» RT @davidokeefe: @pickledpolitics By Monty's logic we should cut the police/defence budget because they back the Tories 13 hrs ago

» Well spotted (@afuahirsch) RT @MTPT: Curiously, Fox News Syndrome seems to afflict the @Guardian too: http://bit.ly/52jEtM 13 hrs ago

» Excellent! Daniel Hannan's complaint against Daily Mirror on Obama rejected by PCC http://bit.ly/8WDwjo 13 hrs ago

» Fox News syndrome RT @afuahirsch: Why has Times described desperate Haitians trying to survive as "looters"? http://tr.im/Kusx 14 hrs ago

» Reds under the bed! RT @simonk133 ConHome: voluntary sector workers back Labour, so let's cut their funding http://tinyurl.com/ya4wvy7 14 hrs ago

More updates...


  • Family

    • Ala Abbas
    • Clairwil
    • Leon Green
    • Liberal Conspiracy
    • Sonia Afroz
  • Comrades

    • Andy Worthington
    • Angela Saini
    • Bartholomew’s notes
    • Bleeding Heart Show
    • Bloggerheads
    • Blood & Treasure
    • Butterflies & Wheels
    • Campaign against Honour Killings
    • Cath Elliott
    • Chicken Yoghurt
    • Daily Mail Watch
    • Dave Hill
    • Dr. Mitu Khurana
    • Europhobia
    • Faith in Society
    • Feministing
    • Harry’s Place
    • Highlighting HBV
    • IKWRO
    • Indigo Jo
    • Liberal England
    • MediaWatchWatch
    • Ministry of Truth
    • Natalie Bennett
    • New Statesman blogs
    • Operation Black Vote
    • Our Kingdom
    • Robert Sharp
    • Rupa Huq
    • Septicisle
    • Shiraz Socialist
    • Shuggy’s Blog
    • Stumbling and Mumbling
    • Ta-Nehisi Coates
    • The F Word
    • Though Cowards Flinch
    • Tory Troll
    • UK Polling Report
    • Women Uncovered
  • In-laws

    • Aaron Heath
    • Ariane Sherine
    • Desi Pundit
    • Douglas Clark's saloon
    • Get There Steppin’
    • Incurable Hippie
    • Isheeta
    • Neha Viswanathan
    • Power of Choice
    • Route 79
    • Sarah
    • Sepia Mutiny
    • Smalltown Scribbles
    • Sonia Faleiro
    • The Langar Hall
    • Turban Head
    • Ultrabrown



  • Technorati: graph / links

    Who still uses the word ‘chinky’?


    by Sunny on 13th October, 2008 at 5:53 PM    

    Apparently, blogger Paul Staines does. What the hell is this the 1970s? What next? Negroids? Pakis? Maybe Guido Fawkes should spend less time trying to rhyme words and more time erasing the homophobia and other bigotry that infects his blog. via Tim Ireland.


         
            Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: Blog, Race politics






    155 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs


    1. PaulStanedUndies — on 13th October, 2008 at 5:58 PM  

      indeed. Guido is a muppet. I wonder if he is still short the FTSE, hope so as of this morning.

      They are all over the place distraught that brown is achieving something, and on the world stage no less. There is a blog entry over at the torygraph outlining how amazing the coverage of brown in the european press has been in the last few days. THEY HATE IT

    2. David — on 13th October, 2008 at 6:08 PM  

      Too many drinkys will damage his kidneys.

      He should spend less time drinking before tackling the homophobia and racism on his blog.

    3. Sid — on 13th October, 2008 at 6:18 PM  

      it is a chinky in his armoury.

    4. David — on 13th October, 2008 at 6:30 PM  

      Is #3 your Ron Atkinson moment, Sid?

    5. Billy — on 13th October, 2008 at 6:33 PM  

      Sarah Silverman?

    6. El Cid — on 13th October, 2008 at 9:22 PM  

      i use the word chinky to describe a chinese takeaway.
      As in “Fancy a chinky tonight darling?”
      if you can overlook the lame but tempting Carry On-type insinuation, is that so wrong?
      If enough of you think that it is, then I will stop.
      But it strikes me as a harmless reference to food. I would frown on anyone who used it to describe a person, people, or country.

    7. Ravi Naik — on 13th October, 2008 at 10:17 PM  

      What the hell is this the 1970s? What next? Negroids? Pakis?

      You confuse “chink” with “chinky”. According to the race elders who defined the names that are supposed to deeply traumatise us if they are uttered, “chink” is a derogatory name for Chinese people. On the other hand, “chinky” is chinese takeway. And as far as I know, it is not meant be a racist term. So, in the context of “chinese milk”, the term “chinky” does not have the same connotation as using terms like nigger or paki.

    8. Katy Newton — on 13th October, 2008 at 10:33 PM  

      When I was a kid and I used to stay in Liverpool, my cousin told me that he and his friends called the newsagent the Paki shop. He insisted that that was not racist.

      Personally, I think terms like “chinky” and “Paki” are always racist. I certainly don’t think that El Cid or Ravi are racist, at all - but I think that some terms are offensive regardless of the intention of the speaker.

    9. Katy Newton — on 13th October, 2008 at 10:34 PM  

      Of course, this is the same cousin who told me that the woman next door was very mean and stingy, and added “She’s what we call a Jew”. ;-)

    10. Katy Newton — on 13th October, 2008 at 10:40 PM  

      (said cousin is not from the Jewish side of the family)

    11. Ravi Naik — on 13th October, 2008 at 11:39 PM  

      Personally, I think terms like “chinky” and “Paki” are always racist… but I think that some terms are offensive regardless of the intention of the speaker.

      I disagree. The value of a particular slang is worth as much as what the majority of people agree upon. Pretty much like stock or currency. The term “paki” is derogatory because Asians and Whites decided it was supposed to be the worst thing you could call an Asian.
      On the other hand, the term “Indoo” has zero worth on the scale of being derogatory to a South Asian, even though both words derive from the names of the regions where we stem from.

      This means that derogatory terms can be temporary and sometimes part of one generation and region, and depend on the context and who says it. Surely, those Blacks that call other Blacks “niggers”, or South Asians calling themselves “Pakis” are not self-loathing BNP sympathisers.

      I admit that I’ve heard the term “chinky” in India to refer to Chinese people, and it bothered me because it feels boorish and disrespectful. In this country, I have always heard it in the context of takeaway, and to be honest, it is a bit hard … er.. to swallow that is racist when the target is food.

    12. John Lilburne — on 13th October, 2008 at 11:51 PM  

      Terms like Paki and Chinky originated as racist epithets but, like many words, the meaning has evolved. When I lived in the Britain I used the same words not as insults but affectionate short forms, ie “the Paki” is quicker to say than “the shop that is open when you need something at 10pm on Christmas night and has the friendly owner that knows all your family’s names and always says hello with a smile as opposed to the miserable white girls at Tesco that couldn’t give a shit about you”.

      Here in Aus the most frequent racist term you will hear is “Pom”, the abbreviated version of “whingeing Pommie bastard” or Englishman. One of the biggest breakfast TV programmes broadcast a piece last week entitled “100 ways to annoy a Pom”. I can’t imagine them doing a similar item about arrogant Germans, thick Irish, mean Jews, murdering Muslims or any other horribly inaccurate racial stereotype.

      Of course, if any Pom was to complain it would just reinforce the whingeing stereotype so we just keep quiet. Many Poms here use it in the same way as black kids calling each other nigger - ironic self-awareness.

    13. Refresh — on 13th October, 2008 at 11:54 PM  

      ‘(said cousin is not from the Jewish side of the family)’

      Katy, I did wonder.

      Yes, its racist.

      Ravi, El Cid

      I am astonished you don’t see it that way. I could forgive you if you were an octogenarian (unless of course you are).

    14. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:06 AM  

      John

      ‘murdering Muslims’ seems to have replaced ‘dirty little arab’.

      And

      ‘miserable white girls at Tesco that couldn’t give a shit about you’

      what have you got against our army of checkout girls who in a typical working day would have to deal with a hundred frazzled shoppers? I’ve yet to come across a checkout ‘girl’ who has been miserable. I tend to engage with whoever is serving.

    15. John Lilburne — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:31 AM  

      @ Refresh

      I once did a summer holiday job at Tesco so I can appreciate why they are miserable. I would have been the same if I was in a so-called customer-facing position. I’m not blaming them for their attitudes, I’m just saying that many are understandably beyond caring.

    16. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:39 AM  

      Is #3 your Ron Atkinson moment, Sid?

      Like Sarah Silverman, I was parodying the racist thought process. Or maybe I was having a Martin Amis moment, who can tell?

      There is a definite urge; don’t you have it? The chinky community will have to suffer until it gets its house in order. Not letting them travel. Deportation; further down the road. Curtailing of freedoms. Strip-searching people who look like they’re from mainland China or Singapore. Discriminatory stuff, until it hurts the whole community and they start getting tough with their children.
      ;-)

    17. Tim Ireland — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:49 AM  

      Carry on into the comments at Staines’ site and ‘chink’ is used quite clearly, neatly tying in with a dash of textbook homophobia (see: Oaten)…
      http://tinyurl.com/47gtqj

      “I hope the Chinks didn’t let Barren Mandelsboy near any of the children”

      Not a peep from Staines. Not so much as a friendly step toward a gentle warning of moderation. And this is not a man who hesitates over the ‘delete’ button.

    18. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:02 AM  

      I think self-loathing-Staines is probably one of those unfortunate people who not only went through their teenage years with that familiar impulse of being embarrassed by their parents, but is now going through an adulthood with that (not so familiar) impulse of being embarrassed by their parents because, in his case one of them happens to be a paki. No wonder he has found rehabilitation in the Conservative party.

    19. Justin — on 14th October, 2008 at 8:54 AM  

      Come on Sunny, what did you expect? We’re talking about a guy who cheers the vigilante murder of paedophiles when their name sounds a bit like the Prime Minister’s…

    20. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 9:58 AM  

      I’m still unconvinced.
      Your experiences Katy are different to mine, so what you say doesn’t chime.
      As for Refresh….. you have the certainty of a white liberal dogmatist, which I both mistrust and find irrevelent. Sorry.
      Any more?

    21. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:22 AM  

      El Cid, I quite like going to the dagos for a take-away but I think the wop’s are better value for money.

      Sorry, was that racist?

