David T on Anti-Muslim Bigotry
David T who writes at Harry’s Place is one of the few bloggers who I find myself in complete, unqualified agreement with almost all the time. When I first started reading his posts some years ago, I was surprised that material of such well argued common sense, not to mention humanity and, yes, decency, should be followed by reams of ugly and vituperative comments aimed at Muslims in invariably long and rowdy comments threads. Initially it was difficult to take all that unhinged bile. I wondered about this dichotomy: why did his posts, which tend to be sharply polemical, provoke such sustained, pathological hatred?
It took me some time to understand that a contingent of commenters post on HP not because of David T, but because they choose to wilfully misinterpreted his language, which he takes some care with. These people tend to conjoin terms such as “Muslim” and “bloc” and “Islamist”. Martin Amis is the ultimate personification of this type: For them Muslims are all Muhammaed Attas; they have radical tendencies hard-coded into them through the religion whether they practice their religion or not.
Of course, it isn’t only bigots and paranoiacs who have difficulty with this distinction. I come across Muslims who, for altogether different reasons, have not been able to make this intellectual leap either. Many Muslims who are automatically repelled by Islamist politics and all it stands for, find themselves identitfying with Islamists when criticism against Islam and Muslims are thrown into heated exchanges. I think that’s normal, but I also think its a reaction to what David T calls an “internalisation”. I really hope younger Muslims will reach the point of clarity when they will confidently make the identity choice between normative/cultural religion on one side and religious supremacy and the politics of mass-victimhood on the other.
Anyway, here’s David T, in an absolutely superb landmark post on Anti-Muslim bigotry which I really recommend you read in full.
Can you imagine - have you even tried to imagine - what it must feel like to be a Muslim in this country, and to come across this sort of indiscriminate bile. I can. If you read a lot of hate speech, directed at your cultural group, you begin to internalise it. It does very strange things to you. If you’re Jewish, and you read article after article which tells you that you are part of a plot to trick the USA into war, to murder children, to control the banking industry and the media: that exposure begins to change the way you think of yourself. Are you really that bad? Do your friends think of you like that? You might find yourself worrying about whether a politician, journalist, or public figure is Jewish - might he be part of the conspiracy? Of course, there’s no conspiracy, but then is the Mearsheimer and Walt theory really so far fetched? What about Atzmon’s “Jewish Power” theories? What about Kevin MacDonald - David Irving’s expert witness - who believes that Jewish genes make Jews need to trick non-Jews in order to survive? Which of these criticisms are ‘beyond the pale’, and which are valid? Is there a germ of truth in even the worst of all this?
Anybody who is a member of any cultural minority group that has been at the sharp end of a campaign of vilification, will be familiar with what this feels like. It is hugely damaging. You might have thought that you were a complicated person, with a beautiful kaleidoscopic identity, negotiating the many joys and hazards of cosmopolitan life. But no. You’re one of “the Muslims”. Or “a Jew”. Or “a Gay”. You find yourself becoming a caricature of yourself, of the thing that others hate.
When I write articles about Islamist politics, I name the specific groups that I am talking about: Al Muhajiroun, Hizb ut Tahrir, Jamaat e Islami, Hezbollah or Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood, and their various front organisations. There are a limited number of people in this country who are involved in this politics. We know who they are. We can and do identify them, and chronicle their activities. That is the way to defeat Islamism.
Alternatively, if you’d prefer, ramble on in a vague way about the misdeeds of “the Muslims”, while throwing out the odd quip about paedophilia every now and then. That is the way to make Muslims in this country feel extremely exposed, and make you look like a complete wanker.
Amen.
One post out of nearly 5 years of building up a bigotted following doesn’t cut it.
David T who writes at Harry’s Place is one of the few bloggers who I find myself in complete, unqualified agreement with almost all the time. When I first started reading his posts some years ago, I was surprised that material of such well argued common sense, not to mention humanity and, yes, decency, should be followed by reams of ugly and vituperative comments aimed at Muslims in invariably long and rowdy comments threads.
Wow I didnt realise that there were two David T’s writing for Harry’s Place. I only knew about that spiteful lying racist whose real name was David Toube.
I must say I don’t go to HP but I do have a lot of Muslim friends and a couple of business partners and have lived in Bangladesh, almost all of these people are from that country by the way.
Over thirty years involvement with the Bangladeshi community have given me an insight into Islamic life which other close white friends do not have. The first thing to do is to distinguish between Islam itself and the way that it has developed culturally in different countries and parts of the world.
The Islam as practised in Bangladesh and in Tower Hamlets is different to that of Afganistan under the Taliban. One of the things that people like Amis do is lump all Muslims together but at the same time there are developments both abroad and here that give Amis and his like plenty of ammunition.
In Tower Hamlets the council is now effectively under the control of Islamic Forum Europe, a tidied up version of Al Muhajirun. Imagine the BNP before the suites in their Doc Martins and bomber jackets.
It is possible that David T thoroughly understands the differences in all of the strands of Islam as am sure that most of those posting here do but David T doesn’t write for the Observer or the Mirror and the likes of Amis do.
I also think that David T does himself no favours when he uses the standard far left line of putting contemporary Muslims in the position of Jews. Conspiracy theories about Jewsih power are limited to the far right and totally discredited as he should know. The only area they still have any credence is in a part of the Islamic world where the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other anti semitic forgeries are still reprintedby so called Western leaning governments.
The Elders was recently made into one of the most popular television series ever shown on Arab television, millions watched it across the Arab speaking world and it is here that Jewish conspiracy theories still flourish.
I totally agree that anti Islamic feelings are alive and well but, as with the Palestinian cause, whilst Muslims are generally unfairly depicted in the media everywhere their leadership has been a disaster.
