Gaza demo: thoughts and pictures
The demonstration for solidarity with the people of Gaza was earlier today. A few points, and more pictures if you continue reading.
1) I know some people will be disappointed, but I saw no mention of Jews, a bit of shouting of ‘down with Israeli terrorism’ and rare, scattered Hizb ut-Tahrir flags. Didn’t see anyone carrying the sign ‘We Are Hamas’ (and rightly too, because I’m bloody well not expressing solidarity with terrorists).
This reminds of the controversy around the earlier ‘March for Free Expression’ demo, following the Motoons, whereby various Muslims were accusing free-speechers of siding with the BNP because they were also at the march. Yet, with the shoe on the other foot, the comments boxes of Harry’s Place is overflowing with people asking if I was comfortable marching with ‘Nazis and fascists’. Love the hypocrisy. Also, bizarre that when all Muslims get accused of being fascists, those comments don’t get deleted.
2) This Guardian report says there was a sea of Hamas and Hizbullah flags. Its absolute bollocks – I saw hardly any, and you can see the pictures as proof. 90% were Palestinian flags. Some website called Insider (or something) had the Hizbullah guy’s picture, but they were easily outnumbered by the ‘Free Palestine’ MAB signs.
3) George Galloway MP, the pompous fool, was speaking. Hardly anyone cheered when they announced him. Oh dear… I even overheard a bunch of religious looking Muslims asking why they keep getting him to speak. Heh. The SWP stands were not very popular.
4) I estimate around 10,000 people attended. The atmosphere at Trafalgar Square was friendly, though full of ‘brothers’ bussed down from the north. I’ve heard there were altercations at the embassy demonstrations after (which I didn’t bother going to).
5) One thing did annoy me about the whole thing. As were heading back down the tube, two hijabi girls tried to get people to shout ‘We Are Hamas’…. but were almost immediately drowned out by ‘Free Free Palestine’ before I even had the chance to get annoyed. Then they started shouting ‘Allah Hu Akbar’. This also happened a bit in the march.
Listen up people. If I want to hear religious cries, I’ll go to the Mosque. Kapiche? I don’t, because I’m not a Muslim. I came to the march to express solidarity with Palestinians, not hear religious chants. Any wonder why more non-Muslims don’t come to these rallies? Because they think they’re dominated by religious nuts.
Muslims aren’t alone in this – go to any rally on Sikh human rights / 1984, and you get people shouting ‘Khalistan Zindabad‘ or ‘Raj Karega Khalsa’… which has no relevance to the fact that its a human rights issue not a religious issue. I wish brown people were more politically mature, honestly.
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You didn’t try and storm the Israeli embassy then?
How did you figure it was 10,000 people? Media reports 5000…
Sunny
“1) I know some people will be disappointed, but I saw no mention of Jews, a bit of shouting of ‘down with Israeli terrorism’ and rare, scattered Hizb ut-Tahrir flags. Didn’t see anyone carrying the sign ‘We Are Hamas’ (and rightly too, because I’m bloody well not expressing solidarity with terrorists).
This reminds of the controversy around the earlier ‘March for Free Expression’ demo, following the Motoons, whereby various Muslims were accusing free-speechers of siding with the BNP because they were also at the march. Yet, with the shoe on the other foot, the comments boxes of Harry’s Place is overflowing with people asking if I was comfortable marching with ‘Nazis and fascists’. Love the hypocrisy. Also, bizarre that when all Muslims get accused of being fascists, those comments don’t get deleted.”
You should check out HP now – Gene is scurrying around trying to find people who have pics of protestors with Hamas (or Hezbollah) flags so they can prove it was a march in support of terrorism.
Its also a bit strange to complain about the religious element in the march then make totally irrelevant comments about “brothers” bussed down from the North or “hijabis tr(ying) to get people to shout ‘We Are Hamas’” (what relevance is what they are wearing Sunny?)
“I wish brown people were more politically mature, honestly.”
Quite
There were about 3000 people at the Burma demo. This was easily three times bigger, possibly more. Trafalgar square was overflowing, and that was just after people had marched down… and I kept seeing more people come in and people leaving.
I’d say over 10,000 over… though not the 50,000 or so the StWC are saying.
Beavis – erm, no. Not my style.
Did you participate in the shoe throughing contest?
Was you in disguise, because I didn’t see you there.
