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    PP meetup this Saturday


    by Sunny on 16th December, 2008 at 7:22 pm    

    We’re having a little meetup for PP writers and readers this Saturday afternoon in central London. If anyone is interested in coming, please get in touch. Though, as before, we may not give out the details to people we don’t really know.



      |     |   Add to del.icio.us   |   Share on Facebook   |   Filed in: Blog




    179 Comments below   |  

    1. Ashik — on 16th December, 2008 at 7:42 pm  

      I’ll definately try and make it. Especially if my good friend Sid makes an appearance. :)

    2. Sid — on 16th December, 2008 at 7:56 pm  

      Do your Jamaati loyalties allow you to come and socialise in a pub? If so, come along.

    3. S Johal — on 16th December, 2008 at 9:17 pm  

      I love to come, but I live in Birmingham, if any of you guys, decide to visit us villages folks you will be most wellcome, we meet every Friday, you can contect me on 0785******9. I visit my inlaws in Hunslow, every so often.

    4. Rumbold — on 16th December, 2008 at 9:33 pm  

      Ah Hounslow- ‘Rome rebuilt on the banks of the river Crane’. Where any dream can come true, as long as it involves fried chicken and unlocking your mobile phone.

    5. Zak — on 16th December, 2008 at 9:35 pm  

      the North -South divide is opening up again :p

    6. Gege — on 16th December, 2008 at 10:29 pm  

      what time is the meeting?

    7. Amrit — on 16th December, 2008 at 10:35 pm  

      Rumbold, don’t be hatin’ yo. :-P

      I will be making a probably-miniskirted appearance (plus ça change).

    8. BenSix — on 16th December, 2008 at 11:31 pm  

      A’ cannae, but have fun, one and all.

      Ben

    9. Vikrant — on 17th December, 2008 at 12:28 am  

      ok i’m gonna be flying back to dear old London town this thursday may drop by if i’m not too jet lagged!

    10. Trofim — on 17th December, 2008 at 8:44 am  

      I’ve always wanted to see some of these people in the flesh. Could the next do be in Tenbury Wells? It would be handier for me, and, after all, it is the mistletoe capital of Britain.

    11. Sofia — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:16 am  

      wish I could come since i’ve missed the last couple….boohoo

    12. bananabrain — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:43 am  

      could the next one be on a weeknight, so i might possibly make it? i can’t do this sort of thing on a saturday for religious reasons.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    13. Katy Newton — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:52 am  

      Also can’t come, as have a prior commitment. Boooooo.

    14. halima — on 17th December, 2008 at 10:19 am  

      And - me , hope to join the next one, enjoy. No fighting!

    15. Leon — on 17th December, 2008 at 10:27 am  

      could the next one be on a weeknight, so i might possibly make it?

      Ah yeah we had this conversation a little while ago…weeknights are generally quite difficult due to work stuff. Does Sunday (afternoonish) work for you?

    16. bananabrain — on 17th December, 2008 at 12:10 pm  

      sunday afternoonish would work for me as long as i can either bring a kid or two or get an exeat from mrs bananabrain, so yes!

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    17. douglas clark — on 17th December, 2008 at 12:34 pm  

      Won’t be able to make it, unfortunately.

    18. Leon — on 17th December, 2008 at 1:20 pm  

      sunday afternoonish would work for me as long as i can either bring a kid or two or get an exeat from mrs bananabrain, so yes!

      Heh PP meets can be made family friendly quite easily I suspect, besides it’d be good for Sunny in preparation for his impending Fatherhood. :D

    19. Golam Murtaza — on 17th December, 2008 at 1:45 pm  

      I prefer to imagine what you all look like (as I do with radio presenters). It’s much more fun!

    20. Nesrine — on 17th December, 2008 at 2:15 pm  

      Lol@Leon again.

      If there are kids we might have to have a swear box to curb my profanity.

    21. Leon — on 17th December, 2008 at 3:34 pm  

      Lol@Leon again.

      ;)

    22. sonia — on 17th December, 2008 at 4:25 pm  

      will be good fun.. looking forward to it. nesrine are you able to make it? &vikrant you’d better try and make it if only for a coffee to wake you up! ..seeing as you’re in the right continent and all..

    23. Nesrine — on 17th December, 2008 at 6:16 pm  

      Yep, should be, is it where it always is?

    24. Muhamad — on 17th December, 2008 at 6:53 pm  

      Well, all the best.

      This sort of thing makes me wish that I still lived in London and not 100s of miles away in the country.

    25. Don — on 17th December, 2008 at 7:07 pm  

      …it’d be good for Sunny in preparation for his impending Fatherhood

      I must have missed that memo. Sunny has an impending sprog? Many congrats.

    26. sonia — on 17th December, 2008 at 8:20 pm  

      nesrine - great..! heh i think its somewhere else this time..top secret - heh- no doubt Sunny will reveal all at the last moment.

      impending fatherhood? should we start congratulating sunny or is that some private joke leon :-)

    27. Jai — on 17th December, 2008 at 8:48 pm  

      Bloody hell Sunny, did one of your soldiers manage to sneak out of the bunker and plant a flag on someone’s hill despite orders to stay behind enemy lines ?

      Should the PP crew have a whip-round for baby booties ? I think we deserve to be told.

      This is the biggest scandal in the history of the world since Strictly Come Dancing was scheduled to clash with The X Factor, thereby presenting us with the horrible dilemma of whether we should ogle lovely ladies suggestively shimmying around to Latin beats in skimpy dresses they’re almost wearing or whether we should ogle the lovely Cheryl Cole instead.

      Especially as we all know that Cheryl actually deserves to be married to a devastatingly handsome and charming man and I think that man is me.

    28. Rumbold — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:05 pm  

      What about baby names?

      Barack Hundal?

    29. Leon — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:16 pm  

      Or Hilary Hundal if it’s a girl?

    30. Sunny — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:16 pm  

      I must have missed that memo. Sunny has an impending sprog? Many congrats.

      Its a long bloody rumour that Leon has been spreading on facebook and now on to PP! I’m not even near marriage let alone near fatherhood (not that they are both necessary, but anyway…)!!!

    31. BenSix — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:23 pm  

      And Sarah if it’s a girl…

      Update: Curse you, Leon.

    32. Leon — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:27 pm  

      MWA HAW HAW! :D

      Seriously, it only took hold because Sunny’s reaction to the suggestion was so amusing initially! :)

    33. sonia — on 17th December, 2008 at 9:29 pm  

      ah…ah well Sunny…sighs of relief (on your behalf of course) impending fatherhood sounds a bit scary..

    34. douglas clark — on 17th December, 2008 at 11:09 pm  

      Leon@32

      Shame on you!

      What now for the possibilities of Leon and Sonia as first names!

      OK, but Rumbold Hundal is never going to work!

    35. douglas clark — on 17th December, 2008 at 11:27 pm  

      Hmm…

      I’ve always wanted a character for that science fiction short story I never wrote. It would start:

      “Rumbold Hundal bestrode the Earth, his goodness oozing from every pore… When the forces of the Dale attacked….”

      Writing shite sci-fi is yet another unmastered art… Good sci-fi would be in a Galaxy, far far away…Or not.

    36. Muhamad — on 17th December, 2008 at 11:41 pm  

      Hussein Hundal?

    37. Sunny — on 17th December, 2008 at 11:47 pm  

      Obviously, my kid would be named Sunny Jundal Jr… because my own name is so damn good. LOL

    38. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:01 am  

      Oh, for fucks sake, Mu - brain dead - hamad @ post 36 is a complete utter tosser.

      Fuck off Muhamad.

    39. Leon — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:06 am  

      What now for the possibilities of Leon and Sonia as first names!

      No way man, Leon is reserved for my first born son!

      “Rumbold Hundal bestrode the Earth, his goodness oozing from every pore… When the forces of the Dale attacked….”

      Haha! I like it!! :D

    40. persephone — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:06 am  

      Snowy Hundal
      Windy Hundal

    41. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:22 am  

      Leon,

      No way man, Leon is reserved for my first born son!

      And what about your second born son?

      Had I known either of you existed back in those days, I might, just might, have named them Sunny and Leon. Just ’cause you are both so fucking good.

      Sunny Clark sounds like a lawyer.

      Leon Clark sounds like a literary critic.

      Douglas Hundal sounds like a nuclear physicist gone wrong, and,

      Sunny Clark sounds like she’d show her legs the telly.

    42. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 7:29 am  

      Funny Bundle.

    43. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 7:30 am  

      Honey Blunder.

    44. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 7:34 am  

      I can’t wait to meet all of you! To see the face behind the screen! To feel the fingers behind the comments! To put a real name to the handles! SCREECH!

    45. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 9:12 am  

      Sunny Italiana plays for Juventus. Probably world player of the year.

      Desi Hundal plays for Middlesborough. probably not world player of the year, but loved by the fans.

    46. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 9:23 am  

      Of course Rumbold Clark plays in Partick Thistle’s reserves and is not about to break into the first team!

      The ‘Don Leon’ is obviously the manager of Chelsea. After several dodgy seasons with Napoli.

      This is silly.

      :-)

    47. Sofia — on 18th December, 2008 at 9:52 am  

      Forget baby booties..any hundal baby will need to have a copy of magna carta and a draft of a British constitution…

    48. Leon — on 18th December, 2008 at 10:37 am  

      There’s a draft of the British constitution?

      And what about your second born son?

      Hmmmm Leon the 3rd? :D

    49. Sofia — on 18th December, 2008 at 10:45 am  

      no …but I reckon we should all chip in and write one….

    50. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 11:14 am  

      Leon,

      That was bloody funny!

      ;-)

      douglas clark the fourth. See ma big brothers…

    51. Sofia — on 18th December, 2008 at 11:30 am  

      erm…is this gender selection bias?

    52. sonia — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:01 pm  

      33 - not that i want to scare any ‘impending’fathers out there!

      there really should be a ‘pickled family’ bit somewhere where the PP sprogs photos could go up. perhaps then we would look more ‘human’ than just a bunch of robots to Ashik, who when we says ‘we are not typical’ = well i guess you never really know do you - we could all be Aunties in disguise!! :-)

      Desi - I’d love to meet you in the flesh..are you hopping over or what? :-)

      p.s. Katy - we’ve never managed to meet! Another time hopefully. Do you guys think London bloggers should have more meet-ups that are less ’specific’ blog oriented if you see what i mean? Or just casting the net a bit wider. Just a random set of events to which any blogger/network of bloggers who want to make the link ‘offline’ ha ha could come to. Or not as the case may be. i think it would be interesting. I mean i know there are so many bloggers in london (so at least some one would turn up!) Perhaps this could be what we do next year. Blogging networks..in cafes and pubs, arguing away, or maybe not arguing as much, but getting to know each other and what makes us all tick.

      i bet Ashik will turn out to be a lovely bloke in real life.

