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  • Do we want Nick Griffin to get convicted?


    by Rohin
    17th January, 2006 at 9:02 pm    

    I hardly need discuss whether BNP leader Nick Griffin is a racist git, in fact I’m sure that’s one thing upon which most of our readers can agree. But as he goes on trial along with BNP member Mark Collett, should we really be hoping he goes down?

    Both men are charged with using words or behaviour intended or likely to stir up racial hatred.

    The trial itself has caused controversy, with protestors clashing outside the court. Pub Philosopher has an interesting comparison of the media’s numerical inconsistency. The Recorder of Leeds (I don’t know what that means), Judge Norman Jones, said that the protestors were trying to influence the outcome of the trial and remarked:

    “People have every right to expound views in relation to any argument. This is a free society and it is important that public demonstration is permitted.”

    So should Nick Griffin be allowed to criticise Muslims?

    The charges centre around footage from the BBC documentary, The Secret Agent. Whilst what Griffin said was bullshit (Muslims = evil yadda yadda), if he is convicted for criticising Islam, will it mean that in future people will have trouble criticising Islam or any other religion?

    The prosecutor today said:

    “We agree that freedom of expression is an important right but it cannot be unfettered,” he said.

    “No society can permit disapproval of another race to be expressed in such strong terms that hatred be stirred up against people on the basis of race or ethnicity.”

    Cambridge graduate Griffin is also a blogger. He’s set up a blog entitled ‘Free Speech on Trial’, but I ain’t linking to that shit yo’.

    I’m not trying to influence you either way, but would like to hear some opinions.

    Some have been erroneously trying to equate this case with the concurrent trial of Abu Hamza al-Masri. Hamza faces far more serious charges (including soliciting the murder of Jews and terrorism offences).


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    Filed in: Current affairs,Race politics,Religion






    92 Comments below   |  

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    1. Opinionated Voice

      [...] The BNP, (British Nazi Party) has been in Court facing race hate charges. The Guardian reports that the Court heard that the weasel leader of the British National party, Nick Griffin, had told a crowd that white society had turned into a multiracial hell hole; was recorded on videotape describing Islam as a “wicked, vicious faith”; and allegedly said in a speech that young Asian men were “seducing and raping white girls in this town right now”. Apparantly Griffin thinks hate comments are encompassed by the right to free speech, but fails to extend this rationale when others do the same. Lets all look forward to a Guilty verdict for the hypocrite. [...]




    1. Col. Mustafa — on 17th January, 2006 at 9:30 pm  

      I don’t think Abu or Nick should go down for what thier saying.

      I would much rather see them educated on thier views.
      I mean kind of rehabilitating them for a certain period of time until they get it.
      Openly talk to them, find out what thier problem is, council them, explain the actions and reactions of what thier saying or implying.

      Im well aware it won’t work in many peoples cases i.e Abu Mamza who most probably will spit in your face.
      But everyone has a certain understanding side to them and its about getting through to them with the right method and person that can relate to them.

      I think there should be more focus on trying to i suppose forcefully educate people or atleast making them more aware of everything there doing.

      In Nick Griffins case, he has a degree from Cambridge so hes obviously literate and understands certain things.
      I don’t know what he studied, but im figuring alot of what he preaches in his own mind he knows hes talking crap.
      But alot of the people he preaches to don’t always know that. So its quite mischevious in a way and i think hes well aware of what the causes of this are.

      The BNP’S focus is clearly on islam in todays climate for obvious reasons.
      They like to paint a picture that all muslims following the religion are to blame and also the religion itself.
      Now that kind of causes problems but they want that.
      Same goes for all the nutcase islamists out there spreading hate for all non muslims, its misleading and doesn’t help anyone or anything.

      I would say try and make people see reason and confront themselves as to what thier really doing, its not easy to do, but then what else can you do.
      Lock em up and some new ones are right round the corner.

    2. kismet hardy — on 17th January, 2006 at 9:51 pm  

      I feel sorry for Nick Griffin. He spouts as much evil bile as Abu Hamza, yet Abu Hamza gets to make the front page of The Sun everytime, while the most he can hope for is a pg 8 short in The Daily Express.

      He must feel like how Jodie Marsh feels about Jordan, the only difference being they’re just a pair of pointless tits, while the other two are glamour models.

    3. Col. Mustafa — on 17th January, 2006 at 9:55 pm  

      “He must feel like how Jodie Marsh feels about Jordan, the only difference being they’re just a pair of pointless tits, while the other two are glamour models.”

      hehehehe

    4. Rohin — on 17th January, 2006 at 10:03 pm  

      Very good kismet.

      We’re such party animals eh? I’m getting a flood of insulting texts for not going.

    5. kismet hardy — on 17th January, 2006 at 10:11 pm  

      Flood of tears my friend. Without you, how can there possibly be a party?

    6. Don — on 17th January, 2006 at 10:19 pm  

      Colonel Mustapha,

      Should you and I ever fall out, and you gain the upper hand; imprison me, shoot me, tie me to a tree and call me Brenda, but don’t ‘forcefully re-educate’ me. Too chilling a prospect.

      As for Nick Griffin’s intellect, that level of sustained racism, not as an unpleasant character trait but as your raison d’etre, is more pathological than cerebral. Yes, he has turned it into a career

      No, of course he shouldn’t go down. For one thing a sentence long enough to be useful is out of the question. Realistically, a maximum of what? Three months in Belmarsh and a scramble among the scummier press for his ‘Prison Writings’?

      Oh, yeah. Also the freedom of speech thing. Got to be big enough to accommodate scum.

    7. Rohin — on 17th January, 2006 at 10:29 pm  

      “Should you and I ever fall out, and you gain the upper hand; imprison me, shoot me, tie me to a tree and call me Brenda, but don’t ‘forcefully re-educate’ me. Too chilling a prospect.”