I attended an Al-Quds rally a while back, it was rather intimating having people scream Allah Akbar and chanting for Hizbollah. That must have put off some of the socialist/communist types in attendance too. Galloway initially got booed so the organisers shooshed the crowd.
Funny, that the Guardian reports a sea of Hamas & Hizbollah flags. That’s what they’d want to see, expect to see. Makes you wonder if they bothered to turn up at all…
Going by the Guardian report, it doesn’t look like they turned up at all. Must have filed the report from the office… bloody shameful.
Blah:
Its also a bit strange to complain about the religious element in the march then make totally irrelevant comments about “brothers” bussed down from the North or “hijabis tr(ying) to get people to shout ‘We Are Hamas’” (what relevance is what they are wearing Sunny?)
I think there is a link… though the ‘hijabis’ were description than passing comment on them. I think its the over-infusion of the religious element that makes these events completely dominated by the mosque going element that are, largely, politically irrelevant.
Unless these lot can get more white people to come to the event, it remains politically irrelevant. And that requires a toning down of the religious nature – because its not a religious struggle. It’s a fight over land.
I hope you fools enjoy the dhimmi tax and Sharia law in about 5 years. I’m headed to America, where there’s still a bit of liberty to be got and an individual can still keep a firearm to protect ones self. Tootles…
Ian – yes, please fuck off. The more stupid people that leave this country, the better.
comrade – No I didn’t. Overslept, as I was working late last night.
Ian McShane @ 8,
Could you not fuck off sooner? Like yesterday?
Pip.
‘Tis a shame that the average IQ of America will drop by a dozen points or so. Whilst ours rises proportionately.
Huzzah!
Psycho.
Sunny, I agree about the religious dominance of some of these marches which have put even Muslims off. It’s totally counter-productive and defies the purpose of a demonstration where you are meant to be delivering a message to the public in a language they understand.
Sunny,
You say you are expressing solidarity with Palestinians rather than terrorists.
You do appreciate that there are many Palestinians who wish to see Hamas defeated in this conflict?
perhaps the Guardian brought in Rory Carroll into do the research on the demo.
I ran into Peter Tatchell amongst others, and don’t forget Jewish Socialist Group…and lots of Green Party members other than Peter and I.
Sadly the slaughter seems to be accelerating with a ground invasion…although over at Harry’s Place they are saying this is a kind of non violent move aimed at reducing casualities.
Ian McShane @ 8…
You know, Dennis, you could have picked a more imaginative psuedonym…
its not a religious struggle. It’s a fight over land.
Not a religious struggle? Oh dear. Who will tell Hamas?
shit I can only hope that nuclear asap
Sunny says:
This Guardian report says there was a sea of Hamas and Hizbullah flags
The Guardian report he links to actually says:
The crowd was a sea of Palestinian, Hamas and Hezbollah flags as well as the red standards of leftwing groups and placards denouncing the Israeli bombardment of Gaza.
Yep, another reliable blogger.
its not a religious struggle. It’s a fight over land.
reader
“Not a religious struggle? Oh dear. Who will tell Hamas?”
The people coming from thousands of miles away all over the world to take the Palestinians land because “G-d gave this land to the Jewish people in the Bible”
marvin
“I attended an Al-Quds rally a while back,”
Why on earth since if you are the same marvin you are a rabid zionist
“it was rather intimating having people scream Allah Akbar and chanting for Hizbollah. That must have put off some of the socialist/communist types in attendance too. Galloway initially got booed so the organisers shooshed the crowd.”
The Al Quds rally is a purely religious event – this is clear from the name – organised by supporters of the Iranian government – why would socialist/communist types attend anyway?
I’m going to go to the next demo with a placard reading:
“We are all Houmous”
We’ll see if anyone gets the Mighty Zohan reference…
why would socialist/communist types attend anyway
Best ask them, I guess.
http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2007/09/29/as-bad-as-it-gets-al-quds-day/
Grace the collie is nuts.
Sunny
“I think there is a link… though the ‘hijabis’ were description than passing comment on them. I think its the over-infusion of the religious element that makes these events completely dominated by the mosque going element that are, largely, politically irrelevant.”
Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation – if it was just a socialist worker march they wouldnt get anywhere near the numbers so they need Muslim organisations to get the number up.
