A few dates for the diary


by Rohin
24th January, 2006 at 8:47 pm    

OK, this is an half-excuse to ask if anyone saw ‘Gay Muslims‘ last night? The latest in the superb ‘Can You Believe It‘ category. My Mum watched and she found it pretty surprising and quite sad. Sad because several of the people featured had had really awful experiences from Muslim friends and relatives telling them they will burn in hell etc. Surprising because some of them said that their religion was the most important thing to them.

In a rather gay coincidence, it was also the day SIR (who knighted him again?) Iqbal Sacranie learnt that he won’t face charges for branding homosexuality as “harmful” and “unnatural”. In a statement, the MCB said:

“To be honest, we thought it somewhat surprised when we heard that Sir Iqbal was being investigated by the police for merely articulating the mainstream Islamic viewpoint about homosexuality.”

In about 50 minutes, inspirational iconoclast, courageous heroine and let’s face it, Islamophobia’s pin-up girl, Ayaan Hirsi Ali will be interviewed on Radio 4. I heard most this morning and it makes for some pretty interesting listening. Especially where she explains how she wanted Salman Rushdie dead when The Satanic Verses first came out. She has led a unique life, that’s for sure. The bits about how her life has changed since the death of Theo van Gogh are shocking. More power to her.

Listen again here.

Thursday on Channel 4 is the real life Munich, Mossad’s Revenge.

And January 29th is Chinese New Year! (save the gong hais for the weekend, ok?)


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  1. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 24th January, 2006 at 9:38 pm  

    I dont really understand Muslimg gays. The Quran/religious text is clearly against them, the hadiths mock them and the Muslim community is especially homophobic. I guess its not that crazy as they have Nazi Jews in Israel these days!

  2. Jay Singh — on 24th January, 2006 at 9:48 pm  

    I guess its not that crazy as they have Nazi Jews in Israel these days!

    Really? Who would they be?

  3. Bikhair — on 24th January, 2006 at 10:14 pm  

    Rohin,

    “More power to her.”

    Rather more guidance to her. I read somewhere where she said that Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) was a licentious man. A very strange thing coming from a woman who lives in a society, and wants to uphold the culture of that society that openly allows gays to marry, women to be prostitutes and allows for drug dens to function with permission from the state.

    Perhaps she should use the same standards she judges the Messenger and apply them to her society. SHe will not because there is always something more odious about Arab/Oriental sex.

    “Sad because several of the people featured had had really awful experiences from Muslim friends and relatives telling them they will burn in hell etc.”

    Muslims should first understand the commiting an act of homosexuality isnt kufr-disbelief, which will not be forgiven as the Quran states, but rather is is an act of disobedience to Allah that is punishable with death, according to the Sharia. These Muslim parents and friends should comdemn zina between man and woman as they would homo sex as both are worthy of punishment. It is haram to tell another Muslim they are going to hell because that is knowledge only Allah has. If you claim to have knowledge of the unseen in Islam, that is a very bag thing and in some instances may take you out of the fold of Islam. Allah knows best.

  4. Sunny — on 24th January, 2006 at 10:19 pm  

    A very strange thing coming from a woman who lives in a society, and wants to uphold the culture of that society that openly allows gays to marry, women to be prostitutes and allows for drug dens to function with permission from the state.

    Funny that Bikhair, because the same would apply to America (except for the coffee shops bit). And also funny that these liberal countries have better records on human rights and religious tolerance than any so-called Muslim country. What does that say about the Middle East?

    Secondly, it also isn’t strange because Ali escaped Somalia from sexual abuse and female genital mutilation in that country, practiced by her Muslim community there. The fact that Netherlands offered her sanctuary and protection from abuse is to be celebrated, not ridiculed. If anything, it is the community she has run away that deserves contempt.

  5. Bikhair — on 24th January, 2006 at 10:19 pm  

    Al Mujahil for debauchery,

    “I dont really understand Muslimg gays. The Quran/religious text is clearly against them, the hadiths mock them and the Muslim community is especially homophobic.”

    Worse is the fate of those who associate partners with Allah, namely the Mushrik. Homosexuality can be forgive, shirk cannot. So many Muslims today dont even know that they practice shirk. ITs strange.

  6. Rohin — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:14 pm  

    Please, can we all make a pact to ignore Bikhair? A friend called me today and asked about that annoying girl who everyone hates on PP, “what’s her name? Bee-hair?”

    More than anything, it’s the way she starts off posts with “Pickled Punks/Pansies etc” Oh gosh, it’s so funny. So funny. O my sides. Please, please help. It’s too funny. And it gets funnier everytime. Is there no end to this woman’s comedy stylings? My goodness, what a comedienne. My stars.

  7. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:26 pm  

    “Worse is the fate of those who associate partners with Allah, namely the Mushrik. Homosexuality can be forgive, shirk cannot.”

    That is very true.

    However to infer from the above that the homosexuals are as disadvantaged in Islam as the mushriks would not be entirely correct.

    The Shirk doer can refrain from practicing Shirk because the practice of shirk is usually out of ignorance/lack of knowledge, easily avoidable and not a big part of ones identity, while your sexuality is one of the most important components of a human life and one cannot live a wholesome life when one is prevented from being in a loving relationship with your mate.

  8. jamal — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:41 pm  

    “Gay Muslims”!!??!!

    These two words just do not go together in my mind as based on the Qur’an, homosexuality is an act worthy of a grave punishment such as death. Furthermore, we are all aware of Islamic opinions such as the valid claim of the MCB that “homosexuality is immoral”, so when will we stop hearing these corruptive statements such as ‘Gay Muslims’? In my opinion, it is a clear contradiction for a people to claim to be Gay Muslims while categorising themselves with a sin worthy of death according to Islam. I am in agreement with a comment I have read on the MPACUK debate regarding the programme, which considers it to be a “muck-raking” attempt on Islam. Another commentator has hit the nail on the head by saying; “Muslim Gays, thats like saying heterosexual homosexuals, or white blacks, or cholocate hating chocolate eaters”.

