Holocaust in Gaza


by Sid (Faisal)
27th December, 2008 at 12:45 pm    

Israelis don’t like to see the word “Holocaust” being used against them to describe their own actions against the Palestinians. But what has happened in Gaza today is nothing short of a brutal, disproportionate attack specifically executed to kill as many civilians as possible.

Israeli F-16 bombers have launched a series of air strikes against key targets in the Gaza Strip, killing and injuring scores of people.

Medical staff and Hamas officials said at least 140 people were killed when missiles hit security compounds and militant bases across Gaza.

The strikes, the most intense Israeli attacks on Gaza in recent times, come after the expiry of a truce with Hamas.

Israel said it was responding to continued rocket attacks from Gaza.

I expect the international community to remain silent and inert in response to this attack, once again. And once again, I expect to be told that there are worse attacks on civilians happening in the Congo or Zimbabwe. Perhaps there are but even if there were, how can that be used as pretext for this?

The Israel army released a statement saying “terrorist installations” were hit and that all Israeli pilots returned unharmed.

The operation against the Hamas is “only just beginning,” Avi Benayahu, an Israeli military spokesman said.

The air raids follow the decision by the Israeli security cabinet to increase reprisals for cross-border rocket attacks against Israel, and the breakdown of a six-month-old Israel-Hamas truce earlier this month.

The ceasefire expired on December 19, with Hamas arguing that Israel had violated the truce by preventing vital food and medical supplies into the Strip.


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  1. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:08 pm  

    “But what has happened in Gaza today is nothing short of a brutal, disproportionate attack specifically executed to kill as many civilians as possible.”

    Nonsense.

  2. Beavis — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:15 pm  

    None of the UK news sources mention ground attacks.

  3. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:15 pm  

    As to the IDF entering Jabaliya and targeting civilians, NO SUCH ACTION TOOK PLACE. Its PAllywood fabrication.

    In the light of what has happened, you might want to go easy on the racist and derogatory language aimed at Palestinians.

  4. Stan — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:19 pm  

    Until the Palestinian people understand the mindset of the Israeli people there will be no peace. Palestinians are always fighting the ‘last’ war. The one they lost … in the hopes of regaining ‘face’ or ‘lost honour’. Forget about it. It’s over. Mistakes were made. People died unnecessarily. For what gain? Arabs are seeking to revenge what cannot be revenged. The Israelis have moved on. Only the Palestinians are left in the wake. Wake up. Get with it. Make the deal that’s already been placed on the table! Accept that Israel exists and will continue to exist as a nation-state. If you ‘really’ want the Palestinian State to come into existence … drop your weapons and accept the olive branch. Sign on to a peace deal that’s all but signed off on … How many more wasted lives in Gaza will satisfy the Arab need for bloodlust? What don’t you guys get? Drop your weapons and get a State! It’s that easy …

  5. Boris — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:27 pm  

    Hamas fires about 250 crude rockets into Israel for past three days. Yesterday they hit their own people and destroyed two homes in Gaza.Two girls were killed and some children wounded. 40-years old palestinian was badly wounded and taken to hospital in Tel-Aviv. You called it Holocoust? Watch your language

  6. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:32 pm  

    You called it Holocoust? Watch your language

    I’ll be more than happy to use any word you suggest to define a state-sponsored military attack designed to kill as many civilians as possible.

  7. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:35 pm  

    It is clearly not designed to ‘kill as many civilians as possible’. You’re allowing your bias to override your judgement.

  8. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 1:39 pm  

    Nice peice of insinuation, my “bias”. And of course, you’re perfectly objective.

  9. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:03 pm  

    Nice try Gideon, but I didn’t facilitate or execute this air and ground attack on Gazan civilians. Nor am I here to as an apologist for them either.

    Never mind, you could win a prize for writing comment 12, probably the most overwrought and tasteless piece of whataboutery on this site since it began.

  10. Golam Murtaza — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:03 pm  

    Yes, Sid, stop facilitating the killing of Palestinians! It’s all your fault. Obviously.

  11. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:09 pm  

    Sid, who do you think should make the first move to peace, and what should that be?

  12. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:13 pm  

    Katy, I would have liked the ceasefire to have lasted longer than 6 months since Annapolis, last year. But do you think this attack by Israel is a “move to peace”?

  13. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:18 pm  

    Sid, were you aware that your ‘pretext for this’ link above, to an Al Jazeera article, does not refer to the current actions but is dated March 2nd, 2008?

  14. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:24 pm  

    Steve M, thanks for pointing out the link to the wrong story. I was referring to yesterday’s attack on Gaza rather and not the one in March 2008. Duly corrected.