    22. BenSix — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:24 AM  

      There is a definite urge; don’t you have it? The chinky community will have to suffer until it gets its house in order. Not letting them travel. Deportation; further down the road. Curtailing of freedoms. Strip-searching people who look like they’re from mainland China or Singapore. Discriminatory stuff, until it hurts the whole community and they start getting tough with their children.

      Ah, but you don’t actually want that, you’re just enjoying a mild spot of adumbration.

    23. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:29 AM  

      Now Sid,
      that’s just gratuitous, provocative and a crap argument.
      The takeaway food is the chinky not the takeaway shop.
      I wouldn’t say I’m going to the chinky’s, now would I?
      Still unconvinced.

    24. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:34 AM  

      Is it? I could very easily say that the use of dago and wop was limited to food only.

    25. billericaydicky — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:39 AM  

      Where do Bangladeshis calling black people bandoor manoosh and Jamaicans calling Asians cooly man fit into this? I think thereis also a racist element to Ghora Lhok.

    26. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:49 AM  

      BexSix, yeah man.

      billericaydeshi - “ghora lok” means white man, not really racist in itself, but in context, anything goes. I don’t know, but I don’t think a suitably racist, universally accepted term for white people has yet entered currency.

      Perhaps we should ask the Chinese for that. ;-)

    27. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:06 AM  

      Sid: you’re rubbish.
      Maybe you should let someone with better arguments persuade me.

    28. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:17 AM  

      Personally, I think terms like “chinky” and “Paki” are always racist.

      Agreed. And it’s not rocket science; the word “chinky” is derived from “chink”, which is a derogatory word for Chinese people. Of course it’s bloody racist. And I’ve wondered if some of the people who casually use the word “chinky” — knowing full well how it originates — also use the word “going for a paki” behind our backs when referring to Indian restaurants. At least in the cases of those who “love the food, despise the people it originates from”.

      (No I’m not referring to El Cid, who is absolutely not racist, although he could benefit from slightly more sensitivity towards Asians in this matter. Considering the colonial history involved, the “status” of Asians in Britain — and the attitudes the local rednecks have towards us — has some overlap with the way black people are viewed and treated by rednecks in the US. It’s worth remembering this, because it explains why these things touch such a nerve).

      El Cid, I quite like going to the dagos for a take-away but I think the wop’s are better value for money.

      Sorry, was that racist?

      …..Is it? I could very easily say that the use of dago and wop was limited to food only.

      Spot-on argument by Sid.

      It obviously wouldn’t be deemed acceptable or non-racist for an Asian person to say he’s “going for a gora pahenchchod” or a “saala angrezi” the next time he visits the pub, for example.

      Ahem.

    29. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:18 AM  

      El Cid, who said I was trying to persuade you.

      But your only defence is that when the term chinky or paki is used for food, it is inoffensive.

      “Fancy a chinky tonight, darling” is fine

      But “Fancy a dago tonight, darling” is not.

      What are your parameters?

      I accept “chinky” can be used affectionately. But is “dago” always offensive?

    30. Rumbold — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:19 AM  

      Wikipedia seems to support El Cid:

      “In the United Kingdom, a chinky (sometimes known as a chinky chonky or chinkmaster) is a slang term for Chinese takeaway restaurant, or the meal that one buys from such a restaurant. The name “chinkies” is the plural and adjectival form of chink, and like chink was originally an ethnic slur for Chinese and other oriental people.

      The Broadcasting Standards Commission held in 2002, after a complaint about the BBC One programme The Vicar of Dibley, that when used as the name of a type of restaurant or meal, rather than as an adjective applied to a person or group of people, the word carries no racist connotation, and given that the program is shown on BBC1 is thus representative of the views of the majority of the population.[3] However, a year earlier the Commission’s counterpart, the Radio Authority, apologised for the offence caused by an incident where a DJ on Heart 106.2 used the term. Ofcom, the successor organisation of the two, classifies it as a derivative of the racist term “chink”, but notes that the degree to which the term is deemed offensive varies according to age or ethnic origin of the listener.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinky

      However, if I heard that term from anyone under a certain age I would assume that they were using racist language (though were not necessarily racist per se).

    31. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:20 AM  

      What you mean “paki”?
      You guys make me laugh sometimes.

    32. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:25 AM  

      This argument could be solved by simply asking some Chinese people if they feel offended/think it is racist for non-Chinese people to use the term “Chinky” when referring to their food.

      Problem solved.

    33. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:28 AM  

      What would a bunch of stanis know?

    34. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:49 AM  

      ‘but notes that the degree to which the term is deemed offensive varies according to age or ethnic origin of the listener.’

      Octogenarians!

      Jai,

      That is my rule of thumb, if the Chinese would find it offensive, then it is. Add to that, historical intent with which it has been used.

      Origin: a racial slur.

    35. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:51 AM  

      Salivating Sid,
      Stop whining. I never once used the word “paki” but, blinded by Pavlovian victimhood, you failed to spot that. We need to take the emotion out of these things, otherwise we’re just shouting at each other and none the wiser.

      Jai,
      You too, though to a lesser extent. Your last point is probably spot on. I say probably only because one Chinese person doesn’t necessarily represent 1.5 billion. I also suspect that the Chinese restaurant owner and his employees would be happy as long as it translates into orders.
      But “going for a gora pahenchchod”?
      Isn’t there a bit of an Xtra insult going on there? How does that translate — white something fucker?
      Are you comparing apples with apples.
      C’mon! Where’s the logic?

      I hear what you are saying re cultural sensitivity, but on the other hand, you also need to get over yourselves a bit. How are we going to progress if we don’t all adjust?

      Finally, this isn’t directly relevant to the post but I thought I’d say it anyway:
      Hak Gwai/Ha yin is what some Chinese people call a black person, Bak Gwai for white, and ah cha denotes an Indian.
      I don’t know what they might call a menu consisting of Steak n Kidney pie, Fish n Chips, and Lancashire Hot Pot, or for that matter Paella, Sardinas, and Gambas al Ajillo.

    36. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:57 AM  

      ‘I also suspect that the Chinese restaurant owner and his employees would be happy as long as it translates into orders.’

      Not a great relationship to have with your local takeaway.

    37. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:00 PM  

      Refresh, it’s just an observation that the Chinese are very matter-of-fact, very smart, very business-like people. Perspective mate, perspective

    38. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:00 PM  

      “Who stil. uses…”

      Apparently lots of people on this site.

      Progressive? Eer. NO. racist? Er, definately

    39. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:00 PM  

      I know of a takeaway owner (Chinese) who ended up closing down because of all the abuse he and his staff would get from his clients. This was in a genteel part of a genteel city.

    40. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:02 PM  

      What, from people like me?

    41. Rumbold — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:09 PM  

      Are words offensive because a particular group finds them offensive? It shouldn’t be the case, but it probably is. ‘Paki’ should be no more offensive then ‘Brit’, both being shortened forms of a nationality, but the way in which ‘Paki’ has been used down the years has turned it into an insult.

      The same is true for ‘chinky’ I would say. While El Cid clearly uses it in a non-racist way, plenty of people hearing it will think that it has racial connotations. And while Chinese people might look the other way so as not to insult customers, that is hardly a good reason for using it. Rather insulting in fact; people having to stand being insulted for the sake of money. Very unedifying.

    42. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:09 PM  

      No no El Cid, not from people like you. The only reason things have progressed in the UK is because of zero tolerance of such terminology, others call it political correctness. I see it as respect. We all have a part to play.

    43. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:18 PM  

      OK, Rumbold, I take your last point.
      But at the end of the day, I didn’t mean that a person should turn the other cheek for the sake of money. I’m just putting forward a hypothetical situation whereby a successful Chinese restaurant owner just happened to stumble upon the fact that on occasion his customers might use the term chinky when considering what to eat that night. What would he/she say/think? That’s all
      I repeat: I have never once suggested one should use the term to describe a person, not even a restaurant.

      There is a bigger issue here — and I direct this squarely at Halima, Sid, and Refresh — if you think you are doing the cause of race relations any favours by refusing to try to engage and persuade, you’re sadly mistaken. You are also part of the problem.

    44. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:22 PM  

      ‘I also suspect that the Chinese restaurant owner and his employees would be happy as long as it translates into orders.’

      Not a great relationship to have with your local takeaway.

      Agreed. It’s a bit like saying the owners of your local Asian shop/restaurant/pharmacy/whatever wouldn’t have a problem with anyone referring to them as “the Paki shop” etc as long as it translates into orders. I can assure you that this is definitely not the case.

      Many of the older generation may have had a “keep your head down and bear it” attitude to such things, but the UK-born younger crowd don’t. Repeated, casual racism, both subtle and overt, often deflected or excused disingenously, and experienced by themselves and their nearest & dearest over a lifetime, is one of the major reasons why younger Asians can be so aggressive and adopt “gangsta” stereotypes in their mentality. There’s a direct causal relationship. People are absolutely sick of being on the receiving end of all this, especially as this crap has been going on for centuries.

      If shops and restaurants owned by West Africans or people from the Caribbean were similarly widespread over the UK, I wonder if people would refer to them as “the n*gger shop” or (in the case of food) “going for a n*gger”, and then either claim that the term in this case is not actually racist or offensive or that the owners of the estabishment concerned should be less sensitive and “adjust”.

      Isn’t there a bit of an Xtra insult going on there? How does that translate — white something fucker?
      Are you comparing apples with apples.
      C’mon! Where’s the logic?

      No, I was making a rhetorical point and “turning the tables”, as the same logic and arguments would apply if Asians started casually using racially-derived epithets to refer to white-owned establishments and English food.

      How are we going to progress if we don’t all adjust?

      Correct. But the simple solution is that those amongst the white majority who think it’s acceptable or excusable to use terms derived from racially-offensive epithets should simply desist from using those terms. Again, problem solved.

      Hak Gwai/Ha yin is what some Chinese people call a black person, Bak Gwai for white, and ah cha denotes an Indian.
      I don’t know what they might call a menu consisting of Steak n Kidney pie, Fish n Chips, and Lancashire Hot Pot, or for that matter Paella, Sardinas, and Gambas al Ajillo.

      Given the way the economy is going and the probable shift in geopolitical power this century, I suspect that we’ll all find out at some point ;)

    45. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:23 PM  

      El Cid,

      Speaking for myself, I do believe you have been persuaded, without me insulting you or questioning your ethics. Which, by the way, I believe to be sound.