    This documentary on gays labelled as ‘ground-breaking’, was slammed by homosexuals who released a press release stating;

    “Contrary to the angle of the documentary most of the LGBT Muslim community do not lead “Tortuous, secret lives” but are happy balanced individuals who are supported by a growing LGBT Muslim community and increasingly by the wider gay AND Muslim communities in this country and abroad.”

    However, while this is a very insightful statement they appear to have ignored that this “balance” and “support” referred to is in clear contradiction to the Qur’an. I do not see how they can consider themselves to be “balanced” and “supported” when they commit sin (homosexuality) with disregard for the same religion they claim to adhere to, which unequivically disallows homosexuality. If they commit sin and acknowledge it as wrong by repenting and seeking forgiveness then that is one thing. However, it is an entire different ballgame if they seek to regard homosexuality as acceptable and permissible, while promoting homosexuality as acceptable and permissible. Such activity is a blatent disregard of the ruling of Allah as stated in the Qur’an and Sunnah, which regards homosexuality as unacceptable. Islam is not a ‘pick and choose’ religion and the Qur’an refers to homosexuality as unacceptable in many verses.

  9. Jay Singh — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:44 pm  

    jamal

    I totally understand that Islam is inimical to homosexuality – just like every other religion is. According to orthodox Sikhism it is frowned upon and looked down upon too.

    It’s the bit where you say that it is punishable by death that gets people worried. I dont think anything should be punishable by death, and you step close to incitement in my eye when you say that. Are you saying it would be acceptable for homosexuals of a Muslim background to be killed?

  10. Col. Mustafa — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:45 pm  

    hehehehe, oh great.

    I like the pickled potheads one that she comes out with.

  11. Sunny — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:49 pm  

    Jamal – I’m sure Islam and pre-marital sex, Islam and girlfriends, Islam and drinking, Islam and lots of other stuff also don’t go together. but funnily enough most young Muslims are not too concerned by that.

    Its because homosexuality makes such an easy target, all this self-righteous rubbish comes out. I think the comments on your blog regarding this topic already make the point.

  12. jamal — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:51 pm  

    Based on Quran and Sunnah… yes.

    This verse refers to a death penalty awarded to homosexuals.

    “”And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!” (7:84).

    There is a hadith that say homosexuals should be treated as adulturer. and another that say that if a man is guilty of adultry, stone him to death.

    This article may intrest you. its a case of homosexuals being hanged in iran.

    http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49597

  13. Jay Singh — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:53 pm  

    Sikhs and Hindus who happen to be gay or lesbian also face discrimination from their own communities and families.

  14. Jay Singh — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:56 pm  

    jamal

    So you support the killing of practising gay and lesbian Muslims?

    Jamal, this is one of those instances when you just come across as deranged and disturbed – this is such a nasty and horrible thing to say and believe, such an inhuman and cruel thing to promote.

    I wonder if you are breaking any laws too, by calling for gay Muslims to be killed – could any lawyers on here tell us if this constitutes incitement to commit a crime or incitement to hate?

  15. jamal — on 24th January, 2006 at 11:59 pm  

    sunny.. yes those other bits are missed. homosexuality is focused on more then others which is unfair, i agree. but then maybe part of it is because the homosexuals want to shout “muslim and gay” and promote it to the world. when they are told it is wrong they want to argue againsts it. however, if you tell a person fornicating, drinking, etc, that it is wrong, generaly they will agree with it.

    similarly, gays used to accept it as wrong but now this big gay campaign against religions has caused them to change their perspective. gays are going after islam as they did chistianity. the difference being that i cant see islam bowing as christianity did.

    nevertheless, muslim that commit gay acts have the choice to follow Allah and accept it as wrong, or follow gay rights activits and proclaim it to be okay. if they are muslim then they have a duty to follow the former choice. its really as simple as that.

  16. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:02 am  

    jay singh… i didnt call for gays to be killed. get it right. however, if gays live where shariah law is implemewnted and puts them at risk of death. i would advise them to follow what islam prescribes and to stop committing homosexuals acts. i would give the same advice to a rapist or murderer in the US risking the death penalty for his behaviour.

  17. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:03 am  

    Maybe Muslims who are gay should just leave Islam – whoops! Doesnt that have a death sentence too?

    Jamal, has anyone told the Pashto men about this?

  18. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:05 am  

    jamal

    so if I say that Muslims who live in a non Muslim country shold be killed for some infraction of the law of that land, but dont reccoment it myself, that would be OK?

    So you say that its good to kill gays but you’re not reccomending it – great. It’s like a man who farts and says “I didnt fart”.

  19. Siddharth — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:06 am  

    A gay Muslim mate of mine is putting the final touches on the research for a film he is applying to make for More4 called ‘Short and Muslim’. Its a documentary style look at the lives of 3 separate people who are short and, yes, Muslim. Some of them even want to remain short and Muslim at the same time in spite of terrible and cruel persecution they’ve had at the hands of gay dwarves within the Muslim community.

  20. Mokum — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:07 am  

    And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)

    Coming soon to you, jamal, inshallah.

    because the homosexuals want to shout “muslim and gay” and promote it to the world

    And you call for their death. Sick.

    you tell a person fornicating, drinking, etc, that it is wrong, generaly they will agree with it

    Tell Dubai.

    Idiot.

  21. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:07 am  

    “similarly, gays used to accept it as wrong but now this big gay campaign against religions has caused them to change their perspective. gays are going after islam as they did chistianity. the difference being that i cant see islam bowing as christianity did.”