Yeah his views on invading Iraq have been just great…
Mmm …
Interesting post. Im not 100% with you Im afraid. But, some points are valid.
Billy:
‘In Tower Hamlets the council is now effectively under the control of Islamic Forum Europe, a tidied up version of Al Muhajirun’.
Since when did the controlling Labour Party Councillors in Tower Hamlets become followers of the Jamaat I Islami influenced Islamic Forum Europe? Some RESPECT Councillors are likely to have Jammati mentality though. If you know Bengalis generally then you know ideology is secondary to political power. Hence all the changes in allegiances from Lab to REESPECT and now back to Lab of TH Councillors as the wind has changed post Iraq and Tony Blair.
Many of the Councillors in TH are Sylheti Bengali. The Islam we follow is a hybrid of Sylheti, Assamese, Bengali and now British culture fused with Islam. It is inherently traditional and moderate, focused on family and wary of radical changes generally. The family and not grand transnational political ideology like Islamism is the key building block of our communities. Even Sylheti Islamists don’t really believe in the ideology and apply it in their daily lives. Their Sylheti and Bangladeshi values predominate. For example, even the most fanatic Sylheti Islamist chatting about the Muslim Ummah brotherhood is unlikely to accept that his sister should marry a Muslim Somali black man.
Leon, yeah I said “I find myself in complete, unqualified agreement with almost all the time” -post Euston Manifesto,
Anas, “spiteful lying racist” is not the David T I recognise.
So is this new post his attempt to ‘heal the divisions of the past’, to ingratiate himself again with the anti-war left?
No I think this is his way of clearing the air at HP, stating clearly his position on Islamists vs anti-Muslim bigotry and telling the HP trolls to fuck off. The anti-war left is, as we both know, largely peopled with unprincipled tossers.
Sorry, am I meant to be applauding David T for stating the obvious?
EDIT: On second thought, maybe as a diametric opposite to the perspective of your average ‘non-muslim’, biased typical point of view, his comments have some merit. But the talkback to his post puts that notion soundly to rest.
Sid,
Did you really mean this?
for it would seem to me that the same could be said without equivocation about the pro-war left too.
i think it’s a great post by david t and somewhat overdue. i’d like to think the discussions here have contributed to it. unfortunately, the below-the-line commentary just shows how important it was for him to make this point.
refresh and anas, you’re kind of making his point for him with regard to left-wing flank-watchers….
b’shalom
bananabrain
“I’ll see your Galloway and raise you a Cohen.”
douglas, yes they have Paul Wolfowitz and the Evening Standard. We have George Galloway.
Sid, I think the evidence for the accuracy of that description is laid out pretty convincingly here:
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/10/david-toube-of-harrys-place-liar-racist.html
(I know I’ve posted the link before, but it’s worth reposting)
The statement ‘NOT ALL Muslims are Islamists’ is obviously true. However, one gets confused if the words ‘Muslims’ and ‘Islamists’ are respectively replaced with the hyper-evocative words ‘Fascists’ and ‘Nazis’.
Both ‘Muslims’ and ‘Islamists’ follow a belief that has supported [via the Koran and the Ahadith] barbaric punishments, slavery, mysogyny, racism and homophobia.
Similarly,’Fascists’ and ‘Nazis’ follow a not too-disimilar doctrine.
I AM CONFUSED???
That doesn’t make sense given he’s already said he doesn’t judge a site by what’s written ‘below the line’.
Why would he need to do that at HP if commenters have little or no meaning for him or how HP should be judged in his opinion?
‘i think it’s a great post by david t and somewhat overdue’
Five years overdue. Will he spend the next 5 years undoing his own work? No, he can’t unless he is being reprogrammed.
oh, refresh, lighten up. surely if it is as bad as you say better late than never.
b’shalom
bananabrain
HP does have some very good points to make about the dangers of Islamist identity politics in the UK but falls flat on it’s face by supporting excesses of the Zionist/Pro-Israel Brigade and their brand of identity politics. Hence I no longer visit that site.
‘better late than never.’
Never would be better, it wouldn’t be so hypocritical.
Except for the fact that he was on completely the wrong side on the Iraq conflict, which was weird; and that he - along with a lot of others - seems to think that groupiscules of leftists and rightists actually matter, (to the somewhat sad extent that he actually knows what he is talking about), and that the Euston Manifesto was a bit hard to swallow, somewhat like this sentence, I quite like David T.
So there!
As the lapdancer said to the bishop.
I’m very glad David put up that marker post. I hope anyone who disagrees with it, such as the adolescent Morgoth and the pepperpot Sue R, sincerely fucks off and finds a blog more suited to their needs, such as Little Green Footballs. There is a vast different between criticising fundamentalist Islam/Islamism, and having a kneejerk reaction to all Muslims, assuming they all think alike and slavishly follow every single word of the Koran. Noone would use the Bible to prove that all Christians wear clothes made of only one fiber, yet some of these idiots use analogous references to the Koran.
P.
bananabrain,
I scurried over to HP expecting a riot. T’wasn’t to be found. Apart from our old pal Morgoth in a bull in a china shop, Richard Dawkins, sort of a way, and a few other negative comments, I thought it was, on balance, positive. BTW, I don’t disagree with Morgoths’ ideas, but he always comes across as an atheist fundamentalist. It is OK to be a Christian, I think, though it is best not to be the Reverend Iain Paisley.
Sure, there are still idiots there, but the balance of the arguement - in the comments - seemed to agree with David T. Least, that’s what I thought. To my surprise.
“I scurried over to HP expecting a riot. T’wasn’t to be found. Apart from our old pal Morgoth in a bull in a china shop, Richard Dawkins, sort of a way, and a few other negative comments, I thought it was, on balance, positive.”