  15. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 2:34 pm  

    No. I suppose if you’re in Israel, it feels like a step towards stopping the rockets, and if you’re on the receiving end of the rockets it feels less disproportionate than if you’re watching the news in the UK. But I also know that conditions in Gaza are awful and if you’re actually in Gaza then lobbing rockets in the general direction of Israel probably doesn’t seem as unreasonable as if you’re watching the news in the UK.

    It seems to me that:

    (a) both sides need to want everything to stop;
    (b) Hamas needs to stop the rockets;
    (c) Israel needs to lift the blockade, and
    (d) they both need to just do those things rather than insisting that the other side has to go first.

  16. dassvader — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:05 pm  

    Holocaust? So you’d rather misuse a word just to rile the Joos than aim for accuracy in reporting? No wonder the west pakistanis found it so easy to fuck you eastern banglas into the ground. Now that was a real genocide or two, wasn’t it? The rest of the umma didn’t give a fuck about it (then or now) either, right? It was the hindoos who saved your sorry asses! Stop the hysterical kneejerk mooslim reflex in defence of the pallies and get on with your sorry lives.

    This is another event like the Jenin “genocide”.
    Pity about palestinian civilians getting it in the neck but the Israelis have every right to hit back hard at Hamas. Even if the evil bastards are hiding behind their women and children as they are wont to.

  17. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:29 pm  

    “Steve M, thanks for pointing out the link to the wrong story. I was referring to yesterday’s attack on Gaza rather and not the one in March 2008. Duly corrected.”

    Thank you for correcting the link so quickly. Now, referring to the new Al Jazeera article that you link to, Do you think that the statements of the Hamas leaders quoted, such as:

    The Hamas-run interior ministry said all security compounds in the Strip had been destroyed.

    and:

    Mousa Abu Morzouz, the deputy leader of Hamas, told Al Jazeera: “Until now the aggression didn’t stop … they are targeting all the police headquarters and offices.”

    give credence to your view that:

    “Israelis don’t like to see the word “Holocaust” being used against them to describe their own actions against the Palestinians. But what has happened in Gaza today is nothing short of a brutal, disproportionate attack specifically executed to kill as many civilians as possible.”

    ?

  18. Sunny — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:31 pm  

    I think holocaust may have been a bit excessive a word, but Israel really isn’t winning much sympathy with this, is it?

    Until the Palestinian people understand the mindset of the Israeli people there will be no peace.

    And what about vice versa?

  19. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:38 pm  

    Steve M, I’m using word holocaust as a metaphor for the blockade and situation the Gazans are facing and not to diminish from the Shoah in any way or form. As the dassvader has rather colourfully pointed out above, being of Bangladeshi origin, I can appreciate well what it is like to be one generation away from being victims of a genocide

    But can you tell what measures the Israelis took to prevent civilians being killed in this attack?

  20. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:45 pm  

    Sunny,

    Not winning much sympathy eh? Well that makes a change.

    Yes of course you’re right. The Israelis must understand the Palestinian mindset too. However, understanding and acting are separate issues, particularly when dealing with the mindsets of that portion of Palestinians who are set absolutely on the destruction of the State of Israel. Similarly, Palestinians have every right to act against the portion of Israelis who have their mindsets of expanding Jewish settlements into areas where their only rights are biblical.

    I firmly believe that the best ways to deal with these issues is through discussion and negotiation. Israel can give up settlements – they’ve done it before. Boundaries can be agreed. However, while Hamas has believed in the efficacy of their military campaign, an eventual, powerful military strike by Israel was inevitable. To describe the attack as “specifically executed to kill as many civilians as possible” is far from the mark.

  21. Indrak — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:46 pm  

    Sid is doubtless capable of facing that his claim “kill as many civilians as possible” is over-extended: it cannot be true, since it does not conform to the mantra I have in my head from all the well-spoken IDF spokespeople with american/australian accents prefacing every account with “Israel regrets the loss of civilian …”

    -However, to a non-twat, subjecting one of the planet’s most densely-populated region, ie any part of it, to:

    “GAZA (Reuters) – Israeli warplanes and combat helicopters pounded the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip on Saturday, killing at least 155 people in the bloodiest day for Palestinians in more than 20 years.”;

    yes, munitions can be precision-guided these days, arising from R+D worth tens of billions at the core of capitalism [none of the minions involved is in any danger of being blamed let alone indicted fro their contribution], but it does require ‘intelligence’ as to whither to target… I used to wonder whence came this intelligence, until becoming familiar with the techniques used to buy and implicate assets.
    -Anyone sincere in this age of google, ie propably not the type of commenters above whom it suits to open with accusations of bias, would spend some moments looking into these techniques.