    Gay’s used to accept it as wrong because they were told that is was wrong.
    But now they’ve realised that its not wrong, which is why there saying why can’t they be gay and have the same beliefs as you in one God and islam.
    There not a global conspiracy out to get islam with all guns blazing or anything.
    They just don’t want to be HUNG whenever they admit that thier gay.

    That case of the 2 boys being hung is too much in my eyes.
    Whether they raped the 13 yr old boy or not they shouldn’t be hung for it, thats just disgusting.

  22. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:09 am  

    That film sounds quite interesting and insane sid.

  23. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:12 am  

    Sid – it sounds like a David Lynch movie

  24. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:14 am  

    jay singh.. since there is no death sentence here in the UK, your emphasis invalid. the point is that homosexuality is not allowed in Islam. it is a sin considered punishable by death by Quran and Sunah. based on this, a muslim should no be acting in such a way and if they are they shou,d stop it.

    personally, i would not say that “its good to kill gays” or anyone else for that matter. however, if a person (muslim or otherwise) live where certain acts/crimes are punishable by death then it is obviously in their intrest to stop it. whether i recommend the punishment or not is irrelavant.

  25. Mokum — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:15 am  

    whether i recommend the punishment or not is irrelavant

    Or, how Islam is ruined.

  26. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:17 am  

    Jamal

    You are an amateur in the art of sophistry mate, give it up.

  27. Siddharth — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:17 am  

    Jamal – you may need to legislate gay Muslims off the face of the earth – but if won’t mean anything. You might as well legislate against short Muslims – its that widespread!

  28. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:17 am  

    I am not sure if Jamal is serious or putting on a show for us.

    I dont care if there is a Sharia system or not, no one should be put to death for being gay.

    As far as Islam goes, his reference to the Quranic verse is not about punishment which is to be administered by the state but Gods punishment on a city for reasons more than mere homosexuality.

    There are also hadiths which say that gays should be left alone or asked to leave the city.

    A lot of the misogynist, homophobic hadiths are creations of backward clerics and are not properly sourced.

    If the ultimate goal of the Islamists is to make a sharia state in the whole world, gays would have nowhere to run.

    I am sure no decent minded person would want an innocent gay man killed.

  29. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:19 am  

    “however, if a person (muslim or otherwise) live where certain acts/crimes are punishable by death then it is obviously in their intrest to stop it. whether i recommend the punishment or not is irrelavant”

    and it is our responsibility as decent co-citizens to make sure that such discriminatory laws are changed.

  30. Siddharth — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:20 am  

    you might even have a gay, or even a short, relative to you closer to u than u think.

  31. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:21 am  

    Or a short gay relative.

  32. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:22 am  

    yep, that film sounds intresting!

    Mokum.. if you are telling me that i am wrong, i suggest you refer to the Qur’an and realise that you are actually refuting Allah. this is your choice, so if you want to represent the sinners over Allah, that is your perogertive.

    Col. Mustafa.. obviously when it come to iran, much of what they do is questionable. gay people can be gay and have the same beliefs as me or any other muslim. the point i make, as many others do, is that homosexuality is wrong according to Islam. therefore it is wrong to attribute the act to islam by calling themself a gay muslim. furthermore, if muslim means to surrender oneself to Allah, they are not actually doing this while committing gay acts and proclaiming to be gay. in fact they are committing an act that Allah considers punishable by death.

  33. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:25 am  

    Jamal:
    Who made you the judge, jury and the executioner?
    Leave some things to God.
    You are not Al-Aleem.

  34. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:27 am  

    “furthermore, if muslim means to surrender oneself to Allah, they are not actually doing this while committing gay acts and proclaiming to be gay.”

    How many muslims surrender themselves to Allah is more the question?
    As in in this day and age out of all the muslims that go around being proud that thier muslim, i doubt many have surrended themselves fully to Allah.
    So why is so bad if there gay and they do that.
    I understand that its the gays going around saying that thier gay and muslim and telling everyone.
    But who cares, seriously why do the people care so much, there not hurting anyone.

  35. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:28 am  

    “and it is our responsibility as decent co-citizens to make sure that such discriminatory laws are changed.”

    no it is not our responsibility, and whether it is discriminitory is arguable. these verse you have questioned is unequivical, homosexually was punished by death as it was unacceptable. many times in the Qur’an does Allah refer to right and wrong by referring to what punishment he incurred on a previous people.. do you not agree. hadiths will support such a punishment and similar ones, and as you said, they may also be required to leave. the point is that all these “punishments” support the opinion expressed by myself that homosexuality is wrong.

  36. Mokum — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:29 am  

    jamal, your divisive and violent (death for gays) approach to life is so unholy that I think Allah has plans for you.

    But it is never too late to change.

    if muslim means to surrender oneself to Allah, they are not actually doing this while committing gay acts

    Hey, you could be a subversive gay porn copywriter!

    when it come to iran, much of what they do is questionable

    Questionable?! ?

  37. Sunny — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:39 am  

    Jamal – it isn’t “unfortunate” that people focus on gays, they do it because the rest of their morals are so lax that they need to “prove” to themselves and others that they’re Muslim by condemning someone, usually gay.

    Isn’t it funny that the biggest religious idiots are the ones condemning others (HuT, Al-M boys come to mind) while the best people are the ones who quietly follow their religion and don’t judge others.

    When someone goes around judging others it makes me laugh because I automatically know their own beliefs are so weak they try to hide their insecurity by judging others.

    Is it any wonder so many people oppose Sharia because its implementation anywhere means people get arbitarily condemned to death for not following some self-righteous idiot.

  38. Sunny — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:40 am  

    By the way, that quote you provided can be interpreted in so many different ways. Its your own interpretation that it refers to homosexuals. So I’m not suprised many gay Muslims still see themselves as Muslim.

