Asian Identity Guilt Syndrome
Let’s go briefly back to talking about identity. My problem is that I don’t think many people, especially far left writers like John Pilger, really understand the complexities here.
A few years ago I went on a blind-date with a young woman that ended with us never talking again. This is not unusual, I’m sure, except that while we get on great and found each other attractive – I made the grave mistake of ridiculing her over one point she made.
Despite being Indian, she had never dated anyone brown earlier, she told me. Not an issue, I said. She was almost a ‘coconut’, she added, a term usually used for people ‘brown on the outside and white on the inside‘. In other words she hardly knew any Asian languages nor bothered with the culture.
This used to be an issue for me (and my generation) about a decade ago when Asian youth sub-culture was taking off in clubs around the country and we started expressing our multiple identities. Bhangra and Bollywood consumption exploded, people openly organised and celebrated massive Eid, Diwali and Vaisakhi parties, it became socially acceptable to wear Indian clothes etc. You have to remember, when we were young – we ran away from any expression of Asian culture in order to fit in. Well, in London anyway. And yes, I’m generalising here. So sue me.
At the time we made fun of our Asian peers who only listened to indie and rock (Amar, if you’re reading, sorry mate!) and called them coconuts. Now that we’re more comfortable in our own skin, no one bats an eyelid if you tell them you want to go to Glastonbury.
Anyway, I’m veering off point. I told my blind-date it wasn’t an issue that she considered herself a coconut. It was a silly term anyway. But then she said that she wanted to raise her kids as culturally informed Asians who knew the culture, language and all the rest. She would make sure, she added quite firmly, that they knew what she didn’t. At which point my response was – huh??
Now, I don’t have an issue with what culture people choose to follow or how they bring up their kids, but I thought this was a bit hypocritical. I ventured that she was feeling guilty for not being sufficiently Asian herself, and wanted to assauge that guilt by putting her kids through what she wouldn’t be asked to. The discussion rapidly disintegrated as you can probably imagine and we said our goodbyes.
This phenomena seems to be affecting an increasing number of my peers. They feel somewhat guilty for the partying and increasingly liberal lifestyles they lead, and resolve to correct that either by marrying someone more culturally or religiously where they want to be, or plan to raise their kids as such. Obviously, they’ll fail in both because kids and spouses spot hypocrisy quite quickly.
In different ways, British Asians are still trying to get to grips with their identity. A minority make drastic changes by reaching for religion as a strong source of identity or to get away from oppressive cultural (meaning misogynist) practices of their parents, as form of empowerment. Oh, and Asian women are just bloody difficult to figure out.
This Asian Identity Guilt Syndrome is also usually exploited by some nutcases, who try and make them feel guilty for not following their culture or religion more strongly. In many cases, they will go further than using ‘coconut’ and call them Uncle Toms. I now thoroughly hate these terms.
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I ventured that she was feeling guilty for not being sufficiently Asian herself, and wanted to assauge that guilt by putting her kids through what she wouldn’t be asked to.
You were probably right.
Being right doesn’t always help in getting laid
I can totally relate to this article. You dont even have to be culturally less informed to be labelled as a coconut! I guess pigeonholing someone as a coconut is mainly a tactic used to enforce conformism by ethnic cliques. Growing up I was often labelled a bounty bar by the rudeboy crowd in my town for having mainly non-Asian friends. Even here in States i do come across FOBs who presume i’m a coconut and start talking shit about me in Hindi. Its actually funny to like play along for a while before breaking into flawless Hindi!
Yep, I’ve seen/heard similar things over the years, young Asian guys going out partying etc, enjoying life while at Uni then swinging the other way and becoming proper traditional and quite conservative as they get into their late 20s/early 30s…
God I thought this only affected muslim men who conveniently ‘forget’ their religion, and suddenly become born again muslims when it comes to choosing a wife…(usually from ‘back home’)…
“Oh, and Asian women are just bloody difficult to figure out”. Sunny…that’s plain unfair…are you saying this because of the Asian aspect or the gender aspect or both? I reckon Asian women used to be quite two faced..not in a bad way but because we had to in order to get on….at work we are merited on our work and professionalism…at home..well not sure how far this is correct today but there’s still huge pressure to conform to some part of Asian culture…through language, behaviour, dress, morality etc etc…so you can’t always blame the woman…we find it hard enough dealing with duality…and especially when looking for a partner..you marry one thing and then suddenly they all turn in to neanderthals once the marriage ceremony is over…
Leon, thats not a Asian-specific phenomenon.
I’ve seen white friends go from hippy tie-dyed liberals to business suited tory boys. From drunks to teetotalers. From drug fueled to police men.
Its not an Asian thing, growing up and settling down. What is Asian specific is the uniformity of the immigrant – village – Asian – experience.
LOL! Lines like that (about Asian or any women for that matter) always make me laugh. Obviously not all men are as clever as me as I’ve always found women pretty straight forward to figure out.
Asian girls do all that too.
To quote Charlie Sheen’s character from an episode of “Two and a Half Men”, who decides that the appropriate response to anything a woman says is simply “I understand”:
Charlie: Alan, there’s something you should know about me. When I say I understand, it doesn’t mean I agree. It doesn’t mean I understand. It doesn’t even mean I’m listening to you.
