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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Employers warn staff on BNP list face dismissal


    by Leon on 19th November, 2008 at 12:43 pm    

    The Guardian reports:

    The list of BNP members posted on the internet contains the details of people in a wide range of jobs. Some employers have made clear that membership of the far-right party is not consistent with their values.

    The police have called in independent investigators after claims that a serving officer is a member of the British National Party.

    The Association of Chief Police Officers said police are banned from becoming members of the BNP because it would damage race relations.

    “Membership or promotion of the BNP by any member of the police service, whether police officer or police staff, is prohibited,” said Acpo’s workforce development spokesman Peter Fahy.

    Good. I fully back the Police on this matter, with no qualms whatsoever.

    Update: The excellent Lancaster UAF blog is a good place to read more updates including this Radio DJ who’s lost his job after appearing on the list.



      |     |   Add to del.icio.us   |   Share on Facebook   |   Filed in: Current affairs, The BNP




    79 Comments below   |  

    1. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:54 pm  

      Me too

    2. roy — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:03 pm  

      Well lets hope the follow through, although what if the man doing the firing is also on the BNP list , you know the story about birds of a feather flock together and so on

    3. Kismet Hardy — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:56 pm  

      I’m down with the police thing (not surprised really) but I’m not sure you should sack a, say, doctor for his political affiliations beyond the workplace. Does he refuse to treat non-whites? Does he intentionally do a bad job when he does?

      Sorry to be unpopular, but all this does is bring out lynch mob mentality and I wasn’t crazy about the list of paedophiles being printed in the tabloids a while back either

      Privacy is sacred, you know?

    4. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:25 pm  

      Sorry to be unpopular, but all this does is bring out lynch mob mentality and I wasn’t crazy about the list of paedophiles being printed in the tabloids a while back either

      But you didn’t mind when it was in defense of your precious Shilpa Shetty…

    5. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:27 pm  

      Kismet, I’m completely with you on this one. It’s about ethics not just politics

    6. Tu S. Tin — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:55 pm  

      Some employers have made clear that membership of the far-right party is not consistent with their values

      I don’t know why this story makes me laugh. It’s wrong to be a party member ..but the party itself holds 46 seats.
      You may be dismissed as a police officer, teacher, clergy, prison guard even health care worker, but you can safely remain an elected official…haha

    7. sonia — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:34 pm  

      yep as kismet and el cid say. it would depend on a conflict of ‘interest’ etc. (e.g.if you were applying for a job at the racial equality commission or something like ‘Diversity Officer) rather than just holding the blanket idea that ‘racist’ people can’t have jobs of anykind. (not many people left working then eh?)

      and just to keep a bit of perspective: there are a lot of people who harbour racist views and aren’t members of the BNP/any political or other kind of organisation.

      and plus if you know someone is a registered member of something like BNP, they are open to more scrutiny that way really - so they’d be less likely to be able to be discriminatory, rather than someone whose views we aren’t aware of.

    8. Don — on 19th November, 2008 at 7:27 pm  

      Yes, it’s an ethical issue but one mitigated by the fact that it was one of their own who let the cat out of the bag. If it had been someone with a claim to being ‘progressive’ it would be a different conversation. The information is out there and it’s too late do do anything about it now.

      So I agree coppers and prison officers who are (legitimately) on the list should go. They knew the rules, good riddance.

      Others who hold jobs which give them any control or influence over the public at large (teachers, social workers, lawyers, driving examiners, immigration officials etc.) should reasonably expect a long and searching discussion over whether or not they feel comfortable with the stated ethos of the organisation which employs them and should certainly expect to be monitored to ensure that their views do not impact on how they carry out their duties. Some may lose their jobs or at least see promotion prospects blighted or contracts not renewed. Tough.

      Others who run small businesses might see some work dry up but not much, I would have thought. Very few people will check the list before deciding on their choice of decorator, caterer or pub. (I will, but I’m statistically insignificant). However, times are hard so I guess some might go bust. Tough.

      The comparison with paedo hysteria is legitimate, but while agreeing that publishing such a list is ethically wrong should we be expected to virtuously avert our eyes once it is out there? If you are a parent and a list of paedophiles was published, wouldn’t you check your neighbourhood to assess the risk?

      So may I put an ethical question? If you were a school governor on an interview panel to appoint a new teacher to a multi-ethnic school and you were choosing from three candidates, would it be ethical to check the list (while bearing in mind that it cannot be considered reliable)? And if one candidate showed up on it, how would you deal with that?

    9. Steve — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:01 pm  

      The Equality Act 2006 outlaws discrimination in employment based on philosophical belief.

      Any employer sacking someone just for being in the BNP would be on dodgy ground. The law also covers contractors and the police. The 2004 ban on police officers having BNP membership might even be illegal.

      You can sack people for what they do but not what goes on in their heads.

      The irony is that this act was brought in to protect Muslims against religious discrimination.

    10. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:07 pm  

      Should employees of the Crown Prosecution Service, barristers or the judiciary be allowed to be a member of any political party? If so, why? How about doctors, firemen or sewage workers? In which professions if any besides the Police are individuals deemed to be inherently unprofessional?

      Why is it that Police Officers are deemed sufficiently unprofessional that they are prohibited from joining the BNP and have to be tape recorded at work, whereas solicitors are not?

    11. Trofim — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:13 pm  

      When I worked in psychiatry, it was astonishing how many of the general public expressed the idea that some people should be locked up, simply by virtue of the fact that they had a label of schizophrenia, bipolar psychosis, whatever, without them doing anything in any way detrimental to themselves or society. It was enough that they belonged to the category “mad”, that their liberty should be curtailed, because everyone knows that mad people are more likely than “normal” people to lose control and let their beliefs turn into actions. I see this as analogous. BNP members are regarded as a special case, because they are seen as being at risk of letting their attitudes “spill out” and colour their actions at work. In other words, they can’t control themselves. We don’t make the same assumptions about e.g. Muslims, Conservatives, socialists and so on. We assume they are able to keep their attitudes separate from their work and are therefore safe to employ. It is interesting, therefore, to hear that the employers of a certain outed DJ never suspected that he was a BNP member, and that Golam Murtaza on the thread “BNP membership list leaks online” had previously regarded his local outed councillor as a nice bloke. This contradicts the assumption about BNP members, and undermines the rationale for regarding them as a special case.

