interesting piece in the Times yesterday:
“The origin of the state of Israel is not religion or nationalism, it is the experience of oppression and murder, the fear of total annihilation and the bitter conclusion that world opinion could not be relied upon to protect the Jews…
So when Israel is urged to respect world opinion and put its faith in the international community the point is rather being missed. The very idea of Israel is a rejection of this option. Israel only exists because Jews do not feel safe as the wards of world opinion.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5461544.ece
You talk of outrage Sunny, yet I recall few marches or expressions of outrage when Israel was plagued by terrorism, or during the frequent attempts by Arab nations to destroy it. Your outrage seems to me every bit as capricious as the media coverage.
Here up north we’ve had some well attended marches and vigils expressing solidarity with the people of Gaza. These have attracted a lot of comment on the online message boards of my local newspaper. Interestingly the posters who sneer dismissively at these marches are the same ones who constantly make thinly veiled racist remarks about their British Muslim neighbours. Funny that…
. Israel only exists because Jews do not feel safe as the wards of world opinion
err…so it was ok to boot out the ppl that lived there in the first place and move them into camps in their own countries….and then fight children throwing stones with tear gas and bullets…
this whole situation did not start last month..it started a long while ago and this is the result..when you don’t give ppl equal rights sooner or later they’ll fight back any which way they can…so then we’re back to square one again…
And therein lay the problem.
Sorry for cross posting — but this is what I wrote last night on the invitation to march — I think this comment applies equally here:
“So we want ceasefire – that is the consensus. We want Israel to move out of Gaza and let things go back to the way it was before. Spare the civilians cry out the world – and I am no different. But will the ceasefire help the situation or embolden those who have been very much responsible for this mess? Sadly, I think the ceasefire will embolden Hamas, Hezbollah and their Godfathers in Tehran and guess what it would also embolden groups such as the LeT and their backers in Pakistan state along with their spiritual Wahabi Godfathers.
In 2005, IDF moved out of Gaza and there was supposed to have been a ceasefire – and guess who broke the ceasefire – not once, not twice but numerous times. It was HAMAS – and who were they targeting? Those who choose not to remember – well civilian homes. And, when the Israeli Government for the last 2 years brought this up in every possible forum – every possible news conference – I haven’t seen half the protests and the anger that I see today. Why that happens? I don’t know but it sure does.
An Israeli Government under Sharon and then Ohmert did more to curtail encroaching on Palestinian land and successfully pushed back Israeli settlers using the IDF than any other Israeli Government in history. But like all Israeli Governments since the one headed by Rabin (except for that likud idiot Netanyahu) they were all for a two state solution, provided Israel’s security was guaranteed. Well, Hamas was never prepared to do so and their Godfathers in Iran wouldn’t want them to or let them do it either. The biggest enemy of the Palestinian people are not Israel but Hamas and Iran – and many Palestinian editorials in recent days have implied so much.
If we accept any Government’s fundamental and prime responsibility is to protect its citizens from attacks within and without; then the Israeli Government is trying to do its job. The question then becomes why attack or cause the death of civilians especially children? Surely, IDF and Israeli intelligence know that these people are not Hamas. Well, I put the blame of civilian deaths squarely on the shoulders of Hamas.
Rockets smuggled through tunnels, piled up in areas where there is high density of civilian population and basing strategic locations within close proximity of hospitals, schools and mosques and then attacking civilian homes across the border — that is the operational blue print of both Hamas and Hezbollah. Both these organisations have been declared terrorist organisations by the UN.
But who funds them? Well Iran. Iran’s President is on record saying that Israel should be wiped out from the face of the earth – A view shared unequivocally by both Hamas and Hezbollah.
Is Israel using disproportionate force against Gaza? Yes. It is sad, heart wrenching to see civilians especially innocent children facing the brunt of the Israeli attack as the Hamas cowards make these utterly stupid statements and then go and hide in civilian heavy areas. By the way, the Israeli government flooded Gaza with leaflets, mass text messages telling people to get out of certain parts of Gaza city and other key areas.
Rather than trying to resolve this situation militarily what option does Israel have with regard to Hamas?
At the end of the day, these terror groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah don’t mind civilian casualties. These cowards want civilian deaths — only then can they win and get appeasement and become heroes. If we have a cease fire today, would that stop Hamas launching more attacks on Israel? NO. If Hamas is appeased today, I don’t think its going to make a safer middle east or the world. Ceasefire would be viewed by terrorists and their state backers as a win for Hamas — and that bodes for a dangerous world.
I want the economic blockade on Gaza to be lifted – I want a ceasefire which includes disarming Hamas – I want a ceasefire which deploys International Peacekeeping force in Gaza and the Israeli Palestinian border – which would be responsible for ensuring Israel’s security. I want President Abbas to be handed over charge on the Gaza territory and build up an effective administration that is more concerned with bringing opportunities and basic amenities for its people rather than fighting the cause of destruction of Israel. I want a Palestinian state that lives in peace with its neighbours – Egypt and Israel along with Jordan are in peace with each other and that should be the goal. And I want groups such as the international development organizations along with the private sector philanthropy groups are brought in under an UN mandate to improve lives of people. And it can be done and should be done.