      (sorry ashik, i don’t mean to be so facetious all the time, perhaps you will think i’m more compassionate if you met me in RL. then again you might think i’m a strident harpy still. ah well”!)

    53. sonia — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:05 pm  

      45. douglas - amusing that. sunny italiana and desi hundal.

      41- douglas you are funny, you’re on a roll there.

      where’s kismet hardy?

    54. sonia — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:11 pm  

      “Forget baby booties..any hundal baby will need to have a copy of magna carta and a draft of a British constitution…”

      heh heh. Sunny’s draft of what the British constitution

    55. Jai — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:15 pm  

      I might, just might, have named them Sunny and Leon.

      “Sunny Leone” is the name of a well-known American porn star of Indian Punjabi extraction.

      Ahem.

    56. Rumbold — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:33 pm  

      Heh Douglas and Leon.

      Jai, you know too much.

      Stick with the classics: Dimple Hundal, Twinkle Hundal, Pinky Hundal and Babli (pronounced ‘bubbly’) Hundal.

    57. Amrit — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:33 pm  

      This thread is legendary! I want to frame it and put it on my wall :-D

      Now now, people, we all know that Sunny should name a male sprog Anthony or Boris (hahaha) and a female sprog Margaret or Ariane. :-D

      LMAO @ Rumbold.

    58. justforfun — on 18th December, 2008 at 12:44 pm  

      Damn - the one time I’m near London and i’ll be landing in that Paradise - Abu Dhabi. Whats the airport like? I have to spend a long time in transfer.

      I like Dimple. I suggested it for my daughter once.

      or

      Anna
      - rupee - anna - get it.

      justforfun

    59. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 1:35 pm  

      Jai,

      “Sunny Leone” is the name of a well-known American porn star of Indian Punjabi extraction.

      Ahem.

      Really? Well, who’d have thought it.

      What a chat up line for when your sixteen or so:

      “I’m named after a famous porn star.”

      Oh well, maybe not.

    60. douglas clark — on 18th December, 2008 at 1:40 pm  

      Dimple justforfun is a cracking name.

    61. sonia — on 18th December, 2008 at 1:56 pm  

      jff - abu dhabi airport - :-(
      especially if you’re comparing it to Dubai

      still better than the airport in Amman i’d say..where there are not enough seats!

      sofia yes - there definitely seems to be a gender bias in choosing names..heh the Junior one makes me laugh though. So cheesy. why not call one’s kid ‘Mini-me’ and be done with ;-)

    62. bananabrain — on 18th December, 2008 at 4:36 pm  

      i tend to refer to mine a mini-banana 1.0 and 2.0 respectively. they tend to refer to me as “NO! I WANT THUNDERBIRDS!” and “aaaAAAAaaaa” respectively. mind you mini-banana 2.0 refers to everything as “aaaAAAAaaaa”.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    63. Jai — on 18th December, 2008 at 4:43 pm  

      Sunny Leone is a woman, by the way. Just in case there was any confusion. It’s not like I know the names of any of the blokes in that business.

      Jai, you know too much.

      Good point, Rumbold. I should probably stop talking now…..

      Stick with the classics: Dimple Hundal, Twinkle Hundal, Pinky Hundal and Babli (pronounced ‘bubbly’) Hundal.

      Yeah but then the kid would get mixed up with all the other Dimples, Twinkles etc Mr Hundal is related to. And then you’d have situations like the following:

      “What’s her name ?”
      “Dimple”.
      “So what’s everyone going to call me ?”
      “You will be known as Dimple too.”
      “Er, as in Dimple and the number 2, or ‘too’ as in ‘also’” ?
      “YOU WILL ALL BE KNOWN AS DIMPLE !!!”

      And so on and so forth.

    64. Leon — on 18th December, 2008 at 5:02 pm  

      Good point, Rumbold. I should probably stop talking now…..

      Indeed….you’ll be talking about Priya Rai next.. :P

    65. Amrit — on 18th December, 2008 at 5:34 pm  

      LOL @ bananabrain.

      Tut tut, the menz are taking over this thread… but I don’t know any male Indian porn stars to invoke… In fact, the thought makes me shudder.

      When are we hearing about where the meet-up is, timings, etc.?

    66. Rumbold — on 18th December, 2008 at 7:57 pm  

      Leon:

      Who?

      Heh Jai. Still not sure why Dimple is so popular.

    67. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:05 pm  

      “Still not sure why Dimple is so popular.”

      Well then, Tinkle Hundal it is.

    68. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:07 pm  

      Sonia:

      “Desi - I’d love to meet you in the flesh..are you hopping over or what?”

      No, am not rowing across the pond. I wish. That way I could get away from all the inane conversations about marriage that I have been forced to suffer through.

    69. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:08 pm  

      Sikandar ibn Hundal.

      Osama Hundal.

    70. halima — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:18 pm  

      “That way I could get away from all the inane conversations about marriage that I have been forced to suffer through.”

      Damn it, can’t you make yourself ugly and all - and the proposals will dry up? Sorry to hear.

    71. Amrit — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:27 pm  

      Desi - I so feel your pain. When did you start getting an earful about marriage? You must’ve been hearing it for some years, of that much I am sure. I salute you - I don’t know how I am going to go another 6-7 years without my mother driving me insane. I don’t even know how I’m going to make it through next year! :(

      I salute you in coping thus far!

    72. halima — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:35 pm  

      Amrit , Desi

      Would love to say more on this topic - how to cope, but have overwhelming urge to sleep ( Amrit, I still have to comment on your great blog post).

      Just to say - one strategy is to migrate as far away as possible, away , away ….

    73. Amrit — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:38 pm  

      Halima -

      Yup, that’s one that I’m going for.

      I may have to learn to live with cockroaches or something, just as long as I can GET OUT.

      If you need to sleep, please do. :D

    74. Rumbold — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:40 pm  

      Amrit:

      I shall join you in saluting Desi.

      Luckily most white people don’t have to face the same pressures when in comes to marriage as Asian girls. Obviously some parents do want their children to get married, but arranged marriages aren’t the norm. Very rarely, I suppose, there will be one, though I cannot say that I have heard of one. Even if there was an arranged marriage, I doubt that the rest of the ‘white community’ would give it their blessing.

      You and Desi both have my sympathy. Of course your parents just want what is best for you, but that doesn’t mean that it is the best thing for you. Unless it is of course.

      I think that I have made my feelings clear.

    75. Amrit — on 18th December, 2008 at 8:59 pm  

      Thank you, Rumbold. The knowledge that there are sweeties like yerself out there, who realise that what we go through is WRONG and UNFAIR, is always reassuring. :D

    76. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 9:50 pm  

      Amrit:

      “Desi - I so feel your pain. When did you start getting an earful about marriage? You must’ve been hearing it for some years, of that much I am sure.”

      Since I was like freaking 6 years old, with my mother yelling at me that if I didn’t learn to make perfect, round rotis, who will marry me? I am not kidding about this.

      Now, it’s “you’re getting to old.” I’m 29 and a half, and I don’t think I’m “old,” but apparently, for Indians, I should have had about 3 kids now, been a dedicated domestic servant, and have dinner ready for the hubby who, if my stars are correctly aligned in my zodiac, will be really wealthy so that we can afford Indian satellite channels and I can spend all my free time shopping for clothes and watching Indian soaps.

      What’s even scary- and frankly, pathetic- is when I heard my aunt speaking to my other aunt Surinder, who had a “viewing” of a potential spouse for her son and had invited my aunt to “see” her. My aunt was telling Surinder Auntie that “I really like her-she’s so pyari, she talks slowly and calmy. And she was doing so much seva, making samosas and parothas for all of us. That’s the kind of girl I want in our family, you know?” And the whole time I’m eavesdropping on this conversation, I’m thinking, “Fuck all of you. It’s exactly women like you who take us other women back at least five decades, nullifying everything that we have struggled through to put ourselves through college, have dreams and ambitions, and work hard for it because we have to deal with people like YOU.”

    77. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 9:54 pm  

      Halima:

      “Would love to say more on this topic - how to cope”

      1. Migrate far, far away as you suggest in your other comment

      2. In your head, tune them out completely

      3. Not attempt to explain yourself, and just play along, that yes, you sadly want to “make something of yourself,” have your own life, and the price that you shall pay for all of these silly notions of “women’s equality,” “independence”, etc is spinsterhood, and yes, they are right, life is shit without having your life tied to a man, without having worked your womb to produce offspring from a “good background”, etc.

    78. Desi Italiana — on 18th December, 2008 at 9:59 pm  

      Halima:

      “and the proposals will dry up?”

      So funny— an “auntie” came from New Zealand to see this family over here. Her son is a doctor (ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, a DOCTOR, because that is THE ultimate qualification for a husband!! Who cares whether he’s an ass or not, whether he’s intelligent or not [intelligence and having the smarts to be a doctor are not always the same thing], whether he unhygenically leaves skid marks on his underwear, whether he is sweet or not, and so on) and she saw me pop into the kitchen to take the dog for a walk. And she told my aunt “You know, I would like that girl for my son” (!!!!! As if she is shopping!). And my aunt said, “I don’t think DI would be interested.” For once, I thanked her for respecting my wishes.

      If some of you PP peeps are thinking, “Damn, DI sure sounds like an angry teenager with a lot of angst against marriage,” you are correct. It is because often, some of us women are treated as if we were very, very young, even if we are grown women and it’s seriously ridiculous how much daily conversations revolve around marriage. Maybe I am just unlucky and got stuck with a social circle where the most backwards, static people orbit, but I wish I could secretly record conversations everyday and post it so that people could see just how heavy each day becomes. Same shit, over and over again. Marriage, shopping, soap operas (often focusing on marriage), marriage, cooking food, marriage. That’s it.

    79. Sunny — on 18th December, 2008 at 10:05 pm  

      Of course Rumbold Clark plays in Partick Thistle’s reserves and is not about to break into the first team!

      The ‘Don Leon’ is obviously the manager of Chelsea. After several dodgy seasons with Napoli.

      hahahaha!!!

    80. Amrit — on 18th December, 2008 at 10:08 pm  

      Oh God, Desi, you are describing my life. This is actually painful.