      Forceful re-education.

    8. Col. Mustafa — on 17th January, 2006 at 10:50 pm  

      loooool, if i had the job of re-educating these fools, they would go nuts.

      That dude from Batman begins walks into a room and they go crazy; kinda like that but not as quick as he did it.
      He was using drugs after all, in my case ill be on the drugs.

      The occasional trip paid by the government ofcourse might come in handy too.

    9. kismet hardy — on 17th January, 2006 at 11:20 pm  

      “The occasional trip paid by the government ofcourse might come in handy too”

      An acid tab only costs £3 bro

    10. NorahJones — on 17th January, 2006 at 11:23 pm  

      Community service. In Alum Rock.

    11. Old Pickler — on 17th January, 2006 at 11:25 pm  

      Should Nick Griffin be allowed to criticise Islam? Yes, of course. Anyone should be allowed to criticise any religion. Should he - morally, not legally - use criticism of Islam as a cover for racism? No, that is wrong. Is it illegal, though? Well, is he inciting violence and racial hatred? That is for the court to decide on the evidence.

      The BNP use criticism of Islam as a cover for “Paki-bashing”. They are evil scumbags. However, though Griffin has sailed very close to the wind, legally he has almost certainly remained within the law, whereas Abu Hamza almost certainly has not.

      The best way, in the long term, to deal with the BNP is to debate their views openly, and expose them for the evil racists that they are, rather than to muzzle them.

    12. Rohin — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:10 am  

      “The best way, in the long term, to deal with the BNP is to debate their views openly, and expose them for the evil racists that they are, rather than to muzzle them.”

      Sort of. Muzzling anyone makes them a cause celebre, just as HuT’s banning made them into some sort of martyrs amongst easily-influenced Muslims who had not previously expressed any funda thoughts.

      Discussing openly is fine - but it’s difficult not to risk granting false credibility to people that don’t deserve it. In much the same way that evolutionists have often refused to debate Intelligent Design, as they feel this would lend it some sort of importance - the fact it has to be debated.

      Exposing them as racists is important - but to me, the best way to deal with them is to ignore them. If the papers don’t cover any BNP or Islamic fundamentalist news at all, most people will gradually forget them.

    13. Col. Mustafa — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:19 am  

      Most of the BNP’s followers that actually cause the problems are the younger ones.
      The older lot just tell em like it is, so even if the papers didn’t cover them it wouldn’t mean they would stop hating pakis.
      Lets take oldham for e.g, it doesn’t matter what the papers covered over there, the asians and whites just don’t get on.
      They might of been able to live side by side had it not been for the BNP coming in and causing more tension.
      But to be honest theres loads of factors playing a role in these situations from both sides.
      When that happens the papers are forced to write about it, or the news will cover it.
      Sure Nicky baby won’t get headline status but hatred will still be spread whereever its easiest to spread.

    14. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:45 am  

      Thankfully the American Right Wing wacko bloggers havnt yet picked up on this story to revel in their nauseating schadenfreude over ‘Eurabia’.
      Doesnt mainland Europe have laws which proscribe the denial of holocaust and overt Nazi propoganda ?
      They of course love talking about the death of free speech in Europe, while conveniently ignoring that Anti-Semitic speech has long been banned in mainland european nations.

    15. Don — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:50 am  

      Rohin,

      That’ s the first time I’ve seen the BNP/ID point made. Very compelling, but probably worth a full post. (Ain’t blogging demanding?).

      As you are (obviously) aware man-of-the-moment Dawkins settled his differences with Gould on that very point.

      By the way, the ‘Standards, people’ thing was not a pop at your stewardship but an irrascible late-night response to a bike-sheddy tendency by fellow posters.

    16. Rohin — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:53 am  

      Has it? I know Germany has a few laws related to the WWII political fallout. I’m not aware of any specific anti-holocaust denial laws in place in the UK, does anyone know?

      I’ve personally read literature produced by an Islamic group who claimed that the holocaust was, “at best, exaggerated and at worst, entirely fictional”. This was being handed out in a London street. I’ve not heard of a law saying this was illegal though.

    17. BevanKieran — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:59 am  

      From stop the BNP website

      Griffin has never withdrawn his views on the Holocaust that landed him with a suspended prison sentence in 1998. His publication The Rune, which denied that the Holocaust ever took place, resulted in a conviction for inciting racial hatred under the Public Order Act.

    18. kismet hardy — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:00 am  

      So a few fundos think the systematic wipeout of thousands of innocent Jews didn’t happen sixty odd years ago. Millions of intelligent, civilised, folk deny there are hundreds of innocent Muslim kids being wiped out today.

      If killing people isn’t against the law, saying you don’t like them very much can hardly warrant being made illegal

    19. Rohin — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:03 am  

      Nah, it’s cool Don - things did get a bit smutty. Although, it has to be said, I’m normally a man of smut.

      Hmm…I’ll get thinking about ID/BNP posting material. About Dawkins - I missed most of ‘The Root of All Evil’ but have been reading about it online. He used the phrase “oxygen of respectability” when referring to Creationists. That’s kind of the point I’m getting at. Discussing the BNP like any other political party runs this risk.

      Actually - now you mention that Bevan, I think there is something specifically about Jews in the law of the UK AMfD. I remember hearing about it on the BBC. When the new religious hatred bill was being discussed a few months ago, one commentator said that British law already has specific clauses for the protection of Sikhs and Jews. Whether that refers to the holocaust too, I don’t know. Is there an online version of UK law? Must be…

    20. jamal — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:13 am  

      Why “should Nick Griffin be allowed to criticise Muslims” with his racist words of hatred? He shouldnt. What a silly point to think he should be allowed, let alone to write an entire article about it!

