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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Indians: blaming Pakistan is not the answer


    by Sunny on 2nd December, 2008 at 11:45 am    

    Consider these points:
    1) The international media’s glare on India is much stronger this time than earlier atrocities.

    2) It’s also likely India wants to influence Obama’s approach to South Asia - always a source of frustration because of America’s support for Pakistan while it is a key ally in Afghanistan.

    3) And finally, during earlier atrocities such as the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament in Dec 2001, Bush intervened to ease tensions. But now Bush is a lame-duck while Obama hasn’t assumed power.

    All this means that the sabre-rattling the Indian government and media are doing could rapidly spiral out of control into a full-scale war. Don’t doubt for a minute there aren’t hardliners on either side itching to teach the other side a lesson ‘once and for all’. Pakistan has already indicated it may move troops to the border if the latter made any “aggressive moves”, most likely to get the US to step forward but this may not materialise.

    While blaming Pakistan is the easy option, it’s futile.

    Firstly, I’m a bit suspicious of how quickly information is filtering out. Only a few days ago a senior minister said the bombers were from the UK, an assertion now refuted.

    Now, apparently, the sole captured terrorist is singing like a canary and the information rapidly fed to the media. Why is this all being leaked without even building a fuller picture of what happened? Me thinks someone is trying to push an agenda.

    Secondly, blaming Pakistan is a bit futile when the country can’t even control terrorists in its own backyard. In case readers are unaware, Pakistan itself faces weekly, sometimes daily, terrorist attacks that its government is unable to quell. The week I travelled through, terrorists even blew up Islamabad’s Anti-Terrorism Taskforce building. If they couldn’t stop the Marriott Hotel bombing, isn’t the former proof enough it has no control over what’s going on?

    The standard Indian hardliner’s dream strategy involves a daring attack on Pakistan, attacking its ‘terrorist training camps’, aka madrassahs, and solve the problem once and for all. Except that most of these madrassahs are used to simply educate poor children, and killing tens of thousands of innocent children is hardly likely to quell terrorism.

    Pakistan is sliding into anarchy and break-up - a state of affairs both Indian hardliners and the likes of Al-Qaeda want, for different reasons. But a dysfunctional Pakistan poses a bigger headache for India as it would offer easy pickings for terrorist recruiters. India needs to embrace Pakistan so tightly that its own destabilisation presents a threat to Pakistan’s interests. Unless their fortunes are tied closely, these rivals are unlikely to work together to lift their people out of poverty instead of spending that money on the military.

    And lastly, blaming Pakistan allows India to ignore its own failings. There is resentment amongst Indian Muslims because the country still fails to take seriously its own ingrained racism (not just against Muslims but also Dalits). Hardline Hindu groups, including the terrorists, need to face the same brunt of the law as Muslim hardliners. And, as William Dalrymple pointed out, Kashmir is still a human rights issue most Indians are unwilling to confront. That isn’t about ‘appeasing’ Muslims but about the fact that India cannot keep pointing the finger at Pakistan to paper over its own failings in human rights.

    But the Pakistan government, not the people, is to blame, for creating these monsters in the first place. The United States cannot be blamed for creating the Taliban and creating Lashkar-e-Taiba - that was funded and developed thanks to Pakistani intelligence services. Unless they stop supporting these groups, its own stability and that of its neighbour will always be threatened.

    So what should India do?
    For a start it needs to improve security and counter-terrorism. This means better security and training at airports, train stations, shipping ports and other important places. The response of the police and other services to the attack was pretty awful early on.

    It needs a Dept of Homeland Security and needs to boost intelligence when dealing with terrorist groups. That doesn’t mean illegal and mis-informed raids on Indian Muslim houses, because the Indian intelligence services have made plenty of mistakes in the past… it means getting some good technology and learning from US and UK (however imperfect they may be). India needs counter-terrorism intelligence for a new age, not just a blame game.

    And lastly, the new Pakistani president Asif Zardari, unpopular as he is, has made significant peace overtures towards India. These should be taken further and trade increased between the countries. We need lower tensions in South Asia so that terrorists are not used as pawns in a wider battle.

    Pakistan also has a terrorism problem: both countries need to fight it together if they are going to get anywhere.


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    Filed in: India,Pakistan,Terrorism






    39 Comments below   |  

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    1. Amrit — on 2nd December, 2008 at 12:33 pm  

      Really good piece. Utter common-sense. The sense of glee among Indians over Pakistan’s failings is dangerously dumb, especially as you point out, since they are neighbours and not hermetically-sealed separates.