      Btw, my brother is the youngest of three girls… and training to be a doctor… so you can imagine what joy that is…

      Yesterday my mother told me that me and my brother were not ’streetwise’ because I can’t make roti, and then when I said that it wasn’t fair because I still get expected to do housework DESPITE ONLY BEING HERE FOR A WEEK and being in my final year, she told me not to bring him into it ‘because he’s a boy’ and he’ll be living with her when he’s married. !!!!!!!!!

      Your story about the New Zealand auntie actually made me shriek, and then my mouth hang open. That is DISGUSTING.

      Do you constantly get told that you can’t live alone because if you do, you’ll get murdered and/or end up in an old folks’ home? I get that 24/7. Never mind that I’m only just into my 20s! ‘Living on my own’ and ‘finding a husband later’ are two things that just don’t seem to go together in my mum’s head.

    81. sonia — on 19th December, 2008 at 1:23 am  

      yeah next time let’s definitely do a weeknight as well -So we can get a mix of people - weekends are so booked and especially londoners getting things in diaries MONTHS in advance to have a hope in hell to catch all these busy people..
      leon you’ll have to book it in advance so you can plan work evenings around it! can’t work 5 nights of the week…!:-) you have to eat..(I’m making a list of lovely cheap eateries..there’s the fabulous and cheap bar with thai food down crucifix lane that might be a good option for a weeknight supper/drink. and it’s just behind london bridge so people can be on their trains for 10 pm!

      68 desi - oh dear! the festive season approaches with the family gatherings and people looking ahead to more milestones and ‘what are you doing with your life’ query-traps for the unwary. we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay.

      (this could be our xmas efforts desi! our joint satirical rants remember :-) ..the time is ripe, we’ve missed you over on the 300+ comments thread on the ‘forced marriage’ doctor as the poor lady has come to be known..)

    82. sonia — on 19th December, 2008 at 1:40 am  

      “Just to say - one strategy is to migrate as far away as possible, away , away ….”

      yes good one halima ! :-) one i can recommend heh heh.

      amrit - hang in there! desi - 78- i hear you..its just the taken for granted thing that you couldn’t POSSIBLY want anything else for yourself, never seems to occur to people. that’s what always bugged me - especially from women who proclaim themselves so unhappy and ‘cursed’. i guess that’s it - they were cursed and why should we think we can escape the curse? although i rail against Auntie Syndrome, i guess the really sad thing is that a lot of these women REALLY don’t think we younger women will have any choices, that men are just Horrible Creatures Who Support You therefore have to be obeyed, so just make sure you get a Strong one who can look after you. And be very cynical and bitter about it all so perhaps they really don’t have any hope - because they had none for themselves, crushed out of them.
      its a sad thing if it keeps carrying on, i say.

      Release the aunties! Uncles - take the aunties out and show them a good time! Romance them - do a Bollywood scene and dance! be a hero..go on..underneath those curmudgeonly exteriors, Aunties Just Wanna have fun!

      {a bit of romancing would alsogive them less time to consider ‘prospects’ and other people’s lives. heh.}

      sigh.{problem is all the uncles are hiding somewhere else, in their studies, in the restaurants (those clever blokes aren’t even home at the “same time”, hiding from years of being hen-pecked..}

      *hugs all around!*

    83. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 2:06 am  

      Sonia:

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay.”

      My answer to “are you married yet? Why not?” is:

      “I am having sex with five different men at the moment, but when I am able to choose one of them to marry, I will let you know ASAP. Can you give me your cellphone number so that I can call you with the good news when it happens?”

      I know this is very unclassy, brash, and inappropriate. But it HAS shut up nosey ass effers who feel like they have a right to ask me about my personal life. If they feel like they have a license to ask personal questions, I have the license to give hypothetically personal answers.

      Fight fire with fire.

    84. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 2:22 am  

      SOnia:

      “its just the taken for granted thing that you couldn’t POSSIBLY want anything else for yourself, never seems to occur to people.”

      What’s even more interesting is that here in the Indian American community, some girls and women are encouraged to go to school, have a career, and be “accomplished.” But by the time she is 24/25, mothers and “aunties” start hunting for potential male prey so that the to-be-brides can fall into a pre-formed marital life where she is basically now a housewife. I am not sure if these ladies are playing a joke on their daughters and female relatives all their lives: study hard, work hard, etc and then… do seva for your husband! Raise your kids! Shop til you drop! Record Sa Re Ga Ma!

    85. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 2:26 am  

      “Release the aunties! Uncles - take the aunties out and show them a good time! Romance them - do a Bollywood scene and dance! be a hero..go on..underneath those curmudgeonly exteriors, Aunties Just Wanna have fun!”

      These uncles and aunties should be having more sex. Time spent poking into others’ lives could be spent better by poking each other, if you get my drift.

      I suspect that the lack of a meaningful sex life paves the way for 1) separating love from sex (Bollywood vs. “Reality” [perfunctorily doing things like getting married, doing what is "expected" of you]), and 2) giving them WAY too much time on their hands about bossing and policing others around.

    86. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 2:29 am  

      Sonia:

      “(this could be our xmas efforts desi! our joint satirical rants remember :-) .”

      Chokri, I am once again renewing my appeal to you: let’s have a group blog called “Brown Hussies” or whatever we name we chose on the other thread. It will be snarky, sharp, satirical, etc.

    87. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 2:32 am  

      Amrit:

      “Do you constantly get told that you can’t live alone because if you do, you’ll get murdered and/or end up in an old folks’ home?”

      Already been there, but they have been proven wrong. I’ve been living on my own since I was 18 up until six months ago, and I haven’t been murdered yet.

      But they do say I will die alone because of my resistance at their getting me hitched to a suitable boy.

    88. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 10:42 am  

      Rumbold,

      Luckily most white people don’t have to face the same pressures when in comes to marriage as Asian girls.

      Actually Asian guys frequently get all this too — not always to the same extent as the girls, but there’s still a lot of crap to deal with — but they just don’t always talk about it, except to their closest friends (sometimes not even then).

    89. Rumbold — on 19th December, 2008 at 10:45 am  

      Jai:

      But are Asian men told that they will always have to be obedient to their wife and mother-in-law? Not saying that there isn’t any pressure, but men seem to have a much freer hand, based on my limited experience.

    90. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 10:51 am  

      I am not sure if these ladies are playing a joke on their daughters and female relatives all their lives: study hard, work hard, etc

      No, it’s because they think this will enable the girl to attract a better class of husband.

      It’s all quite Victorian, as I keep saying. From a Western perspective, this sort of mindset (including the behaviour of the “aunties”, matchmaking, social climbing etc) is recognisable in all those historical costume dramas based on old “classic” English novels, Jane Austen etc etc.

    91. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 11:31 am  

      Rumbold,

      But are Asian men told that they will always have to be obedient to their wife and mother-in-law? Not saying that there isn’t any pressure, but men seem to have a much freer hand, based on my limited experience.

      No, but they are often told that any potential bride needs to fit into the family, needs to fit certain conservative criteria (see my joke on the other thread about “Pussycat Dolls” vs “homely girls”), needs to be from certain racial/regional/religious/(sometimes)caste backgrounds, should have limited previous dating experience (or even none at all), there are criteria about the socio-economic/educational backgrounds of the girl’s family (since “it’s a marriage between two families, not two individuals”), and so on.

      Other stuff can include how “worldly” the girl comes across as being, how much she will fit in with/conform with the parents’ (especially the mother’s) extended female relatives network, whether she lived on her own during university and/or during her subsequent career (especially if the parents want the young couple to live under the same roof as them after marriage), whether the girl is perceived as having had “too much freedom” (individually and compared to how liberal/restrictive the guy’s parents have been towards him), how intimidated/threatened the guy’s mother feels by her (which overlaps with how easy it would be for the mother to control/dominate her, along with how much the girl would stand up for herself and her husband if she perceived any injustice towards them by the guy’s parents), even how attractive she is — some mothers will object to the girl being “too attractive” due to jealousy and/or because it will allegedly make the girl “too egotistical” (which actually means “too self-assured”), especially if she is markedly more attractive than most of their other female relatives.

      I could go on but you get the picture. In a nutshell, a lot of it’s to do with how liberal the parents’ upbringing and/or subsequent life has been and what their peer social/familial circles are like. And who the guy is “allowed” to marry can be used as an opportunity to control the son further (or re-initiate control, if there had previously been intergenerational “culture clashes” on that front).

    92. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 11:32 am  

      Of course, none of this is necessarily unique to Asians — hell, half of the plot lines in some American soaps would disappear if, for example, white people didn’t have to deal with parental expectations and politics too, including in relation to who people want to marry — but it’s just that, compared to mainstream Western norms, the level of alleged “veto power” that Asian parents presume to have the full right and authority to exercise over both their sons and their daughters is comparatively more pronounced.

      I think that the very last point is the biggest issue and can turn these situations into horrendously over-complicated political scenarios involving multiple individuals’ egos, insecurities and agendas. I would also hazard a guess that the issue of dating and marriage is the greatest source of intergenerational conflict amongst British Asians, and that if the older generation as a whole were more liberal and less control freakish about the matter then it would remove a huge amount of strife, angst, “identity issues” and so on which occur due to what is fundamentally a power struggle.

    93. Sofia — on 19th December, 2008 at 11:51 am  

      I agree with most of what jai says, however I don’t agree with the whole, it depends on how liberal the parents are..what is liberalism? are there differing degrees? for example, my parents had problems with me going out and partying when i was younger etc etc…because of religious reasons, however they never stopped me pursuing my dreams in other areas…therefore they were quite lax in some ways and very strict in others…i think this is more about challenging societal attitudes as many parents find it hard themselves to be non conformist even if they wanted to…my parents on numerous occasions had to hear from others how they had ‘let’ their daughters get and education and work…(tauba)…yet they were able to ignore those…on the other hand, when nosey aunties made up stories about us, we often found ourselves stopped from going out…at the time i didn’t understand..yet now i do…even though i don’t agree with it, i have recognised some of their constraints. Having said that, when i moved into my in laws i felt completely claustrophobic, and felt like i had a chain around my neck..they are from a different culture and background to mine and I couldn’t wait to get out. This is where I do agree with you Jai, when talking about what is expected in many many cases of an Asian wife. I felt pretty schizo…and still do whenever i go to seem my husband’s family. Apart from religion and language we have absolutely nothing in common and I find it frustrating that I am to conform to them, listen to their bigoted opinions (especialy about Indian muslims-which i am), and their racist attitudes…i’m quite a strong individual and I have found it hard to speak my mind when everyone else does not even want to countenance your point of view…

    94. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:03 pm  

      we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay

      “I’m afraid my naan bread is buttered on the other side, although I quite fancy the look of your daughter.”