    46. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:29 PM  

      Jai, I really don’t buy your arguments.
      The comparisons do not bear scrutiny.
      I never use the term to decribe an establishment and you are ignoring the fact that rather than turning the tables you are actually upping the ante.

    47. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:34 PM  

      Refresh, it’s just an observation that the Chinese are very matter-of-fact, very smart, very business-like people.

      Yes they are, but it doesn’t mean they’re not simultaneously slagging off any rednecks they meet when discussing the latter amongst themselves.

      I’m just putting forward a hypothetical situation whereby a successful Chinese restaurant owner just happened to stumble upon the fact that on occasion his customers might use the term chinky when considering what to eat that night. What would he/she say/think?

      He/she would probably think “What a bunch of arrogant, ignorant assholes”.

      Just because Chinese people don’t always “react” when faced with a situation they deem racially discriminatory, it doesn’t mean they don’t get pissed off about this sort of thing (especially the younger contingent); it just means they tend to be less hot-headed than Asians are in relation to how they deal with it.

      Then again, maybe the situation would be different if they were here in large enough numbers to be the second-biggest British population, instead of Asians. In any situation in life, people can be more willing to speak up and “fight back” if they’re not isolated and there are others from the same background present who will forcefully back them up.

    48. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:38 PM  

      So you say Jai.

    49. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:42 PM  

      I never use the term to decribe an establishment

      I know you don’t, El Cid; I’m speaking generally. That part of my argument wasn’t directed specifically at you.

      However, I do think it’s still worth bearing in mind why this entire topic “sets people off”. It’s a really, really sensitive thing, both for historical reasons and because of the various forms of racism we Asians still often have to deal with in our everyday lives.

      Although I understand your point and sympathise with your logic, in reality it’s not possible to “take the emotion out of it” because the whole issue in itself is so emotionally-loaded and triggers deeply-rooted feelings and anger in those individuals and groups who have been the targets of all this crap for such a long time.

    50. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:44 PM  

      Anyway, thanks for trying to engage with me

    51. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:49 PM  

      I am not angry. Just sensitive to it.

    52. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:50 PM  

      When I first joined the world of work, all the new recruits (and there were quite a few of us) went through a training program which including presentation and interpersonal skills. I recall a particular role-play exercise where we would have to persuade other teams to join you on a hypothetical journey.

      In attempting to persuade others to join us on a trip to Martinique, the ‘best’ argument put up by a nominated spokesperson of another team against it was - he wouldn’t go to no ‘oily-spic island’. I was left speechless, and the room in an embarrassed silence.

      And this was for a multinational. Don’t recall ever noticing that guy again, not sure but I may have just tuned him out.

      I am sure there were plenty in the room wondering what he may have thought of them.

    53. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 12:57 PM  

      Don’t forget, though, Refresh that if there was a competition for PP’s Obelix (i.e. the commentator most immersed from birth in the cauldron of multinational Britain), my odds would be very short.

    54. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:07 PM  

      Anyway, thanks for trying to engage with me

      No problem El Cid. And I do still think your articles and comments about the current financial crisis are excellent, by the way. You and Kulvinder have both done an absolutely superb job of explaining the situation. Well done.

      Regarding this thread and Asian reactions to actual/perceived racism, just remember what I said about the parallels (in some ways) between the history of Asians and white Brits and the history of black Americans and white Americans, the colonial dynamics involved in both, and the modern-day legacies of those events resulting in automatic assumptions of inherent superiority amongst rednecks in both countries towards those deemed historically “conquered”, whether we’re talking about the school dropout in Romford Market or the more sophisticated educated type.

      It’s a really, really serious thing and involves Asians frequently being on the receiving end of quite vicious and insidious attitudes and behaviour. Don’t underestimate how nasty it is for people to have spend their lives dealing with this bullshit (even if it’s frequently from a small-but-disproportinately vociferous and domineering unashamedly-racist minority), regardless of their own efforts and regardless of how “nice” and well-meaning they may be themselves towards white people in general.

      Because of all this, Asians can become extremely touchy about this topic (as you’ve seen here on PP, today and in the past), regardless of whether we’re talking about “paki shops”, people seriously or jokingly bobbing their heads about and doing “bud-bud” accents, Bernard Manning, Jim Dividson, or any of the other myriad expressions of bigotry we have to deal with. This doesn’t mean your own points don’t have any merit, but it just means it’s a good idea to look at things from the other side and try to grasp the historical dynamics behind why people can “flare up” so much.

    55. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:08 PM  

      El Cid

      I am sure you are right.

      I found this very informative - very revealing, probably deserves post of its own. It would be great to chart how these change over time:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur#A

    56. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:32 PM  

      “There is a bigger issue here — and I direct this squarely at Halima”

      I didn’t say I won’t engage. I’m questioning this site’s engagement with it.

      If we want to go Big Brother style, shall we go?

      Where do you want to start?

      Whether Jade Goody was racist to call Shilpa a Paki or not?

      I personally find it boring, but you mentioned the cause whatever the cause is …

      Refresh

      ‘Asians’ seem touchy about this…”

      Actually most anti-racist folks should feel touchy about this.

    57. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:39 PM  

      Jai/Refresh

      You make some good points , and very well made. I wonder, though, after eons of years we still debate whether Paki or Nigger is offensive .. I mean, if folks need awareness raising, they should go out a bit more.

      I’m not touchy , just curious that people can be fairly constructive and open minded on some issues and not others - the most basic of them all - which is treat fellow human beings with respect. El Cid - this isn’t directed at you, but I am always shocked, and admit, perhaps I ought to go a bit more in Bermondsey in London.

    58. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:40 PM  

      Halima

      ‘Actually most anti-racist folks should feel touchy about this.’

      Agree wholeheartedly.

      You may be thinking of Jai.

      Good points on engagement.

    59. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:45 PM  

      This is a conversation (in full) that I have just had with a Chinese colleague at work, who is from Singapore. Purely fyi:

      El Cid: can i ask you a question about racial attitudes, just some debate im engaged in.
      Chinese colleague: sure
      Chinese colleague: as long as it’s not used against me in a court of law
      El Cid: you come from singapore, which is a mix of english, chinese, indian and malay right?
      Chinese colleague: ethnic mix of chinese, malay and india and “others” including eurasians, jews, arabs etc
      Chinese colleague: by english, i take it you don’t mean ethnic english people
      Chinese colleague: but in terms of official languages then we have 4
      Chinese colleague: English, Mandarin Chinese, Malay and Tamil
      El Cid: what level of casual racism do you get? i mean just words, ways in which people describe different races (whether directly or behind their backs)
      Chinese colleague: oh people use derogatory terms quite frequently and sometimes not behind each other’s back
      Chinese colleague: don’t forget it’s a small place
      Chinese colleague: we grow up close together - eat together, school and for the men, military service
      El Cid: how does it come across, do you get much PCness?
      Chinese colleague: i don’t think we’re too precious about these things
      Chinese colleague: well i certainly don’t use these terms
      Chinese colleague: but people of my parents’ generation do
      El Cid: what terms? give me some examples
      Chinese colleague: they are in various dialects
      Chinese colleague: either chinese dialects
      Chinese colleague: or in tamil (for the chinese)
      Chinese colleague: there are ridiculous silly un-PC terms too
      Chinese colleague: anyway why are you asking?
      Chinese colleague: oh we have stereotypes for each ethnic community of course
      El Cid: i’m just trying to work out whether someone describing a chinese take-away in britain as a having a “chinky” is offensive and trying to see whether there might be comparable chinese terms for indian or european food
      Chinese colleague: hmm
      Chinese colleague: well for instance, we have a lot of indian mum and pop shops
      Chinese colleague: “provisions” shops
      El Cid: the food remember, not the establishment, let alone a person
      Chinese colleague: small grocers that we would call “Mama shops”
      Chinese colleague: cos they were run by Indian tamils - “mama” means “uncle” in tamil
      Chinese colleague: so it’s not offensive per se
      Chinese colleague: although to refer to a random ethnic indian would be
      Chinese colleague: the punjabi term for brother is Bayi and you will hear people in singapore use that ever so casually but that can be construed as rude if you were using that in a more formal context!
      El Cid: so are you less exposed to casual comments from white people in singapore?
      Chinese colleague: so the bottomline is: yes we got rude names for each other but when it comes to food, we wouldnt necessarily use it as singapore food is quite fusion
      El Cid: of course!!
      Chinese colleague: they prolly wldnt say it in my face
      Chinese colleague: but it doesnt make sense to say you’d get a chinky in singapore since a) it’s so widespread and b) even the chinese food is not properly “chinese” but singaporean chinese
      El Cid: understood.
      Chinese colleague: chinky only makes sense here cos a chinese takeaway is not in the mainstream as opposed to a chippie
      El Cid: which leaves the question, if you heard in the UK someone say “do you fancy a chinky tonight” would you find it offensive?
      Chinese colleague: not really. i don’t find it offensive but then i’m used to being an ethnic majority
      Chinese colleague: my non-chinese singaporean friends occasionally complain abt racism in singapore but they wld be more sensitive
      El Cid: but you would if you were called a “chink” though, right? that’s different
      Chinese colleague: i suppose i’m more offended by the intent rather than the word
      El Cid: you mean the chinese tend to be more racist, albeit casually?
      El Cid: well, that’s key — the intent. though if it became too endemic it’s only natural that it would grate.
      Chinese colleague: no
      El Cid: less sensitive?
      Chinese colleague: i wouldnt say that - most extended chinese families would have non-chinese members by marriage these days
      Chinese colleague: because i grew up as in the majority ethnic group, being treated differently or seen to be standing out in a crowd is new to me
      El Cid: makes sense
      Chinese colleague: but i’d imagine if i grew up as a minority member, i would be more sensitive to taunts/epithets related to race
      El Cid: even if it was specifically related to food?
      Chinese colleague: perhaps
      Chinese colleague: but to me it’s all v stupid
      El Cid: tell me about it
      Chinese colleague: why?
      Chinese colleague: did someone get offended?
      El Cid: no, not at all. there’s a blog i go on where there was a debate about whether the word chinky was offensive. and i asked whether it was so wrong to refer to a chinese takeaway as a chinky. i should be working more but i am leaving after all
      El Cid: i got bombarded by a few participants
      Chinese colleague: haha anyway we think our food is great in singapore (which i agree) so you wldn’t even think to describe it as “chinky” which evokes the awful grease-pit-triad storefronts that masquerade as eateries in the UK!
      Chinese colleague: i think it’s all intent
      Chinese colleague: you dont see aussies get offended by aussie cos the context is always affectionate/playful
      Chinese colleague: but pakistanis get offended with pakis and chinese by chinky cos you know the intent is always to point out how different they are to us “white people”
      El Cid: can i post up this conversation (while stripping out the names)? it’s for the advancement of multi-racial undersytanding. it’s a good cause
      Chinese colleague: sure. i did get that once when i was living in italy. some punk walked towards me shotuing
      Chinese colleague: chinky-chong, konichiwa etc.
      El Cid: some wop?
      Chinese colleague: haha i shouted back in my most exaggerated Woppy accent
      Chinese colleague: Mama mia pasta fresca tutti frutti
      Chinese colleague: to give him a taste of his own medicine
      El Cid: ha ha
      Chinese colleague: height of stupidity but hey it was a good riposte
      El Cid: whatever works. sometimes you got to adjust tactics
      El Cid: anyway, i’ll let you work now
      Chinese colleague: sure
      Chinese colleague: happy debating
      El Cid: by the way, i have a terrible joke for you which K in Korea once told me.
      Chinese colleague: go on
      Chinese colleague: i am braced
      El Cid: Customer in Chinese restaurant: “Waiter! This chicken is rubbery!”
      El Cid: Waiter: “Why thank you sir”
      El Cid: that’s it
      Chinese colleague: man!
      El Cid: it’s terrible, i know