    Here’s something else to bear in mind:
    “…
    The WFP has had similar problems, sending only 35 trucks out of the 190 it had scheduled to cover Gazans’ needs until the start of February (six more were allowed in between 30 November and 6 December). Not only that: the WFP has to pay to store food that isn’t being sent to Gaza. This cost $215,000 in November alone. If the siege continues, the WFP will have to pay an extra $150,000 for storage in December, money that will be used not to support Palestinians but to benefit Israeli business.”
    ….
    “On 13 November production at Gaza’s only power station was suspended and the turbines shut down because it had run out of industrial diesel. This in turn caused the two turbine batteries to run down, and they failed to start up again when fuel was received some ten days later. About a hundred spare parts ordered for the turbines have been sitting in the port of Ashdod in Israel for the last eight months, waiting for the Israeli authorities to let them through customs. Now Israel has started to auction these parts because they have been in customs for more than 45 days. The proceeds are being held in Israeli accounts.”

    -both excerpts from Sara Roy in the LRB.

    And Mr Gideon etc, the IDF refused access fro any enquiry following Jenin – it’s not their sovereign land; have murdered not only Palestinians; has elements such as snipers who entertain themselves with maiming children such that they are not counted as deaths; can be said to have spawned Hezbollah no less than Iran, who forced it out of Lebanon the 1st time with its tail between its legs, and deployed cluster munitions in the final stages of the 2006 attempt, for future children to find..- the reckless and vain war which Blair saw little reason to curtail and put paid to its vaunted reputation.
    -that’s the blair that, when apprised by video I believe as preparation for his current job [no, not the directorshhip, nor the 12million from speaking], asked: “why didn’t I know any of this?”

  22. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:49 pm  

    “But can you tell what measures the Israelis took to prevent civilians being killed in this attack?”

    Sid, from the evidence we’ve seen and heard so far, it seems that Israel is attempting to target Hamas’ security and infrastructure. By and large such places are unlikely to be children’s playgrounds.

    Can you suggest any other measures that might be taken?

  23. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 3:58 pm  

    Can you suggest any other measures that might be taken?

    Steve M, I’m not a military tactician. But with 150+ dead, the large majority being civilans, it doesn’t look like the Israelis were any more concerned with protecting civilians than Hamas rocket launchers are.

  24. Fivish — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:00 pm  

    Israel has waited far too long to fight back against the monsters of gaza. Hamas sent 5,000 rockets into Israel, its only fair that Israel sends a similar amount back!
    Hamas has daily called for genocide of the Jews in Isarel (6,000,000) so for them to lose only 200 is hardly a hollocaust, not even a skirmish.
    But 200 deaths is not nearly enough to stop their Islamofascism which is sweeping the world.
    Pussyfooting around in Afghanistan and Iraq will not bring peace to the world. Iran and Saudi are the financiers of global islamic terrorism and must be destroyed!

  25. Steve M — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:01 pm  

    “Steve M, I’m not a military tactician. But with 150+ dead, the large majority being civilans, it doesn’t look like the Israelis were any more concerned with protecting civilians than Hamas rocket launchers”

    It’s impossible to know the truth of what is happening. However, Hamas police spokesman Ehad Ghussein has said that about 140 Hamas security forces were killed, so I don’t think the large majority are civilians.

  26. halima — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:13 pm  

    Sid

    Thanks for posting the link .

    The latest post on the BBC website ( it’s the top story today) – the situation is far more serious than I suspected.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm

  27. Sunny — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:14 pm  

    Steve M: I firmly believe that the best ways to deal with these issues is through discussion and negotiation. Israel can give up settlements – they’ve done it before. Boundaries can be agreed.

    As I do, and I know you’re no extremist on these issues. But, just one point, the boundaries are agreed aren’t they? we both know that….

    As for dassvader – don’t worry, he’s a known troll.

  28. Joe — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:30 pm  

    If any rocket will be dropped on my people,from any place in the world, respond will be stronger that israeli government did.

  29. Howard — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:36 pm  

    All reports indicate that 192 people in total were killed in Gaza and that 140 of these were Hamas security officers. How does this amount to deliberate targeting of civilians?

  30. Leon — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:40 pm  

    Sid, I’m not sure what your point is. You already advocate state sanctioned executions of anyone deemed a terrorist so why shouldn’t Israel kill who the hell the they like?