  39. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:41 am  

    Jamal,

    Immediately after the death of the prophet, no sahabi of Muhammad could quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to the question of what to do with individuals guilty of “liwat/lutiyya”.
    The hadiths which you will probably refer to came much later and are of questionable authenticity.

    You have also seem to have a profound misunderstanding of the Quran verses regarding homosexuality.
    Apart from ignoring the new found evidence which suggests that Lot was destroyed for reasons more than homosexuality, you have also ignored the fact that no specific punishments are prescribed for homoesexuality in the Quran.

  40. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:49 am  

    Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery, I dont know what evidence you are referring to, but at this moment in time, according to the Qur’an, the people of lut were wiped out for their homosexual acts. based on this, to then consider such acts acceptable should be considered a mistake and a trangression of what is written in the Qur’an. furthermore, i am one to accept authenticity problems with hadith due to the acknowledged reasons we dont need to go into here. however, the fact remains that the ones i refer to do not refuute the quran but correlate with it. it is you that are actually refuting the quran by arguing for homosexuality.

    “Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!” (26:165-166)… …”Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!” (27:55)… …”For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” (7:81)… …”And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!” (7:84).

  41. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:57 am  

    Sunny, it is a weak argument to sling that those that condemn others are weak in faith and those that are quiet are strong in faith.

    this is a generalising arguement as people of a range of piety will tell you homosexuality is wrong, not just those that are weak in faith, just as not all those strong in faith will ignore wrongdoing.

    Some may focus on gays as they are lax in other areas or just want to condemn/judge another, something i do not recommend. however the fact remins that if homosexuality is wrong, then it is wrong. to put it under a wider umbrella, sexual intercouses within marriage is acceptable in Islam and anything else is not. many will tell you this, it does not mean they are judge mental. it may be that they want to correct others, clarify the ruling of islam and prevent others fromcommitting sin. forewarned is forearmed.

    Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said: “When you see an evil act you have to stop it with your hand. If you can’t, then at least speak out against it with your tongue. If you can’t, then at least you have to hate it with all your heart. And this is the weakest of faith.”

  42. Mokum — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:59 am  

    Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime

    Please apply this to your own life, you preacher of murder.

    at this moment in time, according to the Qur’an, the people of lut were wiped out for their homosexual acts

    And you say “yeah, OK”.

    “The transition from, let’s say, pre-modern to modern, is something that Judaism and Christianity have gone through and that transition is something that Islam is experiencing right now.”I have come to the conclusion that Islam can and should be reformed if Muslims want to live at peace… that’s why I need the freedom of expression… for other Muslims to think that through.”

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

    Hup Holland and ma salaama :-)

  43. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:06 am  

    Mokum.. is that not a quote from the dutch filmmakers assistant that suports homosexuality. if it is so then i am not surprised this is her view. intrestingly, by her view she accepts that islam does not accept such acts and therefore is why she waits for change. the problem being that Allah has already said in the Qur’an “this day i have perfected your religion” (5:3), and homosexuality was not part of it. no change can come to accept homosexuality in islam. if this woman wants to express herself by trangressing islam, then this is her choice. however, she must and will acknowledge that islam must not change to accomodate her behaviour, but it is she that must accomodate her behaviour to accomodate islam.

  44. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:07 am  

    “When you see an evil act you have to stop it with your hand. If you can’t, then at least speak out against it with your tongue. If you can’t, then at least you have to hate it with all your heart. And this is the weakest of faith.”

    I see an evil act when muslims i know say gays should be killed.
    Im supposed to stop it; hence using my tongue.
    I know im not the prophet so it doesn’t matter what i think.

    I have to say those quotes from the Quran have disturbed me in a very wierd way.
    The gay/islam issue is too deeply embedded in muslims to think a certain way, so theres no point.

  45. Mokum — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:11 am  

    she must and will acknowledge that islam must not change to accomodate her behaviour

    Um, no. She has a different opinion, alhamdulilah.

    Find some mercy and kindness in your heart. Allah will reward you.

  46. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:15 am  

    “Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!” (26:165-166)… …”Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!” (27:55)… …”For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” (7:81)… …”And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!” (7:84).”

    Col. Mustafa, personally i do not say “should be killed”, i say they are committing an act worthy of death according to the Quran and sunnah. the above shows that it is a sin and the punishment for it has been death.

    I assume that all, many, most or some religious books/scripture include some form of grave punishment for particular sins/acts. my opinion is that if this is what your religion says then you should believe in it and follow it. this does not mean you should hang your gay neighbour, but it does mean that you should not support such acts. i accept that for some such a view is difficult to understand, but then there are many things in other religions and cultures that i find it hard to understand also, but respect it as their view and way.

  47. jamal — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:20 am  

    mokum… you are saying “alhamdulilah” that she disagrees with the Qur’an and thinks that what is written according to Allah is wrong and should therefore change. that in itself is a contradiction. it is your choice to agree with those that disagree with Allah. i am not of the same opinion and rather to agree with Allah.

  48. Mokum — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:31 am  

    Jamal, yes, I think Allah is greatly misunderstood. If you claim him, so will I , and many more with me.

    If you think a few scribes got it all right, centuries ago, almost all of them Muslim and just an historical few Jewish and Christian (but slow to learn, natch), there is nothing more to talk about, and

    you are a fundamentalist. And a fool.

    Get with God, if you must be there. Stop being simple. Love your brothers and sisters, all of ‘em.

  49. Old Pickler — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:57 am  

    Unfortunately, because there has been no reformation in Islam, Jamal’s perspective :

    Allah has already said in the Qur’an “this day i have perfected your religion” (5:3), and homosexuality was not part of it. no change can come to accept homosexuality in islam.

    is more representative of “mainstream Islam”, ie the Islam that most Muslims – and Muslim “”scholars” accept, than is the enlightened view here at PP.