      He definatly should be found guilty and sent to prison (if the court so decides), particularly when the BNP itselfs posts articles complaining when people are called “white trash” and applauding when people are convicted for callling people “white trash”.

    21. BevanKieran — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:36 am  

      Mark Collet, the co-accused, did come up with nice little racist ditty:

      “Show the ethnics the door in 2004.”

      Thankfully the far-right have a imbecilic leader and party who cannot disturb our multi-ethnic conspiracy,sorry nation. Richard Thurlow’s “Fascism in Britain” gives a good account of why the far-right have never got a decent foothold in British politics. One reason was the poor electoral strengh of the Communists in Britain. The beneficial, contrapuntal relationship which they lacked with the far-red is the reason why they play and exaggerate the rise of political Islam in Britain.

      Overt holocaust denial, subtle admiration for Hitler and the Nazis does go against the grain of British history. For all their claims of pride in “their” country, the least patriotic act I have ever seen was at an England football when two members of the crowd (I assume far-right) performed a heil salute during the national anthem. The B.N.P are unmitigated scum.

      Speaking of conspiracies, the clock is ticking on when MPACuk somehow (it might stretch their bullshit capability to the limit) link Nick Griffin with those pesky Zionists.

    22. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:56 am  

      Being a staunch civil libertarian, I am very uneasy with people getting punished for views and words which are not triggers for immediate violence.

      I do think the West needs to find a solution to Islamophobia without curtailing free speech rights of its citizens. I know in UK things are not that bad, but in the US you now have a constant stream of the most vicious kind of Islamphobic diatribe over the net (LLF etc.), tv (Fox News etc.) and radio (Michael Savage etc.)
      I see an eery resemblance to the Anti-Semitism of the 1920s to 30s Europe.
      Another two or three 9-11 style attacks and the masses may very well turn on their Muslim co-citizens whose humanity has already been compromised by the constant barrage of Muslim bashing on tv, radio and the net.

    23. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:58 am  

      By LLF, I meant LLG (Little Green Footballs)

    24. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:59 am  

      Fuck! I mean LGF :)

    25. Jay Singh — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:12 am  

      Al Mujahid

      Unfortunately, the humanity of non-Muslim’s has been, and is being, so bashed that there are Muslim individuals out there reared on a diet of fundamentalism and hatred who are prepared to kill non Muslims in large numbers on the London Underground. I would say that at the moment the most menacing bigotry and hatred is being propounded by Islamists and fundamentalists because it has already begun to bear fruit in the corpses of the murdered by suicide-bombing in London. I am not sure that the comparison with 1930′s anti-semitism is either apt or appropriate.

      However, I agree that there is a need to ensure that Muslims are brought forth and allowed to speak and show that they are not all of the same belief system as Abu Hamza and this is a vital and neccessary task alongside the open and virulent oppositon to hatred and bigotry as propounded by Islamic fundamentalists who preach death and violence against non-believers.

    26. Old Pickler — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:13 am  

      the West needs to find a solution to Islamophobia

      No, Islam needs to reform to fit in with the West. Islam isn’t a race,

      Jews and Sikhs are protected under the current law on incitement to racial hatred as they are classified as races. There is no UK law against holocaust denial. Somebody tried to introduce one about ten years ago but didn’t succeed. Depending on the context and what else was said, possibly a holocaust-denying comment might also incide racial hatred.

    27. Jay Singh — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:15 am  

      It pains you to have to defend Nick Griffin, being the racist bastard that he is, but a custodial sentence runs the risk of turning him into a martyr.

    28. Jay Singh — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:19 am  

      Bevan Kieran

      That quote from the BNP website just shows what kind of trash Griffin is. You would imagine that this scumbag, whose hatred of Jews must exceed his hatred of Muslims. You would think with his classic National Socialist hatreds and holocaust denial he would find common cause with Abu Hamza and other ghouls, but it seems that hatred just seethes and takes any form and outlet that it can.

    29. Jay Singh — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:26 am  

      I cannot remember where I read it now but there was an article which laid out how Muslims are actually protected by current legislation under incitement to hatred laws and why the forthcoming religious hatred laws are unneccessary. After 9/11 a man was convicted in London of inciting hatred when he put out a leaflet or poster saying ‘Muslims are scum they are coming to kill us all etc etc etc’

    30. Rohin — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:44 am  

      With the exception of jamal, I think we’re mostly in agreement here - freedom of speech is paramount. Nick Griffin didn’t say “go out and kill Muslims”, so one can’t argue his words directly led to violence against Muslims. He did say “Muslims are evil” though - which, while repugnant BNP-rhetoric, it shouldn’t be illegal. You see jamal, if he is convicted for criticising Islam, then the message is effectively given that it is illegal to question the faith.

      Seeing as this is a secular, non-Muslim country, I would never ever want a law saying I can’t criticise a religion. It’s the religious hatred bill all over again.

      Is it wrong to question passages of the Koran? You may think so, but the very reason large parts of the Church has reformed is because passages in the Bible have been open to scrutiny. Likewise with Hinduism, Judaism etc. Reform is central to any religion.

      I’m sure you’ll disagree jamal as you will not tolerate any criticism of Islam. But how about this:

      Nick Griffin is convicted for criticising religion. Tomorrow I establish a cult called ‘Rohinduism” which sole purpose is to insult Muslims and eat pies. Years pass, I win followers and then bang I’m granted the status of religion. Criticising my faith then becomes illegal.

      Silly example? Read what scientologists say about Islam. Do you want to set a precedent which forbids criticising religion when something like scientology exists?