Israel has a vibrant economy which is a powerhouse especially when it comes to creating companies and making them globally successful especially in the tech arena. And the biggest problem of the wider middle east is creating and sustaining economic opportunities for its youth – why cant the focus be on that.”
How real is that economy given the billions in subsidy American tax payers pay each year?
Shamit, you sound like a press release from the popular Israeli internal security minister, Meir Shitreet. It is after all a small step, once you have blamed all deaths on the victims, to say there is nothing wrong with bombing schools.
I think your intervention a la ‘war on terror’, whilst looking to present a worldly-wise overview, is the cause of our problems.
“…once you have blamed all deaths on the victims, to say there is nothing wrong with bombing schools.”
I did not blame the victims and niether did I support bombing of schools. I have said the use of disproportionate force is not the best option for Israel. But IDF is not going in and specifically targeting civilians — something Hamas does regularly.
Tell me whats the other option rather than to flush out Hamas?
Actually, its not only me who blames Hamas but also various Palestinian editorials in Palestinian papers. And, if you get a chance to speak with some Arab diplomats — they would tell you the same thing. They have no love lost for Hamas and very little for the Hamas’s financial backers Iran. By the way, during the ceasefire, over 3000 rockets were fired from Gaza to Israeli homes — I guess thats okay by your standards.
Punishing people for the sins of their fathers is a stupid idea — its time to move on. And as Boyo points out why is there no outrage about the LTTE situation — why is that? Maybe because they are Hindus??
Sitting in London in the secure environment of our offices and homes and pointing fingers may be easy and may make us feel good about ourselves. But putting our heads in the sand and saying the West Asia crisis do not have any impact on terrorism and state sponsored terrorism worldwide is just plain stupid.
“I think your intervention a la ‘war on terror’, whilst looking to present a worldly-wise overview, is the cause of our problems.”
Sure it is — appeasing violent terrorist groups is of course not.
Yeah I am too thick and I am part of the Zionist propaganda machine.
Have you been following the 26/11 investigation and follow up and reactions coming out of the Pakistani Government? Nah that would complicate things too much.
‘By the way, during the ceasefire, over 3000 rockets were fired from Gaza to Israeli homes — I guess thats okay by your standards.’
This has been adequately covered already, and statistics being what they are have been used duplicitously. I would recommend looking at the numbers during July 2008 to Nov 2008.
The ceasefire was broken on 4th Nov., and I believe this Israeli adventure started on that date, not at the end of December.
On a general note vis-a-vis diplomacy.
The problem with arab diplomats is that they can’t deliver anything for themselves let alone stand up for the Palestinians.
With regards Iran, I did read some months ago that the new strategy would be for Israel to ally with the arabs against the Iranians. et voila there we have it.
I don’t think you are thick. I do think though you have your head in the clouds.
You know, I was all set to respond to the tripe that Shamit just posted up there, but the one part that sums it all up for me is this: “I want President Abbas to be handed over charge on the Gaza territory”.
Hamas is the democratically elected representative of the Palestinian people. Your selective re-interpretation of events is at odds with reality.
Here is your link. Read it and learn: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
But don’t let that get in the way of your fantasy…
I think Israel wants the same thing. Armed coup notwithstanding, Hamas were elected by the Gazans.
Yet that same elected government continued to attack its neighbour. Sadly, democracy does not always mean peace – weren’t the Nazis elected?
“democracy does not always mean peace”.
Fair comment.
And neither is democracy a hindrance to Israel murdering innocent men, women and children. The deliberate targetting of a UN compound is a war crime plain and simple.
Take a look at this:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2009/01/the-idf-ground.html
Written by someone who largely has no axe to grind, who has a military background and so isn’t some bleeding heart liberal. Some quotes:
Now, either the Israeli government is composed of very stupid individuals who can’t see further than their own nose, or they are aware of the group dynamic described. If the latter then this renders most of the discussion about intentionality as mostly cant. Given a certain military culture certain types of incident will be unavoidable whenever you send the tanks in.
Lastly, does Israel really want to be judged by the standards of Hamas?
Dude – Israel claims Hamas was using it as a base for attacks. The UN denies this, but if it were true, would that also be a war crime?
You know on one level it’s a bit weird that people are surprised that IDF are filled with jarheads…
You talk of outrage Sunny, yet I recall few marches or expressions of outrage when Israel was plagued by terrorism, or during the frequent attempts by Arab nations to destroy it. Your outrage seems to me every bit as capricious as the media coverage.
This just whatabouttery isn’t it? I’ve never really supported Hamas and infact I didn’t even see a rally against them over the last year. Not sure what your point is… but it would be better to see you condemn a minister actively being dismissive about innocent lives than try and turn it around and accuse me of supporting Hamas.
I suppose Sunny I’m reacting to your consistent partiality on this issue. As Rob points out, your headline is misleading (as they have frequently been on this subject). You go on about support for Israel, but on the left most of what I read is condemnation. Fair enough – but it should apply to both sides and not just be a litany of Israeli wrongs.
I suppose I am guilty of partiality too because I can’t help reacting to what appears a “disproportionate” degree of hate being directed at the Israelis by many on the left. I wonder when anti-Zionism morphs into anti-Semitism? Oh, wait a minute, haven’t Hamas just called for Jewish kids anywhere in the world to be killed?