      I don’t see why employees shouldn’t simply sign a contract guaranteeing that their personal values do not adversely influence their judgments. That should be sufficient. Dr Imran Waheed, spokesman for Hizb-ut-Tahir, was working for the NHS in Birmingham, last I heard. In fact I once had occasion to work closely with him, and it never occurred to me that he was a member of a movement which is proscribed in several countries, including Muslim ones. Why one rule for an employee of one “suspect” organisation, and a different one for others?

    12. Boyo — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:18 pm  

      Yes, sorry, but I disagree with sacking these people - the BNP may hold loathsome views, but it is not a terrorist organisation, nor is its position on, say, gays, any less offensive than those held by others - not least most monotheistic religions. They exist within a democracy and should be judged by their policies - their lack of support is a testament to the level-headedness of the British people. Persecuting them for holding misguided or whacky views will only promote sympathy. There are plenty of people whose views offend me but I wouldn’t want them hounded out of their jobs.

    13. Bhargavi — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:51 pm  

      agree … would much rather be treated by a BNP-card carrying doctor than one with HuT affiliations ….

      this witch hunting is crazy ……

      we should be asking that if it is carried through - should it be applied to all loathsome groups? Is McCarthyism being rehashed?

    14. fugstar — on 20th November, 2008 at 9:43 am  

      ^id rather be treated by a HuT medic than a BNP one if given a choice. its hardly comparable, unless you are thick or evil. muslim behaving medics are nodoubt under more scrutiny than ever these days.

      interesting how a lot of the professional spokespeople are playing the ’so long as it doesnt affect your work card’. except the police who are scared it might make them look more than a little rascist.

      Scariest thing about this episode is it shows how little privacy anybody has these days. no sooner had the list been obtained then people were google mapping it to unfair levels of ‘precision’.

    15. billericaydicky — on 20th November, 2008 at 9:58 am  

      The problem with sacking people over their membership of political parties is that, and this is certainly the case with the BNP, is that they can portray themselves as victims and martyrs.

      This was definately found in places like Barking and Dagenham when they took their twelve seats in 2006. A saturation point was reached where we just couldn’t get anymore information out to electors because they had started to see the BNP as being victimised for views that many agreed with.

      There is, as has been mentioned above, the question of McCarthy style witch hunts. The BNP have to be defeated politically and demands for them to be banned from the likes of Operation Black Vote only make the situation worse.

      If the anti fascist movement has anything going for it it is the fact that it has the moral superiority of the struggles against fascism over the last eighty years. That must not be squandered by victimising someone by denying them employment, something which could follow them around for the restof their lives.

      Some of Hollywood’s best talent never worked under their own names for the rest of their liveseven though McCarthy was quickly confined to history. It must also be remembered that many of those blacklisted were communists and the apologists for a regime in the Soviet Union that was even more murderous than that of Hitler.

      It is ironic that some of the most vociferous voices calling for bans and sackings come from the far left. Groups like the Socialist Workers Party and the old CP around the Morning Star all want a state in this country which would be little different to the ones that existed in Eastern Europe. One party states with secret police forces, no human rights etc, etc.

      If we are going to be even handed about this then a sacked BNP member could equally say that all those teachers and social workers who are members of the SWP should be sacked as well for their totalitarian and anti democratic views.

      Far too many people who post here object to the BNP and other far right groups because of their racism. That is only one facet of their complex make up. The main objection to these groups should be that they are opposed to the open society that we have in this country and that they all want to abolish for some other form of government.

      It must be remembered that fascism has killed far more white people than any other ethnic group. I remember a photograph in the house when I was growing up of my mother and her three brothers. One, uncle George, I never knew as he was killed by a German bomb in what was called the “May Blitz”, the massive Luftwaffe destruction of British cities in the Spring of 1941.

      This thing cuts both ways, people who call for sackings and blacklists should review their own political opinions. Vile as the policies of the BNP are there are groups and people on what is called the left who are equally as anti democratic.

      I’m not sure what is going to happen on this one. It could rebound in Griffins favour if people see the BNP as being victimised for opinions that a lot of white people agree with.

    16. Boyo — on 20th November, 2008 at 10:54 am  

      TBH my own (utterly unscientific) view is that while the leadership of the BNP are twisted racists, most of their VOTERS are disempowered and fearful working class people abandoned by the left (black as well as white - or “black and white unite: against the muslims” as one, unofficial, BNP slogan goes).

      I resist BD’s mix up of fascism with racism though - the racist nature of the BNP is, ironically, one of the few things preventing the rise of a genuine fascist party in the UK: ie, an anti-democratic reactionary block, which was the original conception of fascism under Mussolini and was, actually, spectacularly successful in that it survived for 20 years until Benito miscalculated by going in with the Nazis (much to the disappointment of Italy’s Jewish League of Fascists, as you can imagine). The Spaniards survived to the 1970s.

      Ironically racism is a bullwark against fascism. This is why the Left ignore the working class at their peril - in these difficult times a non-racist fascist party of “strong men” could conceivably emerge. One should not fall into the trap of regarding history as a progressive force - it is cyclical by nature. In short, it ain’t over, till it’s over…

    17. soru — on 20th November, 2008 at 11:03 am  

      The thing that strike me about the list is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone remotely famous on it. There must be about 50,000 celebrities in the country, if the BNP has even 0.1% support there must be a few hundred BNP supporters who are at the level you would vaguely have heard of them if reminded: ex-BB contestants, pensioned-off comedians, guys who wrote a book.

      Is it that there people like that on the list, but the libel laws are preventing them being named? Or did the BNP have a two-tier membership list, and only the little people got leaked?

    18. billericaydicky — on 20th November, 2008 at 11:30 am  

      Boyo,

      Your are certainly correct about Mussolini, there were many prominent Italian Jews on the march on Rome and in the party and it wasn’t until Italy started to do so badly after El Alamein in Oct 1942 and became totally dependent on Hitler that they brought in racial laws.

      Racism wasn’t a part of the make up of the Francoist state at all and Franco was very proud of his Moroccan troops who were totally loyal. One of the first things he did after the seizing of Spanish Morocco, much bigger then than now, was to enlist Muslim clerics in an anti communist pact depecting the government in Madrid as against Islam.