“Unless these lot can get more white people to come to the event, it remains politically irrelevant.”
these events ARE politically irrelevant. Does anyone think that the Israeli government is suddenly going to think “Oh maybe we are wrong” or the lackeys in the Egyptian government will think “lets say goodbye to the millions in US Aid we are creaming off , give up our luxury lifestyles and open the Gaza border”. Or that the UK government has any influence over Israel in any case?
A MILLION people marched against the Iraq war- didnt do much good did it?
” And that requires a toning down of the religious nature – because its not a religious struggle. It’s a fight over land.”
True -its not a fight of Islam vs Judaism (in fact those are probably the two closest religions on the planet to each other) though of course being a holy land with holy places there is that religious aspect.
The zionists have been very crafty in emphasising that they are fighting those evil Muslims as part of the war on terror- but the Palestinian struggle has always been a national one and, as US Evangelicals choose to ignore, 30% of Palestinians are Christian (the original Christians)
In fact the notion of the religious nature of demonstrations is problematic. Demonstrations are a secular inventions and many Muslims avoid them because they dont think they are part of Islam or they dont think there is much point or they achieve anything (its probably more worthwhile to work the extra day and give money to the Palestinians or from a religous point of view to pray) or they dont agree with nationalistic elements, dont believe in co operating with secular/ non-Muslim organistaions (this is the HT line) , dont like the anger and shouting at these events, the blocking and inconvenience to others they cause, dissaprove of the mixing of the sexes etc etc
Things like Al Quds Day originate from Iranian clerics who take a different view (one could argue Shiasm is the opposition/protest movement within Islam)
However we could say these events are useful since they channel/diffuse young peoples anger – some people get so angry they resort to criminality or at an extreme terrorism. At least it engages them in the political process in a lawful albeit fruitless manner.
tim
“Sunny,
You say you are expressing solidarity with Palestinians rather than terrorists.
You do appreciate that there are many Palestinians who wish to see Hamas defeated in this conflict?”
The number who wish to see Hamas “defeated” in the way Israel is trying – but blockade bombing their fellow Palestinians is surely an infitesimable amount.
Israel doesn’t have special bombs which only kill Hamas members.
I suggest you look at the demos in the West Bank amongst Israeli Arabs and the comments by Mahmoud Abbas himself.
25 – Blah.
Thats precisely what I have done
Abbas blames Hamas for bloodshed
Abbas said Hamas were warned not to end the truce otherwise mayhem and bloodshed would follow [AFP]
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has blamed Hamas for triggering Israel’s deadly raids on Gaza, by not extending a six-month truce with the Jewish state.
He also blamed Hamas, which controls the coastal Gaza Strip territory, for disrupting national unity talks that could have paved the way for general and presidential elections.
“We have warned of this grave danger,” he said in Cairo, Egypt, on Sunday.
“We talked to them [Hamas] and we told them, ‘please, we ask you, do not end the truce. Let the truce continue and not stop”, so that we could have avoided what happened.”
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122813459308175.html
The demonstrations on the West Bank have been small and involved Hamas and Fatah supporters being seperated by the PA security forces.
True -its not a fight of Islam vs Judaism
Oh, another one who needs to tell Hamas what’s what. They’re obviously confused, poor dears.
30% of Palestinians are Christian
You’ll need to set the BBC straight too. It reckons the Christian population of the occupied territories is under 3% of the total:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4499668.stm
You do appreciate that there are many Palestinians who wish to see Hamas defeated in this conflict?
Tim, I wish people like yourself had listened to Mahmoud Abbas earlier, not just when he starts blaming Hamas. Then we wouldn’t have 400+ civilians dead and many more to come, would we?
tim
Oh dear you havent been keeping up
Abbas threatens to abandon peace talks with Israel
“RAMALLAH, West Bank (AFP) — Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas threatened on Wednesday to abandon peace talks with Israel so as not to support its deadly “aggression” against Gaza.
In televised comments, Abbas said he “would not hesitate to stop” the negotiations “if they go against our interests and offer a support to aggression,” a reference to the five-day-old Israeli bombardment of Gaza that has killed at least 393 Palestinians.
He denounced the bombardment as a “barbaric and criminal aggression.”"