    31. Siddharth — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:49 am  

      Nick Griffin is not simply an Islamophobe. I’ve heard him speak of Islam and he’s quite the ignoramus with a embarrasingly poor grasp of the facts. He’s using Islam to stir up anti-ethnic sentiment. It could just as well be gays, Jews, Hindustanis, West Indians, Eastern Europeans, Thai noodle chefs, Turkish whatever. His targets are interchangeable. He’s a white-supremacist not an Islamophobe, per se.

    32. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:04 am  

      Jay Singh and Old Pickler:
      I did not mention Islamic fundamentalism because this issue has already been given enough coverage in the mainstream media.
      The sins of Islamic fundamentals are out there in the open for everybody to see and the threat of Islamic fundamentalism is well understood by all sane people.
      I havnt been to UK since 7-7, so I dont know what level of Muslim bashing is going on in UK. In the US, the Muslim bashing has reached a level which is not healthy and its not getting the kind of coverage it needs.

    33. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:09 am  

      “I would say that at the moment the most menacing bigotry and hatred is being propounded by Islamists and fundamentalists because it has already begun to bear fruit in the corpses of the murdered by suicide-bombing in London”.

      So we now need to de-humanize all Muslims because of the suicide bombers/Islamic fundamentalism.
      I bring up Muslim bashing and you retort with ‘but muslims are worse’.
      Do you think its possible for you to condemn Muslim bashing without bringing up Islamic fundamentalism?

    34. Jay Singh — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:15 am  

      Al Mujahid

      Dont set up straw men. No, of course we dont need to ‘de-humanize all Muslims because of suicide bombers’ and that is not what I said or say. If you read my post carefully you will know that.

      Your comments about Muslim bashing reaching the pitch and intensity of 1930′s anti-semitism in Germany are wrong, at least in the context of the UK.

    35. El Cid — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:58 am  

      Is it just me, or does the timing of Griffin’s trial look suspiciously stage-managed to coincide with Hamza’s???

      “He spouts as much evil bile as Abu Hamza.”
      I think that’s questionable. It’s like comparing Mussolini to Hitler. If push comes to shove, you’d have to say Hamza (Hitler) is far worse, as Rohin’s blog clearly specifies.
      He’s a white supremacist, as defined by Sid, but he’s not charged with incitement to kill or terrorism charges.

      “systematic wipeout of thousands of innocent Jews.”
      Hmmm. You mean millions Kismet, six million in fact, ort are you making a political statement?

    36. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:19 pm  

      Jay,

      You stated “Your comments about Muslim bashing reaching the pitch and intensity of 1930’s anti-semitism in Germany are wrong, at least in the context of the UK”

      Maybe my statement was a little hyperbolic in the context of UK.

      Also “Dont set up straw men. No, of course we dont need to ‘de-humanize all Muslims because of suicide bombers’ and that is not what I said or say. If you read my post carefully you will know that”
      I did read your post in which you brought up the fact that the real de-humanizers are the Islamists, while ignoring the de-humanizing mission of the Muslim bashers. In fact you never explicity condemned or acknowledged Muslim bashing, but gave some platitudes about how Muslims should be given an opportunity to show that not all of them are Hamza Lite.

    37. El Cid — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:27 pm  

      Hamza LIGHT, if you don’t mind!

    38. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 12:50 pm  

      http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/lite :)

    39. Jay Singh — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:05 pm  

      Al Mujahid

      I never give platitudes. I’ve never seen you post here before so you wont know the rucks I’ve had with Muslim bashers and the black eyes and busted noses I gave them. Please, allow the accusations and word policing, all my comments stand.

    40. Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:30 pm  

      Jay Singh,
      I will stipulate that I am ignorant of your past comments on this website.
      Also I am not an Islamist or an apologist for the radicals.

    41. El Cid — on 18th January, 2006 at 1:56 pm  

      Editor: it looks like you’ve deleted a post (I wish I’d read it properly now). If so, you might want to do something similar with mine at #31, coz it doesn’t make sense anymore.

    42. Old Pickler — on 18th January, 2006 at 2:19 pm  

      (Nick Griffin) isusing Islam to stir up anti-ethnic sentiment. It could just as well be gays, Jews, Hindustanis, West Indians, Eastern Europeans, Thai noodle chefs, Turkish whatever. His targets are interchangeable. He’s a white-supremacist not an Islamophobe, per se.

      Siddharth, for the first time ever, I agree with you.

    43. TottenhamLad — on 18th January, 2006 at 2:28 pm  

      In Nick’s own words at Free Speech on Trial

      http://freespeechontrial.blogspot.com/

      Seems quite a genteel chap from the blog…

    44. Siddharth — on 18th January, 2006 at 2:41 pm  

      Siddharth, for the first time ever, I agree with you.

      for ever ever? for ever ever? ever ever?
      ever ever? ever ever? ever ever? ever ever?

      -outkast

    45. Sunny — on 18th January, 2006 at 3:59 pm  

      If Nick Griffin wants to criticise Islam as a religion, he should be allowed to, and that should be a debate if necessary played out…. though saying that I’ve had talks with the the kind Phil Edwards (BNP spokesman) who admitted that he wasn’t really interested in being set straight on his ideas on Islam.

      In that sense it is no exaggeration to say that Griffin is using Islam as a cover for stirring up general hatred. But I think its useful to have him around, and for that I wouldn’t lock him up.

      Griffin frequently espouses views that, while deplorable, mirror that of many on the respectable right-wing. So to compare them to Griffin is an embarassment to them too…. and its a way for us to show how the right has become so close to the BNP with many opinions. So I say keep him free and let him say what he wants!

    46. coruja — on 18th January, 2006 at 4:25 pm  

      Col Mustafa.

      Apropos of your recommendation of forced education, something very interesting came to mind.