      You are right to say that the leadership of the BNP are racists but that many, I would say most, of those who vote for them aren’t. That is simply what comes across on the doorsteps of Barking, Dagenham and points East.

      A poll commission by Searchlight and carried out by the Rowntree Trust found that 75% of Londoners would never vote for the BNP under any circustances. Even those BNP voters that I have talked to cite a range of reasons for why they did so.

      There is a real feeling of abandonment amongst sections of white society especially in the lower income parts of it. The government is really running scared about the possibility of a party of the far right on the size of some of the European ones coming into existence. Do not rule out the possibility of this leak being coordinated with the launch of the campaign I mentioned earlier about racial attacks on white people, the BNP’s biggest to date.

      The debate generated all over the net has been incredible and I find it interesting that so many people on the left are not calling for people to lose their jobs over this.

      It is generating a real and long overdue debate on how some of the most vocal anti BNPers are members of political parties that are as intolerant of democracy as the BNP. What do Picklers think on this one?

    19. Dave S — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:10 pm  

      billericaydicky @ 19:

      It is generating a real and long overdue debate on how some of the most vocal anti BNPers are members of political parties that are as intolerant of democracy as the BNP. What do Picklers think on this one?

      Absolutely. The authoritarian left are nearly as despicable as the authoritarian right.

      It is authoritarianism which is despicable. The specifics of it - though very significant - are secondary, in my view.

      Actually though, the BNP aren’t a right wing party when it comes to economics. They are sort of centre-left, coupled with ultra-nationalism.

      See this page on Political Compass for a two-dimensional axis of some of the British Political parties.

      The SWP (for example) claim to be against the BNP, but actually, on that scale, they’d probably be nearer to the BNP than any of the other parties plotted (though more to the left).

      The SWP are authoritarian as hell (certainly in line with the BNP on the authoritarian / libertarian scale there), it’s just that they aren’t racists to boot.

      So if this was a three-dimensional axis with a racist / anti-racist dimension, the SWP and the BNP would be far apart on that one. But as it stands, in two dimensions, they are basically pretty similar to each other.

    20. Bert Rustle — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:26 pm  

      Nighjack has a post on Police Officers in the BNP

      http://nightjack.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/thats-a-negative-yankee-ten/#comments

    21. Bhargavi — on 20th November, 2008 at 2:55 pm  

      Fugstar @ 14
      “^id rather be treated by a HuT medic than a BNP one if given a choice. its hardly comparable, unless you are thick or evil. muslim behaving medics are nodoubt under more scrutiny than ever these days.”

      Actually as a Dr myself - I find that there are increasing levels of unacceptable prejudices held by “muslim-behaving medics” which are accommodated due to reactions such as yours ….

      I reassure you that I am neither thick nor evil … but instead shocked by the way in which people’s religious values are allowed to affect how they practice whilst we weed out those with unsavoury political beliefs …

      Bush is announcing a new code around freedom of conscience in healthcare … in essence opening the doors for people to refuse to provide services on the basis of their religious beliefs - be it abortion, or contraception.

      We sholdn’t be witch hunting - we should be ensuring that standards and rights are protected irrespective of political or religious beliefs …

    22. sonia — on 20th November, 2008 at 3:35 pm  

      19 Dave S - good points

    23. fugstar — on 20th November, 2008 at 4:55 pm  

      well i hope i dont have to have any interaction with the health services in my short life. besides the professions are generally institutional reproduction engines for the conservative ans aspirant classes.

      I wonder if there is any evidence for bad practices linked to political belief. ie. refusal of an HT flavoured doctor to perform sex change operations pre caliphate revival? or intentionally bad treatment out of racial dislike from a bnp medic.

    24. So What! — on 20th November, 2008 at 9:20 pm  

      As a person of colour I prefer to see the skin heads and BNP because at least I can see them. The worst racism is the kind that stops you getting a promotion or a job under the banner of equal rights. At least the BNP are upfront unlike the “NEW” Tory party! Most institutions are racist and all people are prejudice in some way or the other. The BNP are a legal political party and aren’t spurting anything worse than what the Torys were in the late 60’s and early 70’s. To me the conservatives are more dangerous.

    25. lietuvis — on 20th November, 2008 at 10:11 pm  

      And why three Lithuanian Nationals are there in the list?????

    26. the g — on 21st November, 2008 at 12:24 am  

      download bnp list from here http://worldisours.co.nr/

    27. Kismet Hardy — on 21st November, 2008 at 9:43 am  

      “But you didn’t mind when it was in defense of your precious Shilpa Shetty…”

      LEON, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, HIS GODDESS, AND TWO OF HER FITTEST MATES THROWN IN TOP, is that all I’m remembered here for? I swear I said something interesting about something else once or twice here, about, um, something or the other.

      In that instance, I was defending the woman I love(d), but seeing as for all my campaigning she completely refused to acknowledge my existence, she can go spin on her fake one. Hu-rumph.

      Now the BNP, I have no love (or sexual desire for). Let me explain it through the poster I saw while nursing a bruised cock at A&E yesterday

      It had the word PAIN, blown up into smitherines, with the strapline: Obliterate pain. Solpadene Plus.

      Looking at the poster, with the word cracked to pieces with a volcanic explosion all around it, frankly, gave me a headache. I wanted to see the pain soothed, not bombed to fuck.

      And here’s the thing. The BNP are a PAIN. But blowing them up (or out of proportion) is not the answer. The opposite of pain is relief. And you don’t get no relief from hatred

      See Leon? I can talk about something other than Ms Shetty. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I must return to pleasuring my blow-up sheep doll Shilpa (the similarity in name is merely coincidental)

    28. Leon — on 21st November, 2008 at 10:36 am  

      is that all I’m remembered here for?

      Hey I got a long memory when it comes to people that insult me over talking sense about idiocy…:D

    29. Kismet Hardy — on 21st November, 2008 at 11:26 am  

      Well, if you want to be known as the Elephant Man…

      :-)

    30. WessexWyvern — on 21st November, 2008 at 1:43 pm  

      oK HOW ABOUT BANNING COMMUNISTS AND ALSO PEOPLE WHO ARE IN MUSLIM ORGANISATIONS WHO SPREAD HATE AGAINST JEWS AND CHRISTIANS

      Since the BNP is a legal political party. The Scottish Nationalist Party and many of its supporters are anti English how about banning them from places of work in England.