No side is right in this conflict, but I find it disturbing how short our memories seem and how ready we are to choose sides, demonising “the other” who funnily enough, so often turns out to be You Know Who.
So pleased you have picked up on this, hardly anybody else seems bothered. I’m not surprised that yet again a member of the Israeli Government can say what they like on the servile BBC unchallenged. This man is an appalling human being, as bad as any terrorist!
And Hamas get off scott free in your eyes for using civilians as human shields? What was someone saying about moral reletivism?
If only a small portion of the energy, hatred and bile directed at Israel was aimed at Hamas that would be somewhat more proportionate I think.
Hamas caused this latest bout of stupidity on all sides and Israel, yet again, plays into the hands of the clerical fascists in Hamas and Tehran. Sigh.
It is like watching history on a loop.
Do any of the PIcklers hold Hamas guilty of anything? Done anything wrong? Crossed a few moral lines anywhere?
Now, it is possible I have missed the posts and comments condemining Hamas – please feel free to point them out?
Oh dear. I was really revolted by this video clip. I agree that it doesn’t necessarily stretch to him welcoming or seeking out civilian deaths, but he certainly doesn’t seem to give a shit about them.
Shamit:
“An Israeli Government under Sharon and then Ohmert did more to curtail encroaching on Palestinian land and successfully pushed back Israeli settlers using the IDF than any other Israeli Government in history”
WHY NOT JUST REMOVE the settlements, pull back to the 67 line, tear down the fence, hand them cahs to build a republic (airport, port corridor, schools and the like plus a SME capital scheme to get the Palestinian economy going) and then say to the Palestinians – how do you like them apples?
If Fatah and Hamas still try to murder Israelis then the world will have its definitive answer as to what fuels the leadership of the Palestinian side of the conflict – hatred and religious fascism.
Charming. Nice party to democratically vote into power, I must say (and yes I’m being sarcastic). Deja vu, anyone ?
*************************
Apparently there have been approximately 25 reported racial incidents against Jewish people in Britain during the last week alone, along with a number of attacks in mainland Europe (Sweden etc). These are believed to be connected to the current conflict in I/P.
Perhaps PP should publish an article on this matter too at some point.
Boyo
If I had my way, the state Israel would be where Germany is now and the German people would be scattered to the four winds. But that was NEVER going to happen and an innocent people who had nothing to do with the holocaust of 4 million Jews, pays the price instead. That is why HAMAS is at war!
Now if you or anybody else has got proof that HAMAS was using that UN controlled compound to launch rockets against Israel, then present it and I’ll gladly shut the fuck up! Otherwise……
And Hamas get off scott free in your eyes for using civilians as human shields?
don’t remember saying that.
If only a small portion of the energy, hatred and bile directed at Israel
Should democracies not be criticised for killing civilians? If I was criticising the Saudi regime for example, would you be saying the same?
The Dude
Nice glossing over the actual details.
If the Axis supporting (Gee, I wonder why that was?) Palestinian, ahem, leaders had accepted the UN mandate deal the Palestinian Republic would have a standard of living similar to Israel and the region could have been a beacon of religious tolerance and economic progress……. missed that oppo bigtime.
Hamas is fighting because it is an anti semitic far right clerical fascist party that is desperate to finish the job that Adolf started.
“And Hamas get off scott free in your eyes for using civilians as human shields?”
“don’t remember saying that”
Yes, the lack of comment regarding Hamas is v apparent.
“Should democracies not be criticised for killing civilians? If I was criticising the Saudi regime for example, would you be saying the same?”
Damn right they should. But equally organisations of clerical fascists who use their own people as a shield from which to fight behind and who started this latest bout should also be held to the same moral standard.
Dude
In our prayers we say ‘If we forget you, Oh Jerusalem’, Berlin is never mentioned at all.
Yes, the lack of comment regarding Hamas is v apparent
I’ve actually criticised Hamas loads of times. But they’re not killing a hundred people every day right now. But feel free to continue your ‘whatabouttery’ continually.
and who started this latest bout should also be held to the same moral standard.
You want me to hold Hamas and Israel to the same standard?
Sunny mundea,
1. Yes they should, if they’re deliberately targetting civilians.
2. Yes they should, if they’re deliberately targetting military bases/groups and civilians are simultaneously killed in the process, if you’re dead against civilian fatalities “no matter what”.
BUT
Greater outrage and anger should be aimed at groups which primarily attack civilian targets, break ceasefires, and attack their enemies from the middle of civilian areas whilst being fully aware that their enemies will retaliate and target the same locations.
It’s a double-edged sword, but one side is sharper than the other.
At least if one believes that there should be a moral basis for the actions of the parties involved in such scenarios, especially the party one is criticising. Otherwise, all bets are off, and one should admit that they’re more outraged about scenario “a” than scenario “b” because their sympathies lie with the groups suffering in scenario “a” due to reasons of ideology and/or identity, not because of issues of morality in warfare.
So now I’m “glossing over the facts”. What facts? Israel didn’t come about by mutual consent, it was forced upon the Palestinian people (by the West and the UN). That’s like somebody stealing my car and then asking for the insurance documents. I’m getting sick and tired of this double speak on both sides. HAMAS says it what’s to see the destruction of the state of Israel, which is fair comment coming from a political body has got no arms and on legs. Meanwhile on the other side, Israel maintains that is doesn’t want to kill anyone innocent intentionally, then goes about doing exactly that, killing innocent people.