  31. louis a goretti — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:43 pm  

    this is pure sickness both are hard headed babies and no one wins in the end

  32. MaidMarian — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:45 pm  

    Bloody Hell Sid, are you trying to get those peace-loving, lovely people at honestreporting.com to flash the Bat Signal for their acolytes?

  33. comrade — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:54 pm  

    Damn Dude. What alternate reality do you live in? Where are the gas chambers? Where are the SS liquidation teams rounding up civilians.

    There are lots otherways of killing people, through dractonian measures, incuding the starving the 1.5 million residents of Gaza. Which has been Under siege since 2007 bring unmitigated misery,, poverty, death and disease to the entire Gazan population in an act of Nazi-style collective punishment for supporting Hamas.

    The firing of Qassam rockets by the Palestinian into Israel has only killed 12 civilians since 2001.

    This massacre will only strenthen the Palestinian resistant and produce more sucide bombers.

  34. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:57 pm  

    Wouldn’t it be a start if we could discuss this here, on this thread, without throwing the word “Holocaust” around and/or accusing each other of sanctioning arbitrary state execution?

    Sid, I don’t think the word “Holocaust” is helpful. Honestly. What slightly irks me about articles about I/P generally is that everyone’s very quick with the melodramatic imagery on either side (I’m talking to you as well, Gideon) but not so quick with the solutions. The situation in I/P is intolerable. I want to know what you and others think is the answer, and so far you’ve said “oh but is what Israel’s doing going to promote peace?” That’s pretty much the same whataboutery that we were discussing on the other thread :-) I think the answer is that it won’t – but I could just as easily say “do you think that it’s right to say there’s been a six month ceasefire when Hamas spent the whole of it lobbing rockets into Israel as if nothing had happened?”

    Can’t we get past all of that and work out what each side should do, now, to stop all of this?

  35. A. Samm — on 27th December, 2008 at 4:58 pm  

    F16 fighters which targeted civilians in Gaza now is Made in U.S.A. and presented to Israel as military Aid.
    Israel Without Military Aid from U.S.A. and Europe will not remain occupying others lands one minute.
    Israel Created by super powers (U.S.A., U.K., France, in the middle east to guard their interests in the middle east using the Jews as fuel for their intersts and once their interests come to an end they will leave Israel and its people to be violently smashed by its enemies without mercy cz. Israel did not treat others by mercy

  36. comrade — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:07 pm  

    All reports indicate that 192 people in total were killed in Gaza and that 140 of these were Hamas security officers. How does this amount to deliberate targeting of civilians?

    This guys were not part of the Hamas Millitary Wing, they were part of the police force that every elected state requires.

    Correct me if I am wrong, wasn’t Hamas set up by MOSSAD to devide the Palestinian Resistant

  37. comrade — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:13 pm  

    Can’t we get past all of that and work out what each side should do, now, to stop all of this?

    Answer….. end the occupation now!

  38. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:16 pm  

    And no doubt this will turn into the usual 150-comment troll cesspit as per every other I/P thread that’s been posted. Ta-ta.

  39. sonia — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:18 pm  

    good points from Katy in no. 40.

    its all terrible and the point is then what?

    using the terminology of the Holocaust does not seem to work (in as much the attempt seems to be to shame the Israelis/make them/supporters feel bad) : everyone is convinced of their side’s ‘right’ etc. and there is no point in comparing really. as Katy says, the situation is intolerable and both sides have engaged and continue to engage in violence. it won’t stop as long either side think their violence is justified and that’s the problem.

    i mean its a war that’s been going on for too bloody long

  40. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:21 pm  

    Sid – I am surprised at your unusually intemperate use of syntax.

    Everybody else – Most of you just don’t get it do you? As long as we have this outside side-taking and name-calling, the real protagonists are encouraged to continue punishing each other and and fail to sit down at the table and actually sort things out.

    May I recommend you all choose a football team to support and force the people on the ground to live, rather than die, with each other.

  41. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:23 pm  

    Munir – You disgust me

  42. Stan — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:24 pm  

    To: A.Samm

    Israel is real. It exists. The UN gave its blessing. The Arabs … not so much. But that was 60+ years ago. Muslims can not get over it. Why? Their caliphate dreams get in the way … They’re waiting for a “Saladin’ to bring back their former ‘glory’. Their dream job is to die … for the sake of Allah … in Palestine.

    As the song goes “you can’t expect mercy … on the battlefield”.

    Now … at the peace table … … …?

  43. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:25 pm  

    Katy, I understand your point. I regret using the word holocaust for this and yes it is unhelpful.

    My intemperence comes from knowing that airstrikes of any kind are used as a form of collective attack rather than one that is designed to seek out combatants. This air strikes looks like it was designed to kill as many *people* as possible.