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jC7w7eY-Y-rpWjZTuVMggzcHEsiw
Abbas slams Gaza ground offensive
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/10694832.asp?scr=1
Report: Abbas to release hundreds of Hamas prisoners
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3649580,00.html
——————————–
reader
30% of Palestinians are Christian
“You’ll need to set the BBC straight too. It reckons the Christian population of the occupied territories is under 3% of the total:”
Oh dear reader you ignore the diaspora
“In Palestine before the creation of Israel estimates range up to as much as 40%, but mass emigration has slashed the number still present to 3.8%”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christian
Q. What caused the emigration of all these Palestinian Christians and the existence of a diaspora?
A.The formation of the state of Israel
“True -its not a fight of Islam vs Judaism
Oh, another one who needs to tell Hamas what’s what. They’re obviously confused, poor dears.”
How about their leader?
“Well, we don’t fight the Jews because they’re Jews, but because they are occupiers. If the Arabs occupied us, we’ll fight them too. Why is everybody so worried about our religiosity anyway? If an Arab official for example wore an Islamic looking turban, he would be sending wrong signals. But when Israeli and American officials don the Jewish kipot (skull cap), that’s not a problem, nobody is worried about religiosity.” (Khaled Mashaal, April 2005)
The successful “targeted” killing of Nizar Rayyan
Well done Israel!
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-01/03/content_10596803_3.htm
400+ civilians dead
In Sunnyworld, all the Gaza dead are civilians, apparently.
I wish people like yourself had listened to Mahmoud Abbas earlier
Never mind Nizar Rayyan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7807430.stm
Hamas is not responsible for any of this, oh no. Blame Tim, that makes sense.
Its a remarkable claim that you make Sunny, that no Hamas fighters have been killed.
None.
Just civilians.
Never mind Nizar Rayyan:
“When Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007, he said there would be no dialogue with Fatah, the secular Palestinian movement it ousted, “only the sword and the rifle”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7807430.stm
Nizar Rayyan was born over 40 years ago in a refugee camp in Gaza because his entire family had been expelled from the land they had for hundred of years by the Israelis. A land which despite international law he would never be allowed to return to.
Im not suprised he hated the bastard state of Israel.
Why do you think he hated secular Palestinians?
“Why do you think he hated secular Palestinians?”
No idea. Probably for what he saw as being sell outs to Israel
Since he’s dead we can hardly ask him. Perhaps we couldd ask his family.
Tim – whether they were hamas members or not, 400+ people died. Those Hamas people will no doubt be replaced by others.
Firstly, you expect me to believe who were Hamas and who were not based on what the Israeli govt says? Or what the UN says (given their limited access?). Funny, the pro-Israeli crew normally hate the UN and think its anti-Israeli to its core… except when it says what they like.
Secondly, you’ll note my point was about Abbas and when you choose to ignore him (prior to the invasion) and when you choose to hang on his every word (straight after).
Try being consistent please. It’s most embarassing
Allah u Akbar is just a prayer. There were a lot of different religious groups there and opinions, and you need to get over it because we all live in the same country.
I saw a poster saying “Only Sharing will Save the World” and if I had been in a grumpy or unhappy mood I might have thought it trite. I saw a bunch of young people with a banner that said “Labour Youth” and if I was in a grumpy or unhappy mood I might have felt annoyed that this political group was involved.
Were you in a grumpy or unhappy mood Sunny? It was such a lovely day.
I wish brown people were more politically mature, honestly.
from your reports here it sounds like they are
dave bones — on 4th January, 2009 at 2:52 am
“I wish brown people were more politically mature, honestly.”
from your reports here it sounds like they are
Sorry to pick on you but this is the funniest most patronising comment Ive read in ages. Well done brownie/Gunga Din!
bbm – I was actually in a good mood throughout the day. That bit was the only annoying bit. The girl kept shouting chants in my ear and eventually I had to tell her to stop shouting when we were downstairs waiting for the tube.
As for it being a prayer. I realise that… I know that it means. But prayers should be kept to the mosque, and not used as a political rallying cause, especially at a political event that you want to include everyone in.
The people who scream ‘allah hu akbar’ at these rallies are the rudeboys who walk around with scarves on their faces, and then go back to smoking weed (or planning on how to bring sharia to Britain), and basically think they’re a bit bad.
I know people like that… they’re the same when it comes to Hindus and Sikhs – people who actually know little about their religion but like to pretend a few political rallies and shouting will give them dawah.
dave – I’m still learning!
I went to the march yesterday – I came with my younger sisters after we created and painted our banner -minus religious references- and attended with a coach load of young and old, black, asian and white from Manchester. I felt that despite a march taking place in Manchester (which gathered 3,000 -5,000 people) it was important we came to London to march around Parliament.(Left Mcr at 7am) Over 10,000 attended.
