Mumbai hit by multiple bombs and hostage-taking


by Rumbold
26th November, 2008 at 8:01 pm    

Sunny updates
The Times of India reports:

In one of the most violent terror attacks on Indian soil, Mumbai came under an unprecedented night attack as terrorists used heavy machine guns, including AK-47s, and grenades to strike at the city’s most high-profile targets — the hyper-busy CST (formerly VT) rail terminus; the landmark Taj Hotel at the Gateway and the luxury Oberoi Trident at Nariman Point; the domestic airport at Santa Cruz; the Cama and GT hospitals near CST; the Metro Adlabs multiplex and Mazgaon Dockyard — killing at least 80 and sending more than 900 to hospital, according to latest reports.

The attacks appeared to be aimed at getting international attention as the terrorists took upto 40 British nationals and other foreigners hostage. The chairman of Hindustan Unilever Harish Manwani and CEO of the company Nitin Paranjpe were among the guests trapped at the Oberoi. All the internal board members of the multinational giant were reported to be holed up in the Oberoi hotel.

Two terrorists were reported holed up inside the Oberoi Hotel and commando operation was on. An unknown outfit, Deccan Mujahideen, has sent an email to news organizations claiming that it carried out the Mumbai attacks.


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Filed in: Current affairs,India,South Asia,Terrorism






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  1. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 8:05 pm  

    Just saw a guy on the BBC called Rakesh Patel from London who is a businessman and was in one of the hotels. He said terrorists with guns started to separate all people with British and American passports and took them to another floor of the hotel. He managed to escape somehow.

  2. Golam Murtaza — on 26th November, 2008 at 8:40 pm  

    Bloody hell…..poor Mumbai gets it in the neck yet again.

  3. Ashik — on 26th November, 2008 at 9:09 pm  

    Who says India is a united country?

    India is just a hollow political entity ruling over diverse peoples some of whhom don’t like the centre for political, ethnic, religious and economic reasons.These occasional pangs are a sign of the deep fissures in the country.

  4. Sunny — on 26th November, 2008 at 9:18 pm  

    STFU up Ashik, don’t you ever have anything useful to say?

    This is really bad news… watching it now on BBC News.

    The interesting thing is that these guys are carrying around guns rather than obscure suicide attacks. This means it’ll be easier to find out who they are, once gunned down.

  5. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 9:33 pm  

    Ashik, you say all of that with a hint of glee and hysterical vindication in your voice.

    At least you have been satisfied, eh.

    This whole episode is quite horrific. Innocent members of the public were mown down with AK-47′s in the main railway station in Mumbai.

  6. Ashik — on 26th November, 2008 at 9:49 pm  

    Sunny:
    ‘This is really bad news’…

    Billy:
    ‘At least you have been satisfied, eh’

    Hang on. Since when did anyone say gunning people down and blowing stuff up was grand? Sunny, this is self evidently bad news and Billy the presumptions are your own.

    Rather than simply condemning individual acts I was opining on the root causes of the spasms of violence India goes through periodically which goes to it’s artificial creation and revisionist groups within (no good just blaming Pakistan).

  7. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 9:56 pm  

    Yes of course Ashik. Root causes and all that.

  8. alana — on 26th November, 2008 at 10:25 pm  

    Actually, Ashik is the only one who has said anything useful. Where did you guys get the tone of glee thing from???!!

    My partner is in Mumbai and I am extremely worried but that doesn’t mean we can’t analyse why this is happening!

  9. Vikrant — on 26th November, 2008 at 10:46 pm  

    With over 80 people killed most of them Indians, i find it odious that British media is parroting the line the only British and American citizens were targetted!

  10. Vikrant — on 26th November, 2008 at 10:49 pm  

    Ashik they have been prophesising about India’s breakup for over 50 years now. But India despite its chaos and everything endures. As for artificial constructs, Pakistan is more of an artifical construct than India. For most part India has cultural continuity and geographic and social depth that ensures that competing ethnic nationalisms neutralise each other.

  11. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 10:49 pm  

    I hope your partner is OK alana.

    “India is just a hollow political entity”

    India may be many things, riven with conflicts and inequality but it’s not ‘just’ a hollow political entity, and these attacks don’t really prove that. It proves many different things, complex and simple. This is the tenor of ideological gloating.

    One could say that about any society in which a terrorist attack takes place, including in Britain. On July 7th 2005, could we conclude that Britain is ‘just a hollow political entity’? Whatever it is, it is more complex than that.

  12. Ravi Naik — on 26th November, 2008 at 11:13 pm  

    India may be many things, riven with conflicts and inequality but it’s not ‘just’ a hollow political entity, and these attacks don’t really prove that.

    Ashik’s analysis would be valid if: (a) these sort of occurrences have been the norm in India during the last 50 years across the land. It isn’t. (b) the perpetrators are Indian and representative of a minority community who has been repressed over the last 50 years. But we still do not know who these people are!

  13. Muhamad — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:44 am  

    Let’s try n keep our cool, let’s look at it objectively.
    Whoever is in this outfit, they aren’t trying to show Muslims in good light. That’s for sure. There’s bound to be a backlash. Who’s going to get hurt? I’m guessing everyone.

  14. dave bones — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:26 am  

    Sorry. Everyone aroud me I talk to is making comments about the sort of tourist who stays in rich hotels in India. I know that is tasteless in the circumstances, I’m just reporting this time of years hippy exodus collecive feelings of

    “We’ll be fine”

  15. dave bones — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:40 am  

    I apologise again for black humour. To put this in a bit of context the Kashmiris I met in Delhi told me every Kashmiri they knew had cigarette burns on the end of their dicks. Whole villages are made to stand out in the sun. These seem to be the sort of reasons terrorists seek this publicity. I don’t agree with terrorism.

  16. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:53 am  

    I am so sick of this shit.

    I’m sick of Muslims turning to violence to address their grievances across the world.

    I’m sick of do-gooders turning around after these attacks and telling Indians to constantly turn the other cheek.

    I’m sick of Pakistan, the government in Pakistan, their support of terrorism and the outright Islamic fascism of so many of their people.

    If you don’t like India then go to a Muslim country!!!

  17. digitalcntrl — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:33 am  

    The most sickening thing about all this is that nothing will change. People will give their perfunctory condolences that mean absolutely nothing. Islamofascists will lecture India, just as they have the West, about their “oppression” and continue with their fucked up beliefs, zero introspection. Only excuses and pontification galore will prevail.

    Deport to all Islamofascists…

  18. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 6:11 am  

    I’m sure the Kashmiri Muslim torture victims are “sick of this shit” too. See? You’ve got something in common with them!

  19. Vikrant — on 27th November, 2008 at 6:47 am  

    These seem to be the sort of reasons terrorists seek this publicity. I don’t agree with terrorism.

    Dave did you also happen to come across the squalid camps of fine people called Kashmiri Pandits? Kashmir is a multi-dimensional conflict and all the participants have blood on their hands! Having said that, a group called Indian Mujahideen seems responsible. They dont even have anything to do with Kashmiri cause!

  20. Boyo — on 27th November, 2008 at 7:46 am  

    Dave Bones’ hippies probably rely on their rich mummies and daddies who stay in these hotels, along with the businessmen who made them rich, to finance their lifestyle. God I hate hippies.

    Ashik’s – Who says India is a united country? – yeah well the same could be said of any nation that has a minority that like slaughtering their citizens on religious grounds, inc. UK, Netherlands, Spain, France, etc. And incidentally, although one almost looks back at it with nostalgia now given the vindictive insanity of Islamic terror, the UK was “disunited” for a century before thanks to the IRA.