Alan: They why do you say it ?
Charlie: It seems to make people happy. *grinning* And that’s what I’m all about.
>>ventured that she was feeling guilty for not being sufficiently Asian herself, and wanted to assauge that guilt by putting her kids through what she wouldn’t be asked to.
Its about perspective..you presumed her reasons were for that Sunny..which i completely completely disagree with. The Brit Azian Identity is so diifficult to sum..and at twenty five plus something, im still discovering and trying to demystify who i am and want to be but its unfair that you put guilt as the primary reason why someone has a preferred way of doing things. There is something wrong with that.
Asian men are so confusing. :S
I understand.
I really don’t understand why people becoming more conservative when they reach their late twenties and early thirties is being held up as some kind of aberrant or significant phenomena of British Asian life. Guess what? That happens to everyone. Of every race and background. It happened to me. It happens to everyone I know of my age. Youth is for recklessness. Then you grow up. And have children.
I think issues of identity might become clearer to you if you didn’t ascribe normal human behaviour to racial identity issues. That might be what is causing you confusion.
As for the phrases ‘coconut’ and ‘uncle tom’, they are harsh terms directed towards black and asian people by other black and asian people. As nasty and unfair as the are though, their continuing presence in the vocabulary of black and asian people suggests to me that they represent in words a real and continuing anxiety over something, a fear of loss of self, that is always going to be present in any society in which minorities of any kind exist. They are expressions of that anxiety.
Billy hit the nail on the head, imho.
‘Oh, and Asian women are just bloody difficult to figure out.’
OI! That’s certainly not applicable to yours truly
.
‘I ventured that she was feeling guilty for not being sufficiently Asian herself, and wanted to assuage that guilt by putting her kids through what she wouldn’t be asked to. The discussion rapidly disintegrated as you can probably imagine and we said our goodbyes.’
I think you were in the right too. I just don’t understand why people have to be so one-sided about it. I think perhaps because, as others have said, so many Asians are forced to lead a double life for so long, that they get fed up and end up choosing ‘one’ identity because it’s easier.
That is, of course, patently ridiculous. I’m going to encourage my children to partake of the aspects of ‘Indian’ culture I enjoyed, but the rest is up to them.
‘But then she said that she wanted to raise her kids as culturally informed Asians who knew the culture, language and all the rest.’
People often forget (or don’t even really comprehend) that there’s a big difference between being ‘culturally informed’ and following traditions. I was more culturally informed than my parents on the lives of the Gurus for a while; it didn’t stop me from questioning my faith, rejecting the identikit conformism where I grew up and being labelled a ‘coconut’ and ‘chickpea’ (half white, half brown apparently) by my siblings!
I’ll take being a chickpea though. Chickpeas go great in dishes from various cultures
.
Not only Asian, but common among the descendants of immigrants, I think. The grandchildren of Poles who came to the U.K. after WWII often seem more imterested in polish culture and language than their parents, ‘though less interested in Poland as a country. Similarly, anglicised Welsh and Irish descended people study the languages out of curiosity without identifying themselves with the countries concerned.
@ 2 “rudeboy crowd”.
Them again. How is it that the rudeboy crowd attempt to dress, speak & listen to music that is generally considered part of black culture (and is there a term for that identity??) but seek to criticise those that THEY think have imbibed too much white culture? I have always found this hyprocisy strange.
@ 11. Agreed. A case of the more you think you are different the more you are really the same. Lets not ‘asian navel gaze’ too much – we are human beings before we are asian.
A few years ago I went on a blind-date with a young woman that ended with us never talking again. This is not unusual
Lol. So tell the truth Sunny were you the guy they based that ‘cheque please’ sketch on in goodness gracious me?
I think that’s one of the major reasons why many (not all) Asian parents can become so overly controlling when it comes to their adult children — frequently much more than their counterparts back in India (I can’t speak for Pakistan etc) — and also why they can become excessively stubborn, entrenched and jingoistic about matters concerning “culture”, identity etc.
Regarding the younger crowd, I think that sudden fears about “loss of identity” etc frequently start kicking in when they see members of the older generation really becoming aged — especially when people start passing away or they’re becoming noticeably “old” — since the latter clearly aren’t going to be around forever to “carry the torch” for desi cultural issues. So members of the 2nd-gen crew sometimes feel a “sudden” responsibility for such things.
Yeah that was what I was driving at…
Off topic, hopefully people won’t mind my question. Can someone point me to any blogs that are similar to PP that are written by Black British bloggers?
Being right doesn’t always help in getting laid
and
Lol. So tell the truth Sunny were you the guy they based that ‘cheque please’ sketch on in goodness gracious me?
Heh. probably, in both cases.
I’d venture to say it’s an age thing as much as an identity thing. I grew up in India, and even there, people would party and date and do what they wanted in college but then sober up and marry a Nice Girl/Boy who would help them Maintain Family Traditions. When it comes to marriage and children, we all turn a bit conservative. I always snickered at earnest US-transplanted desis who insisted on having their kids learn bharatnatyam and take hindi lessons because they seemed to be in denial about the fact that their kids would be American. But now as I consider having children with my (American) husband, I do think I want my kids to have at least a bit of desi culture to relate to.