And Chairwoman, please don’t go playing the original sin with me. Jesus said on the cross
“Forgive them father, for they know not what they do”…..
I found the following comment on another forum and it rather sums up what I feel about the historical context of the present conflict between the Jews and the Palestinians.
Uri D brings up the infamous Balfour Declaration, last resort of the Zionists when they’re forced to talk about the history of their State. This so-called Declaration, which was in fact a letter from Arthur Balfour, PM of Britain, to Lord Rothschild (yes – a Jewish banker who was actually meddling in politics, let’s hope we don’t hear any more about how that sort of thing is an anti-semitic conspiracy theory) said, inter alia:
“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, IT BEING CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT NOTHING SHALL BE DONE WHICH MAY PREJUDICE THE CIVIL AND RELIGIOUS RIGHTS OF EXISTING NON-JEWISH COMMUNITIES IN PALESTINE, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.” This scotches the latest Zionist lie that there never was a Palestine, and Palestinians have had their rights prejudiced ever since.
Dude – I’m a Jew. We don’t have original sin. We also don’t have Jesus.
This isn’t meant to offend anybody, it’s just a statement of facts, as was my original comment.
Yes, because they’re all human beings and should therefore be subject to the same standards when it comes to moral failures in warfare, irrespective of their ideologies or forms of government (the same therefore applies to dictatorships).
Correspondingly…..
Isn’t Hamas now a democratically-elected party ? (It is, of course).
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Irrespective of lengthy, multiple discussion threads and heated arguments between people on both sides of the fence, to be honest with you I think that the bottom line is the following:
Yes.
I think that’s the main question which needs to be answered by those protesting against Israel’s actions in this situation. Outrage is fine, especially if you’re against the concept of civilian fatalities full-stop during warfare, but if anyone can suggest alternative responses & military tactics by the IDF which they would deem to be acceptable, then I’m sure we’re all ears.
What Jai said.
I’m sorry Chairwoman but as a Catholic, I was offended by your original comments and again I ask, what facts? If you’re saying that the Palestinians were directly responsible for the murder of four million Jews in Germany, then it should be me apologizing to you.
BTW: Calling HAMAS racist reminds me when white people in South Africa used to accuse Black people of the same thing. I’m NOT saying that it’s impossible for black people to harbour such thoughts, what I am saying is if they did, they’d have a legitimate reason for thinking so. I can’t imagine this not applying to HAMAS given their history and their situation. What HAMAS has to learn is that hate is not the key to their liberation. Justice is!
Dude – Have you read what I said?
The facts I am referring to are:-
a) In our prayers we say ‘If we forget you oh Jerusalem’, and make no reference to Berlin or any other German town.
b) Judaism does not have original sin as a concept.
c) Judaism does not have Jesus at all.
And I very much doubt that you can find me calling Hamas anything.
So what on earth offended you ‘as a Catholic’. If it’s that Jewish philosophy differs from Catholicism, then, I assure you, you needn’t be Jewish.
I hope I have set your mind at rest on that.
You want me to hold Hamas and Israel to the same standard?
Of course! They are a democratically elected government, or so I keep being told by people on this website. They aren’t some unrelated guerilla group that pops up and terrorises Gazans and Israelis. They’re supposed to be governing Gaza. They’re supposed to be acting in the interests of the people they were elected to govern. Why on earth wouldn’t you hold Hamas and Israel to the same standards? Surely they have exactly the same obligations not to target other states’ civilians or use their own civilians as human shields as any other government?
Chairwoman
What bother’s me about you (and the Chief Rabbi Andrew Sacks) is that your Jewishness is more important to you than your humanity. All of us have the ability to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong.
Me being Catholic does in no way give me the right to be less than a human being. Being Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or whatever should never be subtracted from one’s common humanity to a fellow man. So please answer my original question. What exactly did the Palestinians do to your people for the Palestinians to deserve THIS! If you think that Israel is yours by act of GOD, think again! Because I’m telling you as a human being that you’re dead wrong.
Katy
I couldn’t agree with your last comment more but also remember this. We the voters, deserve WHAT we vote for. It is not for outsiders to disagree with a democratic decision taken elsewhere on this earth. The people of Gaza knew what they were voting for, before they voted for HAMAS and in a couple of weeks time the same will happen in Israel.
Daniel Finklestein
Israel acts because the world won’t defend it
The Dude
My Jewishness comes first because that’s where non-Jews put it.
It’s always an issue, and I don’t mean I/P at all. I mean all those snidey little remarks that imply we’ve all got millions salted away, or that we got our jobs by influence, or that we’re secretly manipulating something. You know, the sort of remark you made about Lord Rothschild some comments back.
And they’re not subtle or behind-your-back sort of remarks. They’re in your face. All the effing time.
Do you like it if you’re the first person looked at if some sort of street crime has been committed? Because you’re black. Like hell you do. Well it’s the same.
Geddit?