    This is never going to end – even if every Muslim went to live in a Muslim country as Nav suggests, conflict will inevitably flare up from time to time between elements of Islam and the rest: it is hard-wired in to the relationship, as the history for the last 1500 years clearly illustrates. It’s not a nice thing to say, but there is no evidence to suggest otherwise.

  21. Nimesh Shah — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:39 am  

    This is the statement being made on behalf of Hindustan Unilever Limited

    We wish to confirm that the Unilever Group CEO Mr. Patrick Cescau, the Unilever CEO-elect Paul Polman and the HUL Management team including HUL Chairman, Mr. Harish Manwani and HUL CEO Mr Nitin Paranjpe, who were at the Taj Hotel (Mumbai) yesterday, had left the hotel last night (November 26th) itself and they are all safe and accounted for.

    Our thoughts are with all those who have been affected by these unfortunate events.

    For any more clarifications do email at nimesh@windchimes.co.in

  22. fugstar — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:48 am  

    9 – brit and us nationals are always more newsworthy and protection worthy. it sucks. that it was brit and us nationals and not other europeans… or say newzealanders might point towards motivations though. I remember how the tsunami came to us through the lens of holidaying people in thailand rather than asians. the public relate to it more readily + its probably easier to tap.

    interesting blog.
    http://indianmuslims.in/mumbai-terror-attacks/

    Saw a cctv still of one of the attackers on aljazeera last night. He was soooo young. Imagine what its like being held up by vicious people of you’re children’s generation?

  23. Roger — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:51 am  

    Cui bono?
    The England cricket team were 6-0 or thereabouts down in the one-day series, which has now been abandoned….

  24. Bert Rustle — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:55 am  

    Thomas Sowell, the Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution has written an essay Affirmative Action around the World. The whole essay is well worth reading, however I provide some highlights which give an indication of the background situation in India.

    … the more fortunate untouchables benefit [disproportionately] from affirmative action in India.

    Affirmative action programs also generate major social costs that fall on the population as a whole. Losses of efficiency are among these costs, whether because less-qualified persons are chosen over more-qualified persons or because many highly qualified members of non-preferred groups emigrate from a society where their chances have been reduced. However, the cost of inefficiency is overshadowed by the cost of intergroup polarization, violence, and loss of lives. Bloody and lethal riots over affirmative action in India are the most obvious examples, but there have also been young brahmins who have died by setting themselves on fire in protest against policies which have destroyed their prospects.

    As the country which has had preferences and quotas for the less fortunate longer than any other, India presents the clearest historical picture of their consequences, as well as the clearest statistical picture. Its history is not one to encourage other countries to follow in India’s footsteps …

    … Another widespread kind of dishonesty, in both India and the United States, is the use of hazy, unverifiable criteria to conceal group preferences in college and university admissions by automatically offsetting the better academic records of members of one group with higher “leadership” and other subjective rankings of members of other groups who would be inadmissible, in competition with others, on academic grounds. In both countries, court decisions restricting the scope or terms of group preferences in admissions to colleges and universities have been followed by efforts to put a greater emphasis on non-academic criteria in admissions. The rankings of students on these non-academic criteria in India have almost invariably turned out to be higher for those with lower academic records and lower for those with higher academic records.

    … In the United States, nebulous factors … set off a wave of creative proposals for non-objective criteria for admissions, echoing what had happened in India decades before, where the state government of Mysore “suddenly exhibited an enhanced concern for the extra-curricular accomplishments of applicants to professional colleges.” Nothing is easier than to come up with rationales for non-objective criteria. In India’s state of Madras, for example, one supporter of such criteria argued that such criteria would “eliminate puny creatures with no personality from becoming engineers and doctors.”

    … Are the … numerous local majorities victims of the Chettiar or Marwari minorities in various parts of India? … The dogma that statistical disparities demonstrate discrimination assumes an equality of performance that is virtually impossible to find in the real world.

    … Statistical disparities prove nothing about discrimination because they are common even in situations where those who are statistically dominant have no way to discriminate.

    … The very modest benefits of affirmative action, concentrated on those already more fortunate, with little or no benefits to those who are truly disadvantaged, have often been blamed on insufficient zeal, or even bad faith, on the part of those administering affirmative action programs.

    …This does not even take into account the intergroup polarization which group preferences and quotas provoke, and which can take many forms, including lethal riots, as in India …

    Another way in which affirmative action can be a negative-sum process is by a withdrawal of members of non-preferred groups and the loss of their contributions to the society at large. …

    … Even when serious moral questions surround the past or present mistreatment of groups such as the untouchables in India or blacks in the United States, the remedies proposed rapidly spread far beyond redress of the misfortunes used to justify those remedies. Not only has the internal distribution of compensatory benefits borne little relationship—or even an inverse relationship—to the degree of misfortune within the affected groups, such benefits have spread to other groups far beyond the scope of the moral rationale and far exceeding in size the intended beneficiary groups. …

  25. dave bones — on 27th November, 2008 at 9:05 am  

    Boyo- fair comment, except I dont know any of the rich hippies. They live on the other side of London. I can’t support terrorism or “sympathise”. I think making every effort to understand terrorism will minimize it. Nord Ost narrated by Ian McShane of all people is a good place to start.

  26. Amrinder — on 27th November, 2008 at 9:16 am  

    On rediff.com there reporting that this mujahideen outfit is actually linked with Lakshar e Tayiba

    Apparently most of the terrorists are coming in from Karachi.

    If you heard CNN last night it was all blame on Pakistan.

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/27mum-terrorists-in-touch-with-karachi-via-satphone.htm

  27. fugstar — on 27th November, 2008 at 9:17 am  

    “..the more fortunate untouchables benefit [disproportionately] from affirmative action in India.”

    What an unholy load of absolute pants, pooo, crud and rollox. would have expected a ‘pickled’ forum to have better picture of thinking media in and on india.

    http://www.littlemag.com/security/index.html
    http://www.tehelka.com/

  28. Nimesh Shah — on 27th November, 2008 at 9:35 am  

    This is the statement being made on behalf of Hindustan Unilever Limited

    We wish to confirm that the Unilever Group CEO Mr. Patrick Cescau, the Unilever CEO-elect Paul Polman and the HUL Management team including HUL Chairman, Mr. Harish Manwani and HUL CEO Mr Nitin Paranjpe, who were at the Taj Hotel (Mumbai) yesterday, had left the hotel last night (November 26th) itself and they are all safe and accounted for.

    Our thoughts are with all those who have been affected by these unfortunate events.

    For more information on the subject do visit http://www.hul.co.in.

  29. Bert Rustle — on 27th November, 2008 at 9:56 am  

    fugstar 27 Have a look at the whole essay, if you have time, as my summary of the points about India may have misrepresented it.

  30. Random Guy — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:08 am  

    Nav @ 16: I am sick of worthless whining comments which contribute nothing to the wider discussion – see, now we have something in common!

    Boyo @ 20: Pot calling the kettle…

    My 2 cents: The way they specifically asked for UK/US nationals is chilling. Current reports say they have nothing to do with ‘Al-Qaeda’, which may point to a very worrying prospect for anyone from here going to India. It is very likely that this group is using the Iraq/Afghan wars as justification for its actions.

    I hope those unaccounted for will be found safe. I feel deep sympathy and sorrow for the innocent victims of this massacre. Here’s hoping the Indian authorities can put a quick and decisive end to it.

  31. Boyo — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:16 am  

    AQ is like MacDonalds – it franchises out its acts of butchery, hence it does not have to be literally AQ to be AQ.

  32. George — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:45 am  

    The terrorists clearly seek
    1) to scare off tourists and investors
    2) to avenge the mass killings of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002 and their constant vilification, arbitrary arrests, detentions and degradation on the flimsiest of pretexts.
    3) to express their displeasure over the close ties India has with Israel.