      If its ok to have a Scottish or Irish or Welsh nationalist party , then its fine to have an English Nationlist Party that wants to leave the union and decide who it lets into England. There are so many left wing hypocrites .

      wHATS NEXT BANNING PEOPLES IN JOBS IF THEY DONT AGREE WITH IMMIGRATION AND DONT HAVE FRIENDS WHO ARE PART OF THE MINORITIES.

      Since when has there been a BNP terroriest bombing, unlike some of the supporters of Sinn fein and some unionst parties etc

    31. WessexWyvern — on 21st November, 2008 at 1:49 pm  

      and for those who dont dont know , The Wyvern was the Saxon Emblem of Wessex led by King Alfred the Great

    32. WessexWyvern — on 21st November, 2008 at 1:51 pm  

      Please do list terrorist bombings by BNP or any legal
      English Nationalist organisation

      Argh none - thought so

    33. Kismet Hardy — on 21st November, 2008 at 2:07 pm  

      Wyvern without you

      I can’t liiiiiiive

      Wyvern without youuuuuuu

    34. persephone — on 21st November, 2008 at 3:52 pm  

      @31 history lessons are always interesting. As is aligning yourself to King Alfred the Great.

      Wessex Wyvern, you don’t need to worry about the immigrant invasion of vikings. The Danes don’t want to settle in the UK in their droves anymore.

      But King Alfred was a wise man. He made peace with the Vikings when he realised he would never be able to get rid of them didn‘t he? That was after he paid them to keep the peace. His greatest achievement was to unify Britain by demolishing the fiefdoms of insular & racially different ethnic groups who each thought they could separately lay claim to England. Of that I heartily approve.

    35. Parvinder — on 21st November, 2008 at 4:22 pm  

      ‘Since when has there been a BNP terroriest bombing…’

      Robert Cottage, three times BNP candidate, was jailed in 2007 for having stockpiled chemicals, bomb making equipment and rocket launcher.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6923933.stm

      Jon Laidlaw, who told police he was a BNP member and wanted to kill all black people, was convicted in Feb 2007 after a shooting spree on the London Underground
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1543599/Race-attacker-jailed-for-Tube-shooting.html

      David Copeland, ex-BNP terrorised London with a series of nail bombs targeting the black, Asian and gay communities. His third bomb, left in the Admiral Duncan pub in Soho, killed three people. Copeland told police that he wanted to ignite a race war to encourage white people to vote BNP.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/781755.stm

      Need we say more?

    36. Sid — on 21st November, 2008 at 4:33 pm  

      f**cking heathen savages

    37. Ravi Naik — on 21st November, 2008 at 6:58 pm  

      ‘Since when has there been a BNP terroriest bombing…’
      Need we say more?

      It would be a BNP terrorist bombing if it was organised by the BNP.

    38. WhitDawg — on 21st November, 2008 at 10:18 pm  

      Just to lighten the thread slightly, I stumbled upon this earlier today:

      YouTube - Hitler’s BNP membership gets leaked …

      Warning: Not home or work safe, contains swearing.

      … but it is very funny.

    39. Pete — on 22nd November, 2008 at 11:18 am  

      Wow what next? Members of the BNP wearing a yellow star?

    40. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 7:36 am  

      Tonight, BBC Radio 4 20:00 The Moral Maze

      … should a person’s political views ever disqualify them from doing a job?

      Some members of the BNP in professions like the police and prison service, face losing their job after the leaking of the party’s membership list. While others, for example, teachers will not.

      Where do we draw the lines over freedom of belief and expression?

      Should we have a right not to be offended or have we lost our nerve over freedom of expression and are we becoming a more intolerant, illiberal society?

      PANEL: Kenan Malik; Clifford Longley; Michael Portillo; Melanie Phillips …

      Meanwhile, Police Sergeant Rajendra Joshi, writing in SocialistWorkeronline
      Police officer explains how racism row shakes the Met

      … Shocking news … Tariq Ghaffur … race discrimination … astonishingly timed … Macpherson Report … Stephen Lawrence … Muslim Police Association … National Black Police Association … institutional racism. … chilling message … broad denial … academic liberalism … “diversity” … anti-racism. … liberal … anti-racist. … Nelson Mandela … racial jibes … physical abuse … racist … Stephen Lawrence … racism ,,, post-Macpherson …

      In the same publication Anindya Bhattacharyya writes Seize this chance to isolate the Nazis

      … fascist British National Party … Nazis … Disarray … Simon Darby … said, “If we find out the name of the person who published this list it will turn out to be one of the most foolish things they have done in their life.”[emphasis added] … passive racists … Nazi activist … Fascists … Nazis … racists … fascists … campaign to get the Nazis out of public service jobs such as teaching and health. Police officers should be fired on the spot[emphasis added] … fascism …

    41. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 11:03 am  

      Martin Wingfield has a post, reportedly from a serving British Soldier Just in…

      …Have just read Part One Orders today - this is where official Army Policy is distributed on a daily basis and there was a WHOLE paragraph about the British National Party!

      Every soldier in the British Army (ie 100,000 troops) read this daily - they have to by order. The Navy and RAF have similar orders, so add about 40,000 extra personnel on.

      It says that “any serviceman/woman is entitled to join ANY political party he/she wishes INCLUDING the BNP and to attend political meetings etc. However they must not attend in uniform or indulge in behaviour that will bring the forces into disrespect. They must not attend marches or demonstrations or be involved in an official capacity with any political party. …

    42. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 12:01 pm  

      But you didn’t mind when it was in defense of your precious Shilpa Shetty…

      Leon, didn’t I read comments from you on another thread in response to something El Cid said about PC Blakelock and what Bernie Grant said about lynchmob violence towards the police in Tottenham, even after El Cid described witnessing a white police officer almost being lynched by a mob before his very eyes. You basically gave an apologia for that violence. Real violence. Real mob rule which saw innocent people being hurt and murdered.

      I’m just saying. People pick their reasoning very selectively in life.