    60. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 1:55 PM  

      “This is a conversation (in full) that I have just had with a Chinese colleague at work, who is from Singapore. Purely fyi:”

      So?

      I haven’t read the transcript and on principle won’t because you’re not using your arguments, but doing the thing that odd people do when trying to plead that ‘they are not racist’ which I am not saying you are, but JUST pointing to this fact which many people find irrititating. I’m not racist I have black friends.
      .

      Moving on. Let’s try another analogy closer to home.

      Lots of working class folks refer to themselves as CHAVs which in lots of people’s book is quite offensive.

      Coz it’s an abbreviation of council house and violent.

      It’s not quite as offensive as Paki as CHAVs don’t get beaten up for being CHAVs, but you see the point about language.

    61. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:01 PM  

      Halima:
      I’m putting you in the rubbish pot too.
      If you bothered to read the transcript, it doesn’t necessarily clinch the argument either way.
      It’s not always about a zero-sum game.

    62. Tim Ireland — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:02 PM  

      Chav is the new black, dahling.

      For those who are currently debating the status of the word ‘chinky’, I’ve just posted a dozen instances where Staines has allowed/published the word ‘chink’ under comments so far this year:
      http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives/2008/10/paul_staines_vi.asp

    63. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:04 PM  

      Eld Cid

      “I’m putting you in the rubbish pot too”

      Before or after you’ve engaged with the cause?

    64. Rumbold — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:10 PM  

      Halima:

      El Cid’s conversation with his co-worker was not designed to show that some of his best friends are Chinese. Rather, it was an attempt to ascertain whether or not ‘chinky’ was offensive. His friend’s conclusion? That he, growing up in Singapore as part of the ethnic Chinese majority, doesn’t find it offensive, but he can see why some people do. And that El Cid should leave him alone to work.

    65. Kismet Hardy — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:14 PM  

      Buy cheap cider from the paki shop, get a meal deal from the chinky, buy crack from the rasta rudebwoy, then head off to a traveller’s rave at the gyppo’s field. Ah those was the days before this censorship phenomenon that I like to call ‘political correctness gone mad’

    66. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:16 PM  

      Rumbold

      Thanks for explaining.

      I can’t read long posts either on blogs - something about leaving univerisity a long time ago.

      But the point about Singapore is that it doesn’t have the same history of racism as the UK.

      The ethnic Chinese are the dominant/elite group there. An Asian person calling another Asian person , with all things being equal, isn’t likely to cause offense, language takes the power of offense if you can then also degrade the particular group and use language to reinforce their disadvantage. Clearly that won’t be the case in Sing with the Chinese as they are the majority.

      It’s the same as calling a white person a honkey in the UK - while offensive it doesn’t quite offend in the same way.

      I’ve seen more white people feel offended if anyone insunates that they are racist - than when you use the word honkey.

    67. Kismet Hardy — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:16 PM  

      PS. I’ve got nothing against bigots. I mean, some of my best friends are bigots…

    68. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:18 PM  

      Nicely put.

    69. Kismet Hardy — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:22 PM  

      Yes, but back then it was used in an affectionate way. I’m told by my cousins that back in the day they had this fun sounding thing called paki bashing which I assume was a sort of a bash thrown in honour of immigrants here. Oh how I wish I was here in this country in the 70s. I never owned a pair of bellbottoms you see, even though I’m bangladeshi, and when I stand around at platforms, no one writes a song in my honour.

    70. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:30 PM  

      Stop whining. I never once used the word “paki” but, blinded by Pavlovian victimhood, you failed to spot that. We need to take the emotion out of these things, otherwise we’re just shouting at each other and none the wiser.

      Probably the weakest reaction on this thread. In addition to that, I find being referred to as a “victim” more offensive than any racist term you throw at me. Its a debate stopper and immediately puts the person issuing the charge on a self-imposed position as non-victim.

      You’re defending the use of the term “chinky” as long as the intention is good and its all cheerfull-chappy salt of the earth stuff, anyway. Fine, as long as you recognise that.

      Yet you recoil angrily at the use of the term “wop” and “dago”, both in your exchange with me on this thread and on that transcription with your Chinese friend.

      I’m not arguing against the use of racist terms. All I’m saying is that they ought to be equal-opportunity terms. You seem to be resisting that.

    71. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:35 PM  

      “Yet you recoil angrily at the use of the term “wop” and “dago”, both in your exchange with me on this thread and on that transcription with your Chinese friend.”

      Where der-brain?

    72. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 2:36 PM  

      Kismet
      Why don’t you read what’s been said first eh, sweetie?

    73. Kismet Hardy — on 14th October, 2008 at 3:35 PM  

      I don’t read silly. I just burn.

      No, of course I don’t know what I mean.

      Wop comes from With Out Permission. I know that. A spic pal of mine told me

      By the way, is it okay to call me a Bangy? You can throw me off a cliff and call it Bangy Jumping

    74. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:05 PM  

      “Where do Bangladeshis calling black people bandoor manoosh and Jamaicans calling Asians cooly man fit into this?

      I think thereis also a racist element to Ghora Lhok”

      Ghora is a description. Lhok means people. If spoken with bad intent, I imagine it’s offensive, as are the incomprehensible words of my 3 year old nephew when he wants to have a go at me and hasn’t learnt any swear words yet.

      But dandoor manoosh and coolie is disgraceful. If you are making the point that Bangladeshis can be racist, yes, they can. It is unacceptable. But we know Bangladeshis (and other South Asians/East Asians) will quite happily burn their skins white - that’s how racist we can be. That’s the power of racism - it’s ability to pervade everything - so much that a mother will think her child is less beautiful because she is dark.

      But I imagine you know this already.

    75. Kismet Hardy — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:24 PM  

      Gora is a description suggesting nothing more than white person. So therefore blacky is okay, is it?

      As a Bangladeshi I can vouch Bengalis are the most racist breed I know

    76. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:37 PM  

      Black is a description.. blacky is an interprtation with bad intent, so not OK.

      Even words that aren’t offensive when meant with malice can become offensive.

    77. billaricaydickey — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:38 PM  

      Halima Ji,

      Of course any word or phrase that is intended to denegrate other people in any way is unacceptable but we in a world where it goes on.

      El Cid, Tu nombre es similado al el de un caballero muy famoso Espanol en le lucha contra los Morros en el siglo tercera.

      Sorry if you can’t read Spanish. Chav comes from the Gypo or Pikey word for a child or young male person. I was doing a bit of business with them today and they find the whole thing hilarious.

      Whydo you lot stray from the essentials so quickly? The well known cvommentator Darcus Howe regularly refered to Asians as coolies, so there!

    78. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:40 PM  

      Sorry if you can’t write Spanish, you mean.

    79. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:42 PM  

      Well Darcus might have his opinions, I have mine!

      Why stray so quickly? Short attention span.

      Ji? That’s a term of respect in Nepal - why thank you.

    80. justforfun — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:48 PM  

      El Cid - For a travelling business man like yourself - this is useful to know - asking for a ‘mama bar’ in Madras might lead you to a brothel :-) .

      justforfun

    81. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 4:50 PM  

      justforfun

      u da man .
      :-) .

    82. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:00 PM  

      At least you made an effort to read the conversation. I’ll bear the info in mind when I become a travelling businessman. I’m actually the British Ambassador in Beijing.

    83. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:13 PM  
    84. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:17 PM  

      El Cid

      I don’t speak or understand English ..

      let alone Spanish.

    85. El Cid — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:21 PM  

      But I digress…
      At the end of the day, I think Jai and my Chinese colleague scored best in putting me off the term chinky, even for takeaways. I’ll think about it.
      Some of you — namely Halima and Sid — need to reflect on your dumb arse shooting from the hip and cheap smearing tactics.

    86. halima — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:22 PM  

      But am open to education .

      “Some of you — namely Halima and Sid — need to reflect on your dumb arse shooting from the hip and cheap smearing tactics.”

      OK. But wasn’t meant to be cheap or smearing. I am dead serious in my approach to anti-racism.

    87. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:31 PM  

      Hak Gwai/Ha yin is what some Chinese people call a black person, Bak Gwai for white, and ah cha denotes an Indian.

      That’s Cantonese, and these terms are pretty common among the Chinese in Hong Kong to refer to black, white and Indians. Hak Gwai = “Black demon”, “Pak Gwai” = White demon. “Ah Cha” means barbecued.

      Agreed. And it’s not rocket science; the word “chinky” is derived from “chink”, which is a derogatory word for Chinese people. Of course it’s bloody racist.

      If that’s the case, then the term “chink” comes from “chinese” which is not offensive. The term “paki” derives from “Pakistani” which is not offensive.

      My point is that words can only be offensive if enough people agree on its value, not because they derive from other words: chink and chinky have different meanings and are different words. On the other hand, “paki” is deemed offensive, so “paki shop”, “paki food” are obviously offensive, as much as “chink shop” and “chink food”.