      In a lot of media references to the leader of the BNP there still seems to be a general bemusement of the fact he’s “Cambridge educated’. What is interesting is the fact he attended a college of Cambridge (Peterhouse) that seems to be the intellectual hub of a particular brand of English Conservatism that gives succour to people like NG. You don’t have to look to far to see the connections between Roger Scrutton, the Sailsbury Review (remember the Honeyford Affair?), NG and a lot of the Tory press.

      Cambridge during the 80′s & 90′s had educated more Tory ministers (incl. Portillo and Howard) than Oxford which people more readily associate with conservatism. There is a group recognised as the ‘Peterhouse Right’, and it is this group of people who have ignited the current debate on Britishness and Multi-culturalism since the 70′s.

      I do believe it is something that needs to be debated fully but unfortunately it never seems to get any further than accusations of racism and proclamations of being swamped by other inferior cultures. I don’t think Britain will get very far in the years to come if it does not resolve this issue and the only way to do this is a re-appraisal and coming to terms with its modern history.

      There are many more immigrants to come, not just here but everywhere in Europe, fortunately these will mainly be non-coloured people from other poorer parts of Europe and with a recognisable/acceptable cultures/religion/language.

      It is really the blacker immigrants (and descendants of) that this debate revolves around - it now looks like the words Islam, Multi-cultural, Urban have all been allocated a colour.

      Behind all this bile and hate towards people like me, there is always the fear of change, of another culture actually being considered on equal terms, and worse, of the allowing some people the freedom of choice. NG is basically and in a crass way expounding what is being promoted daily through papers like the Daily Mail.

    47. The Complimenting Commenter — on 18th January, 2006 at 5:54 pm  

      I think the trials are very important in establishing speech in the future. Great job pointing out what is going on. Good post.

    48. jamal — on 18th January, 2006 at 7:42 pm  

      “With the exception of jamal, I think we’re mostly in agreement here - freedom of speech is paramount. Nick Griffin didn’t say “go out and kill Muslims”, so one can’t argue his words directly led to violence against Muslims. He did say “Muslims are evil” though - which, while repugnant BNP-rhetoric, it shouldn’t be illegal. You see jamal, if he is convicted for criticising Islam, then the message is effectively given that it is illegal to question the faith.”

      Yawn

      Did I recently read a post of here (possibly by Rohin) and comments by Rohin critising the MCB for calling homosexuality immoral?

      Now I read a post from Rohin saying that the BNP should be able to critisise Islam to as offensivly as it chooses.

      So what you are saying is Gays and the BNP are better then Muslims and should have more rights then Muslims.

      If the court case is based on the understanding that; “The prosecution allege that each of the six speeches … included words which were threatening, abusive and insulting towards, in particular, people of Asian ethnicity. Such words were used with the intention of stirring up racial hatred,” your article and rebuttal to my comments are therefore misconstrued and invalid.

    49. Soniyeh — on 18th January, 2006 at 9:35 pm  

      Whilst what he said was evidently bollocks, locking Griffin up would ultimately be counter - productive, make him a martyr etc, as others have said.
      Rather what we should be thinking about is how come people listen to people like him in the first place? The BNP and its ilk play on the fears of ordinary people until Asians and indeed foreigners in general become the ‘enemy’. We need more integration and mixing, so that whites can get to understand and respect Asians, and vice versa.

    50. Sunny — on 18th January, 2006 at 10:55 pm  

      Freedom of speech has to be absolute. Iqbal Sacranie can be criticised for cussing homosexuals, but he should not be jailed or be told to shut up over it. In the same way, people who criticise Islam based on biased knowledge can be criticised but not shut up. That is the way society should be.

      And well said Coruja, agree with that.

    51. Siddhartha — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:08 pm  

      Jamal, Rohin is absolutely right. He’s not defending the actions of the BNP either. Nick Griffin and his cronies should be allowed to say what they like, and its up to saner members of the public to hold them up for ridicule.

    52. Old Pickler — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:37 pm  

      Siddartha - is that really you? You’re talking sense!

    53. Col. Mustafa — on 18th January, 2006 at 11:49 pm  

      This is a very annoying issue; can’t lock up idiots like Hamza and Griffin due to obvious reasons; cant kill them for obvious reasons; can’t stand them up on a stage somewhere whilst pointing and laughing at everything they say.

      All the infedels must dieee; the jewsss are responsibleee.

      crowd bursts into laughter like hes some stand up comedian; HAHAHAHAHAHA

      your a funny bastard hamza someone shouts out.

      Hamza’s infuriated by this, SHUTUPP YOU INFIDEL

      I WILL BE IN HEAVEN PUNISHING YOU IN HELLLL JEWWW.

      Actually that could be quite good; have like a charity comedy event where all the notorious figures just basically do standup, maybe even double acts.

      Get Agshar and Nicky baby up there together in some sort of MC battle.

    54. Gareth — on 19th January, 2006 at 12:10 am  

      It would be good if he was convicted because it would shut him up for a while and the high profile conviction would alert the UK public to its fascist government.

      Two birds with one stone.

      The only trouble is if you tolerate Griffin going down then they could be coming for you next.

    55. Siddharth — on 19th January, 2006 at 12:15 am  

      Don’t worry OP, I’m sure we’ll find something to disagree on soon. But thanks for getting me hip to Theodore Dalrymple. He’s an enjoyable bastard to read.

    56. Col. Mustafa — on 19th January, 2006 at 12:37 am  

      “The only trouble is if you tolerate Griffin going down then they could be coming for you next.”

      Who?

      And its just you and Jamal that want him to go down in this thread.

      Just for added humour MEOWWWW.

    57. Mirax — on 19th January, 2006 at 8:17 am  

      In the US, the Muslim bashing has reached a level which is not healthy and its not getting the kind of coverage it needs.

      True. Further I notice on internet discussions that many rightwing Americans are almost giddy with fear when it comes to Islam/muslims.