    43. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 12:07 pm  

      Has anyone seen the picture of John Tyndal, founder of the BNP, standing in front of a picture of Hitler, wearing stormtrooper uniform, wearing a swastika?

      The BNP cannot change their colours. Their leadership is full of racist, anti-semitic, aryan supremacists. As stupid as they are, the BNP have been quite wily in fomenting fear and hatreds. My concern with all of this is quite simple: don’t we risk making martyrs of them at some point? Are we giving them the ammunition they need?

      On one hand, I don’t lose any sleep if public servants face action because of their membership of a racist political party like the BNP. On the other, I worry about it in principle, and on the basis of giving them a point of persecution under which they can gain further support.

    44. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 12:25 pm  

      billy 43 wrote … The BNP cannot change their colours. Their leadership is full of racist, anti-semitic, aryan supremacists. As stupid as they are, the BNP have been quite wily …

      How do you view Sinn Féin? The leadership of Sinn Féin includes deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness, who was a leading figure in the Provisional IRA, an organisation whose members did rather than those of the BNP have been accused of.

      Has not Ken Livingstone met with their leadership, as has Labour and Conservative Prime Ministers?

      Does anyone know if any of the the Sinn Féin leadership have appeared on the BBC’s Question Time or Any Questions?

    45. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 12:32 pm  

      How do you view Sinn Féin? The leadership of Sinn Féin includes deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness, who was a leading figure in the Provisional IRA, an organisation whose members did rather more than abuse or assault people.

      Bait and switch, ain’t going to work fella. I’m not a fan of theirs either.

      My greatest desire is that the BNP campaign in their true colours. They hedge and hum and cough too much. Their leadership really are cut from the cloth of the old school neo-nazis. The Jewish conspiracy really is behind everything. The ‘white race’ really is under attack from black people. That’s what their leadership believes. Holocaust revisionism is a major issue for them. Most of their voters aren’t like that though. Most of them are just taken in by the flag waving, fear mongering, we-stand-up-for-you rhetoric in a time of concern over a number of issues.

      They know they can’t do that though. They’d be shown up for the lunatic Hitler sympathetic Aryan supremacist cranks that they are. So there is a constant tension and shame and paranoia in their collective body. They know what they really stand for underneath it all is pathetic, moronic, and wrong. But they can’t help feeling the way they do. They just can’t help their aryan supremacist, racist, anti-semitic selves. Collett with his ‘the Jews must have done something to deserve that, no smoke without fire’ mentality. Stand on that platform and speak your minds chaps.

      I’d still think you were a gang of c****, but I’d respect you for at least being honest about it. The way they are now, you’re just cowards as well as being c****.

    46. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 1:05 pm  

      billy 45 wrote … Bait and switch … Not at all.

      To be explicit, given that the Ruling Class have accepted Sinn Féin into the UK Government then why not the BNP?

    47. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 1:11 pm  

      To be explicit, given that the Ruling Class have accepted Sinn Féin into the UK Government then why not the BNP?

      False comparison. Different contexts. Bait and switch.

      Bert, do you support the BNP?

      Do you contest that the leadership of the BNP are racist, anti-semitic Aryan supremacists with Holocaust revisionist impulses?

    48. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 5:05 pm  

      Billy 47 wrote … Different contexts. … Please provide a description of these contexts, as you perceive them and highlight the differences. I would hazard a guess that the contexts are not wholly incomparable but I have been unable as yet to develop this.

      Billy 47 wrote … Bait and switch. … Please see my reply above, post 46.

      Billy 47 wrote … do you support the BNP? … Who I vote for in a secret ballot is a secret. However I point out that I do support logical deductions and conclusions drawn from the statistical analysis of empirical data. Implicitly you must also, as the electronic devices required for blogging would not exist otherwise.

      Furthermore, such analysis demonstrates quite clearly that the Egalitarian Fiction promoted by the Establishment Party is at variance with reality. I have posted quite a few links on this blog demonstrating the same, which presumably can be found by search.

      Billy 47 wrote … Do you contest that the leadership of the BNP are racist, anti-semitic Aryan supremacists with Holocaust revisionist impulses? … Reportedly the BNP allude to or possibly even explicitly acknowledge that races do exist and that there are significant differences in behaviour and intellect between races. However the academic research is overwhelming on this topic.

      Anti-Semitic? I presume that you man Jewish Semites? Reportedly they are pro-Israel and they have Jewish councillors.

      Aryan supremacists with Holocaust revisionist impulses? Please give a jargon free version of this statement.

    49. persephone — on 26th November, 2008 at 5:20 pm  

      ” significant differences in behaviour and intellect between races ”

      I am not sure whether you are suporting or merely stating this? Please clarify this & provide what academic research you are referring to.

    50. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 5:36 pm  

      persephone 49 I have posted many comments and links on this subject at PP, generating lengthy correspondence. Unfortunately a blog search does not locate them but presumably site administration could.

      There is actually a great deal of academic research, employing the statistical analysis of empirical data, which clearly demonstrates that the inequality of success of various racial groups within society is primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others.

      For example, Linda Gottfredson, Professor of Education and co-director of the Delaware-Johns Hopkins Project for the Study of Intelligence and Society at the University of Delaware has a great many published academic papers which are nonetheless accessible to the educated layman on the subject, and also some newspaper articles. These can be found here: http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/index.html#Opinion

    51. Jai — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:13 pm  

      There is actually a great deal of academic research, employing the statistical analysis of empirical data, which clearly demonstrates that the inequality of success of various racial groups within society is primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others.

      Rhetorical question: Along with Chinese people, Indians in the UK outperform all other racial groups in academic matters. Can those of us from an Indian background therefore acknowledge our inherent intellectual superiority over white people, including the majority so-called “indigenous” population of Britain ?

      And would the BNP, its supporters, and those of a similar mindset be prepared to do the same ?

    52. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:27 pm  

      49 persephone wrote … I am not sure whether you are suporting or merely stating this? Please clarify this & provide what academic research you are referring to. …

      As best as I can determine it, the academic research clearly demonstrates the existence of races, together with significant differences in both intellect and behaviour, as it also does for male/female differences.