    88. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 5:46 PM  

      Some of you — namely Halima and Sid — need to reflect on your dumb arse shooting from the hip and cheap smearing tactics.

      Man, you are so far up your own.

    89. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 6:07 PM  

      Did anyone in the “OMG! It’s racist!” crowd read the bulletin from the Broadcasting Standards Comission from Rumbold’s link in #30? It is an independent organisation that is supposed to investigate complaints of racism, sexism, violence in the media.

      There is one incidence about “chinky” in page 19 in regards to a BBC sitcom.

      The Complaint

      A viewer complained about a racist remark, referring to “the local Chinky”.

      The Broadcaster’s statement
      The BBC said that the use of the term “Chinky” might
      normally be expected to relate to its alleged derogatory application to a person of Chinese origin but that was far from being the way it was used in this programme. A character was describing where he had
      obtained a Christening spoon for his new Goddaughter -
      from the local Chinese restaurant. Both the usage and the act were typical of this plain-speaking and earthy supporting character. The broadcaster went on to say
      that the term was used with a commercial rather than
      personal connotation.

      The Commission’s Finding
      A Standards Panel watched the programme. It took
      the view that the context in which the term “Chinky”
      was used robbed it of any potential racist connotation.
      The complaint was not upheld.


      Someone needs to tell the BNP to stop bitching about the biased media, as the BBC is now propagating blatant racism with the help of the Broadcasting Standards Commission.

      (By the way, I am not defending the use of the term “chinky” - I have never used it. But the arguments presented by the “OMG! Of course it’s racist!” crowd do not seem very convincing… not convincing for people who seem 100% certain of that).

    90. Sid — on 14th October, 2008 at 6:40 PM  

      Someone needs to tell the BNP to stop bitching about the biased media, as the BBC is now propagating blatant racism with the help of the Broadcasting Standards Commission.

      That charge has already been about the brilliant “Jerry Springer the Opera” by the “OMG it’s blasphemous” crowd.

    91. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 6:43 PM  

      I feel that a lot of people here are trivialising “racism”. Words are not racist, people are. Intent is paramount. People need to grow up and not become too sensitive with terms. Let’s focus on acts of racism: discrimination, violence and social inequality. Not if a racist sounding name is used, specially when it comes to food, and not with the intent to humiliate and diminish people.

      I also have to say, I am proud to be a Paki, because that’s the word associated to South Asians, and I am proud of my heritage. I am also proud to be a sand nigger (well I am dark and I stem from a state in India blessed with beaches :) ). Big freaking deal.

    92. Katy Newton — on 14th October, 2008 at 6:51 PM  

      I fail to see how it’s easier to say “the Paki” than “the newsagent’s” or “the sweet shop” or “the corner shop”, and I share Sid’s confusion about the virtues of “chinky” versus the unacceptability of “dago”.

      Ravi, the word “Paki” is not a word that Asians woke up and decided to label racist. It’s a word that ignorant English people used to belittle them. That’s why it’s offensive - because it was intended to be derogatory - and that’s why I don’t use the term Paki even if some people have decided that it isn’t racist anymore. Or “chinky”, or “dago” for that matter. Perhaps you’re able to distinguish between situations in which it is acceptable and situations in which it isn’t, but none of my Asian friends would like me using the term and when I hear people using it I say something about it.

      I wouldn’t use any of these terms. But what can I say? I try not to use terms that are or are derived from racist epithets. It’s part of my general policy of not trying to offend people. How controversial of me! If there are people who don’t find them offensive, that’s great. But don’t sneer at me because I choose not to use them.

    93. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 7:00 PM  

      Are words offensive because a particular group finds them offensive? It shouldn’t be the case, but it probably is

      I remember not long ago, reading in one of those mainstream British Asian publications, a report on how racist the Simpsons are because of Apu, followed by commentary of several Indians (most older) claiming they felt ridiculed whenever Apu spoke with that accent, or was generally portrayed. I was pleasantly surprised with Rohin’s article “Much Apu About Nothing”, which I understand won an award for PP.

      Pretty much makes the point that intent is paramount in determining what is racist, and what isn’t. I tend to give less importance to what a particular group thinks, as you will always find a group of eternal offended people in any freaking context.

    94. Refresh — on 14th October, 2008 at 7:23 PM  

      I think we reached an understanding back in #85

      ‘At the end of the day, I think Jai and my Chinese colleague scored best in putting me off the term chinky, even for takeaways.’

      That’s good enough for me.

    95. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 7:31 PM  

      But don’t sneer at me because I choose not to use them.

      You will have to tell me how you managed to interpret that I am sneering at anyone for *not* using terms like “Paki”. My point is that in this day and age, Asians have a considerable better standing in Britain as opposed to thirty years ago. And it is time that we (Asians) make the term as inoffensive as brown. If ignorant low-class people call you us “pakis”, we probably should say “Yes, so what is your point?”, rather than burning effigies. Trivialising the word ensures that it will disappear as a derogatory term in the next generation. I am not saying people like you and me should use it. I am saying that Asians should not give a toss if someone says it - as in, we are so much better than you, so I laugh at your pathetic attempts to diminish me with a 4 letter word.

    96. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 8:45 PM  

      Pretty much makes the point that intent is paramount in determining what is racist, and what isn’t.

      I agree completely that (in any given situation in life) intent is important and can frequently be a mitigating factor, but impact is also important. After all, ogling that hot girl you’re friends with at work because you think she looks nice today ain’t gonna go down too well if she decides you’re making her feel uncomfortable and indeed that she feels offended by you checking her out. Even if your intent isn’t malicious and admiring her doesn’t mean you’re gonna ambush her outside the front door after work. Innit.

      Let’s focus on acts of racism: discrimination,

      Calling someone a Paki IS an act of racism and discrimination.

      I also have to say, I am proud to be a Paki, because that’s the word associated to South Asians, and I am proud of my heritage.

      The problem is that the term “Paki” doesn’t refer to everything positive about our South Asian heritage which we may be proud of. When a person calls an Asian a Paki, what they’re referring to is (in their view) a conquered “native” originating in the subcontinent, assumed to be culturally backward, expected (even demanded) to be subservient, subordinate and unthreatening, not expected to retaliate even under provocation (and not to have the right to do so), not deserving of the basic human respect and empathy that they may afford to a white person, and intrinsically inferior in every way to any white person, regardless of how “ignorant and low-class” the latter may be.

    97. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 8:48 PM  

      My point is that in this day and age, Asians have a considerable better standing in Britain as opposed to thirty years ago.

      Attitudes improved to some extent because large numbers of Asians refused to take any racist crap, not because they turned a deaf ear/blind eye to the abuse and bigotry in the hope that the racists would get bored or take the hint and cut it out. Sometimes, bullies only stop bullying when someone stands up to them, otherwise (in their minds) they’ve just found a nice amenable punching bag.

      To some degree matters have slid backwards post-9/11 and post-7/7, and unfortunately there are still plenty of white British people (particularly amongst the 40+ generation, in my own experience anyway, to a lesser extent along with younger white Brits who agree with those attitudes) who have the same bigotted, ignorant and hostile mentality towards us that was so widespread 30 years ago.

      If ignorant low-class people call you us “pakis”, we probably should say “Yes, so what is your point?”,

      Remember what I said above about what the racists mean when they call you a “Paki”. They’re not just pointing out the fact that you’re Asian, or using it as another word for Asian. There’s a whole heap of baggage and implications behind it.

      However…..

      as in, we are so much better than you, so I laugh at your pathetic attempts to diminish me with a 4 letter word.

      …..I agree that ridiculing the bigot or retaliating with a suitably withering retort can sometimes be a good way to take the wind out of their sails. It depends on what works.

      If you are saintly enough to ignore the insults or you can deflect the abuse without letting it bother you too much, then I applaud that. It takes a tremendous amount of maturity, self-control and resilience to do that.

      However, such a Gandhian response isn’t always effective, and (apologies to everyone in advance for my language) the sneering, smirking, surly rednecked motherf*cker isn’t necessarily going to change his ways unless he is terrified about what you’ll do to him (physically, emotionally, legally, or — if this occurs in the workplace — professionally) in response.

    98. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 8:54 PM  

      Anyway…..

      I think we reached an understanding back in #85

      ‘At the end of the day, I think Jai and my Chinese colleague scored best in putting me off the term chinky, even for takeaways.’

      That’s good enough for me.

      Agreed. That’s good enough for me too. El Cid gets a thumbs-up from me.

      I would have given him two thumbs-up, but on this occasion he didn’t find a way to sneak in a reference to Prince, you see ;)

    99. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:13 PM  

      I agree completely that (in any given situation in life) intent is important and can frequently be a mitigating factor, but impact is also important.

      No doubt, but it always comes back to intent. In your example, if she becomes uncomfortable with his eyes, no doubt she will let him know. And then, if he continues with that behaviour, his intent becomes much less innocent, and could be construed as sexual harassment.

      Calling someone a Paki IS an act of racism and discrimination.

      I guess we have different definitions for “racial discrimination”. To me, it refers to someone being put in a clear disadvantaged position just because of this person’s ethnicity. As in not being promoted, being subject to harsher punishment by a court of justice, being subject to different rules in the workplace, and so on. I cannot be a victim of “racial discrimination” just because some loser calls me a “Paki”, specially if my socio-economic standing (and my self-esteem) are much higher than his.

      However, such a Gandhian response isn’t always effective, and (apologies to everyone in advance for my language) the sneering, smirking, surly rednecked motherf*cker isn’t necessarily going to change his ways unless he is terrified about what you’ll do to him (physically, emotionally, legally, or — if this occurs in the workplace — professionally) in response.

      I agree that the level of action differs from case to case. Surely being subject to insults with the intent to humiliate is totally unacceptable and nobody should endure that. On the other hand, I think this “chinky” story is rather silly, and rather trivialises modern day racism.

    100. Suburban Tory — on 14th October, 2008 at 10:42 PM  

      Jai

      Do you consider the term “Redneck” to be a racial slur?

      From Wikipedia

      prejudiced term applied to rural White Americans, especially those of the Southern United States and the Western United States; the term is thought to come either from the sunburned necks of farm laborers, or from the belief that they had some American Indian ancestry (cf. redskin).

      Pot and kettle spring to mind.