    Leon, this was not the same as an unmanned drone attack on a single building which was the case with the killing of the terrorist Rashid Rauf in Pakistan. This looks like long range and wide area tacket.

    I think the answer is that it won’t – but I could just as easily say “do you think that it’s right to say there’s been a six month ceasefire when Hamas spent the whole of it lobbing rockets into Israel as if nothing had happened?”

    Yes but Katy, you could say that had there been no blockade they would not be firing rockets thus opening up yet another round of the tit-for-tat justifications that all discussions of I/P will end up at sooner or later.

    I agree with you that the solution for *must* be bilateral, and parallel. But the difficult part is how to find the fair referree who will oversee the implementation of a cessation of violence and long term peace.

  44. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:28 pm  

    And for those who think the term ‘Goyim’ is in some way pejorative it is Hebrew for ‘nations’. in other words, foreigners.

  45. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:28 pm  

    Sid, I think the only way to get past the tit-for-tatness is for both sides to swallow what’s happened and look forward. That’s what has to happen eventually, and I don’t know when they’ll be ready to do that.

  46. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:30 pm  

    We could take away each side’s weapons and give them beanbags and squeaky toys.

  47. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:30 pm  

    Nor I.

  48. Ala — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:32 pm  

    There seem to be a few new commenters here you don’t usually see, always on hand to defend Israel’s indefensible actions.

    Just like the offensive in March, this offensive is completely disproportionate and reckless in causing civilian casualties. At least this time Israel kindly let in some humanitarian aid for a few days to make up for causing a humanitarian disaster. http://uk.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKLL414968._CH_.2420

    You’d think Israel would learn how to avoid collateral damage having done so much of it in the past.

  49. MaidMarian — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:32 pm  

    Munir –

    Come on, how long did you think you could keep it doing before someone clocked you? You can tell me! Nice try at the wind-up. If you had done that at CiF the computers would have melted down after about five seconds.

    If you had not said that bit about Iran I might have taken you seriously.

    Nice try though!

  50. Boyo — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:34 pm  

    “But what has happened in Gaza today is nothing short of a brutal, disproportionate attack specifically executed to kill as many civilians as possible.”

    One example why blogging should not be confused with journalism. How do you know it was specifically aimed at civilians Sid?

    What I do know is –

    Hamas unilaterally ended the ceasefire.
    Has been launching rockets against Israel for some time.

    What I suspect is –

    Hamas sited its security in residential areas, so civilian casualties were inevitable.
    Like any totalitarian organisation, Hamas thrives on conflict.
    The Israelis are willing dupes, but then I suppose 2000 years of persecution (along with three attempts to “wipe them off the map” in the past 50 years) probably has something to do with it.

    For someone usually quite forensic, I wonder why you lost your cool over this?

  51. Stan — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:35 pm  

    To Munir,

    If killing was the issue … there would be a much higher death toll in Gaza today.

    The Israelis don’t need to kill more Gazans.

    The Gazans need to get their act together. Just like Robert Mugabe is holding Zimbavwe hostage … Hamas is holding Gaza hostage.

    Peace can be achieved tomorrow. All it takes is …

  52. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:37 pm  

    One example why blogging should not be confused with journalism. How do you know it was specifically aimed at civilians Sid?

    Well done, you’ve understood that blogging is not journalism, give yourself a hearty pat on the back. How do I know it was specifically aimed at civilians? Because I can’t find any evidence to suggest that it wasn’t.

  53. Stan — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:42 pm  

    I rest my case.

    There can and will never be peace with actors such as Munir and his ilk.

  54. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:43 pm  

    Oh dear.

  55. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:46 pm  

    Er, moderators? How much longer do I get to read about ziopigs and nazis? And how Jews are animals who only value Jewish life? And how Iran should kill 196 Jewish citizens? I’m all for people being able to say what they like about Israel regardless of whether I agree with them or not but when you start advocating the murder of non-Israeli Jews for actions which have nothing to do with them and in which they have no say, it seems to me that a line’s been crossed.

  56. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:47 pm  

    well, I guess it is interesting, for purely anthropological reasons, to consider other people’s prejudices. But Munir’s has gone back to the toilet they came from.

  57. MaidMarian — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:48 pm  

    Katy Newton (et al) – Munir’s comments are a pretty transparent wind-up.

    Just ignore them, delete them and don’t draw attention to them.

  58. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:49 pm  

    Cheers. I could never decide whether to leave that sort of stuff up, but in the end I think it distracts everyone from the main issue and it might put off other people from joining in.

