I like especially those ones who put on a moderate facade when they are on PP and while on those sites you refer to — they are picture perfect haters of anyone who happen to belong to a particular religion, country etc etc. We all know who we are talking about.

Agreed. For example, I think that a certain someone ranting about “Hindu dogs”, “the gutter next door”, “pahenchhods”, “motherfuckers”, and (in relation to Jewish victims of the Holocaust) “cockroaches” probably isn’t going to do himself any favours in relation to other people’s perceptions of his own state of mind or motivations for criticising members of the aforementioned religions, country etc in any given discussion.

Especially when he subsequently starts complaining that “some people” are attempting to malign him or misrepresent his opinions.

I like especially those ones who put on a moderate facade when they are on PP and while on those sites you refer to — they are picture perfect haters of anyone who happen to belong to a particular religion, country etc etc. We all know who we are talking about.

But no one can really call PP anything but moderate, thoughtful and usually united against bigotry and racism and divisions we could do without.

There is a common bond of humanity that binds us all — and humanity faces grave challenges not any particular race or religious group.

Whether its the economic crisis or the climate change or too many children still being abused (raped, killed or forced to become a soldier/killing machine) these challenges do pose threats to the way we live. The terrorists did not make any distinction between Hindus or Muslims — they just killed.

I completely agree with your sentiments @34.

But again you know as they say common sense is not common to all and obviously it has not been anywhere very near to Mr. George. But you cant prosecute idiots – shame

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Ashik – good post @32.

I agree with you to a large extent especially with the fact that niether India nor Pakistan or for that matter any South Asian country would let any part of their respective territorries go.

In fact this fear of domino effect has soured the relationship between India and Bangladesh — right after 1971. And, India simply did not want Bangladesh to be an inspiration to any group in India. And, that manifested into heavy handed approach which got rightly rebuffed and since then its been friendly yet not very trusting.

Considering the economic and security plight currently facing Pakistan wouldn’t it be best for Pakistan to accept the current borders in Kashmir? That would help Pakistan. But why is that not happening? Because the Indian State is ready to move on and have been under successive governments.

But India does need to look at home issues without a doubt. You cannot continue to have an India which is split into two with almost no connection with each other. One that has got education and opportunities while the others while benefiting from the boom still lack access to those key rights.

But once again good post.

Trust me, if many of the non-Muslims on PP really supported unjustified hatred and bile against Islam/Muslim South Asians, they’d be screaming for the massacre of Muslims in India in retaliation for the recent events in Mumbai and/or their expulsion en masse to Pakistan, along with supporting “wiping out” Pakistan and making all kinds of really horrific comments about Islam and Muslims in general. It would be much, much worse than the behaviour you think you’ve seen.

The number of commenters (especially those from a South Asian background) who have indeed made such remarks, both recently and historically, has been very small, and those who have engaged in such bigotry have frequently been attacked by non-Muslim commenters, including some of the “ex-Muslims” you have mentioned.

This isn’t exactly an anti-Muslim/anti-Islam/anti-Pakistan hate site, although unfortunately such poisonous websites do exist elsewhere on the internet as I’m sure you already know.

To be honest with you, we both know that my last two paragraphs in #31 were rhetorical. George is just being disingenuous in this thread and several others during the past few weeks, and is no doubt well aware of the immorality of his motivations and some of the logical fallacies involved in his arguments. Unless the guy really is that thick or blinded by hatred.

‘Well, like I’ve said before a couple of times, it’s obvious that there are a few commenters on PP with a virulently racist grudge against Indians/Hindus/etc’.

You can rest assured that a larger number of commentators with a virulent and racist grudge against Islam/Muslim South Asians etc also operate on PP. Hence the frequent threads on Islam and Muslims on PP exhibiting universal hostility. A couple of posters are ex-Muslims and are shown plenty of bonhomie by Indians, Hindus, and Sikhs as they launch their bile against us.

Fug has it spot on.

‘However I don’t think going to full independance for the Valley would be wise. If India was to pull out of the valley and grant independance to the Valley, then the world will see a blood bath as Kashmiris get overrun by dysfuctional Islamists’

Why don’t you let ordinary Kashmiris decide what they want? Isn’t that what democracy is all about?

