Mumbai attack news stories


by Sunny
5th December, 2008 at 10:25 am    

A few days ago a large gathering of people in Canary Wharf held a candle-light vigil for the victims of the Mumbai attacks.
london vigil

Today, many of the papers are running with the story of Lashkar-e-Taiba opening its doors so it could try and pretend it had nothing to do with Mumbai.

School accused of Mumbai terror role opens its doors
• Campus said to be base for banned extremist group
• Media visitors shown classrooms and hospital

Behind the fence at ‘terror’ training camp
The Pakistani terrorist group blamed for the attack on Mumbai opened its gates to outsiders in order to protest its innocence.

Elsewhere
• More Mumbai links to Pakistan and signs of abuse
• Mumbai gunman tells of ‘martyrdom’ deal
• India has proof of ISI role in Mumbai attacks: Sources
• Mumbai masterminds to be on FBI list
• No intention to declare war on Pakistan
• Bangladesh LeT ex-chief helped Mumbai attackers


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Filed in: South Asia,Technology






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  1. Parvinder — on 5th December, 2008 at 12:06 pm  

    It is sad that it took the lives of so many innocents for the Indian government to listen to ordinary folk who feel venerable to these sorts of attacks. As I have said before, this attack should be taken as an act of war by groups active in Pakistan and not mixed up with issues like Kashmir, the economic disparity between different religious groups or past injustices in India, however important these issue are. In the same way, the attackers on Sept 11 were not seen as freedom fighters, but plain murderers without a cause.

    I don’t want to make comparisons with 9/11 as the two are worlds apart but we can say one thing, a qualitative shift has taken place in the last 7 days as it did in the US. The feeling in India is things must now change, both regarding security of ordinary people and the ending of this proxy war from over the border.

    Let’s hope the Pakistan establishment nibs this in the bud once and for all rather than keep on brushing the obvious under the carpet, so that we can carry on the important work of peace between the two nations.

  2. Jai — on 5th December, 2008 at 2:43 pm  

    Nice, poignant photo, Sunny.

    *******************

    I don’t want to make comparisons with 9/11 as the two are worlds apart

    It nearly did literally turn into another 9/11 — even worse, in fact — since the terrorists somehow screwed up in their original plan to actually blow up both hotels and murder 5000 people.

    ********************

    Other parallels include AQ’s leadership residing in Afghanistan at the time and the US demanding that OBL etc be handed over, and LeT’s leadership currently residing in Pakistan and both India and the US presenting Pakistan with the list of individuals they want surrendered to them.

    I hope that the Pakistani government and military are more cooperative than the Taliban were, if it’s categorically proven that the LeT (and possibly elements in the ISI) were indeed behind the atrocity in Mumbai.

  3. platinum786 — on 5th December, 2008 at 3:12 pm  

    I wouldn’t get too worked up, fundamental shifts etc. This is just another attack, it will amount to nothing. The only reason LeT is being blamed is because you are having elections.

  4. Jai — on 5th December, 2008 at 4:54 pm  

    Hmmm…..

  5. Sid — on 5th December, 2008 at 5:26 pm  

    Peshawar was hit by a terrorist bomb attack yesterday. platinum786 will claim this one was by the US or the Indian right wing too, no doubt.

  6. Don — on 5th December, 2008 at 5:48 pm  

    …you are having elections.

    Are we? News to me.

  7. Jai — on 5th December, 2008 at 6:06 pm  

    Me too, Don.

    In fact, Platinum786 lives in Ol’ Blighty just like Sunny (to whom his point was addressed) and most of the rest of us here, so shouldn’t the correct phrase have been “….WE are having elections” ?

    And what do these imaginary British elections have to do with the LeT anyway ?

  8. Indrak — on 5th December, 2008 at 6:44 pm  

    Would ‘stratfor’ lose its value if it was widely read?

    And what about blacks? My cousin work[ed] at the Oberoi and implicates 3 blacks. My brother discounts this on the basis there’s no medial corroboration [there is].

    re #2, bin Laden etc have not anywhere or anyime been proved guilty of 911. For the antichrist he was portrayed as, the comensurate priority to apprehend him came to nothing – despite him being offered up by the Afhgan regime.
    In terms of evidence for the act itself, there was the paper id of an alleged pilot in the smouldering remains of a skyscraper.

    If anything happens in India with Pakistan not being blamed, that would constitute news. One should not await with baited breath tho’, and it’s unlikely for the Indian state to have no part in it.

    It’s not hard to disdain the liberalist sentiment against Platinum on the recent thread, but it is a welcome change fro the rich and their obscene lacunae to be targeted,
    and so:
    “Hotel Taj: Icon Of Whose India ?” By Gnani Sankaran
    04 December, 2008
    url = http://www.countercurrents.org/sankaran041208.htm
    ‘aam aadmi’ means ‘common man/person’

  9. Don — on 5th December, 2008 at 7:10 pm  

    …there was the paper id of an alleged pilot in the smouldering remains of a skyscraper.

    Well, if that ain’t conclusive evidence, I don’t know what is.

    …a welcome change… Glad you enjoyed it.

    Oh, and lacunae is actually a word, y’know, with a meaning and all that.

    …liberalist sentiment… You mean contempt for racists? Disdain away, pal.

    As you previously suggested, … a hypothetical new reader to PP; upon reading a comment, they look up said person on this thread, and there’s a good chance they’ll be bear in mind “what a twat”.

  10. Indrak — on 5th December, 2008 at 7:42 pm  

    #9: yes, I’m not minded to repeat things for the sakes of those who fail to read properly: a phenomenon that often obtains here.

    -it’s your choice to equate it to contempt for racists, it must suit you; it’s a separate issue that he is a proponent, let alone panderer to nationalist militarism

    And so just for the likes of you might the link I posted be worthwhile, should you need appraising of the unfailing reality some hundreds of millions: that’s before you attempt to de- and re-flect criticism towards what you hold sacrosanct.

    And why single out a word non-trivially unless to imply it’s used incorrectly? It’s not, so I’ll remain more polite than you.

  11. Don — on 5th December, 2008 at 7:54 pm  

    Your frequent difficulty in communicating may not always be due to a lack of reading skills in others.

    it’s your choice to equate it to contempt for racists, No, he’s an outed and vicious racist. That’s what he was called on.

    Who are the likes of me, and what do I hold sacrosanct?

  12. Imran Khan — on 5th December, 2008 at 8:05 pm  

    First of all the USA refused to present evidence to show Bin Laden’s Guilt which would have put the Taliban on the spot, there was no possible reason to refuse to show evidence at the time. He did later admit guilt but when taking the world with you it is import to debunk myths and by not showing some evidence the USA failed to carry world sympathy. India needs to avoid this mistake so justice is brought to those who died.

    Now India needs to present evidence before demanding lists of individuals be handed over. If the evidence exists why can’t it be presented to show that something was being planned. That would then put to rest all the counter theories etc.

    India should not behave like the USA but should show that it is basing things on facts and is crystal clear in its accusations. It then has nothing to lose by making such demands as the handing over of terrorists.

    At the moment there is talk of evidence by the USA and India but little has been put forth in the public domain. Hence people then say that India will just blame Pakistan. So let them show the evidence and put that accusation to bed.

    People here are jumping to conclusions before any of us have seen any evidence. Media reports don’t constitute evidence.

    Why can’t the phone recordings be made public? They won’t hinder any security work.

  13. Jai — on 5th December, 2008 at 8:12 pm  

    re #2, bin Laden etc have not anywhere or anyime been proved guilty of 911.