      I post a link from the Guardian CIF below which contains a great many links to academic research which in the main is accessible to the educated layman.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jan/14/whoarethesemen?commentid=3a8f5bde-24c6-4f00-8d18-09090ff293cb

      I suggest that my comments therein are helpful and on occasion instructive.

    53. billy — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:43 pm  

      Hey everyone, click on this link to see a picture of John Tyndall, the founder of the BNP

      http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/images/BNP_JohnTyndall02.gif

      He’s the chap on the left.

      Our impulse, when we look at that picture, is to laugh. Because there is something very comical about it. The delusion, the stupidity of it all. But these people exist. Hitler worshipping white supremacist racists, anti-semitic in tooth and claw, believing in the old lies of Jewish conspiracy, that ‘the Black races’ are engaged in an annihilative war against white people. They exist in the leadership of the British National Party. As I said before, they have spent lots of time putting lipstick on the pig that they are. Most of those who vote for them are not nazis. They’re just alienated people taken in by their fear mongering rhetoric. But the leadership of the BNP is nazi. It really is the neo-nazi machine of the United Kingdom. And they will always fuck up, because a Nazi can never help himself from betraying their true ideas and prejudices.

    54. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:45 pm  

      Jai 51 wrote … Along with Chinese people, Indians in the UK outperform all other racial groups in academic matters. …

      False. Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. I do not recall research for other academic subjects, which may be what you are referring to.

      Jai 51 wrote … Can those of us from an Indian background therefore acknowledge our inherent intellectual superiority over white people, including the majority so-called “indigenous” population of Britain ? … To my knowledge this has not been demonstrated so far. Reportedly the India contains a great many disparate racial groups, which one(s) do you refer to? Most of the research I have seen predominantly covers the USA, so please excuse my ignorance.

      Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”?

    55. Bert Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:50 pm  

      51 Jai wrote … Along with Chinese people, Indians in the UK outperform all other racial groups in academic matters. …

      False. Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. I do not recall research for other academic subjects, which may be what you are referring to.

      Jai 51 wrote … Can those of us from an Indian background therefore acknowledge our inherent intellectual superiority over white people, including the majority so-called “indigenous” population of Britain ? … To my knowledge this has not been demonstrated so far. Reportedly the India contains a great many disparate racial groups, which one(s) do you refer to? Most of the research I have seen predominantly covers the USA, so please excuse my ignorance.

      Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”?

    56. Rand — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:54 pm  

      Reply to Jai 51 … Along with Chinese people, Indians in the UK outperform all other racial groups in academic matters. …

      False. Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. I do not recall research for other academic subjects, which may be what you are referring to.

      Jai 51 wrote … Can those of us from an Indian background therefore acknowledge our inherent intellectual superiority over white people, including the majority so-called “indigenous” population of Britain ? … To my knowledge this has not been demonstrated so far. Reportedly the India contains a great many disparate racial groups, which one(s) do you refer to? Most of the research I have seen predominantly covers the USA, so please excuse my ignorance.

      Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”?

    57. Rand — on 26th November, 2008 at 6:56 pm  

      Reply to persephone 49 … I am not sure whether you are suporting or merely stating this? Please clarify this & provide what academic research you are referring to. …

      As best as I can determine it, the academic research clearly demonstrates the existence of races, together with significant differences in both intellect and behaviour, as it also does for male/female differences.

      I post a link from the Guardian CIF below which contains a great many links to academic research which in the main is accessible to the educated layman.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jan/14/whoarethesemen?commentid=3a8f5bde-24c6-4f00-8d18-09090ff293cb

      I suggest that my comments therein are helpful and on occasion instructive.

    58. Rand — on 26th November, 2008 at 7:06 pm  

      In reply to persephone 49 … I am not sure whether you are suporting or merely stating this? Please clarify this & provide what academic research you are referring to. …

      As best as I can determine it, the academic research clearly demonstrates the existence of races, together with significant differences in both intellect and behaviour, as it also does for male/female differences.

      I post a link from the Guardian CIF below which contains a great many links to academic research which in the main is accessible to the educated layman.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jan/14/whoarethesemen?commentid=3a8f5bde-24c6-4f00-8d18-09090ff293cb

      I suggest that my comments therein are helpful and on occasion instructive.

    59. sonia — on 26th November, 2008 at 7:47 pm  

      well duh. there seems to be a lot of odd thinking here, thinking of ‘race’ in very hard and fast terms.

      research can show that a group of people perform better than another group of people, and has done. the question is then whether you attribute it to a “genetic” characteristics of the group, or those relating to the environment (e.g. socioeconomic classification) .

      its the old thing - black kids did worse on IQ tests, so some said ah this is a sign black people have smaller brains or something. which has been widely discredited, and acknowledged to me much more about a matter of environment/attitudes towards studying/cultural attitudes towards knowledge. race after all, is simply a social construction of ‘group’ where people choose to only breed with others they see as belonging to the same group. the fact that after a while, just like dog breeding, you get people who look similar, is then hardly suprising. boom! and then people seem to think ‘race’ always existed, is from God or Darwin or something like that. rubbish, you could create a race in the next 10 years if you so fancied it.

    60. Don — on 26th November, 2008 at 8:14 pm  

      Bert, if you have changed your handle to Rand that’s fair enough. But maybe you should mention it or you risk being mistaken for a sock-puppet.

    61. Bert rand Rustle — on 26th November, 2008 at 8:32 pm  

      Don 57 That’s the way to do it!

      In reply to persephone 49 Bert posted several links to various threads at the Guardian’s CIF which were blocked as spam. Bert wished to reply to persephone 49 and also Jai 51 and as Bert’s opinions fit hand in glove with mine I did the honourable thing.

      Fair enough?

    62. persephone — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:47 am  

      Bertrand, thank you for responding.

      “There is actually a great deal of academic research, employing the statistical analysis of empirical data, which clearly demonstrates that the inequality of success of various racial groups within society is primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others”

      “As best as I can determine it, the academic research clearly demonstrates the existence of races, together with significant differences in both intellect and behaviour, as it also does for male/female differences.”

      Where do I start with an educated layman…excuse me or is it laywoman…

      1) environmental differences (as per Sonia at 56) make a huge impact. There are lots of clinical psychology books (..also with lots of studies) on this aspect including how even conditions like schizophrenia can be abated/increased due to environmental differences

      2) You are ignoring how intelligence is affected by the neurones in the brain.