      “Depends. How good is he in bed ?”

      “Can my best friend join us on the wedding night ?”

      “I’m afraid my schedule’s quite busy but I should be able to meet him in for about 10 minutes if he wants to pop down to my workplace. Tell him to bring 20 quid and keep his hands to himself. I’m a very good dancer, by the way”.

    95. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:09 pm  

      Sofia, I’d love to hear more about your story…

    96. Desi Italiana — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:13 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      “As long as it’s not your son, bring him on!”

      “I dunno-I’m pretty hard to satisfy in bed, not sure one man can do all.”

      “If he enjoys wearing candy-striped tight briefs and furry handcuffs to bed, sure, I might contemplate marriage.”

      “I am sorry, but I have already decided to procreate, with the help of a sperm bank. I just went shopping for donors yesterday, and guess what?! I chose a NASA scientist to be my baby’s daddy!”

      “Of course! I am actively shopping for a husband, so please do give him my number. It’s 1-900-MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.”

      “I would love to meet him, as long as he fulfills these criteria: cooks, cleans the house, has my ironing done, knows how to be a pleasant hostess when we throw weekly dinner parties full of a bunch of Indians, does my laundry…hey, where are you going?!”

    97. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:24 pm  

      Sofia,

      Sorry to hear about some of the problems you’ve had to deal with.

      it depends on how liberal the parents are..what is liberalism? are there differing degrees?

      I guess it’s a fairly sweeping term and yes there are different degrees; you can obviously use your common sense to figure out the sort of thing I’m referring to. Examples are whether the parents had a “love marriage” themselves and/or whether they have a less conservative/narrow-minded view about pre-marital dating/the whole marriage thing in general — this would obviously make them less likely to veto their son/daughter’s girlfriend/boyfriend on principle (even if there’s nothing actually “wrong” with them) if they don’t object to the idea of dating/love marriages per se. Obviously they might still have (potentially restrictive) “criteria” about the background/type of the prospective son/daughter-in-law. Mothers are also going to be less conservative about their expectations of the girl’s dress & behaviour if they had a greater-than-average degree of freedom in such things themselves before they got married. I could go on but you get the idea; it just depends on the parents’ own individual personalities and life-experiences, along with how obstinate or pragmatic they are.

      Having said that, when i moved into my in laws i felt completely claustrophobic, and felt like i had a chain around my neck..they are from a different culture and background to mine and I couldn’t wait to get out.

      Not living in joint/extended families can help to alleviate a lot of the pressures involved in these situations, both in relation to “familiarity breeding contempt” and also the obvious problems that can occur when you have a bunch of adults living in the same building, most of all when the older adults presume authority over the younger married bunch and also when there are the aforementioned intergenerational Western/Asian “culture clashes”.

      Some Asian parents do realise all this and are therefore okay with giving their married kids some space by not pressuring them to live under the same roof as them. Others, of course, unfortunately do not.

    98. Leon — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:31 pm  

      I’ve deleted the aggressive crap. Please in future ignore threats like that as they will be deleted also.

      I will not tolerate threats of violence (real or virtual) against anyone on PP. If anyone engages in this kind of behaviour they will be banned.

    99. Rumbold — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:34 pm  

      Jai:

      “No, but they are often told that any potential bride needs to fit into the family, needs to fit certain conservative criteria (see my joke on the other thread about “Pussycat Dolls” vs “homely girls”), needs to be from certain racial/regional/religious/(sometimes)caste backgrounds, should have limited previous dating experience (or even none at all), there are criteria about the socio-economic/educational backgrounds of the girl’s family (since “it’s a marriage between two families, not two individuals”), and so on.”

      And once again, all the pressure is on the girl to conform to norms.

      Jai, I’m a bit confused. In Islam, the marriage rules are pretty clear. The girl cannot marry a non-Muslim, while a boy can marry someone ‘of the book’. But what about Sikhism? What is acceptable for Sikh men and women?

      I’m not sure I even understand conversion to Sikhism. Some sources say that all you need to do is to start reading, and believing in, the Guru Granth Sahib, while others say that you need to convert before five members of the Khalsa. And do all converted Sikhs need to be baptized.

    100. Sofia — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:36 pm  

      yay for Leon!

    101. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:41 pm  

      we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay

      “Depends on how he…..measures up.”

      “Can I take him for a test-drive first ?”

      “Is he into ‘pain’ ?”

      “Only if your husband stops staring at my ass all the time”.

      “I hope he doesn’t have any objections to, er, unusual body piercings”.

    102. Sid — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:44 pm  

      Hold on Leon, all Muhammed did was protest douglas clark’s strange, unprovoked attack on #38.


      Oh, for fucks sake, Mu - brain dead - hamad @ post 36 is a complete utter tosser.

      Fuck off Muhamad.

      And Muhammed’s point was simply: would you be so abusive to me in public and to my face, which is a perfectly justifiable claim to make in the light of douglas’ perplexing comment.

      Now I like douglas very much, but he is prone to post completely unprovoked attacks on people. He did it to Shamit the other day and has done so here.

      But I do think Muhammed is completely blameless on this one.

    103. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 12:52 pm  

      Rumbold,

      But what about Sikhism? What is acceptable for Sikh men and women?

      Sikhs are ideally supposed to marry other Sikhs, but no it’s not compulsory. Apart from baptised Sikhs, who supposedly can only marry other baptised Sikhs.

      I’d take the ‘Reht Maryada’ (which Sunny has also previously mentioned) with a pinch of salt, as it wasn’t actually written by any of the Sikh Gurus and is based on other people’s subsequent extrapolations and subjective interpretations of their teachings.

      I’m not sure I even understand conversion to Sikhism.

      You don’t really ‘convert’ to Sikhism in the traditional sense of the term.

      Some sources say that all you need to do is to start reading, and believing in, the Guru Granth Sahib,

      …..and the 10 human Gurus, along with accepting the basic religious tenets and at least trying to practice the basic ideals/expectations of human behaviour.

      while others say that you need to convert before five members of the Khalsa.

      If you’re really committed and want to go the whole hog. Remember that it’s like being inducted into an order of knights, so there are a lot of stricter restrictions, practices and expectations which go with formally joining the Khalsa as opposed to just being an ordinary “everyday Sikh”.

      And do all converted Sikhs need to be baptized.

      See above regarding “conversion” in Sikhism.

    104. Jai — on 19th December, 2008 at 1:22 pm  

      Rumbold,

      And once again, all the pressure is on the girl to conform to norms.

      Not quite — there is also corresponding pressure on how the guy is supposed to behave during all this and also who he is “allowed” to marry/get romantically involved with, along with the specific process involved (dating, arranged marriage etc) — some parents will veto and sometimes actively sabotage their son’s relationship if, for example, they object to the whole principle of pre-marital dating, even if there’s nothing actually “wrong” with the girl concerned, and other under circumstances the parents would be much more amenable to her. This is obviously extrapolated further if there is some supposedly unacceptable difference in the couple’s backgrounds (especially if the girlfriend isn’t Asian) — it’s not just Asian girls’ parents who can go berserk at the notion of “mixed-marriages”, y’know.

      In terms of other conservative expectations — eg. sexual experience, living away from home, degree of independence and “freedom of action” from the parents — sons sometimes do have similar restrictions and “pressures to conform” which are imposed on daughters and potential daughters-in-law.

    105. Muhamad — on 19th December, 2008 at 7:08 pm  

      Leon,
      Why didn’t you delete douglas clark’s foul crap to begin with?
      Why delete my response to his unprovoked name calling?
      He is the one who is telling me to “fuck off” [sign of intelligence] for no apparent reason.
      So you think he’s the right to insult me but I don’t have to right to respond to aggressive crap. Now, clearly his is real aggressive crap as Sid pointed out.

      NOTE TO SUNNY: On that basis if you agree with Leon, then feel free to ban me. This is probably the only way Leon and his friend will get to have an undue influence on my life. I’ll be devastated like Woody Allen not being able to attend the Oscars.
      Whatever you do Sunny, find out why this individual saw fit to insult me when I wasn’t even communicating with this person. Thanks.

    106. Leon — on 19th December, 2008 at 8:40 pm  

      Sid,

      As I saw it, Douglas was mouthing off, not particularly nice but still only words. Muhamad’s post was a threat of violence if seen in real life. I’ve had words with Douglas on more than one occasion about his attitude but he hasn’t (as far as I can remember) threatened anyone directly in the same manner. He’s just been an occasional twat.

      I stand by what I said, I will not tolerate threats of violence real or virtual against anyone.

      Muhamad, don’t be a pathetic wanker and go crying to Sunny. He can make up his own fucking mind. If he wants to over-rule me on this then I can live with that. No problem at all but it aint your fucking place to start throwing threats about like you did.

      Douglas, please stop with the unprovoked attacks, it really doesn’t suit you and I know you’re better than that. If you continue you’ll leave me no choice but to delete your shit and give you a serious fucking bollocking.

    107. Katy Newton — on 19th December, 2008 at 9:40 pm  

      I used to love disemvowelling. Why doesn’t anyone disemvowel anymore? Those were the days.

    108. justforfun — on 20th December, 2008 at 5:09 am  

      Sonia - Too late I’m here - its like back in the 70’s - no real security compared to Heathrow where I had my usual body check - I even offered to chough as I was subjected to my groin search - but the guy did not see the humour

      Abu Dhabi - nice tiling on the ceilings !! As an architect you must have been underwheled- but as you say - no seats! I’m back in the third world again - yeah !!! - except I have alot of choice of diamonds on my watch - I have so long too choose and so many to chosse from.

      Free internet access - so I’ll click away and earn Sunny some money.

      justforun

    109. Rumbold — on 20th December, 2008 at 9:50 am  

      Jai:

      Thanks for all the information about Sikhsim. I did try and research it, but one never knows what sources to trust. Are there many converted Sikhs?

    110. Jai — on 20th December, 2008 at 3:28 pm  

      Rumbold,

      If you mean “converted” in the sense of baptised Sikhs originally from a different religious background, well there is a significant minority although not a huge number. The people who run Sikhnet.com are based in New Mexico and are from a Caucasian background, for example.