    The TV footage one sees gives the impression of an unprepared security force. They don’t operate like a disciplined, purposeful group. Meanwhile, the crowds keep milling and uncontrolled, adding to the chaos and mayhem, characteristic of Indian street scenes. For a supposedly posh south end of a city, there are so many ramshackle structures around.

    Worse still, there is no information centre or officer to disseminate a steady stream of news as it unfolds. And the politicians seem muddled about the situation. We are told the attacks took place near the police headquarters and the army had stormed into the hotel and 200 miore commandos have been deployed. Yet they seem unable to dislodge the handful of gunmen who seem still very much in control.

    The Indians have a long way to go in disaster management and rapid response. Maybe India is “a hollow political entity” after all and may now have to get more realistic about their global dreams.

  33. dave bones — on 27th November, 2008 at 11:27 am  

    I have always wondered why these sort of things never target Israeli tourists. They could close their eyes and pull the trigger on the beach in Goa.

  34. Jai — on 27th November, 2008 at 11:37 am  

    Dave,

    Apparently an Israeli family have also been taken hostage.

    ***********************

    Quite shocking events. Let’s hope the Indian police and military manage to resolve the situation successfully, ideally without many more civilian fatalities.

    I also hope those of you who have relatives/friends in Mumbai have managed to contact them and everyone is safe & sound.

  35. SKye-Vee — on 27th November, 2008 at 11:46 am  

    Dave

    Actually Nariman House has been targeted in Mumbai. Which is in a Jewish area, I believe. Isreali’s have been affected.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Rest_of_World/Family_in_Israel_prays_for_relatives_held_hostage_at_Nariman_House/articleshow/3765356.cms

  36. aji — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:08 pm  

    Naturally I’m very sad to hear about the unprecedented violence in Mumbai. I agree with Vikrant @ 10. The growth of Islamic and Hindu fundamentalism in India is a worry; both feed off each other, and politicians have only fanned these flames through their own incompetence and opportunism.

    The fact that the terrorists targeted foreigners, including Americans, Brits and Israelis, should raise some serious concerns in the west. The terrorists are almost definitely jihadis who are well trained and highly motivated, with possible help from across the border.

  37. Kismet Hardy — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:18 pm  

    This is bollocks. Considering some of the biggest names in Bollywood are Muslims – Shah Rukh Khan, Salman Khan, Amir Khan, lots of other Khans, Mumbai does more for the Hindu-Muslim unity fairytale than any other city in the subcontinent, or anywhere on earth for that matter.

    Hollywood still balks at love story pair-ups between black and white (will smith will get a latino love interest at a push), but Bollywood doesn’t bat an eyelid when Muslim Shah Rukh gets jiggy under a waterfall with Hindu Aishwarya Rai, or think nothing of sikh Bobby Deol and christian John Abrahams playing brothers…

    Dickhead Mujaheedin cunts

  38. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:22 pm  

    Just a quick point. I find myself grimacing every time I encounter another news report describing the attacks as “audacious”. Isn’t that a positive attribute?! Hardly the sort of word I’d use to describe a bunch of nutters mowing down unarmed civilians.

    And yes, I know a lot of Muslims in India (especially the poorer ones) get a raw deal. It’s unacceptable. But God knows how the terrorists think they’re going to solve that by doing what they do.

  39. billy — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:33 pm  

    The terrorists clearly seek…..to express their displeasure over the close ties India has with Israel.

    I want to express my displeasure with Britain’s close ties to *insert name of country here*

    I am going to express my displeasure by forming 16 cadres of men with AK-47 rifles and grenades and shooting dead hundreds of people in central London.

    I just can’t help myself you see. I have no self control. I’m really weak when I open a packet of Jaffa cakes too, I can’t just have one, have to finish them all off in one sitting. What can you do.

    Dickhead Mujaheedin cunts

    Just about sums it up, Kismet Hardy, except for one thing. I’d add the words ‘and their rhetorical apologists’ into the dickhead mujaheedin cunts equation.

  40. platinum786 — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:39 pm  

    Indians resorting to type again. Something goes wrong, blame Muslims, especially Pakistan.

    In Gujurat just before 3000 were killed in riots, thousands more injured and raped, Muslims were blamed for a fire on a train that turned out to be “an accident”.

    When bomb blasts happened in Delhi during in Malegaon, unknown “terrorist groups” were blamed, the word Muslim and Mujahideen was branded about as usual. In the end an Indian army officer has been arrested and charged for providing RDX, a high class explosive for use in those blasts, to Hindu terrorist groups.

    Now we see this occur. NDTV is reporting the attackers came from Gujurat. Trying to blame Muslims again perhaps. What has not been mentioned on the BBC and CNN is that Indian police is reporting that the explosive used was RDX.

  41. Random Guy — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:44 pm  

    @39 Billy: I would have rather added the words “and rhetorical apologists of all stripes” to Kismet’s comment.

    Platinum786, thanks for the info. What is also worrying is how these ‘previously unknown’ groups seem to pop up out of nowhere.

  42. bananabrain — on 27th November, 2008 at 12:50 pm  

    yeah, they seem to have gone for the chabad house in mumbai:

    http://www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/772546/jewish/Update-in-Mumbai.htm

    they’re holding the rabbi and his wife hostage. i’m saying prayers for them.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  43. billy — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:13 pm  

    Indians resorting to type again.

    When terrorist atrocities happen in Pakistan, as in, most recently the Marriot hotel bomb in Islamabad, which type do Pakistanis resort to?

    they’re holding the rabbi and his wife hostage. i’m saying prayers for them.

    When I visited India I met Israeli backpackers and tourists everywhere I went, especially in Goa. You have nightmares about a Bali style attack in an idyllic place like that.

  44. aji — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:25 pm  

    Considering some of the biggest names in Bollywood are Muslims – Shah Rukh Khan, Salman Khan, Amir Khan, lots of other Khans, Mumbai does more for the Hindu-Muslim unity fairytale than any other city in the subcontinent, or anywhere on earth for that matter.

    Bollywood movies maybe over the top and unrealistic but they are extremely popular among the masses, and that says something. It doesn’t matter if you’re Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Parsi, north Indian, south Indian, Bengali or whatever else, you can still make it in Bollywood and be accepted by the vast majority of Indians.

    platinum786

    Hindu groups are nowhere near this sophisticated; they are not known for using AK47s, grenades and indiscriminate killing; and Hindus really don’t have a problem with Jews. Considering how sophisticated these attacks were, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an international dimension to these attacks. Al-Qaeda has been increasingly outsourcing much of its butchery to militant groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) in recent times, and LeT has only gleefully accepted the challenge.

  45. The Dude — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:32 pm  

    I can’t get over what happened at the CST Railway Station. These no-good, worthless, shit eating niggers (yes that’s what I said, because that’s exactly what they are) shot dead completely innocent men, women and children for absolutely no good reason. I doubt that any of the dead (at CST) possessed a US or British passport, as if that would have made a difference. These murdering bastards just didn’t give a fuck.

    The deliberate targetting of Brits and Yanks at the two hotels just made a bad situation a whole heap worse. On this one, I have no alternative but to agree with Hardy. Mumbai was targeted precisely because it is so cosmopolitan and not the other way round. The enemies of humanity abhor unity and diversity. They hate people simply getting along. I hope they all rot in hell.

  46. billy — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:34 pm  

    The Guardian reports that five Jewish families are being held hostage.

    Terrorist gunmen also seized the Mumbai headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch. Commandos surrounded the building this morning and witnesses said gunfire could be heard from inside…..