    Which would make OBL even more of a spoilt, self-destructive, attention-seeking idiot than he already is, considering that he claimed in multiple video statements released in subsequent years that he was personally responsible for directing the 19 hijackers.

    Ditto for all those other Islamist extremists and armchair jihadists worldwide (including here in the UK) who draw inspiration from him and regard him as such a hero, along with viewing the hijackers as martyrs. What a bunch of gullible fools, eh.

    despite him being offered up by the Afhgan regime.

    More fool them for offering to hand over an innocent man then, I guess. Except that they didn’t, despite requests by the US to do so.

    it’s your choice to equate it to contempt for racists, it must suit you; it’s a separate issue that he is a proponent, let alone panderer to nationalist militarism

    Both issues are intertwined in this case, since your friend’s jingoistic nationalist militarism is closely connected with his viciously racist attitude towards Indians, Hindus and Jewish people.

    Incidentally, for the record some of us have no problem with militarism per se whatsoever. Believe me.

  14. Don — on 5th December, 2008 at 8:44 pm  

    And why single out a word non-trivially unless to imply it’s used incorrectly? It’s not, so I’ll remain more polite than you.

    Polite? You describe the atrocities at the Taj Mahal Hotel as ‘a welcome change’ and you think you are entitled to politeness? Fuck that.

    Now explain your understanding of lacunae, in context.

  15. kELvi — on 5th December, 2008 at 8:45 pm  

    I did read Gnani Sankaran – the guy is no Gnani (or learned one) he is prime example of a doofus. The Taj Hotel is in iconic in ways VT isn’t. Let’s see, The Taj was built by JN Tata in a fit of cold pique after he was denied admittance at the Esplanade Hotel because he wasn’t white enough for it. JN Tata and his descendants went on to establish a business group that lead the industrialisation as well as the scientific and cultural development of India (TIFR, NCPA, Tata Steel, and several other entities). Tata Steel pioneered the 8-working day, sick leave, worker safety, collective bargaining in the 1920s when the Carnegies and Mellons were employing scabs and strike breakers to thrash up steelers in the US. The Taj, Oberoi, for many years provided the only clean public toilets in the vicinity and as one who has used them on numberless occasions can’t thank the respective groups enough. The Gateway of India area is a focal point for Bombay and is home to high and low, rich and poor, and everyone. The Taj employs 100s and 100s and helps transfer wealth from the rich to the poor through employment. What’s wrong with that? Now VT was designed by that Rudyard Kipling’s father/. Ain’t that bad? Cafe Leopold is a glitzy place but provides plain beer and a snack now and then. Nothing fancy about it. Now the terrorists wouldn’t have know but if they did would they have been to Kaal Bhairav Hotel near Sassoon Docks? Sankaran being from the loony left is shaken by the common folk’s adulation of the cops, soldiers, firemen, and medics and their wrath for politicians. He must be particularly shaken by the cheerful sendoff that the NSG received and the way the crowd welcomed them as heroes. Contrary to the the hated uniformed forces being oppressive tools of the state, they turned out to be friends of the people, who sipped their chai, fed the pigeons and went on their way. Left loons don’t like this for adulation is reserved only for their own cowardly “revolutionaries” and the people must not be allowed to turn patriotic! When even a milquetoast Stockholm Syndrome liberal like Rahul Bose praises the NSG, it is curtains for the left loons.

  16. Indrak — on 5th December, 2008 at 10:14 pm  

    #11: quite, as in not always. But the difficulty is likely less from a lack of skills as the ingrained tendency to fail to apply them.

    If we’re referring to the same thread, started by Rumbold 26. nov, I see little to fault #40, 90. Rather than anything therein be addressed, the focus was distended to extraneous and separate matters so I may concede somewhat to you, upto the point it would be worth attending, given the quality of those comments.

    The likes of you are those who take exception as you did; trivially, liberals, for group-thinkly declaiming what’s termed bad whilst hypocritically and contradictorally accommodated to the systemic basis of what is far worse in magnitude.

    btw, 2. time: why did the term “shit eating niggers” stand in that thread if platinum’s to be damned for being racist elsewhere?

    #13: Your militarism renders you more his friend than I am.

    #14: 2. point: it was best to leave it; you’re verging on patheticality. No.

    1st point: consider being crucified, alternating from bearing weight between the legs and wrists until the pain in the chest excruciates. There is doubtless a cycle of welcome changes. I’m not to hide behind anything I write, but if you choose to take issue you’d be better off acknowledging what any non-moron would – that if someone is taking the trouble to make sense, whether by habit or effort and irrespective of how pretty it may not be, it is worth attending to with intelligence.

  17. Indrak — on 5th December, 2008 at 10:48 pm  

    #15: yes, you’re quite too far to engage with;
    in #10 I chose not to delineate the likes of what you comprise membership of.

    You have reminded me though of an executive at Tata Steel in Calcutta ’91 when few but the likes of him had cause to travel abroad, who regaled how big the niggers in New York were.

    And y’re no doubt aware how entering the army since then is no longer the best option fro a career. Lauded for its democracy, I saw no reason fro the military to take power in India since it already had the best of everything.
    No more alas. Now even the officers in the Defence Colonies between the foreign embassies and the Delhi Taj are of such declined quality that they allow their servants’ children to be unruly
    [one of the perks there is that servants' quarters append the flats, which makes it much more convenient. There are reliable ones worth keeping who may have left their families in another state and get to see them a bit more often than the millions of chinese who've been producing goods for western debt, but that's another story.],
    though apparently television has made the lower orders much more troublesome from being aware of their rights, so it’s not entirely the fault of worsening officer intake.

  18. persephone — on 5th December, 2008 at 11:19 pm  

    there seems to be a lack of lucidity in the last couple of comments from indrak?

  19. Don — on 5th December, 2008 at 11:27 pm  

    Indrak,

    You are aware that you are now totally incoherent?

  20. Indrak — on 5th December, 2008 at 11:33 pm  

    #18;19: .

  21. Don — on 6th December, 2008 at 12:00 am  

    I’ll take that as a ‘yes’.

  22. Indrak — on 6th December, 2008 at 12:36 am  

    You’ve gone beyond verging and have transgressed its farther boundary,
    demonstrably insincere.
    It’s emblematic of your sort to take it how you want.
    You had a chance but choose to be cheap. Well done.
    Full circle back to disdain.

  23. Kulvinder — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:53 am  

    Indrak out of curiosity are you using babelfish or some other translater?

  24. Ashik — on 6th December, 2008 at 9:44 am  

    I don’t believe the accusations of Bangladeshi involvement in this incident at all. Suicide bombing is just not culturally a Bangladeshi thing. Bangladesh only experienced it’s first such bombing in 2005 targeting the secular legal profession. Given the lack of a tradition in Bangladesh, I can’t see Bengalis ‘exporting’ it to India.

  25. Venkat — on 6th December, 2008 at 10:19 am  

    Pakistan is not well structured country.Hooligans with anti-Hindu and anti-christian feelings are nursing their wounds over their defeat in 1971 and loss of Bangladesh.
    If Bangladesh continues like this that country will become very poor country in days to come.

    It is time the people of Pakistan assert and dislodge their army and ISI controls effectively.

    ord. people of Pakistan should kill these terrorists in their country.Even Muslim priests have been brain washed.If Islam is to remain in the world it should behave culturally accepting its defeat by other religions.

  26. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 11:07 am  

    Ashik #24
    I don’t believe the accusations of Bangladeshi involvement in this incident at all. Suicide bombing is just not culturally a Bangladeshi thing.