    2. sonia — on 2nd December, 2008 at 1:51 pm  

      yes i echo amrit. this is all very dangerous and i found it really worrying when back in 2002 when there was that ‘near miss’ when friends from ‘both sides’ were really thinking actually let’s have a good go at the other side without seeming to be concerned/get the mutual annihilation principle…

      its about time the indian subcontinent sorted itself out -we are always setting at each other’s throats and no collaboration at all. no fellow feeling!

    3. fugstar — on 2nd December, 2008 at 2:03 pm  

      Tensions are under reported and already kicking of strife in India. I can understand why blaming Pakistan makes more sense than blaming Indian Muslims, not for nationalistic willy waving and blood capitalisation, but for other reasons.

      The drawback is more nuclear melodrama and the buggering up of potentially warmer intersocietal relations.

    4. Refresh — on 2nd December, 2008 at 2:20 pm  

      A fine summary of the situation. No disagreement apart from one of history over US’ role in the region. But that need not detain us.

    5. Klav — on 2nd December, 2008 at 2:24 pm  

      Sunny you make some key points but the truth of the matter is so far whatever evidence has been gathered points towards Pakistan. I can’t change that. I don’t like blaming Pakistan but if we have information to suggest that shouldn’t it be voiced in a constructive way. I agree the Indian media have gone over the top but sometimes you have to realize why there is such a reaction rather than totally dismiss it. I am an Indian journalist and have friends who are covering this case and honestly speaking most of the information we have got points towards this. I agree all of the blame shouldn’t go to Pakistan as it is true that even Indians may be indirectly or directly linked to these attacks, also our counter terrorism and intelligence units are in a mess and we must sort it. But that does not take away the fact that some of the people involved in the attacks were Pakistani and they were trained in Pakistan, when most evidence suggests that.

    6. TFI — on 2nd December, 2008 at 2:24 pm  

      I’ve just finished listening to the Nihal show. After listening to the callers express their opinions, perhaps another article would be appropriate:

      “(UK Pakistani) Muslims: blaming America is not the answer”

    7. shariq — on 2nd December, 2008 at 2:25 pm  

      Dude, unless something crazy happens there isn’t going to be a war. I know people like to talk India and Pakistan being the world’s most dangerous nuclear flashpoint but without nuclear weapons the chances of war would be much higher.

    8. Parvinder — on 2nd December, 2008 at 3:06 pm  

      #5: Klav, good point.

      Toddler Moshe Holtzberg, son of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and Rivka , was found by his nanny crying over his dead mother’s corpse. He still cries out for his parents. On NDTV we hear the story of a Muslim who lost four members of his family at Mumbai’s Railway station. He cannot understand why they had to die.

      The over-riding message from people of Mumbai is ‘enough is enough’. Yes, some heads have rolled and the government is set on over-hauling the security of the country with various measures (as outlined by Sunny). All good and about time but we need to go further and deal with the root cause as well.

      People feel the Pakistan leadership is not taking this seriously. They have terror groups in their midst, trained and funded by someone in their country. India has already given them a list of 20 terror suspects they want. As the US security and army from time to time have arrived in Pakistan to pursue individuals, India should be allowed to do the same. If the leaders and people of Pakistan are on India’s side, then I can’t see any reason for them to object.

      At the same time, the Kashmir question must be priority number one in the two countries peace talks, as well as bringing to book those who were involved in the Gujarat Pogroms on 2002 and the case against the Indian Colonel who has been linked to previous bomb explosions.

      In Condelezza Rice’s words ‘we need transparency and we need action’ and that applies to both sides. Failure to do the above will mean more attacks in the future, and give ammunition to those like former Bollywood actress Simi Garewal, who on a Sunday debate (The Big Fight on NDTV) outrageously called for the ‘carpet bombing’ of Pakistan. Luckily, she was strongly reburked by most of the audience.

    9. Jai — on 2nd December, 2008 at 3:19 pm  

      Parvinder,

      Very good post. I agree with most of your points.

      I do, however, have to politely disagree with the remarks about Simi Garewal on NDTV; she wasn’t talking about the “carpet bombing” of Pakistan as a whole but the areas where the terrorist training camps are. Also, she wasn’t strongly rebuked by “most of the audience”, just by that guy who appeared to have some kind of psychotic episode and ended up having to be restrained by the anchor.

      But the rest of your observations are excellent, as I said.

    10. Mike — on 2nd December, 2008 at 3:23 pm  

      I see that ‘lenin’ character is slagging you off.