The march had many non-Muslim voices and it seems that most people are outraged by UK govt’s dithering, Miliband’s ineffectiveness, and Brown’s outraegous SILENCE. Even the opportunist Tories and Lib Dems have disappeared off the news radar.
This silence of our elected leaders shows why demos and the like which attract a fair few people demonstrate that democracy and rallies have their place so that our people can challenge via the ballot box. If anything -I believe that the British Govt’s kowtowing to the Israeli propaganda can also serve to anger the Muslim populaton -which means more money for the “Preventing Violent Extremism” agenda??? Hilarious. Also, the £12.5mn promised on this can eclipse the £7mn ‘aid’ the Brit government is going to give to Gaza! What a joke
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/communities/preventingviolentextremism
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/fco-in-action/counter-terrorism/counter-terrorism/preventing-extremism/projecting-british-islam/
blah- what did I say wrong?
Sunny said he wished Brown people were more politically mature and I said his reports here seem to be about politically mature brown people
what the fuck is wrong with that?
Sunny,
If stories like this turn out to be true
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
You may find yourself in a position where solidarity with “the Palestinian people” is a little more complex than you think.
The stronger Hamas are, the poorer the chances of any meaningful settlement.
As most Arab countries, and Fatah recognise.
Both my partner and myself marched on Saturday and throughout the hours that we were there, we saw absolutely nothing of the Hamas flags that are written about in the Guardian report, let alone a sea of them. I find it quite bizarre that this reporter could of seen such a thing when no one else did. I consider that my view from standing on top of the middle fountain, although not the very best view of the protest at Trafalgar (I am sure the view from the stage was the best), certainly a very very good and broad one, and I didn’t manage to see any banners what so ever with any religious messages on. And anyway, if this was so, lets see the number of photos that there should be of this so called sea – with the number of photographers there, surely there should be loads!?!
All in all, it was a very peaceful and to the point protest. However, the numbers given by the police from their count at one o’clock are irrelevant to the overall number as I know that I was at the front end of the procession and we were still marching at one o’clock and were no where near Trafalgar square at that time. I also know that once my partner and I had finally reached Trafalgar, people from the end of the march were still arriving at the square for at least over 1 and a half hours after we’d arrived. I know this because I could see the people flowing in from where I stood.
I am not the protesting type and neither my partner or myself have ever taken or even considered taking part in one before. But this is an issue that has been so bitterly and heart-wrenchingly disgusting for so so long now and our faith in our Government, to do what is right and humane, has all but faded, that we just couldn’t sit back.
I saw so many people out there on Saturday that had come from all over the country, mothers and fathers with their little ones, young people, old people, really really old people, people that without the use of wheelchairs or other types of aid would be otherwise immobile. This crowd was not made up of those who have a natural and regular inclination to join protests. To me this has shown the level at which this issue has sunk to the hearts and sense of ethics of so many thousands of UK citizens. And these are just the people that were able and prepared to travel down to London and stand around for hours and hours in the utterly painful freezing cold – think about how many more ’sofa supporters’ there are out there!
I hope that our media wake up and start paying this cause the support that it deserves – this is not about the long drawn-out argument between the two sides, this is about reasonability, proportionality and Israel’s continued atrociously inhumane treatment of Palestinian civilians over the years.
The main chant that could be heard on the day was.. …FREE FREE PALESTINE!!
Victoria et al
‘Your’ Government can do absolutely nothing, short of sending the army in, and how popular do you think that would be, to force the Government of any other sovereign state to do anything.
‘Our’ Government, I assume you too are British, has, for the majority of my 63 years, had eyes bigger than its stomach, as far as it imagines what its foreign policy can achieve, and the only accomplishment of Governments of both colours in that time is to have run this country into the ground by either under or over taxing or spending.
Israeli fighting terrorism
What the pro-Palestinian media wont show you
http://muslimtv.magnify.net/video/ISRAEL-CARNAGE-CIVILIANS-CHILDR
Cheers tim
Meanwhile, sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had “executed” more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations.
Stop the massacre. It’s what the Nazis did.
O dear Sunny, back on the Israel massacred all civilians line. You really do oscillate don’t you? You’re out there with Galloway and the Islamists on that one.