    Your beliefs are rarely reality based. Are you oblivious that the British high commissioner was targted in a bomb attack in Sylhet some four years ago?

    In fact the LeT links with Mumbai have been directly linked with a terrorist cells in Dhaka, Sylhet and Chittagong.

    None of these attacks have been suicide bombing. I guess Southasian terrorists like to walk away alive from their murdering sprees. These attacks have not been suicide attacks but fedayeen style with grenades, guns and munitions.

  27. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 11:30 am  

    Sid – Do you have evidence or are you simply going by media reports? No evidence has been cited yet and your wading in as Judge, Jury and Executioner.

    All the media reports that are cited say unnamed sources, unnamed sources.

    If Muslims are thought to be involved you convict them without any proof!

    In fact according to some other reports it could be entirely from the local population. In addition another sign would be the public announcement and mourining which would take place but so far I haven’t seen any of that.

    Most of this is based on a confession from the sole surviving terrorist – have you considered that he may have been forced to say those things.

    As I said it is easy enough to deliver the telephone conversations without in any way undermining security operations and thye won’t do this. Why not?

    Please present what evidence you have that has convinced you and not some hear say. So please let the rest of the blog see your evidence that this is the work of the people you say it is and we can then move towards bringing them to justice.

    Evidence please.

  28. Indrak — on 6th December, 2008 at 12:34 pm  

    #23 + its ilk:
    Why the interest? Y’re not alone certainly, tho’ I’ve yet to see any one remarking on the numerous grammatical violations here.
    Does it feel nice to lob a comment in a line or two loaded with insinuation whilst hiding behind plausible sincerity?
    Or is it sheep-like, easier to spew once emboldened by witnessing other similar cretinous platitudes?
    It certainly allows for the points to go unaddressed.

  29. Ashik — on 6th December, 2008 at 12:52 pm  

    Sid, did you even bother to read my post at 24?

    I am clearly talking about suicide bombings.

    Suicide bombing is quite different from other acts of bombing like the one against the High Commissioner. There needs to be an infastructure and culture of martyrdom which is lacking in your average Bengali since in our culture blowing oneself up = athohotha (suicide) which is strictly forbidden in Islam and imperils ones soul in the afterlife. Pakistanis are more likely to believe in a dodgy scholar telling them they’ll go to 72 virgins in Heaven.

    As I stated earlier the first suicide bombing in Bangladesh only occured in 2005. It is extremely rare for Bangladeshis compared to Pakistanis and Arabs to use this method of attack. Bengali Islamist outfits are going to try out suicide bombings within BD to further their cause before helping someone else do it over the border. Besides, Bangladeshi Islamists are very junior partners to Arabs an d Pakistanis in Jehadi warfare because in comparison Bangladeshi groups are far less supported, organised and ideologically committed. No matter how much they talk about the universal Ummah, Islamist groups are governed by local conditions. That is the reality.

  30. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 1:03 pm  

    If Muslims are thought to be involved you convict them without any proof!

    And I would say this about you: If Muslim terrorists are thought to be involved you excuse their murder of innocent Muslims!

    Let’s go beyond the Mumbai attacks. There was a 2 year terrorist campaign aimed at civilian targets in Bangladesh that ended in 2006 with the arrest and apprehension of the terrorist cell. Some 30 hard-nosed takfiri cocksuckers. The entire gang was hanged under capital punishment.

    They happened all to be Muslims. They felt no remorse that their targets were innocent Muslims because they had already made the decision to kill innoncent Muslims which they justified by their observation of religious law. For them their victims were simply kufaar.

    People like you, and you are a majority amongst mainstream Muslims, would rather apologise for the terrorists and make stupid demands for evidence and use all sorts of ploys to destabilise the capture these scumbags.

    You deny their victims any recourse to justice and muddy the waters by claiming that the implication of terrorists is an attack on “all Muslims”.

    What does this mean in real terms Imran? Are you aware that you are reinforcing the killing of ordinary Muslims by terrorists?

    Why is it that wanting the capture and destruction of terrorists is an attack on Muslims for you? Do you self-identify as a terrorist? Are the innocent victims of these nihilist takfiris not Muslims?

    An explanation is in order.

  31. kELvi — on 6th December, 2008 at 1:07 pm  

    There’s evidence by the truckload if only anyone cares.

  32. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 1:25 pm  

    Ashik

    Your comment in #24 was
    I don’t believe the accusations of Bangladeshi involvement in this incident at all. Suicide bombing is just not culturally a Bangladeshi thing.

    You claimed that since Mumbai was not a suicide bomb attack and Southasians muslims don’t do suicide bombing, Bangladesh cannot be involved.

    Both these assertions are false postives. There seem to be LeT cells in Bangladesh who *are* involved and they are involved with both suicide and non-suicide terrorist attacks.

    Besides, Bangladeshi Islamists are very junior partners to Arabs an d Pakistanis in Jehadi warfare because in comparison Bangladeshi groups are far less supported, organised and ideologically committed. No matter how much they talk about the universal Ummah, Islamist groups are governed by local conditions. That is the reality.

    You can be sure that extremist Bangladeshi Islamists are very much equal partners in Southasian terrorist federalism.

  33. Ashik — on 6th December, 2008 at 1:43 pm  

    I didn’t say anything about South Asian Muswlims but specifically Bangladeshi ones and their aversion to suicide.

    Sid:

    ‘There seem to be LeT cells in Bangladesh who *are* involved and they are involved with both suicide and non-suicide terrorist attacks’.

    Bangladesh, India and Pak always blame each other when these incidents take place rather than looking at their own houses.

    Any credible (ie. not from India and preferably from UK/US/European sources) evidence of LeT activity let alone involvement in suicide bombing in Bangladesh? I’m sure you would agree ‘Seems to be’ is simply not good enough as the consequences of Bangladesh harbouring such groups are likely to be dire.

    Your posts tend to paint Islamism as a Bangladeshi bogeyman of similar proportions to Pakistan. This is simply not true. Is it not true that there are more incidents of Bangaboumi (Maoist/Communist) terror and violent incidents than Islamist inspired ones in Bangladesh? And as you yourself state prompt govt action crushed Bangla Bhai and his hoodlums. Islamism doesn’t enjoy much support in Bangladesh, hence Jamaat have never won elections. They depend on the secular corruption of AL/BNP to get anywhere in government.

  34. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 2:15 pm  

    Ashik

    You continue to discount terrorist activity in Bangladesh based on the false premise that it isn’t suicide terrorism in nature.

    Bangladesh, India and Pak always blame each other when these incidents take place rather than looking at their own houses.

    Yes, but the weight of stupidity of the blame game seems to be on the Pakistan-side at the moment, as represented by platinum786 and Imran Khan, that the Mumbai attacks were perpetrated by Mossad, USA or right-wing Indian forces as a tactical pre-election ploy.

    Your posts tend to paint Islamism as a Bangladeshi bogeyman of similar proportions to Pakistan. This is simply not true. Is it not true that there are more incidents of Bangaboumi (Maoist/Communist) terror and violent incidents than Islamist inspired ones in Bangladesh? And as you yourself state prompt govt action crushed Bangla Bhai and his hoodlums. Islamism doesn’t enjoy much support in Bangladesh, hence Jamaat have never won elections. They depend on the secular corruption of AL/BNP to get anywhere in government.

    As opposed to your ridiculous claims that there is no such thing as Bangladeshi terrorism since Bangladeshis don’t do suicide bombing!