      I wrote a few counter points on my blog.

      http://www.medialenswatch.blogspot.com

    11. Paul Moloney — on 2nd December, 2008 at 3:59 pm  

      “I see that ‘lenin’ character is slagging you off.”

      A badge of honour for most people to have the Ballymena posh boy on their case.

      And please don’t dignify him with the word “lenin”; at least make it Lenny.

      P.

    12. Shamit — on 2nd December, 2008 at 4:22 pm  

      Isnt India trying to work with Pakistan? I think India is. India has a long standing demand from Pakistan to hand over Dawood Ibrahim and that request dates back to I believe 1999.

      When the entire world’s intelligence agencies agree that Dawood Ibrahim, the key sponsor and key brain behind the 1993 Mumbai Blast, is in Karachi under the protection of ISI — it makes it hard to believe that Pakistan is willing to be a constructive force against the fight of cross border terrorism and other crimes.

      I agree with Sunny that Zardari and the PM and probably a vast majority of the Pakistani population wish to actually improve relations as that also improves economy.

      But Pakistan is a state where normal rules dont apply and what do you call a state where the PM cannot get the Intelligence wing to directly report to his office? Or has to backtrack on a promise to send the ISI DG to Mumbai after a meeting with the army chief?

      I dont think even Gen. KIyani wants bad relationship with India but what about rogue elements within the ISI who were apparently quite involved in the Afghanistan blast? or even now in this particular incident in Mumbai? That means the Pakistani Government has no control over the state apparatus and that makes it a failed state.

      LeT has been banned in Pakistan but they still run their bases from the other side of Indian Kashmir. Which is in effect under Pakistan control.

      If they are willing to work with India why dont they take out the LeT training camps which every intelligence agency satellites have delivered to their respective countries? Even the bloody Americans had prior knowledge that LeT naval wing was attempting an attack from the sea.

      Talk is cheap. If Pakistan really wishes to work with India then it must demonstrate its intentions by its actions not by hollow words.

    13. platinum786 — on 2nd December, 2008 at 4:22 pm  

      Take a note of my words today, look back at them and you’ll see I am right. There will be no war. This act of terrorism has been orchestrated by the BJP and it’s right wing allies to put pressure on Pakistan and the congress government in the run up to the elections, to stoke anti Muslim hate, so that they can win back the anti Muslim vote as they traditionally are the anti Pakistan party.

      Congress has had to retaliate and they too are now beating the drums of war and their chests as loud as they can to appear as big men so that they can limit how many votes they lose like this.

      The most you will see is a military standoff, you will not see a war.

      In fact scratch the first bit, regardless of who has done the attack, what is going to happen next is exactly the same.

    14. Shamit — on 2nd December, 2008 at 4:24 pm  

      platinum786 -

      you reckon Indians are that stupid?

    15. Shamit — on 2nd December, 2008 at 4:27 pm  

      On Pakistan —

      Remember the Kargil war, the Indian PM and the Pakistani PM pledged to have a different relationship in Lahore and there was a goodwill…while the then Army Chief Musharraf was sending in infiltrators (proper army) across Indian territorry. And the aftermath was too bloody and guess what no one claimed the bodies of the infiltrators.

      What does it tell of an Army that does not even accept back its fallen comrades? those who went in too carry out their superiors’ orders.

      As they say “You fool me once shame on you — you fool me twice shame on me.” — India has been fooled way to many times on these issues — so no more words of we need to work together -lets see some action for a change to back up the rhetoric.

    16. mk1 — on 2nd December, 2008 at 5:10 pm  

      platinum786 , you seem quite a well balanced bloke when you post on pp but its rather difficult to take you seriously given the deep hatred you show for Indians and Hindus on your own site. I mean you think Indians are from the ‘gutter next door’ then appear over here and attempt to post a balanced a fair viewpoint.

      I mean come on -

      Posts like -

      Bhangee Infestation
      platinum786
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      Posted on: Nov 19 2008, 11:53 AM

      GENERAL
      Group Icon

      Group: Moderator
      Posts: 18,735
      Joined: 16-October 02
      From: UK
      Member No.: 109

      Thanks for reporting that Hindu dogs posts. If you come across any more of the motherf**kers report them and as soon as we can we’ll delete their posts and ban them.

      Registration is open at the moment and the penchouds make new accounts every day….

      and

      platinum786
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      Posted on: Nov 18 2008, 12:18 PM

      GENERAL
      Group Icon

      Group: Moderator
      Posts: 18,735
      Joined: 16-October 02
      From: UK
      Member No.: 109

      The clues in the forum name buddy…

      Pakistani Defence Forum

      It’s for Pakistani’s who are interested in Defence and wish to discuss it in a forum.