That is because the vast majority of HP commenters, like myself, do not respond to every single instance of abuse from the anti-Muslim regulars, simply because there are not enough hours in the day and its a futile effort. I imagine that people like me simply mentally blank out the John Ps, Sue Rs, and others of their ilk.
P.
I suspect the others have worn themselves out over the years, not finding any particular resistance may have been a part of it. The other of course is that there is change coming with US neo-cons shunted to one side. And it may also be good timing to at least look as if HP is unhitching from the Bush/Cheney crew.
Maybe its not ‘better late than never’ but a bit of shape-shifting.
Paul,
Just for you:
http://kotaku.com/358523/someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet
Douglas, I think I actually sent that cartoon to my wife when I was responding to Morgoth one night! Either that cartoon or this one:
http://i21.tinypic.com/2mza8b8.gif
P.
PS: To give some Morgoth small credit, at least he’s pathologically against _all_ religions - though the quote about Powell suits him - he’s been driven mad by the remorselessness of his own logic. John P is worse; he comes out with anti-Muslim hysteria while defending every excess of his Catholic religion.
Ha ha ha!
I like that one.
ha ha, John Palubiski is my personal favourite HP freak.
i’m glad you think so…
he comes across to me as gratuitously rude, which makes me far less likely to take his arguments seriously. as y’all know, i prize civility.
ANLESS YAY PRAYCH OATSOYDE OF CARSE, IN WHACH CASE YAY CON BE HARD FAR MORE AYSILY WHAN YAY ORR EXPAYSING THE INEQUITAYS OF SINN-FEIN AYE ARR EY.
@paul moloney:
i hear ya. i feel very much the same way about many discussions on the middle east.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Paul and Sid,
Frankly, I agree with Morgoth on religion. And Gamma Ray Bursts. But ’tis a shame that he can’t communicate without being so bloody vituperative.
The position all atheists ought to take is that we have toppled Mount Olympus, we sit on it’s summit, the Gods are dead around us. Now what?
It is ridiculously easy for militant atheists to play their own version of G!d.
I am an atheist, but I am not militant about it. I actually detest militant atheists. There are many that write here, either above or below the line, that are informed by their religion. In fact, I have learnt from them. It don’t make them better, or worse, than me. Of course if they come looking for an arguement….
Richard Dawkins probably has an imagination? You’d agree? What is the difference between his imagination and religion? Religion, it seems to me, is in the imaginary realm.
Why does Morgoth not darken our door anymore? I forget.
David T is not racist.
As I understand from reading Harry’s Place over the last few years, he became interested in Islamist politics in Britain for two main reasons; one being that close personal friends died in the twin towers, the other that he was a good friend of Anjum Chaudhry at university. Also, being the son of an immigrant, he tends to take an interest in second generation issues.
His posts make a very valuable contribution to our understanding of the way that certain Islamic groups have sought to leverage notions and rhetorics of multiculturalism to advance reactionary and sectarian politics in the UK. Long may his postings on this subject continue.
I have a feeling that some people are just sullen and sickened because he has been at the forefront of exposing their hypocrisies and double speak.
However, I like to think that maybe this post of his was prompted by questions he was asked here at PP a couple of weeks ago. In particular we asked him if he was embarassed by some of the comments in his threads.
There are two things to point out here. One is that when the comments of Harry’s Place become colonised by particulary vicious trolls who are little more than hate speaking egotists, it inhibits precisely the kind of discussion David T claims to want to encourage. The other thing is that Harry’s Place has long complained about the anti-semitic nature of some of the comments at CiF, and how they drag down the name of the Guardian when they (along with more general racist and muslim hating comments) are allowed to flourish. So they ouught to understand what the more extreme commenters on their patch do to their own good name.
Long Live Harry’s Place. Down with some aspects of their comments policy.
Douglas:
“Frankly, I agree with Morgoth on religion”
Including the forcible demolition of places of worship?
P.
bananabrain,
Wow!
I don’t usually get that sort of reaction. Fact is, I don’t usually get any sort of reaction at all. [Off topic: 'cause I've tried and I've tried, I can't get no, no! no!; no! satisfaction']
Could I suggest a touch of editing?
Lower case:
Anless, pronounced as a pre human sound, usually pronounced with at least three extra s’s.
Case is pronounced Kase.
PRAYTCH: is in fact Preeeeeeeeeech. As in screeeeeeetch.
OATSOYDE: Nearly, but not a prize. Ootside, with the oo as a sort of sotto vocé cow.
Skipping on:
I haven’t a clue what this is about. Oh! Gotit now. It is the word ‘can’.
They pronounce it kawn, not con.
“EXPAYSING” presumeably “exposing”. Presumeably, expoosing, with the double ‘o’ again being a cow like noise.
“AYE ARR EY” This is correct.
you’re right of course, douglas. it’s been some time since i TALKED LAKE THAS. back when i ran the bananic yeshiva academy, many years ago in geocities i was always drafting rev paisley as a good celebrity commentator on the weekly Torah portion.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Paul @ 36,
Well, on balance, no.
I hate doing this, but I did say this:
So, of course I don’t agree with Morgoths’ views. Morgoth has taken it upon himself to polarise discussion. I, for what it is worth, don’t agree with that at all.
To repeat. If someone challenges me directly on my position, I will defend myself. But I won’t go looking for it. Which is, I’d submit, the difference between Morgoths’ position and my own.
Billy, the problem is that HP have had them for years. And for years they’ve been nurtured by the acquiesence of the blogholder.
Worse is how everything ends up being connected using 6-degrees of separation, leaving no room for debate.
There are some things I want to understand - what lengths does DavidT go beyond his writings? He is gleeful that he is responsible for smiting others down because he doesn’t agree with them. In the link Anas provided upthread, he is gleeful about Faisal Bodi getting the sack because he called Sunny a coconut. Was DavidT involved, and was Sunny aware?
