here is another case of Human rights abuse that gets ignored; Pakistan and currently even worse Bangladesh’s treatment of minorities.

Yes in press free India we get to hear about all sorts of opression and human strife, that goes on there, yes there is no migration to its neighbours. Is it just the western expectation that muslim states will abuse people to the point that they will leave thier homeland?

Pakistans (and Bangladesh’s) minorities have been in constant decline since thier inception.

Today Pakistans Hindus are overwhelmingly concentrated in Sind where they are some 8% of the population. Mostly they are clubbed under Tharis, the various ethnic groups living in the marginal and arid Thar region. Most Sindhis left after partition, these people of Sindh are more closely related to Rajasthan and Gujarat. Infact until the 1965 war the areas that was formerly Sangrur (now split into 5 districts) was a Hindu majority. These people have been forced out of their own country (Pakistan) in the last few decades, but where is the big news???

We hear about Pakistan claiming muslim majority Kashmir in which article 370(relating to migrationand settlement) is protected, but ethically cleansed Sangrur???

Yes hello Musharaff, its a desert, but are you going to wake up to this? Oh wait a minute these poor tribals dont have any ‘freedom fighters’ ehem. Maybe if they blew up a few people then it might grab someones attention.

These people or any non-muslim minority has little representation, they cannot ever hope to govern their district, proviince state or nation.Not while the presrnt sytem exists. In Pakistan minorities can only represent minorities, not be a part of the nation, No Abdul Kallams or Manmohan Singh equivalents.

Sharia and Hudud are an abuse of non-muslims.

Is Islam Compatible With Democracy and Human Rights?
” Islam has never favoured democratic tendencies…”
Hurgronje [277]
” The Democratic system that is predominant in the world is not a suitable system for the peoples of our region… The system of free elections is not suitable to our country”
King Fahd of Saudi Arabia
At least King Fahd has had the honesty to admit the incompatibility of Islam and Democracy. Meanwhile Western Islamic apologists and modernising Muslims continue to look for democratic principles in Islam and Islamic history.

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/index.html

Update: 7 out of the 9 non-muslim ministers who submitted a joint memo on religious conversion have withdrawn it after a barrage of sharp criticism from muslim ministers. Politics as usual.

Joint Press Statement
Muslim men object to the passing of the Islamic Family Law Bill 2005
3 January 2006

We are a group of Muslim men deeply concerned at the recent passing of the Islamic Family Law (Federal Territories) (Amendment) Bill 2005 by the Senate. We are gravely concerned about the fact that the Bill was passed even though there were at least 12 women senators who had strongly objected to five clauses in the Bill (The Star, Friday, 23 December 2005). Civilian opposition to the Bill by several women, whether individuals or from non-governmental organizations, has also been covered consistently by the mainstream media.

As Muslim men – some of us married and some of us not – we believe that marriage in Islam is based on principles of justice, respect, equality and kindness. Thus, when there are clauses in the Bill that make it easier for men to, among other things, practice polygamy and institute divorce, we feel that it is completely justified that there are several objections to it and that several individuals are extremely hurt. After all, as many Muslim men and women can attest to, there are several women who are now already suffering greatly due to highly selective application of Islamic family laws that are already stacked against women.

Our belief in Islam is premised on the fact that Islam promises and enshrines gender equality and respect for universal human dignity and rights, as mentioned explicitly in the Holy Qur’an, Surah Al Ahzab, Verse 35:

For Muslim men and women, – for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God’s praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward.

Hence, in light of the issues that have been brought up with this Bill, we believe that these sensitive Islamic principles have been severely compromised. We thus call on:

The Government not to gazette this Bill in the Federal Territory,
The States to put a moratorium on the application of this Bill in the state Shariah laws,
The Government to draft a new Muslim Family Law based on the principles of justice and equality,
The media to create a space that allows the public to air their concerns on this issue in a fair and balanced manner, and
Our fellow citizens of all faiths and all walks of life to speak up and come up with a more just solution to this issue.

We stress that as Muslim men, we do not want to reap the apparent benefits of a system that perpetuates itself by perpetrating injustice towards women. Such a system means that, as men, we then derive such privileges merely on the basis of our gender. We object to this because it is blatantly unjust. In a just society, men and women will enjoy relations that are based on mutual respect, equality and justice.