      Members from the rest of the world, even the gutter next door are welcome, as long as they obey the rules.

      Anyone not obeying the rules, report to mods, especailly those from the gutter, and we’ll ship them.

    17. justforfun — on 2nd December, 2008 at 5:13 pm  

      So what should India do?

      Suggestions for better intelligence and response are all good advice. No doubt there will be a tendering process to see if its Isreali, UK or US forces that do the training. Even better if all three are used as then there will be 3 sets of kick backs to gather in. :-)

      Sunny - Blaming Pakistan is not to avoid having to deal with injustices in India, and its not futile - it is in fact very necessary. Because if the Indian Government was to blame Indian Muslims or even hint at it, it would be open season on the poorest community. Is that what is the prefered option?

      The blame game is a necessary re-action for the time being but I agree - in the future India must ween itself off this. The new danger of using the ‘blame game’ is that the Indian Army is restructuring itself to mobilize quickly under its new Cold Start doctrine of targetting the Pakistani Army directly and not the Pakistani state. This is taking time and is not probably workable as yet. No longer will there be weeks before the hot war starts. It could be days. But this is all in the future. But when in place , then we should really worry about the ‘blame game’ as there will be a short fuse.

      In the meantime India needs to get a grip on the human rights abuses in the Kashmir Valley by its security forces and not lower itself to the barbarity of the Islamists.

      Since the mid 80′s the Kashmir dispute has had an extra element added to the existing elements of ‘Kashmiri nationalism’ and ‘India/Pakistan nationalism’ - the extra element is ‘religion’

      so lets go through them.

      Every one is aware of the India/Pakistan nationalism. This fight is over - its history now. After the brutality of the Islamists and the current madness in Pakistan only a tiny minority of Kashmiris in the Valley want anything to do with Pakistan, let alone those outside the Valley like the Shia in the North or Ladakhis in the East. If this was the only component of the conflict , then the Indian State is more than capable of containing the situation. The troops would like nothing better than to pull out of the Valley and go back to the LOC where it is relatively peaceful and the pre 1987 staus quo can return to the LOC. However there are still the other two elements to deal with.

      Kashmiri nationalism - this is the oldest factor and pre-dates 47. This British made allowances for it and the Indian Constitution makes allowances for it both by its secular nature and in areas concerning economics/investment/property. Property Rights, company ownership, inheritance, etc etc are unique in Kashmir - (google article 370 of the constitution for further details) - however while this on the face of things might seem to protect Kashmiris - it has in the long run isolated them and as India becomes more prosperous it will prove a hinderance to the economic development of Kashmir - Dr Ambedka was right to warn of it consequences. I would suggest it needs re-nogotiation but in a calm atmosphere. However I don’t think going to full independance for the Valley would be wise. If India was to pull out of the valley and grant independance to the Valley, then the world will see a blood bath as Kashmiris get overrun by dysfuctional Islamists bend on creating a New Paradise on Earth, justlike Afghanistan and Pakistan. The current indigenous seperatists would be quickly eaten up by the Islamists from Pakistan and most Kashmiris know this and most have taken the demand for full independance off the table.

      The final and most recent element - religion. Everyone knows there is not one universal Islam and Kashmiri Islam was far different to the sort now in the news. However whenever we mention ‘religion’ and Kashmir in the same breath we are all guilty of dragging this highly toxic and alien element into the mix - there is no solution when religion is envoked, only total victory or total anihalation. So in future lets not glibly say there needs to be a ‘Kashmiri solution’ before the Islamists will stop. There is no connection between a solution to Kashmirs problems and religion. Each time we try and make a link we only strengthen the Islamists and fall into their agenda - they would like nothing better than to make this a Hindu / Muslim conflict . They’ve done a good job so far but they have not actually won yet, and their propoganda gains can be reversed. Their agenda needs to be taken off the table and seen for what it is - a way to entrench their power. If we continue to just glibbly follow their agenda we are damning the Valley to a living hell, for generations to come.

      justforfun

    18. Jai — on 2nd December, 2008 at 5:16 pm  

      This act of terrorism has been orchestrated by the BJP and it’s right wing allies to put pressure on Pakistan and the congress government in the run up to the elections, to stoke anti Muslim hate, so that they can win back the anti Muslim vote as they traditionally are the anti Pakistan party.