    I see that you are using the fact that Bangladeshis prefer to vote for secular parties like the BNP and AL whilst at the same time blaming them, as you usually do, for the rise of Islamism in Bangladesh! Which one is it going to be Ashik? Either blame the Jamaatis for being fellow travellers of Islamist extremism or put your money where your mouth is and support the secular parties, if you’ve got an iota of principle.

    But you’d rather not support democracy and secular politics and would rather deny the existence of Islamist extremism in Bangladesh outright. Whilst at the same time hide behind the fact that Bangladesh does not elect the clerical fascists of Jamaat to power, which is a fact in spite of your tacit support of them.

  35. Ashik — on 6th December, 2008 at 2:36 pm  

    Sid,

    At first you tried to conflate my statement about suicide bombing (‘Suicide bombing is just not culturally a Bangladeshi thing’) with general bombings (a lot of which in BD eminates from secular groups as well as Islamist ones). Imran Khan is right, you can’t admit to your own mistakes.

    Now you are arguing that AL and BNP are not to blame for the rise of Jammat and Islamism when it is undisputed that BNP invited Jamaat into a four-party governing alliance at the last election and the time before that your oh-so secular AL co-operated with Jamaat in parliament to get a majority over BNP. Jamaat can only come to power through the patronage of the two established parties. At the last election Jamaat won 20 seats only because the BNP ordered their votebanks in certain constituency’s to vote for Jamaat allies. The same with AL and the Communists (National Action Party).

    Islamism is not an organic and native ideology to Bangladesh. It’s originators were foreign ie. Moududi and it can only project influence outside it’s limited base of support because of the infighting between AL/BNP which is reflected in every strata of Bangladeshi society through the hired thugs and activists of these two party’s. At a basic level nobody cares about ideology in Bangladesh, only the fruits of political power.

    I’m not even a Bangladeshi citizen. So my supporting any party from back there either tacitly or otherwise would be stupid. I just don’t like to see non-Asian people looking at Bangladeshis/Sylhetis the same way as Pakistanis when it comes to Islamism. We are not the same due to a myriad of social, political, cultural and historical factors.

  36. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 2:41 pm  

    Sid – “And I would say this about you: If Muslim terrorists are thought to be involved you excuse their murder of innocent Muslims!”

    Again you resort to your usual tatics of smears. All I asked was for the evidence.

    I don’t excuse it for a minute. If you ever bothered to read what was said then you’d see that I said lay the evidence on the table then that makes it difficult for people to deny or hide behind.

    Isn’t it legal protocol to outline the charges and make the evidence available. But as usual you are not interested in trying to defeat the problem you just want to bang on and on about your point.

    Put the evidence out so that people including Muslims are then seeing what these people are really like and how evil they are. Is that too much to ask for?

    Your plain and utter hatred and contempt for Muslims and in fact any one who disagrees with you doesn’t detract from the fact that a problem exists and to show people that the charges are proven requires that these people are exposed as liars.

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people. Your approach isn’t working and your still taking people down the blind alley you always have been.

    To win the minds of the people in that region you need to prove the charges. America had a chance after 9/11 and was too arrogant to do it and thus arose all sorts of conspiracy theories. You are asking for more of the same.

    I am not – what I am saying is that to win the minds of people the evidence as far as possible need to be laid out.

    All I asked you for was what evidence you have and not your abusive responses. If you have it then fine put it out here if not then lets try and work together for the betterment of everyone and see if we can find it and lay it out here.

    You don’t always have to be like Ed Hussein and talk down at Muslims – sometimes we are trying to tell you how to bring people with you. Listen occassionally.

    All I am saying is make it the evidence clear so there is no doubting the evil of this crime.

  37. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 2:44 pm  

    “There’s evidence by the truckload if only anyone cares.”

    Put it out here so people can read it please.

  38. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:00 pm  

    Ashik

    Your statement again:
    I don’t believe the accusations of Bangladeshi involvement in this incident at all. Suicide bombing is just not culturally a Bangladeshi thing.

    Looks like the conjoining of two opinions to make one spurious assertion. Your conflation, not mine.

    Islamism is not an organic and native ideology to Bangladesh. It’s originators were foreign ie. Moududi and it can only project influence outside it’s limited base of support because of the infighting between AL/BNP which is reflected in every strata of Bangladeshi society through the hired thugs and activists of these two party’s. At a basic level nobody cares about ideology in Bangladesh, only the fruits of political power.

    There is no doubt that Islamism is undergoing a political rehabilitation in South Asia thanks to the vote banks and influence commanded by the clerical fascists of Jamaat-e-Islami.

    And you’re right, other secualr parties are now falling over themselves to make overtures to the Jamaat for coalitions and other power sharing less formal constructs – such as getting a slice of the Saudi funding – that great El Dorado of South Asian Islamic culture.

    If you understand that Islamism is a dangerous stalking horse that has entered Southasian polity in the motherland, you must surely also recognise its growing influence here in England?

    Since you are now pretending voicing action against Islamism, are you willing to take it on here?

    Are you willing to put your money where your mouth currently is on this thread and criticise New Labours current bed-hopping with the Islamists in the Islamic Forum Europe. Since the same that has happened in Bangladesh with Islamist “democratic” parties is happehing in the Bangladeshi community in the UK. So my question to you is, if you are so against secular parties partnering with Islamists in Bangladesh, can we count on you to be equally critical of it here in bilaat?

  39. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:03 pm  

    You don’t always have to be like Ed Hussein and talk down at Muslims – sometimes we are trying to tell you how to bring people with you. Listen occassionally.

    I don’t talk down Muslims. You do. You like to think that the criticism of the murderous actions of terrorists is a criticism of Muslims. Then you cry into your pillow at night about Islamophobia. Bt if you were to analyse your intentions, its people like you who reinforce Islamophobia by conflating extremists and terrorists with ordinary Muslims.

    You’re the one who has been using smears in both your alter egos, Imran Khan and Avi Cohen.

  40. Ashik — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:04 pm  

    Sid @32:

    ‘There seem to be LeT cells in Bangladesh who *are* involved and they are involved with both suicide and non-suicide terrorist attacks’.

    I repeat my post @ 33:

    Any credible (ie. not from India and preferably from UK/US/European sources) evidence of LeT activity let alone involvement in suicide bombing in Bangladesh? I’m sure you would agree ‘Seems to be’ is simply not good enough as the consequences of Bangladesh harbouring such groups are likely to be dire.

    It seems to me that you Sid are a counterpart to Pakistani elements who place the blame for Mumbai on Mossad and the US (although there was a realistic possibility of Hinduvta involvement initially). That’s not a great place to be.

    Regarding Platinum, anyone residing in the UK and/or going on BD or Indo-Pak military forums holds little credibility in my eyes. Too many uber nationalist hinduvta/Islamist freckled teenagers drooling over pics of military equipment no South Asian country can afford. And one reason these forummers tend to be living in the West. lol

  41. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:09 pm  

    Sid – It is worth at this considering the following very wise words:

    “Victory is changing the hearts of your opponents by gentleness and kindness.”
    Saladin

    Hence I am saying put forward the evidence and then you can start to win the hearts and minds of people. With your approach you aren’t doing that and that isn’t something you want to hear.

    Anyone who disagrees with you is met with a colley of smears and abuse and labels of Islamist.

    Most Muslims don’t support suicide bombing or terrorism but they do have a sympathy for the freedom of people in various parts of the world. Thus to differentiate between a legitimate grievance as recognised even in the West and cold blooded murder means that the very basic rules that apply to everyone here need to be applied to win the hearts and minds of all people.

