Both those were less interested in equality, and more interested in black empowerment – with the view that power equality would only come once blacks made themselves into a powerful, political, cohesive force. I’m sorry but I’m not going to sit here and condemn them

I am not saying JJ and Al Sharpton are bad people and should be condemned, but I do not see what these two politicians have done to have contributed directly or indirectly to Obama’s success. Their politics were divisive and polarising and did very little to empower black politicians at mainstream level. Obama went precisely the opposite way, going for unity and equality. Not surprisingly, Al Sharpton, said in late 2007 that Obama behaved like he was white. And JJ wanted to “cut Obama’s nuts” for having the gull to talk about father responsibility in the black community.

I am also not sure how affirmative action works to get politicians elected in Chicago. What I know is that Obama went to Harvard on his own merit, no affirmative action. By the way, Obama is not unique. There is an exciting new generation of elite African-American and minority politicians (including Indian-Americans) who represent this post-identity-racial politics. Who talk about diversity and unity, despite the fact that minorities *are* still treated like shit in America.

They should informally profile music types and likely outcomes of the crowds — not races. You’ll obviously need some tougher security at a UK speed garage event with So Solid Crew gracing the stage (have they ever had a gig without some upstart trying to pop a cap?) than a Vanessa Mae concert. Obviously.

This seems totally reasonable and highly effective. Why does the police want to rely on something that not only is controversial but also highly ineffective?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/sep/16/proms.classicalmusicandopera

I was expecting the usual rant about jingoism and so on, so it was a pleasant surprise.

There were 76 promenade concerts on consecutive days this year at the Albert Hall. There were no reports of any kind of violent incidents or disorder, let alone stabbings. Same for the past 103 years. There must be something of significance there.

Bringing guns in to clubs is a regular occurrence here where I live. Yes said clubs are vast majority black but the element that determines violence is the dark, violent and sometimes nasty lyrics and aggressive attitude in the music which does not bode well for a nicey nicey atmos. More… gangsta.

Contrast and compare the violence between the rock pub and the UK garage club down the road. One has been shut down, at long last, due to multiple gun attacks. I was amazed at how long the autorities allowed the place to stay open. And the police had a very hands off approach to the place. Didn’t want to be ‘hassling’ people. Even though people died there.

The other has hardly ever any trouble in it at all.

SONIA – no one is ‘forced’ to complete a diversity monitoring form- and even if they choose to fill in the form, they can always tick the box ‘do not wish to reveal’ etc. but “we” all just have to ask nicely, because without fail, each and every public funded project (that’s who i meant when i said ‘we’)has to report how you are meeting equalities targets. you wouldn’t get public funding if you don’t say you are meeting equalities targets, that’s the point.

(that’s the world i was talking about – re: diversity monitoring forms), perhaps i should have made that clear. participants in a publicly funded event will be kindly asked to fill out the forms. they don’t have to – but you’re screwed if you don’t get them. you can’t make them up…(in theory anyway) though of course regeneration organisations do their best most people though don’t seem to mind at all – perhaps because the sorts of people one hauls along to these events generally are used to the idea of bureaucracy and form-filling to get access to publicly funded events/opportunities etc.

yes ethnicity reporting isn’t THE SAME AS skin colour reporting. its about what ‘group’ you feel you fall into. you can have a ‘white’ looking skin and report as black if thats the ethnic group you feel you want to self define as, and be brownlooking and put Mixed or White if you feel thats the ethnic group you feel you are part of, say if you’re of mixed parentage, no one is going to say to a mixed kid, you cant self report as white. loads of people do .

that’s the fun thing about the ethnic box ticking exercise is here (unlike the USA) we can all tick what we like – and it wouldn’t be ‘lying’ because its all about how you self-define your ethnic grouping.

I think we should all just put Mixed and when the next Census rolls around we do the same

but why the need to know our skin colours?

In the Census they don’t ask for skin colour.

“Do you think the amount of minority based organisations which receive public funding do anything to dispel this myth?”