There is a lot I don’t know about what goes on above the line, below the line and offline.
bananabrain,
All hail to the “the bananic yeshiva academy”. The Rev Iain Paisley is a figure of fun where I come from.
Billy Connelly had, perhaps, the greatest ever comment about folk like that. In relation to a certain Pastor Jack Glass, he said “Jack Glass is a Pastor”, which will always be a wee sweary word amongst those of us that know.
Morgoth,
I thought you were banned, or something. If you’re not, welcome back.
Morgoth:
You have got us bang to rights there.
Wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments expressed but they are hardly enlightening, sorry. And I’m not saying that because I have beef.
It’s an argument for racial empathy. But DT is preaching to the converted. Some of us have empathy hard coded into our systems already and do not need to intellectualise it. The challenge for some of you Picklers is can you extend your empathy universally or are you just tribal warriors after a bigger piece of the pie for you and your children?
Morgoth is banned too.
Not sure how David T knew about what happened between Faisal Bodi and I - but the situation was worse than that. I’m not going to say more on it.
Refresh, why do you care so much about Faisal Bodi?
If he was sacked from CiF for using a racial slander, then I say good. If someone is gleeful about it that is their business.
deleted — dealt with above.
Name names, El Cid. It seems very presumptuous to claim hardwired universal empathy for yourself and then throw accusations of tribal warriorship around here.
Discussing issues pertaining to the different perspectives people have due to particular experiences formed by their ethnicity is not tribal warriorship.
That might be on display to large degrees on any number of other websites, but on the whole here people are quite universal and fair minded I find.
El Cid,
I’d have thought that that was obvious.
Billy
‘Refresh, why do you care so much about Faisal Bodi?
If he was sacked from CiF for using a racial slander, then I say good. If someone is gleeful about it that is their business.’
Its not about caring about one individual, its whether someone is driven out by DavidT’s antics. If you believe coconut is a sackable offence then it would seem 90% of the commenters on HP should be sacked. The other question might well be can an asian be racist to another asian - culturist perhaps but not racist.
No, I was questioning his glee in that it suggests a Mcarthyite tendancy. Which appears to be reinforced by his harrying of Jenna Delich, who he seems to want driven out of academia.
Sunny,
Thanks for that. It would be interesting to know more but that is up to you.
How does DavidT get to know everything?
El Cid
‘Some of us have empathy hard coded into our systems already and do not need to intellectualise it.’
Totally agree. It is what keeps the world turning. The rest make up the enemy.
Refresh, if an Indian Hindu Asian, for example, can be racist to a Muslim Pakistani Asian, then we know it’s possible for bigoted expressions to be made between people who are Asians. And ‘coconut’ is as much a racial slur in a certain context as calling somebody an ‘Uncle Tom’. That was an issue for the Guardian to decide on and what their regulations are for their writers and who they decide to employ. It’s their decision. And as Sunny explained above there were other factors as well. I think we should consider the issue closed because of that, as obviously we don’t know all the facts.
Having read David T’s piece through several times, and having sat on my hands for most of the day, I have arrived at this place.
David T is setting out his stall, he is drawing a line between himself and his commenters.
Refresh, you are a man of integrity and should recognise this and I hope will take it at face value.
Anas, I am astonished that you, of all people, would resort to Daily Mail tactics by mentioning his very Jewish surname in case anybody had any doubt about his ethnicity.
And if you weren’t both people I like and respect, I wouldn’t give a damn.
You would sack someone for Uncle Tom? As you would coconut?
I am not convinced.
As for Sunny telling us that there was more to it is a different matter entirely.
How do you feel about the way he’s gone after Jenna Dulich? McCarthyite perhaps? Just a little bit maybe?
Chairwoman,
Thanks. Glad to see you here.
I have been for some time wary of where DavidT was heading, more so after he ran that campaign against his local swimming pool.
I like what he has said in that one post, and as El Cid has said for most of us it goes without saying.
I have read some of the comments to his post on HP (some of which I was pleased to see), but its very hard for me to have seen the vile filth that has been the HP commentariat over the years to overnight give DavidT the benefit of the doubt especially when he has given none to the likes of Jenna Dulich (and many many before her). I suppose the gloating tone doesn’t help either.
Lets see how it goes.
Refresh, the Guardian are perfectly within their rights to sack someone if he contravenes their guidelines of not making personal, racially tinted attacks on other writers of theirs. There’s no point going over this time and time again.
You think that David T is a McCarthyite racist. I don’t think he is what you deem him to be, although I wish he would operate some standards in his comments threads, but that is his prerogative. I’ll still read his posts and either inform myself by them, or disagree with them, and just venture into the comments only rarely. I think his articles are worthwhile and some of them are very good.
Billy,
I don’t think he is racist. McCarthyite is bad enough.
It is his prerogative, and we can equally judge him by his articles and the exercising of prerogative.
At least we are in agreement about his commenters.
At least we are in agreement about his commenters.
heh, even his commenters are in agreement about his commenters.
Anas, I am astonished that you, of all people, would resort to Daily Mail tactics by mentioning his very Jewish surname in case anybody had any doubt about his ethnicity.
Dear Chairwoman, great to see u back on PP. Honestly, I didn’t know Toube was a Jewish sounding surname. I mentioned it in full because as Mark Elf of JSF points out in the link I posted, Toube was apparently asking for his anonymity to be preserved at one point out of fear that were his name revealed it would potentially cause him trouble at work — while at the same time rather despicably trying to apparently damage and ruin the careers of ideological enemies. A coward and a hypocrite, geniunely worthy of the McCarthyite epithet (spot on Refresh).
And yes in addition, he is also a racist: As Ashik points out above, Toube is devoted to his own brand of racial identity politics, in this case his ceaseless defence of Israel against criticism of its racist aparthied actions. I can’t see his singling out of Hezbollah in Sid’s quote above and his own defence of terrorism and aparthied as anything but hypocrisy.