    It isn’t rocket science and is basic legal protocol.

    So please for the common good stop your awful behaviour and work with people rather than against them. It is a simple enough plea to work together to defuse a situation. Many of the Muslims here extend their hand of friendship to and often are slapped back.

    So kindly present the evidence you have and then people can move forward with a very important discussion of how to combat this.

    Regards

  42. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:09 pm  

    Ashik

    When the evidence starts percolating down, that there are LeT training camps in Sylhet and Chittagong, how much are you willing to wager that you won’t be screaming that its all an anti-Sylhety conspiracy?

  43. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:14 pm  

    Sid – “I don’t talk down Muslims. You do. You like to think that the criticism of the murderous actions of terrorists is a criticism of Muslims. Then you cry into your pillow at night about Islamophobia. Bt if you were to analyse your intentions, its people like you who reinforce Islamophobia by conflating extremists and terrorists with ordinary Muslims.

    You’re the one who has been using smears in both your alter egos, Imran Khan and Avi Cohen.”

    You really can’t stop can you. Criticism of the actions of murders is legitimate but you go beyond that and many people are saying that but you won’t admit your own faults which is your own failing.

  44. Sid — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:15 pm  

    You really can’t stop can you. Criticism of the actions of murders is legitimate but you go beyond taht and many people are saying that but you won’t admit your own faults which is your own failing.

    Without any concrete examples, that could be called a smear, old chap.

  45. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:20 pm  

    Sid – I suggest you read what is being said. I don’t need to say more.

    All I asked was the you present what evidence you have please.

    Again I extend the offer that you present the evidence you have that the murderous acts in Mumbai were the work of the organisation you say it. Then we can both say together they need to be brought to justice.

    So please present your evidence or point us to it.

  46. Imran Khan — on 6th December, 2008 at 3:45 pm  

    Sid “Ashik

    When the evidence starts percolating down, that there are LeT training camps in Sylhet and Chittagong, how much are you willing to wager that you won’t be screaming that its all an anti-Sylhety conspiracy?”

    When the evidence starts?

    But you’ve made absolute statements to say there are such training camps. So what is your evidence for those statements?

    That is what people are saying is present your evidence from sources we can also see.

    Again in the news reports listed above it states that unnamed sources from America. But don’t forget unnamed sources from America said Iraq was manufacturing nuclear weapons and was an imminant threat. Hence you see why people are skeptical of American sources which people are quoting based on their past record.

  47. Kulvinder — on 6th December, 2008 at 6:17 pm  

    First of all the USA refused to present evidence to show Bin Laden’s Guilt which would have put the Taliban on the spot, there was no possible reason to refuse to show evidence at the time.

    No they didn’t.

  48. douglas clark — on 6th December, 2008 at 8:51 pm  

    If I recall correctly, and I think I do, the Afghan regieme of the time were willing to give OBL up to another Muslim State – y’know for trial – but not to the USA.

    This was rejected.

    It is worth remembering these details.

    Once you have tweaked the tail of the ‘Land of the Brave, and the Home of the Free’ it is ridiculous to assume normal channels of diplomacy apply. For they expect their ‘Homeland’ to be free of all that sort of stuff, and will protect themselves, all the way to the nuclear, if that is what it takes.

    That is what anyone who takes on the USA is up against.

    We’ve had eight years of this shit. Hopefully Barack Obama is a tad better than that.

  49. Ravi Naik — on 6th December, 2008 at 11:17 pm  

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    Are you freaking *serious*? Do you consider that people in Pakistan and Bangladesh are so barbaric that they think that the indiscriminate murder of citizens is somewhat justified or can be justified, and thus, we need to win their minds? You should be ashamed for smearing the people of those two countries.

  50. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 5:15 pm  

    Kulvinder – “No they didn’t.”

    Yes they did. Where did they present there evidence at the time?

  51. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 5:19 pm  

    Ravi – “Are you freaking *serious*? Do you consider that people in Pakistan and Bangladesh are so barbaric that they think that the indiscriminate murder of citizens is somewhat justified or can be justified, and thus, we need to win their minds? You should be ashamed for smearing the people of those two countries.”

    Are you freaking serious? With many conspiracy theories already making the rounds of course you need show evidence to win the hearts and minds of people.

    If you knew anything about India and Pakistan relations you’d freaking know that they blame each other quite often for indiscriminate killings on each others soil. So yes you do need to freaking keep up the pressure to keep hearts and minds on side.

    It doesn’t take a genius to work out what the USA did wrong. In case it had gotten by your attention then the organisation accused of this is trying to win over people so what makes you think that India doesn’t have to do the same?

  52. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 5:41 pm  

    Are you freaking serious? With many conspiracy theories already making the rounds of course you need show evidence to win the hearts and minds of people.

    Do *you* have any evidence to back this up?

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    So you’re suggesting that the majority of Bangladeshis are fully supportive of jihadist attacks, bombs detonations in public spaces and the killing of indiscriminate people?

    If “Anyone with a single brain cell can see” that the Bangladeshi’s hearts and minds are behind takfiri jihadism, then you must have some evidence to back it up. So go on, post it.

  53. Jai — on 8th December, 2008 at 6:01 pm  

    Reading the 9/11 Commission Report would probably be a good starting point for individuals interested in the specific sequence of events.

    Also, as mentioned previously, OBL HAS ADMITTED TO RESPONSIBILITY FOR 9/11 IN MULTIPLE STATEMENTS HE HAS SUBSEQUENTLY RELEASED.

    Incidentally, AQ number 3 Khalid Sheikh Mohammad has just pleaded guilty to being involved in 9/11 too.

    *****************************

    Some of the remarks on this thread about “lack of evidence” remind me of that ex-ISI head General Gul’s similarly outlandish (not to mention paranoid and weaselly) claims on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS show on CNN during the weekend. As a clearly shocked Mr Zakaria said himself shortly afterwards, there is a mountain of evidence proving OBL and AQ’s involvement in 9/11. I’m surprised at the level of ignorance and possible disingenuity being displayed by some commenters here, considering that a huge amount of information is already freely available in the public domain.

  54. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 6:31 pm  

    Sid – “Do *you* have any evidence to back this up?”

    Yes I do.

    Do ***you*** have evidence for your claims which still haven’t seen the light of day yet for many many discussions?

    Anyway here are some:

    http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional/Karachi/30-Nov-2008/IR-expert-sees-Mumbai-attacks-big-conspiracy

    http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-155487

    Some more from conspiracy blogs here:

    http://www.nowpublic.com/world/mumbai-attacks-likely-gangland-cia-isi-turf-war

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081206174331AAbLTvM

    http://luqmaninbmore.blogspot.com/2008/11/pictures-from-mumbai-attack.html

    Now you see why I and others are saying that there is a need to stop people diverting the issue by spreadign conspiracy theories and hence the need to produce some evidence at this point to nip this diversion in the bud.

    Now your evidence please as we’ve waited for Judge Sidney Dred to produce his evidence for way too long now. So please produce your sources.

  55. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 6:50 pm  

    Sid – “So you’re suggesting that the majority of Bangladeshis are fully supportive of jihadist attacks, bombs detonations in public spaces and the killing of indiscriminate people?”

    Once again your usual tactic of diversion and misrepresenting what people say.

    Anyone who disagrees with you is labelled as an Islamist or Islamist Sympathiser by you which is a disgusting way of debating.