      It is the complexity of such links in the brain that affect ability. And these links are created through use as they also wane due to lack of use. All humans, regardless of race, are the same in biological terms. Unless you also think that different races have different neurones that are more or less created dependent upon race? I cannot see such proof in any of the links you have provided.

      Perhaps your biology books were different to mine.

      Science should never be adjusted to fit propaganda.

      Especially when it is termed ‘instructive’

      P.S It was empirical data that helped the launch of the thalidomide drug before its damaging side effects were revealed.

      P.P.S There is lots of information regarding the ‘inequality of success’.. ‘due to the hateful activity of others’. I am surprised that an educated layperson such as yourself bypassed it all.

    63. persephone — on 27th November, 2008 at 1:55 am  

      Bertrand @ 53

      “Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA.”

      I know a successful physicist (female and asian) who deals with other physicists all over the world. While there is a dearth of female asian physicists there is a wide variety as to other races globally. The latter is widening as more countries have the resources to invest in technology than ever before and because the UK are more willing (ie its a good revenue earner) to train physicists from other countries.

      Again the assertion as to race bears little weight.

    64. Refresh — on 27th November, 2008 at 2:29 am  

      Billy #52

      That’s him. That’s the guy who called my partner a lesbian when she told him and his boys to get off her high street.

      He was a bit older than in the picture. And out of uniform.

    65. Rand Rustle — on 27th November, 2008 at 6:44 am  

      persephone 62 wrote …Where do I start with an educated layman…excuse me or is it laywoman… How about layprimate?

      persephone 62 wrote …1) environmental differences … make a huge impact. … I agree that this is the case in extremis, as it is with heredity, don’t you agree?

      persephone 62 wrote … 2) You are ignoring how intelligence is affected by the neurones in the brain. … Please state where I assert that on this blog or within any of the links I provided.

      persephone 62 wrote … All humans, regardless of race, are the same in biological terms. … Are you asserting that races exist without a biological difference between them? For example, there are large differences in the rates for prostate cancer and aggressive breast cancer between those of European and Sub-Saharan African descent of a biological origin.

      persephone 62 wrote … races have different neurones … I cannot see such proof in any of the links you have provided. … Via the link provided at post 57/58, if you select “all comments” and search for “Rustle” you will find ten links to other CIF articles in the comment at “Jan 14 08, 6:53pm”, which in turn link to various external sources. I would suggest that you look again, if time permits.

      persephone 62 wrote … Science should never be adjusted to fit propaganda. … I agree.

      persephone 62 wrote … There is lots of information regarding the ‘inequality of success’.. ‘due to the hateful activity of others’. … Which is consistent with my statement “primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others”

      persephone 63 wrote …“Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics and probably mathematics in the UK and the USA.” … Again the assertion as to race bears little weight. … I disagree. Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. In my opinion this is an empirical observation of great weight.

    66. Jai — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:32 am  

      Bert,

      I do not recall research for other academic subjects, which may be what you are referring to.

      That surprises me, considering how much publicity there has been during the past few years regarding the academic performance of Indians and Chinese people compared to other groups in the UK.

      To my knowledge this has not been demonstrated so far.

      See above.

      Reportedly the India contains a great many disparate racial groups, which one(s) do you refer to?

      Those of us currently residing in the UK.

      Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”?

      Depends on your point of view and how far back in history you wish to go.

      Most of the research I have seen predominantly covers the USA, so please excuse my ignorance.

      Given the fact that there have been numerous surveys in recent years confirming that Indians are disproportionately highly represented in the most prestigious areas of academic qualifications and professional success in the United States, I would have expected you to be aware of this.

      There is actually a great deal of academic research, employing the statistical analysis of empirical data, which clearly demonstrates that the inequality of success of various racial groups within society is primarily due to inherent abilities rather than the hateful activities of others

      Given the fact that my father is a doctor and it is not exactly a secret that Indians are disproportionately highly represented both in British medical schools (approx. 1/3) and in the NHS itself — certainly a much, much higher percentage compared to our numbers in the British population as a whole — this certainly undermines any assertions of race-based intellectual inferiority and would, in fact, imply the opposite, if one were so inclined.

      For specific empirical data, as a starting-point, here are the results of an academic study from 2004, via the BMJ:

      http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=516656

      *******************************

      Here’s a question for you: Do you believe that President-elect Barack Obama’s brilliant academic background and subsequent success in American politics are a result of the “inherent abilities” he has inherited from his white maternal family rather than his Kenyan paternal family ?

      If so, what about his wife Michelle, the descendent of slaves (at least w.r.t her family tree in America; her ancestry in Africa before that may well be very different indeed), who has a similarly outstanding academic and professional background ?

      Incidentally, as an aside I should also mention that there is not exactly a shortage of extremely competent and highly-qualified Nigerian doctors currently working here in the UK.

    67. Jai — on 27th November, 2008 at 10:50 am  

      Aryan supremacists with Holocaust revisionist impulses? Please give a jargon free version of this statement.

      Easy: People from a northern/western European ethnic background who have misappropriated the term “Aryan” and have a malicious, self-serving agenda to undermine the current stance on the sheer scale and horror of the numbers murdered by the Nazis in WW2 (despite all the evidence), especially in relation to Jewish people who were on the receiving end of their genocidal agenda.

      As an aside, I’m sure you can appreciate the irony of the word “Aryan” being hijacked and used by such people, considering that some of us from a subcontinental background are actually descended from the genuine article.

    68. persephone — on 27th November, 2008 at 11:25 am  

      Rand Rustle @65

      “How about layprimate?”

      How about not even using the term ‘Lay etc’ - it smacks of intellectual snobbery

      “environmental differences … make a huge impact. … I agree that this is the case in extremis, as it is with heredity, don’t you agree?”

      No I do not agree that such factors only kick in extremity. What does comes across is a one dimensional rationale

      “Please state where I assert that on this blog or within any of the links I provided.”

      I am saying that you have not covered it - again one dimensional

      ” Are you asserting that races exist without a biological difference between them? For example, there are large differences in the rates for prostate cancer and aggressive breast cancer between those of European and Sub-Saharan African descent of a biological origin.”