It depends on which organisation it is. Some, like the MCB, Sikh Federation, etc. are divisive. Others, like the Southall Black Sisters, are okay in that they are specialists in particular areas (especially when it comes to language).

Sunny:

“First comes the view that black people cause trouble and therefore racial profiling is a great idea. All this was pushed by the Tories before ‘political correctness gone mad’ ethnic quotas came in. So I’m afraid your logic doesn’t stand.”

Yes, diversity monitoring forms did not create the problem. But don’t you think that when the state racially profiles us it simply adds to the sense of the divide- I am white, you are brown (or wheatish), so we should be treated differently?

“Similarly, quotas can initially provide a push that opens the door for others. Only when politicians and media become comfortable with the idea of minorities among them, that the doors start opening up. That’s the way it is.”

Based on British history, I think that is debatable. During the Raj, We had MPs from India, Indian princes captaining our cricket team, lots of Indians attending Cambridge, yet post-1947 Indians, in some senses, had to start all over again.

Leon:

“I’m not particularly hung up on the fact that the state classifies people really; no industrial society can exist without some planning, planning means mapping things like population, and part of that will be things like the census.”

But why the need for so much information? It is one thing to know the number of people in an area, and thr age range (for schools, old people’s homes), but why the need to know our skin colours?

Both those were less interested in equality, and more interested in black empowerment – with the view that power equality would only come once blacks made themselves into a powerful, political, cohesive force. I’m sorry but I’m not going to sit here and condemn them for the time and era they had to live in. Its easy to say JJ and AS were against equality at a time when blacks were treated like shit openly.

They may not have had the same style as MLK but they weren’t out to supress white males and white society – merely to take a more confrontational approach.

Similarly – when my uncles and forefathers beat the crap out the Nazis who came to Southall, I’m not going to sit here and condemn that by saying thats not fighting for equality.

the fight has different stages at different times.

Obama didn’t get to be president with quotas, nor did he have his work done by the Jacksons and the Sharpton’s

I didn’t say Obama was helped by either (though he had a more tacit relationship with Rev Sharpton who neither openly helped him nor hindered him, realising that times had changed better than JJ did). But Obama was helped by the black politics in Chicago that was borne out of Affirmative Action. That much is pretty undeniable. Blacks have always been organised in Chicago precisely because of people like AL and JJ who were interested in black self-empowerment.

In practice, quotas are a poisoned present to minorities

Like I said – it depends on the environment. If you’re talking 1960-1990s America, then no they weren’t. Right now they probably are poison in certain areas, maybe not the south. In the UK I don’t think they work.

But then the MET doesn’t have quotas, it has targets to try and reflect the population it serves. I don’t see that as a problem.

The arguement about Damian Greens rights and the rights of clubbers are not divisible. They sit well within the spectrum of a state that desires to curtail freedoms. Whether those of Tory MPs or people that just want to ‘chill’.

Their back door methods of introducing ID by stealth suggest that they well know the ideas of divide and conquer.

Could we please get it clear that an attack on one target is an attack on us all?

No, probably not.

In my opinion, this government is in control freak mode.

Great work, guys.

Happy to be corrected, but do you not hold out the slightest, faintest possibility that more people are not complaining because either 1) they know they have a right to refuse or 2) not everyone gets their underwear in a knot and sees conspiracy around every corner.

besides surely this is all too much work for the Police,

The club profiling issue yeah, but then they’ve just been given new powers to demand we show ID of some form when they want so I doubt they’ll complain…

besides surely this is all too much work for the Police, isnt it far more likely some corporate behind this trying to work out where and who to target their marketing!

I’m not particularly hung up on the fact that the state classifies people really; no industrial society can exist without some planning, planning means mapping things like population, and part of that will be things like the census.

To those that don’t want to be categorised by our society I’d seriously suggest going to live in a jungle as a tribes person! In our society we’re never getting away from it. I just don’t think information has to be collected to such extremity or used consciously to control us.

its what after all keeps the MCB and such orgs in business.