Also, perhaps for British Asians, the density of family and community available in their context made it unnecessary to have to actively seek out desi culture for oneself, so one could effectively just go out and be just like anyone else while mom kept the home fires/dal/Hindi or Punjabi going. When you have to actively think about being a keeper of tradition yourself, you just get more conservative.
This is happening right now on the continent. I live in Europe, which has a desi population not worthy of writing home about. I was chucked out of my desi group of friends for doing ‘white’ things like speaking the language fluently, not being interested in Bollywood, not knowing how to speak Hindi(it isn’t even my mother tongue), listening to indie rock instead of Indi pop, and so on…and since I’m female and unusually uninhibited for the typical desi female I became an object of gossip as well from my late teens onward…
I agree with your analysis but i think that it applies to all groups.
I think it’s because when we attend traditional weddings where our cousins are dressed up in the traditional attire we feel a bit insecure and therefore decide that we too want to marry someone of our ‘culture’ even though we have never been part of it!
If I get in a car accident, get brain damage and decide to have children, I’ll want to teach them Arabic so they can talk to the grandparents and also teach them a bit about their heritage.
It may be a universal phenomenon to become more conservative when older, but with immigrants it’s a matter of going from more integrated to less integrated. It may be the same phenomenon but it has wider implications.
That’s a matter of degree, Ala. Plus, it’s not so much a matter for immigrants, as it is for British people who are second or third generation born in Britain. Whatever integration means, it does not mean assimilation to the point where any ‘deviance’ from a British ‘norm’ in sensibility or culture is evidence of perfidy. Most people do manage to find the balance that makes sense to them. That’s the way it should be.
Immigrants tend to hold on to culture and religion more and enforce this with their children simply because they are more afraid of losing identities than indeginous counterparts in country of origin. This is true for immigrants regardless of background.
For South Asians particularly marriage is a very important event in their lives when a lot of wishy washy liberal catchphrases and viewpoints are traded in for more conformist and cultural and religion-aligned viewpoints. There is a huuuuge difference for a guy between marrying a culturally compromised woman (and of questionable virtue) who is good for dating and a woman considered a good marriage material and more in touch with their ethnic/religious identity, though not necessary wholly traditional.
Interesting Sunny -thanks for sharing your experience. and well spotted – i think this ‘identity guilt’ syndrome is responsible for a lot of “forced” culture in diasporic life.
^^^ Now I think I understand why you’re so sympathetic to the promise of dictatorship, Ashik
“Oh, and Asian women are just bloody difficult to figure out.”
heh heh. and leon, clever man
“I’ll take being a chickpea though. Chickpeas go great in dishes from various cultures
.”
spot on amrit!
Should men of questionable virtue also be considered not marriage material?
Don, men are not considered the vessels of honour as women are in Asian culture (incl. Chinese and Japanese culture). Many Asian women embrace this role as guardians of virtue, especially as they age and need to find a man. Obviously some don’t. And yes, it is hypocritical and unfair but that’s the way it is.
And Billy an efficient benevolent dictatorship is usually marginally better than an inefficient oligarchic ‘democracy’ windowdressing in the subcontinent. That’s why the military takes over periodically.
Just out of curiousity how many well integrated ‘liberal’ desi bro’s here who are aghast at my comments are willing to marry a gal who has had prior sexual experience with another? Be honest now…..
“Oh, and Asian women are just bloody difficult to figure out.”
Maybe Asian guys just aren’t smart enough to “bloody figure them out.”
Anyway, it is completely useless to try to be “Indian” when in the diaspora. People are under the false illusion that “being Indian” entails certain pre-packaged activities: speaking the mother tongue, dancing to garba, wearing Indian clothes, listening to Bhangra, partaking in religious festivals, getting married, and watching Bollywood movies. The thing is that there are some people born and raised in India who don’t do any of those things, save for speaking the local tongue and being informed of Bollywood movies. I can name about 5 Indians like this just off the top of my head. Short of living and working in South Asia (and NOT simply crashing at your relatives house, which is not the same as living and working there on your own), there’s not much you can do in terms of trying to be Desi. And, I have to add, I’ve met white people living and working in South Asia for at least ten years, and would put any Diasporan to shame due to their knowledge and life experiences in South Asia. In the end, what the hell defines being a certain “ethnicity” and culture? Just our blood?
Seriously, if people have their panties/boxers up in a bunch in the efforts to be Desi, all they need to know is Hindi, keep watching Bollywood films, and live in the Desi country of their choice. I am not being facetious here; you can seriously get on just fine with knowing Hindi and films, and local peeps will consider you one of their own. Although, you can get away with English if you hang out with the Desi elites in India and Pakistan, for example.
Sunny:
“Let’s go briefly back to talking about identity. My problem is that I don’t think many people, especially far left writers like John Pilger, really understand the complexities here.”
Yes, Sunny, we know you hate the far-left. I think you’ve mentioned this in other posts. Don’t worry, you’ve put your creds out. You’re not one of them .
Who else do you have in mind as “far left writers” who steamroll over the complexities of identity other than Pilger (who in your opinion does this?)