    What I said was that to continue to win the hearts and minds of people in Pakistan and Bangladesh it was important to convince people that this isn’t a fight for freedom.

    Now if you for a brief moment remove you hatred for me and others that refute your nasty tactics and read this;

    http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/03/top13.htm

    Now many people in Pakistan read the Dawn and will be convinced the evidence isn’t there and their country is being labeled. So to win their hearts and minds this type of things needs to be turned around and some evidence provided so that the conspiracy theories don’t take hold.

    Now once again can I see your evidence that these attacks were carried out by Pakistan so I can show people I know. I’ve requested enough times and you either need to produce or we carry on looking. But please can you clarify one way or the other do you have evidence?

  56. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 6:56 pm  

    Jai – “I’m surprised at the level of ignorance and possible disingenuity being displayed by some commenters here, considering that a huge amount of information is already freely available in the public domain.”

    Look what people are saying is that lay the evidence out as far as possible and not quote unnamed sources in the USA etc.

    Those same unnamed sources told people there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

    It is a serious issue that people need to carry the argument and move forward from this nasty act. As I said there are enough conspiracy theories emerging including accusations the CIA did it, Mossad did it, the Hindu Right did it.

    Enough is enough. This needs to be stopped now. So the Indian Government needs to learn from the mistakes of the past by Bush and co. and release a level of public incrimination so these murderous people can be shown for what they are.

    It is horrible to say but I would say right now that those thought to be responsible are being more PR Savy that the Indian Government by opening up to journalists. Them winning doesn’t help any of us and I include myself despite Sid’s nasty smears.

    So for those of us that want this to stop we need help and that can only come from some level of intelligence showing from India or the USA which we can then all use to show poeple who claim the evidence isn’t there that it is. It isn’t difficult to grasp that because of the history both sides find it hard to believe each other.

    I had someone at work say to me today it was a Hindu plot and I asked for the evidence which wasn’t forthcoming. So to push this type of approach back needs help and that can only come from the disclosure of some Indian wiretap evidence or even American. But lets see it.

  57. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:02 pm  

    Imran Khan,

    You said:

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    Then you supplied links in #54 to back this statement up in response to my request. I have gone through the links but there is nothing in any of them which backs up your statement.

    Just a lot of conspiracy theories on the Mumbai attack. But nothing to say that Bangladeshi people’s hearts and minds are behind indiscriminate jihadi killing of innocents, as you have claimed.

  58. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:15 pm  

    Sid – “Just a lot of conspiracy theories on the Mumbai attack. But nothing to say that Bangladeshi people’s hearts and minds are behind indiscriminate jihadi killing of innocents, as you have claimed.”

    Try reading what I said and again don’t put your own disgusting spin on things which detracts from the serious debate at hand. I said that to win the hearts and minds of people the evidence even if partial such as phonetaps needs to be made public to stop conspiracy theories and thus win the hearts and minds of people.

    I never made the stupid statements you are trying to bring into the equation that is your spin.

    Now I am asking you again to show me your evidence for your claims?

    Now I am asking you again to show me your evidence for your claims?

    Now I am asking you again to show me your evidence for your claims?

    Now I am asking you again to show me your evidence for your claims?

    Why won’t you either present the evidence or admit you didn’t have it?

    I ask you again respectfully to present the evidence I have been requesting from you since last week. It can’t be that difficult can it?

    So please I am asking you again to show me your evidence for your claims?

    I would appreciate an answer instead of your diversionary tactics.

    Now I am asking you again to show me your evidence for your claims?

  59. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:18 pm  

    Sid – Please post the evidence you have for your claim that the organisations you listed were behind this.

    I am asking for your sources that you have read from to be put onto the public table. so please list your sources which outline the involvement of the organisations you listed.

    Please can we have your evidence after waiting for many many many days now.

    You keep labelling people and making demands but won’t answer simple questions. Please lets have the links you are quoting from. Please please please please.

  60. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:19 pm  

    Please lets have the links Sid for your claims last week.

    Please.

  61. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:22 pm  

    On the contrary Imran Khan. You’ve made the claim that Bangladeshi hearts and minds are behind jihadi terrorism and the indiscrminate killing of innocent people. Right here on this thread:

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    Let’s be sure about what you are doing here. You are suggesting that that the large majority of Bangladeshis are jihadis and extremists! And you have the temerity to say this:

    Anyone who disagrees with you is labelled as an Islamist or Islamist Sympathiser.

    I’m saying the exact opposite. But you’re suggesting an entire country’s hearts and minds are Jihadi Islamist or Islamist Sympathiser!!

  62. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:24 pm  


    Please lets have the links Sid for your claims last week.

    Please

    Here you go

  63. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:24 pm  

    Sid – “Just a lot of conspiracy theories on the Mumbai attack. But nothing to say that Bangladeshi people’s hearts and minds are behind indiscriminate jihadi killing of innocents, as you have claimed.”

    BTW For the record I never said that “Bangladeshi people’s hearts and minds are behind indiscriminate jihadi killing of innocents, as you have claimed.”

    I said:

    “Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.”

    So you can see how things are being twisted.

    The point about winning hearts and minds is that there is a battle going on to convince people that the ideology of the people who did this is wrong and to continue to win that battle and thus the hearts and minds of people involves being open even to a degree about the evidence to destroys the lies of those thought to be involved in the attacks.

    Thats been my point all along but an editorial staff member here is distorting what I am saying to pursue his own agenda which is unfair.

  64. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:26 pm  

    Sid – Thats a new story of an arrest in an ongoing investigation and as your own article says he may be release. It isn’t evidence. Please supply evidence for your claims.

  65. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:29 pm  

    Perhaps, but that’s my evidence. We’re still waiting for yours.

  66. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:32 pm  

    Sid – ” Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    Let’s be sure about what you are doing here. You are suggesting that that the large majority of Bangladeshis are jihadis and extremists!”

    Ok where did I say that? I said the complete opposite and never ever used the words jihadis and extremists that is your smear and digusting distortion of what I said. I said that the evidence should be used to show these people are not fighting any freedom battle. You just hung your self with your smears.

    I never made those statements and you know that. What you are doing is disgusting in altering what I said to prove a point and it is uncalled for.

    “And you have the temerity to say this:

    Anyone who disagrees with you is labelled as an Islamist or Islamist Sympathiser.

    I’m saying the exact opposite. But you’re suggesting an entire country’s hearts and minds are Jihadi Islamist or Islamist Sympathiser!!”

    Where did I say those exact words. Now either show me saying those exact words or damn well apologise for your disgusting smears of my comments.

    I never ever said that once. I said to win the hearts and minds and the rest is your fabrication.

    I am sick and tired of your approach. I am happy to debate honestly and within the scope of what people said. I have apologise to you when I made a mistake.

    But you are rewriting what I said and that is just disgusting and not a correct thing to do.

    I never said what you are implying and you need to acknowledge that now.

    You have derailed another thread with you usual behaviour which is now out of control and your comments are wholly a distortion of what I said.

  67. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:35 pm  

    Sid – “Perhaps, but that’s my evidence. We’re still waiting for yours.”

    Whose this we. Most other people will understand what I say apart from the one who smears and distorts what people say.

    My point was that to win hearts and minds of people then some evidence needs to be released. Otherwise conspiracy theories start and the only winners are the terrorists. Then I showed you evidence that conspiracy theories are starting.

    Your evidence after rather grand claims was that of an arrest of a person who even GoogleNews report may be released. Whoopi great evidence.

  68. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:36 pm  

    Imran, It seems that you are now saying you didn’t mean what you said *after* being unable to find any evidence to back your appalling irresponsible statement up.