Some interesting posts on this blog:
http://ingaza.wordpress.com/
sunny, it’s not fair to say that you wish brown people would be more politically mature. Such comments give cover to racists.
Don’t forget that campaigns against Obama were turned into religious claims by white americasn that he was the anti-christ. There are crazy people amongst every race.
I thought brown people were being politically mature by giving speeches from the platform at the rally, encouraging people to do more than just march, to lobby their MPs and the PM. Just because you are brown, Sunny, and some of the protestors were brown, doesn’t mean you can tar all brown people with the “politically immature” brush.
My report here:
http://rayyanmirza.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/gaza-demo-report-and-six-things-we-can-all-do-to-support-gaza/
Guys, of course I’m generalising. But I think the criticism stands, nevertheless.
Not really Sunny. Why describe the two girls as “hijabi girls” and then complain about Muslims expressing their religious identity (admittedly quite loudly) unless you have something against Muslims? And I’m sure that’s not the case. Have you ever been to a mosque? They are places of prayer, not loud shouting. Saturday was a demonstration; people shout loudly at these things. Granted, it might put some off, but I didn’t see the many white and non-Muslim people present desert the demonstration as a result.
It is mainly Muslims who are dying, and so you should expect Muslims to feel strongly about it. That’s not political immaturity. That’s just expression of religious solidarity. And before you say so, I’ve been on the climate march a couple of times and there were plenty of Muslims there. So it’s not the case (as is often implied) that Muslims are only politically active when it’s other Muslims who are dying.
Some people might think religion belongs in private, with no public expression of it whatsoever; I believe, however, I have a right to be loud and proud about my identity, religious, cultural, whatever. There are better ways of doing it that shouting takbeer, but I’d rather those “young bad boys” you deride would express themselves that way than with any real violence.
And when the riot police rushed us and many of the younger people were angry (we were all upset), it was Muslim men of all different ages asking people to remain calm.
Having said all that, the right to religious expression is predicated upon people not shoving their views down the throats of others: if that’s what you thought they were doing then I can see your point. Otherwise, where is the outrage at all the religious iconography present in the public sphere at Christmas time? Public displays of religious or cultural identity do not bother me.
“It reckons the Christian population of the occupied territories is under 3% of the total”
perhaps because the other 27% have left the occupied territories.?]
I went to the demo and saw no hamas flags…i did see a couple of HT flags, an anarchy flag and a kashmiri flag…I really do wish they hadn’t asked George Galloway to turn up..he’s a twat.
I found most of the speeches spot on…Interpal (the new terrorist org on the american terrorist list)were there as well…
I didn’t hear anyone chant for hamas…and i think the whole hamas line is deflecting from the ordinary men women and children that are being massacred…you can tell how much the israeli spokesppl have been coached…they’re like robots chanting the same shit…
If people want to express their religious views they should be allowed to – don’t be so intolerant. The march was excellent. The sppeches excelent. George Galloway spoke very well (as usual) and got a lot of cheers both when he started and finished.
A attended a demo last week and must admit, the religious spin we give them does probably isolate non muslim people at these demo’s. You see we don’t see it as a negative, but they don’t know what we are saying and what it means…
I could say the same about the fact that many of the Arab people on the march chanted some slogans in Arabic that I didn’t understand. But I won’t, because whilst I felt a bit odd I didn’t feel isolated – ultimately, it’s Arabs who are dying and if British Arabs want to express solidarity with their kin in Gaza in the language that comes most naturally to them, that is their choice. It can be confusing, but I don’t believe it undermines the diversity of these things, contrary to what Sunny and others say – there were plenty of non-religious, English chants going round, and all of the speeches were inclusive and in English.
Provocative behaviour particularly from young men (regardless of their ethnicity or religion) can be counter-productive, but there were plenty of young men who were trying to calm everyone down after the police had rushed us.
‘Muslims aren’t alone in this – go to any rally on Sikh human rights / 1984, and you get people shouting ‘Khalistan Zindabad‘ or ‘Raj Karega Khalsa’… which has no relevance to the fact that its a human rights issue not a religious issue. I wish brown people were more politically mature, honestly.’
Everyone likes to play the victim, and show off their tribal colours, eh?
And for the record, I’ve found out that’s it’s Capisce (for anyone who cares).
that it’s*
Damn dodgy comment-edit facility!
