Umm, it could have happened. In 1948 Palestinians (Arabs) refused this plan, “shooting first” and have been suffering ever since.

Let’s start at the beginning.

1) If you want to pretend Israel is no more racist than France, be my guest. It shows a profound lack of knowledge about the predicament of the Palestinian citizens of Israel and it won’t get us closer to resolving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

2) Only anti-Semites are made uncomfortable by Jews. I don’t feel uncomfortable about Judaism or Jewish peoplehood. But I find the concept of an exclusivist Jewish state on historic, pluralistic Palestine as disturbing as an Apartheid South African state that privileges the ‘White’ settlers at the expense of the indigenous population.

3) You imply that because Palestinian citizens of Israel haven’t volunteered to leave their homes and land in what became Israel, they must appreciate Israeli ‘democracy’. Actually, Palestinian steadfastness (sumud) is a national characteristic and some inside Israel have spoken of citizenship as a form of resistance. Many Palestinians feel that the greatest mistake they made was allowing themselves to be forced into fleeing their homes and land in 1948 and 1967. Those who remained are not likely to leave now. But in asking why they don’t move to other Arab states you miss the entire point. As citizens of Israel, Israel ought to be the state of its non-Jewish Palestinian citizens as much as it is the state of its Jewish citizens. Unfortunately, this is not the case (unlike in France – where rights are accorded citizens based on their citizenship not on the basis of their ethno-religious identity). Those who call for Palestinian citizens of Israel to move if they don’t like the way they are treated by ‘their’ government sound like the ‘white’ Americans who called on African- Americans to leave the United States and ‘return’ to Africa if they took exception to their treatment by the US government before the civil rights movement became successful. I trust that equal rights will one day be obtained for all of Israel’s citizens.

4) Suggesting that there isn’t “a single similarly patriotic Palestinian of any prominence” who wants to turn either Israel or Palestine (or both) into a state for all its citizens only betrays your ignorance of Palestinian politics. But remember that we Palestinians do not have our own state, and that Israel’s current policies are speedily eroding the possibility of us ever obtaining independence in a viable state. Hence the problem.

5) If you want to have a (sensible) discussion about the recent Palestinian elections, I suggest you visit a thread with an appropriate title. I can personally recommend: http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2006/01/30/letter-from-ramallah/

Too bad there isn’t a single similarly patriotic Palestinian of any prominence.

Is that a joke? It’s *the* Jewish state. I bet the French character of the state is present in many French laws. And the Cherokee character of the Cherokee nation is present in many Cherokee laws.

“de facto discrimination between Jewish and Palestinian citizens.”

You know what “de facto” means right? What nation does not have de facto racism against minority citizens. How does this disqualify Israel as a democracy?

“Most importantly, the Israeli government has maintained an aggressive policy of land expropriation, adversely affecting Palestinian land and housing rights.”

Really? You think land has something to do with the conflict? I am shocked.

But not convinced at all. Sure there are ‘paradoxes’ inherent to a secular democratic Jewish state. There are many paradoxes inherent to Judaism…and this may be why we make many people uncomfortable. But I am not at all convinced that Israel not a democracy. And if all these Israeli Arabs (who do have representation in government the freedom to make websites like the one you cite) are so miserable, why don’t they move to any number of the wonderful Arab Muslim states surrounding them? (Hint: they are happier in Israel!)

In the meantime, perhaps spend some time perusing the website of Adalah – The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in israel. Here’s some of what they have to say:

“Discriminatory laws

Adalah’s report to the World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, issued August/September 2001 and entitled Institutionalized Discrimination Against Palestinian Citizens of Israel, identifies more than 20 laws that discriminate against the Palestinian minority in Israel. The report shows that the Jewish character of the state is evident in numerous Israeli laws. The most important immigration laws, The Law of Return (1950) and The Citizenship Law (1952), allow Jews to freely immigrate to Israel and gain citizenship, but excludes Arabs who were forced to flee their homes in 1947 and 1967. Israeli law also confers special quasi-governmental standing on the World Zionist Organization, the Jewish Agency, the Jewish National Fund and other Zionist bodies, which by their own charters cater only to Jews. Various other laws such as The Chief Rabbinate of Israel Law (1980), The Flag and Emblem Law (1949), and The State Education Law (1953) and its 2000 amendment give recognition to Jewish educational, religious, and cultural practices and institutions, and define their aims and objectives strictly in Jewish terms.