I mean, the man is so untrustworthy that I’m not surprised he would throw in one or two lines in an attempt to appear more sympathetic if it was in the service of the cause — although it seems to have fooled Sid at least.
I think there is a general issue with obsessive anti-Muslim bigots on a lot of blogs (see Cif eg). To some extent they’re like “9/11 Troofers”, they congregate en mass on some posts like locusts.
In terms of arguing with them its like constantly taking on troofers - what’s the point, they won’t take any notice and its just the same thing over and over again.
Basically some people think all Muslims must be bad because the Koran is bad and to be a Muslim you must accept all of the Koran.
If you’ve got a simple answer to that that will convince all these guys, I’d love to hear it.
‘If you’ve got a simple answer to that that will convince all these guys, I’d love to hear it.’
Sunny, take a bow. You flushed them out without a great deal of effort. The rest, we the commenters took out with effective and relentless tearing down of their bigotry and worldview.
I have mentioned before about the occasion DavidT sent his commenters to a thread on here; and we took the fascist hordes out. One by one*.
The problem HP (if it does see it as a problem) has is that it lacks the will.
* Made for great entertainment!
Sunny, take a bow. You flushed them out without a great deal of effort. The rest the commenters took out with effective and relentless tearing down of their argument.
I know I haven’t posted here before but WTF are you on about, really ?
If someone posted hundreds of articles focussed exclusively on bad Jews then turned around and said oh no Im not against all Jews just the bad ones who would believe them.
David T has been demonising the Muslim community for years - even going to the Der Sturmer of Islamophobia the Express with an anti-Muslim story.
Hopefully he’s turned over a new leaf; but I doubt it.
He simply dislikes Muslims too much.
“As I understand from reading Harry’s Place over the last few years, he became interested in Islamist politics in Britain for two main reasons; one being that close personal friends died in the twin towers, the other that he was a good friend of Anjum Chaudhry at university. Also, being the son of an immigrant, he tends to take an interest in second generation issues.”
And you forgot to mention he is a rabid apologist for Isarels worse excesses -and Israel is of course occupying land of a people who are predominantly (though not exclusively) Muslim
Heres Mark Elf a decent moderate Jewish commentator on David T
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2007/12/i-swear-this-blog-is-going-down-toube.html
The outing of David T
http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2007/10/outing-of-david-t.html
ah yes of course, ‘rabid’, he is veritably foaming at the mouth.
David T has done sterling work in exposing, explaining, outlining and confronting the agenda of Islamist politicians and activists in Britain, in particular the ones that drape themselves in the rhetoric of ‘multiculturalism’ to advance their sectarian and reactionary agenda. For that, he has many enemies amongst those who begrudge him for shining a light on their process and agenda. For that work though, he has my support.
Moremedianonsense
I am not sure I want to respond to something using swear words even if they are in acronym form.
Refresh - DavidT had nothing to do with Faisal Bodi in that context. I’m under no obligation to explain anything, other than refute false allegations.
And I have no idea either about what you meant above when you said I should ‘take a bow’.
Sunny
‘I’m under no obligation to explain anything, other than refute false allegations.’
Quite right.
‘And I have no idea either about what you meant above when you said I should ‘take a bow’.’
It was a complement. You will recall, at one time PP wasn’t that far removed from HP in terms of style and content. A discernable editorial shift and active policing below the line made PP a better place.
Heck I even recall you wanting me to go back to Al Queda.
Heady days!
billy
“David T has done sterling work in exposing, explaining, outlining and confronting the agenda of Islamist politicians and activists in Britain,”
Er no… he learnt that some Muslims were renting a local council swimming pool went there with his daughter then true leftie that he is went to the Express and Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-560231/Public-pool-bars-father-son-Muslim-swimming-session.html
“First they came for the men who tried to get into the swimming session restricted to children only,
And I didn’t speak up because I have children too.
Then they came for the men who tried to get into the swimming session restricted to women only,
And I didn’t speak out because I too have a wife, and a mother, and a sister.
Then they came for the men who tried to get into the swimming session restricted to Haredis,
And I didn’t speak up because Haredis are part of the Chosen People.
Then they came for the men who tried to gatecrash the swimming session restricted to Muslim males,
And I did speak up, in fact I screamed about it at the top of my voice
to the Daily Mail, the Guardian and the Telegraph.
I managed to whip up quite some anti-Muslim hysteria.
You see, I was angling for a promotion at Cleary, Gottlieb, Steen and Hamilton.”
billy Would be fascinated to know what precisely you think that agenda is? You dont subscribe to the far right notion of “Eurabia”- the planned Muslim takeover of Europe do you? Guffaw.
“The outing of David T
http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2007/10/outing-of-david-t.html”
It’s hard to take someone seriously who bases their opinions on those of Neil Clark, a man so enormously stupid he once had a conversation with an advertising spambot on his own blog.
P.
“Er no… he learnt that some Muslims were renting a local council swimming pool went there with his daughter then true leftie that he is went to the Express and Mail.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-560231/Public-pool-bars-father-son-Muslim-swimming-session.html”
Sorry, Mediasheep, do you agree with religious apartheid in swimming pools? A yes or no would do.
P.
#72
Oh no this is now going to turn into a badly acted Monty Python sketch!
Mediasheep,
You can confirm that was private hire? That wasn’t my understanding.
No, I don’t subscribe to that theory, Mediasheep.
What a sophisticated rhetorical strategy you have, fella.
Moremedianonsense
I owe you an apology. You did say you hadn’t posted here before.
Looking back, I can see why my original comment must have seemed cryptic. I presume you were asking how you deal with the ‘locusts’, and I was simply trying to say Sunny had found the answer. In effect it was an unstated compact between the editor and the regulars. In this case the editor took the lead.