  69. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:39 pm  

    Sid – I mean what I said and I don’t appreciate your continued distortion of my words.

    What I said and continue to say loudly is that India needs to produce some evidence in order to dispel conspiracy theories that are emerging to win the hearts and minds of people in the region.

    So show me where I said what you falsely claim I said:

    “You are suggesting that that the large majority of Bangladeshis are jihadis and extremists!”

    Show me where I used that wording.

    Either put up or shut up.

    I never said that and you are distorting my words and smearing me.

  70. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:43 pm  

    Sid – If you are so sure of your false claims then get one of your editorial colleagues to back you up.

    Ask Sunny to show me exactly where I said what you claim.

    Go on ask him to post and show me. I’ll accept that.

    But you know you can’t.

    I never said that and have been clear on my points.

    So go on if you are so sure call in the Chief Editor. I am happy to listen to him. So come on show him your claims and my words and we’ll see.

  71. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:43 pm  

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    To me this means that Bangladeshis and Pakistanis have the belief that Jihadi terrorists are “fighting for freedom”. And to convince them that they are “killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.”

    I think you’ve been hoisted with your own petard. Again.

  72. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:46 pm  

    Sid – In anyone’s English

    Me saying:

    “Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.”

    You writing a bunch of fiction as what I said:

    “Let’s be sure about what you are doing here. You are suggesting that that the large majority of Bangladeshis are jihadis and extremists!”

    Is a complete and utter distortion of what I said, the wording I used and the spirit in which I said it.

    So bring out the Chief Editor to back you up and lets see if he agrees with twist.

  73. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:51 pm  

    Sid – “To me this means that Bangladeshis and Pakistanis have the belief that Jihadi terrorists are “fighting for freedom”. And to convince them that they are “killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.”

    I think you’ve been hoisted with your own petard. Again.”

    And there you have it its your twist and smear on things and not actually what was said.

    What it means is that to utterly destroy the claim made by terrorist that they are fighting for freedom means showing even partially the evidence that they are cunning, pre-planning indiscriminate killers and thereby winning the minds of people in the region by exposing these people for what they are.

    Not that I like you but if you could put aside your rampant hatred for me you’d see that by opening themselves up the organisations thought to be implicated in these attacks are trying to convince people of their innocence. To counter that your unnamed sources with snippets of information are not good enough. It needs some of the evidence out in the open so people can call them what they are and the calls to bring them to justice is clear.

    Your gross distortion of my words and now wriggling to get out of your own mess simply highlights why you can’t grasp what is needed to win this battle and counter this ideology.

    Oh and if minds didn’t have to be won why did the terrorists open up to new organisations. Due to the previous intelligance failures most people will be suspicious of claims by western spy agencies and due to hostilities of Indian claims thus the evidence should be brought forth to put that to rest. It is a simple concept except you are not wanting to see this is the best way forward so instead of saying possibly you smear me for saying it.

    again ask your own editorial colleagues for an impartial review and lets see. Are you willing to do that?

    It is a fair test – an impartial review by one of the other editorial team. lets see if you are up for that challange or will you run away.

  74. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:58 pm  

    Mr. Chief Editor – Do you agree that to stop the conspiracy theories such as it was Hindu’s, The CIA, MOssad etc. growing that India need to release some evidence to win the hearts and minds of the region?

  75. Sid — on 8th December, 2008 at 7:58 pm  

    ah but that’s not what you said in the statement we’re discussing.

    Anyone with a single brain cell can see that to convince people in Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. that these people are simply not fighting for freedom but killing indiscriminately means winning the minds of people.

    In other words the people need to be convinced that terorists are not freedom fighters. And this will require “winning the minds”.

    I go to Bangladesh quite often and I can assure you that terrorists are regarded as scum by ordinary people. Don’t try to speak on behalf of an entire nation and super-impose your disgusting bedroom-jihadi ideas upon ordinary peace-loving people.

  76. Ravi Naik — on 8th December, 2008 at 8:29 pm  

    Are you freaking serious? With many conspiracy theories already making the rounds of course you need show evidence to win the hearts and minds of people.

    Imran Khan, all the evidence they need is this: that a group of men killed indiscriminately as many people as they could. That is a fact.

    You are smearing the people of Bangladesh and Pakistan by saying that they need to understand their motives before feeling empathy with the people that died in the hands of those murderers, or otherwise they are seen as heroes. One would expect that sort of smear from Islamophobes like Melanie Philips.

  77. Ashik — on 8th December, 2008 at 9:07 pm  

    I think Imran Khan is correct that ordinary people in Bangladesh, India and Paskistan need to see solid evidence before they will turn on Islamists. Given the lack of education and impartial media, ordinary desis see conspiracy theories everywhere.

    Remember the axion: One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.

    As long as islamist violence is occuring in Iraq and Afghanistan it is often seen in romantiic terms as Muslim brothers fighting the good fight against Kaffirs (most Bangladeshis I spoke to are not aware that Iraq is split in three between Sunni,. Kurd and Shia and that the latter two factions are broadly Pro-US presence) but as soon as Islamist violence eg. bombings start in ones home country many desis start to feel the impact of such actions and begin to turn against such actions.

    Too often govt proclamations against Islamist violence in BD, India and Pak is seen as govts reacting to Western pressure and is viewed with cynicism. Govt’s need to convince their ppl and take them with them. No doublespeak should be allowed eg. Pak entities like ISI helping terrorists while the govt swears blind they’ve closed all the training camps.

  78. douglas clark — on 8th December, 2008 at 11:35 pm  

    Ashik,

    You are turning into a complete moron here. You say this:

    Kurd and Shia and that the latter two factions are broadly Pro-US presence) but as soon as Islamist violence eg. bombings start in ones home country many desis start to feel the impact of such actions and begin to turn against such actions.

    If they have any sense whatsoever, of course they do!

    I’d have forgiven you that lapse, who am I to forgive anyones’ lapse, but you are such an ignorant moron to follow it up with this:

    Too often govt proclamations against Islamist violence in BD, India and Pak is seen as govts reacting to Western pressure and is viewed with cynicism.

    Why should Islamist violence anywhere be acceptable to anyone? It is Muslims these jihadists kill. You happy about that?

    It is only acceptable to Islamacists. Not Muslims.

    You are a really annoying piece of bacon.

  79. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 11:50 pm  

    Sid – “In other words the people need to be convinced that terorists are not freedom fighters. And this will require “winning the minds”.

    I go to Bangladesh quite often and I can assure you that terrorists are regarded as scum by ordinary people. Don’t try to speak on behalf of an entire nation and super-impose your disgusting bedroom-jihadi ideas upon ordinary peace-loving people.”

    Oh please you are asking everyone to accept that in a conservative society they pour out their heart to someone who isn’t even Muslim. Right get over yourself man.

    Clearly there are conspiracy theories going around and I’ve given you links so people are spreading rumours. To counter that you need to win hearts and minds by showing people that these people did it and not rely on the fact that Judge Sid Dred-ful said so.

    “disgusting bedroom-jihadi ideas upon ordinary peace-loving people.”

    Your usual smear tactics are up again. But it shows how you desperatly go to new gutter levels to smear people. Further up you said there were training camps for terrorists in Bangladesh and now your saying they are peace loving. Switching stories to suit your current fairy tale.

    Clearly given the fact that there are conspiracy theories down to the fact the arrestedman had something on his wrist causing some of your SE Asian bruvvers to say that he is Hindu to warrant a hearts and mind campaign.