Sincerely,
Muslim Men for Gender Equality

Consisting of:
Aaren Azhar, student
Abd. Azharyl bin Abd Rahman, production/audio lighting designer, 23 years old
Adi Irwan bin Aziz, cameraman, 29 years old
Afif Izmier Ahmad, student, Perak, 19 years old
Amar Ihsan Ahmad, student, Perak. 18 years old
Aminullah Ali, trader, Terengganu, 35 years old
Amni Amry, born Muslim, 35 years old, loving husband of 2 years, “‘NO!’ to a Bill that doesn’t capture Islam’s spirit of fairness!”
Awangku Irawan b. Awang Mohd Umar Ali, 24 years old, jobless
Danial bin Abdul Rahman, law student, Muslimin khalifah of the future, concerned with the present
Danial Ma, researcher
Dzulkifly Aminuddin, husband and father of two
Farid Howladar, global Muslim
Hamdan bin Harun, assistant director, 37 years old
Hazri bin Haili, concerned IPTA student, son, nephew and grandson
Hirwan Zubir, Business Development Manager
Husri Hj Husain, director, 35 years old, “We can’t live without women!”
Johan Imran, Manager
Khairul Abiddin bin Rehan, 32 years old, looking for a job and for love
Mirzan Mahathir, businessman
Mohammed Reza bin Sallehuddin, son
Mohd Azmyl bin Md Yusof, lecturer
Mohd Faisal Shah, Student, Selangor, 18 years old
Mohd Fariz Kamaruddin, engineer & future husband
Mustafa Abdullah Sharp, husband
Nik Badli Shah Nik Abdullah, retired government officer
Nik M. Fahmee, father of two (indeed)
Rozali bin Ahmad, medical professional, husband, father
Shanon Shah bin Mohd. Sidik, writer/musician
Surain Azhar, self employed
Yusof bin A. Aziz, retiree

I think one of them,Mirzan Mahathir, is the former PM’s son.

Yes.

‘I thought Muslims had cheek to declare Malaysia a Muslim country even with just 51% majority. ‘

Er that was a strategic move by Mahathir to undercut the PAS (Islamists). Mere naming as supposed to changing any facts on the ground such as the secular civil code or introducing real sharia law nationwide. Ayway the primacy of muslims and islam had been assured from the word go, thanks to the colonial British appeasement of the muslim sultans’ sensibilities preindependence.

“The actual “bumiputras” are Christian aint they?”

If you mean the only the tribal people some are, others are animists. But since the term is generally taken to mean any indigenous malay person, the majority are muslim.

“I’m also interested in your take on the whole Morrthy-conversion-case in Malaysia”

It has sent the minorities- all of them, chinese, indian, sikh, hindu, christian- into nervous shock. Check out the English language blogs for the collective sense of outrage. This article and others on the Malaysian Consultative Council for Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism (MCCBCHS) website gives a fair idea of the outrage and unease. http://mccbchs.bobjots.org/?p=18

The mccbhs’s nightly candlelight vigils outside the courthouse in KL attracted good crowds until the government stepped in and advised them to stop, fearing an escalation of tension. Quite few hindu groups have coalesced into a hindu front to protest.

All 9 non-muslim members of the cabinet delivered a joint memorandum to the PM on religious conversion. This is totally unprecedented in malaysian politics and seen as as an act of disloyalty and worse, blackmail(such is the hysteria of msian politics) muslim ministers. The Malaysian Bar website has good articles and a forum discussion on this: http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&func=view&catid=36&id=571#571

All in all, the resistance by the minorities has been stiff and unexpected.

Malaysia’s minorities are a tame lot, used to buckling down to the status quo or leaving but this incident has brought the unpleasant reality of Islamic supremacism to the fore.

There have been other recent issues related to the encroachment of regressive sharia/islamist into public life. The Islamic family law was recently amended to make polygamy and divorce easier for muslim men (also made it easier for men to encroach upon their wives’ property rights). Muslim and other women’s groups are up in arms about that. check out the Women’s Aid Org website http://www.wao.org.my/news/20060101mfl.htm

Minorities and many liberal muslims fear even the shadow of the sharia.

Really Mirax? I thought Muslims had cheek to declare Malaysia a Muslim country even with just 51% majority. The actual “bumiputras” are Christian aint they? I’m also interested in your take on the whole Morrthy-conversion-case in Malaysia.

And Sunny do read Rohin’s views on Mishra on the ither thread… Its not as if only “communalists” dislike Mishra.

Yes there are bastards everywhere in subcontinent. But you cant compare India (a country with its Sikh PM and Muslim prez) to Pakistan (where a non-Muslim cant hold and public office). Its exactly this kind of ill-informed comparision and the tendency of MSM to gloss over historical contexts and continued persecution of minorities in Pakistan and BDesh whlist harping on the doldrums of Gujarat.

thanks.

1. Tamils can be hindu, christian, muslim or atheist. I don’t really know about serious religious discrimination against Tamils, not even in Srilanka.

2. yes, Tamils are generally dark skinned as most South Indians are. But there’s variation from what the african-americans would term high yellow to the richest, deepest black. And yes, there’s discrimination based on skin hue – not least amongst tamils themselves! Subcontinentals are unnaturally hung up on skin colour on the whole. I think that for many tamils, being out of India itself, can be a big relief. SE Asia is not a particularly oppressive place for tamils at all, if that is what you are getting at.

FWIW, I never think of myself as being one of ‘you guys’ and so answering your question feels somewhat weird. I hate being tied down to my ethnic, religious,caste identity markers as that is truly the subcontinental curse.

Here’s a 16-year old msian Indian blogger, in the vein of PP’s very own Vickrant – his take on the issue is worth the read: http://rajanr.com/2005/12/29/non-muslims-have-no-remedy/#comments

yes, that’s mentioned in the book too.
out of curiosity, what’s your ethnicity Mirax?