For many years my ‘best friend’ was English. You all know what I mean. We had been friends since we were seventeen, Or so I thought. Suddenly there were remarks about her ‘friends’ who were thinking of voting BNP for starters, and debates about what ‘white’ meant. Of course, she didn’t mean me, but she did. I don’t have the nose, sometimes I wish I did, it would solve a lot of problems, but I have a definite Mediterranean look, even more when I was younger. But the final straw was a petty thing. We were watching the Oscars, and she kept going on about how ‘Jewish’ Stephen Speilberg looks, which, of course he does, but what she meant, and I wasn’t being paranoid, was Jewish equals ugly. And now we live on the same street and don’t even pass each others houses.
So why do I put Jewish first? Why shouldn’t I? Everybody else does.
‘I’ve actually criticised Hamas loads of times. But they’re not killing a hundred people every day right now’
This is the thing. If it is your judgement that Hamas is not the one with primary responsibility for the deaths amongst those they govern, then you _are_, to some degree, supporting them. You may not realise that you are supporting them, because you think that is a simple fact, not a controversy in which you are taking a position.
But really, it is. For example, it seems to me that while Israel could no doubt bomb less and more wisely, it is hard to see how it could not retaliate at all. Whereas I do see that Hamas could have chosen not to have formally declared war on Israel, and could have choosen not to keep launching rockets.
Maybe that’s wrong, and I know the arguments against it. But I really don’t see it as so obviously wrong it can be dismissed as uncontroversially factually false.
A supporter of Gordon Brown would judge that global economic factors, bankers, or whatever, are the cause of the credit crunch. An opponent of him would say it is really his policy decisions. Take a view on that controversy, and you take sides.
A supporter of George Bush would claim that most civilians killed in the war in Iraq were actually killed by sectarian and/or terrorist bombs. A critic would say that given a strategy of indefinite occupation by unprepared idiots, such things were inevitable.
Hamas could sign a truce tomorrow. If they choose not to, a key influence on that decision will be the level of de-facto support they are currently getting for their positions, arguments and strategy from third parties.
Chairman and Marvin
You are HUMAN! This I know with every core of my being. You are not super-human or sub-human, just HUMAN, like me and everybody else on this forum.
For a long time I hated white people. I had good reason. History and personal experience had taught me well. But a trip to South Africa and a chance comment by a member of the AWB got me thinking. You see at that precise moment I learned that I had more in common with my enemy than that of my supposed friends and colleagues. You find humanity in the strangest of places and the strangest of times. Even within a blatant racist. Writing people off, completely, is always a bad option. That’s what you did with your “friend”. I’m NOT going to do that with you.
Actually Dude, it was she who wrote me off.
I kept on with it for a couple of years after that, it was just that I was more aware.
Then one day, I phoned to tell her that a very old friend of ours was extremely ill. She said that she was too busy to speak, and that she’d phone me back some time. I said that if she didn’t want to, she didn’t have to, and she never did.
I’ll say this again.
Fear and hate is the mind killer and the wages of sorrow.
Why do people find it so hard to make an unequivocal condemnation of Israel’s bombing of the schools?
Why does every mention of “horror” at what has happpened have to be watered down by criticism of Hamas, or saying we should shut up and talk about Zimbabwe instead?
We might as well say “well it’s terrible what has happened but what about Mugabe?” Why is it so hard for people to say, “Israel has done something unconscionable, and unjustifiable.”?
Fear and hate is the mind killer and the wages of sorrow.
True. I like your post #51
Been there and done that. A long time “white” friend of mine at the Express and Star, Wolverhampton wrote me off for merely pointing out that she herself had a fair climb before reaching the heights of enlightenment, despite her leftist leanings. And she really took offence when I told her that she and her Guardian reading friends poised a greater threat to the Black community than the National Front. You can’t win them all, all of the time but that doesn’t mean that my ex friend is any less human. It just means that she won’t talk to me anymore.
Dude (@31 and 43) my understanding was it was at least 6 million, not 4 million, or do you know something else the rest of us don’t?
It’s not a casual thing to “lose” 2,000,000 lives. They are not just a statistic.
Moving on…
I am coming to conclude that in the same way as not all Met Police officers are racist, but the Met Police can be said to be institutionally racist, that while not all leftists are anti-semites, a large element of the left is increasingly culturally anti-semitic.
I’m sure that none of the posters (ie, Sunny, Sid, Ala et al) on PP are anti-semitic, but the milieu in which they commentate (the so-called “progressive left”) is. This means that certain assumptions and prejudices underpin any discussion on issues pertaining to Israel, for example. It is not so much that Israel does wrong, as it often does, but its wrongs loom so much larger than those of others…
They’re supposed to be acting in the interests of the people they were elected to govern. Why on earth wouldn’t you hold Hamas and Israel to the same standards?
Because one is a democracy and the other a terrorist org. Incidentally, if it is to be treated by the same standard, then why doesn’t Israel talk to it?
Le,e just quickly expand on that.
If Hamas is to be trule treated as a govt, then Israel is guilty of not only trying to cripple the govt by withhold electricity supplies, its port and its airspace, but also invading another sovereign country and killing its citizens.
So yes, I am holding up the Israeli govt to a higher standard… because I’d rather like in Israel than a Hamas govt. It’s just that Israel is behaving as stupidly as Hamas right now with regards to civilians.
that while not all leftists are anti-semites, a large element of the left is increasingly culturally anti-semitic.