    ……”We know they have kept five Jewish families as hostages. They are in the building below the flat where the terrorists are in. Every time the Jewish families try to move out, the terrorists shoot them. They have grenades, they have AK47s. The neighbours told us these men had brought 100kg of chicken. They want to last out for a few days.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/27/mumbai-terror-attacks-india4

  47. justforfun — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:48 pm  

    I have nothing really to say , what is there to say that has not been said.

    I’ll just make a few observations

    Nariman Point is not a Jewish area. It happens there is a Jewish Centre there and it is close to the sea. These men landed by boat at the Gateway to India and fanned out. Look it up on Google Earth (or here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7751876.stm)

    They scouted out their targets and they are all within a mile of the Gateway. The furthest is the Cama Hospital – a hospital set up for women over a hundred years ago. WTF have they against a Womens hospital? The Jewish Centre at Nariman House – no need to eloborate on why this was a target for those who like to ingratiate themselves with their gods. The VT railway terminus was hit I’m sure because , being India you are guaranteed to get a crowd and it will just be an orgy of death – so I’m sure it was attacked to raise the body count and for no other reason. Leopold cafe – an Irani cafe? – This is right behind the Taj and is frequented now by backpackers so death to foreigners. The change in the nature of the Kashmir dispute came with the decapitation of tourists.

    Anyway it all too depressing so I give you a poem by Nissim Ezekiel – an Indian, Bombay born and bred, on Irani cafes. (I don’t use the word Mumbai – it name change was a bad omen and the step change in communial politics. )

    Irani Restaurant Instructions

    Please
    Do not spit
    Do not sit more
    Pay promptly, time is valuable
    Do not write letter
    without order refreshment
    Do not comb,
    hair is spoiling floor
    Do not make mischief in cabin
    our waiter is watching
    Come again
    All are welcome whatever caste
    If not satisfied tell us
    otherwise tell others
    God Is Great

    He was of course Jewish.

    Look up his work – he is very good and very funny and may cheer you up on this day.

    justforfun

  48. Boyo — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:04 pm  

    “Indians resorting to type again. Something goes wrong, blame Muslims,”

    Yeah, it’s probably Mossad. Or the Australians. They’re always terrorising someone those damn Aussie Mujahadeen.

  49. bananabrain — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:05 pm  

    the sad thing is that this is where my mum and her aunties grew up, in colaba. the indian iraqi community are mostly here in london now. i bet this will cause yet another sermon this week; this is what does my head in, every time i hassle people about interfaith dialogue, i get “you see, though, it doesn’t matter what we do, they’ll still turn on us and try to kill us, so what’s the point?”

    say what you like about israel and the i/p situation, jews still don’t travel the world killing muslims at random simply for being muslim.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  50. fugstar — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:22 pm  

    i think that might have something to do with entropy.

  51. Refresh — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:24 pm  

    This is tyranny. Absolutely.

  52. aji — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:31 pm  

    bananabrain

    Interesting that! My mum’s side is Syro-Chaldean. I remember visiting a Jewish synagogue in Kochi over ten years ago. A quarter of Kochi is still known as “Jew Town”, and in the olden days before Israel was formed, there thousands of Jews in Kochi. Not many Jews left today – just a dozen elderly Jewish people.

  53. justforfun — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:33 pm  

    “the sad thing is that this is where my mum and her aunties grew up, in colaba. the indian iraqi community are mostly here in london now.”

    Why did they all leave? Or is it a case of the young leaving for a better life and the old staying behind and dieing out?

    justforfun

  54. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:37 pm  

    I’m sure the Kashmiri Muslim torture victims are “sick of this shit” too. See? You’ve got something in common with them!

    Tot up the number of victims of the tyranny of Muslims and compare that to the number of Kashmiris supposedly “tortured” and I think you’ll find that Muslims have been far the more deadlier perpetrators and instigators of racist violence than any other community in the sub-continent so before you start playing the victim I suggest you take a swift look back over the course of the last 500 or so years before you start casting stones.

    say what you like about israel and the i/p situation, jews still don’t travel the world killing muslims at random simply for being muslim.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

    Precisely. It’s amazing that after so many attacks and so many instances of Muslim aggression people are still blind to the obviously dangerous trappings of Islam.

  55. TFI — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:03 pm  

    I was just listening to the Nihal show and a lady phoned up and blamed it on America – nice!

    Many Muslims ask “why should we apologise for the acts of these people?”

    I agree completely that Muslims living in this country, or elsewhere, have nothing to with these acts and it is not rational for non Muslims to expect anything other than condolences from them.

    However, I do expect them to be embarrassed when someone shouts “Al Akbar” and then slaughters innocents in the name of Allah and Islam where ever it happens in the world.

    Unfortunately, this often seems to much to ask because whenever it does happen it turns out that they weren’t really “Muslims” in the first place.

    Personally I find this hand washing exercise absolutely shameful and it makes these “condolences” seem insincere.

    TFI

  56. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:15 pm  

    TFI. Well if you find our condolences “insincere” maybe we should stop offering them. Would that help?

    Nav. Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims HAVE been tortured. Sorry if you have a hard time accepting that. Security forces all over the Third World torture prisoners and suspects as a matter of course. The Indian military/police is no exception.

    I have no doubt that the Indian police will respond to this latest atrocity with its usual investigative prowess. It’ll focus on all the usual suspects – every single young, Muslim, Indian man.

    So that will narrow the list down to only 40 million.

  57. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:20 pm  

    Golam: firstly, you can play the victim card and use the treatment of Kashmiris all you like to justify the attacks but Muslims have caused far more deaths of Sikhs, Jews, Christians and Hindus than vice versa so I guess you could, by virtue of your logic, argue that the ill-treatment of Kashmiris is justified because of the numbers that Muslims have slain in the name of Islam, no?

    And do you know why young Muslim men are the usual suspects?

    Because 9 times out of 10 the perps are young Muslim men!

  58. bananabrain — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:25 pm  

    It’s amazing that after so many attacks and so many instances of Muslim aggression people are still blind to the obviously dangerous trappings of Islam.

    that’s not my point at all, so don’t make it out to be. my point would be more that islam (like christianity, judaism, hinduism and buddhism etc) needs to do more to protect itself against the people claiming to act in its name in order to justify aggressive behaviour.

    nav:

    don’t be a feckin’ feathered eejit.

    Why did they all leave? Or is it a case of the young leaving for a better life and the old staying behind and dieing out?

    in some cases. my family were definitely economic migrants. others left because they had lived through partition and felt that they were going to be singled out eventually when nationalism began to take hold.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  59. TFI — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:31 pm  

    Golam, I find YOUR condolences insincere, I suggest that you stop offering them, especially if you start banging on about Kashmir within the same breath.

    TFI

  60. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:31 pm  

    that’s not my point at all, so don’t make it out to be.

    It’s my point- not yours.

    my point would be more that islam (like christianity, judaism, hinduism and buddhism etc) needs to do more to protect itself against the people claiming to act in its name in order to justify aggressive behaviour.

    Erm, yes, because we regularly see instances of crazed Buddhist gunmen rampaging through city streets taking hostages or blowing themselves up in the name of Buddha.

    Call a spade a spade and save us all the trouble.

  61. dave bones — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:34 pm  

    billy- When I visited India I met Israeli backpackers and tourists everywhere I went, especially in Goa.

    and this type of attack down there would kill Israeli tourism in the area stone dead. I had been expecting one since sept 11th. There are always scares down there, but nothing more. Strange. Maybe they are scared of Mossad.

  62. billy — on 27th November, 2008 at 3:58 pm  

    I was just listening to the Nihal show and a lady phoned up and blamed it on America – nice!