    But no because you Sid have decided that people are guilty that should be enough because oh I forgot you said so.

    But the evidence which is emerging with conspiracy theories is contrary. So something needs to be done.

    I choose taht India makes some of its evidence public to refute these people.

    You choose to say nothings wrong.

    Lets see what happens but when people say it was Hindus, Mossad and the CIA in increasing numbers you better be man enough to stand up and admit your are wrong.

  80. Imran Khan — on 8th December, 2008 at 11:58 pm  

    Douglas – “Why should Islamist violence anywhere be acceptable to anyone? It is Muslims these jihadists kill. You happy about that?

    It is only acceptable to Islamacists. Not Muslims.”

    No one is happy about that. The point is that the information we have over here these people may not have. In the examples I gave above, national news media in Pakistan is saying that the evidence isn’t concrete so already there is doubt being put into peoples minds.

    To counter that something needs to be done otherwise the conspiracy theories grow.

    It isn’t great but the fact is that due to decades of mistrust in that region then people will increasingly blame the wrong parties unless somethign is done rapidly.

    Many theories already abound and it can only get worse unless this is checked now.

    It isn’t the violence that is acceptable it is the fact that there are denial stories which people may naively accept due to lack of evidence. So there is no harm in putting before people some evidence to say yes they did this.

    The point is this issue needs to be raised above the communal level of violence which allows criminals to get away with such acts. Its happened before and is happening again. Communal loyalty is being used to deny justice.

  81. Imran Khan — on 9th December, 2008 at 12:29 am  

    people may be interested in looking at this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/south_asia_mumbai_attacks0_karachi_voices/html/6.stm

    this is hy i am saying release some of the evidence to counter this.
    For saying this I am being smeared by a member of the editorial team because he is claiming people believe his fairy tale.

  82. Raj Saxena — on 9th December, 2008 at 12:44 am  

    What does that show? You can find Iraqis who supported the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

  83. Imran Khan — on 9th December, 2008 at 1:56 am  

    Sid – “Please lets have the links Sid for your claims last week.

    Please

    Here you go”

    Well well well. You made your claims last week as fact. Your inly reliance is on a report today. So when you made the claims you have failed to provide zero links to back up your claims from the time which implies that you were chancing you absolute facts which you claimed at the time.

    This is reporting of the worst sort in not actually having any facts at the time and claiming it as fact.

    It really exposes your style and is a sad reflection of what is being permitted here. Any publication would find this behaviour unacceptable from an editorial member.

    This should really dull your fan base because when you told them and smearedme in reality you relied on chance you were correct. Brilliant!

  84. Imran Khan — on 9th December, 2008 at 2:00 am  

    Raj – “What does that show? You can find Iraqis who supported the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.”

    It shows that the seeds of conspiracy theories and communal history are being allowed to gain ground.

    In order to combat this India should release some of the phone tap evidence it says and the USA say they have in order to stop this nonsense from continuing.

    The fact is that terrorism and indiscriminate killing are a scrouge on humanity and in order to defeat them means dispelling such myths.

    Although I dislike Sid for his over the top style, I would agree with him on the fact that noone can support the indiscrimiate caranage that is being wrought. Where I differ is that I say we use the evidence to hand to expose the people who did this as liars and not rely on unnamed sources from the USA to act as judge and jury.

    The evidence is there so lets bring it forth and expose these people as killers and liars to people in the region who are exposed to different reporting.

  85. Jason — on 9th December, 2008 at 4:45 am  

    Can anyone tell me why Muslims are Always bigot about their own Religion? You would find many Christians or Hindus or Any other Religion supporting people belonged to other religion, But you would hardly find any Muslim supporting people from other religion. Look at “IMRAN” Instead of supporting the people who were killed, he is trying to support the Terrorists! Shame on you! I must say that! People like “IMRAN” Should go to DOZAK (HELL)

  86. Kulvinder — on 9th December, 2008 at 6:32 pm  

    Yes they did. Where did they present there evidence at the time?

    This depends on what the conspiracy theorists mean by ‘time’ the case against Zacarias Moussaoui was presented to a grand jury for indictment in December 2001; what you’re possibly saying is the US refused to negotiate with the taliban, which is true.

    It was their perogative, the taliban ‘government’ was only recognised by a few countries.

  87. Imran Khan — on 9th December, 2008 at 6:44 pm  

    “Jason” or possible Sid in disguise – “Can anyone tell me why Muslims are Always bigot about their own Religion? You would find many Christians or Hindus or Any other Religion supporting people belonged to other religion, But you would hardly find any Muslim supporting people from other religion. Look at “IMRAN” Instead of supporting the people who were killed, he is trying to support the Terrorists! Shame on you! I must say that! People like “IMRAN” Should go to DOZAK (HELL)”

    You’ve not read what I have actually said have you? Instead you shoot your mouth off. I never support the terrorists. What I said clearly and continue to do so is that no excuses should be available for the terrorists and India should present some evidence to stop the various theories that are startign to take hold.

    How can that be considered backing terrorists over those killed. It is people like you with their head in the sand who won’t acknowledge that a sustained campaign to marginalise the terrorists is needed,.

    Due to previous communal history which you clearly have no idea about and despite the links I have posted to show that people in that region are drifitng towards communal issues you choose to have a go at me and not comprehend that what I am advocating would support the bringing to justice of the terrorists by showing their involvement to all concerened in that region and making their guilt plain to see. That is hardlu support now is it.

    Try reading and then commenting.

    Show one statement I have made which backs up your fairytale of a story which is nothign but a work of fiction.

  88. Imran Khan — on 9th December, 2008 at 6:48 pm  

    “This depends on what the conspiracy theorists mean by ‘time’ the case against Zacarias Moussaoui was presented to a grand jury for indictment in December 2001; what you’re possibly saying is the US refused to negotiate with the taliban, which is true.

    It was their perogative, the taliban ‘government’ was only recognised by a few countries.”

    It was their perogative but it meant that the USA didn’t win over the peole in the regionand that is something they are struggling to overcome. Less grandstanding at the time and a better approach would have carried world opinion and regional opinion at the time.

    That is why I say India needs to avoid the same route and tackle the issue head on and say to the region that here is some of the planning now lets all work together to arrest these killers and show them that as a region we won’t stand for this. That I think is the common sense approach as it brings people with India rather than allowing them to hide behind lack of evidence presented.

    That is my worry and I think the best way to show people like those in the BBC survey is by making some of the evidence public.

  89. Kulvinder — on 9th December, 2008 at 7:04 pm  

    It was their perogative but it meant that the USA didn’t win over the peole in the regionand that is something they are struggling to overcome.

    Its frankly absurd to suggest the refusal of the US to enter into negotiations with an organisation that very few recognised as legitimate somehow meant people weren’t ‘won over’; since you’re vociferous in your request for links im sure you’ll be happy to point out which study and/or poll supports that assertion.

  90. Jasise — on 22nd December, 2008 at 1:57 pm  

    What is the coward govnmemt of india waiting for.To see 5000 people die,then they will react or think of what to be done. If they are too old,better go home,let some responsible and bold people take bold descision.The ministers are only sitting and shitting so far. Real cowards,should be ashamed to be called leaders. They vowed to serve and protect the nation,But instead saving their own skin only.PEOPLE OF INDIA MUST GIVE THEM A LESSON FOR LIFE.SO THAT THEY STOP FOOLING PEOPLE FOR THEIR VOTES ONLY.THROW THEM OUT ONCE FPR ALL.

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