I wouldn’t want you to be put off from posting here by my terse response. All the regulars are pretty decent, and tend to defend their position best they can but are open to persuasion. So do stick around.
BTW I tend to avoid swear words whenever and wherever I can (for the sake of the children you understand).
Faisal Bodi was sacked by the Guaradian for using a racist epithet on his public CiF blog? I fail to see the controversey there.
It is expected that any other journalist in the same position would have been sacked. Would Bodi’s defenders on this thread want it any other way?
Refresh - no problem.
Just tell me the simple golden arrow answer to change the mind of ranting anti Muslim bigots, then we’ll be all fine.
And I don’t mean “Call them racist scum like they are”, however satisfying that might be.
Sid, we’re trying to have a serious debate.
I’ve been called a coconut but I didn’t feel like getting the person sacked. And wouldn’t have rejoiced if they had.
I’ve been asked if I had a work permit by a thug of a colleague, when working for a transnational headed by a foreigner, who did need a work permit. I didn’t take it any further. Just asking the colleague to go ask if the president had his was enough.
And this was from someone who used the phrase ‘nigger in a woodpile’ in one of his incompetent presentations.
I can also imagine that the incident you refer to was at a time when there was virulent baiting of ANY muslim contributor to CiF. And there was plenty of cheerleading from the HP-backed pack. A bit like a Sarah Palin rally.
From what Sunny is saying it was more than that. Perhaps one day we will find out.
‘Just tell me the simple golden arrow answer to change the mind of ranting anti Muslim bigots, then we’ll be all fine.’
That I am afraid I cannot answer. Changing anybody’s mind needs them to be open to discussion. What we see usually is ideologues who are fulfilling their objectives in pursuit of an agenda.
In the current climate a lot needs to happen. One of them has already happened, neo-cons in the US have been truly kicked out. Colin Powell was a great help too.
Another is change in the attitude of the UK government, I am hoping that the fact that the middle eastern money we now need to get us out of this neo-liberal economic mess will at least have some strings attached like stop the demonising.
As for individual blogs, I think Sunny can probably do a good job of advising others how to get rid of the bigots. It does need a critical mass of regulars who are decent and open minded, willing to learn as well as inform.
At every level, I guess you could say it comes from the top.
In fact Sid, there was a time when I thought the Guardian did very little to protect muslim contributors. One example was where they must have asked a woman to write about her husband, who had been rendered to Guantanamo Bay. She wrote a compelling piece about his innocence* and how he had not seen his children for three or four years including one born after his incarceration.
The comments that came back made me feel physically sick.
Lets put it this way, at any other time those commenters would have been sought out and put on some sort of child-protection register.
And you feel compelled to rejoice in someone getting the sack for calling someone coconut?
Heady days!
* In case anyone is wondering, I believe that person has since been released.
DavidT concentrates on specific, known political Islamist groups and ideologues whose proxies operate in the UK: Al Muhajiroun, Hizb ut Tahrir, Jamaat e Islami, Hezbollah or Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood, and their various front organisations. These are well-developed oufits who are responsible for politicising religious identity with the use of violent, supremacist and racist propaganda. They are a small but loud extremist minority of Muslims who have subverted Islam and Islamic identity and have geo-politicised it as a transnational religious entity.
A competing narrative, pushed most simplistically, but by no means exclusively, by the BNP, is to group all Muslims and conflate the religious beliefs of ordinary people with the ideology of religious extremists as a bloc which can then be labelled “The Muslims”. You know the score: “The Muslims” is a backward, violent Borg which is responsible for much of the political instability in the world.
Folks may remember that soon after 9/11 and for some time after, this was the only narrative that existed when it came to considering Muslims. Not only was this a damaging time to live through but it was, and still is, very dangerous. This narrative creates the kind of climate that benefits extremists from both sides in a self-fulfilling prophecy: The BNP are vindictated, swell in numbers while anti-Muslim bigotry radicalises more Muslims.
I happen to agree with David T on the first scenario. And when given the choice, most Muslims do too.
anas:
i dare say, rather like ken “didn’t know” that the reuben brothers were jewish either when he told them to go back to iran (they’re iraqi).
i’m fairly sure i’m to the left of david t politically but to the right religiously, so according to your definition, i expect you’d consider me a racist, too, so i’d actually like you to say it out loud if you think so.
refresh:
ah, the romance of rose-tinted 20-20 hindsight. i’m fairly sure you’re doing a teensy bit of wishful thinking here.
media sheep:
gosh, you’re open-minded, aren’t you? it’s the mirror image of “the children of israel have returned to our ancestral homeland to make the desert bloom, it was all swamps before we got here, you know, a land without a people for a people without a land”.
if it were up to people like you, we’d be the only group on the planet not entitled to national self-determination. it’s no wonder many israelis think “oom schmoom, who gives a feck what these people think, we’re not going to get a fair hearing either way.”
and i remember the swimming pool business, as i recall there was quite a lot of serious discussion about it, some of it with us here.
it is interesting that your response to this is to implicitly compare david t a nazi. he lodged a reasonable objection to what he saw as an abuse of public facilities. i don’t see any death camps here, do you?
and go sid at #82.
b’shalom
bananabrain
“I am hoping that the fact that the middle eastern money we now need to get us out of this neo-liberal economic mess will at least have some strings attached like stop the demonising.”
Its a hope, but although money talks, it doesnt usually think.
#84 Fair point.
Bananabrain,
‘ah, the romance of rose-tinted 20-20 hindsight. i’m fairly sure you’re doing a teensy bit of wishful thinking here.’
Sadly you went AWOL at the time.
Although I use the BNP to make the point in #82 of the dessimination of the “Muslim bloc identity”, many Muslims, sadly, push this line too.