    I have no doubt that there are quite a few people in this country who feel that way. They are moral cretins.

    There are always scares down there, but nothing more. Strange. Maybe they are scared of Mossad.

    Nothing to do with being scared of Mossad. They just haven’t got round to it yet.

  63. Sid — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:05 pm  

    This is from the Guardian:

    The kidnapper, who identified himself as Sahadullah, told Indian TV that he was one of seven attackers inside the Oberoi hotel. “Release all the mujahideens, and Muslims living in India should not be troubled,” he said.

    My question is, who the fuck are you?

    If I were an Muslim living in India I would be repulsed and horrified that some murderous thug, having just killed dozens of women and children, would have the audacity to speak on my behalf and for the welfare of my children.

    Indian Muslims should demand that these criminals be dragged out of the hotels and duly hanged publicly, as murderers are under Shari’a law. The same Shari’a law that they are willing to kill innocent people for.

  64. bananabrain — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:13 pm  

    Erm, yes, because we regularly see instances of crazed Buddhist gunmen rampaging through city streets taking hostages or blowing themselves up in the name of Buddha.

    i take your point, but i seem to remember that the sinhalese and vietnamese are quite buddhist and yet i’m not 100% sure they’re committed to ahimsa (non-violence). i will concede that i can’t remember anyone who claimed to do violence in the name of buddha, but that might just be my ignorance.

    Call a spade a spade and save us all the trouble.

    oh, i thought i did earlier. i just don’t have the same spade as you.

    and this type of attack down there would kill Israeli tourism in the area stone dead. I had been expecting one since sept 11th. There are always scares down there, but nothing more. Strange. Maybe they are scared of Mossad.

    most israeli tourists are so pigheadedly over-confident that they ignore stuff like that: “this is – EH – nothing, i was in the – EH – army, we are not scared of these things”.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  65. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:16 pm  

    i take your point, but i seem to remember that the sinhalese and vietnamese are quite buddhist and yet i’m not 100% sure they’re committed to ahimsa (non-violence). i will concede that i can’t remember anyone who claimed to do violence in the name of buddha, but that might just be my ignorance.

    The Sinhalese and Vietnamese don’t use religion as an impetus to instigate and foment violence like Muslims have done for centuries with Islam.

  66. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:22 pm  

    TFI. No problem. I’ll stop offering my condolences then.

    Nav. If protesting about people being tortured is ‘playing the victim’, then yes, I guess I’m just one big old victim player. Always have been, always will be. You can keep turning a blind eye if you want.

  67. Hermes — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:25 pm  

    Sid,

    Yes, well said…sharing the sharia around will probably teach these bastards that there aint no effing virgins waiting for them on the other side.

  68. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:30 pm  

    Golam: then will you also acknowledge that Muslims have wrought havoc on the sub-continent and slain countless Sikhs, Hindus and Christians in the name of Islam?

  69. billy — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:33 pm  

    Sikhs, Hindus and Christians have also slain people in the name of their religion. This discussion is going down a dead end Nav.

  70. Boyo — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:35 pm  

    “You can keep turning a blind eye if you want.”

    So the victims of 7/7 deserved it because of Iraq I suppose, as did the victims of the Madrid bombings. And the victims of Bali and 9/11, now what was the excuse there, exactly? Um… “imperialism” was it? Um…

    It seems the only excuse extremists actually need is that their victims are non-Muslim: after all, they exist in the “House of War”, right?

    And if they happen to take some Muslims out at the same time, well then they’re martyrs, right?

    The truth is, some people are just looking for an excuse, like you Golam.

  71. Refresh — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:47 pm  

    Boyo, you are being extreme in your reading of what Golam has said.

    Trying to make sense of this will mean people need to speculate the perpetrators motives. Golam’s speculation is as plausible as others on this thread.

  72. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 4:59 pm  

    Nav. In polite answer to your question. Yes. And despite what TFI might claim, I mean that sincerely.

    Boyo. What are you talking about? I was making a specific point about what I saw as Nav’s dismissive attitude towards torture practiced by security forces in Kashmir. I wasn’t justifying anything. You could try and actually read my posts first before jumping to conclusions.

    Refresh. Cheers.

  73. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 5:06 pm  

    billy: please provide evidence to show that Sikhs have instigated aggressive attacks on persons of other religions akin to how Muslims have done so in the name of religion.

  74. Boyo — on 27th November, 2008 at 5:09 pm  

    Separating British and Americans doesn’t suggest to me this has much to do with Kashmir. Furthermore the group has stated it is for “every crime against Muslims Hindus have committed since 1945″.

    Sorry, I’m just tired of the endless excuses and justification – this will go on and on and on and it will always be someone elses’ fault. No doubt when Sunny goes on the telly tonight, along with everyone else he will repeat the same old platitudes.

    Although many Muslims, like any other ordinary people, are essentially peaceful, and keep protesting that Islam is the “religion of peace”, the religion itself clearly states this applies WITHIN Islam: violence is justified again and again by the religion against non-Muslims; conquest is an intrinsic part of Islamic heritage and one to be proud of: I went to an open day at my local mosque recently and there was a long list of bloody battle honours. It’s not like they make a big secret of it!

    Just because most Muslims are obviously peaceful, ignores the reality that some are not and will use their religion as an excuse to commit acts of violence, and they will find their sanction in their religion. I mean, can no one see a pattern here?!

  75. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 5:14 pm  

    Good post, Boyo.

  76. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 5:38 pm  

    I agree, not a bad post, Boyo.

    Though I would disagree with you on your prediction for Sunny’s performance. I’ll think he’ll do alright.

  77. Beavis — on 27th November, 2008 at 6:24 pm  

    Platinum786 showing his true colours…

    http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=79760

    In case he deletes.

    platinum786
    Rating: 4
    View Member Profile

    post Today, 07:41 AM
    Post #6

    GENERAL
    Group Icon

    Group: Moderator
    Posts: 18,679
    Joined: 16-October 02
    From: UK
    Member No.: 109

    i personally don’t give a damn if it affects people i don’t like, like Indians.

  78. mk1 — on 27th November, 2008 at 6:36 pm  

    Very classy platinum.

  79. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 6:46 pm  

    platinum is a 20-something man from Derby who spends his free time moderating a forum that concentrates on military issues despite not appearing to have any connection to the military of Pakistan.

    He lives in a fantasy world and deserves your sympathy- not your disdain.

  80. George — on 27th November, 2008 at 7:26 pm  

    Speaking of Isrealis in India and HGoa in particualr, here are extracts from Bloomberg News (Dec2007):
    According to Israeli and Indian officials, between 40,000 and 60,000 young Israelis have either permanently moved or established long-term residence in India. They have created new lives for themselves alongside the country’s 900 million Hindus and 150 million Muslims and caused tension among the locals because of the widespread use of recreational drugs.
    Between 1992 and 2006, trade between Israel and India grew to $2.7 billion from $200 million and is poised to top $3 billion annually.