      With regards to people who believe in the religion to a lesser or greater extent but may originally be from a different background and haven’t “formally” converted in any strict or overtly identifiable sense, it’s obviously more of a grey area. For example, there are numerous Hindu Punjabis who believe in some or all of the religion’s tenets (like the Bollywood actor Akshay Kumar) but officially self-identify as Hindus rather than Sikhs.

      Like I said, it’s a bit of a blurred area — although it makes sense when you consider that concepts of “conversion” or strictly-delineated religion-based groups are somewhat different in Sikhism compared to some “exclusivist” religions.

      It can be a pretty personal thing for people.

    111. El Cid — on 20th December, 2008 at 4:45 pm  

      What a surreal quarrel.
      Ironic also that Sid comes across as a peacemaker on this one. ;)
      I tell you what, why don’t we all clean the blackboard, eh? Let’s start the new year afresh, with a less belligerent disposition.
      Goodwill and peace to all bloggers, whoever you are.
      Oh, and have a good one tonight.

    112. S Johal — on 20th December, 2008 at 9:52 pm  

      watch you tube video IN THE NAME OF GOD WE KILL [ORISSA}

    113. Desi Italiana — on 20th December, 2008 at 9:56 pm  

      Rumbold:

      “Jai, I’m a bit confused. In Islam, the marriage rules are pretty clear. The girl cannot marry a non-Muslim, while a boy can marry someone ‘of the book’. But what about Sikhism? What is acceptable for Sikh men and women?”

      I haven’t read Jai’s response to your question above, but I know of Sikhs in India (not in the diaspora) who have married Hindus, and there seems to be no problem. Neither party had to “convert,” and I definitely know that for them, the language of “conversion” didn’t even figure into the equation. As far as I know, for some Sikhs in India, these Sikh-Hindu marriages have not been problematic alliances.

    114. Desi Italiana — on 20th December, 2008 at 10:00 pm  

      Rumbold:

      “Luckily most white people don’t have to face the same pressures when in comes to marriage as Asian girls.”

      I agree, but the pressures for marriage for non Asian women exist, although less institutionalized and to a lesser extent. Remember Bridget Jones’ Diary? I think the book was a success precisely because of its subject: Singledom and its stigma.

    115. Desi Italiana — on 20th December, 2008 at 10:05 pm  

      Jai:

      #90:

      “No, it’s because they think this will enable the girl to attract a better class of husband.”

      I am not so sure about that…in my case and the people I know, we have been encouraged to do something brilliant, meaningful, etc (perhaps to accord bragging rights over the success of respective offspring at Indian “functions???). “Go become a doctor, beta.” “Get into the best school.” “Push yourself and study hard.” These are the adages we have been given, and I don’t think it is solely for attracting a man from the same educational and professional pedigree.

      What I’ve seen is that they want you to do this, and then “settle down,” but “settling down” often means either you compromise what you had been doing before, give it up altogether, or in the very least, it will be a struggle to continue and/or pursue your goals, because in most marriages, the following pattern comes out- EVEN WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS FROM BOTH HUSBAND AND WIFE: woman cooks, cleans, rears the children, put her ambitions and career on the backburner until the kids leave the nest, and will have to be willing to move to wherever her husband’s job is or will be, etc. I’ve seen several highly accomplished women who have had to adjust or live out this pattern, and it is both sad and frightening for me.

    116. Desi Italiana — on 20th December, 2008 at 10:10 pm  

      Jia #88:

      “Actually Asian guys frequently get all this too — not always to the same extent as the girls, but there’s still a lot of crap to deal with — but they just don’t always talk about it, except to their closest friends (sometimes not even then).”

      No doubt, but I still maintain that in some cases, it is not nearly half of what South Asian American women (in my case) go through. Not even close. Sure, they may have to eventually “get serious” and choose a proper “bahu”, but they get many years (high school, college, a few years following college or grad school, a few years into their careers) of freedom to do “guy things” (i.e. sowing their wild oats with ladies of their choice) before being expected to do what they are supposed to.

    117. Desi Italiana — on 20th December, 2008 at 10:14 pm  

      Sofia:

      “I felt pretty schizo”

      I’m not married and don’t have to deal with what you have gone through, but I totally understand the sentiment of feeling “pretty schizo” in the face of expectations, the norms that bind us, and the general gender inequality.

    118. Desi Italiana — on 20th December, 2008 at 10:17 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      -”Does he have a big stick shift?”

      -”As long as he has a compassionate heart to accept my STDs.”

    119. douglas clark — on 20th December, 2008 at 11:44 pm  

      Ok.

      You all think I was wrong. but playing the Hussein game, is it now completely my fault?

      Leon says, Leon threatens with this:

      Douglas was mouthing off, not particularly nice but still only words.

      I am unable to defend myself directly, ’cause you have taken down what was said. Including, dammit, what I objected to.

      As far as I am concerned I thought, think, or whatever, that Sunny does not need the sort of criticism that appears to have been directed at him.

      Correct me if I am wrong. From the dead thread?

      I will, subject to your threats, continue to stand up for Sunny Hundal. A free and honest Pickled Politics. Which is nowhere what your Muhhamed stood up for in the first place.

      He lied about Sunny, and you all bought it.

      So, fuck him twice.

      Ban me, there you go.

    120. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 1:51 am  

      Leon,

      Which is what you want, someone that thinks, wrongly perhaps, or rightly obviously, that an an attack, by Muhhamed is an attack on us all.

      Leon has told me what he thinks:

      Douglas, please stop with the unprovoked attacks, it really doesn’t suit you and I know you’re better than that. If you continue you’ll leave me no choice but to delete your shit and give you a serious fucking bollocking.

      But he doesn’t leave me with a defence, ’cause, as far as I can tell I am refused a defence, ’cause neither my comment nor Muhhamed’s are available anymore. I am not really scared of Leon, subject to his apparent right to ban me.

      Which is is a nice trick, given that I thought I was defending what this site was about.

      I will not put up with folk taking the Mickey out of Sunny Hundal, which get’s me angry.

      There are far too many folk that think my genuine disagreements with the man, mean that I do not think he talks enormous sense.

      And, whatever you think, I thought Muhhamed was being insulting.

    121. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 2:15 am  

      You judge, ladies and gentlemen.

      Is Leon right?

      Or am I entitled to take on an idiot?

      This is quite important, I think.

    122. halima — on 21st December, 2008 at 5:46 am  

      “I agree, but the pressures for marriage for non Asian women exist, although less institutionalized and to a lesser extent. Remember Bridget Jones’ Diary? I think the book was a success precisely because of its subject: Singledom and its stigma.”

      Good point Desi. I know many, many single white friends - and under tremondous pressure - first child in te family etc, pressure to produce a grand child. Have i mentioned the joke about single girls in the aid business - develoment spinsters? No matter how many times I correct them, and say it’s Aid Babes, the stereotype of a single female exists. And it also replicates itself when couples invite each other to dinner parties - and having a single female at a dinner table is somehow seen as an odd thing. It’s very stubtle in white families - bt the pressure is there. Part of it’s also linked with fear among the husbands and wives that a single female will want to lead a husband a stray. The wider point there (and someting in common with asian families, too) is that being single inevitably means this person will cause mischief. And if this single female can also string a sentense together while also being vaguely pretty - she’s had it. Whereas if you’re a bloke there’s hardly concern about him being single - in fact he’s considered an asset at a party. The reason why this is more pronounced in the aid business is because often men relocate overseas - with a wife and child and it all works - the nuke family set up. But it’s very hard for a woman to convinve her partner to relocate - and thouhgh it happens, it’s very rare. In fact, being in my overseas job I have been struck by how conservative and conformist my white friends are when it comes to personal relationships and marriage and children. I never quite saw it that way - but i can honestly say, it’s quite rare to meet a woman with a partner whose given up his career to support her - and a career that’s equally important to him, that is, so the choice has been stark. And these are open minded, well educated middle to upper middle class folks who have been bought up to respect women’s rights ( hence working to reduce world poverty and stick up for human/gender rights etc). The few times I’ve come across women whose partners have made these career choices for them - are actually British South Asian women - now that tells you something. Yes, there are many women who have male partners from economically less stronger parts of the world - but that’s been an economic choice, not purely about respecting the other person’s career choices. But relocating to another country is quite a big deal - and doing so as a trailing spouse is also quite a big step so i understand the choices are hard, but they illustrate gender dynamics quite well I think. So makes you think about gender bending and how conformist families generally are - whether they are white or Asian or from other communities.

    123. halima — on 21st December, 2008 at 5:49 am  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      “Would she be happy if i prefer to have dal bat at home and a tiffin outside?”

    124. halima — on 21st December, 2008 at 5:53 am  

      “If some of you PP peeps are thinking, “Damn, DI sure sounds like an angry teenager with a lot of angst against marriage,” you are correct. It is because often, some of us women are treated as if we were very, very young, even if we are grown women”

      Ha hah!! But you know what I can honestly say even in the office/work place, my colleagues treat me as very young because i am not married or have children. So I don’t blame my parents who are a little more sheltered than my colleagues if they behave in the same way. It’s like you haven’t grown up yet if you haven’t procreated. It’s really scarry how conservative folks are deep down - despite their progressive credintials they maintain when they debate/discuss the world at large.

    125. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 7:36 am  

      And, Leon, don’t get me wrong. If someone was aggressive towards you, they could expect my scorn too.

      It’s what I do.

      I think I know who the good guys are. You appear to be a tad ambivalent….

      Which is fine, if I am wrong, which I sometimes am.

      But don’t assume it is done out of badness. It is mainly done out of a desire to see this site stand by it’s principles.

      Muhammed characterised our host, in a jokey way, as a terrorist. AFAIK. Least, that’s the way I saw it.

      You expect me to let that go?

      My loyalty on here is to Sunny. Largely speaking, though it is towards some other authors, including you.

      But I will not surrender the right to call people to account when I think they are wrong.

      If I have fucked up, I apologise.

      But, explain to me, how, exactly have I done that?

      No referring to deleted posts, thanks.

      The basic points this site stands for, are what I stand for.

    126. Desi Italiana — on 21st December, 2008 at 7:43 am  

      Douglas:

      “You judge, ladies and gentlemen.

      Is Leon right?

      Or am I entitled to take on an idiot?

      This is quite important, I think.”

      I think you are a sweetie on PP(cyberistically, since I don’t know you personally), but sometimes your comments do raise my eyebrows because I have no idea what you are taking issue with, and it seems like you are shadow boxing with some commentators. The comments
      you have made to Muhamad was completely uncalled for (including calling him a “complete idiot,” and this is, BTW, a personal attack aimed at a person you have never met before), IMO, because I don’t think any of his comments could be misconstrued to be attacking Sunny.