Heh I was going to correct him but couldn’t be bothered…
Have you ever been to a mosque? They are places of prayer, not loud shouting. Saturday was a demonstration; people shout loudly at these things. Granted, it might put some off, but I didn’t see the many white and non-Muslim people present desert the demonstration as a result.
Erm, that’s because they’re not there in the first place.
You went… did you not notice the overwhelmingly brown and old socialist content?
There are a lot of middle of the road people who feel for the palestinians and came to the anti-war march too. Where were they? Why were they not there?
You have to, at one point, accept that the people organising these things aren’t interested in building wider coalitions. For the Palestinians, I think that is a shameful let down. The cause has to be a human rights cause and not a religious cause.
And for the record, I’ve found out that’s it’s Capisce (for anyone who cares)
whoops! thanks amrit, will keep that in mind…
The rally I went to was equally peaceful. However, some kids decided to show up in the head scarves of the terrorists – completely covered up with only their eyes showing. Some elderly men made them take it off though.
Later on, I reckon the same teenage boys – started a chant saying “Kill the Jews” – that too died a miserable death.
In our rallies, there was fair amounts of non-palestinians, non-muslims there.
You went… did you not notice the overwhelmingly brown and old socialist content?
There are a lot of middle of the road people who feel for the palestinians and came to the anti-war march too. Where were they? Why were they not there?
I was there – there was a diverse range of people, and I do apologise if they don’t all fit into the equation anti-war movement = Muslimists + far leftists. You think there are even enough old socialists to pack out a demo of tens of thousands? Perhaps some people see only what they want to see – if you read the Guardian’s account, or perhaps HP, some clearly saw it as a Hamas/Hezbollah march.
I saw a lot of middle of the road people – are we getting into semantics here? – neither brown nor old socialist. Less so on the march towards the Embassy, but that was a different matter. As to the intentions of the organisers – I can’t read minds but I’m sure not all of them would intentionally want to keep the marches confined to a small demographic. Where is the logic in that? This might be the view of the SWP, but from the people I’ve met who work with the PSC, and a lot of people who’ve worked as aid workers in Palestine, most of whom are neither brown (your obsession with that word again!) nor Muslim nor socialist, it’s clear what they want is as wide a coalition as possible – and see it purely as a humanitarian cause. I don’t know if you listened to the speeches by Muslims (and socialists) at the rally, but it was clear almost all of them wanted people to take it further than just a demonstration – to build a much wider movement.
They might be going about it in the wrong way (e.g. allowing Muslimists to turn up and sing Muslim chants – shock horror, can’t have that) but then they could probably benefit from being given some advice as to how to build a wider coalition. I’m sure they’re all ears.
Perhaps it is also important to consider the fact that the media is doing a pretty bad job of conveying the human cost of the conflict – emphasising the fact that Israel is after Hamas at every turn, and then as mentioned earlier the Guardian reporting “a sea” of Hamas and Hezbullah flags. Might this have something to do with the fact that the elusive white non-socialist non-Muslims do not turn out in greater numbers?
You’re right, a lot of people are annoyed at the situation, but do not want to be straight-jacketed. Join the Facebook group, BRITS FOR PALESTINE: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56111149151
Sorry for the shameless promotion, Sunny.
“Might this have something to do with the fact that the elusive white non-socialist non-Muslims do not turn out in greater numbers?”
This topic seems to have been reduced to concentrating on identifying the type of demonstrator and not solutions – unless I’ve missed them. To get the govt to change its stance it needs to be a numbers game. The volume attending this demo may not have been enough for the powers to be to see a sizeable portion of the electorate attending.
Look at the Andrew Sachs matter where it took 30,000 (?) complaints to the BBC to get re-address. I remember the droves of ALL types of people who left flowers, cards for princess diana which allegedly forced blair to advise the royal family to change tactics.
Sadly, this situation does not resonate on a wide enough commonality to get the critical masses participating. What it actually needs is a Bob Geldof figure (not SWP, muslim orgn, activist, Galloway etc) to get the focus on the humanity angle and NOTHING ELSE.
Either that or Simon Cowell who knows how to get the paying masses voting … I think x factor this year got 10 million at one vote
Put a high profile celebrity in the picture & you bring the media along with you too …
Its not what activist’s usually do but it may achieve the outcome desired which is the important thing.
Perhaps activists need to adapt & see that the masses do not go out on cnd marches any more but prefer to stay cosy at home & press a voting button at a premium price.