    58. Rohin — on 19th January, 2006 at 2:14 pm  

      “So what you are saying is Gays and the BNP are better then Muslims and should have more rights then Muslims.”

      Not at all. In fact, I’m entirely consistent.

      Offensive criticism of gays AND Muslims is something to look down upon. But it should not be ILLEGAL to criticise either group, or anyone else.

      So no, I didn’t say anything near what you allege.

      Sid and OP being friendly? My stars!

    59. Marc — on 27th January, 2006 at 1:52 am  

      Nick Griffin is simply promoting his own ethnic race and highlighting the problems with mass immigration into the U.K. The fact lies thats the 7/7 bombers were Muslim, some born and breed in this country, yet filled with so much hatred against it. Every should be entitled to free speach, especially in their private clubs, meetings or residential premises. A lot of what the BNP promote are true stories and facts, sure they are presented in a way to support their cause, but they are still true. White people are the ONLY race that can be rascists in the U.K. It is O.K. for other groups to support their own ethinic background, but as some as a group of white people do that, they are rascists, Its a one way street! However, this problem is only making the BNP larger and stronger as more white peoiple get pissed off with the way they are treated in thier own country. Suprisingly the BNP have now got the backing of a lot of supporters within the U.S. These supporters are backing free speach and also fear what is happening in Britian might oine day happen there.

    60. Marc — on 27th January, 2006 at 2:00 am  

      When the IRA were planting bombs in England, the Irish were looked down upon, after the 7/7 bombings Muslims are now looked down upon, why, BECAUSE ALL THE BOMBERS were Muslim, just like 9/11. Thousands of innocent peopel have been killed by Muslim terroists, The BNP warned about it, and guess what, it happened on out home soil. I am white, and as far as i a mcomcerned i will vote for the party that sticks up for my righst and my backfround. I am not a rascist, but i will vote BNP next time around, as the Labor party has ran this country into the ground with all the asylum seekers they have allowed ionto our country; only to not accept our values and plant bombs in “Their” new home, BOLLOCKS TO YOU ALL!!!!

    61. Marc — on 27th January, 2006 at 2:01 am  

      When the IRA were planting bombs in England, the Irish were looked down upon, after the 7/7 bombings Muslims are now looked down upon, why, BECAUSE ALL THE BOMBERS were Muslim, just like 9/11. Thousands of innocent peopel have been killed by Muslim terroists, The BNP warned about it, and guess what, it happened on out home soil. I am white, and as far as i am comcerned, i will vote for the party that sticks up for my rights and my background. I am not a rascist, but i will vote BNP next time around, as the Labor party has ran this country into the ground with all the asylum seekers they have allowed into our country; only to not accept our values and plant bombs in “Their” new home, BOLLOCKS THEM YOU ALL!!!!

    62. IMRAN KHAN — on 28th January, 2006 at 4:23 pm  

      NICK GRIFFEN GUILTY AS CHARGED

    63. Preston — on 28th January, 2006 at 11:45 pm  

      We right wing bloggers delivered 2752 signatures to the British Consulate in Houston Texas.

      The petition of signatures were based on bogus charges brought against Mr. Griffin and his right to free speech.

      There were over 100 Royal Marines that signed the petition and at least 4 police departments.

      People from all overthe world signed and people of all walks of life signed.

      Simon Darby has been on a minor radio talk show and I think Mr. Griffen will be a a few radio talk shows that are major - 3 million listeners plus.

      We in America are becoming very aware of the tyranny that goes on in England.

      please visit http://www.thetruthisnodefense.com

    64. Preston — on 28th January, 2006 at 11:47 pm  

      Of last note - the 2752 signatures were collected in only 13 days!!! and the list grows by over 100 per day.

    65. hamas — on 31st January, 2006 at 11:31 am  

      Only the arrival of the Anti-Christ would have received more “shock and awe” publicity throughout the world media, but especially in the United States, than the free democratic election of Hamas, a legitimate Palestinian resistance movement to free their people from the bloody boot of Israel. From screaming headlines in every major newspaper, to dramatic leading stories on all newscasts, to politicians scrambling for a microphone to condemn the beginning of the end of Israel; to pundits, talking heads, “think tanks”, and government leaders—all with one pandering mission—Israel and the world is “facing a gathering and growing threat” from the birth of the only Arab democracy in the region under military occupation. Israel’s lie as the “only democracy” in the region has collapsed, long live a “Free Palestine.”

    66. hamas — on 31st January, 2006 at 11:33 am  

      Just thought i would add my 2p worth. Nick Griffins ancestors are jews..thats why he has a big problem with muslims and jews…just look at his nose,,its got jew written all over it..oh the only other reason i can thin why he is so anti semetic or islamicphobic is that he caught his mum giving a blow job to a jew whilst she was getting one from behind from a muslim..

    67. Jack Sprat — on 1st February, 2006 at 10:09 pm  

      I forgot to mention.

      Mr Griffins words are the truth.

      Mr Griffin is correct.

    68. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 9:54 am  

      In addition to the previous post by myself
      I also posted a list of true facts regarding
      multiculturalism and immigration in the UK and what the majority of UK citizens thoughts are on this subject,
      facts regarding the nature of the Islamic religion,
      facts about which countries have the worst
      examples of all forms of racism, bigotry and inhumanity
      and facts regarding which ethnic groups in the UK
      are more likely statisticly to commit crimes and racist crimes.

      The post was removed.

    69. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:07 am  

      At the school I used to go to we used to find
      pencil drawings posted on the wall.

      The artist had excellent skills.

      The pictures sometimes portrayed a group of
      white males on their knees with chains round their necks some of whom were being executed by
      Asian men. There were other drawings with various
      siituations depicted usually involving violence against
      white people commited by Asians.