Government discrimination

Further, the discretionary powers entrusted to various government ministries and institutions – including budget policies, the allocation of resources, and the implementation of laws – results in significant de facto discrimination between Jewish and Palestinian citizens. For example, a report issued by the Ministry of Interior confirmed that Arab municipalities received a fraction of the total funds allocated by the national government per resident to Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories and to development towns populated exclusively by Jews. Moreover, the Ministry of Religious Affairs affords a small percentage of its budget to the Arab Muslim, Christian, and Druze religious communities. Funds for special projects such as the renewal and development of neighborhoods and improvements in educational programs, services, and facilities are also disproportionately allocated to Jewish communities. To date, Israeli authorities have rarely used their discretionary powers to benefit the Palestinians minority.

Land expropriation

Most importantly, the Israeli government has maintained an aggressive policy of land expropriation, adversely affecting Palestinian land and housing rights. For example, the National Planning and Building Law (1965), retroactively re-zoned the lands on which many Arab villages sit as “non-residential.” The consequence of this is that despite the existence of these villages prior to the establishment of the state, they have been afforded no official status. These “unrecognized Arab villages” receive no government services, and residents are denied the ability to build homes and other public buildings. The authorities use a combination of house demolitions, land confiscation, denial of basic services, and restrictions on infrastructure development to dislodge residents from these villages. The situation is severely acute for the Arab Bedouin community living in these unrecognized villages in the Naqab.”

Source: http://www.adalah.org/eng/backgroundlegalsystem.php

That is the main problem with racism in Israel. The discrimination is structural, institutionalised and state-sponsored, not incidental or accidental or limited to civil society. I know that you wouldn’t accept this if you experienced it (or perhaps if you yourself were better informed about it). So why not join those who are working to end it? There are many patriotic Israelis who are doing just that today – because they recognize the paradox of the self-procrlaimed “Jewish” and “democratic” state and want to see Israel tranformed into a state for all its citizens.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1694815,00.html

I’ll help: They can’t serve in the military. That is indeed controversial in my opinion. Everything else I’ve heard is just abstract emotional ranting.

Find some more if you actually want to try and learn about the situation rather than make bogus, alarmist claims of ‘racial segregation’ and ‘religous supremism’.

If you want to discuss something real, I’m willing. But the truth is, you guys know absolutely nothing about Israel or Judaism.

Either way, I’m getting tired of your selective reading. You want segregation, go for it. Just don’t expect true liberals to support it.

OK I’m sorry you are retarded.

I made the point about the KKK because you’re talking about establishing a state based on racial grounds. This is what you said:
Why is wanting a predominantly Jewish state racism?

Judaism is not a race, it is a religion, or a cultural practice according to you. Therefore, wanting exclusivity for a religion or race would still be ethnic cleansing if you opress people to achieve it. In the same way the govt of Saudi Arabia’s behaviour is bigoted, you are admitting that so is the state of Israel’s because it wants only people of a certain religion.

You also didn’t answer my point about how it claims to be a democracy when it wants to promote and sustain only people of one religion, and takes away the rights of outsiders. A democracy isn’t just about voting, it is also about civil liberties.

If I was debating with people as honest and intelligent as you, I have a feeling it would be a much more productive endevour. I think it’s time to move on.

Cheers

Glad to help — thank you for your kind words. I think Sunny is wrong in his perception of Sikhs misinterpreting their religion in this regard, but in order to keep this friendly I’m just going to have to “agree to disagree” with him

Apparently some sections of the Hindu community do believe that they can be Hindu and atheist simultaneously, but that’s to some degree because they view being Hindu as a cultural and ethnic/nationalist matter as well as something focused on religion.

Anyway, back to your debate about Israel…..