In 1948, and again in 1949, the United Nations examined the region’s status and passed two resolutions; Kashmir’s final status was to be determined by a national plebiscite. This position was supported by BOTH India and Pakistan. This makes Kashmir an international issue.

The real reason India does not now abide by the UN Resolutions calling for a referendum and self-determination of the Kashmiri people is because they know Kashmiri’s would vote overwhelmingly for independence or alternatively to join with Pakistan if independence were not a choice.

India would no more permit Kashmir to vote for it’s freedom than Pakistan would for it’s troublesome Balochistan province. This is the starting-point for much of the internal conflicts and sporadic violence we see in both countries.

If India is unwilling to make major moves in it’s position of Kashmir as an indivisable part of India then India will just have to endure the pattern of violence it has suffered between Hindu and Muslim in the country. In that sense Mumbai cannot be compared to 9/11. The US is not illegally occupying and oppressing the people in one of it’s fifty states.

Other than being caught on Western media because Westerner’s were targetted, this incident seems little different than a string of others and the Indian response will probably be more of the ‘blame the other’ style. India needs to think outside the box in dealing with it’s disaffected Muslim population and dealing with Kashmir.

Excellent points as usual in #29, including some very pertinent questions.

But this guy is getting under my skin as well.

Well, like I’ve said before a couple of times, it’s obvious that there are a few commenters on PP with a virulently racist grudge against Indians/Hindus/etc.

Is George suggesting India adopt the same tactics such as used by ISI and LeT?

Good question.

As an alternative, perhaps George would prefer it if India annexed Pakistan, or even launched nuclear strikes against the entire country to “proactively” eliminate any perceived/actual threat completely. Since he’s an admirer of the concept of neutralising perceived enemies by any means necessary, regardless of the cost to innocents, and irrespective of the validity (or lack of it) of your own agenda and motivations.

Hell, according to that logic, the US should have just nuked the whole of Afghanistan after 9/11, since it had the capability of doing so and this would have taken out OBL, AQ’s core commanders, and their supporters amongst the Taleban. Problem solved. Maybe they should still nuke the entire border region between Pakistan and Afganistan, since OBL is hiding there. Unless George thinks there is also something “genetically wrong” with Americans not doing whatever it takes to defend themselves, regardless of how extreme their actions are. The ends justify the means, right ?

you have far better things to do with your time than respond to someone who is seriously challenged intellectually as well as being very biased. But this guy is getting under my skin as well.

He obviously fails to realise that there are huge land borders with most of India’s neighbouring countries some of which have become clearly safe houses for those who wish to cause harm to India. And, many state actors are actively supporting them.

Why India is such a target? Well, it represents everything these terrorists despise. Despite having serious problems, it has been able to maintain multi-party democracy, an actively independent judiciary and an armed forces which do not try to become the God fathers of the nation. And, these with a vast majority of citizens being secular causes headaches to jihadis. Especially, only when a very small fragment of the 160 million odd Muslims in India actually support any form of terrorism in their name.

What does it also say about the courage of people who hunker down in bunkers and send kids on a killing spree? Why dont they come out in the open and fight? Because they tried it various times in the past 60 years and guess what they lost everytime they tried.

The Pakistani President has refused to hand over Dawood Ibrahim or anyone for that matter. And Dawood is an Indian citizen. So, is Pakistan really trying to work with India?

Is George suggesting India adopt the same tactics such as used by ISI and LeT?

Given the fact that, in terms of bloodshed and destruction, the most havoc during the past 1000 years of subcontinental history has been wreaked by visitors from the northwest of the region — and its immediate northern and western neighbours — and that in the present day people of Pakistani origin and descent are causing huge terrorism/jihadi-related problems both “over there” and here in Britain, it’s a really bad idea for you to start making racist insinuations about “basic genetic problems”, as much worse accusations along similar lines could be hurled back in retaliation by those so inclined.

