According to Racial Differences in Intelligence Table 6.1 page 81 a dozen different studies gives general IQ in India in the eighties. In Table 6.2 page 83 for Indians in Britain another dozen studies gives general IQ in the eighties and nineties.

That book is DEEPLY flawed with very dubious methodology, and no one is the scientific community takes it seriously.

Leiber & Stoller, Carole King, Carly Simon, Paul Simon, Randy Newman, George & Ira Gershwin, Neil Diamond, Elvis Presley, Amy Winehouse, Billy Joel, Bob Dylan, Mark Knopfler, Warren Zevon, Arlo Guthrie, Neil Sedaka..

And the whole panoply of modern American music.

Thank you

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for racial differences in intelligence. If you follow through the link provide in 56/57 you will find links to much published downloadable academic research on the subject.

According to Racial Differences in Intelligence Table 6.1 page 81 a dozen different studies gives general IQ in India in the eighties. In Table 6.2 page 83 for Indians in Britain another dozen studies gives general IQ in the eighties and nineties.

Jai 66 wrote … Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”? Depends on your point of view and how far back in history you wish to go. …

What is your point of view and how far back would you go with it?

Jai 66 wrote … Indians are disproportionately highly represented both in British medical schools … compared to our numbers in the British population as a whole — this certainly undermines any assertions of race-based intellectual inferiority and would, in fact, imply the opposite, if one were so inclined. … I made no such assertion.

In my opinion, success in medicine is not a proxy for intellect whereas success in mathematics or physics is.

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for racial differences in intelligence. If you follow through the link provide in 56/57 you will find links to much published downloadable academic research on the subject.

Jai 66 wrote … For specific empirical data … via the BMJ … This document makes no mention of IQ, intelligence or indeed of intellect generally.

Jai 66 wrote … President-elect Barack Obama … I have not followed the US election or Obama. For those who may be interested, Steve Sailer has actually written a book entitled “The Half-Blood Prince” which can be downloaded for free before publication. As a previous link was deleted I will not repeat it.

Jai 66 wrote … there is not exactly a shortage of extremely competent and highly-qualified Nigerian doctors currently working here in the UK. …

There is a shortage of of ethnic minority organ donors and foster parents in the UK.

Is there a shortage of British ethnic minority medics who do Voluntary Service Overseas, medical or otherwise? Do you have any information on this?

Linking this back to the topic of BNP & to immigration:

I come from ancestors living in a part of India where the current residents have a proven genetic link to the Assyrians/latter day Greeks. So I do not see myself as coming from an immigrant background. I don’t see myself as a Brit Asian (whatever that is) but as a European whose family came back home to Europe after a very long break.

“How about layprimate?”

How about not even using the term ‘Lay etc’ – it smacks of intellectual snobbery

“environmental differences … make a huge impact. … I agree that this is the case in extremis, as it is with heredity, don’t you agree?”

No I do not agree that such factors only kick in extremity. What does comes across is a one dimensional rationale

“Please state where I assert that on this blog or within any of the links I provided.”

I am saying that you have not covered it – again one dimensional

” Are you asserting that races exist without a biological difference between them? For example, there are large differences in the rates for prostate cancer and aggressive breast cancer between those of European and Sub-Saharan African descent of a biological origin.”

Read my comments (and the subject of this post relating to intelligence) they relate to neurones in the brain not other organs. But as you mention it, aggressive breast cancer has been linked to the use of deodorants/under arm shaving and decrease in women breast feeding (more prevalent in Europe) which point to environmental factors not race.

” races have different neurones … I cannot see such proof in any of the links you have provided. … Via the link provided at post 57/58, if you select “all comments” and search for “Rustle” you will find ten links to other CIF articles”

If only all education could be got from web links via CIF. See what I mean by being one dimensional. I must get the Associated Examining Board & various biology tutors to revoke my A level in biology as I have not relied upon the wisdom of such links.

“Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. ”

Read my comment it related 1) to the world outside of the UK & USA and 2) to someone who has over 20 years experience in physics – who from your race (and from what I infer also as to gender) argument should not be in that career. Perhaps she was in extremis…

“In my opinion this is an empirical observation of great weight”

And not due to the way some Jewish family bring their children up? It is tantamount to my saying that the 9 uncles (in one generation) on my fathers side go towards the empirical evidence that asians have certain ‘inherent abilities’ due to race when it is really the driver of asian’s family obsession with status, work ethic, high achievement, focus on education and those careers they see as a ‘true profession’. Question: are there similar environmental parallels with Jewish families?

Aryan supremacists with Holocaust revisionist impulses? Please give a jargon free version of this statement.

Easy: People from a northern/western European ethnic background who have misappropriated the term “Aryan” and have a malicious, self-serving agenda to undermine the current stance on the sheer scale and horror of the numbers murdered by the Nazis in WW2 (despite all the evidence), especially in relation to Jewish people who were on the receiving end of their genocidal agenda.

As an aside, I’m sure you can appreciate the irony of the word “Aryan” being hijacked and used by such people, considering that some of us from a subcontinental background are actually descended from the genuine article.