      And I am unsure what you are referring to about taking Sunny on, and Muhamad trying to manhandle PP into something besides its objectives. I didn’t see any of that. And hell, if taking on Sunny is the case here, I should be the first one to get cussed out because my comments to Sunny have been quite combative and snarky-far more than any of Muhamad’s comments that I’ve ever seen. And on top of that, some of my snark is actually serious, not being comically spunky- I ain’t messing when I call Sunny out.

      Now, can we move beyond this cyber-slogging and talk about fucked up gender inequalities instead?

      Halima, will get back to your comments. I’m off to watch SNL with me friend.

    127. Desi Italiana — on 21st December, 2008 at 7:46 am  

      Douglas:

      “And, Leon, don’t get me wrong. If someone was aggressive towards you, they could expect my scorn too….My loyalty on here is to Sunny. Largely speaking, though it is towards some other authors, including you.”

      I think you are taking all of this way too seriously? Lighten up, it’s the web. Pop open a beer Sarah Palin style, kick back, and then look at the computer screen ;)

    128. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 7:59 am  

      Desi,

      And I am unsure what you are referring to about taking Sunny on, and Muhamad trying to manhandle PP into something besides its objectives. I didn’t see any of that. And hell, if taking on Sunny is the case here, I should be the first one to get cussed out because my comments to Sunny have been quite combative and snarky–far more than any of Muhamad’s comments that I’ve ever seen. And on top of that, some of my snark is actually serious, not being comically spunky– I ain’t messing when I call Sunny out.

      Point.

      I saw it one way, Mo saw it another.

      However, I reserve the right to stand up for either you or Sunny when I think you have been attacked unfairly. Perhaps wrongly.

      I have done that, on both your accounts in the past, and I have disagreed strongly with both of you too.

      I saw this as unfair. That’s all.

      Anyway. When are you and Sunny going to get engaged?

    129. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 8:35 am  

      Desi,

      Thanks.

      ré:

      I think you are taking all of this way too seriously? Lighten up, it’s the web. Pop open a beer Sarah Palin style, kick back, and then look at the computer screen

      No.

      Leon has made a comment that I am not happy about. Which is his right. I, however, feel a tad diminished by it. It is a power play by someone I saw as a friend. Who may have balance on his side, and virtue. But who hasn’t seen the wood from the trees.

      I am not happy about that.

      Frankly, it goes a bit beyond who was right and who was wrong. It goes to the heart of internet comment.

      Leon has said that he will:

      Douglas, please stop with the unprovoked attacks, it really doesn’t suit you and I know you’re better than that. If you continue you’ll leave me no choice but to delete your shit and give you a serious fucking bollocking.

      He’s right to say that unprovoked attacks don’t really suit me. I’m not sure that that goes equally for provoked attacks. Which is the way I saw it, rightly or wrongly.

      And I’m supposed to lie down and take that? No way, Desi. You wouldn’t take that either. You certainly wouldn’t.

      I - still - consider what Mo said to be wrong.

      Storms, teacups, who knows?

      Thanks anyway kid, I love you, sort of. Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year……

    130. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 1:17 pm  

      Sure,

      I thought it was offensive, and not in an amusing way.

      We all know what Sunny thinks about Barack Obama, and it is amusing to see him getting poked about it. Equally, though I missed it to be honest, Hilary Hundal is quite good alliteration. She is also a Democrat.

      Linking Sunnys’ name with an evil dictator was not at all funny.

      At least, not to me. Would you have thought me out of my mind had I posted Hitler Hundal?

      Of course you would.

      To me, this was just as objectionable.

      And, of course, you are now going to remind me of Barack Obama’s middle name. I thought Saddam, perhaps others thought Obama. Perhaps you are all right and I am all wrong.

      So, yes, I went in with the boots on and I regret the swearing.

      I should just have posted:

      WTF?

      But it would have meant the same thing.

      Sorry, sense of humour bypass.

    131. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 1:23 pm  

      Sid,

      I have replied to a post that I can’t see anymore.

      Any comment?

    132. Sid — on 21st December, 2008 at 1:29 pm  

      I think an apology to Muhammed is in order but we all know it’s sad, so sad, why can’t we talk it over, always seems to me, sorry seems to be the hardest word…

      http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ1tBYV1cgU

    133. Sid — on 21st December, 2008 at 1:58 pm  

      Anyway, a small but enthusiastic bunch of picklers met up in Baker St last night. Amrit, Nesrine, Rumbold and Sonia, along with Sunny and Siobhan turned up. A good time was had by all.

    134. Rumbold — on 21st December, 2008 at 2:10 pm  

      Indeed Sid.

      Douglas:

      I thought ‘Hussein Hundal’ was a Obama-based joke. ‘Saddam Hundal’ would have been a ‘Saddam Hussein based joke. Just some crossed wires I think.

    135. douglas clark — on 21st December, 2008 at 2:12 pm  

      Muhammed,

      As I got the wrong end of the stick, which is unfortunately not as unusual for me as I’d like -

      SORRY!

      dougie.

    136. El Cid — on 21st December, 2008 at 2:19 pm  

      You know Dougie, if it’s any consolation, I’ve never ever seen Sid say sorry.

    137. Rumbold — on 21st December, 2008 at 2:29 pm  

      Jai:

      “With regards to people who believe in the religion to a lesser or greater extent but may originally be from a different background and haven’t “formally” converted in any strict or overtly identifiable sense, it’s obviously more of a grey area. For example, there are numerous Hindu Punjabis who believe in some or all of the religion’s tenets (like the Bollywood actor Akshay Kumar) but officially self-identify as Hindus rather than Sikhs.”

      Some Hindus still seem to have a pretty eclectic approach to religion- but what about in this country? Are there many white Sikhs?

      Desi:

      “As far as I know, for some Sikhs in India, these Sikh-Hindu marriages have not been problematic alliances.”

      Interesting. I suppose that some forms of Sikhism don’t seem too different from Hinduism.

    138. Sid — on 21st December, 2008 at 3:11 pm  

      heh mr clark, you’ve a big soul.

    139. Amrit — on 21st December, 2008 at 3:20 pm  

      Rumbold:

      Most of the white Sikh contingent are located in America or Canada, I think because in many cases, Sikh communities there were forced to assimilate in a way that they have been relatively free from in this country, what with multiculturalism, and hence they were consequently more accepting of people going ‘the other way’.

      Though this is going to sound bad, I think that because many Sikhs coming into this country had the the freedom to behave more or less exactly as they did ‘back home’, communities have remained more hermetically-sealed in terms of race than in America. Not that you don’t get the same thing there, but there is a greater awareness of Indian cultures in general in Britain (what with our close colonial relationship with India…), so people are not generally as pressed to conform to the WASP norm, or whatever.

      Generally, since Sikhism is not a proselytising religion, people converting of their own volition is A Good Thing. The problem any white Sikh might have with this is the problem many serious devotees would have - that of the disparity between the Sikh religion and Indian culture. Many of the white Sikhs are acknowledged to be better Sikhs than Punjabis themselves! However, people will always pull the race card to authenticate themselves (’I'm brown and Indian, ergo I’m better’) when it suits them.

      Good to see everyone yesterday ;-) . We have to have a really big one at some point, and in future Sunny would do well to actually let people other than the writers know if there’s a meet! Hah.

    140. Leon — on 21st December, 2008 at 4:41 pm  

      I thought ‘Hussein Hundal’ was a Obama-based joke. ‘Saddam Hundal’ would have been a ‘Saddam Hussein based joke. Just some crossed wires I think.

      That was my assessment also, and why I thought Doug overreacted. But the fact remains that he only used words, ill chosen words, and the other guys raised the stakes with a threat of violence.

      I stand by my judgement (of both posters responses) and by my actions resolutely.

    141. Leon — on 21st December, 2008 at 4:44 pm  

      To add to the above I now consider this the end of the matter and will not be commenting further (bar a Hundal intervention).

      Apologies for not making it yesterday, my day started a little later than planned, a few things I wanted to get done kinda got away from me (I’m not in the best of moods this week as perhaps you can tell)…hope to meet all you lovely people at some point early in the New Year! :)

    142. Jai — on 21st December, 2008 at 5:55 pm  

      Rumbold,

      but what about in this country? Are there many white Sikhs?

      Not as far as I know.

      A lot of Sikhs from non-Asian backgrounds turn up on Sikhnet’s discussion forum, though.

      Interesting. I suppose that some forms of Sikhism don’t seem too different from Hinduism.

      Historically, marriages between Sikhs and Hindus have been fairly common. Also, it used to be a tradition amongst many Hindus in that part of India for the eldest son to be brought up as a (practising) Sikh.

      I also agree with Desi Italiana’s post #113 and Amrit’s post #139.

      Incidentally, regarding the matter of religious syncretism in the subcontinent, you may find it interesting to check out the current edition of The Economist — it has quite a lengthy article on Sufism in South Asia (especially Pakistan), both in terms of its history & cultural impact in that part of the world and the contrast with the more literal, “legalistic” approach of the Taliban and Wahhabism.

      Despite the impression that may be gained here in the West (due to the media, the events of the past decade, and — in some quarters — the apparently increasing conservatism of British Muslims, especially Pakistanis, re: hijabs/burkhas etc), and despite the claims of Anjem Choudary-types and the Pizza HuT crowd online and in the real world, the majority of South Asian Muslims (especially in India) actually tend to follow various interpretations of the Sufi tradition. I think you’d find the article fascinating reading. It’s quite poignant in some places too.

    143. Jai — on 21st December, 2008 at 6:14 pm  

      but “settling down” often means either you compromise what you had been doing before, give it up altogether, or in the very least, it will be a struggle to continue and/or pursue your goals, because in most marriages, the following pattern comes out– EVEN WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS FROM BOTH HUSBAND AND WIFE: woman cooks, cleans, rears the children, put her ambitions and career on the backburner until the kids leave the nest, and will have to be willing to move to wherever her husband’s job is or will be, etc. I’ve seen several highly accomplished women who have had to adjust or live out this pattern, and it is both sad and frightening for me.

      Correct, although none of this is specific to South Asians. Halima’s observations about white people along similar lines in #122 are pretty accurate too.

      but they get many years (high school, college, a few years following college or grad school, a few years into their careers) of freedom to do “guy things” (i.e. sowing their wild oats with ladies of their choice) before being expected to do what they are supposed to.