    “Islamophobia’s pin-up girl, Ayaan Hirsi Ali ” – of course this was meant to be flippant. But many a true word is spoken in jest.

    She’s black, so you can’t call her a racist, she’s from Somalia, so it’s really confusing when she -rightly – criticises backward cultures like her own and backward religions like Islam, but you can’t call her imperialist because she’s from Somalia. And she’s pretty. Now that really is confusing, because someone with strong views about Muslim men really ought to be an ugly old trout. It couldn’t possibly be that she’s right, now could it?

  50. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 3:07 am  

    Old Pickler,

    “She’s black, so you can’t call her a racist…”

    Ofcourse you can, but she isnt nor is that the issue. But with so many non-Arab renegades of Islam, they generally tend to have grudges against Arabs. Ha Ha Ha…

    ” criticises backward cultures like her own and backward religions like Islam, but you can’t call her imperialist because she’s from Somalia.”

    She can criticise all shes wants but for those who have a little knowledge about Islam we can divorce Somali Jahiliyah and bidah from what is Islamic. She cannot nor can she, but contends that everything bad that happens to women in her country or in the Muslim world can directly be related to the example Prophet Muhammed left behind and the understnading of his companions.

    If she wants to say a woman without a clitoris in the way, she gots to prove it. Forced marriages is the only acceptable marriage and that every Muslim woman has to be forced as a matter of following the Sharia, she has got to prove that too. Women being abused by their men, to the point of either death or serious injury… Prophet Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) had many wives and daughters, pick one or all and check his relationship with them. Prophet Muhammed told the Muslims of his day he would be the best towards his wives, so since he sets the precedence, ask the darling to make the connection.

    “Now that really is confusing, because someone with strong views about Muslim men really ought to be an ugly old trout.”

    If she is mad at her folks she should take it out on them.

    Right now my arm is tired OP, came back again for another arse whoppin. LOL….

  51. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:21 am  

    Sunny,

    First off, I just wanted to say that you shouldnt lament the percieved superiority of the Arab in everything Islam when the opinions of a non Arab convert is so readily dismissed.

    “Funny that Bikhair, because the same would apply to America (except for the coffee shops bit). And also funny that these liberal countries have better records on human rights and religious tolerance than any so-called Muslim country. What does that say about the Middle East?”

    I dont know what the above has anything to do with what I said?

    “Secondly, it also isn’t strange because Ali escaped Somalia from sexual abuse and female genital mutilation in that country, practiced by her Muslim community there.”

    My beef isnt that she escaped oppression my beef is that she is relating this oppression to Islam and Prophet Muhammed.

    “If anything, it is the community she has run away that deserves contempt.”

    Sunny you know me. You know I dont have a problem with having contempt for Muslims. I am criticised for having contempt for their practice of Islam. Difference is I dont associate their jahililyah with Islam. In fact I consider it a rejection of Islam. Hirsi Ali doesnt do the same. Instead, like I mentioned in my original post, everything that happened to her, and everything that happens to Muslim women in her new country, her old country, and Muslim countries all over the world, is the fault of Islam, its practice, its preservation among the Muslims, and Prophet Muhammed.

    I, like any Muslim who is willing, and who isnt obligated to the traditions of their forefathers, can compare the actions of Muslims to that of the Prophet, the words of the Quran and the understanding of those Muslims who ran with His Noble Messenger.

    So when I hear about Muslim women being set ablaze in Pakistan on suspicion of zina, or sentenced to being raped by a gang of people because of something her brother did, I can loudly and correctly say “WTF where do you get the authority for that shit?”

    But what does it matter, after all I aint no Arab.

  52. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:24 am  

    Rohin,

    “Please, can we all make a pact to ignore Bikhair?”

    The progressive thing to do would be to challenge my ideas. Girl, I can tell your values run deep. Skin deep that is.

  53. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:27 am  

    Jamal,

    “sunny.. yes those other bits are missed. homosexuality is focused on more then others which is unfair, i agree. but then maybe part of it is because the homosexuals want to shout “muslim and gay” and promote it to the world.”

    My brother, thats rubbish. ( I am getting this English thing down pretty well.) Muslims and others peoples are esepcially sensitive to homosexuality because gay sex is gross.

  54. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:31 am  

    Sunny,

    Another thing, if she used the same standards to judge the sexual proclivities of the Arab Prophet with the Hebrew Patriarchs, she would probabaly come to the same conclusion as they had as many, if not more wives, and concubines. She will not because she has alliances to maintain.

    Peace out!

  55. Sunny — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:55 am  

    Bikhair – But she’s not actually railing against the religion. Ali is also railing against how its practised. Arab or not, she has a point.

    Jamal – the point about insecure Muslim stands. I and others can see it blatantly…. its only the insecure ones who can’t.

  56. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 5:11 am  

    Sunny,

    Muslims should feel insecure. Shaitan is an avowed enemy to us. He wants to corrupt us and make us slaves to him. We should be very fearful as we are weak and disobidient by nature.

    “Bikhair – But she’s not actually railing against the religion. Ali is also railing against how its practised. Arab or not, she has a point.”

    Dont lie to me.

  57. David T — on 25th January, 2006 at 9:20 am  

    Jamal wrote:

    This documentary on gays labelled as ‘ground-breaking’, was slammed by homosexuals who released a press release stating;

    “Contrary to the angle of the documentary most of the LGBT Muslim community do not lead “Tortuous, secret lives” but are happy balanced individuals who are supported by a growing LGBT Muslim community and increasingly by the wider gay AND Muslim communities in this country and abroad.”

    Yup, I wrote the following in a comment on HP about Imaan’s odd response.

    I’d agree with that sentiment in principle. There is a lazy tendency to portray gays and other minorities as tragic and weak. In any case, the start of the process of becoming strong is a simple refusal to be cowed.