I do not recall research for other academic subjects, which may be what you are referring to.

That surprises me, considering how much publicity there has been during the past few years regarding the academic performance of Indians and Chinese people compared to other groups in the UK.

To my knowledge this has not been demonstrated so far.

See above.

Reportedly the India contains a great many disparate racial groups, which one(s) do you refer to?

Those of us currently residing in the UK.

Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”?

Depends on your point of view and how far back in history you wish to go.

Most of the research I have seen predominantly covers the USA, so please excuse my ignorance.

Given the fact that there have been numerous surveys in recent years confirming that Indians are disproportionately highly represented in the most prestigious areas of academic qualifications and professional success in the United States, I would have expected you to be aware of this.

There is actually a great deal of academic research, employing the statistical analysis of empirical data, which clearly demonstrates that the inequality of success of various racial groups within society is primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others

Given the fact that my father is a doctor and it is not exactly a secret that Indians are disproportionately highly represented both in British medical schools (approx. 1/3) and in the NHS itself — certainly a much, much higher percentage compared to our numbers in the British population as a whole — this certainly undermines any assertions of race-based intellectual inferiority and would, in fact, imply the opposite, if one were so inclined.

For specific empirical data, as a starting-point, here are the results of an academic study from 2004, via the BMJ:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=516656

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Here’s a question for you: Do you believe that President-elect Barack Obama’s brilliant academic background and subsequent success in American politics are a result of the “inherent abilities” he has inherited from his white maternal family rather than his Kenyan paternal family ?

If so, what about his wife Michelle, the descendent of slaves (at least w.r.t her family tree in America; her ancestry in Africa before that may well be very different indeed), who has a similarly outstanding academic and professional background ?

Incidentally, as an aside I should also mention that there is not exactly a shortage of extremely competent and highly-qualified Nigerian doctors currently working here in the UK.

persephone 62 wrote …1) environmental differences … make a huge impact. … I agree that this is the case in extremis, as it is with heredity, don’t you agree?

persephone 62 wrote … 2) You are ignoring how intelligence is affected by the neurones in the brain. … Please state where I assert that on this blog or within any of the links I provided.

persephone 62 wrote … All humans, regardless of race, are the same in biological terms. … Are you asserting that races exist without a biological difference between them? For example, there are large differences in the rates for prostate cancer and aggressive breast cancer between those of European and Sub-Saharan African descent of a biological origin.

persephone 62 wrote … races have different neurones … I cannot see such proof in any of the links you have provided. … Via the link provided at post 57/58, if you select “all comments” and search for “Rustle” you will find ten links to other CIF articles in the comment at “Jan 14 08, 6:53pm”, which in turn link to various external sources. I would suggest that you look again, if time permits.

persephone 62 wrote … Science should never be adjusted to fit propaganda. … I agree.

persephone 62 wrote … There is lots of information regarding the ‘inequality of success’.. ‘due to the hateful activity of others’. … Which is consistent with my statement “primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others”

persephone 63 wrote …“Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA.” … Again the assertion as to race bears little weight. … I disagree. Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. In my opinion this is an empirical observation of great weight.

That’s him. That’s the guy who called my partner a lesbian when she told him and his boys to get off her high street.

He was a bit older than in the picture. And out of uniform.

“Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA.”

I know a successful physicist (female and asian) who deals with other physicists all over the world. While there is a dearth of female asian physicists there is a wide variety as to other races globally. The latter is widening as more countries have the resources to invest in technology than ever before and because the UK are more willing (ie its a good revenue earner) to train physicists from other countries.

Again the assertion as to race bears little weight.

“There is actually a great deal of academic research, employing the statistical analysis of empirical data, which clearly demonstrates that the inequality of success of various racial groups within society is primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others”

“As best as I can determine it, the academic research clearly demonstrates the existence of races, together with significant differences in both intellect and behaviour, as it also does for male/female differences.”

Where do I start with an educated layman…excuse me or is it laywoman…

1) environmental differences (as per Sonia at 56) make a huge impact. There are lots of clinical psychology books (..also with lots of studies) on this aspect including how even conditions like schizophrenia can be abated/increased due to environmental differences

2) You are ignoring how intelligence is affected by the neurones in the brain.

It is the complexity of such links in the brain that affect ability. And these links are created through use as they also wane due to lack of use. All humans, regardless of race, are the same in biological terms. Unless you also think that different races have different neurones that are more or less created dependent upon race? I cannot see such proof in any of the links you have provided.

Perhaps your biology books were different to mine.

Science should never be adjusted to fit propaganda.

Especially when it is termed ‘instructive’

P.S It was empirical data that helped the launch of the thalidomide drug before its damaging side effects were revealed.

P.P.S There is lots of information regarding the ‘inequality of success’.. ‘due to the hateful activity of others’. I am surprised that an educated layperson such as yourself bypassed it all.

In reply to persephone 49 Bert posted several links to various threads at the Guardian’s CIF which were blocked as spam. Bert wished to reply to persephone 49 and also Jai 51 and as Bert’s opinions fit hand in glove with mine I did the honourable thing.

Fair enough?