      Seems to vary according to the particular family, I think. I agree that plenty of Indian parents (as always, I’m talking about people in the UK as I’m not in much of a position to comment accurately on the US) cut their sons a fair amount of slack, but plenty do not. Not all guys are given a “free hand” to do whatever they want before marriage, certainly not in relation to attempts to “sow their wild oats” and so on.

      If the parents have a fairly conservative (and strongly disapproving) view of pre-marital relationships in general then they can be as restrictive, domineering, and (in some cases) threatening towards their sons as they are towards their daughters.

      But yes, I agree that, generally-speaking, the pressure and repercussions can be more severe for young Indian women compared to the guys.

    144. Jai — on 21st December, 2008 at 6:46 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      “I’d be happy to meet your son, as long as I can find a babysitter at the time”.

      or…..

      “Sure, that should be fine. My therapist says it’s safe for members of the opposite sex to be alone with me now”.

      or…..

      “Well as long as Bunty doesn’t slap a restraining order on me afterwards. God knows I’ve got enough of those already”.

      or…..

      “I’d love to meet your son. I don’t really need to go to those sex addict meetings so often now, although I’m finding it to be a great way to meet guys, I mean girls, I mean make friends, I mean…..Christ, I had no idea you could run so fast, auntie…..”

      ;)

    145. Amrit — on 21st December, 2008 at 7:36 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      ‘Just let me pack my incontinence nappy and we’ll be off.’

      ‘Is your son into biting? I like biting. Especially if it leaves marks. The purpler, the better!’

      ‘I don’t know Auntie… why don’t we ditch your son and make it a night, the two of us?’

      ‘Well, I must warn you that he might meet my ‘other’ personality. I do try to keep her under control but sometimes at functions, she gets loose. It’s hard you know, coming off the medication.’

      ‘Tell him to bring a friend and we can make it a threesome!’

    146. BenSix — on 21st December, 2008 at 8:05 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      “Have you ever seen the film Heartbreakers? No? Eeexcellent…”

      “Christ, I only support equal opportunities to an extent…”

      “Been there, done him, got it all over my t-shirt.”

      (Last one stolen from a friend.)

      Ben

    147. persephone — on 21st December, 2008 at 9:24 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      Oh Auntiji it is good to know that he has very good family values… because then he won’t mind moving in with me and my parents after we get married then

      Yes I can cook & clean Auntiji. But can he service the car and do a spot of plastering?

    148. Amrit — on 21st December, 2008 at 9:36 pm  

      ‘Can I have his trouser-snake measurements, so that I know whether to bring my dildo or not?’

      Variation on persephone’s:

      ‘Yes I can cook & clean Auntiji. But can he service my clit and do a spot of cunnilingus?’

    149. Refresh — on 21st December, 2008 at 10:05 pm  

      Enough - or we start rating the threads.

    150. persephone — on 21st December, 2008 at 10:06 pm  

      Amrit, thats outrageous! But its good to know that men have a worthy purpose in life ;-)

    151. persephone — on 21st December, 2008 at 10:07 pm  

      A few more..

      I would love to get married as I can’t seem to get out of debt by myself

      He wants a picture of me? Of course, in fact he can see lots of me on web-cam at hot girlz.com

      Yes I ‘d love to meet though I get so nervous at these meetings but having a coupla whiskey shots first helps

      Oh I already know him Auntiji, he’s my dealer

      I don’t get out of bed for anything less than £10,000

      He’s a good asian boy who has never dated? Don’t worry I am very experienced

      He drives a top of the range ferrari? Is that because he has a small danda?

      They are looking for a fair girl like me? Why is he into white girls then?

      He’s a doctor? I’m so excited about that!! He can help me find the g spot … Auntiji you don’t know what that is ? well it’s found somewhere…

      He’s a lawyer? That’s great! He can defend me in this stalking case with my last boyfriend

      You want to arrange an overseas meeting? Let me check as it may break my bail conditions

      The boy’s family are VERY wealthy? Oh goody then they can pay for the cost of the wedding

    152. Leon — on 21st December, 2008 at 11:23 pm  

      Too much info!!!

    153. Amrit — on 21st December, 2008 at 11:48 pm  

      LOL! Look at this! Y’all aren’t exactly showing your feminist colours here *giggles*.

      And Refresh, I’m not meaning to be rude or anything, but I thought that PP was generally all adults anyway…

      I have to say, I’m more than a little annoyed that you’re treating such terms as if they’re swear-words…

      Persephone, please can you pop by my blog and leave me your email address or something (I’ll delete it immediately afterwards)? You make such great comments!

    154. BenSix — on 22nd December, 2008 at 12:04 am  

      “Marriage? Hmm…I’m not sure that I can fit another one in this week…”

      “Oooh, yes! Let me be Clytemnestra to his Agamemnon!”

      “And Refresh, I’m not meaning to be rude or anything, but I thought that PP was generally all adults anyway…”

      No 18+ material, please, ‘cos I’m sensitive as shit, like…

    155. Leon — on 22nd December, 2008 at 12:28 am  

      LOL! Look at this! Y’all aren’t exactly showing your feminist colours here *giggles*.

      Haha! I’m not a feminist, and worse I’m cursed; words appear as real imagery in my head (despite my best efforts to stop them)!

    156. Refresh — on 22nd December, 2008 at 1:30 am  

      ‘And Refresh, I’m not meaning to be rude or anything, but I thought that PP was generally all adults anyway…’

      Generally…

      I don’t think you’re being rude - it does raise an interesting point though. Being an adult means different things to different people, and probably varies across generations.

    157. Desi Italiana — on 22nd December, 2008 at 7:07 am  

      “Anyway. When are you and Sunny going to get engaged?”

      Too late, never gonna happen. I succumbed to my naseeb, which is to embrace a life full of standing in the kitchen naked and barefoot, making rotis.

      I had a viewing yesterday.

      My family introduced me to a nice Punjabi Sikh doctor from Chandigarh. He is about 6′4, which will make us a cute couple because I am under 5 feet. He is fair-skinned, so there will be a 50% chance that my kids will come out fair, which is good, because this is how our society is, and fair skinned people are much more prized. I have put aside my own views on this for the survival of my genes and the hope that my children will be able to exploit whatever societal advantages they may have within their reach. His parents were keen on my educational attainments, which is a BA and an MA. They would, however, like to see me devote my time to my responsibilities, which is taking care of their son and our future progeny. They were also pleased with my thick black hair and long eyelashes. They think this will augur good-looking grandchildren.

      As far as the my future spouse goes, he LOOKS like a nice guy. I didn’t really feel anything when I saw him, but my sagacious aunts inform me that in our society, we fall in love after marriage, not the other way around. They also advised me on what would happen on my wedding night. I have chucked my memories of previous lovers so as to not have anything to compare my future husband too. I should not have any expectations in order to not be disappointed if things don’t go the way I expected or imagined them to.

      He’s got a nice butt, so maybe it will work out.

    158. Desi Italiana — on 22nd December, 2008 at 7:13 am  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      “Is he equipped enough to rope me in?”

      “YES, only if he agrees to be the daddy of my five children.”

      “Only if you let me ride.”

      “Depends on what kind of car he wants to park in my garage.”

    159. Katy Newton — on 22nd December, 2008 at 7:20 am  

      @Desi: tall men are like gold dust. TAKE HIM. Or send him straight to me.

    160. Desi Italiana — on 22nd December, 2008 at 7:33 am  

      “@Desi: tall men are like gold dust. TAKE HIM. Or send him straight to me.”

      What if he’s impotent?

      Then, it will be all my fault that five years have passed and I haven’t conceived yet, no heirs baking in the oven, etc.

    161. Katy Newton — on 22nd December, 2008 at 8:59 am  

      Then you need to ask if he HAS a car to park in your garage.

    162. Rumbold — on 22nd December, 2008 at 10:12 am  

      Amrit:

      “Most of the white Sikh contingent are located in America or Canada, I think because in many cases, Sikh communities there were forced to assimilate in a way that they have been relatively free from in this country, what with multiculturalism, and hence they were consequently more accepting of people going ‘the other way’.”

      Interesting point. I know very little about Canada’s integration policy, but there does seem to have been some anti-Sikh policies there recently.

      http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2007/07/23/names-immigration.html

      “Not that you don’t get the same thing there, but there is a greater awareness of Indian cultures in general in Britain (what with our close colonial relationship with India…), so people are not generally as pressed to conform to the WASP norm, or whatever.”

      But you would think that if that was the case, then more people would be interested in Sikhism, because they would know more about it.

      “However, people will always pull the race card to authenticate themselves (’I’m brown and Indian, ergo I’m better’) when it suits them.”

      Yes, I was wondering how widespread those sort of attitudes were.

      Jai:

      “Incidentally, regarding the matter of religious syncretism in the subcontinent, you may find it interesting to check out the current edition of The Economist — it has quite a lengthy article on Sufism in South Asia (especially Pakistan).”

      I have got the latest issue, just haven’t read it all yet.

      “The majority of South Asian Muslims (especially in India) actually tend to follow various interpretations of the Sufi tradition.”

      But they will never make the front pages because they aren’t trying to blow people up.

      Thanks for all the information on the topic- Fascinating.

    163. Amrit — on 22nd December, 2008 at 11:31 am  

      Desi:

      No heirs baking in the oven?! LOL. Your viewing sounds disturbing, which is not surprising to me. I’m hoping to avoid all that myself through the use of what is now a strategically-placed lie with my rentals.

      Rumbold:

      ‘But you would think that if that was the case, then more people would be interested in Sikhism, because they would know more about it.’

      Steady on there matey, all it means is that people here in GB are more likely to know that it exists and is a separate religion to Hinduism. A lot of people are still enormously ignorant of the tenets of the religion. Also, they look at the turbanned, bearded men and tend to get put off. Baptised Sikhs also have to refrain from meat and alcohol, so y’know… Most of them don’t realise that you can be a Sikh without being amritdhari (I recommend Googling that and looking at the second link for an idea of how nutso some amritdhari Sikhs can be…).

      ‘Yes, I was wondering how widespread those sort of attitudes were.’

      Sadly, there’s no way to say. It really depends on the person. I think people will do the typical thing of doubting a new convert until they’ve ‘proven themselves’, but as in other religions, wearing the turban and all that seems to count for more than actually following the philosophy. What can I say, people like ritual! I think if people see you participating in worship, that helps. You get guys showing up with turbans over cut hair and blatantly shaved beards… it’s stupid how much symbolism takes the place of faith, but not particularly surprising.

      That is a pretty anti-Sikh measure, I’m surprised there hasn’t been more uproar. It sounds like discrimination proper.