    That said, I understand that the participants in the Channel 4 programme hid their faces or were pixellated out. Indeed, the Chair of Imaan only agreed to be interviewed if she was permitted to wear a full burqa obscuring her face, that they used a false name and electronically altered her voice.

    Similarly, and depressingly, the only pictures on the Imaan site of their events also obscure the faces of members. The picture at the bottom shows the Chair of Imaan in the middle.

    I would have thought that, semiotically, pixellation etc. was a pretty powerful signifier of wretchedness and weakness.

  58. Don — on 25th January, 2006 at 10:30 am  

    Two comments on rendition, 57 on gays.

  59. Jai — on 25th January, 2006 at 11:51 am  

    Bikhair,

    =>Shaitan is an avowed enemy to us. He wants to corrupt us and make us slaves to him. We should be very fearful as we are weak and disobidient by nature…….Dont lie to me.”

    I’m afraid you’re believing multiple lies already.

    1. There is no “Shaitan”. The only “demons” you really have to worry about are your own — with regards to ego, anger, excessive/inappropriate lust, greed, and excessive attachment. “Ego” is the worst and most dangerous of all.

    As humans, we have to take responsible for our own individual corruption — there is no “Shaitan” tricking us or attempting to “force” us into committing evil acts.

    2. =>”We should be very fearful as we are weak and disobidient by nature”

    That’s a very cynical and somewhat paranoid view of human nature — it assumes that people do not have the strength and integrity to be able to regulate their own behaviour without being forced into submission. This view is also false.

    But you are of course free to believe whatever you want to. If you want to waste the rest of your life believing in lies, then go right ahead.

  60. Saggal — on 25th January, 2006 at 12:57 pm  

    As a Somali, I know and can say that Somalia is full of Jahiliyah practices that have nothing to do with Islam at all, practices that are infact anti-Islam like FGM and forced marriages. The men are also mostly misogynists but that goes for the whole of Africa not just Somalia.

    Ayan Hirsi Ali attended the same school in Nairobi as my sister and even then she was well known for mischief making and generally creating chaos wherever she went, she was always fighting her teachers. She thinks she has changed but she hasn’t, she has only transferred her problems to that poor country, Holland.

  61. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:12 pm  

    she has only transferred her problems to that poor country, Holland.

    What is so poor about Holland? I think it is great country – land of Erasmus, Spinoza, Vermeer, Rembrandt, Van Gogh (Vincent and Theo), Johan Cruyff, Marco Van Basten, Tulips and Amsterdam.

    Holland is not a poor country, it is rich – rich with culture, civilisation and art, philosophy, football and great liberal traditions of tolerance and democracy.

    Holland should be considered poor for having people like Mohammad Bouyeri in it, not Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

    Not that I know enough about her to appreciate her stance on every issue, but I know that anyone who views her as somehow being of greater ‘trouble’ than the people who want her dead, silenced and buried, suffers from a really worrying case of myopia and lack of perspective.

  62. Saggal — on 25th January, 2006 at 1:52 pm  

    Jay,

    LOL, you took my comment literally.

    “…anyone who views her as somehow being of greater ‘trouble’ than the people who want her dead, silenced and buried, suffers from a really worrying case of myopia and lack of perspective. ”

    I wish her no harm and abhor threaths of any kind on people’s lives.

    “Not that I know enough about her to appreciate her stance on every issue”

    Jay –People in the West tend to be too easily impressed by people like Hirsi because they genuinely believe she is telling them something they did not know about an alien culture which they perceive to be problematic and in need of sorting out. But to all those that take pride in their impartiality and commitment to social justice and liberty for all, and I’d put you in this category Jay, all I ask is for them to examine closely Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s politics and you will see very quickly that they are a carbon copy of the politics that destroyed Somalia. In other words, instead of her politics being inclusive of all society and progressive and focussing on improving literacy rates and academic achievements among the disadvantaged communites in that country so that the practices she so bitterly complains about are eventually eradicated, she is more interested in divisive politics, all that she is saying is that some groups in Holland (Immigrant and Muslim) are backward and should be forced to change their ways, their schools shut down etc, etc, even mosques. Visit any website that has the history of Somalia and you’ll see this is exactly what was done in Somalia culminating in the eventual disintegration of that country.

    She has brought the old and backward Somali politics as practised by her relatives back home (and I mean her real close relatives) to Holland, only difference is, she is speaking Dutch instead of Somali. Ask any Somali and they’ll tell you it’s her kind of politics that destroyed Somalia.

    Like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, my family ran away from Somalia and built a new life in Britain. I am proud to be British and proud of the British multicultural model even if it is not perfect, I want to integrate and contribute to the development of this country and believe I am doing that already….I don’t think I’d be saying this if I lived in Holland.

  63. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:26 pm  

    You cannot have sex with another male and be muslim.

    You cannot do recreational drugs and be a muslim.

    You cannot take the lords name in vain and be a muslim.

    You cannot drown your sorrows in a litre of vodka whilst singing songs about wooing women in different ways and taking them home from a club and be a muslim.

    You cannot fuck a rabbit and be a muslim. Dammit.

    You cannot abuse your wife and your children and then still go down the mosque and pray. Actually i think thats allowed im not sure.

    It seems like being a muslim is like joining a very exclusive group within a group.
    For the many that are born muslims, they are not muslims yet.
    They have not proved themselves.

    As time goes on they begin to start thier lives and every path they take is leading them either to the one true bar where only a minority of like minded true muslims meet and discuss the intricate workings of how all the others are not actually muslim.
    But they all agree that we need those retard muslim wannabes that don’t really follow the religion nor do they even get it; because without them our numbers would be grossly reduced.

    But what about the gay issue then?

    Well i don’t know many gay muslims.

    True, true, but maybe thats because they’re too scared to say thier gay; you know the stoning and hanging and everything.

    Yes, yes good point.

    But if there too scared then whatever really, just leave them be.