I’m not coconut nor chikpea. I’m a grapefruit. (Ruddy-cheeked middle class englishwoman on the inside, yellow central Asian on the outside).
“I’ll want to teach them Arabic so they can talk to the grandparents and also teach them a bit about their heritage.”
If I have kids, I’m going to teach them Spanish and Hindi (English they’ll pick up in school). Two major languages that cover two huge chunks of the world.
I dont get this Asian guilt thing. It’s not as if if the next generation of diasposra kiddies dont grow up culturally asian enough our traditions will begin to die out. There are over a billion people on the subcontinent to ensure their survival.
I think its important to know your roots
Sure learn respect and appreciate new cultures and rituals and styles of the country you live in
But ladies and gentlemen the truth is the truth .,If you are Indian you are Indian no matter how much you try and be someone else . As long as you remember this fact then you can near enough act and be how you want . Proviso you do not condescend insult make fun of someone more “stereotypical”
I know a lot of “desi” find aapne born abroad , different accent to theirs assume us to act in a certain way and I am afraid to say the ycan be bery tunnel visioned. I suspect that has to do with upbringing
As for Asian women difficult to work out…
Its easy mate , most have a preconceived idea of how you feel about them the moment they catch your face , and the ones who have the common sense to judge someone after speaking to them tend to be far and few between
Asian women are beautiful and you know I think the best in the world and they know it , its just a shame that a lot of them think Asian guys are of a certain type. I suspect its their opinions based on narrow minded girl friends , family stories and general media expression of Asians. I am sure the intelligent Asian women are around , just need to wait
Anyhow I agree with desi Italiana Spanish and Hindi , English will be taught at school
Anas:
“There are over a billion people on the subcontinent to ensure their survival.”
Yeah. But I’d venture to say less than a billion, because there are many Desis in the Desh who aren’t really preoccupied with maintaining any ‘rituals.’
That’s all nonsense Ashik, but you missed my point completely. I was saying, half in jest, that your prediliction for dictatorship correlates with your horror for the whole idea of individual liberties. Better a self appointed patriarch who enforces power than the beauty and struggle and continual renewal and questioning of a democracy. A patriarch in the home, a Generalissimo in the State Office.
My aunt just came back from India this week, and she said–like many diasporan desis I know– that in India they have ‘lost their traditions’ while “we” have kept them.
It’s interesting how ‘tradition’ gets defined. Apparently, changes from freaking 30-50 years ago (which is when many of the immigrants I know came from India)and the practices now aren’t “tradition” or even considered “Indian.” Obviously, staticism is keeping with ‘tradition’. Can’t believe that there are so many regressive, atavistic desis who would like India to remain as it were half a century ago.
Whoa. This thread is like group therapy.
I think it’s wrong to expect someone born and raised in, say, the UK to be “Indian.” And the worst violators of this are fellow diasporans, not necessarily folks in India.
An example. A very distant cousin of mine came from Australia last month. She’s married to a white Kiwi. My aunts– all of whom were born and raised in FIJI, not India, for god’s sake– tried to get her to speak in Punjabi. When she said that she’s not all that fluent in Punjabi, they kept accusing her, with mean-spirited jests, that she’s lost her “roots” and she’s not “Indian” anymore.
There’s something wrong with this picture. People who themselves weren’t even born and raised in India consider themselves “Indian” and treat a 40-plus year old woman born and raised in N.Z. and married someone who is not of Indian ancestry as if she were a teenager, and making her feel bad for not being “Indian enough.” THEY are the ones who are making people go through identity conflicts, or make them feel embarrassed, ashamed, or out of touch with their “roots”. Honestly, who do they think they are? Lack of respect, IMO.
“She was almost a ‘coconut’, she added, a term usually used for people ‘brown on the outside and white on the inside‘.”
I was accused by my fellow second generationers for being “coconut” because I wasn’t a part of the Indian club on my college campus, and they’d see me walking around with my black, East Asian, Latino, Arab, and white friends. It takes very little to be considered a coconut for Desis
It takes very little to be considered a coconut for Desis
Exactly! Especially here in the States… If you arent a part of the bloody ISA at your school, you are an outcast.
ha ha ha this is really funny. I can’t get much further in advice than comment number 1 tho.
I remember twenty years ago seeing massive queues around the block for a bahngra event in Birmingham in the afternoon. Great to see so many kids skiving.
What is the opposite of a coconut as in a white person who is black on the inside? Like those Vice Versa sweets?
Am I a Wigger? Fuck knows.
A friend of mine asked me if I understood what the guy was singing about on some dancehall track I was listening to.
I cocked my head having a damn good try for a little while then said
“I don’t know. Something about some girls butt or something about killing the battyman”
It was a fairly safe bet.
People who call other coconuts are just jealous because you got out of the Indian cocoon. The idea that you need to stick with your own, or behave according to your kind (whatever that is), is somewhat aberrant.
Personally, I have no patience with these people, nor with family members who do not respect my privacy, and my choice of life.
Being white it is sad for me to see how many of my brown friends in this country have this identity problem. But I suppose those are the ones I would see because the others are secure in their community lives and mindsets and walk past me on the streets.