      Good luck on your info quest and if you have any more Qs, do ask away. :-D

    164. Jai — on 22nd December, 2008 at 12:46 pm  

      “we should have a good juicy discussion about witty one-liners to have prepared for you for such occasions and how to keep the Aunties at bay”

      “I don’t get into bed for anything less than £10,000″.

      or, if you really want to knock out auntieji…..

      “I hope your son’s better in bed than your husband was”.

    165. Desi Italiana — on 22nd December, 2008 at 6:32 pm  

      “How sumptuous are his gulaab jamun?”

      “Is his kebab juicy and delicious?”

    166. persephone — on 22nd December, 2008 at 7:22 pm  

      Amrit @ 153 Hey thanks. Your blog is good, have left a comment

    167. Desi Italiana — on 22nd December, 2008 at 7:42 pm  

      Halima #122:

      “In fact, being in my overseas job I have been struck by how conservative and conformist my white friends are when it comes to personal relationships and marriage and children….And these are open minded, well educated middle to upper middle class folks who have been bought up to respect women’s rights ( hence working to reduce world poverty and stick up for human/gender rights etc)….So makes you think about gender bending and how conformist families generally are - whether they are white or Asian or from other communities.”

      I agree. I can’t speak for the aid community in particular, but the things you point out are the things I have seen and referred to in some of my comments above, about strong, intelligent, degrees-holding women having to resign to the very patterns that many of them previously fought against, whether in South Asian American AND non-South Asian families.

      But I still have to say, that while recognizing that our non South Asian American/Asian counterparts share the same similarities w/r/t pressure on women to conform, I am confident to say that this is much more practiced and expected in the South Asian diaspora, and there is less wiggle room for those women who choose to not conform as opposed to other places, like the US and Western Europe. And I’d like to underline “diaspora” because there is often the tendency for the elders in the diaspora to argue that “this is how it is done in our society/back home” when that is just not entirely accurate. It is true that majority of Indians engage in the marital dynamics that we have been outlining here, but this is rapidly changing with the young 20-somethings in major urban centers in India. And not only, but I have also met Indian women in their 30s and 40s who have decided to dedicate their lives to work (like fighting for human rights, working in certain industries that they believe will strengthen civil society, etc) and have made the decision to not get married. Point being, things “back home” and “in our society” are not uniformly conservative and conformist, and there are people who are going against the grain.

    168. Rumbold — on 22nd December, 2008 at 8:37 pm  

      Amrit:

      “A lot of people are still enormously ignorant of the tenets of the religion.”

      That’s true. But then I suppose that Sikhism isn’t in the news in the same with Islam is, for example.

      “Good luck on your info quest and if you have any more Qs, do ask away.”

      Thank you very much.

    169. Sid — on 22nd December, 2008 at 8:50 pm  

      That’s true. But then I suppose that Sikhism isn’t in the news in the same with Islam is, for example.

      But even the tenets of Islam that attract air time are hardly the ones that the majority of a billion Muslims derive spiritual succour from. The newsworthy ones are the ones that are obviously at odds with the modern world and in dire need of reform or abrogation.

    170. Rumbold — on 22nd December, 2008 at 8:58 pm  

      True enough. But the media churn out so much information that people get a vague idea of the most important bits; one good, the prophet Muhammad, the Hajj, prayer.

    171. halima — on 22nd December, 2008 at 9:50 pm  

      Desi

      Sure - it goes without saying our South Asian sisters - whether in US/Europe or Asia go through way more pressures to conform. Absolutely - and there’s hardly any chat or acknowledgment about these pressures - on top of the every day pressures everyone else has. Personally I think I never put on weight because of such pressures - and the hundred things that i mediate when i approach a typical week. But just trying to trace the thread a little across continents/cultures.

      Also - even with South Asian women (in US/Europe) there are differences in experiences and barriers. Most of my South Asian girlfriends have faced immense problems just going to college - age 16 the expectation was to marry and there was no encouragement to study or pursue a career. This is more common in low income households and families. Typically there will be no role models that have studied. With some friends there was just parents actively preventing them from studying or reading books - waste of time etc. Some of these girlfriends are now my cleverest and successful friends i know and truly inspirational. It don’t mean the parents were all bad for preventing their daughters; it just means that providing education alone, state supported, doesn’t do the trick. With all public services the middle classes make better use of them - because they are more aware, connected, have better social capital to get on and move on and support the kids through education system. For groups with less social capital - we need work on increasing demand from these groups. So more investment in encouraging better take-up of services would’ve helped.

      Going back to your last point about Indian women in their 30s and 40s making the choice not to marry - yes, it seems increasingly so. I spoke to a Sri Lankan colleague recently who works on human rights here, and she said that is exactly what she did - but it’s been helped by the fact that her peers are all educated and have good income - and she’s developed a peer support network of more women like her. So yes, they are going against the grain - but can do because they have education and economic independence.

      This is why i would bang on about education, education, education …. not culture, culture, culture…

    172. Desi Italiana — on 22nd December, 2008 at 11:40 pm  

      Halima:

      “So yes, they are going against the grain - but can do because they have education and economic independence.”

      Totally. And more than education, I would say economic independence is key (because sometimes, having a degree does not guarantee a job or career- don’t know if this is the case right now because of the current recession, or if it is like this always).

      But now I feel like we are jumbling together another host of issues, like socio-economic status intersecting with gender. It’s understandable the constraints some women feel because they are economically dependent on someone else and thus find it hard to set off onto their own; but what interests me is how-and WHY- women from middle class backgrounds who went to college, have degrees, and some having even their own careers, and could be or ARE financially independent choose to conform and will somehow tumble into a lifestyle that goes against the freedom and independence they used to have prior to marriage (or even a live-in relationship). Is it too hard to row against the tide? Does it make one more miserable? Is the comfort that comes from conformity more preferable?

      I would like to add that there is a certain Auntie school of thought which argues that if you “settle down” with a wealthy significant other, that could possibly facilitate and allow you to pursue your ambitions (i.e. he may pay for your tuition, or if he’s successful at bringing home the bacon, this leaves you to dedicate yourself to your passion, like freelance writing, without having to worry about working just to pay the bills. Cogently, this argument can be summed up as “Conforming may actually give you the opportunity to fulfill some of your ambitions and dreams, while nonconforming may present an obstacle to some of the things you really want.”

    173. Desi Italiana — on 23rd December, 2008 at 12:00 am  

      And the amount of parental control over adult children who are, say, in their late 20s and 30s is unbelievable. Like why are people who are independent, have a career, etc, resigning themselves to their parents’ wishes for getting married with a “suitable” groom or bride? It’s like the Indian and Pakistani software engineer immigrants in the US who are millions of miles away from India, their social circles, and parents; they don’t want to get married, they are happy the way they are, they might even be seeing people here, and STILL, they agree to fulfilling their parents’ wishes about going “back home” and “finding” someone to “settle down” with.

    174. persephone — on 23rd December, 2008 at 12:06 am  

      “Auntie school of thought which argues that if you “settle down” with a wealthy significant other, that could possibly facilitate and allow you to pursue your ambitions”

      From observation, the type of man who is successful, wealthy marries largely:

      1)trophy wife - trophy being her looks/youth/ ancestry

      2)trophy wife - trophy being her equivalent professional/career status

      3)corporate wife - normally lower education/no career & will bring up the kids, move home location dependant upon hubbies work & not her own dreams (all in all no ego threat & no power struggle)

      Unless the man wants 1 or 3, most wealthy successful men with an educated/career woman want to build further wealth & status & not fund what they see as fluffy dreams as they are normally very commercially minded.

      Perhaps ask auntiji what dreams her husband funds for her? (The answer is not paying for the B4U subscription)

      This is really another of their psychological ruses to get your head around the idea of marriage by pressing your particular buttons. Like the one that your husband will also fund your further education.

      Plus the question I would ask is that if he is so generous & understanding (to who at this point is a stranger …) & free thinking then why is he going through an arranged marriage?

    175. persephone — on 23rd December, 2008 at 12:15 am  

      @ 173 because they believe wives/husbands from back home are more family orientated/less westernised.

    176. Desi Italiana — on 23rd December, 2008 at 12:26 am  

      “because they believe wives/husbands from back home are more family orientated/less westernised.”

      because they are sick of cooking their own daal, bhaat, subji, and roti, which are not even tasty enough to eat.

    177. Desi Italiana — on 23rd December, 2008 at 12:37 am  

      ““because they believe wives/husbands from back home are more family orientated/less westernised.””

      I am not sure whether American born Desi women WANT a guy who is “less westernized,” particularly given the way Indian born and raised men are stereotyped (i.e. “backwards,” chauvenist, etc).

      However, there is a certain segment of the American born Desi female population that have this fantasy of a well-to-do Indian doctor/engineer/businessman Kunal Kapoor/Hrithik Roshan looking type living in a nice marble palace in New Delhi or a posh apt in Bombay on Marine Dr. who is the new face of the MODERN INDIAN MAN.

      See here: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2488#comment-136406

    178. halima — on 23rd December, 2008 at 6:48 am  

      I guess I never seperate socio-economics from much - and especially where gender is concerned.

      But going back to your point why professional women give up their previous independence and settle for .. what have you. I think this is about how society values women ultimately .. ultimately society values women as nurturers .. and deep down human beings all crave for their place in the pecking order - sometimes we call it identity - the human condition crave for identity. For women this search for identity is bound up with notions of femininity and roles as mothers, girlfriends, wives- less so as sisters. And many women will also want children and where there is a reproductive twist and clock involved they will choose this over their careers. Many women combine both but it gets harder and harder - and this is why I big up working Mums in particular - I find it hard enough operating without kids and managing the quirks of life. Imagine a different future .. I can’t yet. Too scarry.

    179. persephone — on 26th December, 2008 at 11:46 am  

      ” For women this search for identity is bound up with notions of femininity and roles as mothers, girlfriends, wives- less so as sisters.”

      And the search for identity (for BOTH men & women) is just as much about not becoming invisible after marriage & having babies.

      In terms of having it all, as a woman, post marriage/live in partner/boyfriend etc this can become difficult if you are more successful & earn more than your man. Even where ‘metrosexual’ man is concerned.

      I believe the identity issue is just as much, if not more, a male issue in that women have encompassed a more broader identity (dual identity as carer & bringing home the bacon) than in the past.

      The question is have a critical mass of men been able to accommodate this shift? Do they not now have an identity crisis? Have women made their identity irrelevant?

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