    101. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:14 PM  

      Ravi,

      I guess we have different definitions for “racial discrimination”.

      Looks like it, buddy.

      I cannot be a victim of “racial discrimination” just because some loser calls me a “Paki”,

      I think that if the loser calls you a Paki and thereby treats you differently (in a negative way) to everyone else who is not Asian, whom he treats comparatively better, than he is indeed being “discriminatory” due to racial reasons.

      But like you said, we obviously have different definitions. As a point of comparison, I remember some commenters over on Sepia Mutiny a while ago denying that (South) Asians could be racist towards white people as apparently one has to be in some kind of position of socio-economic power with the ability to act on that bigotry in order to be a genuine racist; so maybe you have a more American interpretation — or at least one that may be more common amongst Americans.

    102. Jai — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:20 PM  

      Suburban Tory,

      Do you consider the term “Redneck” to be a racial slur?

      No. It’s patently obvious that I’m using the term simply to refer to white Brits who are racist, and am not referring to “rural white Americans in the Western and Southern United States”. Regardless of whatever the formal definition of the word may be according to Wikipedia.

      Pot and kettle spring to mind.

      Good for you.

    103. douglas clark — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:32 PM  

      Suburban Tory,

      Redneck can hardly be said to be a racist slur as it, by definition, refers to a sub group of whiteys who are fellow travellers for the KKK. Oh, and NASCAR.

      http://www.fortogden.com/foredneck.html

      Petrolheads the lot of them.

      Suburban Tory, it is OK to be prejudiced. If I met a hate filled stranger who advocated lynching, just for an example, mind, I’d run a mile. I wouldn’t stop to debate or discuss anything with the moron.

      Call that prejudice if you will. I call it as common sense.

      Anyway, you have been treated pretty well on this site.

      Apart from by me, who tries to call bullshit when I see it.

      So what are you about? I like to think most of the folk that post here are my friends. You, on the other hand, seem to see them as what? Grist for a mill, or something?

      Explain why I shouldn’t just call you a troll.

    104. Ravi Naik — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:50 PM  

      I think that if the loser calls you a Paki and thereby treats you differently (in a negative way) to everyone else who is not Asian, whom he treats comparatively better, than he is indeed being “discriminatory” due to racial reasons.

      So basically a loser does not like me for a particular reason. Why should I be upset that someone I don’t know or someone I don’t respect thinks of me?

      But like you said, we obviously have different definitions. As a point of comparison, I remember some commenters over on Sepia Mutiny a while ago denying that (South) Asians could be racist towards white people as apparently one has to be in some kind of position of socio-economic power with the ability to act on that bigotry in order to be a genuine racist; so maybe you have a more American interpretation…

      Jai, there are two distinct issues here. There is no doubt that everyone - regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, can be rabidly racist against people of other groups. I certainly don’t buy this idea that only white people can be racist.

      But my definition of “racial discrimination” is more pragmatic than idealistic. If my neighbour does not want to talk with me because I am Asian, that’s not racial discrimination to me because I don’t lose anything by not talking with a racist. Alternatively, if I don’t get promoted because my boss doesn’t like Asians, that’s racial discrimination. And I believe we should fight against the latter, not ensuring that my neighbour only dislikes me because I make too much noise.

    105. Suburban Tory — on 14th October, 2008 at 11:53 PM  

      Jai

      No. It’s patently obvious that I’m using the term simply to refer to white Brits who are racist, and am not referring to “rural white Americans in the Western and Southern United States”.

      Sorry, it’s not clear as in comments 28 & 54 you use the term to describe both Brits and Americans.

      …. the attitudes the local rednecks have towards us — has some overlap with the way black people are viewed and treated by rednecks in the US.

      ….the parallels (in some ways) between the history of Asians and white Brits and the history of black Americans and white Americans, the colonial dynamics involved in both, and the modern-day legacies of those events resulting in automatic assumptions of inherent superiority amongst rednecks in both countries towards those deemed historically “conquered”…..

      People who try to police other peoples language should be extra careful with their own.

      The term is loaded with both race and class prejudice and should be avoided.

    106. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 12:31 AM  

      Suburban Tory,

      The term is loaded with both race and class prejudice and should be avoided.

      Not really.

      It is a term to describe petrolheads with an IQ equivalent to that of an amoeba. What is wrong with that? It is an abbreviation for the disgust I, and many others have for unreconstructed racists. It is obviously derogatory, and rightly so. Am I supposed to praise them, or something? Rednecks, the fun loving face of the KKK. Something like that?

      Get a grip.

    107. Suburban Tory — on 15th October, 2008 at 12:33 AM  

      Sorry, Dougie I didn’t realise that Pickled Politics was a private club - do I have to apply for membership? If so, will you sponsor me?

      So what are you about?

      I’m just trying to engage with people who have different views than my own. What’s wrong with that? You might try it sometime. It’s called debate. Please try and keep it civil.

      Your attitude to “rednecks” may explain the reason the Democrats lost the South - “University Educated Enlightened White Liberals” think that white working class people are all ignorant, racist morons, just itching for a lynching or two. No wonder they voted for Reagan and Bush.

      To think that the “Left” used to stand up for the working class. Progress indeed.

      Oh, and “whitey” - racial slur.

    108. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 12:59 AM  

      Suburban Tory,

      No, you don’t need to be sponsored, and if you did, you wouldn’t be getting my vote.

      Please try and keep it civil.

      Believe me, this is my civil side.

      You are not, sir, engaging, you are trolling. So, no, I am not playing your game. “Redneck” accurately defines a certain group of Americans who would be beyond the pale in the UK.

      What would they do here, without their guns, without the respect that they feel they are owed? It is bullshit. Even most Tories have moved beyond that, but I suppose there are still curtain twitchers around. In the suburbs, perhaps.

      And you can cry me a river for writing you off. See if I care.

      Arseholes, the lot of you.

    109. Ravi Naik — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:15 AM  

      Your attitude to “rednecks” may explain the reason the Democrats lost the South - “University Educated Enlightened White Liberals” think that white working class people are all ignorant, racist morons, just itching for a lynching or two.

      Actually, it is well documented why the Democrats lost the South. And ironically (and not surprisingly), it was because Southerners were chronically racist and backed Jim Crow laws. And the Democrats decided to back the civil rights movement 60 years ago.

    110. Suburban Tory — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:17 AM  

      Charming as usual Dougie.

      Did Deliverance scare you when you were little?

    111. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:50 AM  

      Suburban Tory,

      Did Deliverance scare you when you were little?

      Well, no. I think you have no idea what Deliverance is all about. Try listening to all of this without putting your foot in your mouth:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8&feature=related

      Well, did you manage it? Did you actually listen from start to finish? That is not about hatin’, that is about mutual respect.

      Something you and Palin don’t have a handle on.

      Just sayin’.

      You, it seems, would ally yourself with Rednecks that Rednecks would themselves find beyond reason. But, that is what I’d expect of a certain kind of curtain twitching tory boy.

    112. BenSix — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:16 AM  

      Your attitude to “rednecks” may explain the reason the Democrats lost the South - “University Educated Enlightened White Liberals” think that white working class people are all ignorant, racist morons, just itching for a lynching or two.

      Goodness, I never guessed that Douglas was so influential.

      “University Educated Enlightened White Liberals” sounds a bit clumsy, though. “Bruschetta Munching Elitists” is a better one.

      Anyway, when did the Right start caring about the American working class? Was it, I wonder, when someone gifted Palin with the “outsider” meme?

      Ben

    113. Suburban Tory — on 15th October, 2008 at 4:36 AM  

      Dougie

      I was thinking more of this scene.

      Not a lot of mutual respect going on there.

      Back to my original point. I find it amusing that Sunny writes a post condemning racism at another site only for the thread to descend into a catalogue of anti-white racial slurs. You probably don’t.

      And guess what black people like watching stock cars going round and round and round an oval track too.

      With NASCAR’s ethnic fan base consistently growing over the last seven years, NASCAR is the fastest-growing sport among African-Americans and Hispanics, according to independent research. Approximately 25 percent of NASCAR fans today are people of color, according to an ESPN/Chilton poll (2002). African American fans have increased 18 percent — approximately 2 million people — since 1995. Hispanic fans have increased 38 percent — approximately 3 million people — since 1996.

      Me. I prefer cricket.

      P.S. Try showing some of that “respect” that you’re talking about to the millions of hard working “Scotch-Irish” Americans that you seem to regard as less than human.

    114. John Lilburne — on 15th October, 2008 at 6:21 AM  

      @ Katy in comment 92

      I fail to see how it’s easier to say “the Paki” than “the newsagent’s” or “the sweet shop” or “the corner shop”

      If that is a reference to my comment no.12 then you have failed to see something else; my point was that it means to me so much more than just a shop.

      the word “Paki” is not a word that Asians woke up and decided to label racist. It’s a word that ignorant English people used to belittle them. That’s why it’s offensive - because it was intended to be derogatory

      The Pakistani cricket team is known as “The Pakis” - maybe ask them if it’s racist. And how about this quote from the Indian Times site:

      So, when these countries meet on the cricket pitch an earth-shattering excitement is generated. But it is not the game that gets you sitting on the edge of your seat. It’s the desire to put it across the Pakis.

      Is that racist or not? You choose.

      I can’t recall who said it, it may have been Lear, but the line “words mean what I intend them to mean except when they don’t” sums it up for me. It’s all about context and intent.

    115. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 7:35 AM  

      Suburban Tory,

      I was thinking more of this scene.

      Yeah, you probably were. Anyway, there is some sort of revenge and redemption just after that. Or did that message pass you by too? I expect it did. Deliverance is a great movie, although you and I appear to have taken completely contrary messages from it. Personally I found the male on male rape a mcguffin for what followed. Most folk would see it as disgusting, which, I think, was the point. It made the bad guys really evil. The consequence of them being taken out, and the rather obvious concern when it seemed that the guys in the white hats had taken out the wrong bloke, until they discovered he’d dentures, makes a fundamentally important moral point that you obviously missed.

      Still and all, the most important scene for you was the ’squeel like a pig’ scene. Speaks volumes, so it does.

      I find it amusing that Sunny writes a post condemning racism at another site only for the thread to descend into a catalogue of anti-white racial slurs. You probably don’t.

      Eh! It is certainly not the case here!

      And you, sir, are the one playing with fire, not me.