Vikrant:
“If you arent a part of the bloody ISA at your school, you are an outcast.”
Still? So sad that times have not changed since 7 years ago, when I was in school. Thought it would be different for you younglings, but I guess not.
Ravi:
“The idea that you need to stick with your own, or behave according to your kind (whatever that is), is somewhat aberrant.”
Exactly, especially in this day and age with accelerated globalization and all of the things it entails.
“Personally, I have no patience with these people, nor with family members who do not respect my privacy, and my choice of life.”
Word.
Dave:
“Being white it is sad for me to see how many of my brown friends in this country have this identity problem.”
Well, here in the US, I distinctly remember my white friends who, when in the minority, had an identity problem of feeling like they had no “culture” as opposed to families like mine, who presumably “have culture”. Never underestimate the power of having exotic wear, food, movies, and music and the belief that this constitute a glue for an imagined community and how people feel when they think they don’t have those supposedly special things.
Also, it may be “sad” to for you to see such identity conflicts, but also remember that combined with family, the larger society also impacts how people feel. Like when white Americans tell non whites that they are not “really American,” constantly ask you where you are from though you were born and raised here, racism rearing its ugly head…things like that. Don’t know if the UK is similar in these aspects.
I have heard from my darker friends who have seen both that it is much better here and I believe them, although London is a bit of a bubble in racial harmony terms compared to say, Bradford.
Especially the native Jamaicans I have spoken to. They all seem to glow about the UK and their status here and they all hate America. The only place they see as worse for them in racial terms is India.
I think virtually every Londoner has an identity problem. It’s not just an Asian thing. It’s not even just a brown/black thing. At the end of the day many of us have rich multilayered heritages. Keeping it real means embracing and developing that synthesis of influences, not pretending you can choose one over the other or celebrating ignorance because society has dealt you a duff hand.
Ashik, I’ve got some breaking news for you. You may want to hold onto something, we don’t want you to fall off your futon or whatnot…..
I can’t speak for “South Asians” in general, but I can speak for the Indian contingent. The vast majority of UK-born Indian women have had prior sexual experience “with another” (or several) before marriage. The vast majority of UK-born Indian men also have had prior sexual experience “with another” (or several) before marriage.
Most guys from the latter group who marry women from the former group are well aware of this.
In many cases, both the man and the woman in the relationship will have had reasonably honest chats about their respective prior relationship histories; even if they don’t necessarily given each other a detailed “blow by blow” (no pun intended) account of events, especially if they just want to focus on the “here and now” and don’t want to know about what went before, there will at least be a mutual understanding that neither party is actually an innocent blushing virgin who is going to be deflowered on their wedding night.
It would be advisable for you not to base your assumptions on your own subjective experiences and community/social circles and not keep extrapolating that to the rest of the British Asian population. “South Asian”, “Indian”, “Pakistani”, “Bangladeshi”, “Sylheti”, “Hindu”, “Sikh” and “Muslim” are not all interchangeable terms or groups.
heh heh Don – 30 quite
Desi – Spot on as usual -can i republish your posts please!!! as you say – what is it we define as culture and tradition? people who actually live in ‘desh’ are in the ‘reality’ so don’t have to keep up some ‘mummified’ exhibitions of ‘desi-ness’ as ‘image’. and as you say, its not ppl back ‘home’ but fellow diasporics who are out to do the /mummification/ people in the indian subcontinent have such a range of /culture/ – its a bit like that documentary where the british pakistani actor goes to karachi and see ‘westernised’appearing glamorous types who are confident of their own identity. i myself know fully well that having grown up in the ‘east’ what is eastern about me – though i may not appear to be to the ‘naked eye’. but its all about the way you think anyway..
53- jai, oh dear you’ve given Ashik some real news there!
how old do you guys think Ashik is? he’s a real innocent isn’t he? if he only knew that appearances are just that -appearances. in the indian subcontinent, women throughout centuries have worked Hard very hard, to keep up appearances. If only these ‘patriarchs’ had any idea…
el cid you’re right – every human will have an ‘identity’ problem in some way i would say.
i guess what a lot of people are getting at here is that if you actually haven’t got that much of an ‘identity problem’ if you are say an indian diasporic of some kind, a good-ish no. of other diasporics will make it their business to ensure you have got an identity crisis!
Ashik is a dear fellow though on consideration, and far be it for us lot to dash his views on the ‘virginity’ of muslim asian girls, especially those who appear demure and devout in appearance. Why should we be the ones highlighting its a smoke and mirrors world? (as i have a feeling he doesn’t care what non-muslim girls are doing)
46. ravi – yep, very well said.
i always think its a fear of “individuality” at the end of the day..which is really i guess tied up with some kind of existential angst. people find comfort in being told how to behave how to think, what to do, the constraint in options open to you, can be a comfort rather than a hindrance.
I have a theory that people like you are just afraid to be compared with previous (and most likely better) sexual experiences.
^ Ravi *applauds* I’m sorry, but that’s devastatingly effective. K.O!
Sunny:
‘Whoa. This thread is like group therapy.’