There is the line that can be heard by Takfiris, that if you don’t support Hizbut Tahrir/Jamaat (what have you) then you are a sellout/coconut. So if there is demonisation and guilt by association, some Muslims are as much to blame for peddling this as the BNP.
The stormy relationship between Anas and I on the subject of Israel is well-documented but I am quite sure that he didn’t know that Toube is a Jewish name. Some names are only obviously Jewish to Jewish people. Lewis, for example, is often a Jewish name (cf Levi), as is Cowan and (in Scotland) Raeburn (cf Reuben), but whenever I’ve mentioned this to non-Jews they’ve been astonished.
Also, I don’t think it’s Anas’s style to try and imply bias by the back door in that way. I may not agree with 90% of what he says but he’s nothing if not straightforward.
Sid, why don’t you transfer to HP? Perhaps a fee could be agreed. You’re clearly wasted here.
Why don’t you transfer to somewhere else, Refresh? No fee needed. You can do it for free.
Refresh, do you actually have a serious point to make, are you here to divert and cloud the waters or are you here as the light relief? I ask because none of it seems to be working out for you.
fair enough, katy. i’d still like to know if he thinks i’m a racist or not.
refresh, i wasn’t awol. i just didn’t feel a need to put my oar in.
b’shalom
bananabrain
this is hilarious. Mr ‘I have lots of muslim friends so i’ll tell you wagwan from my awami league spun view of bethnalganj and bro”….
“In Tower Hamlets the council is now effectively under the control of Islamic Forum Europe, a tidied up version of Al Muhajirun. Imagine the BNP before the suites in their Doc Martins and bomber jackets.”
I feel you are hearing displaced anger mixing it with your own and making a mess all over the kitchen floor. It is in Awami League interests to amplify the demonosity of Islamic Organisations in east london. Its a historical animosity, and nothing uk peeps can do about it. Your statement is interesting because through is one gets a sense of how Abdul Kahar came to be attacked by police acting on ‘tip offs’, an unrelated grudge.
IFE is not in charge of the council, what your Mandelsonian mates are narked at is that the Puppet Master Michael Keith got electorally decapitated (May 2006) and his brown and white stooges looked stupid enough for locals to legitimise another representative in his place.
and what did al muhajirun use to do? stick ‘voting is religiously unlawful/tantamount to non-belief in islam’ stickers all over the place.
ife is nothing like almuhajirun, it has a totally different geneology and attracts a very different type of person. Please count on your finger the bengali brit muslim youth found to be involved in terrorism?
then what purpose is their to your slur? what race/class/thickness ‘issues’ does it actually conceal? what feuls your poisonous fingers?
ife and ymo are among the most grass rootsy muslim organisations in the uk. Not the most cerebral, but not malevolent. Comparisons to the mojos and pre-suited BNP are seriously wrong, and Toubian.
Sid’s adoration of David T is a manifestation of his own self-worship and cry for help. On one hand he agrees with David T and on the other hand he professes to understand Syed Hosain Nasr, a prominent and ‘very nonsecular’ Islamic thinker. Similarly people who are allegedly ‘his mates’ get his approval. This is partially due to his displaced anger, but ultimately its root cause is his own neo-literacy.
Sid, I think you’ll find I have made several serious points.
Billy, I don’t post, I comment as you do. Sid posts and some of them are better placed on HP.
What business is it of the commenters to tell the writers of a blog that you voluntarily visit, to go somewhere else? It’s just stupid, Refresh. You should know better.
What does ‘neo-literacy’ mean?
Did you just make that one up?
And this is where I start getting it from the Takfiris.
Cue fugstar!
Sid’s adoration of David T is a manifestation of his own self-worship and cry for help. On one hand he agrees with David T and on the other hand he professes to understand Syed Hosain Nasr, a prominent and ‘very nonsecular’ Islamic thinker. Similarly people who are allegedly ‘his mates’ get his approval. This is partially due to his displaced anger, but ultimately its root cause is his own neo-literacy.
David T is a fellow blogger, whose ideas on political Islam I am in complete agreement with. We’re kind of the same age and have had similar experiences with friends stigmatised by Islamist politics.
Seyyed Hossain Nasr was my professor when I lived and studied in the US and I have travelled in Egypt with him. He was kicked out of his home in Iran when the Shah was deposed and was taken over by the Ayatollah Khomeini. The Ayatollah also tried to have him killed. His books are still banned in Iran. I have total respect for him am in complete agreement with him on his ideas on political Islam.
Dear me fungus, “self-worship and cry for help”? and even “neo-literacy”?
Try to, for once, if you can, to engage the ideas rather than feeble, unintelligible personal attacks that make you look rather foolish. That’s a message to Refresh too, of course.
It depends on where you/we think PP should be going. You could take Bananabrain’s position and suggest some sort of closer link between PP and HP. Or you could take the view, which I believe many do, PP is nothing like HP.
If Sid wants to rehabilitate HP then that would be great, he has a job to do on HP. If he wants to let us know that DavidT is turning over a new leaf, that’s fine too. I and others are not convinced.
I think a neo-literate is someone who understands the sequels to the Matrix.
Personally, “demonosity” was my favourite. Goddamned bunch of fork-tailed bandits.
soru - hur, hur, hur.
jai - i liked that too. but i prefer “demonositude”, it has a sort of don king splendiferoutasticity to it.
that’s not precisely what i mean, refresh. i think that PP and HP have more in common than you care to admit. the major differences are a) the dominant perspectives of the denizens b) the below-the-line policy and c) the level of invective, which is rather linked to b). one of the reasons i post here, rather than HP, is that people are more polite and considered, although on balance, i disagree about the same amount for various different reasons. like many, i don’t enjoy constant firefights with people who have no intention of opening their minds to possibility (morgoth springs to mind) in an environment in which name-calling and abuse take the place of reasoned argument, as much as i enjoy invective from time to time. plus, i don’t have much to learn from the people at HP, whereas over here there is a good selection of people who i can at least respect whether i agree with them or not.
also - it’s kind of “brown” here, which is valuable to me as i don’t have access to such a forum in my daily life at this point.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Who is a takfiri?