    Indian Minister of Commerce and Industry Kamal Nath said; “40,000 over-enthusiastic Israelis in India are not going to get in the way of more than $3 billion of bilateral trade; I’m not concerned about the drug use. India is not just the world’s biggest democracy, it’s the world’s rowdiest democracy.” [Typical servile Indian reactions of Indian elites to Euro offences]

    The long march from the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem to Curlie’s bar in the rocks overlooking Anjuna Beach would probably challenge Moses. Lapsed Israelis say it often requires skirting Indian visas, residency permits and making side trips to “friendly” Indian consulates in Beijing and Chiang Mai, Thailand. Some fly to Sri Lanka and jump a boat for the short ride across Pamban Channel, blending in among locals who are mostly exempt from Indian immigration checks.
    “It’s easy to pull off,” says Anjuna Christian, a 66- year-old Frenchman who renamed himself after the beach he has lived on since moving here in 1977. “The Israelis are Goa’s next generational wave. They’re coming no matter who likes it or not.”
    Those who manage to secure a legitimate visa from the Indian Consulate in Tel Aviv pay $629 for a round trip that begins with a rickety bus ride to Amman and a Gulf Air flight to Bahrain and Mumbai. From there it’s a sweltering and crowded nine-hour train ride to Panaji, Goa’s capital.
    The cost of deliverance is initially underwritten by the Israeli Defense Force. Combat veterans leave the army with a maximum cash bonus of $2,100. Combat support staff walk away with $1,800. Everyone else pockets $1,452.
    Breznitz’s apprehension can be heard during conversations on the porch of a crumbling stone villa in Anjuna. It’s from this old Portuguese house where Rabbi Meir Alfasi, 22 and an envoy of the powerful Brooklyn-based Hassidic group Chabad- Lubavitch, cheerfully spends his days tending two goats, three chickens and riding a motor scooter equipped with walkie-talkies around Goa, trying to bring Jews back to Judaism.
    Alfasi sees the 40,000 Jews wandering through India as prisoners in a new Babylonian Captivity.
    “India is the lowest place on Earth, an impure place in the middle of idolatry. Lots of idols and lots of Jews looking to be assimilated in the local culture. Our mission is to prevent that from happening.”
    The Chabad outpost includes a kosher kitchen and a room for a synagogue that holds Goa’s only Torah; it opened its doors in 2000. A dozen Jews for Saturday service is considered a good crowd. The chocolate cake is delightful. “It’s a big draw,” Alfasi smiles.
    Alfasi says Israelis generally remain in India for five to 10 years, adding that the Indian government is now quietly trying to help him reduce that time by limiting the number of visas it issues to Israelis and the period they can legally remain in the country. “It will be hard for them to find us here, Meir,” says Yomtov Yoni, 23, an air-conditioner repairman and Israeli air force fireman whom Alfasi is trying to bring back into the fold. Says Yoni: “India is huge. `Israel is the size of Anjuna Beach. We are free here, Meir.”
    Near the bottom of the beach road, a few dirt alleys down from an Israeli tattoo parlor, is the crisp white tent office of Ashok Kumar, 28, a fifth-generation ayurvedic Indian healer. The marquee above Kumar’s turbaned head guarantees a remedy for a long list of afflictions that range from “leprosy” to “typhoid.” There are potions to relieve “sexual disorders” and spices to cure “madness.” The line of patients is long.
    He says: “I see two or three Israelis every week. `They all have the same problem: madness. Their nervous systems are spent and they need their brains rebalanced.” The cost of sanity is $16 to $35, depending on severity.

  81. dave bones — on 27th November, 2008 at 7:38 pm  

    That is a really funny article cheers for posting

    I’m not concerned about the drug use. India is not just the world’s biggest democracy, it’s the world’s rowdiest democracy.” [Typical servile Indian reactions of Indian elites to Euro offences]

    How is the reaction servile I don’t get it. And who is offended by Israelis taking drugs? Being rude, burning the roof of their beach huts, playing loud music etc etc etc I have seen Indians being offended by. If you are lucky you get to see them deal with it in a traditional Goan manner which is very amusing. Who is offended by drug taking in India?

  82. George — on 27th November, 2008 at 7:48 pm  

    Hi Dave #81. If it was Indians found taking drugs, the same minister would blow his top (he would hypocritically appeal to his high Hindu credentials) but Indian officials always fizzle when it comes to Europeans. They can get away with murder.
    I am sure right now, the Indian top hierarchy (usually bereft of ideas) must be consulting Israeli & US terror experts.
    Some other developments in the Mumbai attacks (taken from Ultrabrown.org):

    There are some mixed reports about what the Deccani Mujahideen want. Apparently, they asked for “all mujahideen” to be released (perhaps they took heart from our inept handling of Kandahar). They’ve also claimed that these attacks are a reaction to the years of persecution of Islam. Some have suggested that the Deccani Mujahideen is a front for a Pakistani terrorist group.

    Cama and GT Hospital seem to be terrorist-free while the “operations” continue at Trident, Taj and Nariman House. Colaba is officially under curfew.

    11.19am – Two “top US intelligence officials” have been killed in the Taj.

    The terrorists were brandishing an MP5 gun, not an AK 47.

    Eight kilograms of RDX were found near the Taj hotel. Two live bombs were defused at the Taj. The 19th floor of the Trident is where the terrorists are believed to be at the moment. If you look up at the skyscraper, you can see it’s the only set of windows with lights on in them. Ten to twelve terrorists are believed to be inside the Trident.

    Six Israelis are among those being held hostage in Nariman House, Colaba. Altogether, there are about 30 hostages.

  83. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:00 pm  

    So, Nav. I guess you, me and platinum won’t be getting together for a couple of joints anytime soon?

  84. Nav — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:10 pm  

    That’s all you could come up with?

    My, you boys really are only good at committing suicide.

  85. Ashik — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:10 pm  

    Indians pride themselves on being progressive, sophisticated and capable of introspection.

    Anybody reading some the anti-Muslim lynch-mob comments on this board would not be able to distinguish it from Hindu hating rabid Islamo-nationalists on any Pakistani forum.

    It just goes to show how immature so many people are.

  86. Golam Murtaza — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:26 pm  

    I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then.

  87. George — on 27th November, 2008 at 8:43 pm  

    Ashik #85 makes the usual dogmatic (axiomatic) statements that Indians are fond of. They don’t feel that they have to back their claims by hard evidence.
    Is Gujarat’s Narendra Modi ‘progressive’ after presiding over the killing of 2000 Muslims?
    And pray, what is sophistication? Take Bollywood – loud, garish and imitative themes? Yes. How come it never wins any Hollywood or Cannes awards they crave while Korea and China have won several?

    Lastly what on earth is ‘introspection’? What we need is critical analysis and self-criticism. What is the Indian score here?
    (Sorry for digressing from the main topic.)

  88. Ravi Naik — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:20 pm  

    My, you boys really are only good at committing suicide.

    You sound like a jerk, Nav.

  89. Sid — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:21 pm  

    …doesn’t he.

  90. platinum786 — on 28th November, 2008 at 12:31 am  

    I don’t beat about the bush. In all fairness I don’t care. I like all of you will go to bed tonight, nobody is going to stay awake racked by horror. India fed the beast of Hindu right wing terrorists, now it’s grown out of control and is trying to overthrow the congress government. Nobody even reembered that there are elections in a large Northern state today, what boosts the BJP vote more than “muslim terrorists”.

    I will not condone the act, i do morally aknowledge it’s wrong and a crime and for the families of those affected it is tragic. For me, it’s not, it’s a news story.

    Are you E-stalking me then Nav? Didn’t know I had a fan base.

  91. Kulvinder — on 28th November, 2008 at 1:12 am  

    India fed the beast of Hindu right wing terrorists, now it’s grown out of control and is trying to overthrow the congress government

    What?

  92. Sunny — on 28th November, 2008 at 1:23 am  

    That’s all you could come up with?

    My, you boys really are only good at committing suicide.

    verrrrry mature.

  93. Sunny — on 28th November, 2008 at 1:25 am  

    Oh and I can believe the number of Israelis in India! I had touts coming up to me and speaking hebrew because they thought I was one! That’s how many there are :)

    Oh and I went to a huge new years party while in Kathmandu, celebrating the Jewish new year. so many people were there, unreal…

  94. fugstar — on 28th November, 2008 at 4:03 am  

    “Indian Muslims should demand that these criminals be dragged out of the hotels and duly hanged publicly, as murderers are under Shari’a law. The same Shari’a law that they are willing to kill innocent people for.”