I knoooow, man – it’s great. This has to be one of the most ‘warm fuzz’-inducing recent threads on PP for me. Desi’s comments were excellent too. What I personally find really odd is when you have people like my mother, who ACKNOWLEDGE that they are holding to traditions that people in India don’t even often follow… but that doesn’t stop them!
I think that perhaps such desis feel cheated, because they think ‘I only left India for the money, not because I wanted to’ and then they find themselves settled and their children adapted to that culture… That could be because so many desis (I’m referring to 1st and some 2nd gens here) have spent so much time working that they haven’t taken stock of the changes in their emotional life. Not meaning to make any excuses for anyone, of course.
‘THEY are the ones who are making people go through identity conflicts, or make them feel embarrassed, ashamed, or out of touch with their “roots”.’
Indeed – because it shores up their OWN sense of identity…
And Anas’ point (#36) was excellent. Exactly, why do individual people who migrate – and their children – suddenly get burdened with the weight of a nation, or of a whole community? It’s just childish. If I refuse to get married, I’ll be accused of betraying my culture and whatever, but why should I have to carry that weight? It’s not fair.
It must be said as well that 1st-gen diasporans only have these issues because they can, I think. So many people in India are more bothered with forging ahead and making a living than criticising others for being not *insert-adjective-here* enough.
Lol @ Ala as well… I sure hope that I turn out grapefruit, because my bf’s a ruddy-cheeked Englishman! Haha
.
58. ouch!
i think you’re right Amrit about what you say about the reasons for hanging on to the traditions, people feel they’ve been missing out! Nostalgia, that powerful very powerful emotion. ‘the good ol’ days’ and all that business.
I recently identified myself as a young(ish), female lawyer not entitled to practice law where I currently live, and a British Asian. I have many identities and I would prefer not to be defined by just one of them, all of my identities make me “me”. If that makes me difficult to work out, all I can say is that I am so worth the challenge, just ask my husband
. As for my children, if and when I have any, I hope they are able to enjoy and grab any and all opportunities which allow them to express themselves in any way they want to.
Sonia:
‘how old do you guys think Ashik is? he’s a real innocent isn’t he? if he only knew that appearances are just that -appearances’.
[Deleted- Rumbold]
Are you a British citizen yet?
Ensure that you attend your naturalisation ceremony and obtain your certificate before you can breathe easy about residing in these Sceptered Isles. The Bengalis on this board know what it cost you to get thus far.
Jai, as others have told you on other threads, in broad strokes South Asians do have similar experiences and outlooks despite differences between various communities. The proof is in dear Rumbold’s obsession with subjects like honour crimes etc on PP which more than amply show that these attitudes persist within the Indian as well as the Bangla and Pak contingents. You and certain others would be well advised to paint a picture on PP more in keeping with reality on the ground. Else this forum is full of a few eccentrics who are exceptions rather than the norm.
ashik
I am sorry to have to be the one to break this to you -but you ought to know that Father Xmas does not exist either
Ravi Naik:
‘I have a theory that people like you are just afraid to be compared with previous (and most likely better) sexual experiences’.
Dude, this is no place to talk about your marital problems.
In Islam there is a passage which states that ‘The fornicator shall marry not but a fornicatress or an idolatress, and the fornicatress; none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolator; that is forbidden to the believers’ (24:3). Fornicators end up with other fornicators. I know types here don’t like religion but there is a certain poetic justice there.
@ 64 but when the ‘non fornicators’ get together do they not also become fornicators ultimately?
Correct. But if non-fornicators become fornicators after fornicating, and they get married right after, are they still fornicators?
I know I am derailing the thread here, but is it really ok to take personal swipes against people based on things written in cyberspace?
Desi italiana @ 68 its not OK. But if you have a mind of your own & take a view that is opposed to ashik’s (methinks especially if you are female) that makes you a fornicator apparently or eccentric.
Ashik, for someone who does not believe in fornication you sure seem to mention/allude to it alot.
@66 “But if non-fornicators become fornicators after fornicating, and they get married right after, are they still fornicators?”
Sounds a bit like a Dr Seuss book here
Anyhow Ashik will have to provide his passage on fornication pre & post maritally. I do know that the Harvard Business Review would term such activity as ‘test marketing’.
Indeed. But there is also the question about what type of fornicatress we talking about. According to Ashik, you have the (1) “culturally compromised woman (and of questionable virtue) who is good for dating” and the (2) “woman who is considered a good marriage material and more in touch with their ethnic/religious identity, though not necessary wholly traditional”
I believe the type of women might affect the dynamics of fornication pre & post maritally. Perhaps Ashik could shed a light on this.
heh heh persephone “Ashik, for someone who does not believe in fornication you sure seem to mention/allude to it alot.”
that is quite funny, but then again, a lot of religious people do seem to be obsessed with all things sexual. i wonder why? do we really think god cares? what a funny anthropocentric view.
“they created a god and worshipped it” …comes to mind.
having ashik around on these threads is brilliant, “the voice”.