  59. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 5:54 pm  

    How do I know it was specifically aimed at civilians? Because I can’t find any evidence to suggest that it wasn’t.

    Come on Sid, what evidence do you expect to find, a hand written note on the end of a missile that says ‘specifically not aimed at civilians’?

  60. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:15 pm  

    Not Munir at all, I’m sure.

  61. appalled — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:17 pm  

    Number of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets since the end of the truce and until the Israeli strike: zero. Number of Palestinians killed by Israeli strike: 200 and counting. A proportionate response? Only to those who are deluded, racist or brainwashed.

  62. Sunny — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:18 pm  

    I’ve deleted all of Munir’s comments anyway.

  63. Derek Wall — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:20 pm  

    Emergency Protests

    Sunday 28 December 2.00 pm – 4.00 pm and Monday 29 December 4.00pm – 6.00pm

    Both protests opposite Israeli Embassy – Kensington High Street

    Nearest tube: High Street Kensington

    Protests organised by PSC, Palestine Return Centre (PRC), Palestinian Forum of Britain (PFB), British Muslim Initiative (BMI), Stop the War, Friends of al Aqsa, Muslim Association of Britain (MAB), Respect, Islamic Human Rights Commission.

    Monitor news channels and call BBC and ITV every day to ask for accurate figures of numbers killed and injured. We will not accept Israeli spokespersons – we want Palestinian commentators.

  64. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:20 pm  

    I don’t delete, I put them on the moderation pile, which I then go back to to ping their IP addresses and report them to the ISPs. They are then put on an offenders list and after a while their credit ratings get nulled.

  65. MaidMarian — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:28 pm  

    Derek Wall (69) – ‘Protests organised by PSC, Palestine Return Centre (PRC), Palestinian Forum of Britain (PFB), British Muslim Initiative (BMI), Stop the War, Friends of al Aqsa, Muslim Association of Britain (MAB), Respect, Islamic Human Rights Commission.’

    Perhaps best not to push your luck?

  66. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:34 pm  

    We will not accept Israeli spokespersons – we want Palestinian commentators.

    Of course you do!

  67. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:36 pm  

    Freedom of speech eh Sid?

    of course but no freedom of racist trollery here.

  68. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:43 pm  

    Does anybody here actually believe that if Hamas had the military capability that Israel has that they wouldn’t be using it daily.

  69. Boyo — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:43 pm  

    Yesterday alone over 60 missiles hit Israel. There were no Israeli casualties, but Hamas did manage to kill two of their own – children – and injure a man who had to be transferred to Israel for medical treatment.

    Hamas themselves have admitted that “at least” 100 of the deaths are Hamas – as is clear from the non-sanitized European coverage – and which I presume is proof enough for Mr Wall.

    Of the missiles that did reach Israel, a number fell short of inhabited property, including a day care centre.

    Given that the Hamas were both aware and signed up to the action of their leadership, which had ignored the calls from other Arab states to halt their provocation (including Egypt, which has placed the blame squarely on Hamas) I find the sense of outrage somewhat disproportionate.

    Why not demonstrate elsewhere Mr Wall? Outside the Zimbabwe embassy perhaps, or Iranian? Russian maybe? Rwandan? Nope – it’d better be the Jews. At least everyone will be familiar with the address.

  70. Leon — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:47 pm  

    Leon, this was not the same as an unmanned drone attack on a single building which was the case with the killing of the terrorist Rashid Rauf in Pakistan. This looks like long range and wide area tacket.

    You advocate a power killing people they deem terrorists, Israel from I can tell is doing the same just with less precision. By your own logic you should have no problem with this. You said it yourself, ‘the only good terrorist is a dead one’, Israel says Hamas are terrorists, and kills them, you both should be very happy.

    So what if some ‘innocent’ civilians get slaughtered in the process, you’ve got to break some eggs to make an omelette right?

  71. Leon — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:51 pm  

    Does anybody here actually believe that if Hamas had the military capability that Israel has that they wouldn’t be using it daily.

    Nope. It’s just history, one group kills another, the oppressed group get some power and make sure they don’t get oppressed by killing others, the newly oppressed work towards getting power so they can kill and maim to preserve their own ‘security’. On it goes…

  72. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:54 pm  

    So what if some ‘innocent’ civilians get slaughtered in the process, you’ve got to break some eggs to make an omelette right?

    i prefer my omelette without civilian eggs, thanks.

  73. chairwoman — on 27th December, 2008 at 6:57 pm  

    Leon – Indeed

  74. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:03 pm  

    Man, I hate that omelette analogy. As an experienced cook, I can say with certainty that you really do need to break eggs to make an omelette. But people are not eggs and a war is not a delicious omelette. So as an analogy it breaks down fairly quickly.