Oh please, shut the fuck up Boyo. Just because we’re not slavishly pro-Israel doesn’t make us anti-semitic. This is why I mostly disregard what you say.
Missed the point as usual Sunny, or maybe not – you’re usually at your most vulgar when the truth hurts.
What in the world does culturally anti-semitic mean?
Who cares… these guys bore me… all they do is throw accusations of anti-semitism around. Boyo is just Lee Jasper, redux.
Dude,
I repect your understanding of the historical back ground to the creation of an artificial Jewish State. A debate should be held on this subject, to really understand the present conflict. Did MOSSAD colborate with the SS in mid 30’s? in setting up of settlements on Arab land. I am hungry for more knowlege on the subject
Uri D brings up the infamous Balfour Declaration, last resort of the Zionists when they’re forced to talk about the history of their State. This so-called Declaration,Uri D brings up the infamous Balfour
Heh. It’s quite clear what I mean. I don’t think the argument is too subtle for you to understand – I give you more credit for that – its simply that you don’t like it.
Amnesty International calls for a truce and explicitly claims civilians are being targeted:
“civilians – particularly the 1.5 million Palestinians trapped in Gaza – continue to both be targeted and suffer disproportionately in this conflict”
The Telegraph reports on what appears to be an organised civilian killing:
“They said that after the Israeli army first took the town on Saturday night soldiers had ordered about 100 members of the clan to gather in a single house owned by Wael Samouni around dawn on Sunday.
At 6.35am on Monday the house was repeatedly shelled with appalling loss of civilian life.
A handful of survivors, some wounded, others carrying dead or dying infants, made it on foot to Gaza’s main north-south road before they were given lifts to hospital. Three small children were buried in Gaza City that afternoon.
According to the survivors between 60 and 70 family members had been killed by shrapnel and falling masonry.”
Are the IDF’s apologists here going to condemn this, or just explain it away and insult me for drawing attention to it? What is going on is atrocious, and there can be no justification for it.
I am not an apologist for Israel, although those who I criticise prefer to label me as one. Instead I argue for balance because I regard partiality as part of the problem. In the past I have argued the Palestinian cause with those who can only see Israel’s sign of the coin and received the same kind of abuse. But for the sake of balance, I’ll direct you to the Guardian story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel
“It’s a massacre,” Samouni said. “I’m 32 years old and I’ve never seen such things as this. I couldn’t help myself or any of those around me. We just want to live in peace.”
At his bedside was his brother Nael, 36, who lives in a house close by. His wife and daughter had been in Wael’s house yesterday morning at the time of the shelling: both were killed.
“I wanted to go and join them the night before, but it was too dangerous to go out. If anyone moved he would be shot,” Nael said. “Then when I heard the bombing this morning I saw people running. I saw an injured man fall to the ground. I ran to help, but there was an Israeli sniper in the house next door who shouted: ‘Leave him alone.’ We couldn’t rescue anyone.”
As he ran, Israeli troops fired over their heads and then ordered them to lift up their shirts to show they carried no weapons under their clothes. “We just made it out and here to the hospital,” Nael said. Then, in a moment of anger, he pointed the blame. “Hamas is responsible for this. They are starving us, now they are killing us,” he said. “They asked the Israelis to enter but where is the resistance? They are hiding. All the leaders of Hamas are underground. It’s just the civilians confronting the Israeli army. I don’t like Hamas and I don’t want them ruling Gaza.”
That’s quite bizarre: instead of joining the rest of the world in condemning Israel’s war crimes, all you can do is dig out a report where one Palestinian person is quoted as blaming Hamas rather than Israel.
I suppose it wouldn’t matter to you if Israel killed over 1,000 people in this conflict: you still couldn’t bring yourself to condemn them. That is being an apologist for them.
I’m sure I could point to a hundred articles where Palestinians instead blame Israel more than they blame Hamas, if they blame Hamas at all. But you’re not really interested in hearing that argument so what’s the point. No one has said that Hamas bears no responsibility for what is going on: but constantly trying to place all blame onto their shoulders is a transparent attempt to avoid criticising Israel whilst pretending to care about Palestinian civilian casualties.
Hamas and the IDF appear to be in a race to the bottom of the moral cesspit.
“”“They asked the Israelis to enter but where is the resistance? They are hiding. All the leaders of Hamas are underground. It’s just the civilians confronting the Israeli army. I don’t like Hamas and I don’t want them ruling Gaza.””"
Exactly. The Far Right Islamist mindset in a nutshell. Cause as many of your own civilians to be killed and call it victory and resistance.
The Israelis are no better – they have no qualms of murdering palestinian civilans. How far they have fallen in the last thirty years.
This could go on and on and on.
Thank heavens for Israeli nuclear weapons or this could escalate into a general ME war. Israeli nukes have actually saved the lives of tens of thousands of Arab Conscripts/cannon fodder over the last thirty years.
“I suppose it wouldn’t matter to you if Israel killed over 1,000 people in this conflict”
Actually, it all matters to me – that’s part of the problem. I can’t begin to imagine the grief a mother or father must feel for the loss of their child. I regard the entire conflict as a monumental human tragedy. But because I take it very seriously I am wary of taking sides and challenge those that do: it is precisely that kind of thinking that sustains the conflict.