    India’s Muslims never sanctioned these criminals, nationalistically they are just as victimised by these crimes as other citizens. These attacks were not anti hindu specifically, they were against the nation’s citizenry, guests and pride. Indian Muslims going blood curdling on these irresponsible, juvenile and evil people(with their tongues) probably wont have much affect on the situation on the ground or on public perceptions. Duas for everyone there. Saying things into the air hoping for a microphone cant really untie the knotted wound that have been inflicted on thousands and millions affected by this.

    People must collectively imagine and enact a way out of this sooner or later.

    An exleader of SIMI (a student muslim organisation thats likely to be under heavily increased scrutiny) was asked the following in a recent (pre-attack)tehelka interview.

    Interviewer – The Hindu Right alleges that the Muslim community does not denounce terror activity enough.

    Interviewee – This is a lie. We have spoken against terrorism consistently. But why should we do more? Are we accepting that there are terrorists among us? India has an enemity with Pakistan and gets blasts done in Karachi, they in turn get blasts done in Hyderabad – this has no relation with Islam or Muslims. They speak of “home-grown terror” – there is no such thing! They have tried so hard to prove links between Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar, but out of 20 crore Indian Muslims, there is not one! Not one! I say “homegrown terror” is either a figment or the product of the IB. What are these modules you are busting? They are blasting RDX but you are seizing AK 47s! The Muslim from Kerala who was recently killed in Kashmir – his mother publicly said, she will not accept his corpse. The parents of other arrested boys have said that if it is proved their children are involved in terror blasts, they will disown them and not oppose them being hanged. All this is just propaganda. It is just a way of psychologically denouncing us so much that Muslims themselves will not dare to say or even think any of these are wrong allegations.

  95. Nav — on 28th November, 2008 at 9:03 am  

    India fed the beast of Hindu right wing terrorists, now it’s grown out of control and is trying to overthrow the congress government. Nobody even reembered that there are elections in a large Northern state today, what boosts the BJP vote more than “muslim terrorists”.

    Just what is it with Muslims and conspiracy theories?!

    And no, I’m not e-stalking you but you’re such a massive failure of a pathetic excuse for a man that it’s hilarious to watch you go about your pathetic little life that you live vicariously through your online rantings :)

  96. Hermes — on 28th November, 2008 at 9:13 am  

    Chill Nav, I think Platinum sounds like a sad, spotty teenager with no mates.

  97. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2008 at 9:13 am  

    Have we established yet whether this was internal to India or external? I think that matters.

    Plutonium 786 is a complete and utter idiot.

    Both India and Pakistan are, for better or worse nuclear powers. Platinum seems to think, elsewhere, that Pakistan has the edge. Clearly, he has been reading too much of Little Green Footballs to pass any sort of diplomacy test. The concept of MAD – Mutually Assured Destruction – applies to Pakistan just as much as it applied to the Soviet Union or the USA. It is why ninkcompoops such as the mad and bad Platinum786 should be kept away from any nuclear trigger. The fact that Pakistan is a tad unstable worries the hell out of me. I’d expect the US to deploy some of it’s nuclear submarine fleet into the Indian Ocean. As a reminder to Islamabad that India is not alone.

    Though, given that the Pakistan Foreign Minister is talking sense, perhaps the risk, to Pakistan, of being blown off the planet, is diminishing.

    Don’t play with the big boys Platinum786.

  98. Nav — on 28th November, 2008 at 9:28 am  

    Hermes, I could see why you think that but even more sadly, platinum is in fact in his mid to late 20s… I’m convinced he’s a virgin…

  99. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2008 at 9:31 am  

    Err,

    Fugstar makes an extremely good point at 94. It is difficult to assume that 1.4 billion Muslims accept this version of Jihad, less we would be in World War Three, would we not?

    It is clear to me that the vast majority of Muslims do not subscribe to this insanity. So, lets cut them some slack? Or, alternatively, lets kick the mouthy Muslims in the balls. For they represent no-one but themselves.

    The idea that they represent anything other than themselves, wrapped in clingfilm is ridiculous.

  100. bananabrain — on 28th November, 2008 at 10:08 am  

    most of the israelis are in india to let off some steam after the army and to “find themselves”. unfortunately, because of the behaviour of the religious establishment in israel they tend to avoid anything jewish like the plague. you won’t find chabad (for all it is not part of the israeli religious establishment) mentioning what made them so anti-religion in the first place. on the whole i tend to admire chabad, they’ll go and provide support for other jews wherever they possibly can in the world, where no-one else will go, but their theology is not something i can subscribe to and, frankly, their stance on hinduism is just plain ignorant.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  101. Sid — on 28th November, 2008 at 10:19 am  

    There are people like my mate Raj Chandra, who wrote me this from India:

    Indian muslims do not need to condemn this act as ‘muslims’. That they do it as humans and Indians is enough. I am under no doubt that 99% of Indian muslims are appalled by this – as our hindus etc, etc. I wish India is able to, one day, move beyond these labels of religion, caste etc…
    Yes, these attackers need to be dealt with sternly. But we MUST also tackle the larger causes of disaffection within our communities that provides for frustrated citizens willing to partner with opportunist mercenaries to expedite their designs against humanity.

    This brought a lump to my throat. But I still believe that Indian muslims and muslims in general should display a loud, vocal show of force against Qutbian terrorists who purport to kill innocents in our name.

  102. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2008 at 10:52 am  

    Sid,

    Qutbian terrorists who purport to kill innocents in our name.

    It is up to Muslims to comprehensibly reject that. There are 1.4 billion Muslims, I’d have thought a tiny percentage actually agreed with the nutter that is Mr Quatib.

    But there you go.

  103. Sid — on 28th November, 2008 at 11:26 am  

    douglas, the fact that Qutbian politics have had zero acceptance with mainstream politics and that his brand of nihilism has never been embraced explains why nutters like this exist.

  104. Jai — on 28th November, 2008 at 11:48 am  

    It goes without saying that innocent Muslims will have been injured and possibly killed by the terrorists’ actions too. Their random attacks show that they’re not differentiating between Muslims and non-Muslims — just being in the vicinity is enough to make you a viable target.

  105. Jai — on 28th November, 2008 at 11:51 am  

    Incidentally, I’ve generally made a point these days not to engage in personal attacks against others across the internet unless I feel it’s absolutely necessary, especially as (frankly) I think it’s pretty weird behaviour for people to verbally abuse complete strangers they’ve never met.

    However, on this occasion, I think I’ll make an exception and state that it’s self-evident that “Platinum786″, whoever the hell he is, is a sadistic, twisted little motherfucker with a psychotic attitude towards Indians. At least he’s acknowledging that he is a racist, bigotted bastard in this matter, and clearly has no shame about it.

    I wonder why he would feel the need to go on the internet and express these “opinions” (such as they are) to countless anonymous strangers — especially as it will obviously provoke a counterresponse — unless it’s just for the “attention” or, as I implied earlier, a psychopathic desire to hurt people, especially those he enjoys hating.

    I’m not particularly impressed by “George” either, who has repeatedly and opportunistically jumped on the bandwagon during the past few days to stick the knife into India and Indians (and, today, Israelis too).

    Unfortunately, as most of us know, the internet does sometimes bring out the neurotic crazies from under their rocks, and South Asian-focused discussion forums are no different.