Stop constantly and deliberately insulting Indians and trying to trigger aggressive counter-responses in order to justify your own desire for conflict under a suitable pretext (“excuse” might be a better term).

Although if you understand that, you’ll begin to understand why Indians, in the present day and historically, have frequently not believed in engaging in aggressive pre-emptive attacks against potentially hostile foreign forces, and why being “reactive” is a more honourable course of action in such situations. Not everyone in the world believes in the Genghis Khan mode of warfare.

… Under directives from Pakistan’s army chief, General Ashfaq Kiani, who was then director general (DG) of the ISI, a low-profile plan was prepared to support Kashmiri militancy. That was normal, even in light of the peace process with India. Although Pakistan had closed down its major operations, it still provided some support to the militants so that the Kashmiri movement would not die down completely.

The attack, started from ISI headquarters and fined-tuned by al-Qaeda, has obviously caused outrage across India. The next issue is whether it has the potential to change the course of India’s regional strategy and deter it from participating in NATO plans in Afghanistan. …

I see that you hurl the slur bhangee at Indians.
For those who aren’t familiar with the term here on PP…
A Bhangee is a sanitation worker and in most cases rank even lower than Chamars-tannery workers, and the vettiyans or chandalas-who cremeate the dead. In India in the many years since independence and thanks to the work of a few noble folk including Gandhi, Baba Amte, and Dr. Bindeshwari Pathak and a considerable number of other radicals the sanitation worker is now called a safai karamchari. There are a number of different communities (or as you may insist castes) that have been heridatary safai karamcharis in India and that is now gradually changing, with the newer public conveniences – in the Sulabh Shauchalayas of New Delhi one can find Brahmans from Bihar working as safai karamcharis (read dalit scholar Chandrabhan Prasad’s take on the change.

The chamar (known as chekkili in the South and now Arunthathiyar) and the vettiyan (now called a adakkiyan or “one who inters”) work a few rungs below the Muslim Qasais or Ansaris (the traditional depressed communities in charge of tanning). While the Qasai slaughters the animal, the chamar flays, cleans, and dresses it for the Qasai or Ansari to work on. While there has been considerable progress in India for the safai karamchari (two of them are MPs) the community in Pakistan and Bangladesh has remained more or less where it was. During the Partition Pogrom of 1948 in Pakistan, the bhangee colonies too were attacked by the rampaging Muslim League mobs thirsting for slaughter, and they fled Karachi, there was a crisis as the sanitation operations ground to a halt (as Karachi like the rest of India still had dry latrines) The matter became so serious that Jinnah had to intervene with the mobs and hold them back, while promising the bhangees their safety. Today in Pakistan (and Bangladesh) a very large proportion of Hindus are sanitation workers. A few of them in Pakistan have over the years embraced Christianity and secured themselves employment in the Pakistan Railways. The Pakistan Army continues to employ many Hindu sanitation workers. Since this is an unglamorous consituency no “Hindu” leader has ever bothered to highlight their existence. As for Pakistan itself the term bhangee is a slur to be cast at all Hindus, and its use says a lot about the bigoted attitude of some Pakistanis (as small as their numbers may be.

In a Comment is free article by Issam Ahmed which was quoted by PP we were told not to point fingers at Pakistan. Ahmed stated that India always blames the ISI and visa versa, and it should start addressing the ‘economic disparity between the countries Hindu and Muslim population.’

While this may be true is this really the right time to raise these issues now? Last week, foreign terrorists attacked defenceless men, women and children in Mumbai with such coward ferocity that would have made the German SS Einsatzgruppen proud. I don’t think the killers were thinking about ‘disparity’ or the 2002 pogroms while pumping bullets into one of the waiters.

Now Indians are told ‘Blaming Pakistan not the answer.’ I may be wrong but isn’t it clear from the Indian police that the terrorists came from Pakistan and were linked to the Lashkar-e-Taiba terror group. No one is blaming the Pakistani people, but a government who continually shy away from confronting the ISI and its link to terror group LeT on its own soil.

Indians and Pakistanis should move forward from this and ensure that violent religious fundamentalism is opposed wherever it appears.

Its an answer.. and a tried and tested one at that.