The only label i remember characterising your textually expressed religious character with is ’skin deep’. And that is a result of your dogmatic secularist approach to everything, which you very well know.
but does it feel better to play the alleged ‘prog’?
I’m sorry you had a bad 90s, but your muslimosis (sickness of muslims and all their doings) is not my doing, it is more your responsibility than my doing. Your (past)abdications and (present)cluelessness are noted and probably linked.
Never have you distinguished a significant positive element is modern or nonmodern islamic thought for your readers, you are pretty hopeless.
hmmm
neo-literacy
A characteristic of someone who is drunk on their own alleged ‘educational’ superiority. A common impediment of the Captive and Colonised Mind, it lends the afflicted thought and writing a circular, zealous and libelous ring. On close examination the lack of substance becomes clear, the houses are empty.
Web 2.0 has promoted the neo-literate, who actually doesn’t want to understand or learn anything, into incompetance. Enabled by self-selection and intellectually ghettoised by malice, the noisy media, propaganda and his own bad antenna, the neo-literate is only able to mislead people with his tricks.
I did say fugstar was genius.
Bananabrain, in general I comment here for the same sort of reasons.
‘i think that PP and HP have more in common than you care to admit.’
I admit it was the case in the early days. Surely not now?
gosh, i don’t think i’d be able to say.
b’shalom
bananabrain
#102 - Who is a takfiri?
Here is a definition for you:
When Muslim A sees Muslim B criticise extremist organisations such as the al Muhajiroun, Hizb ut Tahrir, Jamaat e Islami, Hezbollah or Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood etc for their anti-Islamic activities, Muslim A curls his lip, oozes bile and proceeds to call Muslim B a brown sahib/coconut/munafiq/kafir/apostate/colonised/drunk on their own alleged ‘educational’ superiority etc.
In this case, Muslim A is a takfiri.
That sums you up perfectly, fugstar. To a degree that is comedic, and uncanny. A case of projection I think.
Refresh, your obsession with HP is getting to silly proportions. We have somewhat diverging views on subjects on HP as well as PP. Trying to make both into monolithic blocks is rather silly. You could compare David and my views, but they’re not necessarily reflective of both blogs wholly. Now please, get over it.
You could have said obsession if the post hadn’t specifically invited a debate on DavidT and HP.
munafiq/kafir/apostate not really used to be fair, which reveals the neo-literalism of your fudged definition, but feel free to self flagellate your symbolic errors wont really be recognised by many here.
besides i write quite pretty things when i intend oh blind, biased, bilesome and righteously indignant one. how are the beans? toast?
Re post 88: Thanks Katy
Toube doesnt really differentiate itself as a particularly Jewish sounding name to me, as opposed to German, French, etc.
i’m fairly sure i’m to the left of david t politically but to the right religiously, so according to your definition, i expect you’d consider me a racist, too, so i’d actually like you to say it out loud if you think so.
Huh? i dont consider u a racist. but if u were in the habit of making it ur duty to defend those actions of the israeli state which served to perpetuate and extend a system of apartheid and racial segregation i would no doubt change my mind.
i don’t make it my “duty”, but i do defend actions which i think merit defending and condemn those i think are harmful. i just think that you and i have very different ideas about what those are.
b’shalom
bananabrain
I have made an effort to read all the comments, but I ran out of steam after 60 or 70.
A few thoughts:
1) Billy, I haven’t come across you before. I wouldn’t accuse most people here — even ones I have clashed with on occasion — of setting out to be tribal warriors but they have sometimes given the wrong impression. I suggest that’s largely because they have convinced themselves that the means justify the ends, which is a very dangerous game. They need to learn that race politics is not like party politics. I suggest you go over previous posts for a bit of context.
2) If DavidT is trying to set the record straight — i.e. doubleback because he regrets giving the wrong impression — then I don’t see the problem. If you believe in redemption and forgiveness — as I do — then it’s where you’re at that matters not where you’re from.
3) “Commenters” is an odd word isn’t it? Maybe it’s just me.
I wonder if Dave T will support the efforts of many people in rescinding the appalling ban on InterPal which is so far guilty of no crime other than Humaitarian help to Palestinians.
Interpal faces the unfair closure of its accounts by LloydsTSB without having been found guilty of any crime. Even though 2 million Muslims and I don’t know how many Palestinians have helped bail them out of their mess.
Surely innocent until proven guilty applies.
Come on DaveT get campaigning on HP and show us Muslims you know what it is like and stand with us on a major issue of unfairness.
I will certainly run a piece on it.
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/17/lloyds-tsb-to-close-interpals-bank-account/
I’m glad that you recanted from calling people ‘tribal warriors’ without naming them specifically. It was a pejorative phrase and didn’t seem suitable for the people here who are on the whole good people, even when they say things I might not agree with, as far as the writers here are concerned.
Dave T - There you have it your position is quite clear.
I’m sure that if the JNF was facing such a position then you’d be leading a campaign.
So sad that people don’t see HP for what it is.
So to Sid and all those that thought HP was a place for raising such issues you can see for your own selves what they truly think.
I wonder if Dave T supporters such as Ms. Newton will now rethink their positions????
Should InterPal be subject to the legal process or mob law?
billy, as everyone here knows I haven’t recanted a thing, merely qualified and softened my words. Don’t overestimate yourself. I don’t play debating society games. If I ever recant, I will say it from the top of my voice. Run along now.