(i do like it when you derail threads Desi
)
67. desi, its quite amusing isn’t it, ashik seems to think there might be something to be ashamed of in being ‘experienced’. he also seems to automatically assume that by having a non-asian partner, and talking about that, one must of course be ‘experienced’ and broadcasting the fact needlessly.
which reminds me a bit of the attitude of the ‘chokras’ on the side of the street you know..the guys who go ‘psst!’ when they see you, and if you’re walking past with a guy, they think! aha! she must be game for me! let me have a go! “will you make friendship with me? ” I feel the need to do some research into where this mentality comes from – perhaps Ashik could organise a focus group or something.
(where the “pay” reference comes in, beats me! he surely must be very odd/warped indeed, then again, maybe he’s a 14 year old boy?!)
There are women with no previous sexual experience? As in none at all? They exist? Wow. I’ve learnt something new. I don’t think I have ever met one of them, certainly not a marriagable one. Wouldn’t know what to do with one of them.
@71
Hmmm. So would one be designated as a version 2)woman if one wore a chastity belt under one’s mini skirt? Ashik your help here I am struggling with your designations.
I fear that the type of woman you are designated as comes down to whether you are perceived ‘questionably’ or not as a virgin. If so, a few women have hit upon a solution and can have their cake & eat it by being both 1) & 2) women. How? It involves having a little op. (but don’t tell Ashik)
good one persephone. and we all know appearances can be deceptive.
but no don’t tell ashik indeed – why burst his self-imposed bubble? and we wouldn’t want to cause any female in his immediate or not so immediate circle any hassle now would we? if they’re suitably disguised i’m sure they’d rather stay that way!
Sonia #73:
The only thing the inexperienced have experience in is enviously denigrating the experienced.
The only ones who chide others for being “coconuts” are those who are all coco with no nuts.
““will you make friendship with me?”
Only if they make funny with me.
Perse:
“If so, a few women have hit upon a solution and can have their cake & eat it”
Wear a modest, cotton, salwaar kameez; dutifully feed your parents and the rest of the family; obediently do your puja, prayers, whatever; gracefully “Sat Sri Akaal/Namaste/Saalam” everyone like a good “Indian girl” that you are supposed to be; never voice your opinions/objections to your elders; do not get upset if your elders treat to you like you are a little girl even though you might be in your mid 30’s because this comes off as disrespectful; when your elders talk about “getting you settled down,” just smile while making mental preparations to hit the road when the time comes…
and all the while, when no one is looking, get yours with the person of your choice. Bounce like a mo’ fo’ when your liberty is in true danger. And never settle for someone who looks for a virginal domestic servant in you. Whether they are of Indian origin or not.
You should get an award for this one.
Ashik,
Nobody has told me anything of the sort. You appear to be mistaking me for someone else or your memory is playing tricks on you.
Depends on the specific situation. Also, due to some cultural and religious differences between the communities, in recent years there has been a marked divergence in some matters when it comes to members of the UK-born younger generation from these respective populations.
Perhaps it is the prevalence and frequency of “these attitudes” which you should consider. Again, there are considerable differences in these matters depending on whether one is referring to the Indian population or the other groups you have mentioned.
It is also noticeable that you are assuming that members of the younger Indian generation (numerically now the majority) widely share some of the more conservative ideas that may be more prevalent amongst their parents’ and grandparents’ generations. I am afraid this assumption is incorrect.
This picture is very much in keeping with the reality on the ground where the UK-born Indian population is concerned (especially amongst educated professionals), particularly for the majority who are of Hindu or Sikh background and for whom the teachings of Islam (re: “fornicators” etc) are completely irrelevant.
I think you’ll find that your assumptions are approximately 15-20 years out of date.
I’m sorry, but the use of ‘fornicators’ is hilarious. Tear inducing comedy.
So a family friend’s 23 year old daughter– let’s call her Amrita– who runs in Indian American pageants (she doesn’t do much else) came over with her mother to see my aunt go off to India, and they had pictures of Amrita at this IA pageant. She then asked my aunt if there were any “available guys” in India that my aunt could scope out, because, she sing-songed, “It IS that time [to 'settle down.']
Last night, I was reading a book that my aunt brought back from India, and there were photos stuck between the pages. They were of Amrita, in ridiculous Bollywood-type poses at the pageant. On the back of her photos was her e-mail address.
Isn’t she fucking fruity? Who does that– gives pics of themselves posing at Indian American pageants with their e-mails printed on the back in hopes to snag a husband from India?!
All very Victorian, isn’t it.
Or some ranting Bible-thumping preacher in America’s Deep South:
“Aaaand it was foreseen that there would be fornication everywhere-ah, with the Jezebels and harlots in clear plastic high heels-ah, a sweating orgy of temptation-ah, and all the virtuous men would be defiled and drawn into the molten hellfire of damnation-ah, for all eternity-ah, just for violating the no-touching rule-ah.”
And so on and so forth. Amen.
oo look. a prog-off.
Wow, Ashik are you for real? I dont know which UK you live in… not the one i grew up in for sure!
that is quite funny, but then again, a lot of religious people do seem to be obsessed with all things sexual.
Religious fanaticism you see, isnt a really effective offset for sexual frustration.
Sexual moralists usually end up becoming sexual perverts in their 50’s to make up for the time they wasted when they were young.
All very Victorian, isn’t it.
Totally! Does anyone even use the word “fornication” anymore? Needless to say in my frat house in this college town full of fornicators, the word loses its meaning completely!