      Given the fact that the FBI is now directly involved in the investigation, along with detectives from numerous other countries, it will be interesting to see the reaction of people proposing such “theories” when the real facts emerge, especially if it’s confirmed that groups (rogue or otherwise) based in Pakistan were involved in planning and executing this attack.

      *********************

      Shamit,

      you reckon Indians are that stupid?

      Yes, he does.

      Incidentally, it’s turned out that the wife of the rabbi who was murdered (and the mother of that orphaned 2-year-old) was 6 months pregnant when she was killed. This just gets worse and worse.

      Apparently many of the hostages had been horribly tortured before being murdered, especially the Jewish ones. Even the rescued toddler shows bruising consistent with physical abuse.

      I agree completely with your posts #12 & 15.

    19. Shamit — on 2nd December, 2008 at 5:31 pm  

      Thanks Jai.

      It was heart wrenching to see the little boy on TV crying for his parents.

      The terrorists were such brave warriors they had to go and kill a man of faith, his wife and his unborn child. Fucking scum.

      This is brilliant post by an Indian Muslim

      http://thetimesofbullshit.blogspot.com/2008/11/dear-mr-terrorist.html

    20. S Johal — on 2nd December, 2008 at 10:39 pm  

      All out war between India and Pakistan at this moment is a remort possibilty, for the simple reason that it is not in the interest of US foreirgn policy {afganistan, India Nuclear deal and so on} There is a saying, that 3A’s rule Pakistan, America, Allah and Army and they are still there.

    21. dave bones — on 2nd December, 2008 at 10:42 pm  

      Indians: blaming Pakistan is not the answer

      Its an answer.. and a tried and tested one at that.

    22. Parvinder — on 2nd December, 2008 at 11:17 pm  

      #19 Shamit
      Excellent post. especially ‘by an Indian Muslim’

      In a Comment is free article by Issam Ahmed which was quoted by PP we were told not to point fingers at Pakistan. Ahmed stated that India always blames the ISI and visa versa, and it should start addressing the ‘economic disparity between the countries Hindu and Muslim population.’

      While this may be true is this really the right time to raise these issues now? Last week, foreign terrorists attacked defenceless men, women and children in Mumbai with such coward ferocity that would have made the German SS Einsatzgruppen proud. I don’t think the killers were thinking about ‘disparity’ or the 2002 pogroms while pumping bullets into one of the waiters.

      Now Indians are told ‘Blaming Pakistan not the answer.’ I may be wrong but isn’t it clear from the Indian police that the terrorists came from Pakistan and were linked to the Lashkar-e-Taiba terror group. No one is blaming the Pakistani people, but a government who continually shy away from confronting the ISI and its link to terror group LeT on its own soil.

      Indians and Pakistanis should move forward from this and ensure that violent religious fundamentalism is opposed wherever it appears.

    23. comrade — on 2nd December, 2008 at 11:37 pm  

      Only by getting rid of this currupt politians on both sides, there is a hope for change in the Indian Sub Continent, otherwise its all wishfull thinking. and change only comes through struggle and not by indludging in interlectaul masterbation

    24. kELvi — on 3rd December, 2008 at 6:07 pm  

      Platinum786,

      I see that you hurl the slur bhangee at Indians.
      For those who aren’t familiar with the term here on PP…
      A Bhangee is a sanitation worker and in most cases rank even lower than Chamars-tannery workers, and the vettiyans or chandalas-who cremeate the dead. In India in the many years since independence and thanks to the work of a few noble folk including Gandhi, Baba Amte, and Dr. Bindeshwari Pathak and a considerable number of other radicals the sanitation worker is now called a safai karamchari. There are a number of different communities (or as you may insist castes) that have been heridatary safai karamcharis in India and that is now gradually changing, with the newer public conveniences - in the Sulabh Shauchalayas of New Delhi one can find Brahmans from Bihar working as safai karamcharis (read dalit scholar Chandrabhan Prasad’s take on the change.