    I dunno about that, thats kind of oppressing people with our acknowledgement.

    So.

    Well im gay.

    hmmm.
    Do you mind if we kill other gays but still keep you alive?

    Well kind of yeah; i know what its like being a gay muslim. It aint easy, i can tell you that.

    Well stop being gay then.

    Ive tried, but it didn’t work. Its like i don’t mind where my dick goes.
    Its just the motion, and ive perfected it btw.

    I see; i have to be honest half the time im shagging warm watermelons.
    But thats not a sin in our Prophets eyes.

    Yeh yeh, i know god gave us something to shag but im not shagging it.
    But i have in the past; i shagged what God gave me to shag, a woman that is.
    But now i’d rather shag a man.

    I think its probably easier for all of us if we just killed you too.

  64. David T — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:30 pm  

    My room mate at work points out that all this is irrelevant when you reach the age of 35 in any case, and sex becomes a distant memory…

  65. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:32 pm  

    Great, i only got 10 yrs to go, and im not making good use of it either.

  66. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:37 pm  

    Saggal

    Thanks for your very interesting and informative post – I found it fascinating.

  67. Sunny — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:50 pm  

    I see Saggar’s point and I do largely agree with it. Telling someone that their culture is entirely backward and needs to be abandoned is a bad idea and never works. Change must firstly come from the inside (but this is a Somalian telling a largely moroccon and tunisian immigrant population) and it must come through education and empowerment.

    Ali has power, but she must also be responsible with the message she gives out. People aren’t going to abandon their culture overnight or even entirely, all it does is push them into a corner and lead to a backlash.

    Though some practices like FGM and forced marriages should not be tolerated, the general tone should be more bridge-building.

  68. Col. Mustafa — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:58 pm  

    Many find it quite hard to build bridges within Islam.

    Even middleground scholars change what they say from lecture to lecture depending on the type of audience they have.
    When talking to more right wing muslims ive seen certain good speakers in my opinion change thier tone and kind of side with his audience in a sort of male bonding thing.
    That to me is wrong; noone seems to be able to say what they want to say without being behind a computer.

    But i understand its going to take the new generation to really stir things up.
    Thats our generation hopefully, with more and more young people wanting to make a change, there will obviously be bloodshed.
    But is it a risk many will be willing to take?

  69. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 2:58 pm  

    The nutcases who threaten Ali and her kind accelerate her into positions in which people are forced to defend her whatever her message.

  70. bananabrain — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:15 pm  

    speaking of moderates, i am very sad to see that zaki badawi has died. although i never got to know him, whenever i heard him speak it reinforced why i thought that interfaith dialogue is so crucial for the future of humanity. zikhrono liberakha – may his memory be for a blessing.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  71. Rohin — on 25th January, 2006 at 4:48 pm  

    If I had a few more mins bananabrain I would’ve written something about Dr Badawi – he spoke a lot of sense (and a wee sprinkling of nuttiness as well, let’s be honest). But his willingness to engage in debate with other religions, especially Judaism, was of vital importance.

  72. Siddharth — on 25th January, 2006 at 5:05 pm  

    She has brought the old and backward Somali politics as practised by her relatives back home (and I mean her real close relatives) to Holland, only difference is, she is speaking Dutch instead of Somali. Ask any Somali and they’ll tell you it’s her kind of politics that destroyed Somalia.

    Sajjal:
    Thanks for this fantastic insightful post. This is an eye opener. My problem with Ayan Hirsi Ali is that I get this gut feeling that she’s not out to help anyone’s cause but her own.

    But please explain more about the passage you wrote about above. What are the “backward Somali politics” you speak of. Being Bangladeshi, I’m sure I have a pretty good idea, but would love to hear you expand on this from a Somali context.

  73. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 8:53 pm  

    Col Mustafa,

    “You cannot have sex with another male and be muslim.

    You cannot do recreational drugs and be a muslim.

    You cannot take the lords name in vain and be a muslim.

    You cannot drown your sorrows in a litre of vodka whilst singing songs about wooing women in different ways and taking them home from a club and be a muslim.

    You cannot fuck a rabbit and be a muslim. Dammit.

    You cannot abuse your wife and your children and then still go down the mosque and pray. Actually i think thats allowed im not sure.”

    Takfir of the Muslims, i.e. expelling a Muslim from Islam for sin is not from Islam. YOu dont have enough knowledge in Islam to decide who has commited kufr that takes them out of the fold and who is just a sinner. Be careful, many a Muslim are being killed, murdered today because some fool has declared them a kafir and kills them. Dangerous stuff.

  74. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 8:54 pm  

    Jamal,

    Hey brother. I have another name of Al Mujahid, as I think it would be inappropriate and insulting to attach to him such a noble title as Mujahid. It is better that you call him AL Mu-Jahil for debauchery.

  75. Jay Singh — on 25th January, 2006 at 8:56 pm  

    My problem with Ayan Hirsi Ali is that I get this gut feeling that she’s not out to help anyone’s cause but her own.

    I just dont buy it.

    I dont buy it that she has some nefarious and sleazy underhand ’cause’ – she is not able to walk the streets for fear of having her throat cut. What cause would make someone stick her neck out like that (excuse the pun) if it wasnt heartfelt?

    You can say she is not going about things the right way, that her tactics are misguided, but what exactly is her ’cause’? I mean apart from what she actually says she is speaking about?

  76. NorahJones — on 25th January, 2006 at 9:20 pm  

    “YOu dont have enough knowledge in Islam to decide who has commited kufr that takes them out of the fold and who is just a sinner.”

    Hark at you Bikhair.

  77. Bikhair — on 25th January, 2006 at 10:28 pm  

    Norah Jones,

    You can accuse me of many things. You do accuse me of many things, and most of the time you are right. One thing I dont do, one thing I fear doing, is calling another Muslim a kafir. If you see me do it, please tell me so I can take it back. I dont want that on my shoulders.