      These pictures used to appear on the walls of a sixth
      form common room used by students taking A level
      courses in the UK.

      This was 30 years ago.

    70. Patrick — on 2nd February, 2006 at 9:15 pm  

      I don;t think BNPand NG really care about the British people or ‘white’ people in this country. He is using these angry people who feel they have been let down by their goverment ,to gain power. I think anyone who are educated enough and know enough about polictics can see that.

      we should live in harmony and peace, we should not look up to people like NG who promotes hatred and xenophobia .
      remember polictics is all about power, people are people at the end of the day. We all strive towards a better life, regardless of race .culture or religon.

      lets join hands and make this country the example all others should look up to. Learn from history , don;t repeat our mistakes in the past.

      cheers,

      A brit

    71. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 9:59 pm  

      It is apparent that any post stating facts regarding
      the need or reasons for immigration in the UK
      are not allowed on this page.

    72. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:21 pm  

      Should we bring back the death penalty for treason?

      I’ve viewed the secretly filmed videos
      of Mr Griffen and co and evrything he said is
      perfectly lawful.

      Obviously it’s virtually impossible for them to get a fair
      trial in the UK due to the amount of Brain Washing New Labour and co have carried out on the British people
      and the BBC’s attempts to concoct evidence against them.
      They should claim political asylum in Denmark.

      The reason for the trial is quite simple, they are stating the truth.

      I believe it’s time that we re-introduce the death sentence for treason and make a start on rounding up anyone who thinks its OK to ram multi-culturalism and extreme and irrational religions down the British peoples throats by lying to them with their wall to wall propaganda.

      These people are damaging the UK and putting the UK peoples in danger of loosing evrything they stand for for various reasons - either stupidity or greed on the part of the treasonists . They should be made to pay.

      Re-introduce the death sentence and put bullets through the heads of all those convicted and found guilty of treason.

      In addition, anyone found to have lied to parliament and the people in an effort to engage the UK in the Iraq invasion should also be tried for treason and if found guilty be put up against a red brick wall and shot.

      This would get rid of quite a few establishment figures all of whom who would have been shown to be worthless scum.

    73. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:34 pm  

      It is interresting is it not that the phrase “stating the truth
      is no defence” is used a lot by the BNP and others to describe the situation they face in this trial.

      In fact, the reason for the trial is not due to any chance that they may have incited racial hatred or anything like that.
      The real reason for the trial is that they are stating the truth.
      I see that there will be a retrial, the politicians involved are
      really asking for it aren’t they, do they actually consider
      the consequences of their actions.

      Either way, guilty or not guilty of the idiotic charges, they
      are driving large numbers of British citizens straight to the BNP - of that there is no doubt, there is a steady stream of people who are now prepared to accept all those BNP policies they are perhaps not comfortable with as they come to realise there isn’t much time left and they have no other options.

    74. Siddharth — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:37 pm  

      Yeah yeah, but is it true your wife can eat no lean?

    75. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:41 pm  

      Of course, if we do re-introduce the death penalty for treason one of the first in line for the dock will
      be Mr Blair. The UK Prime Minister.
      Under the new law and its penalty if the Prime minister were to be found guilty of treason in that he deliberately
      started an invasion of Iraq by misleading the British people and their parliamentary representatives then he must also face the death penalty. Would a firing squad be a suitable way to deal with Mr Blair?

    76. Siddharth — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:42 pm  

      why are you avoiding the question?

    77. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:42 pm  

      Yes it is entirely true.
      My wife can definately eat no lean and I
      can eat no fat.

    78. Siddharth — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:47 pm  

      But you do know Jack Horner is Asian, don’t you?

    79. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:52 pm  

      To sum up then,
      the trial was a bad move by those that thought it might be a good idea, a conviction would be even worse for those that thought a conviction would be a good idea.
      All things considered, the entire process regardless of the result will simply increase support for the BNP in the UK.
      Initiating a retrial will add fuel to the fire.

    80. Siddharth — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:53 pm  

      How come you hate Jack Horner? I mean little Jack Horner, who sat in a corner (shop)?

    81. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:53 pm  

      What, the chap who sat in the corner eating a pudding is Asian?

    82. Siddharth — on 2nd February, 2006 at 10:54 pm  

      Is it a race thing?

    83. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 11:01 pm  

      We can now look forward to a torrent of cartoons depicting various humourous situations involving certain deity.
      This will probably last for the next 10 years.

    84. El Cid — on 2nd February, 2006 at 11:12 pm  

      If you read this thread fully you’d see that most commentators agree with you on point #80, although we’re not as pleased about it as you sound.
      I think you’re deluded on point #74 mind. You clearly underestimate the British people.
      So what’s the manifesto then Jack? Or is Griffin gonna try and do a bit of a David Cameron for a few years first?

    85. Siddharth — on 2nd February, 2006 at 11:18 pm  

      I heard his wife was having it off with jack horner. she once said he wasn’t as little as they said he was.

    86. Jack Sprat — on 2nd February, 2006 at 11:39 pm  

      I show people the BNP site and describe their policies,
      they take a look, listen to me and start asking questions that always start with - “but I thought the BNP were etc etc”.

      Fuel on the fire.

    87. Jack Sprat — on 3rd February, 2006 at 8:48 am  

      Retrial of Mr Griffin and Co?

      The BBC were lying through their teeth again.

      They haven’t got a clue if there is to be a retrial.
      The BBC are behaving like a bunch of adolescents
      again. It would be nice to see a bit of proffesionalism
      from the BBC once in a while.

      The BBC news should restrict itself to simple facts.
      Dressing up opinion and wishful thinking as news is thoroughly repugnant - is the BBC a repugnant organisation - are there many BBC movers and shakers who would be guilty of treason and be sentenced to death if found guilty should the death penalty for treason be reintroduced due to their whole hearted support for the various political propaganda and lie machine departments they house.