      The chamar (known as chekkili in the South and now Arunthathiyar) and the vettiyan (now called a adakkiyan or “one who inters”) work a few rungs below the Muslim Qasais or Ansaris (the traditional depressed communities in charge of tanning). While the Qasai slaughters the animal, the chamar flays, cleans, and dresses it for the Qasai or Ansari to work on. While there has been considerable progress in India for the safai karamchari (two of them are MPs) the community in Pakistan and Bangladesh has remained more or less where it was. During the Partition Pogrom of 1948 in Pakistan, the bhangee colonies too were attacked by the rampaging Muslim League mobs thirsting for slaughter, and they fled Karachi, there was a crisis as the sanitation operations ground to a halt (as Karachi like the rest of India still had dry latrines) The matter became so serious that Jinnah had to intervene with the mobs and hold them back, while promising the bhangees their safety. Today in Pakistan (and Bangladesh) a very large proportion of Hindus are sanitation workers. A few of them in Pakistan have over the years embraced Christianity and secured themselves employment in the Pakistan Railways. The Pakistan Army continues to employ many Hindu sanitation workers. Since this is an unglamorous consituency no “Hindu” leader has ever bothered to highlight their existence. As for Pakistan itself the term bhangee is a slur to be cast at all Hindus, and its use says a lot about the bigoted attitude of some Pakistanis (as small as their numbers may be.

    25. George — on 3rd December, 2008 at 7:53 pm  

      The truth is Platinum786′s jibes do have a historical resonance. Why couldn’t the Indians (basically Hindus) preempt attacks despite warnings? They can only react, it seems. How come the Pak outfits (LeT, etc) outsmart the Indians every time? Is there a genetic problem with the Indian’s reflexes and reaction times? I am reminded of what the first Mughal emperor Babur. a highly refined person, said in his Memoirs:
      “Hindustan is a country with few pleasures to recommend it. The people are not handsome. They have no intelligence, no comprehension of mind, no politeness of manner, no kindness or fellow feeling, no ingenuity or mechanical skill in planning or architecture…”

    26. kELvi — on 3rd December, 2008 at 9:13 pm  

      …Babur. a highly refined person…
      He was like most despots of the era, an unlettered and uncouth ruffian who did things to children for fun. Neither Babur nor Akbar could ever read what was written on their behalf. Babur and Co. were writing of a Northern India that had been ravaged by centuries of Turkish rule by the Lodis.

    27. Bert Rustle — on 4th December, 2008 at 8:16 am  

      Small ISI Kashmir Op Morphed into LeT Mumbai Massacre

      … Under directives from Pakistan’s army chief, General Ashfaq Kiani, who was then director general (DG) of the ISI, a low-profile plan was prepared to support Kashmiri militancy. That was normal, even in light of the peace process with India. Although Pakistan had closed down its major operations, it still provided some support to the militants so that the Kashmiri movement would not die down completely.

      After Kiani was promoted to chief of army staff, Lieutenant General Nadeem Taj was placed as DG of the ISI. The external section under him routinely executed the plan of Kiani and trained a few dozen LET militants near Mangla Dam (near the capital Islamabad). They were sent by sea to Gujrat, from where they had to travel to Kashmir to carry out operations.

      Meanwhile, a major reshuffle in the ISI two months ago officially shelved this low-key plan as the country’s whole focus had shifted towards Pakistan’s tribal areas. The director of the external wing was also changed, placing the “game” in the hands of a low-level ISI forward section head (a major) and the LET’s commander-in-chief, Zakiur Rahman.

      Zakiur was in Karachi for two months to personally oversee the plan. However, the militant networks in India and Bangladesh comprising the Harkat, which were now in al-Qaeda’s hands, tailored some changes. Instead of Kashmir, they planned to attack Mumbai, using their existent local networks, with Westerners and the Jewish community center as targets.

      Zakiur and the ISI’s forward section in Karachi, completely disconnected from the top brass, approved the plan under which more than 10 men took Mumbai hostage for nearly three days and successfully established a reign of terror.

      The attack, started from ISI headquarters and fined-tuned by al-Qaeda, has obviously caused outrage across India. The next issue is whether it has the potential to change the course of India’s regional strategy and deter it from participating in NATO plans in Afghanistan. …

    28. Jai — on 4th December, 2008 at 11:03 am  

      “George”,

      Given the fact that, in terms of bloodshed and destruction, the most havoc during the past 1000 years of subcontinental history has been wreaked by visitors from the northwest of the region — and its immediate northern and western neighbours — and that in the present day people of Pakistani origin and descent are causing huge terrorism/jihadi-related problems both “over there” and here in Britain, it’s a really bad idea for you to start making racist insinuations about “basic genetic problems”, as much worse accusations along similar lines could be hurled back in retaliation by those so inclined.

      Stop constantly and deliberately insulting Indians and trying to trigger aggressive counter-responses in order to justify your own desire for conflict under a suitable pretext (“excuse” might be a better term).

      Although if you understand that, you’ll begin to understand why Indians, in the present day and historically, have frequently not believed in engaging in aggressive pre-emptive attacks against potentially hostile foreign forces, and why being “reactive” is a more honourable course of action in such situations. Not everyone in the world believes in the Genghis Khan mode of warfare.