I suppose I tend to challenge assumptions about Israel here because I regard it as part of this trend. I have the deepest sympathy for the Palestinian people. i quite understand why they chose Hamas and why Hamas developed – for much the same reason the Israeli state is now so belligerent – and as a result I see it as a tragedy that only determined external mediation will solve (and which is, frankly, unlikely). In the meantime I will continue to challenge simple-thinking, which is largely what got us here in the first place.
I am not asking people to take sides – it is quite sad how people accuse those of criticising Israel as ‘taking a side’ – all I am asking is, can you unequivocally condemn this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4162193/Gaza-medics-describe-horror-of-strike-which-killed-70.html
Not with any caveats, not with any excuses, not with any evasion – because what the IDF have done here is unjustifiable. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the past, in the here and now I do not understand why people cannot condemn such carnage – unless of course, they have in fact taken a side but wish to pretend they have not, and instead accuse others of doing so when criticism of their ’side’ is made.
Didn’t you refer to “IDF apologists” Ryyan? I’m not the Pope, what is there for me to condemn?! Awful things happen in war – it is their nature. Any atrocity deserves condemnation. Shall we condemn the fire-bombing of Dresden while we are at it? Or more recently the carpet-bombing of Iraq? How about every bus bombing in Israel? Or indeed the Israeli bombing of the King David Hotel, where 200 were killed? I presume you condemn the Holocaust? Your argument is fatuous and you completely avoid the real issues: side-taking really is easier, and far more fun. Ra.
I’m not the Pope, what is there for me to condemn?! Awful things happen in war – it is their nature
Yeah but all day you come here asking us to condemn this and condemn that. Why not do the same yourself?
I condemn all of those things, when they happened, and if they happened before them in the past, of course I condemn them. Why you cannot condemn this I don’t know. I’ve condemned the attacks on Jewish people in response to Israel’s actions, and so have you. Why is it not in your ability to condemn this? Or is the truth that doing so would undermine your support for Israel?
Clearly your agenda supersedes your “humanity”.
Any atrocity deserves condemnation. I agree, so what’s different about this one?
Awful things happen in war – it is their nature – so that means we shouldn’t condemn them? That is being an apologist. It’s okay for them to murder Palestinians, it happens, now let’s forget about it and condemn other people for not condemning other atrocities. That’s pretty fatuous and entirely disingenious.
Good line, I think we’re seeing that a lot on here recently…
Boyo
For me, the fact that one Jew died at the hands of those murdering Nazi bastards, is one death too many. But if you want to play numbers go right ahead, you sicko bean counter!
Let me make one thing crystal clear. I don’t care whether the Chairwoman is Jewish or not or if the word “Jerusalem” is included in her prayer because given the present situation, it is irrelevant. Call me a anti-Semite, I’ve been call worse but like HAMAS, I’m not going to go away. The Jewish State landed upon the Palestinian people and they have had to carry the can for a crime they didn’t commit. THAT IS WRONG! Now until you and others get your heads around this one unmoveable fact. the killings and murder will continue. Your choice!
The Common Humanist
Let me get this right.
The Palestinians are angry because the Jews took their land, while the Jews are angry that the Palestinians didn’t accept a deal for the Jews to illegally occupy Palestinian land.
But I’ll stand corrected if I’m wrong.
Ryyan – What does “Any atrocity deserves condemnation.” mean to you? I’m just not interested in playing your childish games.
Sunny – I don’t recall asking you to condemn anything, just to demonstrate some balance.
Dude – pace Sunny, fuck off. Pulling you up for “missing” 2 million Jewish dead does not make me a bean counter, it makes you an arsehole.
Dude – Whether you like it or not, Jews consider Israel ‘our’ land too, we’ve considered it ‘our’ land for getting on for 6,000 (six thousand – just in case you want to knock a couple of thousand off for fun – yeah I’m a bean counter too), and that was the point of my mentioning the prayer, O.K?
And as for Hamas going away? You think Israel’s going to disappear quietly into the ocean? Forget it.
Oh, and I’m not going anywhere either.
But thank you for making me remember why Israel has to exist.
“”The Palestinians are angry because the Jews took their land, while the Jews are angry that the Palestinians didn’t accept a deal for the Jews to illegally occupy Palestinian land”"
Yeah, like Jews are foreign to Palestine. Aye right.
6000+ years. Do you realise that it is only in the century or so following the Mamluk conquest of the Levant in the late 1200’s that there slowly became a muslim majority in Palestine?
Anyway, thats an aside. The bald facts are that the Palestinian leaders could have accepted the UN offer in 48 but no they and the surrounding Arab States tried to finish the Nazis work.
Israel has been no better in may ways since finding itself with Gaza and the West Bank to administer and through the odious settler movement, land grab.
When I was at Uni in the early 90’s there seemed enough moderates on both sides for a viable two state solution.
Then the Israeli far right murdered Rabin, the American Right cornered Clinton domestically and Arafat turned out to be quite a fecking shite as I suspected.
Now am not certain – unless Hamas changes and the Israeli Right changes (as it is sure to be elected soon) then I don’t see much hope for Palestinian or Israeli civilians.