      Anyway, on NASCAR, they are attempting to poison more minds into their insane petrolheadedness. That is just sick. Probably evil, and a lot to do with marketing. I’d imagine a sane soul would maybe go once. I went to a Grand Prix once. It is not an experience I’d ever, voluntarily, repeat.

      Me, I prefer football. Though I can see the point of cricket, I cannot extend that to NASCAR.

      Your PS doesn’t make a lot of sense. Last time I looked at my ancestry, which I don’t give a fig about, I probably am Scottish - Irish. So, your idea that I think the Scotch-Irish are ‘less than human’ has to apply to me too. Surprisingly enough, I’m a tad uncomfortable with that.

      The ingrained nature of your racism is probably encapsulated right there, by the way. Scotch is a drink not a nationality.

      A suggestion for you. Try looking to the future rather than the past. It just drags you down.

      Me? I’m voting SNP, just ’cause I can. You can get odds of 100 to 1 on a Tory winning the Glenrothes by election. Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is?

      Why do I think Suburban Tory is a synonym for idiot? It is a conundrum, that’s for sure.

    116. Suburban Tory — on 15th October, 2008 at 8:44 AM  

      Doug

      I’m sorry it was the only explanation I could think of for your racist outburst. But thanks for the film review. Maybe you just didn’t like the Dukes of Hazzard.

      Please explain how I am the racist for calling you out on your bigotry?

      I guess some of those “Chinks” must be evil racists when they attend the Chinese Grand Prix. What’s with the anti-petrolhead thing - all those hours waiting in line for Jeremy Clarkson’s autograph - and he just walked past?

      Learn about the Scotch-Irish here. You’re not nearly as smart as you think you are.

      Are you a parody?

    117. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 10:36 AM  

      I am

    118. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 10:40 AM  

      BenSix:

      ‘Anyway, when did the Right start caring about the American working class?’

      The term ‘white trailer trash’ is a term from the Republican south for poor white working class. They have used the white working class to keep them in their place. Which is just as criminal as what they’ve done to african americans.

      Inadvertently, Sub-Tory makes a valid point. Who will champion their cause and unite them with the rest of america?

      As for Redneck, I see that as an american terminology for bigotted thugs who too are kept in the dark by Palin Republicans. That said, I am not at all happy about its origin, initially it was intended to be racist towards native americans.

    119. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 10:45 AM  

      John,

      Upthread you mentioned ‘murdering muslims’ - is this now standard fare?

      I recall it used to be ‘dirty arab’ - have you come across it lately?

    120. Jai — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:01 AM  

      Douglas, thank you for your interventions during my absence.

      Extended tangents attacking usage of the term “redneck” are unnecessary at best (if the misunderstanding is genuine) and a disingenuous attempt at deflecting attention from the main focus of the discussion at worst (if this is deliberate and there has been no actual misunderstanding).

      “Rednecks” is an informal slang term used by some younger Asians in the UK to refer to racist white British people. It doesn’t refer specifically to the “official” definition in America, and is not related to class.

      The latter was also clarified higher up this thread by myself in the last sentence of the second paragraph in #54.

      Furthermore, there is no underlying malicious “racial” motivation behind the usage of the term when referring specifically to white people who are racist, rather than white people en masse.

      All of the above are no doubt clear to anyone who has read this thread objectively and in its proper context, along with others where I may have used the term in passing.

      If this is taken on-board, then fine. If not, then that’s unfortunate, but I see no need for any of us to further waste our time by continuing to attempt to clarify the matter.

      However, I would of course be happy to use the more politically-correct term “racist Nazi sonofabitch” to refer to BNP-types and people with a similarly bigotted mindset towards Asians and other non-white groups, if Suburban Tory would prefer.

      Let’s move on.

    121. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:03 AM  

      Ooh I know who is ‘murdering muslims’. Bush

    122. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:05 AM  

      Katy, the dago thing is a red herring. Read the thread properly.

      Up my arse? You’re just not used to getting it back with double the interest mate.

      P.S.
      I don’t mind being called dago among friends. It’s all about intent. Along with Ravi and my Chinese colleague, I’m relaxed about these things.

    123. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:09 AM  

      El Cid, do you mind if I object to you being called ‘dago’?

    124. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:11 AM  

      Feel free

    125. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:13 AM  

      As the great thinkers Boyzone once said (in a treatise also touched upon by the lesser known Beegees):

      “It’s only words…”

      Although the left-field philosophers Extreme argued:

      “More than words is all you have to do to make it real”

      Which makes FR David’s hypothesis all the more tragic:

      “Words don’t come easy to me”

      So in conclusion, we must abide by Cameo’s libertarian, albeit callow, solution:

      “Word up”

      And should anyone take you up on this, simply heed the wisdom of the feminist intellectual Pink:

      “Exactly what I don’t need
      Twisting my words so easily”

      I hope this helps you appreciate the concept that words don’t hurt but baseball bats and bombs do

      eyethangyou

    126. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:14 AM  

      I also don’t mind being called “guirri” and “pirata” endlessly whenever i am in Spain (although I object to hijo de la Gran Bretana, which is a euphemism for something else. Even my mum has jokily called me that, though I’m not sure she has thought it through).

    127. Jai — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:15 AM  

      John Lilburne,

      re: #114

      I’ll make it clear for you. Irrespective of the intent, meaning and context of the term “Paki” in the subcontinent or other parts of the world, in the UK it is the equivalent of “n*gger” for Asians and has exactly the same impact.

      Therefore, the term is grossly racist and offensive in the context of British society and culture. If you really have no racial prejudice towards Asians and genuinely give a damn about the sensitivities of people from other ethnic groups, I suggest you try to understand that for Asians, you using the term “Paki shop” for Asian-owned establishments is no different to using the term “N*gger shop” for establishments owned by black people, irrespective of your supposed actual intent.

      Katy’s points on the subject are accurate and well-made.

    128. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:24 AM  

      Is it worth pointing out that in Pakistan, the word Paki isn’t offensive?

      http://www.paki.com

      The same applies to many living here. We’ve all been mugged, beaten and left outside the Bull Ring with our cock painted green and white with a crescent tattooed onto the japseye by brummie gangs that abducted us at melas in their mum’s subaru spouting Pak Power, haven’t we?

    129. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:25 AM  

      And should I throw away my copy of the Joseph Conrad classic The Nigger of Narcissus?

    130. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:31 AM  

      And how about during dinner parties when one inevitably moves onto the topic of pearl harbour, should I be now compelled to stop telling the crowd pleasing ‘there’s a nip in the air’ joke?

    131. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:37 AM  

      And how unfortunate would it be if I couldn’t casually make the observation to my Spanish friends over a light tapas of omlettes, squidgy sausage and a crisp bottle of ribera del duero

      “España era maravillosa y rara y todos comimos paela y maravillamos en Dali y el estilo de chioroscuro de Velazquez. ¿Pero entonces las personas negras vinieron y robaron cosas y los musulmanes ponen bombas en nuestros trenes, hicieron no ellos?”

    132. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:51 AM  

      Nice try Kizzie

    133. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 11:55 AM  

      Gracias por darme atención, El Cid. Mi trabajo aquí es hecho

    134. soru — on 15th October, 2008 at 12:08 PM  

      “Redneck” accurately defines a certain group of Americans who would be beyond the pale in the UK.

      That needs to be respected. If you actually do feel, and, for whatever historicali or political reasons, feel justified in feeling, racial/ethnic/nationalist hatred towards some group, you should use appropriate language to convey that hatred or disdain.

      What you likely want to avoid doing is accidentally giving the impression you feel that way when you don’t. You probably don’t literally hate and despise your friends, acquaintances or even random people you do business with, and would be dismayed if you said something that make them think you did. So it tends to be smart to avoid accidentally misusing language that gets taken the wrong way, something that might mean something different to an older or younger generation.

      This goes treble if you are in politics and want some of them to vote for you, or just read your politics blog.

      Loud complaints that other people are not moderating their language are sometimes a sign that the pressure of being polite in that way is an odious onep.

      There is a difference between someone who doesn’t like pubs, and the designated driver drinking diet coke soberly around a table with drunk people telling drunk jokes. The designated drinker is making a kind of sacrifice for the fun of others.

      It’s always fun to spot people who are transparently the ‘designated non-racist’ of their organisation.

    135. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 12:26 PM  

      Suburban Tory @ 116,

      What bigoted outburst would that be, exactly? If I have been guilty, as charged, with bigotry, please point me to it. I will obviously give consideration to whatever you say.

      Though, I’d be surprised if you can make it stick.

      Still and all, it is you that wants to divide and conquer, isn’t it? On my better days, I see myself as a minority of one. Strictly speaking, I think everyone should adopt that point of view.

      We were discussing Rednecks, which is, at best, a sub-group of whites, perhaps encapsulated in the larger definition, trailer trash. Who, themselves, make up a miniscule percentage of white folk, and have amongst them other folk.

      You are a very sad person, I am sorry to say. I think the Dukes of Hazard was about the worst programme to ever have an extended run. Although Daisy Duke was, indeed, watchable, but for carnal reasons. Which, as far as I could tell, was the only point of the entire series.

      If I am a parody, then you are a troll.

      I never claimed to be smart, I wing it most of the time. It is you that thinks he has the brains. It is a bit like a Turing test. Is the Suburban Tory, who is up his arse with opinions any better than douglas clark who is perhaps not very clever?

      You decide, dear reader.

      Oops, there is an audience for this sort of stuff. Apparently quite a lot of folk read what we have to say to each other. I have always been aware of that. Have you?

      Oh, good god, I’ve just stoked an ego….

    136. Kismet Hardy — on 15th October, 2008 at 12:30 PM  

      Speaking of rednecks, I hope this isn’t true

      http://digg.com/movies/Russell_Crowe_playing_redneck_comedian_Bill_Hicks

    137. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:19 PM  

      soru @ 134,

      I’m much more fun than that.

      Frankly, you haven’t a clue, have you? If I say that Rednecks are extreme, you say it’s my fault?

      If you actually do feel, and, for whatever historical or political reasons, feel justified in feeling, racial/ethnic/nationalist hatred towards some group, you should use appropriate language to convey that hatred or disdain.

      Apart from the pretty obvious fact that I do consider my language appropriate, whatever that means, I’d deny the idea that there is any appropriate language to describe Rednecks, that doesn’t involve swearing. These are the inheritors of Jim Crow, a sort of medieval re-enactment society writ large. Perhaps you are so open minded that your brain has fallen out, but mine hasn’t, just yet.