    29. Shamit — on 4th December, 2008 at 11:24 am  

      Jai

      you have far better things to do with your time than respond to someone who is seriously challenged intellectually as well as being very biased. But this guy is getting under my skin as well.

      He obviously fails to realise that there are huge land borders with most of India’s neighbouring countries some of which have become clearly safe houses for those who wish to cause harm to India. And, many state actors are actively supporting them.

      Why India is such a target? Well, it represents everything these terrorists despise. Despite having serious problems, it has been able to maintain multi-party democracy, an actively independent judiciary and an armed forces which do not try to become the God fathers of the nation. And, these with a vast majority of citizens being secular causes headaches to jihadis. Especially, only when a very small fragment of the 160 million odd Muslims in India actually support any form of terrorism in their name.

      What does it also say about the courage of people who hunker down in bunkers and send kids on a killing spree? Why dont they come out in the open and fight? Because they tried it various times in the past 60 years and guess what they lost everytime they tried.

      The Pakistani President has refused to hand over Dawood Ibrahim or anyone for that matter. And Dawood is an Indian citizen. So, is Pakistan really trying to work with India?

      Is George suggesting India adopt the same tactics such as used by ISI and LeT?

    30. fugstar — on 4th December, 2008 at 11:47 am  

      27
      i love the way that indian agencies think that by merely linking proper nouns quite densely together that they build an argument.

    31. Jai — on 4th December, 2008 at 12:41 pm  

      Shamit,

      Excellent points as usual in #29, including some very pertinent questions.

      But this guy is getting under my skin as well.

      Well, like I’ve said before a couple of times, it’s obvious that there are a few commenters on PP with a virulently racist grudge against Indians/Hindus/etc.

      Is George suggesting India adopt the same tactics such as used by ISI and LeT?

      Good question.

      As an alternative, perhaps George would prefer it if India annexed Pakistan, or even launched nuclear strikes against the entire country to “proactively” eliminate any perceived/actual threat completely. Since he’s an admirer of the concept of neutralising perceived enemies by any means necessary, regardless of the cost to innocents, and irrespective of the validity (or lack of it) of your own agenda and motivations.

      Hell, according to that logic, the US should have just nuked the whole of Afghanistan after 9/11, since it had the capability of doing so and this would have taken out OBL, AQ’s core commanders, and their supporters amongst the Taleban. Problem solved. Maybe they should still nuke the entire border region between Pakistan and Afganistan, since OBL is hiding there. Unless George thinks there is also something “genetically wrong” with Americans not doing whatever it takes to defend themselves, regardless of how extreme their actions are. The ends justify the means, right ?

    32. Ashik — on 4th December, 2008 at 12:44 pm  

      Justforfun @17:

      ‘However I don’t think going to full independance for the Valley would be wise. If India was to pull out of the valley and grant independance to the Valley, then the world will see a blood bath as Kashmiris get overrun by dysfuctional Islamists’

      Why don’t you let ordinary Kashmiris decide what they want? Isn’t that what democracy is all about?

      In 1948, and again in 1949, the United Nations examined the region’s status and passed two resolutions; Kashmir’s final status was to be determined by a national plebiscite. This position was supported by BOTH India and Pakistan. This makes Kashmir an international issue.

      The real reason India does not now abide by the UN Resolutions calling for a referendum and self-determination of the Kashmiri people is because they know Kashmiri’s would vote overwhelmingly for independence or alternatively to join with Pakistan if independence were not a choice.

      India would no more permit Kashmir to vote for it’s freedom than Pakistan would for it’s troublesome Balochistan province. This is the starting-point for much of the internal conflicts and sporadic violence we see in both countries.

      If India is unwilling to make major moves in it’s position of Kashmir as an indivisable part of India then India will just have to endure the pattern of violence it has suffered between Hindu and Muslim in the country. In that sense Mumbai cannot be compared to 9/11. The US is not illegally occupying and oppressing the people in one of it’s fifty states.

      Other than being caught on Western media because Westerner’s were targetted, this incident seems little different than a string of others and the Indian response will probably be more of the ‘blame the other’ style. India needs to think outside the box in dealing with it’s disaffected Muslim population and dealing with Kashmir.

    33. Ashik — on 4th December, 2008 at 12:52 pm  

      Jai:

      ‘Well, like I’ve said before a couple of times, it’s obvious that there are a few commenters on PP with a virulently racist grudge against Indians/Hindus/etc’.