  75. Beavis — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:08 pm  

    So Sid if Israel had launched 200 unguided missiles over 2 days, that would have been a proportionate response?

    Hamas itself is saying that all the attacks have been on Hamas compounds, that seems to me that the Israelis are (For a change) trying to minimise civillian casualties.

  76. Beavis — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:14 pm  

    Thats called “Luck” and its not with the Palestinian people at the moment.

  77. Standard and Poor — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:18 pm  

    I’m fucking sick of you lot on here, just bickering like a bunch of bloody schoolboys!! Does NOTHING matter to you? Innocent people, including kids, dying by the hundred. You are disgusting. I would like to slaughter pointless people like YOU.

  78. Boyo — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:27 pm  

    “Innocent people, including kids, dying by the hundred. You are disgusting. I would like to slaughter pointless people like YOU.”

    An inadvertent illustration of how accidents can happen.

  79. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:28 pm  

    There sure are a lot of people who want to slaughter other people for peace on this thread.

  80. Boyo — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:34 pm  

    “they murdered 200 people”

    Many of those were Hamas soldiers, volunteers presumably.

    Hamas had unilaterally ended the ceasefire and attacked Israel, an act of war. Soldiers die in war – it is not murder, although one could suggest that by their provocation – knowing full well how Israel would respond – Hamas were responsible for provoking an inevitable act of violence and therefore a form of murder.

  81. Sid — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:41 pm  

    I think we have clearly arrived at the point of tit-for-tat justifications where all dicussions on I/P will inevitably end.

    This thread has only served to show what many of us already know; that I/P is in a depressingly insoluble and intractable state of affairs.

  82. Boyo — on 27th December, 2008 at 7:45 pm  

    Ironic really to find myself a seeming apologist for Israel when I agree they often over-react. As a visitor (and sometime volunteer) to an NGO working in the West Bank to assist Palestinians, I’m also well aware of the inequalities and injustice, in particular continued settlement-building.

    However, I try to see both sides of the coin – how the Jews have learned some very hard lessons from history; how the Arab nations (and now wider Islamic “Ummah” and associated opportunists/ anti-semites) use the Palestinians as a pawn; how we should try not to measure injustice only by news coverage – it will take the Israelis and awful long time to equal Britain and America’s 100,000 killed, the same number equalled, incidentally, by the Iranian and Syrian murder of dissidents, all dwarfed by Mugabe, etc, etc.

    Facts (and thinking) should underpin comment. Even on blogs.

  83. fug — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:00 pm  

    hundreds killed today by trespassers and all their supporters can do is quibble over words which cause them mental scarring.

    sometimes i think Israel Inc. and the worm tongued that promote it want to extinguish the whole world in their selfish dog in the manger rage.

  84. Katy Newton — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:07 pm  

    Yeah, fug, you’re right, that’s all I’ve done. All I did was quibble over being called a nazi, a ziopig and an animal. It’s not like Sid and I were the only people who tried to have a discussion about what the solution is or anything. No no, your contribution is SO much more constructive. All hail the keyboard warrior!

  85. Chaya — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:12 pm  

    Amazing. For the past seven years rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israeli towns and we have – for the most part – done very little. And then we left Gaza three years ago and the rocket attacks increased. When we open the crossings for aid to go in, the terrorists bomb the crossings! We warned them not to continue with this. And they did. What Israel is attacking is infrastructure and ‘military’ structures. You do not know what is really going on.

  86. Chaya — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:15 pm  

    Keep up the good work, Boyo!

  87. chris — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:25 pm  

    Yeah, Chaya, you ‘left’ Gaza. You don’t impose a near-total blockade on the region and you don’t control entry to and exit from the place.

    This use of the term ‘military structures’ is the worst kind of doublethink. Many innocent civilians have died and your only response is to spout the same old tired justifications.

    Israel shouldn’t have to live with daily rocket attacks, even if they are crude and ineffective, but Gazans shouldn’t have to live in an open air prison and be subjected to attacks that, in some way, large or small, are motivated by political manouvreing.

  88. Standard and Poor — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:38 pm  

    Thank you rykart.  Now I am going to delete this site from my favourites – no, favorites.

  89. fug — on 27th December, 2008 at 8:53 pm  

    oh the palestinians are *lucky* that brother israel is so merciful, restrained, moral and helpful.

    thats worse than an ht argument.

  90. Cabalamat — on 27th December, 2008 at 9:13 pm  

    Let’s not mince words. Israel is a terrorist state.