      Read my comments (and the subject of this post relating to intelligence) they relate to neurones in the brain not other organs. But as you mention it, aggressive breast cancer has been linked to the use of deodorants/under arm shaving and decrease in women breast feeding (more prevalent in Europe) which point to environmental factors not race.

      ” races have different neurones … I cannot see such proof in any of the links you have provided. … Via the link provided at post 57/58, if you select “all comments” and search for “Rustle” you will find ten links to other CIF articles”

      If only all education could be got from web links via CIF. See what I mean by being one dimensional. I must get the Associated Examining Board & various biology tutors to revoke my A level in biology as I have not relied upon the wisdom of such links.

      “Ashkenazi Jews outperform all other racial groups in physics in the UK and the USA. Indeed they are roughly ten times over represented amongst Nobel Laureates. ”

      Read my comment it related 1) to the world outside of the UK & USA and 2) to someone who has over 20 years experience in physics - who from your race (and from what I infer also as to gender) argument should not be in that career. Perhaps she was in extremis…

      “In my opinion this is an empirical observation of great weight”

      And not due to the way some Jewish family bring their children up? It is tantamount to my saying that the 9 uncles (in one generation) on my fathers side go towards the empirical evidence that asians have certain ‘inherent abilities’ due to race when it is really the driver of asian’s family obsession with status, work ethic, high achievement, focus on education and those careers they see as a ‘true profession’. Question: are there similar environmental parallels with Jewish families?

    69. persephone — on 27th November, 2008 at 11:55 am  

      @67 ” .. the irony of the word “Aryan” being hijacked and used by such people, considering that some of us from a subcontinental background are actually descended from the genuine article.”

      Linking this back to the topic of BNP & to immigration:

      I come from ancestors living in a part of India where the current residents have a proven genetic link to the Assyrians/latter day Greeks. So I do not see myself as coming from an immigrant background. I don’t see myself as a Brit Asian (whatever that is) but as a European whose family came back home to Europe after a very long break.

    70. Bert Rustle — on 29th November, 2008 at 10:04 am  

      Jai 66 wrote … Those of us currently residing in the UK. …

      According to Racial Differences in Intelligence Table 6.1 page 81 a dozen different studies gives general IQ in India in the eighties. In Table 6.2 page 83 for Indians in Britain another dozen studies gives general IQ in the eighties and nineties.

      Jai 66 wrote … Is any of the population of India so-called “indigenous”? Depends on your point of view and how far back in history you wish to go. …

      What is your point of view and how far back would you go with it?

      Jai 66 wrote … Indians are disproportionately highly represented both in British medical schools … compared to our numbers in the British population as a whole — this certainly undermines any assertions of race-based intellectual inferiority and would, in fact, imply the opposite, if one were so inclined. … I made no such assertion.

      In my opinion, success in medicine is not a proxy for intellect whereas success in mathematics or physics is.

      There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for racial differences in intelligence. If you follow through the link provide in 56/57 you will find links to much published downloadable academic research on the subject.

      Jai 66 wrote … For specific empirical data … via the BMJ … This document makes no mention of IQ, intelligence or indeed of intellect generally.

      Jai 66 wrote … President-elect Barack Obama … I have not followed the US election or Obama. For those who may be interested, Steve Sailer has actually written a book entitled “The Half-Blood Prince” which can be downloaded for free before publication. As a previous link was deleted I will not repeat it.

      Jai 66 wrote … there is not exactly a shortage of extremely competent and highly-qualified Nigerian doctors currently working here in the UK. …

      There is a shortage of of ethnic minority organ donors and foster parents in the UK.

      Is there a shortage of British ethnic minority medics who do Voluntary Service Overseas, medical or otherwise? Do you have any information on this?

    71. Bert Rustle — on 29th November, 2008 at 10:09 am  

      persephone wrote … If only all education could be got from web links via CIF. …

      There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for racial differences in intelligence. If you follow through the link provide in 56/57 you will find links to much published downloadable academic research on the subject.

    72. FrankJohnson — on 28th March, 2009 at 10:32 pm  

      I don’t know . . . I’d read this site, and I’d take these discussions of Jewish domination more seriously if Jewish contributions to world culture weren’t such cock-ups: communism, Freudian analysis, the bomb, Ayn Rand, and, more recently, the Project for a New American Century and Credit Default Swaps. When will the Jews harness all this intellectual firepower and give us something cool, like Rock and Roll, or gummi bears?

    73. Dalbir — on 28th March, 2009 at 10:45 pm  

      Well, they gave us bagels for which I’m thankful.

    74. chairwoman — on 29th March, 2009 at 9:29 am  

      Dalbir - If you’re in the UK it’s BEIGELS. Now can we call get that right please?

      Thank you :)

    75. chairwoman — on 29th March, 2009 at 9:37 am  

      When will the Jews harness all this intellectual firepower and give us something cool, like Rock and Roll, or gummi bears?

      Leiber & Stoller, Carole King, Carly Simon, Paul Simon, Randy Newman, George & Ira Gershwin, Neil Diamond, Elvis Presley, Amy Winehouse, Billy Joel, Bob Dylan, Mark Knopfler, Warren Zevon, Arlo Guthrie, Neil Sedaka..

      And the whole panoply of modern American music.

    76. Katy Newton — on 29th March, 2009 at 10:59 am  

      .

    77. Ravi Naik — on 29th March, 2009 at 12:22 pm  

      According to Racial Differences in Intelligence Table 6.1 page 81 a dozen different studies gives general IQ in India in the eighties. In Table 6.2 page 83 for Indians in Britain another dozen studies gives general IQ in the eighties and nineties.

      That book is DEEPLY flawed with very dubious methodology, and no one is the scientific community takes it seriously.

    78. Sergeant Twining — on 27th May, 2009 at 12:35 pm  

      Racial difference leads to difference in intelligence? That is the biggest load of B——- I have heard. Intelligence is directly linked to learning. We are what we are because of our environment. If you don’t give Black kids a chance, an education, what hope is there?

    79. Sergeant Twining — on 27th May, 2009 at 12:35 pm  

      Racial difference leads to difference in intelligence? That is the biggest load of B——- I have heard. Intelligence is directly linked to learning. We are what we are because of our environment. If you don’t give Black kids a chance, an education, what hope is there?

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