      Rednecks is a black hole of a definition. It draws in a specific and self identifying group of people. It is indeed a self selecting gravitational field.

      You are only a Redneck if you say you are. And that definition, within the gravitational field of the Redneck hole is entirely up to them. They could be otherwise. They could be Nobel prize winners, or artists, or whatever.

      It’s always fun to spot people who are transparently the ‘designated non-racist’ of their organisation.

      One of the enormous advantages of being retired is not being part of any ‘organisation’. So, what I say is what I think, right, wrong or indifferent.

      Kudos for standing up for the Suburban Tory. He probably needs you on his side………

      I, on the other hand, am an organisation of one.

    138. Sid — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:31 PM  

      Katy, the dago thing is a red herring. Read the thread properly.

      Up my arse? You’re just not used to getting it back with double the interest mate.

      You’re up your own arse because *you’ve* decided the dago thing is a red herring. You’ve asked a question about the useage of chinky and when the responses are not in accordance to the debate you have framed in your own mind, they are “red herrings”.

      Thats not a bad way to debate if you’re the only debatoer setting the issue, the motion and the arguments. Your imaginary conversation with your Chinese friend is case in point. But as you can see, there are real stakeholders and real protaganists in the debate who are not in an imaginary dialogue to prove your point, sorry.

    139. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:33 PM  

      Anyway soru,

      If I described someone as a Tory, or a Labour supporter, or a member of Greenpeace, what would be your gripe? Describing someone as a Redneck is as accurate, or not, as that.

      A response, rather than you retreating into your usual shell, would be useful. I cannot abide folk dropping bombshells and then running away.

    140. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 1:54 PM  

      Silver Spoon Sid,
      You’re the effing fake here.

      Your desperation knows no bounds.

      First you smear by accusing me of saying something I didn’t say in #29, and then you invent a position I am supposed to have adopted in #70.

      Some people call it controlling the narrative, but I call it being a cunt.

      Now your tactic is to say that I made that conversation up with my Chinese colleague. Nice one. Well short of asking my colleague to log on, I can’t prove otherwise. And even if he did, that wouldn’t prove anything either. In fact, for all we know, you might be the dago and I might be the paki.

      So how can we prove this. Any ideas Sid?

    141. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:06 PM  

      Sid, if you are not here to persuade why are you here?

      I believe you owe El Cid an apology. How can you question his integrity on a dialogue he was kind enough to share with us? A dialogue which he found persuasive?

      That said, neither of you seem to want to let the ‘issue’ rest.

      Move on.

    142. Shamit — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:15 PM  

      While I applaud Ravi’s attitude on live and let live - I am not that magnanimous.

      I think Jai got it spot on and anyone who thinks the word Paki is anything else but a derogatory racist remark in the UK needs to get their head examined.

      On using Wikipedia as a reference to Redneck — gee whiz — since when is that comparable to the N word or Paki. And, I think Jai has eloquently explained the use of the word within the context of how Brit-Asians use it to define racist bigots. So all those who have been trying to sanctimonious towards Jai and Douglas — THEY MEANT RACIST BIGOTS PEOPLE. Get over it. So unless you are a racist it should not really offend you.

      I also find the word Chinky derogatory as well. I think its inappropriate and I know some friends of mine would punch someone if they heard the word. I would advise anyone who thinks of using the word not to use it in front of a Brit-Chinese bloke. You just might get punched or kicked.

      I for sure would be teaching my toddler son that if anyone calls him a Paki - exactly what he should be doing and nothing pleasant I can assure you.

      And, I think someone needs to close this thread because its going in circles and its not really adding much value to the conversation on this site. And some posts are just vocal diarrhoea while having cerebral constipation at the same time.

      So can we move on please???

    143. Sid — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:25 PM  

      Sid, if you are not here to persuade why are you here?

      Very simple. I had one single question in this whole dialogue and rather than engagement, all I got was an earful of abuse. But thats classic El-Cid for you - why pore over the difficult bits when a mouthing abuse at the next guy wil do.

      I’ve had enough of his aggressive stupidity, so there you go, Refresh - he’s all yours.

    144. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:25 PM  

      There are some valuable points that we need to draw out.

      For me ethnic slurs are like geological strata defining politics of their day. They all have a time and place.

      For progressives its a challenge to resist other’s attempts to lay another layer to mark current prejudices and own the narrative.

    145. Ravi Naik — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:27 PM  

      Now your tactic is to say that I made that conversation up with my Chinese colleague. Nice one…So how can we prove this. Any ideas Sid?

      Well, why go for all the trouble of having to prove things, when you can just go on and say it? Consider this post of his. Sid makes this assertion: “The results of this hate campaign [Obsession DVD] has already resulted in an attack with pepper gas at a Mosque school in Dayton, Ohio. A number of children have been hospitalised.” It is remarkable because Sid seemed to know what happened even though the investigation was still under way. And then, once the investigation was over and concluded that it was a 10 year old boy with no apparent hate reason… Sid didn’t bother to update, correct, or anything of the sort. You think you are helping the cause (and I certainly think the DVD is meant to scare voters, further demonise a religious group, and change the election), but you give people like SubTory a victory for calling you out on that. PP should enforce some journalism ethics when reporting and opining current events.

      I do not know whether El Cid has a Chinese colleague or not, but the dialogue seemed genuine to me and pretty much in tune with what people I know say. Calling him a liar for giving us one perspective from someone with Chinese ancestry, makes you look very small.

    146. halima — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:31 PM  

      Sid, Refresh

      There’s that phrase divide and rule that springs to mind.

      This isn’t one that’s worth splitting intellectual hairs over amongst ourselves.

      We’re discussing the word Paki.

    147. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:32 PM  

      Shamit,

      We should indeed move on from this. It has not been PP finest hour.

    148. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:34 PM  

      Sid, ME aggressive?
      I’ve tempered my debating style over the last year because I realised you get more out of a blog if you let the conversation flow. Have you?

    149. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:45 PM  

      Move on?

      What about my #144, any thoughts?

    150. Sid — on 15th October, 2008 at 2:59 PM  

      For the benefit of #145

      Two factual events:
      1) There was an attack in a Mosque in Dayton. There were children who were sprayed with pepper gas.
      2) There was a virulently anti-Muslim propaganda DVD distributed in Dayton, Ohio and a number of other States.

      That report by Chris Rodda of the Huffington Post did make an unsubstantiated claim that the two events were connected. Yes she did jump the gun by suggesting that the events are connected before they were fully investigated but I did mention that.

      My mistake was to take an HP report and post it verbatim. But I won’t be issuing an update on a journalistic article that I didn’t author. Because:
      1) I didn’t write the original article
      2) A DVD that is designed to incite the worst anti-Muslim sentiment very well may result in real harm to innocents.
      3) The investigation has not proved that the events were unconnected.

      Finally, I thank SubTory for adding comments. Thats what a blog is for. If I thought writing a post that was corrected was handing “people like SubTory a victory”, then I could have turned comments off.

      And thats my last post on this thread.

    151. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 3:02 PM  

      “El Cid, who said I was trying to persuade you.”
      Discuss.

    152. douglas clark — on 15th October, 2008 at 3:04 PM  

      Refresh @ 144 & 149,

      I’d like to think that that sort of stuff was behind us. If I want a Chinese meal from the local Ho Wah, I’d say “let’s get a Chinese”

      It wouldn’t even enter my brain to say “lets get a Chinky”

      So, I think we own the narrative, not the neanderthals. I’d be quite offended if someone thought otherwise. And neanderthals are probably good folk too. How far do we have to take this? There must be a word that is politically correct for the generic category of white idiots. Oh, yeh, Rednecks.

      What did someone say about a circular arguement?

    153. Refresh — on 15th October, 2008 at 3:05 PM  

      El Cid, can you voluntarily make that your last post on the thread?

    154. Ravi Naik — on 15th October, 2008 at 3:19 PM  

      While I applaud Ravi’s attitude on live and let live - I am not that magnanimous.

      No, no, no. It’s not about being magnanimous, or being holier than Gandhi: it’s about disarming racists.

      Nobody can disagree with Jai when he says: “the term ["paki"] is grossly racist and offensive in the context of British society and culture.” - nobody is disputing this fact: that Asians and Whites agreed that the word “paki” is meant to be racist. And here is how it works: a white racist says a 4-letter word, and Asians are supposed to feel deeply offended. Not sure about you, but I feel that we didn’t get a good bargain out of this deal. Get it? That was the mistake of Achilles when during the war, he wore a t-shirt saying: “If you really want to hurt me, try targeting my heels”.

      What I find offensive is this idea that in this day and age, where Asians have a far better standing in Britain than 30 years ago, are far more assimilated, dominate academia, where some even earn on average higher than their white counterparts, where our mainstream society sees open displays of racism as revolting, would feel offended by a jerk - make it any jerk - who utters that 4-letter word.

      When Jai says: “If you really have no racial prejudice towards Asians and genuinely give a damn about the sensitivities of people from other ethnic groups”, he is (rightly or wrongly) characterising a group of people who should be treated like porcelain, that are so sensitive that you should be really careful of every word you say, because it doesn’t really matter your intention, what really matters is how people will interpret it.

      I am not talking specifically about the word “paki”, because that’s easy to avoid. But the anti-racism effort now seems to include over-analysing subtext and going too much on what people feel. This exercise leads to self-censorship, and I think as a society we tend to lose. I certainly would like to read what some say about Christianity and Islam, even though they are considered blasphemous by a few people, and want to censor it. How dare they.

      My point is: let’s be more relaxed, shall we? Let’s focus on the real disease here - discrimination that keeps back people on the basis of how they are born, and not get to riled up about school playground tactics such as “name calling”. It’s time to get rid of this “persecuted minority” mindset.

    155. El Cid — on 15th October, 2008 at 3:21 PM  

      This is my last comment:

      There is a separate and arguably bigger issue here, regardless of whether a fucking word can or can’t be used to describe an inanimate object. How do you engage in political debate? Do you seek to build bridges, foster understanding, persuade, or do you adopt a narrow and zero-tolerant strategy and scream blue murder because the world really is that simple? It’s particularly pertinent in the wider world of race politics.

    Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

    Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2009. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
    With the help of PHP and Wordpress.