    The Israeli government is a terrorist organisation, and should be treated as such within the meaning of British anti terrorist legislation. Any company that trades in Israel is funding terrorism, and should be treated as such. The UK and the EU should immediate imposte a trade embargo on Israel.

    Not going to happen of course, due to the people in charge of Britain and Europe being utterly clueless.

  91. comrade — on 27th December, 2008 at 10:09 pm  

    WATCH PRESS TV NEWS ON SKY 515 INTERVIEW WITH JEFF HELPER RE-ENFORCES THE ABOVE ARTICLE

  92. Ravi Naik — on 27th December, 2008 at 10:25 pm  

    But what has happened in Gaza today is nothing short of a brutal, disproportionate attack specifically executed to kill as many civilians as possible.

    It is objectively a brutal disproportionate attack, but to claim it is designed to kill as many civilians as possible or to call it a “holocaust” is really pushing it. Israel has enough arsenal to wipe out a significant portion of the Palestinian population if it decided to go genocidal.

    In any case, Israel’s actions today are disgraceful.

  93. platinum786 — on 27th December, 2008 at 11:09 pm  

    All were missing is gas chambers, not that Israel has held back from using Chemical weapons in the past.

    http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/kosher_weapons.shtml

    Unfortunately the Palestinians have little choices. Either they continue as they are and be slaughtered, or they surrender to Israel, give up their homes to the jewish state imposed on them by the guilty white man who managed to get rid of his own jew infestation, or fight to the end.

    Nobody is about to stop Israel, nor help the Palestinians. Those who want to, aren’t capable of, those who are capable of it, are not willing to.

  94. Steve M — on 28th December, 2008 at 12:10 am  

    imposed on them by the guilty white man who managed to get rid of his own jew infestation

    No, we’re still here infesting the UK and (I’m told) the USA.

  95. Katy Newton — on 28th December, 2008 at 12:23 am  

    Some of us are infesting this very page. Imagine that.

  96. Paul Moloney — on 28th December, 2008 at 12:48 am  

    “The compulsory membership in the IDF for all men and women of fighting age essentially means that the entire state is composed of past, present and future war criminals, excepting a tiny handful of IDF refusniks.”

    It’s good to know the mindset of people like you who consider killing Israeli babies to be justified because they are future war criminals (an opinion backed up scripturally by Ken’s friend Sheik Al Qaradawi, no less).

    P.

    P.

  97. Sunny — on 28th December, 2008 at 1:47 am  

    lol at this thread…

  98. Leon — on 28th December, 2008 at 1:50 am  

    Don’t know about anyone else but I like a bit of Jew infestion, lifts the soul it does…

    Jesus…what a fucking thread.

  99. Stan — on 28th December, 2008 at 3:29 am  

    Should the Israelis turn their other cheek? That is, show restraint and more restraint until … what? One Israeli or a bunch of Israelis get killed? Then, somehow the world will give them a pass to attack Gaza? Come on. We’re not playing in a sandbox. This is the real world. Power is important. Talk of restraint … proportional … these are silly.

    The Israelis used 60 bombs and killed over 200 people, human beings, in Gaza. The Gazans used 80 rockets last week on one day and scored no deaths. So … why bother to use rockets? Answer is …

    Gaza is not blockaded. Israel has a border with Gaza and so does Egypt. Ask Egypt to open the border and let the Gazans move around. Why only ask Israel? Israel doesn’t want the Gazans to move into Israel. OK but Egypt?

    Why … ask yourselves does this dirty war continue to be page one reading? Over 1 Million were killed in the Congo in the last few years without anyone even knowing! Why not march to get rid of Robert Mugabe, the butcher of Zimbavwe? Or Sri Lanka’s government which has bombed and killed and starved the Tamil Tigers and the Tamil people in the last months? Where’s the outrage there?

    No … Muslims are incensed in the UK and around the world because … in their mind … they should be giving not taking the abuse. The shoes on the other foot and they don’t like it. Their bible/Koran tells them they should be No. 1 and alas it doesn’t seem that way.

    I want a peaceful solution. It’s already been agreed to but Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran et al cannot accept a Jewish State in the neighbourhood. It’s an affront to their religion. Dhimmni once dhimmni for all time. Until there’s a shift in thinking … there will be a lot more dead on both sides of this war, sadly.

  100. Kulvinder — on 28th December, 2008 at 3:39 am  

    …imposed on them by the guilty white man who managed to get rid of his own jew infestation

    I’m sure the palestinians appreciate ‘friends’ like you in the west.

  101. Sunny — on 28th December, 2008 at 4:04 am  

    I can’t even be arsed to delete some of these racist fuckwits anymore.

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