    88. Jack Sprat — on 3rd February, 2006 at 3:15 pm  

      From item 32 we have -

      __________________________________________
      Nick Griffin is not simply an Islamophobe. I’ve heard him speak of Islam and he’s quite the ignoramus with a embarrasingly poor grasp of the facts. He’s using Islam to stir up anti-ethnic sentiment. It could just as well be gays, Jews, Hindustanis, West Indians, Eastern Europeans, Thai noodle chefs, Turkish whatever. His targets are interchangeable. He’s a white-supremacist not an Islamophobe, per se.
      _________________________________________

      This is of course entirely unsupportable.
      Mr Griffin has a better grasp of the facts about the issues he talks about than most.
      Mr Griffin is very well educated.
      Mr Griffin is discussing the facts regarding the problems of the imposition of Islamic culture on the UK.
      Mr Griffin does not lump any of the groups mentioned together under the same broad heading of ‘groups to be disliked’.
      Mr Griffin has no targets that are interchangeable.
      Mr Griffin is not a white supremecist and clearly recognises that broadly speaking other racial groups of peoples exhibit some specific faculties that are superior in some respects to say the average white British type of individuals equivalent faculties.

      Broadly speaking, the BNP will actually initiate policies
      that are the opposite of those that a white supremicist, right wing, extremist political party would execute.
      The UK under the BNP would be less demanding,
      more self sufficient and would interfere much less in global politics and commerce and would be keen to ensure that other countries and nations would have less to fear and more to gain by trading with the UK.

      If a retrial is initiated by the treasonous scum then
      the scenario described is more likely to occur.

    89. Guy — on 5th February, 2006 at 9:18 pm  

      Actually, however naiively presented, most of it is supportable.

      Mr Griffin does not “have a better grasp of most of the issues he talks about than most”. In fact, for a man who spends his whole life doing pretty much nothing else, his grasp is remarkably poor.

      Mr Griffin is not “very well educated”. Let’s put this ludicrous lie to bed. A third-class degree is not “very well-educated”. It proves no more than that your parents were rich enough to get you into Cambridge, whereupon you arsed about for three years doing three-fifths of bugger all. In fact, given his privileged background and indpendent school education, a third class degree from Cambridge in a subject which might politely be described as “tangential” is just about the worst education one might expect. That he just about avoided being kicked out, is the best that can be said.

      Mr Griffin seldom (I use the word generously, in my experience “never” would be closer to accurate) discusses any facts at all, those relating to the problems of the imposition of Islamic culture on the UK or otherwise. Indeed, to accuse Mr Griffin of dealing in facts would be an insult to the man: his genius lies in exploiting emotional fears, prejudice and inherent xenophobia. For Mr Griffin, facts are merely an inconvenience to be twisted or disregarded.

      Mr Griffin habitually lumps groups together, as a matter of course. Read the BNP website (I recognise that my assumption that - as its chairman - he subscribes to it, may be a bit of a stretch given than he can argue that black is white, no pun intended). But read it, any of it, in particular “policies”. Anyone not a “native British” is lumped together in all statements.

      It’s arguable whether Mr Griffin is, absolutely, a white supremacist. Again, refer to the BNP website. However, it does appear that anyone in Britain not descended from “Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Norse” is at best unwelcome.

      I think the use of the expression “treasonous scum” says more than any of your so-called “arguments”.

      All of which said - should we silence him? Absolutely not. We don’t need to. His beliefs, “arguments” and policies are always better undermined by reasoned argument than by appeal to governmental or direct judicial intervention.

    90. Jack Sprat — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:34 pm  

      Actually, none of it is supportable, even remotely.
      Mr Griffin’s grasp of the facts for determining the
      level of idiocy of the UK’s immigration and eurostate policies over the last 50 years is virtually 100% relevant.

      Being well educated for the political work Mr Griffin undertakes does not need any degreee from any university.
      In fact, wasting time fulfilling the requirments of
      a first class honours degree from a British universty
      would most certainly get in the way.

      Mr Griffin deals exclusively in facts.
      His genius lies in using, seeing and conveying the truth
      to all those who have had trouble with brainwashing
      by media and interrested parties for a long time.
      The BNP is not Xenophobic at all, the BNP will put an end to racism in the UK.
      The fit and intelligient young white male British citizen who was refused a fire service post in the West Midlands simply because he was white and male and who obtained undisclosed damages from the fire service after taking legal action against the fire service would not have to face racism and sexism in a Britain under the BNP. It is not Xenophobic to find that young white males British citizens plight rather sickening.

      For Mr Griffin facts are used as is, it is the various
      agencies who promote multiculturalism etc as
      necessary and beneficial who twist, manipulate and disregard facts for the purpose of lying to the public
      in order to further their aims.

      There are many examples on the BNP website
      that indicate that Mr Griffin does not lump all
      people into one target group. Please see the BNP website for examples.

      All are welcome in the UK according to the BNP
      with certain qualifications. These qualifications are entirely reasonable and mostly amount to common sense. Many of the restrictions are purely due to
      obvious economic and environmental limitations.

      The expression ‘treasonous scum’ is simply a reference to any individual who for their own very selfish reasons- either financial or ideological -have done a great deal of damage to the general ethos and way of life of the UK and it’s peoples.

      If someone is treasonous in their behaviour then I and many others find them to be repugnant.

      The policies and arguments of the agencies that promote multiculturalism and large scale immigration regardless of need or consequencies are always better undermined by reasoned argument and relevant facts. This is what Mr Griffen and the BNP are doing.

      .

    91. Sunny — on 9th February, 2006 at 12:42 pm  

      Jack - shut up man. You’re annoying me now.

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