    To put some perspective on this, it’s worth remembering that there are plenty of BNP-types out there — people with a racist mentality towards South Asians in general, not just literal members of the BNP — who are probably viewing the ongoing events in Mumbai as “just” one bunch of pakis killing another bunch of pakis, and finding it even more amusing that (in their view) some dirty brown bastards from one paki group are gloating (or feel no empathy whatsoever) about the suffering of the other group in Pakiland, whilst simultaneously being safely ensconsed thousands of miles away here in Ol’ Blighty. Divide & Rule Zindabad.

    I see that, sometimes, nothing changes, whether it’s 1808, 1908 or indeed 2008. You short-sighted, tunnel-visioned fucking idiots.

  106. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2008 at 11:52 am  

    Sid,

    Are we not saying the same thing? Although I fail to understand this:

    and that his brand of nihilism has never been embraced explains why nutters like this exist.

    It doesn’t explain it. The new nutters seem to me to be independent of the nutters like him. I am a new found fan of Strictly Come Dancing, so as you’d expect, I think Mr Quitb is a complete idiot. In my honest opinion.

  107. Beavis — on 28th November, 2008 at 12:03 pm  

    Platinum786 is a youth worker in Derby, supposedly helping asian youth keep away from extremism. I wonder if his employers are aware of his views?

  108. Nav — on 28th November, 2008 at 12:07 pm  

    He works with children because it boosts his self-esteem to be around those with similar levels of intellect.

    Even if he was to spout his usual gobshite, I’m sure no one takes any notice.

    And how can you take him seriously when he postures on a forum and tells us he yearns for a free Kashmir but seems to have never actually been in the Pakistani army nor gone to Kashmir to help his “brothers”.

    The man’s a joke.

  109. fugstar — on 28th November, 2008 at 12:13 pm  

    not sure you folks really ‘get’ qutb in his time and place. I think he’s one of those literature types that shouldnt have been given nor taken a scholarship to study in the united states. It clearly ended up badly for him. Theres a time and a place for bringing extra-incidental axes to grind on stuff. We are talking of a country of over a billion people here, quite far from the orbit of north african revivalist movements of any flavour.

    You think those *kids* read Qutb? We’ll disagree forever on this but I dont think its useful to hold ‘primary thinker’ types responsible for what bad actions of tertiary splinters. Its a red herring for you anti-Islamic mojo types, even if it is an oft repeated and somewhat comforting slogan. A lot of people got a lot of matter wrong back then.

    South Asian Islam has its own intellectual currents also. zoom back 70 or 80 years and situate the problem in the growng chasm between the confused modernists and the wishful trad types in the All-India Muslim community. Post-partition antagonisms between the nation states are a factor, but the point is that since then the islamic intelligensia class is no longer in operation in India. I dont think if the crisis of leadership was ever resolved.

    its the absense of Guidance that enables misguidance of this magnitude.

    Its a mistake to think that ‘representativeness’ a value that you hold, is valued by a lot of the spokesmen you wish to kick in the balls. Its like effing and blinding in Spanish in a Chinese traffic jam.

    And to be honest, the political actors of hope that I see in India arent the Congress or the ‘brahmin Left’, its the Bahujan Samaj, who are bravely subverting several centuries of religious census play and class control.

    A while ago there was a report on the systematic and historical socio-economic depressive forces acting on the muslims of india. From afar i found it ‘informative’ in a quantitative sense. But heres what one guy thinks was going on. There are no Alquaeda cookies in this jar of problems.

    Tehelka – Is the Muslim community guilty of isolating and ghettoising itself? (The Sachar Committee Report)

    ex SIMI dude – The Sachar Report is a two-fold conspiracy. This is part of Congress politics – it does not want to do anything substantial, just indulge in tokenism. It had made many promises before elections but did not fulfill any, so it set up the committee. This wept crocodile’s tears. It wanted to prove to Muslims that they are in such a terrible position. The truth is, Muslims are not in such a bad position. Yes, government jobs are not available for us, and Muslims accept that. But the report did not map how the community has progressed through self-employment. Also, no matter how down trodden, very few Muslims will be entirely illiterate because they have to read the Koran. If you can read Urdu, you can read Hindi. Most Muslim kids get a madrassa education – not one paisa for this is given by the State. But if you consider even me illiterate, I have no defence. As the Judge in my case said, he only knows Koran and hadeez, he doesn’t know anything else. And if you term anyone who follows Islamic teachings as conservative, what can I say? So the Sachar Report was only a negative report, it wanted to assess where their strategies had got us, how low have Muslims fallen. It’s a pity, no one asked Yasin Patel. I would have told them, you don’t need a committee, just implement things.

    But if there is a bias in Education Ministries where crores are spent, what will Muslims get? You are asking me to introspect. But ghettoisation has become a kind of second nature for us. It is forced on us. Very few people have the energy and strength to think against the tide, ordinary people are just struggling to live. To tell you the truth though, no matter how much money the Muslim community puts up for its madrassas, it cannot be successful until the government fulfills our demand and gives us funds for our education. Our teachers at college level are paid Rs 2,500, whereas their secular counterparts would get around Rs 60,000 and the luxury of libraries and time and sabbaticals to study. How can our teachers compare? You cannot expect the same quality. This is one of the issues SIMI was emphasizing on – that as tax payers, the government should spend on our education, and on that education which as a community we want to give ourselves. Every community survives on the strength of its customs – be it religious or cultural custom. This is why I think the idea of a uniform common code is madness. You could have it in the US or European countries because there is so much homogeneity there. But you cannot compare India and US. You cannot compare India and Pakistan. India is a completely different thing. Totally different.

    Do you know when Bengal was under Islamic rule a visiting traveler said there was hundred percent literacy there. But after the Mutiny of 1857, the British systematically removed Muslims from the army, the civil services and from educational institutions. Fort William College – the first college to be set up by the British was done on Wakf property, but they did not admit a single Muslim student. There was a huge uproar, so then they included two. But there has been a systematic program of removing Muslims from the mainstream. To detail that is a long story.

    See, we want to keep our hearts open and talk, but there is so much intolerance now, no one wants to talk. Actually, political forces do not want us to get together and talk. Look at how much we have talked – but instead of you, if there was someone else here, there would have been blood spilled by now! (Laughs) At least you can tell Prakash Sharma (Bajrang Dal leader interviewed last week for this series) that you did manage to talk for four hours to a POTA-accused hard-core Muslim. We have lived together on this land for 1000 years, I don’t know why he feels they cannot talk to Muslims. The fact is, I came back from the US because no matter what, this is the country where I feel there is most acceptance and tolerance.

  110. Beavis — on 28th November, 2008 at 12:13 pm  

    I take your point, on PDF he’s now screaming about taking the first plane out if things escalate between Pakistan and India.

  111. douglas clark — on 28th November, 2008 at 12:27 pm  

    Jai @ 105,

    I agree completely with that. Our little corner of the internet has been largely free of self serving pieces of shit. It is when you go and read what he says elsewhere that it becomes clear that he is an entryist.

    This is what he said elsewhere:

    After much delay (probably years) I decided I’d join this forum and see what all the fuss is about for myself.

    Yes I am the same one from PDF, no I haven’t defected…. just visiting.

    Hope everyone is well. At first impressions the place looks pretty good, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting however.

    For those who don’t know me i’m a 23 year old British – Pakistani of Kashmiri origin, fiercly patriotic and pro military. Professionally i’m in the IT industry (and for the nth time….i’m not desktop support so i don’t know whats wrong with your printer…lol).

    Looking forwards to some lively debates….

    I’m fairly sure fiercly was spelled wrongly, but there you go, a pro military pretendy patriotic nutter.

    Clearly we need this sort of idiot to advise us.

    Platinum786, what do you have to say for yourself?

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