  78. jamal — on 26th January, 2006 at 12:00 am  

    It is better that you call him AL Mu-Jahil for debauchery.

    based on his above posts that seems appropriate.

  79. jamal — on 26th January, 2006 at 12:17 am  

    David T..

    i just read what you wrote.

    you are correct in that this imaaan group makes bold press releases that they “do not lead “Tortuous, secret lives””, but based on the link you provide, in actual fact they do hide away. A prime example that they accept their behaviour is wrong.

    The fact that they hide their own behaviour (in the closet) but tell others to show theirs (come out), should cause people to think twice before following them. it is as if that because tthis imaam group is so far astray that they want others to be further astray then them.

  80. Don — on 26th January, 2006 at 12:30 am  

    ‘ A prime example that they accept their behaviour is wrong.’

    Or just life-theatening? After all, they have to spend each day walking past wierdos obsessing about how they are deserving of death. That’s got to be creepy.

  81. Mokum — on 26th January, 2006 at 12:51 am  

    A prime example that they accept their behaviour is wrong

    No. They are afraid of senseless abuse and violence. Of the kind you sanction, Mr Islamic Holy Man.

  82. jamal — on 26th January, 2006 at 12:58 am  

    I suppose so. But then thats just paranoid because if nobody knows then people couldnt be obsessing about them. Therefore the reality is that the only reason they “spend each day walking past wierdos obsessing about how they are deserving of death”, is because they know what they are doing is wrong. They dont “have” to do this as they can easily stop this unnattural behaviour and repent.

    Nevertheless, if they’re gonna worry about anything it should be about the wrath of Allah for living a life of unnattural sex and proclaiming it to be ok against the word of the Qur’an which they claim to follow. Then groups like Imaam have to answer for doing this themselves nd advising others to sin in this way too. Thats a heavy bag of sins there.

  83. Mokum — on 26th January, 2006 at 1:15 am  

    They dont “have” to do this as they can easily stop this unnattural behaviour and repent.

    Would you give them a chance to stop being “unnatural”, or just murder them straight away, like Iranian executioners? After all, those killers are only “questionable” for you.

    Iran is pretty lonely in the ummah these days, but you stick up for it its most cruel and absurd punishments. What a heavy bag of sins you have, jamal.

  84. jamal — on 26th January, 2006 at 1:21 am  

    lol.

    To answer your question, it is not me that gives them the chance, Allah has/will already given/give them the chance. they just need to accept it and use their choice to stop it. its quite simple.

  85. Mokum — on 26th January, 2006 at 1:30 am  

    Allah has/will already given/give them the chance

    So leave it to Allah, and not man, to decide on them then :-)

    ma salaama (I mean that)

  86. Rasheed Eldin — on 26th January, 2006 at 2:33 pm  

    I invite you to check out my blog, and in particular my analysis of the programme in question. I’ve posted the first half of my analysis, and the forthcoming second half will focus more on the questions raised in the programme about Islamic law:

    http://gaymuslims.wordpress.com/

  87. Siddharth — on 26th January, 2006 at 3:06 pm  

    Rasheed, good article, especially as I didn’t see the Channel4 program. Look forward to your second part. Oh, and cool blog. Good luck with it.

  88. Sunny — on 26th January, 2006 at 4:01 pm  

    Interesting blog Rasheed. Why does it say “eye on Gay Muslims” though? I don’t get that.

  89. Col. Mustafa — on 26th January, 2006 at 4:13 pm  

    When do times change again; when is it the time again for another prophet to come down and tell us yeh; the Quran was the last word of god.
    But i might of jumped the gun abit; i might have to change and add a few things here and there.

    Is that muslims are waiting for????

    Cos they seem to think that just cos 1400 yrs ago god said to our Prophet that gays aren’t allowed, that God doesn’t exist right now.

    Did god die or something?
    God is God right? So surely he/she/it knows about the whole homosexuality issue going on in the world.
    And im pretty sure God wouldn’t say kill something i created (human being) because he is doing something that i programmed into him.

    Sure i gave him choice; but i also allowed for the thought or notion of loving another man or woman.

    So is God sadistic then?
    Is he playing games with us?
    You can love that man over there; but you cant do anything about it, he says.

    hehehe; thats just cruel.
    God knows what the man in love with the other man is going through; but wants to watch some emotional pain instead of pysical as plenty of that has already bored God.

    I don’t like god anymore; or maybe i don’t like humans thinking that thier God.

  90. Rasheed Eldin — on 26th January, 2006 at 10:36 pm  

    Thanks, Siddharth.

    SUNNY:
    If we take “gay Muslims” to refer to same-sex attracted Muslims, then they are the main subject of my blog. Among them are people who have taken all sorts of paths, including the sort that I advocate. I explain my perspective on related issues, i.e. Islam, homosexuality, and the interaction of those topics.

    I actually wrote a post on a similar question to yours:
    http://gaymuslims.wordpress.com/2006/01/22/whats-in-a-name/

    P.S. – If anyone has questions/comments for me, it may be better to post them at my blog, because I may not check this site/thread so often.

  91. Sunny — on 26th January, 2006 at 11:11 pm  

    or maybe i don’t like humans thinking that thier God.
    Ain’t that the truth mustafa.

    Rasheed – a very interesting explanation there. I like the way you approach things, not as confrontational as I am but still very straightforward. Will keep an eye on the blog. Incidentally, how did you find this place?

  92. Rasheed Eldin — on 26th January, 2006 at 11:23 pm  

    I’ve seen it before, but surfed in here this time from Google’s beta blog search:
    http://blogsearch.google.com

  93. Nadeem — on 29th January, 2006 at 4:24 pm  

    helo i want marry a girl only

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