Common humanist @80:
Thank you for a bloody good summary of the middle east farce – cuased by the only nastion ever to have been created on religious grounds alone. But:
‘Now am not certain – unless Hamas changes and the Israeli Right changes (as it is sure to be elected soon) then I don’t see much hope for Palestinian or Israeli civilians.’
You are forgetting the small change taking place in America on Jan 20, when a black guy takes over. There is a change coming…and I hope it ends in Israeli zionism humiliated and its weapons of mass destruction frozen. That should make it more of an even fight, and we’ll see if the Israeli’s then have the guts to go around killing helpless children.
I’m glad Boyo deems it childish to condemn a country he supports when it commits war crimes, and is open about his hypocrisy in ranting at others to condemn various attacks on Israel and Jews. I guess it shows that his principles are pretty non-existent and all that is important to some people is national or cultural loyalty.
Apart from Pakistan.
they and the surrounding Arab States tried to finish the Nazis work.
i don’t think that is a fair comparison TCH..not fair at all…tight tshirt or not
Rayyan let’s continue this conversation when you grow up.
It’s amazing – you will fling any insult and make any excuse not to do the right thing and condemn the country you declare slavish allegiance to. Yes, that’s really the epitome of maturity.
I’ll ask again: why do you call upon others to condemn attacks on Israel but then say it is childish, wrong, pope-like and not your concern when other ask you to condemn Israel? You’re obviously not concerned with justice, only with making the case for “your side”. Very mature indeed.
Sunny,
I’m afraid you’ve misrepresented me. I absolutely and categorically did not try to justify Shitreet’s words.
Here’s what I said in repsonse to Mike’s assertion that Shitreet had said it was okay to target civilians (same link as in your post):
I saw that interview and this isn’t completely accurate. He certainly made no bones about the fact that we should expect Israel to return fire, even if the incoming emanates from a civilian area or building. In my view, such a policy risks – or at least could potentially risk if taken to its logical conclusion – indefensible civilian casualties. In Shitreet’s view, Israel is targeting the source of the attack upon it, and if this means civilians get hurt, the responsibility lies only with Hamas. This isn’t good enough for me, but it’s still not the same as “targeting civilians”. More like a reckless disregard for their safety (not in all cases, but some).
And at 1:19am in the same thread, I said:
Sorry Mike, but there is nothing in what I agree is the objectionable Shitreet’s words that supports your assertion that Israel has a policy of targeting civilians. His “so what” followed other comments where he’d made it clear that, in his view, a civilian building which was being used to launch shells or rockets at Israeli forces was, by definition, a legitimate military target. His dismissal of inevitable civlian casualties as the sole responsibility of Hamas and no-one else doesn’t wash with me, but targeting of civilians it is not.
And at 1:24am
Shitreet’s lack of concern about the levels of collateral damage Israel will inflict by returning fire every time, no matter the origin of the attack on it or the proximity of large numbers of civilians, is already morally repugnant. There is no need to turn it into something else.
And at 1:33am:
Anybody who thinks Israel has a right to return fire inreturn fire all circumstances no matter what, should try a little thought experiment:
Suppose Israel’s return fire having taken an incoming shell had a 50% chance of killing 10,000 five year olds. Assuming all right-thinking people would deny Israel’s right to return fire in such circumstances, the pricniple has already been established that Israel cannot simply absolve herself of all responsibility for her actions simply becasue Hamas are a bunch of war criminals.
Next, work back from 10,000 to discover your individual tipping point.
And at 1:47am:
Firing at targets when you know this will result in civlian casualties is not the same as targeting civilians. It might still be a war crime, but it doesn’t justify your description of Israeli policy as “targeting civilians”.
And at 1:54am:
the rules of war do not proscribe every act that will inevitably lead to civilian casualties; they simply require that actors balance the risk to civlians against legitimate military objectives. Shitreet’s blanket defence of Israel’s right to return fire in all circumstances necessarily absolves Israel of all responsibility to make any such assessment. It is morally indefensible.
Have I made my point, do you think? Do I get a retraction of your claim that I tried to , Sunny?
Last line should say:
Have I made my point, do you think? Do I get a retraction of your claim that I tried to justify Shitreet’s words, Sunny?
Boyo
I’d rather be the asshole than the shit that’s comes out of it and alas that’s what you’ve been spouting, verbal shit. I’ve heard all kind of figures mentioned about the numbers of people who died during the holocaust ( and not all of them were Jews). So I’ll leave it to you to come up with a exact and precise calculation of every last civilian person who was murdered at the hands of the NAZI’S. When you’ve finally come up with a definitve figure, let me and the rest of the world know, so that we can stop this foolishness. Like I said before EVERY LIFE MATTERS.
Chairwoman: I have hope for you because you said something VERY interesting. You used the word “TOO”. I’m hoping that this implies that the Jews do not hold exclusive rights over the lands that makeup Israel/Palestine and that if fact any claim is shared equally with others. If this is indeed the case, then me and you have made headway. This can ONLY be a good thing because if we can do this, so can they!
Hey guys, it’s okay because the jewgod said the land belongs to them.
Why let a silly thing like humanity come in the way of their illegal land grab?
Doesn’t Islam go for the God to Moses ‘Promised Land’ deal? I thought that Moses was a prophet to Islam. Not that I think it has any relevance but I am curious.