@78 & 79 Hilarious
” I think you’ll find that your assumptions are approximately 15-20 years out of date”
Perhaps even longer. When did we asians first publish the Kama Sutra? When one considers this book it does not make us look too emancipated
Sonia
I think you have handled the very personal nature of the comments very well. In victorianspeak, in fact, like a lady – perhaps the type that is the version 2) woman as classified by Ashik
When did we asians first publish the Kama Sutra?
psst… but that was written by those bleedin’ idolators who are haram for our buddy as well!
why thank you persephone!
jai,yes i wasn’t sure either what ashik was trying to say, as desi points out, ashik’s comments are a bit mystifying sometimes. but if ashik is trying to call me a prostitute, that only makes me laugh. what an odd thing to do, revealing of his mindset more than anything else. after all he has the right to be pious in his own fashion and abstaining from whatever he wants to, but it is interesting to see the way his mind works. perhaps when sex comes to mind, he associates it with prostitutes? that would be revealing indeed. and very victorian.
no.87 – very funny
Desi, you are hilarious indeed. and 80 is spot spot on.
89 vikrant, you speaketh much sense there!
heh some of the comments on this thread are really worth a ‘goodness gracious me’ type of comedy.
I think that Ashik should have his own reality TV show, in the style of ‘world’s toughest cops’ (with Jim Davidson providing the voiceover). The camera would follow Ashik on his moped, flashing siren on top of his head, handing out coats and shawls to any woman he considers immodestly dressed, while keeping a beady eye out for Asian women being led astray by ‘ruddy-cheeked Englishmen’ (to quote Amrit #59).
His catchphrase will be widely heard in the playground: “curse those damn Dhakaris!”
@92 and the show could be called Californication
or is that californication syndrome at thread no. 83
AIGS sounds very catholic.
Sonia, want to start up a joint blog for Brown experienced women? We can call it “Brown Ho’s in the ‘Hood” and take swipes at religion, sexism, etc. Since you’re based in Britain, your beat will be to cover Britain. I’ll take over the U.S.
Your handle can be “On Big Ben” and mine can be “Statue of Sexual Liberty.”
What say? You like?
Ashik, want me to hook you up with our family friend’s daughter? You might like her– she’s got no “experience” whatsoever, spends her whole day preparing for an “outing,”, goes to IA pageants in hopes that some Hrithik Roshan type will discover her beauty, fall madly in love with her, and whisk her away to star in Bollywood films opposite him. She’s also a dingbat, with no opinions of her own, which makes her prime for molding her any way you like.
Although, she’s looking for a Punjabi Sikh doctor with blue eyes from a well-to-do family. Don’t know if you fit the bill.
“When did we asians first publish the Kama Sutra?”
Freaking fornicators. What shame and filth they have left us in our collective ancient history. If those Kama Sutra-wallas were still alive today, I’d have flogged them.
I’m still wading through the earlier identity classifications for women. The woman in the white top in the ad on the top right – which do you think she is:
1) a culturally compromised woman (and of questionable virtue) who is good for dating – aka fornicator
2) a woman considered good marriage material and more in touch with her ethnic/religious identity, though not necessary wholly traditional.
3) eccentric
Sonia,
Agreed, but it makes you think, though. What kind of sick twisted guy goes around making those type of remarks across the internet to complete strangers (never mind women in general) ?
You seem to made of stern stuff, based on your cool-headed response to it. Good for you.
Maybe you should get your husband to come on here and give Ashik a piece of his mind too, man-to-man. Just to make things interesting. We’ll see how cocky Ashik is then.
Maybe you should get your husband to come on here…
That was irony, right?
Desi – 95. what a brilliant idea! i like. let’s do it..and we can invite other gals in as well to provide contributing swipes
persephone and amrit – we’ll need some of your extracts too!!
Er…..yeah…..irony…..okay, that’s what we’ll call it…..I was just trying to — hey look, a hot blonde girl in a white tank-top !
In defense of Ashik, he writes in good faith. And unlike other misogynists and backward people trapped in feudal times, he rationalises his bigotry and tries to engage in a debate – and that I can appreciate. I mean, I never heard any other person using terms like “fornicators” or “culturally compromised woman (and of questionable virtue)”. He makes me smile every time time I read his comments.
Ashik’s problem is that he is a weak man. Weak men want control because they are frustrated they have none. For instance, he is pissed that women of his community actually have the gull to criticise their community and stand up for their liberties, and walking out if they are not happy. This is wrong, he rationalises, it goes against religion, family, community. That is why he abuses Sonia so much. But what can he do? He is weak.
And then there is sex. Ashik is both aroused and disgusted with this concept of female sexual freedoms. Aroused because he confuses sexual freedom with “being easy” (prostitutes, pay’n'all). He must think to himself that if he wasn’t such a devout muslim, he would be having sex whenever he wanted. And disgusted, because it means losing “control” over women. But what can he do? He is weak.
Sonia – no problem.
I have no idea why I wandered onto this thread after so long, but it was a right laugh (much needed too!). Jai, as usual *applauds* and I only just spotted Rumbold’s comment at #92… oh my God. It must be done. CALL SKY ONE NOW!