      You can rest assured that a larger number of commentators with a virulent and racist grudge against Islam/Muslim South Asians etc also operate on PP. Hence the frequent threads on Islam and Muslims on PP exhibiting universal hostility. A couple of posters are ex-Muslims and are shown plenty of bonhomie by Indians, Hindus, and Sikhs as they launch their bile against us.

      Fug has it spot on.

    34. Jai — on 4th December, 2008 at 12:53 pm  

      Shamit,

      To be honest with you, we both know that my last two paragraphs in #31 were rhetorical. George is just being disingenuous in this thread and several others during the past few weeks, and is no doubt well aware of the immorality of his motivations and some of the logical fallacies involved in his arguments. Unless the guy really is that thick or blinded by hatred.

    35. Jai — on 4th December, 2008 at 1:09 pm  

      Ashik,

      Trust me, if many of the non-Muslims on PP really supported unjustified hatred and bile against Islam/Muslim South Asians, they’d be screaming for the massacre of Muslims in India in retaliation for the recent events in Mumbai and/or their expulsion en masse to Pakistan, along with supporting “wiping out” Pakistan and making all kinds of really horrific comments about Islam and Muslims in general. It would be much, much worse than the behaviour you think you’ve seen.

      The number of commenters (especially those from a South Asian background) who have indeed made such remarks, both recently and historically, has been very small, and those who have engaged in such bigotry have frequently been attacked by non-Muslim commenters, including some of the “ex-Muslims” you have mentioned.

      This isn’t exactly an anti-Muslim/anti-Islam/anti-Pakistan hate site, although unfortunately such poisonous websites do exist elsewhere on the internet as I’m sure you already know.

    36. Shamit — on 4th December, 2008 at 1:19 pm  

      Jai

      I completely agree with your sentiments @34.

      But again you know as they say common sense is not common to all and obviously it has not been anywhere very near to Mr. George. But you cant prosecute idiots - shame

      ******************************************

      Ashik - good post @32.

      I agree with you to a large extent especially with the fact that niether India nor Pakistan or for that matter any South Asian country would let any part of their respective territorries go.

      In fact this fear of domino effect has soured the relationship between India and Bangladesh — right after 1971. And, India simply did not want Bangladesh to be an inspiration to any group in India. And, that manifested into heavy handed approach which got rightly rebuffed and since then its been friendly yet not very trusting.

      Considering the economic and security plight currently facing Pakistan wouldn’t it be best for Pakistan to accept the current borders in Kashmir? That would help Pakistan. But why is that not happening? Because the Indian State is ready to move on and have been under successive governments.

      But India does need to look at home issues without a doubt. You cannot continue to have an India which is split into two with almost no connection with each other. One that has got education and opportunities while the others while benefiting from the boom still lack access to those key rights.

      But once again good post.

    37. Shamit — on 4th December, 2008 at 1:32 pm  

      “This isn’t exactly an anti-Muslim/anti-Islam/anti-Pakistan hate site, although unfortunately such poisonous websites do exist elsewhere on the internet as I’m sure you already know.”

      I like especially those ones who put on a moderate facade when they are on PP and while on those sites you refer to — they are picture perfect haters of anyone who happen to belong to a particular religion, country etc etc. We all know who we are talking about.

      But no one can really call PP anything but moderate, thoughtful and usually united against bigotry and racism and divisions we could do without.

      There is a common bond of humanity that binds us all — and humanity faces grave challenges not any particular race or religious group.

      Whether its the economic crisis or the climate change or too many children still being abused (raped, killed or forced to become a soldier/killing machine) these challenges do pose threats to the way we live. The terrorists did not make any distinction between Hindus or Muslims — they just killed.

    38. Jai — on 4th December, 2008 at 4:30 pm  

      I like especially those ones who put on a moderate facade when they are on PP and while on those sites you refer to — they are picture perfect haters of anyone who happen to belong to a particular religion, country etc etc. We all know who we are talking about.

      Agreed. For example, I think that a certain someone ranting about “Hindu dogs”, “the gutter next door”, “pahenchhods”, “motherfuckers”, and (in relation to Jewish victims of the Holocaust) “cockroaches” probably isn’t going to do himself any favours in relation to other people’s perceptions of his own state of mind or motivations for criticising members of the aforementioned religions, country etc in any given discussion.

      Especially when he subsequently starts complaining that “some people” are attempting to malign him or misrepresent his opinions.

    39. SE — on 21st April, 2009 at 7:58 pm  

      Agreed:
      Got to the fascist source: “Great” britain.

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